I came accross this article of gay arabic men and the suffering they endure in a society that punishes homosexuals with death.

http://www.freep.com/news/locoak/garab16_20040316.htm

You can expect PM to avoid this thread like the plague. There are those on this forum who will excuse his rantings out of a misplaced sense of cultural relativism. He realizes he would lose their sympathy if he condemned gays to death. But I'm sure that he feels that is a just punishment for their "crimes".

If I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll correct me.

A quick Google search using Islam and gays gave me this.
Now we learn that on January 1, 2002, Saudi Arabian authorities publicly beheaded three gay men after Islamic religious courts in the southwestern city of Abha declared them guilty of "engaging in the extreme obscenity and ugly acts of homosexuality, marrying among themselves and molesting the young," charges obviously exaggerated to provoke public outrage.

With the defeat of the Taliban, Saudi Arabia is now the world's most repressive Islamic regime — with its Taliban-like, truncheon-wielding religious police, a nationwide ban on other religions, state support for fundamentalist religious schools, and complete censorship of media and the Internet.

Troublingly, there have been few noticeable condemnations of the Saudi executions from human rights groups, none from moderate Islamic groups, no expressions of concern from the U.S. or Western European governments.

http://www.indegayforum.org/authors/varnell/varnell84.html

But it seems that at the same time homosexual behavior is very commonplace their. Maybe guys start to look good when the only women you see are wearing bee keeper suits.

I used to have a friend from Egypt. The only thing he ever said about his short stay in an all male Saudi school was, "let's put it this way; I'm not gay".

I suppose it is just one more reason us decadent westerners have to be destroyed. Arab gays are getting the idea that they shouldn't have to hide or risk death merely for being who they are.

I came accross this article of gay arabic men and the suffering they endure in a society that punishes homosexuals with death.

http://www.freep.com/news/locoak/garab16_20040316.htm

Funny, this was not how islam started:
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/www/world/europe/turkey/islamottoman.htm

When I was in the USAF, one of the supervisors in my unit, said that when he was in Wheeless AFB in Libya.He said that during Ramadan, muslims had sodomy to give birth to the madhi (the muslim messiah), since tradition said that the madhi would be born of a man????? and while I was in college, a friend that had been station in Turkey, said the same thing, that that was the reason that many Turks wore those weird trousers with the baggy bottoms, because men had to check their poop, to make sure that the madhi wasn't there. I didn't make this up, I find it interesting that 20 years apart, two USAF airman had heard the same story in two very different countries. If you practice sodomy during Ramadan, you are not 'gay', but it does make you 'festive'. True or false? Check it out.

Interestingly, there seems to be an obvious pro-homosexual reference in the Quran. Where Muhammed, talks about nubile young boys, and beautiful virgins, in heaven for the taking of the good muslim men.

hey, here is a site about what islam now believes:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=72432

I find it interesting that no muslim has touched this thread with a ten foot pole, could it mean something, like there is some shame to this, maybe a little truth?

Never thought I'd see the word 'nubile' be attached to 'boys'.

:eek:

Never thought I'd see the word 'nubile' be attached to 'boys'.

nubile? check "gay islam" or "islam sex" sites, you will see many references to nubile boys, not just as the 72 virgins in paradise
http://www.globalgayz.com/Muslimgay-news98-02.html
Sex as Power; Denial as Safety
Sexual relations in Middle Eastern societies have historically articulated social hierarchies, that is, dominant and subordinate social positions: adult men on top; women, boys and slaves below. The distinction made by modern Western "sexuality" between sexual and gender identity, that is, between kinds of sexual predilections [and] degrees of masculinity and femininity, has, until recently, had little resonance in the Middle East. Both dominant/subordinate and heterosexual/homosexual categorizations are structures of power. They position people as powerful or powerless, "normal" or "deviant." The contemporary concept of "queerness" resists all such categorizing in favor of recognizing more complex realities of multiple and shifting positions of sexuality, identity and power.

In early 1993, news of President Clinton's proposal to end the US military's ban on service by homosexuals prompted a young Egyptian man in Cairo, eager to practice his English, to ask me why the president wanted "to ruin the American army" by admitting "those who are not men or women." When asked if "those" would include a married man who also liked to have sex with adolescent boys, he unhesitatingly answered "no." For this Egyptian, a Western "homosexual" was not readily comprehensible as a man or a woman, while a man who had sex with both women and boys was simply doing what men do. It is not the existence of same-sex sexual relations that is new but their association with essentialist sexual identities rather than hierarchies of age, class or status.



You can use "man boy sex" as key words

or check these sites out to name a few

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/ramadan/archives/000282.php

http://archive.salon.com/health/sex/urge/world/2000/01/07/kuwait/

Homosexuality has been found in all races and cultures. It was prominent and accepted in the Roman Empire. The Caesars took young boys as lovers so as not to commit adultry. Some were made eunuchs so they would retain that "nubile" physique known as gynecomastia or the plump "nubile" breasts of young boys. Get real, people. There are fewer homosexual Muslims than homosexual Christians. Homosexuality was the religious practice of the Essenes (the semen drinking ritual) which eventually turned into "the body and blood of Christ" as the Eucharist. Paul, himself, may have been gay, and his partner may have been Timothy. We discussed this not long ago. Homosexuality has been known and condoned throughout history. It ain't gonna go away, boys.

There are fewer homosexual Muslims than homosexual Christians.

You mean there are fewer REPORTED homosexual Muslims than homosexual Christians.

Not surprising. Afterall gays are being exterminated in Islamic states....

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/hanged1.jpg

hey, here is a site about what islam now believes:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=72432

I find it interesting that no muslim has touched this thread with a ten foot pole, could it mean something, like there is some shame to this, maybe a little truth?

From that site :

Al-Bayhaqi reported in his book Shu`ab al-Iman on the authority of Abu ad-Dunya that Abd al-`Aziz ibn Abi Hazim related from Dawud ibn Bakr who related from Muhammad ibn al-Mukadir the following:

Khalid Ibn al-Walid wrote to Abu Bakr [seeking the legal ruling] concerning a man with whom another man had sexual intercourse. Thereupon, Abu Bakr gathered the Companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and sought their opinion. `Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, was the strictest of all, saying, 'Only one nation disobeyed Allah by committing such sin and you know how Allah dealt with them. I see that we should burn the man with fire.’ The Companions unanimously agreed on this.

This fatwa against homosexuality issued within 2 years of the death of Mohammad. During Abu Bakr's Caliphate. Not only this, fatwas against "mutta" (temporary marriage) and "drinking" also issued within 10 years of Mohammad's death, during caliph Umar's period, though there is no explicit prohibition/punishment for these in Quran.

Islam does not take linient view as widely believed in homosexual circles. Certain pleasure loving sultans might have taken linient view but if the Ulama rules (theocracy like taliban), it would send them to hell/paradise as soon as they are caught. :p

Homosexuality has been found in all races and cultures. true, some more than others


Homosexuality was the religious practice of the Essenes (the semen drinking ritual) you never provided verifiable links to this so-called practice, why hasn't it come out in BAR, or some college or archeology journal? why is that? because you & the new agers made it up?
ogh, sounds like bad*medicine, again



which eventually turned into "the body and blood of Christ" as the Eucharist. only people like you would believe this, maybe for satanists, wishfull thinking, you need medicine, woman

Paul, himself, may have been gay, and his partner may have been Timothy. Paul may or may not have been gay (if that was the thorn he was writing about), but he still condemned the practice, why?



We discussed this not long ago. Homosexuality has been known and condoned throughout history. It ain't gonna go away, boys.

& ended up in circles, no resolution, where are the links to journals? come on, BAR broke the embargo on the Dead Sea scrolls, why didn't they expose the this scandolous secret? you been reading the NI again, or some scandolous rag?

Check here:
http://www.bib-arch.org/
http://faculty.bbc.edu/ggromacki/deadseascrolls/dss_websites.htm

Creator of christianity was a HomoSexual why on earth Christians don't like homosexuals??

Creater of Christianity I.e PAUL AKA SAUL. :D

[QUOTE=567]Creator of christianity was a HomoSexual why on earth Christians don't like homosexuals??

Creater of Christianity I.e PAUL AKA SAUL.
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M*W: Good analogy. There was a thread about Paul being gay. Although Christians fiercely rejected this idea, it deserves more discussion. It only makes sense that if Paul were gay, his followers (the Christians) would deny it. It's bad enough that Christians deny Paul aka Saul was a liar, thief and murderer. There are allegations that have stated that Paul sucked Timothy's penis following his circumcision. None of this matters to me, I reject the whole lot of Christianity from then to now. It's all a lie.

[QUOTE=567]Creator of christianity was a HomoSexual why on earth Christians don't like homosexuals??

Creater of Christianity I.e PAUL AKA SAUL.
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M*W: Good analogy. There was a thread about Paul being gay.. you forgot honesty, that thread was started by you

Although Christians fiercely rejected this idea, it deserves more discussion. . no proof, I for one don't care if he was or wasn't gay, He wrote against it, he knew it, just as God had said that it was & is a sin

It only makes sense that if Paul were gay, his followers (the Christians) would deny it. . only makes sense to a warped mind like yours, you are so anti-christian you almost spit & foam at the mouth on cyberspace, a unique aspect of your personality

It's bad enough that Christians deny Paul aka Saul was a liar, thief and murderer. . and your proof is?

There are allegations that have stated that Paul sucked Timothy's penis following his circumcision. . allegations only found on muslim anti-christian hate sites, now why is that?

None of this matters to me, . Liar, your post proves you wrong, your history on this forum proves you wrong, let anybody check your posts, what would they see? 9 out 9 anti-christian threads started by none other than you, why is that? doesn't really matter to you? you are obsessed, foaming mad
Check this out:
http://sciforums.com/search.php?searchid=52445

I reject the whole lot of Christianity from then to now. It's all a lie
. luckily for us Christians, your rejection does not hurt us, but it will hurt you as you go slowly mad, bad*medicine woman, into the dispair, knowing that you will never know this truth, asking yourself, " is Jesus really God, should I pray?"

As for the rest of us non-Muslim/non-Christian folk, we can either joyfully take a side or sit and be entertained by sifting through the insults to find some interesting hidden points.

However, it is true that homosexuality is ubiquitous and not specific to Islam or Christianity. Hell, the roman pagans loved it. The Spartans idealized it as a component of good military training. Isn't it odd that the US military would be anti-gay? Embrace the system of one of the most effective militaries of all time! :D Hehe. I can just feel those military bots scouring my post and marking me up. Whoops.

--Long Live the Female Messiah.
http://www.angelfire.com/fang/goategg01/Defiance.gif (http://www.pinkeye.se)

M*W: Good analogy. There was a thread about Paul being gay. Although Christians fiercely rejected this idea, it deserves more discussion. It only makes sense that if Paul were gay, his followers (the Christians) would deny it. It's bad enough that Christians deny Paul aka Saul was a liar, thief and murderer. There are allegations that have stated that Paul sucked Timothy's penis following his circumcision. None of this matters to me, I reject the whole lot of Christianity from then to now. It's all a lie.

There are also allegations that the old man Prophet Mohammed rapes & fingers 9 year old girls, slaves & relatives. So Islam is a lie too eh? None of this matters to me, I reject the whole lot of Islam from then to now. It's all a lie. :D

Are you suggesting, M*W, that being gay is evil, repulsive, and not befitting of someone like Paul?

Are you suggesting, M*W, that being gay is evil, repulsive, and not befitting of someone like Paul?
Now that sexual discrimination, eh? :D

[QUOTE=okinrus]Are you suggesting, M*W, that being gay is evil, repulsive, and not befitting of someone like Paul?
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M*W: No, I'm not suggesting that being gay is evil or repulsive. What I am suggesting is that Christians say that being gay is evil, repulsive, and not befitting of someone like Paul, yet they worship Paul and deny his homosexuality. Personally, I don't care if Paul was or wasn't gay. He was a misogynist, a murderer, a thief and the liar who created Christianity. One should not be condemned for his sexual preferences (unless its pedophilia or the like) no more than they should be condemned for the color of their eyes or hair. Homosexuality occurred in those days just like it does today. That doesn't mean all homosexuals are evil and repulsive murderers, thiefs and liars who create misogynist new religions.

There are also allegations that the old man Prophet Mohammed rapes & fingers 9 year old girls, slaves & relatives. So Islam is a lie too eh? None of this matters to me, I reject the whole lot of Islam from then to now. It's all a lie. :D

DoctorNo, your punishment for lying is not in the least that you are not believed, but that you cannot believe anyone else.

I pity your suffering.

DoctorNo, your punishment for lying is not in the least that you are not believed, but that you cannot believe anyone else.

I pity your suffering.

Lying? Prove it. Mohammad did statutory rape 9 yr old ayesha. He fingers his slaves. And he stole the wife of his adopted son. Your punishment for blindedness is not in the least that you are gullible, but that you cannot be corrected.

I pity your suffering. :D

and 1.2 billion idiots worship him. LOL!

Actually, I'm not aware of any Muhammed worshippers out there....certainly they would be very few and not billions Muslims worship the creator god, named Allah, meaning exalted above all, the same god that christians and jews worship.

PS. I reported your post to James, you can ignore my reply if James end up deleting your post.

Personally, I don't care if Paul was or wasn't gay. He was a misogynist, a murderer, a thief and the liar who created Christianity.

Im not a Christian but I do know that assertion for a stupid lie. Murderer & thief? What on earth gave you that idea?

Watch out that Flores guy above is out on a witch hunt for liars. Since he couldnt convict me, therefore he might fall on you. :D

[removed]

err, which 1.2 billion worship Mohammed (saw). if you do you're NOT mulsim AT ALL (not in the slightest) one God only. no one else

I told you dont make silly claims about Islam unless you do your research becasue it only STRENGTHENS my claim that your silly views are due to ignorance of Islam

now this one just TOTALLY proves it. you have FAILED to understand the MOST BASIC belief in Islam. the BASIS OF ALL OF ITS BILIEFS by saying we worship someone other then Allah. if you CAN'T understand the most simpliest and root belief of Islam then how can you argue about the complicated stuff? how? if you cant understand this now wonder you didnt understand anything else.

and all of you people actually listen to this fool?

[removed]

oh thats so offensive... :rolleyes:

you silly little misguided girl. you dont know the Muslim mind frame, we are not weak people [deleted]. dissing my religion doens't do anything to me i just think whats going to happen to you when you die (argue you about this all you want but this is what MUSLIMS believe, this is what I belive amd u cat argue with that)

so it makes me feel more sorry for you and doesn't offend me or any Muslims AT ALL!!

[personal argument removed]

M*W: No, I'm not suggesting that being gay is evil or repulsive. then what are you suggesting? BTW, did you lose your degree or star, where you demoted or banned? what happened to your (*), between your name?

What I am suggesting is that Christians say that being gay is evil, repulsive, and not befitting of someone like Paul, Funny, so did Paul, what are you suggesting? That he was self-hating?

yet they worship Paul not worship, there you go again, putting words & actions into us Christians, why don't you study up first?, so that at least you could get things half right? or is that to much work? or is your hate so strong, that you can't bear to say anything nice about Christianity?

and deny his homosexuality. he never said that he was gay, only that he had a "thorn" in the flesh, that could have been any weakness, my belief is, that unless someone comes out of the closet, they are not gay

Personally, I don't care if Paul was or wasn't gay. there you go again lying, why don't you come out of the closet, tell everyone that you are so rabidly anti-Christian, that you can't think straight, you just have to lie, it is your "thorn" in the flesh. Come on, admit it, the truth will set you free.

He was a misogynist, a murderer, a thief and the liar who created Christianity. Paul? you are confused, you mean Mohammad, why do you think that islam is so anti-women? Mohammad had to use them as objects, to "plow" them, his word for sex

One should not be condemned for his sexual preferences (unless its pedophilia or the like) why are you having special cases then? if you can not be condemned (in your opinion), for your sexual preferences, why are you condemning pedophilia? if anything goes, then, why not that? how do you make distinctions if you do not believe in rules? what about Mohammad & the 9-year old Ayesha? is all forgiven, because he's not christian?

no more than they should be condemned for the color of their eyes or hair. Homosexuality occurred in those days just like it does today. that doesn't make it any more right, then as now

That doesn't mean all homosexuals are evil and repulsive murderers, thiefs and liars who create misogynist new religions.
there you go talking about ol' Mo again, you're in the right thread for that, remember? this is supposed to be on "islam & homosexuality"? can you stay focused? can you get back to the subject? "islam & homosexuality", yes, "islam & homosexuality", you can do it, focus, relax

Proud_Muslim must have overlooked this Islam-thread. I'll give it a bump to allow him to explain how tolerant his religion is towards same sex sexual based relationships.

Proud_Muslim must have overlooked this Islam-thread. I'll give it a bump to allow him to explain how tolerant his religion is towards same sex sexual based relationships.


Islam teaches that homosexuality is a sinful and punishible act by Allah. He told us in the Quran how Lot's people were severely punished, including his wife who approved of the act. Several Quranic verses prove this, such as Qur'an 26:160-175.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
26:164 "Go you unto the males of the 'Alamin {mankind}"
26:165"And leave those whom Allah have created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are tresspassing people."
26:168: "My Lord, save me and my family from what they do"
26:169-171 "So we saved him and his family, all, Exept an old woman {his wife} among those who remained behind, Then afterward We destroyed the others"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its more of the cause that stops the whole 'same sex' phase in the begining. People avoid it because it is MORALY wrong, not because of the harsh consequenses.

:cool:

Islam teaches that homosexuality is a sinful and punishible act by Allah. He told us in the Quran how Lot's people were severely punished, including his wife who approved of the act. Several Quranic verses prove this, such as Qur'an 26:160-175.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
26:164 "Go you unto the males of the 'Alamin {mankind}"
26:165"And leave those whom Allah have created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are tresspassing people."
26:168: "My Lord, save me and my family from what they do"
26:169-171 "So we saved him and his family, all, Exept an old woman {his wife} among those who remained behind, Then afterward We destroyed the others"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Its more of the cause that stops the whole 'same sex' phase in the begining. People avoid it because it is MORALY wrong, not because of the harsh consequenses.

:cool:

And whose morals are you quoting, Islams???

Homosexuality has and always will be a part of mankind - get used to it.

Note from moderator:

It has been necessary to extensively edit this thread in accordance with the forum rules. I urge posters to read those rules if they have not done so.

If you cannot carry on a civil conversation on this topic, I will close this thread.

[QUOTE=Randolfo][COLOR=Red] then what are you suggesting? BTW, did you lose your degree or star, where you demoted or banned? what happened to your (*), between your name?
*************
M*W: When the website was upgraded, I could not login. I contacted the webmaster about this, but nothing was done to correct it. I had to re-register, but for some reason, the program wouldn't allow me to insert the "star," and no one contacted me back about it! So, that's the story of my missing "star."
*************
Funny, so did Paul, what are you suggesting? That he was self-hating?
*************
M*W: Well, now that you mention it, as anti-semitic as Paul was, that may be a correct conclusion on your part. Hate emanates outwardly from hate that dwells within.
*************
...not worship, there you go again, putting words & actions into us Christians, why don't you study up first?
*************
M*W: If you have read my previous posts, you would know that at one time I was a staunch Christian.
*************
so that at least you could get things half right? or is that to much work? or is your hate so strong, that you can't bear to say anything nice about Christianity?
*************
M*W: It's not that I can't bear to saying anything nice about Christianity, I just can't find anything nice to say.
*************
he never said that he was gay, only that he had a "thorn" in the flesh, that could have been any weakness, my belief is, that unless someone comes out of the closet, they are not gay
*************
M*W: I guess we'll never really know if Paul was gay or not. However, Paul is known for creating Christianity and not as a backer of homosexuality. I'm sure it existed in those times just as it does today. Evolution will take homosexuality further, and we will be seeing more and more of it in our society but as androgyny. I'm not homosexual, but I know this is where we're going on an evolutionary basis, so I don't condemn it. Why should I? Homosexuals contain the One Spirit of God, and perhaps are closer to God than heterosexuals. There are homosexuals in my family, and I love them. There are homosexuals in our Earth family, and we should love them, too.
*************
there you go again lying, why don't you come out of the closet, tell everyone that you are so rabidly anti-Christian, that you can't think straight, you just have to lie, it is your "thorn" in the flesh. Come on, admit it, the truth will set you free.
*************
M*W: What may be a lie to you is truth for someone else. Just because you call something a lie means that your perception of it is invalid. I don't need to "come out of the closet" regarding my beliefs about Christianity. I think everyone on this forum already knows I'm anti-Christian. I don't believe I have to justify that again. I'm anti-Christian because I don't believe the LIES. If you choose to believe lies, that's your perogative.
*************
Paul? you are confused, you mean Mohammad, why do you think that islam is so anti-women?
*************
M*W: No, I never meant Mohammad. I have not studied Mohammad, so I have no opinion of him. Nowhere have I said anything about Islam being anti-women. You're CONFUSING me for someone else. I've said just the opposite, if anything, when discussing the burka and hijab. None of the Muslims I know are anti-women, in fact, the ones I know tend to indulge their wives and families, and communities.
*************
Mohammad had to use them as objects, to "plow" them, his word for sex
*************
M*W: Well, that's not any different than men of today using their verbal degradation of women in their "locker room" talk. You can't blame Mohammad for "using" women for sex. ALL MEN USE WOMEN FOR SEX!
*************
why are you having special cases then? if you can not be condemned (in your opinion), for your sexual preferences, why are you condemning pedophilia? if anything goes, then, why not that? how do you make distinctions if you do not believe in rules? what about Mohammad & the 9-year old Ayesha? is all forgiven, because he's not christian?
*************
M*W: I condemn pedophilia because it is non-consensual and it's against the law for good reason. It's a power and control issue these perverts have over helpless, weaker people. It may have not been such a social irregularity in some cultures, therefore, it was not considered to be wrong. Arranged marriages have been around a long time. In some cultures, betrothal occurred before the age of 10, sometimes earlier. Homosexuality, on the other hand, is consensual. I'm sure in some cases rape happens, in fact, I know it does. Our local law has exposed some horrible things going on in the male gay community. Recently, our sodomy law was found to be unconstitutional, and it was removed from the books. In this good-ole-boy redneck state, that was a truly major victory. Until you've seen an 18-month-old come into the emergency room with bruising and bleeding from the mouth and vagina or anus, you can't imagine the abomination of pedophilia.
*************
that doesn't make it any more right, then as now there you go talking about ol' Mo again, you're in the right thread for that, remember? this is supposed to be on "islam & homosexuality"? can you stay focused? can you get back to the subject? "islam & homosexuality", yes, "islam & homosexuality", you can do it, focus, relax
*************
M*W: Nothing in my book makes pedophilia right. I've seen to many horror stories. Personally, I've seen no cases of homosexuality, pedophilia, or other sexual perversions, by any Muslim, and we do have a very large Muslim population here. Also, for what it's worth, there are virtually no crimes committed in the Muslim community here. You want me to "stay focused" and "get back to the subject of "Islam & Homosexuality," but I am focused on the subject, and I have made my comments. Just because what I have to say, you don't want to hear, is your problem, not mine. You should go take a good dump, because you're full of shit.

ALL MEN USE WOMEN FOR SEX!

HEY HEY! MY WIFE USE ME FOR SEX! Men only become agressive at a younger age. When females start hitting 30 WATCH OUT!!!. :D :D :D

[QUOTE=DoctorNO]HEY HEY! MY WIFE USE ME FOR SEX! Men only become agressive at a younger age. When females start hitting 30 WATCH OUT!!!
*************
M*W: Okay, you got me there! The idea age for a good human sexual relationship is a 30-year-old woman and a 19-year-old man.

[QUOTE=Randolfo

You want me to "stay focused" and "get back to the subject of "Islam & Homosexuality," but I am focused on the subject, and I have made my comments. Just because what I have to say, you don't want to hear, is your problem, not mine.

You should go take a good dump, because you're full of shit.Oh, you hurt my feelings, & what are you filled with? Bad_medicine?

And whose morals are you quoting, Islams???

Homosexuality has and always will be a part of mankind - get used to it.


For your information, I was replying to a question. Secondly, homosexuality was not a part of mankind, it was started. I'm surprised you didn't know that.. :rolleyes:

For your information, I was replying to a question. Secondly, homosexuality was not a part of mankind, it was started. I'm surprised you didn't know that.. :rolleyes:
It was started - how do you mean IT WAS STARTED.

Do you mean it was started like a revolution or something?? :D - what on earth are you babbling about.??

Proud_Muslim must have overlooked this Islam-thread. I'll give it a bump to allow him to explain how tolerant his religion is towards same sex sexual based relationships.

Actually Islam in the Quran never prescribed death to homosexuals, but the bible did.

LEVITICUS 18:22 NKJ
22 `You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

LEVITICUS 20:13 NKJ
13 `If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

JUDE 1:7 NKJ
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

ROMANS 1:24-28 NKJ
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator . . . .
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-11 NKJ
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

It was started - how do you mean IT WAS STARTED.

Do you mean it was started like a revolution or something?? :D - what on earth are you babbling about.??


You said that homosexuality has and always will be a part of mankind. I'm saying that it is NOT a part of mankind, it was started by people who have no boundaries. It wasn't there from the beginning, and it was not a revolution, if thats what you're suggesting..

Did Paul have gay urges?

1: And he came also to Derbe and to Lystra: and behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewess that believed; but his father was a Greek.
2: The same was well reported of by the brethren that were at Lystra and Iconium.
3: Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and he took and circumcised him because of the Jews that were in those parts: for they all knew that his father was a Greek.
(Acts 16:3 American Standard Version)

Converts to Judaism in the Roman period had to undergo circumcision....Strangely enough, in Palestine rules were more liberal than in the Diaspora, and there were Proselytes of the Gate, as they were known, who were allowed to 'become Jews' without circumcision. But such was not the general rule. It was widely believed that the admission of uncircumcised men into Jewish religious worship 'impeded the arrival of the Messiah'. While 'semi-converts' were allowed, those who observed the Sabbath and the dietary laws, they were to be regarded as heathens if after a twelve-month period they had not undergone circumcision. These stringent rules did not deter converts....
(A. N. Wilson, Paul The Mind Of The Apostle, Pimlico. 1998. ISBN 0-7126-6663-X p. 128)

So now we need to ask, how was circumcision practised then? What was the method used in those days to circumcise someone? This is explained in detail by A. N. Wilson who writes:

By Roman times, circumcision was done with a metal knife, and, if we believe that Paul did insist on Timothy undergoing circumcision, it is perhaps worth reminding ourselves of the three essential parts of the ritual, without which it is not complete. The first part is milah, the cutting away of the outer part of the foreskin. The is done with one sweep of the knife. The second part, periah, is the tearing of the inner lining of the foreskin which still adheres to the glans, so as to lay it wholly bare. This was (and is) done by the operator - the mohel, the professional circumciser - with his thumb-nail and index finger. The third and essential part of the ritual is mesisah, the sucking of blood from the wound. Since the nineteenth century, it has been permissible to finish this part of the ritual with a swab, but in all preceding centuries and certainly in the time of Paul it was necessary for the mohel to clean the wound by taking the penis into his mouth. In the case of a young adult male such as Timothy the bleeding would have been copious. 12 We can easily imagine why Paul's Gentile converts were unwilling to undergo the ritual; and, given the more liberal attitudes towards the Torah which had already begun to emerge among the Hellenists of Syrian Antioch, it is not surprising that the custom of circumcision should have started to wane. It took the extremism of Paul to think that the knife of circumcision would actually 'cut you . . . off from Christ'. But could any greater contrast be imagined between this belief and the traditional Jewish view that those who did not weild that knife delayed the coming of the Messiah?
(Ibid., p. 131)

In other words, Paul had to take the penis of Timothy in his mouth in order to circumcise him! Note also how strongly Paul opposes circumcision elsewhere in the New Testament:

2: Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.
3: Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4: Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
5: For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.
6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
(Gal 5:2-6 American Standard Version)

Source: http://www.answering-christianity.com/shamoun-nursing.htm#Did%20Paul%20have%20gay%20urges?

Listen Homosexuality is a genetic relation. Who says these unique people should not have the same rights as everyone else. Muslims, damn it realise that, you are not the only religion in this world. You must adapt to society. I mean cmon. It is that "Im a proud muslim, and alah is the only god" mentality that cause problems.....SNAP out of it.

You said that homosexuality has and always will be a part of mankind. I'm saying that it is NOT a part of mankind, it was started by people who have no boundaries. It wasn't there from the beginning, and it was not a revolution, if thats what you're suggesting..
Huh? Ermm you are aware that homosexuality has always existed in pretty much every animal on this planet, including the homo sapien? People don't choose to be homosexual. They just are. It has nothing to do with boundaries. Don't forget that homosexuality existed before man set any boundaries... before man ever even conceived of the notion of any form of worship or 'God'.

In other words, Paul had to take the penis of Timothy in his mouth in order to circumcise him! Note also how strongly Paul opposes circumcision elsewhere in the New Testament:

Strongly opposed circumcision? Then doesnt that indicate that Paul didnt like sucking blood out of penises? So you dont really have a point here. You and that muslim website was just trying to decieve & mislead your readers. :bugeye:

Don't forget that homosexuality existed before man set any boundaries... before man ever even conceived of the notion of any form of worship or 'God'.

Bells, homosexuality have not always existed. Homosexuality is a conscious choice made by man. The action of homosexuality starts at the point the choice is made to act in that direction. You will never know exactly at what point in time did humans made the choice to sleep with same sex. I also don't know when that happened, but we both know that first came humans, then the choices came next at some point.

As far as you second sentence. You don't know anything about when did man first think about "creator" or god. I think man had to start formulating a notion about creation and life purpose from his/her inception. I even think animals have an idea about creation and purpose. The question was more important to the first man than it is to us now a day, why was the first man so little compared to his environment, why was the environment so harsh, why did humans die, why did they multiply, why did they feel, why did they love, why did they hate, ect....so I expect to see men from the past conceiving notions about a creator much more than we would see today. Modern man have been desensitized about his purpose and creator. Now a day you are born in a state of the art hospital with all the technology to take care of you..no need to reflect. Back then, you were born alone in a harsh environment and you tend to reflect much.

Flores, I know it is pointless to debate you about this. But just in case you'll listen; people do not choose to have homosexual desires anymore than they choose to have heterosexual ones. I never made a conscious choice to find young womens curvy bodies sexually atractive. It is just how I am. The same goes for gays. And for pedophiles for that matter, something I'd never considered until Dan Savage mentioned the idea in his column.

People don't have a choice over who they find attractive. They do have a choice on whether they act on those attractions or not. A gay man who does not have sex with other men does not stop being gay because he isn't having sex, any more than I stop being straight because I'm not having sex with women. Or pedophiles who know their attraction to children is wrong, and therefore never have sex period.

Of course some straights occasionally have same sex partners, just as some gays have ones of the opposite sex. Who you can fall in love with determines your sexuality more than anything.

For me personally, what I can't imagine is walking down a moonlit beach, holding hands with another guy. But that's ok, they can do just fine without me.

And the more gay men there are, the better. More single women means my chances of finding one who likes her men tall, thin, and goofy increase. Anything that tips the odds in my favor, I'm all for it.

Homosexuality is a conscious choice made by man. The action of homosexuality starts at the point the choice is made to act in that direction.

Homosexuality is not an action, it is an orientation or attitude. There are bundles of evidence that it is not a matter of choice, but is an innate tendancy shared by around 10-15% of the population.

You will never know exactly at what point in time did humans made the choice to sleep with same sex. I also don't know when that happened, but we both know that first came humans, then the choices came next at some point.

The ancestor species of humans had same-sex relations long before humans came along.

Did Paul have gay urges?

In other words, Paul had to take the penis of Timothy in his mouth in order to circumcise him!

Note also how strongly Paul opposes circumcision elsewhere in the New Testament:

what a gay fantasy you are spreading, why is this so-called fact only reported in 'hate' sites? No jew would do what is stated there, liar.

Paul opposed circumcision for non-jews, Mexicans like me do not have to go through that, but you as an muslim, should have had it done at 13 years old, like Abraham did to Ishmael.

BTW, are you relating as to how muslim circumcision is done? are you telling us a secret? you must have felt better after the cut, no?

Homosexuality is not an action, it is an orientation or attitude.
maybe, hormones during pregnancy, I think more of a life choice

There are bundles of evidence that it is not a matter of choice, but is an innate tendancy shared by around 10-15% of the population.
10% in SF, NY or LA, 2% more likely. I'm still waiting for proof, why would 'nature' make genetic losers? nature blasts sperm & eggs everywhere, the nature of nature is to explode with life, not to go to a non-productive lifestyle, all nature wants to reproduce; from viruses, bacteria, salmons, flowers, trees, birds & bees, why would nature put a design error then, a flaw? it's nurture more likely, or a chemical in our environment, or some triggering event, like puberty, & no place to go, but some eager male? humans only have a few instincts, "dating & mating" are learned responces, & 'love' is a chemical responce, all in the head (pun intended)

The ancestor species of humans had same-sex relations long before humans came along.
I guess that means, there are fossils of males caught in fellegrato?

Hi folks,

I am a Muslim and I am willing (and hopefully able) to take on your issues with Islam and homosexuality.

Anyone care to present their concerns? Here is what I think:

Overall, homosexuality in Islam is a sin, it is forbidden much like any sexual activity outside the fold of marriage. To understand Islam's view on the issue, here are some points that best summarize it:

• A social structure that is built with the family at its core. It is crucial to keep that in mind when examining the view of Islam. Crucial because the focus of the laws and culture here in the west is the individual. In Islam, you have obligations towards and rights over your immediate family. For example, under Islamic law, your mother can take you to court if you fail to take care of her and it would be the court’s business to look into the matter.
• A view of sex as having two sides. Sex is viewed not just as pleasure, but as an act of reproduction with obvious important responsibilities. That is, the act of forming new life. It is not sanctioned outside of marriage. Pre-marital sex, fornication, adultery, prostitution and pornography are all forms of sexual behavior that augment the aspect of pleasure, but ignore the aspect of responsibilities of this act of reproduction.
• A clear definition (literally stated in Quran) of what makes a family. Adoption in Islam is not allowed. You may take a child into your care and you will be rewarded immensely by God, but that does not make the child your own. No matter how long the child lives with you, no matter how unkind the child’s true parents may have been. Muhammad himself had an adopted son and he had to restore the son's old name and stop calling him his son.
• Any sexual behavior that is harmful is banned. This is common sense.

In light of these principles, having sex with members of the same sex is an act of sexual pleasure with no reproductive responsibilities and no ability to form a family. On an individual level, the sexual practices associated with homosexuality are oral sex and anal sex, both are more risky forms of sexual activity with anal sex being ridiculously harmful.

Adious..

Karlos:

Is it true then that Muslims only have sex to reproduce?

No. Sex has two sides, pleasure and reproduction.

So, pleasure is only allowed within marriage? And you're not allowed to "augment" the pleasure too much, or you're overemphasizing the wrong aspect. Is that right?

What do you think a fair ratio of sex acts for fun vs. sex acts for procreation would be for a married couple?

I am sorry, can you show me where I said this? You made the following claims:

a) Pleasure is allowed only within marriage.
b) You are not allowed to "augment" the pleasure too much. Otherwise you are emphasizing the worng aspect.
c) That there is a ratio beween sex for fun and sex for reproduction that could/should be maintained.

Where did I say any of these things? These are not my points. I cannot explain points that you made. I will be more than glad to answer questions that have to do with what I posted though.

Hi folks,

I am a Muslim and I am willing (and hopefully able) to take on your issues with Islam and homosexuality.

Anyone care to present their concerns? Here is what I think:
and what makes you an expert? what are your credentials?
are you gay? or just festive? or just trying to put your point across? which is ok too, thanks for joining us

Hi folks,

I am a Muslim and I am willing (and hopefully able) to take on your issues with Islam and homosexuality.

Anyone care to present their concerns? Here is what I think:

Overall, homosexuality in Islam is a sin, it is forbidden much like any sexual activity outside the fold of marriage.
there was another thread that said that young boys are used by unmarried men, because they are not allowed to have sex with women until marriage, is that true? what is this behavior called? if its not homosexual, what does it fall under? what is it called? boys being boys? Michael Jacksonism, or catholic priesting?

Sex with boys, chairs, and cattle is forbidden. Just like sex with a woman who is not your wife. No more, no less. Again, the main concept here is guidance and social order.

I am not an expert, just a person interested in discussing matters and sorting out stuff. For example, you just came up with an unfounded rumor about Muslims saying that sleeping with boys is allowed, this is false. It is not allowed in Islam, thus you and I have just been part of a useful act of dispelling a myth that was out there. For this, I am grateful.

Sex with boys, chairs, and cattle is forbidden. Just like sex with a woman who is not your wife. No more, no less. Again, the main concept here is guidance and social order.

I am not an expert, just a person interested in discussing matters and sorting out stuff. For example, you just came up with an unfounded rumor about Muslims saying that sleeping with boys is allowed, this is false. It is not allowed in Islam, thus you and I have just been part of a useful act of dispelling a myth that was out there. For this, I am grateful.
But it is not a myth. It may be a myth to say that all sects of islam allow it but I have seen rulings from Iranian religious leaders detailing what must be done to livestock that a man has had sex with and what to do if a man damages a baby by penetrating it (with his penis). I will get some links for you

Some quotes from ayatollah Khomeni's book "Tahrir-ol-Masael"

"If one commits an act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrements become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed as quickly as possible and burned, and the price of it paid to its owner by him who sodomized it."

"If a man __ God protect him from it! _ fornicates with an animal and ejaculates, ablution is necessary."

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister. The complete Persian text of this saying is listed below. :eek:

These are translations from the farsi found here

Khomeni quotes (http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352818&TOCID=2083225445)

What does an ablution consist of?

What does an ablution consist of?
Washing oneself in a prescribed manner

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?id=561752002&tid=1

Just in case we'd all forgotten.

"They were more terrifying than the al-Qaeda."

(James Fletcher)

Washing oneself in a prescribed manner

I know, but what is the prescribed manner?

Now this is from an article not an islamic source or proof of anything just a view.

In Moslem nations, the suppression of liaison between men and women outside prearranged wedlock has produced frustrated sexual tension that has sought and found release in homosexual intercourse through the centuries. Those denied access to licit sexuality have sought and obtained outlets that have produced chronic contradiction between normative morality and social realities. Male and female prostitution and same-sex practices — including abuse of young boys by their older male relatives — have been rampant in Islamic societies from the medieval to the modern period. It should be emphasized that those societies stress a distinction between the sexual act itself, which was deemed acceptable, and emotional attachment, which was unpardonable:

“Sexual relations in Middle Eastern societies have historically articulated social hierarchies, that is, dominant and subordinate social positions: adult men on top; women, boys and slaves below (8).”

A Moslem who is the active partner in sexual relations with other men is not considered a “homosexual” (the word has no pre-modern Arabic equivalent); quite the contrary, his sexual domination of another man may even confer a status of hyper-masculinity. He may use other men as substitutes for women, and at the same time have great contempt for them. This depraved view of sex, common in mainstream Moslem societies, is commonly found in the West only in prisons. In all cases it is the presence of love, affection, or equality among sexual partners that is intolerable. Equality in sexual relations is unimaginable in Islam, whether heterosexual or homosexual. Sex in Islamic societies has never been about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male’s achievement of pleasure through domination.

Historically, this state of affairs was not concealed from Western observers who were fascinated, shocked, and often attracted by the outward appearances of rampant, barely concealed pederasty. By 1800, a European traveler to Egypt wrote:

“The inconceivable inclination which has dishonored the Greeks and Persians of antiquity constitutes the delight, or, more properly speaking the infamy of the Egyptians ... the contagion has seized the poor as well as the rich.”

The “contagion” in question was spelled out more bluntly by an earlier writer, Thomas Sherley, describing the Turks:

“For their Sodommerye they use it soe publiquely and impudentlye as an honest Christian woulde shame to companye his wyffe as they do with their buggeringe boys (9).”

A 17th century French visitor to the Middle East went so far as to claim that Moslems were bisexual by nature, and many male authors gave descriptions of “licentiousness” (lesbianism) among women in harems and bath houses. Homosexuality became known to the English as the “Persian” or “Turkish” vice.
From here (http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.asp?ID=5704)

Here are some interesting quotes
"The action I fear most for my Ummah is the action of the nation of Lut (i.e. Sodomy)." - Mishkaat p. 313

Hazrat Abu Huraira reports that Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: Do not stare at beardless youth.

Hazrat Anas reports that Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said: Beware of beardless youth for they are a greater source of mischief than young maidens.

Hazrat Umar used to say: I do not fear the danger of a wild animal let loose upon an aalim, as much as I fear the danger of a beardless, handsome lad upon him.

Hazrat Sufyan Thauri says: If every woman has one shaitaan accompanying her, then a handsome lad has two.

Imam Ghazzali writes: Turning a hungry lion upon an aabid (worshipper) is not as detrimental to him as a handsome lad left before him.

One can ponder as to why "a handsome lad" was seen as such a danger in islamic societies. Is it an outlet for the sexual frustration imposed by islam as mentioned above? Was it part of the cultural fabric of the middle east before and after islam? Is it just nonsensical worrying? I don't know.

I don't know.

It is an interesting read though. It also makes me wonder about fanatical muslims. Where is PM when you need him?
Hypothetically speaking then, if PM is such a fanatical muslim, does this mean he is also a fanatical bisexual (or plain homosexual)?

Here is a website for gay, lesbian and transgender muslims :bugeye:
Al-Fatiha (http://www.al-fatiha.net/index.html)
This reminds me of a gay friend I had who was a staunch republican :D

It is an interesting read though. It also makes me wonder about fanatical muslims. Where is PM when you need him?
Hypothetically speaking then, if PM is such a fanatical muslim, does this mean he is also a fanatical bisexual (or plain homosexual)?
I've been wondering where he is myself. Hey I like the updated avatar ;)

Sex with boys, chairs, and cattle is forbidden. Just like sex with a woman who is not your wife. No more, no less. Again, the main concept here is guidance and social order.

I am not an expert, just a person interested in discussing matters and sorting out stuff. For example, you just came up with an unfounded rumor about Muslims saying that sleeping with boys is allowed, this is false. It is not allowed in Islam, thus you and I have just been part of a useful act of dispelling a myth that was out there. For this, I am grateful.

I don't doubt your sincerety, but alas, you do not know enough of your own religion, read Tiassa's link, hilarious indeed & next time you are at prayers, ask the iman how the Madhi (muslim messiah) will be born?
oh, & guard your nether-regions when you bend over & postrate at prayers, you don't know who's watching

From a 'gay' site:
http://www.suphawut.com/gvb/gayly/gay_history2.htm
Islam—a Study in Polar Contrasts
Islam, the last of the great world cultures to emerge, was a contradiction with regard to homosexuality. On one hand, The Qur’an condemned homosexuality unequivocally. And on the other, Muslim societies showed a great deal of tolerance toward men who loved men. Although Muhammad, writer of The Qur'an, condemned homosexual sex, his version of paradise included "seductive young boys as well as houris (maidens)."1 The Qur’an also notes that a man will become pregnant and bear the expected Mahdi, a story that parallels the Bible's story of the Virgin Mary.

The tolerance shown toward men was not necessarily extended to women. About 790 C.E., two women in Baghdad engaging in lesbian sex were beheaded, even though the Muslim court was at one of its highest gay points. But poems written by Abu Nuwas, including The Arabian Nights, were largely addressed to a male lover and a lesbian friend, Jinnan.

One can ponder as to why "a handsome lad" was seen as such a danger in islamic societies. Is it an outlet for the sexual frustration imposed by islam as mentioned above? Was it part of the cultural fabric of the middle east before and after islam? Is it just nonsensical worrying? I don't know.
to answer your question, I just emphased your quoted source, like so:

From:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Printable.asp?ID=5704

In Moslem nations, the suppression of liaison between men and women outside prearranged wedlock has produced frustrated sexual tension that has sought and found release in homosexual intercourse through the centuries. Those denied access to licit sexuality have sought and obtained outlets that have produced chronic contradiction between normative morality and social realities. Male and female prostitution and same-sex practices — including abuse of young boys by their older male relatives — have been rampant in Islamic societies from the medieval to the modern period. It should be emphasized that those societies stress a distinction between the sexual act itself, which was deemed acceptable, and emotional attachment, which was unpardonable:

“Sexual relations in Middle Eastern societies have historically articulated social hierarchies, that is, dominant and subordinate social positions: adult men on top; women, boys and slaves below (8).”

A Moslem who is the active partner in sexual relations with other men is not considered a “homosexual” (the word has no pre-modern Arabic equivalent); quite the contrary, his sexual domination of another man may even confer a status of hyper-masculinity. He may use other men as substitutes for women, and at the same time have great contempt for them. This depraved view of sex, common in mainstream Moslem societies, is commonly found in the West only in prisons. In all cases it is the presence of love, affection, or equality among sexual partners that is intolerable. Equality in sexual relations is unimaginable in Islam, whether heterosexual or homosexual. Sex in Islamic societies has never been about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male’s achievement of pleasure through domination.

Historically, this state of affairs was not concealed from Western observers who were fascinated, shocked, and often attracted by the outward appearances of rampant, barely concealed pederasty. By 1800, a European traveler to Egypt wrote:

“The inconceivable inclination which has dishonored the Greeks and Persians of antiquity constitutes the delight, or, more properly speaking the infamy of the Egyptians ... the contagion has seized the poor as well as the rich.”

The “contagion” in question was spelled out more bluntly by an earlier writer, Thomas Sherley, describing the Turks:

“For their Sodommerye they use it soe publiquely and impudentlye as an honest Christian woulde shame to companye his wyffe as they do with their buggeringe boys (9).”

A 17th century French visitor to the Middle East went so far as to claim that Moslems were bisexual by nature, and many male authors gave descriptions of “licentiousness” (lesbianism) among women in harems and bath houses. Homosexuality became known to the English as the “Persian” or “Turkish” vice.
8. Bruce Dunne, “Power and Sexuality in the Middle East,” Middle East Report, Spring 1998.
9. Brian Whitaker in The Guardian, November 19, 2001 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4302213,00.html

Islam took after its predecessor Christianity. As a religion which wanted to consolidate power that came from people's blind faith, it was more ambitious than it's predecessor. It wanted to increase it's membership --- by hook or by crook. It did not, at least theoretically, want to waste male sexual energy in non-procreative endeavours and of course laid down barbaric punishments for such sex.

But, Islam never really took this injunction seriously. Sex between men is widely practised in Islamic societies, and is actually quite acceptable.

But the concept of 'homosexuality' in Islamic societies is quite different from how the west percieves it. Sex between men is not supposed to be restricted to any particualr class of males. All masculine men are supposed to be (as they naturally are!) capable of and interested in having sex with another masculine youth. In parts of Afghanistan, e.g., such bonds are even partly institutionalised. Bonds between men are in any case extremely strong as Islamic societies live in male only and female only societies (like in the nature). Therefore, sex between men is not considered 'homosexuality', nor the participants 'homosexuals'.

What corresponds to homosexuality or homosexuals --- i.e. a distinct class of people are transgendered males who have sex with men, thinking of themselves as women. Such a class of persons also existed in other ancient societies including amongst the Greeks. Homosexuals are considered a third-sex in the oriental societies.

The religious injunction of sex between men does not apply to sex between a eunuch/ transgendered male and a man (correct me on this!). Most transgendered (homosexual in the west) males in Islamic culturess in therefore castrate themselves. In India such men are called Hijras.

No one should be put to death for any crime, unless they are a clear and present danger to the lives of others.

There are planty of references in the HOLY BIBLE of how to kill homosexuals for there homosexuality,not only in teh christians scriptures but the jewish thalumd too so its not just an islamic issue

Remember it is only 50 years or so ago that homosexuality was against the law in England. Another 100 years before that and it was punishable by public flogging, go back another couple of hundred years and death.

Within a lifetime america practised apartheid and most european countries shot anyone who wouldn't go to war and fight as cowards. Terrorism has been practised in Ireland and Spain for some time. Which of this can you blame on Islam.

How soon we forget our own crimes. The western world is now the most socially evolved - the middle east and and other countries and cultures will take time to catch up. You cannot expect this to happen overnight.

No one should be put to death for any crime, unless they are a clear and present danger to the lives of others.

It is important to understand why Islam wanted to kill homosexuals.

It was fighting against nature to cultivate and harness political power that comes from people's blind faith. Numbers were vital to it. And it still is. It has unashamedly converted people, only through violence, all over the world. Which person in his sane mind would willingly accept a religion devoid of any spirituality, compassion or humanity.

Violence is still its trademark. That is how it forced people to believe in prophet Mohammed in the first place, who otherwise had no credibility as a spiritual person (unlike Jesus or Buddha).

It started off in a society where sex between men was quite widespread, and it thought of dealing with it in the only way it knew -- through violence. It could not afford to let male sexual energy be wasted in non-procreative bonds, when it wanted to increase its population. Muslims are still a threat to peace for other communities, whereever they live because they quite consciously and unashamedly want to outnumber and persecute those that try to live peacefully with them.

But, to their credit, Muslim all-male societies are still very open to male-sexual bonds, unless they are run-over by fundamentalists/ terrorists.

The western world is now the most socially evolved

That's a one man opinion.

That's a one man opinion.

How so?

Do you consider the social structures of :
the middle east
the far east
china
latin america
or africa
more socialy evolved?

Also I cant believe I am the only person in the world to hold that opinion.


Or am I missing your point? Please explain.

Remember I did say SOCIALLY evolved not SPIRITUALLY evolved.

[QUOTE=Medicine Woman] you forgot honesty, that thread was started by you

no proof, I for one don't care if he was or wasn't gay, He wrote against it, he knew it, just as God had said that it was & is a sin

only makes sense to a warped mind like yours, you are so anti-christian you almost spit & foam at the mouth on cyberspace, a unique aspect of your personality

and your proof is?

allegations only found on muslim anti-christian hate sites, now why is that?

Liar, your post proves you wrong, your history on this forum proves you wrong, let anybody check your posts, what would they see? 9 out 9 anti-christian threads started by none other than you, why is that? doesn't really matter to you? you are obsessed, foaming mad
Check this out:
http://sciforums.com/search.php?searchid=52445

luckily for us Christians, your rejection does not hurt us, but it will hurt you as you go slowly mad, bad*medicine woman, into the dispair, knowing that you will never know this truth, asking yourself, " is Jesus really God, should I pray?"

[QUOTE=Medicine Woman] you forgot honesty, that thread was started by you

no proof, I for one don't care if he was or wasn't gay, He wrote against it, he knew it, just as God had said that it was & is a sin

only makes sense to a warped mind like yours, you are so anti-christian you almost spit & foam at the mouth on cyberspace, a unique aspect of your personality

and your proof is?

allegations only found on muslim anti-christian hate sites, now why is that?
Radolfo,
as muslim I do not believe Christ or Paul was gay. and i condemn any so-called muslim sites that encourages hate to any population regarding sex, color and religion. I belive more than a billion muslims agree with me, excluding a few extremisits
Liar, your post proves you wrong, your history on this forum proves you wrong, let anybody check your posts, what would they see? 9 out 9 anti-christian threads started by none other than you, why is that? doesn't really matter to you? you are obsessed, foaming mad
Check this out:
http://sciforums.com/search.php?searchid=52445

luckily for us Christians, your rejection does not hurt us, but it will hurt you as you go slowly mad, bad*medicine woman, into the dispair, knowing that you will never know this truth, asking yourself, " is Jesus really God, should I pray?"

How so?
Or am I missing your point? Please explain.

You have to look at things as a non-westerner.

The societies you have mentioned are definitely openly cruel to its citizens.

The western society may look fair and open from the outset -- because it allows most of the things that are 'banned' in almost rest of the world.
But if you look a little more closely, beyond what is apparent -- then you will find that everything is sham. Everything is superficial. While the real story is quite 'nasty'. Some of the more important drawbacks of the west are:

- It's a society that has come far away from nature, and is setting the trend for the third world countries to follow its pattern of development that is destroying our environment. The western society promotes blatant materialism/ luxurious living which is beneficial neither to the humans nor the environment.

- The western society promotes individualism which is very harmful to human beings as a species and as individuals. It has brought about a social environment where families have been reduced to 'nuclear families' which have no place for the old.

- Regarding social evolution, the greatest folly of the western world is to try to bring about an unnatural heterosexual order, by breaking the gender division of the original society which was left unharmed even by Christianity and Islam. Thus science has achieved an extent of human oppression that even religion could not. The worst victims of this social order are men, who are fast becoming second class citizens, while the 'equality' movement of women has taken an ugly turn, where equality now means dominating and oppressing the modern male, almost totally disempowered by a process of heterosexualisation.

I could expand on it if you think there is a need.

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Islam and Communism has made several societies openly cruel and unjust. But there are still societies, that are much better off than either the manipulative west or the cruel orient (Japan and India come to mind which are progressive but free from many of the serious ills of the western world).

OK, now I understand where you are coming from, and there is certainly some truth in what you say. The west is really a long long way from being perfect and still has an awfully long way still to evolve. But I think you confuse society, politics, spirituality and human nature all together.



- It's a society that has come far away from nature, and is setting the trend for the third world countries to follow its pattern of development that is destroying our environment. The western society promotes blatant materialism/ luxurious living which is beneficial neither to the humans nor the environment.).

It is true the west is materialist, but so are most other societies, exspect communist. I have personal experience of south america and the gap between rich and poor is far greater and the luxurious living at least equals what I see in europe. The middle and far east also have their fair share of oppulence.

As for third world countries following trends - this is more down to politics and the human nature of greed than society. Politicians and banks will detremine foreign and third world policies - these are not necessarilly representative of the condition of societies.

The west has evolved to its current state, hopefully it is a stage and it will pass through it without destroying the world. But it is only fair to assume that other countries will have to pass through the same stage of social evolution, although hopefully they will pass through it more quickly, learning from the mistakes of the west.


- The western society promotes individualism which is very harmful to human beings as a species and as individuals. It has brought about a social environment where families have been reduced to 'nuclear families' which have no place for the old. ).

Again I will draw on my experience in south america. The wealthy look after thier old very well, the old of the poor struggle awfully. There is very little in the way of social welfare to protect them.
The system of social welfare employed by the west helps to ensure the old and sick are cared for regardless of wealth, and basicaly it works, it is suppossed to be a shared responsibilty of the old. The down side of this however is nuclear family with the state left 'holding the baby', and of course the greedy exploit the system to point of collapse. But like I say it is still evolving.

Although I will agree with you that individualism is not a good thing, this is as much down to human nature as to society.


- Regarding social evolution, the greatest folly of the western world is to try to bring about an unnatural heterosexual order, by breaking the gender division of the original society which was left unharmed even by Christianity and Islam. Thus science has achieved an extent of human oppression that even religion could not.

This I would tend to agree with you on. The western media now actively promotes homosexuality. Although homosexuals are free to do as they plaese , I do not think as a society it should be encouraged.


The worst victims of this social order are men, who are fast becoming second class citizens, while the 'equality' movement of women has taken an ugly turn, where equality now means dominating and oppressing the modern male, almost totally disempowered by a process of heterosexualisation.).

However what you say here is complete rubbish. Western women still earn less and work less than male counterparts and are not yet equal let alone pushing men into 2nd class. It is true many men 'feel' oppressed but this is their own phsycological problem not reality.


Islam and Communism has made several societies openly cruel and unjust. But there are still societies, that are much better off than either the manipulative west or the cruel orient (Japan and India come to mind which are progressive but free from many of the serious ills of the western world).

India has great wealth in part, extreme poverty in others and a severe lack of social welfare and they are still stuck in the 'caste' system mentality. I agree that India is a rich and diverse Spiritual country, but socially no.

Japan I will give you - it equals the west socially.

homosexuality is not acceptable in Islam. get your facts from muslims, not muslim-islam haters.period

homosexuality is not acceptable in Islam. get your facts from muslims, not muslim-islam haters.period

You are asking the judge not to look at evidences, but ask the murderer whether he committed the crime or not, and take his word for it.

Of course, homosexuality is unacceptable in Islam. But quiet sly relationships between men is acceptable at the peer level and almost universal. In some Muslim societies like parts of Afghanistan it is even formally acceptable because of a strong tradition though it may be illegal.