Nablus (West Bank), Jan. 7 (AP): Israeli troops carried out a large-scale arrest raid in this West Bank city early on Sunday, surrounding a building and detaining at least four people, Palestinian security officials said.

About 20 army jeeps drove into Nablus before dawn, and the sound of explosions and gunfire could be heard across the city for several hours, residents said.

The Israeli military had no immediate comment.

The Nablus raid came just three days after a similar operation in the West Bank town of Ramallah, in which four Palestinians were killed and more than two dozen wounded.

The operations came despite an understanding between Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas two weeks ago that they would try to calm the atmosphere in the Palestinian territories, as part of an attempt to restart peace talks.

Abbas, locked in a violent power struggle with the Islamic militant Hamas, had angrily denounced the Ramallah raid, saying it was a sign that Israel's assurances that it is seeking peace cannot be believed. Olmert at the time apologized for the loss of lives, while the army portrayed the Ramallah raid as a routine operation.
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/003200701071340.htm
Does this make any sense?:confused:

About as much sense as anything that happens in the middle east...

samcdkey, how about some blame for the Palestinians, the are experts at breaking understanding's for peace.

I never see you post when the Palestinians break there understanding with the Israeli's.

Please address the post, not the poster.

Israel Defense Forces GOC Central Command Yair Naveh admitted Sunday that the timing of the IDF operation in the West Bank city of Ramallah on Thursday, in which 4 Palestinians were killed and 20 others wounded, was an "error of judgment."

"We were wrong," the officer said, "we thought the operation would go smoothly and that the force would leave the city before anyone noticed. In practice the operation became a thorny affair."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/810325.html

Please address the post, not the poster.

Don't know enough about the facts ....all I can see is innuendo and accusation without factual evidence. It's easy to make false claims.

Baron Max

Try again:

Still it ain't my place to judge. Is it yours?

Baron Max

Not judge, venture an opinion. And if not, then why are you posting?

Don't know enough of the facts!! And why should I, or anyone, venture an opinion or a judgement without verifiable, accurate facts? To do so is nothing short of encitement to cause harm. Surely you wouldn't do THAT, would you, Sam???

Baron Max

Don't know enough of the facts!! And why should I, or anyone, venture an opinion or a judgement without verifiable, accurate facts? To do so is nothing short of encitement to cause harm. Surely you wouldn't do THAT, would you, Sam???

Baron Max

So an admission by the IDF officer in charge and the investigation by the government official is not enough?

What would you consider irrefutable facts in this case?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/810325.html[/QUOTE]
Also in the same url:

The officer said also that Rabia Hamid, the wanted Fatah militant, was suspected of involvement in eight recent shooting attacks in the Ramallah area in which an Israeli-Arab man was killed and several soldiers and other civilians were hurt.

...

Following the shooting, the force was recognized as Israeli and was attacked by gunmen and by civilians throwing stones and firebombs. Four Palestinians were killed during the fighting and 20 others were injured.

...

During an initial debriefing soldiers in the force said the fugitive was armed with a pistol, but threw it away when he saw the IDF troops and ran off. Once their identity had been revealed, the force walked to the front of the building and waited to be evacuated, but by then they were caught in a hail of gunfire and firebombs

Was the "fugitive" in Israel? does he have a right to be on the West Bank, where he lives?

Isn't there a ceasefire on? What are Israeli soldiers doing in Ramallah under cover (since their identity was revealed only later)?

And:

During an initial debriefing soldiers in the force said the fugitive was armed with a pistol, but threw it away when he saw the IDF troops and ran off.

Was the "fugitive" in Israel? does he have a right to be on the West Bank, where he lives?
The fugitive murderer was not in Israel. He has the right to be in the west bank, he does not have the right to kill citizens (this why he is a murdere)


Isn't there a ceasefire on?
Well, since the declaration of the ceasefire, everyday, a few kaams are fired toward Israel, so I will ask the same: Isn't there a ceasefire on?


What are Israeli soldiers doing in Ramallah under cover (since their identity was revealed only later)?
This murdere has killed an Israeli citizen (an arab Israeli), so they came to arrest him.


And:
During an initial debriefing soldiers in the force said the fugitive was armed with a pistol, but threw it away when he saw the IDF troops and ran off.
As you see, this "innocent" man was armed.

The fugitive murderer was not in Israel. He has the right to be in the west bank, he does not have the right to kill citizens (this why he is a murdere)

Where was this citizen?


Well, since the declaration of the ceasefire, everyday, a few kaams are fired toward Israel, so I will ask the same: Isn't there a ceasefire on?


But Olmert himself said he will ignore the rockets because he knows Abbas is having problems controlling Hamas.

So why were there 20 jeeps full of soldiers in Ramallah?

This murdere has killed an Israeli citizen (an arab Israeli), so they came to arrest him.


Where was this citizen when he was killed. Was he a civilian or a soldier?

As you see, this "innocent" man was armed.

They are at war. Did he not throw away his gun on seeing the Israelis?

go israel, go.

samcdkey, how about some blame for the Palestinians, the are experts at breaking understanding's for peace.

I never see you post when the Palestinians break there understanding with the Israeli's.Are you kidding? terrorists are always the victim.

Where was this citizen?

According to your source, it was near Rammallah


But Olmert himself said he will ignore the rockets because he knows Abbas is having problems controlling Hamas.


So why were there 20 jeeps full of soldiers in Ramallah?

They came to arrest him


Where was this citizen when he was killed. Was he a civilian or a soldier?

According to your source. he was a citizen.


They are at war. Did he not throw away his gun on seeing the Israelis?
You don't know if he didn't fire at the Israeli's force first, and then, after being shot he dropped his gun and ran off

According to your source, it was near Rammallah

They came to arrest him

According to your source. he was a citizen.

Ramallah is in Israel?
Soldiers are not citizens?

You don't know if he didn't fire at the Israeli's force first, and then, after being shot he dropped his gun and ran off

So how do you?

Isn't there a ceasefire on?
Only around Gaza.

Don't know enough of the facts!! And why should I, or anyone, venture an opinion or a judgement without verifiable, accurate facts? To do so is nothing short of encitement to cause harm. Surely you wouldn't do THAT, would you, Sam???

Baron Max

Good Morning Maximus.

I hope you are well and had a great weekend:D :D :D

You are a complete and utter TUBE. Going by your logic you are a great one to talk, you are absolutely appauling at back up you wild, false and vile accusation with evidence.

Perhaps in all honest you can tell the board how many times you ahve failed to back up any of your claims, i suggest you too think before posting and have the credible evidence to back up you claims.. for example io am still waiting for an answer to what a gazzlion means and i am still waiting to here how you quantitfy the so called gazzilion muslims celebrating for one of the crimes against hanity 9-11

Perhaps you would like to look into every thread you ghavent backed up espically when asked with eveidence.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

samcdkey, how about some blame for the Palestinians, the are experts at breaking understanding's for peace.

I never see you post when the Palestinians break there understanding with the Israeli's.

My Dear Buffalo

i hope you had a good wekend

i know it is frustrating when blame is only put on one side of the argument, but perhaps if we actually looked at the side we support and see their problems and faults first then we maybe able to gather a bigger picture. i for one condem and i know sam does too condem Palestinian attrocities against israeli civilians, but i dont hear the guys on the israeli supporting side, condem any attrocities by israel.

it would be great to be corrected on this, so please fire away my good man,.

~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

Good Morning Maximus. Perhaps in all honest you can tell the board how many times you ahve failed to back up any of your claims, ...

Well, Zak, that's actually pretty easy ...cause I seldom, if ever, make any claims about anything. I mostly ask pointed questions about the claims of others ...and questions don't usually need back-up evidence.

Baron Max

i for one condem and i know sam does too condem Palestinian attrocities against israeli civilians, but i dont hear the guys on the israeli supporting side, condem any attrocities by israel.

Ya' know, Zak, there's a helluva big difference between what an vicious, armed INDIVIDUAL does and that of what a sovereign nation does.

In this time of law, and internationally accepted law, no individual or group of individuals have the right to take the law into their own hands! If we allow such actions to take place, then we're essentially allowing any and all criminal actions all over the world.

NO INDIVIDUAL HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE THE LAW INTO HIS OWN HANDS!!

Baron Max

Palestine...the promised land...God's land...the land of the chosen. Meanwhile it is all but hell this Palestine and Israel.

Open the passage Moses through the ocean for us to walk to the land of blood and fire.

Ramallah is in Israel?
It is in Judeah


Soldiers are not citizens?
Soldiers are citizens but citizens are not necessarily soldiers.
When they write 1 citizen was killed and several soldiers were wounded, this means that the one that was killed was not a soldier.

Do you think that because the citizen that was killed was not a jew but an arab, the one that have killed him should be left free and unpunished?

Well, Zak, that's actually pretty easy ...cause I seldom, if ever, make any claims about anything. I mostly ask pointed questions about the claims of others ...and questions don't usually need back-up evidence.

Baron Max

Hey Max

yes you do ask questions and i am sure you would agree in response to questions thrown at you.

And you hardly ever back up your acusaions when you do make them with evidence


Ya' know, Zak, there's a helluva big difference between what an vicious, armed INDIVIDUAL does and that of what a sovereign nation does.

In this time of law, and internationally accepted law, no individual or group of individuals have the right to take the law into their own hands! If we allow such actions to take place, then we're essentially allowing any and all criminal actions all over the world.

NO INDIVIDUAL HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE THE LAW INTO HIS OWN HANDS!!

Baron Max

I was not asking this, please re-read my post. I am not saying that the actions of some palestinians is corrrect.

~~~~~~~~~~~
take care
zak

If we make the not-so-far-fetched assumption that Palestinians allow other Palestinians to work on means of attacking Israel then it is up to the Israelis to go in to the Territories and nab the would-be do-badders.

I’m sure if the Palestinian authority could be trusted to do the job, they’d happily send the Intel over to them and let them do it.

Why else do it?

Michael

If we make the not-so-far-fetched assumption that Palestinians allow other Palestinians to work on means of attacking Israel then it is up to the Israelis to go in to the Territories and nab the would-be do-badders.

I’m sure if the Palestinian authority could be trusted to do the job, they’d happily send the Intel over to them and let them do it.

Why else do it?

Yeah, I wonder how New York City police and authorities would view it if New Jersey residents started indiscriminately lobbing rockets into the city? And then how would it be if New Jersey cops claimed that they couldn't do anything to stop it? Hmm? Think NYC authorities would just sit back and let the rockets drop without doin' a damned thing?

Baron Max

Yeah, I wonder how New York City police and authorities would view it if New Jersey residents started indiscriminately lobbing rockets into the city? And then how would it be if New Jersey cops claimed that they couldn't do anything to stop it? Hmm? Think NYC authorities would just sit back and let the rockets drop without doin' a damned thing?

Baron Max

And what would the New Jersey people do if they were thrown out of their houses without any notice, blocked access to food and water, all local infrastructure (police, hospital, sewage, food supply, schools) bombed out of existence media rigidly controlled so no one knew exactly what was happening to them, tanks going in every day and demolishing their houses and orchards leaving them with no food, civic amenities or employment and their women, children, young men, old men targeted by soldiers or thrown into prison.

What would the New Jersey people do, Baron? Would they think of law and order? Just sit back and wait for the authorities?

no palestnians civilians are targeted by soldiers. there are incidents, but its consider a crime(or illegal command).

no palestnians civilians are targeted by soldiers. there are incidents, but its consider a crime(or illegal command).

Snipers with children in their sights
CHRIS McGREAL
Guardian, 28 June 2005

It was the shooting of Asma Mughayar that swept away any lingering doubts I had about how it is the Israeli army kills so many Palestinian children and civilians.

Asma, 16, and her younger brother, Ahmad, were collecting laundry from the roof of their home in the south of the Gaza Strip in May last year when they were felled by an Israeli army sniper. Neither child was armed or threatening the soldier, who fired unseen through a hole punched in the wall of a neighbouring block of flats.

The army said the two were blown up by a Palestinian bomb planted to kill soldiers. The corpses offered a different account. In Rafah's morgue, Asma lay with a single bullet hole through her temple; her 13-year-old brother had a lone shot to his forehead. There were no other injuries, certainly none consistent with a blast.

Confronted with this, the army changed its account and claimed the pair were killed by a Palestinian, though there was persuasive evidence pointing to the Israeli sniper's nest. What the military did not do was ask its soldiers why they gave a false account of the deaths or speak to the children's parents or any other witnesses.

When reporters pressed the issue, the army promised a full investigation, but a few weeks later it was quietly dropped. This has become the norm in a military that appears to value protecting itself from accountability more than living up to its claim to be the "most moral army in the world".

:rolleyes:

"..... Confronted with this, the army changed its account and claimed the pair were killed by a Palestinian, though there was persuasive evidence pointing to the Israeli sniper's nest. What the military did not do was ask its soldiers why they gave a false account of the deaths or speak to the children's parents or any other witnesses.

When reporters pressed the issue, the army promised a full investigation, ..."

So ...what ye're saying is that you just don't believe the Israeli military account, is that it, Sam? You'd rather believe ...what??

It's easy for you, Sam, when you just don't believe anything that the Israelis say or do or propose or suggest or.... But then you also don't believe anything that the US says or does or proposes or suggests or ....

But you believe everything that the Indian government says or does, huh?? :D

Baron Max

So ...what ye're saying is that you just don't believe the Israeli military account, is that it, Sam? You'd rather believe ...what??

It's easy for you, Sam, when you just don't believe anything that the Israelis say or do or propose or suggest or.... But then you also don't believe anything that the US says or does or proposes or suggests or ....

But you believe everything that the Indian government says or does, huh?? :D

Baron Max

Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, you can't fool me. Right?


In the present intifada, 323 Palestinian children under the age of 14 have been killed by IDF fire. Three recent examples from Nablus...

Why waste ammunition? A few days ago, an Israel Defense Forces soldier fired at two boys in the casbah of Nablus. Just a lone bullet that penetrated the body of one of the boys, exited, penetrated the second boy, and killed both of them. Two 15-year-old boys standing with their arms around each other on the street that descends to the marketplace.

The soldier didn't "confirm the kill" after his two victims fell; perhaps that is why nobody on our side was shocked by this horrific double killing. But in two homes in the casbah of Nablus, dead children were being mourned. One, Amar Banaat, was his mother's only child, born after 15 years of infertility; the other, Montasser Hadada, had lost his father only three months ago. On the wall, next to the picture of the two children, there is also one of their good friend Hani Kandil, who was killed in the same place in the casbah several months ago. Three pictures of dead children on the wall.
http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1466

:rolleyes:

as usual sam, you only hear one side from a newspaper you read. how objective of you.

as usual sam, you only hear one side from a newspaper you read. how objective of you.

Wait let me guess. The children are all suicide bombers.

Right?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13863.htm


As author John Pilger notes in a recent article "The War on Children"

"Dr. Khalid Dahlan, a psychiatrist who heads a children's community health project, told me, 'The statistic I personally find unbearable is that 99.4 percent of the children we studied suffer trauma … 99.2 percent had their homes bombarded; 97.5 percent were exposed to tear gas; 96.6 percent witnessed shooting; a third saw family members or neighbors injured or killed.’"

Dr. Dahlan’s findings are consistent with other studies which show that at least 72.8% of children in the occupied territories suffer some form of trauma from exposure to random explosions and violence. The result has been a steady up-tick in the number of children who suffer from long-term effects of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) a condition which can have a destructive effect on mental development and create adults that are excessively nervous, needy or depressed. As Pilger avers, "These children suffer unrelenting nightmares and 'night terrors’ and the dichotomy of having to cope with these conditions."

Israel’s sonic blasts are part of a larger psy-ops war that is aimed at directly at children; it has no other conceivable purpose. The explosions have no military value except to attack the fragile psyche of the most vulnerable and sensitive. As the survey indicates, Israel’s plan has succeeded quite admirably. In fact, Israel is so pleased with the results of its psy-ops terror-campaign that it has developed "sound bombs" which are intended to create widespread fear and trauma.

This new weapon has been successfully deployed in Gaza "inducing miscarriages and traumatizing children". Israel is aware of these effects and continues to use the weapon regardless of the human suffering it causes.

Just think of the money that could be saved if the Palestinians can just be kept in abeyance by producing a constant state of trepidation.

This appears to be the rationale of the Israeli leadership, who continue to explore the frontiers of psycho-anxiety weaponry.

What other possible reason could there be for sound bombs?

As Pilger notes,

"For the Palestinians, a war against their children is hardly new. A 2004 field study published in the British Medical Journal reported that, in the previous 4 years, 'Two-thirds 621 children killed (by Israelis) at checkpoints…on the way to school, in their homes, died from small arms fire, directed in over half the cases to the head neck and chest—the sniper’s wound."

Whether the Israeli people support a policy that intentionally targets children is irrelevant. As the "sound bombs" indicate, such a policy does in fact exist. Also, as the "sniper wounds" of over 400 children suggest, the killing of children is, at the very least, tolerated as an unavoidable consequence of occupation.

as usual sam, you only hear one side from a newspaper you read. how objective of you.

Yeah, and she's/he's the very one that calls for all of us to fair and objective! ...LOL!

Baron Max

Yeah, and she's/he's the very one that calls for all of us to fair and objective! ...LOL!

Baron Max

You mean the newspaper accounts above vs the Western rhetoric that the suicide bombers want to meet the 72 virgins on a fast track to heaven?

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL !:eek:

How does a nation wander so far from its founding principles that children are willingly sacrificed as the price for attaining one’s territorial ambitions?

"The killing, abduction, and suppression of the Palestinians by the Israeli military forces do not conform to any reason or logic; rather they flout the Jewish beliefs." Official Statement of the Iranian Jewish Community

Wait let me guess. The children are all suicide bombers.

Right?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13863.htm

no-you only heard one side of the story and brought up as "evidence". ill bet every "evidence" ill bring from a newspaper you will disagree. but one sided you are sam. do you care for the children of shderot, who too suffer from trauma as a result of qassam rockets?

no-you only heard one side of the story and brought up as "evidence". ill bet every "evidence" ill bring from a newspaper you will disagree. but one sided you are sam. do you care for the children of shderot, who too suffer from trauma as a result of qassam rockets?

oh puh-lease

A British cameraman was shot dead by Israeli troops last night after a group of journalists came under fire in the Gaza Strip city of Rafah.Witnesses said that the Israeli soldiers, who were demolishing a home in the area, shot at the journalists even though they were waving white flags and torches, and shouting in Hebrew and English that they were journalists.Mr Miller is the third foreigner to be killed or seriously wounded in Rafah in recent weeks. Tom Hurndall, 21, a peace activist from north London, is still in a coma after being shot in the head by Israeli troops three weeks ago.

Witnesses said that he was shot by an Israeli soldier stationed in a military watchtower as he stooped to pick up a Palestinian girl.


Israel Blocks Tutu Fact-Finding Mission
The Associated Press
By BRADLEY S. KLAPPER
December 11, 2006

Israel heard that they decided not to come. We had not given them a negative response, our final decision was pending

Israel has blocked a U.N. fact-finding mission to the Gaza Strip that was to be led by Nobel Laureate Desmond Tutu, officials said Monday.

Tutu was to begin leading a six-member team over the past weekend in the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun to investigate the killings of 19 civilians in an Israeli artillery barrage last month.

But Israel refused to grant the South African anti-apartheid campaigner the necessary travel clearance, said officials in two separate U.N. departments.



Transparency? Please do explain your side of it.

oh puh-lease




Transparency? Please do explain your side of it.

you know sam, you are so full of yourself. you are very much welcome to argue with yourself. it is pointless to discuss something with someone who has already have a pov, based only on one side, and have no real intension to hear the other side. but, when you really want to hear what i have to say-let me know, ill be more then happy.

Each invasion into the refugee squalor proves Israel is a failed state. Terrified of Everyone. Each invasion of Palestinian land also creates more freedom fighters. Isn't it obvious their Gestapo tactics don't work??

islamic: samdkey, genji, how many names do you have?

you know sam, you are so full of yourself. you are very much welcome to argue with yourself. it is pointless to discuss something with someone who has already have a pov, based only on one side, and have no real intension to hear the other side. but, when you really want to hear what i have to say-let me know, ill be more then happy.
oh those poor palestinian terrorists are just poor victims. argh.

islamic: samdkey, genji, how many names do you have?Kiwi is back!! Time for the ignore list!

oh those poor palestinian terrorists are just poor victims. argh.Reported. More baiting & trolling desperate zionist Kiwi.

Yes in Sam's world the Palestinians are never wrong and always the victim, after all they are fellow Moslems, and Moslem don't ever do anything that is not deserved by the people they do it to.

Yes in Sam's world the Palestinians are never wrong and always the victim, after all they are fellow Moslems, and Moslem don't ever do anything that is not deserved by the people they do it to.As opposed to? All Muslims/Arabs are Terrorists?

you know sam, you are so full of yourself. you are very much welcome to argue with yourself. it is pointless to discuss something with someone who has already have a pov, based only on one side, and have no real intension to hear the other side. but, when you really want to hear what i have to say-let me know, ill be more then happy.

In case you missed it, NONE of the reports I have linked to are by Palestinians :rolleyes:

Some of them are even by *gasp* Israelis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And what would the New Jersey people do if they were thrown out of their houses without any notice, blocked access to food and water, all local infrastructure (police, hospital, sewage, food supply, schools) bombed out of existence media rigidly controlled so no one knew exactly what was happening to them, tanks going in every day and demolishing their houses and orchards leaving them with no food, civic amenities or employment and their women, children, young men, old men targeted by soldiers or thrown into prison.

What would the New Jersey people do, Baron? Would they think of law and order? Just sit back and wait for the authorities?While I don't agree with Baron on many things and Sam I'm not arguing with you on this point - But that wasn't the point of your post - was it?

On that topic, yeah, if I were a Palestinian and someone was living in my actually home - as some Israeli are right now as we speak - I'd do whatever I could to get my home back. Jesus, some of these homes have been in family’s hands for generations - not to mention the home, for most people, is the single most important asset they will own - in their entire lives.

I think many on the board would think similarly?
Michael II

Heck yeah, if I were an ethnic German who'd lost my home (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II) in Russia after World War II, I'd be suicide bombing those dirty Soviets to shreds.

...I'd do whatever I could to get my home back.

Even randomly kill little kids and innocent women at a wedding party? ...those kids and women having nothing to do with taking your home?

You'd take the law into your own hands and commit even worse crimes than those who you claim took your home? Oh, but wait, "the law" is the very reason that you use to claim that someone took you home, right?

Jesus, some of these homes have been in family’s hands for generations - not to mention the home, for most people, is the single most important asset they will own - in their entire lives.

Yes, a home is much more valuable than human lives, especially innocent human lives. ...or the lives of your own famly and children.

I think many on the board would think similarly?

Well, then that makes it okay, right? If "many" believe it, then it must be true. No one should have to bow to the law, everyone should take the law into their own hands whenever they feel like it ...especially if "many people" on this board agree.

Baron Max

Heck yeah, if I were an ethnic German who'd lost my home (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II) in Russia after World War II, I'd be suicide bombing those dirty Soviets to shreds.

If you would you wouldn't be an ethnic german. The soviet forces were quite suprised by the reaction of the germans after entering german territory. they expected that the people would start massive partisan parties like Russians did when Germans entered their territory. They did nothing like that. Instead they obeyed the new masters and all they wanted was to rebuild a normal life.

Instead they obeyed the new masters and all they wanted was to rebuild a normal life.
Some people have no sense of drama. I mean, given the choice between 'endless conflict' and a 'normal life', I think it's pretty obvious what any halfway decent person would pick.

In case you missed it, NONE of the reports I have linked to are by Palestinians :rolleyes:

Some of them are even by *gasp* Israelis!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so? weve been there havent we?

Even randomly kill little kids and innocent women at a wedding party? ...those kids and women having nothing to do with taking your home? Yeah, maybe. I suppose it depends on my mental development living in the squalor of a concentration/refuge camp. Sure sitting here in sunny AU I’d say no. But living in a shit-hole camp my entire life while someone enjoys a wedding in the opulence of MY families backyard, while I live in a box, well – perhaps I’d take a different view.

What would you do Baron if someone forced you from your home. Then they sold your home on the cheap to some family. Say you and your family were forced to live on the street and eat from a soup kitchen. When confronted the new homeowners said: "Yea, we know it wasn’t right to take your home but we got such a good deal. Hey gang lets party! Sorry Baron but the police will be here to take you to jail for harassing us. Bye bye sucker!" :cool:

Hmmm… now maybe I’m wrong but I can sort of hear it now:
Bad Baron, Bad Baron, Whatchya ganna do, Whatchya ganna do when Baron comes for you …

LOL
MII

What would you do Baron if someone forced you from your home.

I'd go to the law and the courts. To do anything else would be taking that law into my own hands ...and worse, getting myself arrested and thrown into jail sure as hell wouldn't help my family, now would it?

And yet, it's strange, ya' know ...there are people here, many people, who support that very thing for Palestinian individuals. They think that individuals should take the law into their own hands ...as if the law means nothing. How can anyone justify that act? ...regardless of what was done to them, how can anyone justify taking the law into their own hands?

Without laws, what are we? What have we become if we condone vigilantiism?

Baron Max

I'd go to the law and the courts. And if there is no Law saying taking your home is illegal and therefor no Court willing to see that you get your home returned to you?

A "Right of Return" if you will?

Then what do you do? Live in a Box and eat from a can?

Well, What do you do?
Michael

And if there is no Law saying taking your home is illegal and therefor no Court willing to see that you get your home returned to you?

A "Right of Return" if you will?

Then what do you do? Live in a Box and eat from a can?

Well, What do you do?

Go get a job and support my family. My getting killed trying to take back my house from the very person who was strong enough to take in the first place is pretty stupid, don't you think? If I'd been that strong, he'd not have taken my house!

Now ....my family comes first. If you don't realize that, then there really is something wrong with you and the values that you hold. Think about it.

The Pals are in about the same boat ....and they've been at it now for about a gazillion years and nothing has gotten better for them. In fact, it's gotten worse! They weren't able to care for the refugees who returned ...now they're problem is much greater than before.

Baron Max

Go get a job and support my family. My getting killed trying to take back my house from the very person who was strong enough to take in the first place is pretty stupid, don't you think? If I'd been that strong, he'd not have taken my house!

Now ....my family comes first. If you don't realize that, then there really is something wrong with you and the values that you hold. Think about it.

The Pals are in about the same boat ....and they've been at it now for about a gazillion years and nothing has gotten better for them. In fact, it's gotten worse! They weren't able to care for the refugees who returned ...now they're problem is much greater than before.

Baron Max

What if you cannot get a job because entry into and out of your country is regulated and you have no resources to go elsewhere and local infrastructure being bombed, there are no jobs available.

Plus there is curfew installed, you cannot leave the house or access food and water.

Moreover you have six children a wife, a mother and five younger brothers who depend on you and you have run out of all your money?

And since the last three months you have been living on one meal a day.

Not to mention tanks can come anytime to demolish your house, or a phone call can tell you to leave your house immediately, and you just heard two of your adolescent sons have been picked up and taken to prison.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14799.htm

Then what do you do?

Baron Max,

What if you couldn't get work either. So no work for you. Basically you must live in a Box with your family and eat from a Tin Can.

Also suppose the people living in what used to be your home (before it was stolen from you) didn't really like you much - indirectly they ensured you didn't get hired.

So now what?
Michael


Also:
Assuming the person used guns and bombs against you and your family to steal your home: What exactly did you mean when you wrote:
If I'd been that strong, he'd not have taken my house!

But what if you abandoned your house? As many did after the 48 war.

But what if you abandoned your house? As many did after the 48 war.
The US taxpayer buys the Jew a new one. Which is exactly what happened.

Please provide a site link, you excuse of not being able to do a Google search doesn't wash, I was doing Google searches a week after I got this thing, and according to you I am on the lower end of the intelligence scale, it would appear that I'm smarter than you I have learned to use the research capabilities of this computer quite easily.

Please provide a site link, you excuse of not being able to do a Google search doesn't wash, I was doing Google searches a week after I got this thing, and according to you I am on the lower end of the intelligence scale, it would appear that I'm smarter than you I have learned to use the research capabilities of this computer quite easily.I have no clue as to how I search a radio show online for this subject. I'm a one finger, slow typer at work. I'm doing my very best. Are you suggesting the chemical weapons used on the Kurds was from another state?

Oops! Wrong thread! The USA subsidized housing for the Jews that flooded into Palestine after the war. Most had nothing. Prove I'm wrong.

Not at the speed that you answer post, your excuse is wearing thin.

But what if you abandoned your house? As many did after the 48 war.???

Do you mean people left their own with no intention of ever returning or people left their home as people are in Iraq - hopeing that after the war they will be able to come home?

Again provide the site to prove you statement, I am not your personel research robot.

Not at the speed that you answer post, your excuse is wearing thin.Do you see many links in my posts that aren't movies? I don't have to prove anything to you sir. If you discount my information then go ahead!

Many refused to return until Israel was destroyed, many returned with no problems at all, and recovered their homes.

Many refused to return until Israel was destroyed, many returned with no problems at all, and recovered their homes.
Proof! I need a link.

Movies, fantasy, can't do research, runs his mouth with no back up, dam are you that incapable of learning, if you are then why should anyone take your thought seriously? The ability not to learn is a sign of a true Bigot!

Movies, fantasy, can't do research, runs his mouth with no back up, dam are you that incapable of learning, if you are then why should anyone take your thought seriously? The ability not to learn is a sign of a true Bigot!I don't know much about computers. I try but I have a long way to go before learning how to search for details on big subjects. I have no co-workers also, which makes progress slower still. Put me on ignore if my brilliance threatens you. kisses & buffalo hugs



can you tell I took my medication today??:o

Proof! I need a link.

Try this:

http://www.cactus48.com/statehood.html

My mistake about the return policy, but read the whole article, and then give your thoughtful opinion. Thanks for the challenge, I now have the information that shows it was their fellow Arabs who cause the refugee problem.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.html

Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

Observers feel that with proper counsel after the Israeli*Egyptian armistice, the Arab population might have advantageously remained. They state that the Israeli Government had given guarantees of security of person and property. However, no effort was made by Egypt, Transjordan or even the United Nations Palestine Conciliation Commission to advise the Faluja Arabs one way or the other (New York Times, March 4, 1949).

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948*49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.


How Many Refugees?
Many Arabs claim that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians became refugees in 1947*49. The last census was taken in 1945. It found only 756,000 permanent Arab residents in Israel. On November 30, 1947, the date the UN voted for partition, the total was 809,100. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war. This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure — 472,000.

Guess you cannot be bothered to read:

Statehood and Expulsion
1948

What was the Arab reaction to the announcement of the creation of the state of Israel?

"The armies of the Arab states entered the war immediately after the State of Israel was founded in May. Fighting continued, almost all of it within the territory assigned to the Palestinian state...About 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

Was the part of Palestine assigned to a Jewish state in mortal danger from the Arab armies?

"The Arab League hastily called for its member countries to send regular army troops into Palestine. They were ordered to secure only the sections of Palestine given to the Arabs under the partition plan. But these regular armies were ill equipped and lacked any central command to coordinate their efforts...[Jordan's King Abdullah] promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements...Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified." "Our Roots Are Still Alive," by the Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.

Ethnic cleansing of the Arab population of Palestine

"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund...On December 19, 1940, he wrote: 'It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country...The Zionist enterprise so far...has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with 'land buying' - but this will not bring about the State of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a Salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not a single tribe'...There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

Ethnic cleansing - continued

"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."

Ethnic cleansing - continued

"Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no 'expulsion policy', the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949"

Didn't the Palestinians leave their homes voluntarily during the 1948 war?

"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action - whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it- or its predecessors - actively created." Peretz Kidron, quoted in "Blaming the Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens.

Arab orders to evacuate non-existent

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

Ethnic cleansing- continued

"That Ben-Gurion's ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."

[I] The deliberate destruction of Arab villages to prevent return of Palestinians[invitation?]

"During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

After the fighting was over, why didn't the Palestinians return to their homes?

"The first UN General Assembly resolution--Number 194- affirming the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was passed on December 11, 1948. It has been repassed no less than twenty-eight times since that first date. Whereas the moral and political right of a person to return to his place of uninterrupted residence is acknowledged everywhere, Israel has negated the possibility of return... [and] systematically and juridically made it impossible, on any grounds whatever, for the Arab Palestinian to return, be compensated for his property, or live in Israel as a citizen equal before the law with a Jewish Israeli." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

Is there any justification for this expropriation of land?

"The fact that the Arabs fled in terror, because of real fear of a repetition of the 1948 Zionist massacres, is no reason for denying them their homes, fields and livelihoods. Civilians caught in an area of military activity generally panic. But they have always been able to return to their homes when the danger subsides. Military conquest does not abolish private rights to property; nor does it entitle the victor to confiscate the homes, property and personal belongings of the noncombatant civilian population. The seizure of Arab property by the Israelis was an outrage." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

How about the negotiations after the 1948-1949 wars?

"[At Lausanne,] Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinians were trying to save by negotiations what they had lost in the war--a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Israel, however... [preferred] tenuous armistice agreements to a definite peace that would involve territorial concessions and the repatriation of even a token number of refugees. The refusal to recognize the Palestinians' right to self-determination and statehood proved over the years to be the main source of the turbulence, violence, and bloodshed that came to pass." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth Of Israel."

Israel admitted to UN but then reneged on the conditions under which it was admitted

"The [Lausanne] conference officially opened on 27 April 1949. On 12 May the [UN's] Palestine Conciliation ,Committee reaped its only success when it induced the parties to sign a joint protocol on the framework for a comprehensive peace. . Israel for the first time accepted the principle of repatriation [of the Arab refugees] and the internationalization of Jerusalem. . .[but] they did so as a mere exercise in public relations aimed at strengthening Israel's international image...Walter Eytan, the head of the Israeli delegation, [stated]..'My main purpose was to begin to undermine the protocol of 12 May, which we had signed only under duress of our struggle for admission to the U.N. Refusal to sign would...have immediately been reported to the Secretary-General and the various governments.'" Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, "The Making of the Arab-Israel Conflict, 1947-1951."

Israeli admission to the U.N.- continued

"The Preamble of this resolution of admission included a safeguarding clause as follows: 'Recalling its resolution of 29 November 1947 (on partition) and 11 December 1948 (on reparation and compensation), and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions, the General Assembly...decides to admit Israel into membership in the United Nations.'

"Here, it must be observed, is a condition and an undertaking to implement the resolutions mentioned. There was no question of such implementation being conditioned on the conclusion of peace on Israeli terms as the Israelis later claimed to justify their non-compliance." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

What was the fate of the Palestinians who had now become refugees?

"The winter of 1949, the first winter of exile for more than seven hundred fifty thousand Palestinians, was cold and hard...Families huddled in caves, abandoned huts, or makeshift tents...Many of the starving were only miles away from their own vegetable gardens and orchards in occupied Palestine - the new state of Israel...At the end of 1949 the United Nations finally acted. It set up the United Nations Relief and Works Administration (UNRWA) to take over sixty refugee camps from voluntary agencies. It managed to keep people alive, but only barely." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by The Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.

http://www.cactus48.com/statehood.html

And what have the Arab States of the middle east done for the Refugee's, most of them today were not born in the Palestinian Mandate, they have been born in the various middle eastern countries, which should make them citizens of the country in which they were born, but has any middle east country given citizenship to those born on the land of those countries? the vast majority of Palestinians have no claim to Israel, they weren't born there, and the Arabs don't do a thing to give them the chance to have a home.

And what have the Arab States of the middle east done for the Refugee's, most of them today were not born in the Palestinian Mandate, they have been born in the various middle eastern countries, which should make them citizens of the country in which they were born, but has any middle east country given citizenship to those born on the land of those countries? the vast majority of Palestinians have no claim to Israel,they weren't born there, and the Arabs don't do a thing to give them the chance to have a home.

No need for the BS. I just gave you the link. Now you know the right of it, its between you and your conscience.

btw

Remember, the US sent back shiploads (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html) of people who escaped the Nazis, including children, so really, you're in no position to point fingers at anyone. And you've been supporting the persecution of Palestine all these years.

What BS, the only BS is your denying that the Arabs have not done a thing for the Palestinians, no citizenship for those born in their lands, no jobs, no right to own a home, no right to have a bank account, no rights at all except to die. As a fellow Moslem, what have you done to help them become citizens of the lands were they were born? what have you done to end the situation, and get the Arabs to let the people born to their land be given the chance to own homes, have jobs, build a life in the lands were they were born? if all of the Palestinans were to return to Israel today were would they fit, and how many of them would claim the same proprty as their own.

What BS, the only BS is your denying that the Arabs have not done a thing for the Palestinians, no citizenship for those born in their lands, no jobs, no right to own a home, no right to have a bank account, no rights at all except to die. As a fellow Moslem, what have you done to help them become citizens of the lands were they were born? what have you done to end the situation, and get the Arabs to let the people born to their land be given the chance to own homes, have jobs, build a life in the lands were they were born? if all of the Palestinans were to return to Israel today were would they fit, and how many of them would claim the same proprty as their own.

Whatever makes you sleep better.:rolleyes:

Sam
Remember, the US sent back shiploads of people who escaped the Nazis, including children, so really, you're in no position to point fingers at anyone. And you've been supporting the persecution of Palestine all these years.

What does that have to do with the subject? and you can read my mind? must be a wonder woman, NOT!

btw, one in fifty Palestinians are Christian (used to be one in five, but with all those Arab names, and everyone calling God Allah there, can anyone tell what happened to the rest?)

Sam


What does that have to do with the subject? and you can read my mind? must be a wonder woman, NOT!That's Right!! I'M Wonder Woman!!

No I don't support the persecution of the Palestinians, and most of the persecutions has been at the hands of the Arabs, is there a Arab country that has let Palestinians settle in their land and given them citizenship, or have they keep them in camps, and not allowed them any rights at all?

No I don't support the persecution of the Palestinians, and most of the persecutions has been at the hands of the Arabs, is there a Arab country that has let Palestinians settle in their land and given them citizenship, or have they keep them in camps, and not allowed them any rights at all?Jordan, Syria and Egypt.

No I don't support the persecution of the Palestinians, and most of the persecutions has been at the hands of the Arabs, is there a Arab country that has let Palestinians settle in their land and given them citizenship, or have they keep them in camps, and not allowed them any rights at all?

More BS.

They want their own country, like anyone else. Why else are 3 million Palestinians refusing to leave? Why else are they willing to give their lives? For their country.

Americans may be happy to take any land as their own, they have not lived in the same place for thousands of years. They would surely give up their country happily to the Mexicans or Arabs, I'm sure.:rolleyes:

Jordan, Syria and Egypt.

Jordan: gave West Bank Palestinians citizenship while occupying it, but recalled it after '67. Palestinians were treated quite well in Jordan itself, except when Arafat tried to take control of the country. In the ensuing violence, which came to be known as Black September, the Jordanian Army murdered thousands of Palestinians. The PLO, expelled, made its new headquarters in Lebanon.

Lebanon: no citizenship, and precious few other rights.
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/lebanon.html

Syria: not that I know of.
The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland"...

Jordan is the only Arab country which historically gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

Egypt: Occupied Gaza for 18 years, but didn't give the inhabitants Egyptian citizenship.

Israel: gave citizenship to Palestinians still in Israel. Hasn't offered citizenship to the majority of Palestinians in the '67 occupied territories. In areas 'formerly' annexed (East Jerusalem, Golan Heights - although these aren't recognised as such internationally) it gave residents the option of acquiring Israeli citizenship if they agreed to recognise Israeli law, and to renounce previous citizenships.


However, the 2002 Saudi Peace Plan does call for a resettlement of many refugees in Arab countries, excluding Lebanon due to the delicate demographic balance between Christians and Muslims there.

Palestinian refugees have traditionally been excluded from the protection benefits provided by the 1950 creation of the UN High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR). The UNHCR saw the Palestinian refugee case as “political,” and campaigning for the right of return for Palestinian refugees would go against what they saw as the “non-political” agenda of their mandate.

Those Palestinians able to benefit from UNWRA assistance services were considered ineligible for the protection services of other agencies, despite the fact that UNWRA is an assistance, not a protection, authority. Palestinians in Arab countries (as in Non-Arab States), found themselves outside the special protection provided by the 1951 Refugee Convention, even if the shelter state was a party to the Convention.

Doesn't look like anyone else is doing much either.

The situation for Palestinian refugees in Arab states was further complicated by the fact that their dispossession occurred at a time when other parts of the Arab world were fighting or completing their struggles against colonial occupation. Western colonial powers had forced artificial borders and zones between peoples, and Arab states and citizens were in the process of defining and constructing their own modern independent national identity. The Palestinian national struggle was not something that states were strong enough or interested enough to take on any further than was in their own national or general Arab interests.

Authoritarian regimes fail to recognize the basic rights of their own nationals, let alone foreigners such as Palestinians.

Abuse of the basic civil and citizenship rights of Palestinian refugees in Arab states must be seen in the wider context of the treatment of the given state’s own nationals. Popular liberation movements under colonialism have developed into authoritarian regimes which fail to recognize the basic rights of their own national citizens, let alone foreigners such as Palestinians. Passports, citizenship, and identity papers are not seen as tickets to freedom, but a way for the government to keep control over the population. (This is the reason for opposition to identity cards by civil liberties groups in countries like the United Kingdom which as yet do not have ID cards.)

"Popular liberation movements under colonialism have developed into authoritarian regimes which fail to recognize the basic rights of their own national citizens, let alone foreigners such as Palestinians."

Something that must be avoided for a Palestinian state to be successful, though how, I don't know. A liberal constitution might be a start...

samcdkey

More BS.

Really and most Palestinians haven't lived in Israel for thousands of years, we are now moving into the 5th generation of Palestinian, refugee's, which means most of them never lived in the Mandate, and again:

“ The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland"...

(Besides Israel)

Jordan is the only Arab country which historically gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees. ”


(And the Palestinians screwed that up)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

Yes Sam tell tell me what the Arabs have done for the Paleistinians?

Hilarious. SO Palestinians who never lived in Palestine are now 5th generation refugees?

For the glorious advantages of starvation, persecution and statelessness?

The Arab countries themselves were in a turmoil when Palestine was created.

And you are spouting more BS.

What would you have the Arabs do?

Give citizenship? To 300,000 people plus in almost every country? Really?

Boycott Israel? They do that already.

Provide jobs, amenities? They do but are they rich enough to take on so many? And are not most of them until very recently under puppet regimes run by the US?

Lebanon took in the Palestinians and were rewarded for their pains by Israeli occupation for 18 years and war after war. Can they afford so many plus the wars (415,000 Palestinian refugees)?

Israel is the one to take action here no one else. Shifting the blame will not shift the CAUSES of the Palestinian displacement. They are NOT going anywhere else. The problem can only be resolved and difficulties are increased every day that the problem is further exacerbated. They are already blowing themselves up. What more do you think they can possibly do?

Blaming the victim. Shame.

The Arab countries themselves were in a turmoil when Palestine was created.

When was Palestine ever a soveriegn nation?

As far as I'm aware, the area that we tend to call Palestine has been under the control of numerous other nations and empires for gazillions of years. When was Palestine anything that even resembled a sovereign nation?

Baron Max

When was Palestine ever a soveriegn nation?

As far as I'm aware, the area that we tend to call Palestine has been under the control of numerous other nations and empires for gazillions of years. When was Palestine anything that even resembled a sovereign nation?

Baron Max

Who gives a rats ass what you think? They have lived there for thousands of years. Whether you give them legitimacy or not is not going to have any effect on their feeling for their country.

Maybe Native Americans still think America belongs to them. Are you ready to move if they think so?:rolleyes:

Again Sam making excuses for the prejudice of your fellow Moslems? tell me how much more it would cost to let them become citizen, over paying to keep them as refugee's?

Again Sam making excuses for the prejudice of your fellow Moslems? tell me how much more it would cost to let them become citizen, over paying to keep them as refugee's?

Irrelevant. Is the US willing to take ALL the refugees? 6 million.

They can afford it.

Who gives a rats ass what you think? They have lived there for thousands of years.

So living in the same area for thousands of years, always under that rule of another nation, somehow gives them rights to that land? How? Under what international law covers that?

Baron Max

So living in the same area for thousands of years, always under that rule of another nation, somehow gives them rights to that land? How? Under what international law covers that?

Baron Max

Tell it to someone who cares.

Irrelevant. Is the US willing to take ALL the refugees? 6 million. They can afford it.

No, but the US doesn't support them or their claims. Many Arab nations, as well as Iran, claim to support the Palestinians, yet as far as I know, they only give them more weapons and explosives! Refugees can't eat guns and bullets.

Baron Max

No, but the US doesn't support them or their claims. Many Arab nations, as well as Iran, claim to support the Palestinians, yet as far as I know, they only give them more weapons and explosives! Refugees can't eat guns and bullets.

Baron Max

Then shut up.:)

samcdkey,

Maybe Native Americans still think America belongs to them. Are you ready to move if they think so?

We gave them duel citizenship, they still can maintain there Indian Tribal Status, and also have full citizenship rights as Americans, can you say the same for the Palestinians under the Arabs?

The friend who is closer to me than my brother is Ojibwa, and one of my other friends is Chippewa, and both keep there tribal membership and also are citizens of the U.S., duel citizenship and I have no problem with that.

Tell it to someone who cares.

Geez, Sam, you're gettin' rather testy, ain't ya'? When did you start doin' what everyone else here does?

I would have thought that you'd post a gazillion articles "proving" that Palestinians owned the land and had all the UN rights to it, etc. Hmm, where's all your websites that support your claims???

Baron Max

samcdkey,



We gave them duel citizenship, they still can maintain there Indian Tribal Status, and also have full citizenship rights as Americans, can you say the same for the Palestinians under the Arabs?

The friend who is closer to me than my brother is Ojibwa, and one of my other friends is Chippewa, and both keep there tribal membership and also are citizens of the U.S., duel citizenship and I have no problem with that.

How magnanimous of you.

How many of them did you kill first?

And when did you "give" them these wonderful advantages? In their own country?

How magnanimous of you. How many of them did you kill first?

And how many Palestinians have the Arabs and other Muslims killed thoughout history?

Baron Max

But the U.S. sent money for the Palestinians to feed their people, build hospitals, all we ask was that they make peace with Israel, and what did the Palestinians do with the moneys, they bought weapons, and now that we have stopped sending money.

And how many Palestinians have the Arabs and other Muslims killed thoughout history?

Baron Max

Far far less than those killed by the weapons made in the USA.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Sam

And when did you "give" them these wonderful advantages? In their own country?

Sam, in the Indian way of thinking they didn't own the land, so how could it be their own country? and yes it was magnanimous of us, far more magnanimous than your Islamic Arabs, I would say, and far more magnanimous than your attitude about the statues of the Palestinian refugees.

Far far less than those killed by the weapons made in the USA.

So once again ye're having to stoop to comparing other nations' horrible actions to that of what you claim is "the worst of the worst", huh? ....LOL!

Sorta' like comparing different parts of Hell, ain't it? ...LOL!

Baron Max

Funny considering most of the Arabs are or were armed with Russian equipment, that I do know from my military days, and before that British and French.

So once again ye're having to stoop to comparing other nations' horrible actions to that of what you claim is "the worst of the worst", huh? ....LOL!

Sorta' like comparing different parts of Hell, ain't it? ...LOL!

Baron Max

We are not the ones conducting a War on Terror by killing innocent people.:rolleyes:

More irrelevance. More BS. More blame everyone else.

America- TRUTH JUSTICE & LIBERTY FOR ALL (conditions apply)

We are not the ones conducting a War on Terror by killing innocent people.

No, but the Palestinians are conducting a war on Israel by killing innocent people ...and you seem to support that fully and with vigor.

Baron Max

No, but the Palestinians are conducting a war on Israel by killing innocent people ...and you seem to support that fully and with vigor.

Baron Max

Please show me where I have supported the killing of innocent israelis by Palestinians.

Or take it back. Right now.:mad:

More irrelevance. More BS. More blame everyone else.

What's happening to you, Sam? You're not being yourself these last few posts? Are you feeling alright? You're not sick or something, are you?

I'm growing concerned about you. Please return to your old reliable self.

Baron Max

What's happening to you, Sam? You're not being yourself these last few posts? Are you feeling alright? You're not sick or something, are you?

I'm growing concerned about you. Please return to your old reliable self.

Baron Max

You didn't want me to post links, right.

Fine, I'm giving you my opinion. Undiluted. I have lots of opinions.:p

Please show me where I have supported the killing of innocent israelis by Palestinians.

Or take it back. Right now.:mad:

Sam, you support the Palestinian fight for their "homeland" ...and by extension and implication, you support their methods in that fight. Those methods include firing rockets into Israel and suicide bombings on Israeli citizens.

If you're not supporting that, then what are you supporting? How can you support the Palestinian fight without supporting their actions in that fight?

Baron Max

I am waiting to hear the weasel out that she is going to use for this one.

Sam, you support the Palestinian fight for their "homeland" ...and by extension and implication, you support their methods in that fight. Those methods include firing rockets into Israel and suicide bombings on Israeli citizens.

If you're not supporting that, then what are you supporting? How can you support the Palestinian fight without supporting their actions in that fight?

Baron Max

Does that mean you support this?
Abdullah a-Zakh identified his son's body by the belt. The shoes and socks also looked familiar, irrefutable proof that he had lost his son. In the morgue of Shifa Hospital, after hours of searching, he found the bottom part of the boy's body. The next day, when Operation "Gan Na'ul" - "Locked Kindergarten" - ended and the Israel Defense Forces exited the Saja'iya neighborhood of Gaza, leaving behind 22 dead and large-scale destruction, the other body parts were found.

Mohammed was buried twice. He was 14 years old at the time of his death. He was killed last week, three days before the start of the new school year, so he never got to enter ninth grade.

Last Tuesday his sister came to the house and said there was a wounded boy on Mansura Street. Abdullah rushed to Shifa Hospital. "I looked everywhere but couldn't find him. I thought maybe he was in surgery, but no. I had a feeling that Mohammed was a shahid [martyr].

"I thought maybe he was transferred to another hospital and I sent relatives to look in Al-Quds Hospital. They didn't find him there. The feeling that he was a shahid grew stronger. I thought that if he was not in the hospital, he must be lying at the place where he was killed. It would be very hard to get there and get him out. We know that if anyone is wounded there, no one can get close enough to get him out. We know that the army shoots at anyone who approaches there, even at rescue parties. There were cases of people who tried to rescue the wounded and were shot.

"Then I thought he must be in the hospital refrigerator. I asked my cousins to go and check. There were a few shahids there, and they saw them, but they came back and said they did not find Mohammed. The feeling that Mohammed was a shahid grew stronger in me. But there was no announcement.

"I decided to go to the morgue and look. I went in but I didn't find Mohammed. Then I saw half a body, the only one that was not identified. I saw that it was Mohammed's half-body. By the belt. It's a belt that I bought him. And the shoes he wore. I looked at the socks and I knew it was Mohammed. I was sure it was Mohammed. The upper half of the body had disappeared.

"Mohammed was killed by two shells fired by a tank, and both shells hit him. Mohammed is fourteen years and four months old. He was not armed and he didn't know what a weapon was. They saw that he was a boy. Maybe he went there to see the defenders, maybe he wanted to take part. Maybe he threw stones at a tank. They fired a shell at him. That is Mohammed's story and that is the end of Mohammed."

Mohammed was buried that day. The next day, last Wednesday, when the IDF left Mansura, they went to the killing place to look for the other half of Mohammed. They found his body parts together with the body parts of Yusri Abu Jabber, a press photographer for the Al-Quds network, who was also killed there. The rest of Mohammed's body was buried on Wednesday. Abdullah, the father: "Mohammed was a schoolboy. That is the whole story of Mohammed. It happens every day, every day. Can a boy like this, like Mohammed, be a danger to them? And if he was a danger to them, they could have wounded him instead of killing him. They could have thrown a teargas grenade at him. Even if he was a danger to them, you don't fire a shell at him."

You didn't want me to post links, right.

Links are fine, Sam, ....IF.... those links are actually true, and have been agreed to be all of the people on Earth. If not, then they're nothing but someone's opinion that's been put up on some website.

If you could post a link, then show how it's absolutely, uncontested, factual, truthful, verifiable truth, then please do so.

Fine, I'm giving you my opinion. Undiluted. I have lots of opinions.:p

Yes, that's fine. But you seem overly angry and touchy ....almost like that opinionated prick Baron Max, for god's sake! :D

Baron Max

Links are fine, Sam, ....IF.... those links are actually true, and have been agreed to be all of the people on Earth. If not, then they're nothing but someone's opinion that's been put up on some website.

If you could post a link, then show how it's absolutely, uncontested, factual, truthful, verifiable truth, then please do so.

Thats not how it works. I post the link then YOU show me why its not irrefutable. See? You got to work too.:)

Yes, that's fine. But you seem overly angry and touchy ....almost like that opinionated prick Baron Max, for god's sake! :D

Baron Max

Ya thats who I was trying to be.:D

Just told myself to act like I'm on my period.

Does that mean you support this?

Yes, because you didn't give anything else that would be the opposing point of view ...nor anything that would substantiate any of the claims/opiinions stated in that article. What you posted, and usually post, is sensationalist articles without any, or with very damned little, verifiable facts or evidence.

By posting that article, ye're showing support for 'whoever' is noted in such posts as the victims.

Baron Max

Yes, because you didn't give anything else that would be the opposing point of view ...nor anything that would substantiate any of the claims/opiinions stated in that article. What you posted, and usually post, is sensationalist articles without any, or with very damned little, verifiable facts or evidence.

By posting that article, ye're showing support for 'whoever' is noted in such posts as the victims.

Baron Max

Simple. Now close your eyes and pretend it was an Israeli boy.

Thats not how it works. I post the link then YOU show me why its not irrefutable. See? You got to work too.:)

Nope, that ain't how it works .....and you know damned well it ain't!

Just told myself to act like I'm on my period.

Oh, my god!! In that case, I ain't talkin' to you no more today!!!! :D

Baron Max

Simple. Now close your eyes and pretend it was an Israeli boy.

I do the same with sensationalist posts, links, articles, newscasts, etc. None of it is to be believed without substantiating, factual evidence.

Sam, I'm getting to the point now that I don't believe anything that I read or hear, and I'm becoming concerned about the crap that I see with my own eyes! Nothing is that truth anymore, and anyone who believes things that they read on websites or newspapers or newscasts is making a big, big mistake.

Baron Max

I do the same with sensationalist posts, links, articles, newscasts, etc. None of it is to be believed without substantiating, factual evidence.

Sam, I'm getting to the point now that I don't believe anything that I read or hear, and I'm becoming concerned about the crap that I see with my own eyes! Nothing is that truth anymore, and anyone who believes things that they read on websites or newspapers or newscasts is making a big, big mistake.

Baron Max

Yes I know. I learned that lesson the first time when I went to the ME and realised how much hype we are fed about the people there. Also a second time after I went to the US and realised how much hype they feed their people there. Nowadays I make sure not to form judgements based on internet sites. But they are the only ones I can use here.

Lebanon took in the Palestinians and were rewarded for their pains by Israeli occupation for 18 years and war after war. Can they afford so many plus the wars (415,000 Palestinian refugees)?
I don't think they really 'took them in' in terms of treating them equally ... the Palestinians just arrived, the PLO set up a state-within-a-state, and voila, civil war, with Syria and Israel joining in later.

The 16 million ethnic Germans expelled from eastern Europe were taken in by Germany ... the millions of Hindu and Muslim refugees expelled from Pakistan and India were taken in by India and Pakistan ... the 800 000 Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries after '48 and couldn't go elsewhere were taken in by Israel.

There's no way Israel can take in 4 million Palestinians. Other countries are going to have to make an effort here too. And a real effort, not just letting them remain in refugee camps.

Irrelevant. Is the US willing to take ALL the refugees? 6 million.
It's an idea... http://www.twostarsforpeace.com/

Far far less than those killed by the weapons made in the USA.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
That gives the estimate as under 5000 since 2001. Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Casualties) says Black September is estimated at 3000-5000+...

Yes I know. ...... But they are the only ones I can use here.

Read 'em, enjoy 'em, but don't believe 'em until you have absolute, irrefutable proof about the event from every point of view in the world, and every point of view from every person on Earth. Then and only then can you sort through it all and make up your own mind based on what you then know.

Everyone on Earth lies, Sam, and they do it for purely selfish reasons. There are many people who'd rather climb a tree and tell a lie, than stand on the ground and tell the truth.

Just don't believe nothin' and you'll be far better off, and certainly happier. Just like your belief in your own nation ....hold onto it and belief it. I think good ol' patriotism is not nearly such a bad thing as we all make it out to be. The problem is that you have to hold it in your heart, not let it spill out of your mouth.

Baron Max

I don't think they really 'took them in' in terms of treating them equally ... the Palestinians just arrived, the PLO set up a state-within-a-state, and voila, civil war, with Syria and Israel joining in later.


And the 18 years of occupation?

The 16 million ethnic Germans expelled from eastern Europe were taken in by Germany ... the millions of Hindu and Muslim refugees expelled from Pakistan and India were taken in by India and Pakistan ... the 800 000 Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries after '48 and couldn't go elsewhere were taken in by Israel.

And they were helped financially immediately by the West.

There's no way Israel can take in 4 million Palestinians. Other countries are going to have to make an effort here too. And a real effort, not just letting them remain in refugee camps.

Do the Palestinians have a choice here? What if they don't want to go elsewhere?


That gives the estimate as under 5000 since 2001. Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Casualties) says Black September is estimated at 3000-5000+..

Is anyone doing a body count?

Isn't it 3:1? 3 Palestinians for every Israeli? Collective punishment?

Read 'em, enjoy 'em, but don't believe 'em until you have absolute, irrefutable proof about the event from every point of view in the world, and every point of view from every person on Earth. Then and only then can you sort through it all and make up your own mind based on what you then know.

Everyone on Earth lies, Sam, and they do it for purely selfish reasons. There are many people who'd rather climb a tree and tell a lie, than stand on the ground and tell the truth.

Just don't believe nothin' and you'll be far better off, and certainly happier. Just like your belief in your own nation ....hold onto it and belief it. I think good ol' patriotism is not nearly such a bad thing as we all make it out to be. The problem is that you have to hold it in your heart, not let it spill out of your mouth.

Baron Max

I'm glad you don't swallow all this propaganda. Don't support the war in Iraq. Don't believe that there are terrorists out to get the US.

And the 18 years of occupation?
That came later. Syria's occupation was even longer.

And they were helped financially immediately by the West.
Isn't there oil money in the Arab world? I'm sure the West will give cash too. Heck, they've been giving Egypt around half of what they give Israel, just for signing a treaty. I'm sure they'd love to have money being used for something better than European homes for Mrs Arafat.

in 1962, the UNCCP’s land expert, Frank E. Jarvis, devised a plan to compensate refugees that never was made public.
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/archives.asp?xid=1254

I don't have the reference with me, but I think America had several plans to compensate the refugees in Arab countries and help them settle there, to encourage peace...

Do the Palestinians have a choice here? What if they don't want to go elsewhere?
I'm talking about the ones that already are elsewhere. As far as choice goes, I'm pretty sure any Palestinian thinking about it rationally wouldn't choose to return to a tiny country together with a group of 4 million.

Anyway, I agree with the two principles Jimmy Carter summarises his book's message with:

Olmert needs a peace plan that involves ending the occupation, since you can't make peace with someone who plans to control you. If he can't do that, there's always the next election. Haniyeh needs a peace plan that involves recognising Israel, since you can't make peace with someone who plans to destroy you. If he can't do that, there's always the next election.

Hmm: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/811997.html

This could make things interesting. Or just disappointing.

Hmm: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/811997.html

This could make things interesting. Or just disappointing.

Looks like Hamas are getting ready for elections.

I don't have the reference with me, but I think America had several plans to compensate the refugees in Arab countries and help them settle there, to encourage peace...

Bet none of them involved taking them to the US. I love how Westerners play chess with the people of the ME as pawns.


I'm talking about the ones that already are elsewhere. As far as choice goes, I'm pretty sure any Palestinian thinking about it rationally wouldn't choose to return to a tiny country together with a group of 4 million.

Not necessarily. India is almost a billion, but expats are rushing back at the prospect of being able to work and live in India with a booming economy.

Anyway, I agree with the two principles Jimmy Carter summarises his book's message with:

Olmert needs a peace plan that involves ending the occupation, since you can't make peace with someone who plans to control you. If he can't do that, there's always the next election. Haniyeh needs a peace plan that involves recognising Israel, since you can't make peace with someone who plans to destroy you. If he can't do that, there's always the next election.
Sad, but true.

Jordan: gave West Bank Palestinians citizenship while occupying it, but recalled it after '67. Palestinians were treated quite well in Jordan itself, except when Arafat tried to take control of the country. In the ensuing violence, which came to be known as Black September, the Jordanian Army murdered thousands of Palestinians. The PLO, expelled, made its new headquarters in Lebanon.

Lebanon: no citizenship, and precious few other rights.
http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/lebanon.html

Syria: not that I know of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

Egypt: Occupied Gaza for 18 years, but didn't give the inhabitants Egyptian citizenship.

Israel: gave citizenship to Palestinians still in Israel. Hasn't offered citizenship to the majority of Palestinians in the '67 occupied territories. In areas 'formerly' annexed (East Jerusalem, Golan Heights - although these aren't recognised as such internationally) it gave residents the option of acquiring Israeli citizenship if they agreed to recognise Israeli law, and to renounce previous citizenships.


However, the 2002 Saudi Peace Plan does call for a resettlement of many refugees in Arab countries, excluding Lebanon due to the delicate demographic balance between Christians and Muslims there.The problems the countries I mentioned had with the Palestinians are all decades old.

But they still haven't let them work, have savings accounts, enjoy the privileges of citizenship, in the countries they were born in, The Palestinians have been refuges for 58 years, that longer than the Israelites wandered in the desert, and the Arabs haven't done a thing to settle the problem, I have a question, if the Palestinians did recover Israel what would they do about the Palestinians that accepted Israeli Citizenship? do you see any reprisals happening, I have my suspicions, and if what I have seen from the Arabs, the Israeli Palestinians will be on the chopping block with the Jew's.

But they still haven't let them work, have savings accounts, enjoy the privileges of citizenship, in the countries they were born in, The Palestinians have been refuges for 58 years, that longer than the Israelites wandered in the desert, and the Arabs haven't done a thing to settle the problem, I have a question, if the Palestinians did recover Israel what would they do about the Palestinians that accepted Israeli Citizenship? do you see any reprisals happening, I have my suspicions, and if what I have seen from the Arabs, the Israeli Palestinians will be on the chopping block with the Jew's.

Baron Max,

What if you couldn't get work either. So no work for you. Basically you must live in a Box with your family and eat from a Tin Can.

Also suppose the people living in what used to be your home (before it was stolen from you) didn't really like you much - indirectly they ensured you didn't get hired.

So now what?
Michael


Also:
Assuming the person used guns and bombs against you and your family to steal your home: What exactly did you mean when you wrote:
If I'd been that strong, he'd not have taken my house!

Baron Max, What if you couldn't get work either. So no work for you. Basically you must live in a Box with your family and eat from a Tin Can.

Why stop there? Why not give my wife breast cancer and pussy cancer. Give my children Downs Syndrome as well as liver cancer and make them crippled, too? Hell, while ye're at it, why not assume that we haven't eaten or drank water for 4,000 days in sweltering heat during the day, and freezing, sub-zero temperatures at night? Hey, I know, you can also assume that Hamas is brainwashing me into believing that if I kill some Israelis, then they'll save my family, wipping out the cancer and the Downs Syndrome as well?

Why stop assuming things for your little scenario? Give me more, more, more, ...give me dire conditions that only Superman could endure! Hell, give me testicular cancer and pecker cancer, too!

What exactly did you mean when you wrote:
If I'd been that strong, he'd not have taken my house!

You can't understand those simple words? If I'm strong enough to take back my house, how did I lose it in the first place? And if they kicked me out the first time, how could I hold it even if I could take it back?

Baron Max

Baron Max, What if you couldn't get work either. So no work for you. Basically you must live in a Box with your family and eat from a Tin Can.

Why stop there? Why not give my wife breast cancer and pussy cancer. Give my children Downs Syndrome as well as liver cancer and make them crippled, too? Hell, while ye're at it, why not assume that we haven't eaten or drank water for 4,000 days in sweltering heat during the day, and freezing, sub-zero temperatures at night? Hey, I know, you can also assume that Hamas is brainwashing me into believing that if I kill some Israelis, then they'll save my family, wipping out the cancer and the Downs Syndrome as well?

Why stop assuming things for your little scenario? Give me more, more, more, ...give me dire conditions that only Superman could endure! Hell, give me testicular cancer and pecker cancer, too!

What exactly did you mean when you wrote:
If I'd been that strong, he'd not have taken my house!

You can't understand those simple words? If I'm strong enough to take back my house, how did I lose it in the first place? And if they kicked me out the first time, how could I hold it even if I could take it back?

Baron Max

Why stop there? Why not give my wife breast cancer and pussy cancer. Give my children Downs Syndrome as well as liver cancer and make them crippled, too? Many Palestinians can not find work - it's a fair comment.

You can't understand those simple words? If I'm strong enough to take back my house, how did I lose it in the first place? And if they kicked me out the first time, how could I hold it even if I could take it back?

Baron MaxSo by "strong enough" does this include suicide bombs? I mean if it keeps you your house?

MII

So by "strong enough" does this include suicide bombs? I mean if it keeps you your house?

How could killing myself, even if I took out some other innocent people, get my house back, get me a job, and help save my family?? Please explaint that to me, okay?

Baron Max

On topic:
You are avoiding my question. So, you’re your typical broke down-and-out refugee who has lost his home and lives on UN handouts. What do you do?

Off Topic/Side Topic:
As to killing innocent people.
During the “War on Terror” has the USA killed any innocent people – this week? In the past many Iraqis starved to death, maybe a million under the USA sponsored UN sanctions. Or so I thought? As to killing yourself - many people are sent on missions considered suicidal - even by US generals. Working in someplace in Iraq or in during the Vietnam War, WWII or WWI - for examples. Why would you expect something different from another group of fighters? When you win the war your family gets their stolen home back.

Michael

How could killing myself, even if I took out some other innocent people, get my house back, get me a job, and help save my family?? Please explaint that to me, okay?

Baron Max

Thats not the idea at all; the idea is to fight with what's left, in most cases only your self.

The cruelty of the occupation has been sharply condemned by international and Israeli human rights groups for many years. The purpose of Israel's state terror, economic strangulation and daily humiliation is not obscure. It was articulated in the early years of the occupation by Moshe Dayan, one of Israel's leaders most sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, who advised his Labor Party associates to tell the Palestinians that “you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave”.

The court suggested that “some good for the residents of neighbouring [Palestinian villages] might spring from the economic and cultural development” of the all-Jewish city. While they try to survive without water to drink or fields to cultivate, the people whose lands have been taken can enjoy the sight of the ample housing, green lawns, swimming pools and other amenities of the heavily subsidised Israeli settlements.

Immediately after World War II, the Geneva Conventions were adopted to bar repetition of Nazi crimes, including transfer of population to occupied territories or actions that harm civilians. As a so-called high contracting party, the US is obligated “to ensure respect” for the conventions.

With Israel alone opposed, the United Nations has repeatedly declared the conventions applicable to the occupied territories; the US abstains from these votes, unwilling to take a public stand in violation of fundamental principles of international law, which require it to act to prevent settlement and expropriation, attacks on civilians with US-supplied helicopters, collective punishment and all other repressive measures used by the occupying forces.

Washington has continued to provide the means to implement these practices, refusing even to allow observers who might reduce violence and protect the victims.

For 25 years, there has been a near-unanimous international consensus on the terms of political settlement: a full peace treaty with establishment of a Palestinian state after Israeli withdrawal, an outcome that enjoys wide support even within Israel. It has been blocked by Washington ever since its veto of a Security Council resolution to that effect in 1976.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2002/497/28039

But they still haven't let them work, have savings accounts, enjoy the privileges of citizenship, in the countries they were born in, The Palestinians have been refuges for 58 years, that longer than the Israelites wandered in the desert, and the Arabs haven't done a thing to settle the problem, I have a question, if the Palestinians did recover Israel what would they do about the Palestinians that accepted Israeli Citizenship? do you see any reprisals happening, I have my suspicions, and if what I have seen from the Arabs, the Israeli Palestinians will be on the chopping block with the Jew's.There is no reason surrounding nations should absorb Palestine's people. This would erase Israel's quandry quite nicely, simply castrate their nationality from them and they vanish into neighboring states.
Palestinians are not Jordanian or Egyptian or Syrian.
If Israel were to dissolve and Palestine emerges Palestinians that lived and worked in Israel, aiding the Occupation should certainly pay the price of treason and supporting a terrorist rogue state.

Really? most of the so called Palestinians to day are really members of what ever country they were born in, the vast majority of them have no connection with the lands encompassed by Israel, which was a mandate, never a country, there never was a country called Palestine.

Really? most of the so called Palestinians to day are really members of what ever country they were born in, the vast majority of them have no connection with the lands encompassed by Israel, which was a mandate, never a country, there never was a country called Palestine.Like the Kurds. Some are Turk some Iraqi some Azeri, but they are a distinct people without a country. There never was a Kurdistan either, does that mean there never will be? There never was