Its apparent that Sharon has beaten Netanyahu for the Likud nomination and will probably crush his labor opponet in the election.

So the old military hero is still in office. Can he make his second term more like Churchill and less like Chamberlin?

I believe that Israel must fight even harder in the War on Terrorism. Its such a blatent hypocracy that Israel, which has easily suffered more under terror attacks than the US ever has, is held to a completely different standard than us. I understand that the Middle East is an extreamly shakey place, BUT, the Israelis aren't fighting like they should be.

I would issue the ultimate ultimatium: The Palestinian Authority, which is practically a terror haven just like al-Qaeda or Iran, stop all support of terrorism and send Arafat into exile or into the hands of a world or Israeli court. If this is not done than the PA, will ceese to exist. Israel, to end the terror next door, and resolve the problem should do the following:

1) Initate a massive military operation into Southern Lebannon and wipe out Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, etc. This way further action won't be taken under the threat of a terrorist gun pointed at Israel's head. This would be done in tandem with a US led attack against all Hezbollah targets in S. America, the Middle East, Asian and fundraising operations in the US.

2) Once Iraq is knocked off, the PA and Arafat should be dissolved. Try Arafat for war crimes. Set up a new PA, under the leadership of the US and Israel, with envoys from the former Palestnian government. UN supervision may be needed, but the UN hasn't had the greatest track-record with building governments...

3) Remove all possible Jewish settlements in Palestnian territory. If this cannot be done, partition some land from Jordon, to make up for the difference, when Palestine is created.

4) After the new transition gov't is supplanted, hold democratic elections inside Palestine.

Problem solved. No more terrorism from across the border, and the Palestinians will get the fare, democratic nation they deserve. Plus, the end of Israeli colonization.

Just my idea. Let's hear yours.

Aren't you the guy that lives only 30 miles from the great nation of canada? do they have cable tv up there?

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Israel isn't fighting like it should be
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Actually Israel is fighting like it shouldn't be, as long as hardliners on both sides of the camp are in leading positions there WILL NOT be an end to the conflict, this is not some small mob you can round up with millitary force alone, you gonna need to kill almost ALL the muslims before you are sure that "peace" has settelt. You think that is a realistic idea???

And comparing Sharon with Churchill is like comparing Stalin with Roosevelt

No one is perfect. Sharon has done more than anyone in Israel to instigate the problem. He was Agriculture Minister which allowed him to push for the settlments. Now, I'm not saying that killing Muslims, a few or all of them, would solve the problem.

I was saying that the government of Palestine, the PA, is corrupt and sponsores terrorism. The United States wiped out the Taliban and went after al-Qaeda, but because the PA lives next door, and has "sympathy" from Arab countries, it cannot be subject to the same action as we have taken against Afghanistan or other terrorist-sponsoring nations.

They offered practically everything to Arafat under Clinton. Arafat didn't get what he wanted, so he started a little intifada. Too bad it got out of control and has lasted 2.5 years.

For the juxtoposition to Churchill and Chamberlin, I was hinting at the idea that Sharon, by in large, has laid down to the terrorist. He has used, minor, uneffective, "tit-for-tat" tactics against them, with no result.

Either step up the fight or back down and be destroyed.

Maybe you are right, maybe we should, instead of using minor "tit for tat" use major tactics, like 2 eyes and your left arm for each eye of us.

At least that's what Al Quaida is propagating, have you considered signing up for one of their suicide missions, you the type of misguided action man they are looking for...

Once again you misconstrude what I'm saying.

A proportional response is logical, neither is the slaughter of civilians. I'm sorry but the terrorists have been killing more civilians than the Israelis have lately. Palestinians that are being killed, are mostly, combatants.

Please your desperate attempts at forumlating a winning argument bore me.

Curly, put down the crack and put up your hands. Slowly.

Israel should back down and stop slaughtering muslims. Sure, muslims killed civilians but what about the time Israel bulldozed civilian structs? You call that "doing much to instigate the problem"? I doubt it. Just look up my profile and read "fave quote". Sharon a man to lead Israel? Heck, then according to your reasoning the US needed the witch hunter McCarthy for President. You should also realize that the losers and underdogs here are the muslims here, the jews are certainly equipped with overgrown armies. All because they're adept at burrowing their noses up US ass.

If Sharon has a microgram of intelligence, which he obviously doesn't, he'd assassinate Arafat and make it look like locals killed him. Then utilize world pressure to make Palestine vote for another leader and cabinet. Then Israel should make a gift of some land to settle the Palestinians.


Nah, Al Qaeda wouldn't want curly. He'd get rejected for being too proIsrael. :p

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Bah. They're going to kill each other until they get tired of killing each other, or somebody uses a nuke.

Arafat needs to be eliminated. By Israel, the Palestinians, by Scooby Doo, it makes no real difference. Arafat is a massive problem. Sharon isn't exactly a surgical military commander, but its better than having a dove in office.


Israel is held to a double standard, one which the US isn't. It isn't fair for the Jews to be bound by a doctorine of proportional strikes.

I think Arafat and Hezbollah go bye-bye when Iraq falls. Its all part of the strategy.

In the 1990s, the PLO asked Khidir Hamaza, Saddam Hussein's cheif nuclear weapons scientist to make two or three nuclear bombs for them.

They wanted to detonate one in the desert to show the Israel they had something to bargain with.

Tell me the PLO, or Arafat, is a peace-loving, doe-eyed organization.

Aren't we trying to disarm tyrants like Hussein and Kim Jong Il?

Bah, the Isrealis should get pushed off into the mediterranian.

At least NoKo hasn't done dumbass moves as Hussein did. He mostly sat there, chillin', and making nukes. Don't tell me the US is gonna try to take out NoKo now! That would be more than US can handle. NoKo's armies are downright scary. Much better trained than your standard wussie GI.

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

North Korea isn't relavent in this discussion.

And for YKJesus, you are obviously an anti-semitic racist. I'm sorry you feel that way.

[3) Remove all possible Jewish settlements in Palestnian territory. If this cannot be done, partition some land from Jordon, to make up for the difference, when Palestine is created.


Curly, if we were to follow your idea, is Jordon going to sit still while part of their land is given away just like that? Why drag Jordon in to begin with? Why is removal of Jewish settlements negotiable? If they had occupy Palestinian land, then they should leave. Period.

Curly, check your pvt msgs.
regards, 'dog

JORDAN=Palestine. (Not "Jordon") the current population of Jordan is 70% Palistinian.

Originally posted by thecurly1
North Korea isn't relavent in this discussion.

And for YKJesus, you are obviously an anti-semitic racist. I'm sorry you feel that way.

YKJ did not mention pushing all Semitic people into the sea. Only Israelis. It seems to me he is ok with other Semitic peoples. So why would you call him anti-Semitic?

Obviously they don't know we are not buying into that "you are anti-semitic" crap anymore. The second worldwar has been over half a century ago and them hardliners on both sites are so blinded they really try hard to start a new worldwar by themselves...

yasser arafat a terrorist ? If so than Sharon must be also, you be the judge.

Jordan = Palestine, Jordan is an "indian reservate" at best. Actually by occupying Palestine in 1948, 2 lands were robbed of their identity, Palestine and Jordan that has been flooded with refugees.

Since then some spindoctors waged a succesfull campaign to have Palestine called "israel" in the media and topographic maps, you know like the germans used to include parts of Austria and Sudetenland in their maps to make it appear it naturally belonged to the upcoming german empire

If people like sharon have their way they will continu to pursue the Jordan = Palestine model and build jewish settlements in the land in between. Every now and then a bright american president will come to power and tell the "israeli" government to stop building settlements and invest in peace, otherwise american loans and fundings might be suspended. Usually some symbolical action will be taken and temporarily the building is slowed a bit, but never halted, cause after all, they know, after each bright american president will come a "moron", like bush and the settlement policy can be sped up again. It reminds me a bit of the Saddam Hussain tactics of divide et empera and playing innocent when international pressure builds up. Once the pressure subsides he will continue his efforts.


Maybe just maybe, if this evil masterplan is carried out for a 150 years than indeed Palestine = Israel indeed and Jordan = Palestine. But meanwhile angry natives will blow themselves up killing our children. What a price to pay!!!

Maybe if Palestine is fully cleared of palestines , it would be easier for israelis to do their internal security, but I can predict the Palestines nor their "muslimbrothers" will ever forget and would seize the oppertunity to drop some nuclear bomb on tel aviv when possible.

Jordan=Palestine

So what? That still doesn't give the Jewish settlers right to go in and occupy lands. And if you give in far enough, they will eventually start to occupy Jordanian land. Then what - partition the next bordering country to make up the difference?

The point is, if the settlers occuppied Palestinian land, then they must leave. Short of that, the Palestinians will never be pacified. Why should they go somewhere else just to make way for the settlers?

Curly, you are obviously an anti-Arab racist because you hate Saddam and Arafat.

And Arafat is a terrorist? If he is, he's certainly much more covert than those other bomb-throwing suicide-bombing baby-killing rascals. When's the last time you heard a report on TV about him suicide bombing a pizza parlor? Or attacking Palestinian inhabitants of a Jewish settlement? Duh.

Arafat may have a messy past, but at the moment he is trying to clean up the PLO.

If you think people should be judged by their pasts, then why not go assasinate Sharon? Take a look at his military history, he slaughtered whole villages of innocents and admitted to it.

They're going to kill each other until they get tired of killing each other, or somebody uses a nuke.

Unfortunately, several centuries have not slaked the killing thirst. I am afraid you are right in your assumption, either that or bioweapons.

Perhaps I should march over there and blow a thermonuke. I made one yesterday...a hobby of mine :D

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Yeah, I'm an anti-Arab racist. Nice try, using some reverse commentary on me. I never said to "wipe Palestine off the planet" a similar notion that a member held with Israel.

Listen, killing Sharon wouldn't matter. Israel is a democracy. Palestine is not. It is a dictatorship. Don't tell me its not, because you could make the same claim with Iraq. Saddam is techincally President Saddam Hussein. They hold "elections" too.

If Sharon got a bullet through the head, Netayahu would win the election. He would be just as hawkish, if not more, than Sharon and continue with military policies. Arafat started the intifada, has provided monetary support to terror groups.

A terrorist doesn't have to be committing the act to be a terrorist. Example: Osama bin Laden.

If Arafat was trying to clean up the PLO, his police force, which is the largest in proportion to land, would be stopping the bombers at the border. Regardless of action taken against the police by Israel, it still functions quite well.

Terrorists aren't in the interest of any leader. Sharon's people die by them, and Arafats people are marred, disgraced and die as a result of suicide bombers blowing themselves up in Tel Aviv or wherever.

Arafat could ask for help to rid Palestine of the terrorists. He hasn't because he is in bed with them.

Who doesn't hate Saddam? His people hate him. Does that make every Iraqi an anti-Arab racist? Highly unlikely.

Mmm, well not everyone in Saddam's country hates him. I saw it in TIME mag, there are pics of the common people hailing him, and they looked dead serious. For more info just check out TIME, and please don't launch weapons at me. I just saw it.

So Palestine is a dictatorship. So what? Well, Arafat does rely on the extremist groups for support. It's possibly his invisible army, like the infested terrans in starcraft. (sorry, random analogy)

Well, I still think getting rid of Arafat quietly and pretending one of the resistance groups did it would be the best thing for the Israelis to do, if they had brains enough. Sharon could make some hypocritical speeches on how he regrets the fall of a leader, then pop some champagne with the agents that killed him. And go to bed w/o worries. What's stopping him? Killing civilians won't help, it's the root of the problem in the Middle East that needs to be removed. And he would do well to stop hogging the land.


__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Well, I still think getting rid of Arafat quietly and pretending one of the resistance groups did it would be the best thing for the Israelis to do, if they had brains enough. Sharon could make some hypocritical speeches on how he regrets the fall of a leader

*SMACKS everyone at Mossad for not using their brains*

Propose Zero to take over as Mossad chief.:D

The notion of how to fight 'terrorists' (as the Israelis see it) or occupation (as the Arabs and I see it) is really just a red-herring.

It is quite simple. Everyone (bar extremist Zionists and extremist Arabs) knows that this problem must end with a two state settlement based on pre-1967 borders. That is the solution. By continuing to fight and build settlements Israel is just putting off the final deal. All this killing is entirely unnecessary and I have to say the only people who can make peace are the Israelis, for they can withdraw and create two states. The Palestinians do not have it within their power to create two states, so the burden of peace (and violence) is on Israel.

That simple.

Sharon can continue the killing or cut straight to the chase. He seems to prefer killing. You reap what you sew.

Israel is a democracy.

Everytime somebody says that, it makes me sick. Who is it a democracy for, the Jews, or the Palestinians in the occupied territories??Who did the Palestinians in Gaza vote for in the last Israeli election???

Would the US be a democracy if only Roman-Catholics could vote???

Tom

Canadians don't vote in American elections...

Palestinians living in Israel don't vote in elections because they're
Palestinians -- by definition that means they're not Israeli citizens.

Peace.

thecurly1: " Palestinians that are being killed, are mostly, combatants."

That's no true, Israel kills anyone and as long as is a friend, neighbor, post-man or milk delivery man of a suspected terrorist. He/she is automatically a terrorist sympathizer or supporter. First shoot, next avoid investigation and last, declare it a self defense.

Why US and Israel have always been against foreign observers and implementation of UN observers??? It would sound civilized to have alternative eyewitnesses, or not?

Why Israel has the largest disagreement with UN and world community (check www.un.com) by rejecting resolutions having the US almost in 99% of the UN cases supporting Israel even if the larger community think otherwise.
...wouldn't that be considered as fanatics??

Neither Israel no US can annihilate the Palestinian people. Palestinians have been in that land from beginning of time and they are one original race. On the other hand, the Jews have been expelled from dozens of other countries around the globe for the last 2300 years or so. Why? Is it because the entire world was wrong? Perhaps because the Jews are so perfect and superior that no other country could adjust to them?

I have frequently asked the events of history to Jews, and their answers are really interesting.

Goofyfish,

Palestinians living in Israel don't vote in elections because they're
Palestinians -- by definition that means they're not Israeli citizens.

Israel considers the occupied territories as part of Israel. That makes all of the Palestinians born in the occupied territories, Israelis as well.

Tom

I assume that you mean there is a law that states an individual born in Israel is automatically a citizen. Even if this is the case, Palestinians claim the land is illegally occupied; why should Israeli law apply?

The Canadian hoard invades Illinois via Lake Michigan. A year later you are born - are you Canadian?

Peace.

__________________
When the power of love overcomes the
love of power the world will know peace. --Jimi Hendrix (1942-1970)

Goofyfish,

Even if this is the case, Palestinians claim the land is illegally occupied; why should Israeli law apply?

From the Palestinian side, the land is illegally occupied so Israeli law doesn't apply.

However, from the Israeli point of view, the occupied territories are Israel, so everyone living on these lands are Israeli's as well. If the West Bank is just as much Israel as Tel Aviv, why would Israelis in Tel Aviv have rights that the Israelis in the occupied terrirories don't have.

Let me also remind you that Israeli settlers in the occupied territories have a right to vote in the Israeli elections even though, as you put it, they are technically Palestinians.

What I'm suggesting is that Israel is being hypocritical. Israel has two choices:

1) Palestine is Israel, therefore all Palestinians are Israelis. As a result, all Palestinians should have all the same rights (including voting rights) as any other Israeli citizen.

2) Palestine is not Israel. Israel should get the hell out of Palestine.

In order for Israel to not be hypocritical, it must choose either option 1 or 2. Israel can't have it both ways. You can't claim that a piece of land is Israel, and then say that the people living on that land are not Israelis.

Tom

Goofyfish,

The Canadian hoard invades Illinois via Lake Michigan. A year later you are born - are you Canadian?

Well, if as a result of the invasion, Illinois is considered as being part of Canada by the "Canadian Hoards", then I would be just as much Canadian as the residents of Toronto.

Tom

I agree with you - it is just that your first post was somewhat vague. ;)

So how about the Palestinians, do they get it both ways? They complain that they are excluded from the political process. If they want the vote, do they accept Israeli citizenship? And if they do aren't they no longer Palestians?

Peace.

Goofyfish,

So how about the Palestinians, do they get it both ways? They complain that they are excluded from the political process.

The Palestinians would have to have a referendum. If the majority chooses that they want the right to vote in Israeli elections, then they must accept Israeli citizenship, as well. (and in that case, the occupation ceases to exist).

And if they do aren't they no longer Palestians?

They would be Palesinian Israelis. Just like I can be a Croatian, an Illinois resident, and a US resident all at the same time.

Tom

Just checkin’.
Thanks for the chat!

Peace.

__________________
There are no warlike people, just warlike leaders--Ralph Bunche

Microzoft, that's an irresponsable and unfounded rebuttal. The Israeli's are not interested in killing swaths of Palestinian civilians. If they were they could be doing a much better job at making them bleed. Trust me, Israel has the economic and military clout to do so. It's Arab neighbors wouldn't touch them, or race to the side of the Palestinians because they honestly don't care about them all that much.

As for Israel not agreeing with the UN, I commend them. The UN has been decidedly pro-Palestinian in this matter. That isn't to say that the Arabs in the debate don't have any say, far from it actually, but the UN isn't all that even handed. Plus the UN NEVER accepts force, offensive or defensive, as a solution to anything. The UN wouldn't fight back if Bin Laden blew up the HQ in New York.

I agree with removing the settlers and carving up some kind of autonomous Palestinian region wiht one caveat: the border control and military protection to be under the supervision of Israel. It is hard to imagine that once you have a Palestinian State its behaviour would be anything but agressive towards Israel. There are too much bad blood between the two people.

If Israel watches the border, who is going to watch over them and make sure they don't start encroaching into Palestinian land again? Palestinian may be agressive but Israel can be greedy when it comes to land.

For the foreseeable future Israel cannot agree with a Palestinian state because of the geopolitics of the region. If you look at the map you’ll see that from the presumptive border of a future Palestinian state to Tel-Aviv there are only 15 or 20 miles. So a militarize Palestine, and make no mistake a Palestinian state will be an arms depot for the Arab revisionists, would pose a mortal danger to Israel.
Regarding the land grab: I think that Israel would be extremely accommodating if that will buy security. The number of Israelis will not grow as dramatically as the number of Palestinians, and Israel economy can accommodate a larger number of urbanites than Palestinian economy which is still agrarian.

thecurly1;

Irresponsible and unfounded rebuttal??? Yet you don’t even try to systematically comment to my point of view? OK

Yes, if the Jews wanted to, they could wipe out the Palestinian population, they have the military means. But they don’t really want to, not only because it will be the beginning of their own end, but because by turning own house into fire they would have to kiss their Promised Land goodbye.

The Arab neighbors do give great importance to the Palestinian suffering, however they also know that it will serve no purpose to ad more cooks in the kitchen. The Palestinian case is for most of the Arab world a tactical and strategic conflict for which England, US and Israel can be accounted for.

I could not commend any country that consistently disrespect the international view and will.
..what is there to be commended??

If UN would be attack, it would be natural that they would not fight back. You should know that UN is not a bully hypocritical country, but an international institutions that represents the great majority of neighbors in this globe of us. To see UN as an individual power is a little too short sighted, .. don’t you think?

When radicals attack innocent people on the Israeli side, we condemn the atrocity and it follows a large and severe Israeli revenge. When the Israeli army kills innocent Palestinians, there’s no condemnation and not accountability.

…This use and abuse of power in the absents of intelligence are the bad seeds for which current Israelis would never have to pay a price for it. The next few generations would have to suffer the consequences.

Regarding the land grab: I think that Israel would be extremely accommodating if that will buy security. The number of Israelis will not grow as dramatically as the number of Palestinians, and Israel economy can accommodate a larger number of urbanites than Palestinian economy which is still agrarian.

laurentia, I do not doubt that you would like to see a peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict.

But I find it hard to believe that if in these times of intense conflict the Israelis have no qualms about grabbing lands; they would pass up on the temptation to do so during peace time. If a peaceful solution is actually achieved and both states is to be recognised as souvereign states, than both must be given the right to guard each side of the border.

You also pointed out that the Israel economy can accomodate a larger number of urbanites. Then why are they encroaching into Palestinian land now?