Napalm Raid on Falluja?
73 charred bodies -- women and children -- were found
By Giuliana Sgrenahttp://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html
This is a news story from Giuliana Sgrena who posessed sensitive information, that America did not want her to reveal . America was already trying to cover-up the evidence of war crimes in Fallujah on a massive scale. Just 2 weeks after that story , Giuliana Sgrena was "kidnapped", after having interviewed surviving witnesses to the events of Fallujah. Last week the Iraqi Health Ministry confirmed that the US used chemical weapons on civilians in Fallujah. At that point, Giuliana Sgrena's "captors" probably decided there wasn't much point in holding her any longer, and she was released. Tellingly, her captors warned her that the Americans would not want her to leave Iraq alive. NewsMax.com
is a harsh critic of the U.S. liberation who has written dozens of reports accusing American soldiers of war crimes, torture and massacring Iraqi civilians.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/6/81539.shtml
Judging from this smear campaign already launched against Giuliana Sgrena
I say America believes Sgrena found hard evidence that the US did indeed use banned chemical weapons against civilians in Fallujah. Having failed to kill her , the only recourse the US has is to attack her credibility before she can recover enough to go public with what she knows.

hey, it still brought news of americas actions to everyone outside of the information loop, so even if her claims are dismissed, thousands more will join us in reading the actual news not american propaganda

Having failed to kill her , the only recourse the US has is to attack her credibility before she can recover enough to go public with what she knows.

Bah, if they (the Americans) wanted her dead, she would be. They had her. She is alive (as well as others in the car) because she wasnt being targeted.

The Italians running this mission messed up big time. They are lucky only one of them is dead. They knew there was a curfew. They know full well what happens to speeding cars headed towards volatile areas in a war zone, after curfew, in the middle of the night. They chose to ignore it. The Italians are the ones responsible for this.

That is interesting articles Brian but why do you think that the Americans didnt just kill them anyway? the "spin doctors" dont really seem to care about eye witnesses or anything so why let her live?

If she had such damaging information why didn't her captors release her without a ransom so she could reveal it?

the US soldiers did their job exceptionally.

1- they effectively shot at the car which was breaking curfew while travelling dangerously fast and recklessly (in Sgrena's own words)

2- they were alert enough to stop shooting when they heard Italian... as opposed to sprey it until nobody moves and no car is left, which is something that amateurs or nervous soldiers would do, considering all the car bombs and IEDs they're faced with

had only Italian intelligence coordinated this thing with the US army (a little radio call with a car description and route description are extremely easy things to do), none of this would've happened.

the US has no wishes for a diplomatic incident with Itlaly, upsetting world opinion even more, and giving propaganda material to the enemy.

it's pretty sad that a secret agent had to die this way. i'm sure he was a very valuable person for Italy.

If I was the CO of those officers, I would have their asses up on charges if they didn't open fire. What would have happened if that car was piloted by a fanatic and loaded to the brim with explosives?

otheadp, Sgrena denied that the car was speeding

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=14968_Sgrenas_Truth

The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through


i'd be driving slow if i were the driver of that car. at least that's what i do when there's a bad storm or ice or snow or pot-holes with puddles.

is that even an issue if she was going Formula-1 or "only 10 km over speed limit" or "dangerous for those weather / road conditions" ?

the US soldiers did their job exceptionally.
Yeah suuuuuure .................
U.S.: 'Absurd' to think troops targeted Italian

WASHINGTON - The White House on Monday said it was “absurd” for an Italian journalist to charge that U.S. military forces may have deliberately targeted her car as she was being escorted by Italian agents who had just negotiated her freedom from hostage-takers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7089948/

Think about it ? The soldiers are sitting there in their armoured vehicles, their fingers on the firing button, and this car drives up with a sign in the windows that says 'press'.................

If I was the CO of those officers, I would have their asses up on charges if they didn't open fire. What would have happened if that car was piloted by a fanatic and loaded to the brim with explosives?

Exactly, Clockwood.

This situation is almost exactly the same as one of the scenarios we put the deploying units through on their UREs for OIF/OEF. Basically, we have a civilian car come towards a checkpoint and have it ignore any of a number of warning/instruction signs, then see how the soldiers react to the presence of the oncoming vehicle.

What each soldier has in this case are his own rules of engagement that dictate several things that a threatening vehicle must do before they can engage it (eg, it must be going so fast, coming right at them, ignoring all warnings including warning shots, not signaling in any manner, etc). If the vehicle meets these critera, then the soldiers, if they feel threatned, are authorized to open fire. The right to self defense is never denied.

In the training exercises, we get the OPFOR to do any number of different things...sometimes they are outright hostile and they'll open fire on the checkpoint as they drive at it, sometimes we'll have a female with a "baby" inside who is trying to get to a hospital or something. The car usually does the same thing...runs up to the entry control point as fast as it can, tries to drive through or around it, and then the soldiers react. About half the time, they succeed in stopping the car at the ECP...and most of the time when this happens, it is a car with a bomb in it (and they get blown up). The other half the time, they open fire and live with the consequences. Even in training, the "woman with baby" scenario can really get to some people, as our OPFOR are pretty awesome actors...sometimes we even have the "press" roll up and take pictures of the dead woman clutching her child and let the squad leader or platoon leader try and clean up the mess. It's probaly the most demanding predeployment training we go through at least for us JO's.

Point is, when news stories like this come out, a lot of times it's the direct result of a truly no win fog-of-war type situation. The best way to prevent this sort of thing is to focus on the soldiers doing the checkpoint properly...putting up clear, visible signs telling the instructions for clearing the checkpoint, properly canalizing the vehicles prior to their getting anywhere near the soldiers, knowing and applying the ROE properly for the situation. Unfortunately we can't cover everything, and this is the result. That's all there is to it. There is no "what we don't know" here, and contrary to popular myths (some of which have appeared in this thread) the ECP's are rigorously maintained and ridiculously easy to spot from far away. There is absolutely no way somebody competent enough to operate a motor vehicle could "accidentally" rush into one.

Basically, if the facts in this case are as they've been reported, these soldiers did exactly the right thing. If anyone made a "mistake" in this situation it was the people in the car, not the soldiers. If I was there I would have ordered them to open fire myself.

um out of interest were any of the signs or instructions in italian?

And B\W if you had given that order i assume you would have been willing to cop the consiquences which SHOULD be jail time. If you fuck up you go to jail simple as that. The same rules actually applie to the police, they cant shoot someone because they MIGHT be a threat. As soon as there is a police shooting the homoside squad and internal affairs get involved and the officer MUST prove they were justifide. Same should applie to civillian killings and if they were wrong thats just too bad. You get the guns, you get the training, you get the responciability

Asguard: Is waving someone down and firing warning shots language specific? The very fact that it is a military checkpoint at all should be enough to clue them in as one of these guys was a freaking secret service goon for heaven sakes.

I don't think anyone can really know how they will react in a combat situation, whether it be military, mugging, fist fight or other combat situation, untill they are actually in one. Even the people who have recieve the best military or martial arts training won't know. There is only so much you can simulate with sparring, drills, chin na, excetra. Until you're attacked you can feel confident that you could defend yourself but you don't really know for sure. Everyone reacts a different way to danger. One person might freeze up or run away. Another person might do exactly as they were trained and yet another may get trigger happy and strike out at the first thing that came close enough to make contact. I'm not into conspiracy theories unless there is significant evidence but I don't trust the government either. I'm also not going to comment on who was right or wrong in this regretable circumstance as I know little of it. I would also like to add that I do not have pro military or nationalistic views. I am a citizen of the planet Earth and tend to look at the big picture instead of inividual countries. If anyone wants to make a Nanu Nanu comment about the citixen of the planet Earth thing that's fine, I've heard it all before. If a post like this got through from me before this one I apologize about the second as the first time I got an error message and it seemed not to go through as it basically says the same thing.

If she had such damaging information why didn't her captors release her without a ransom so she could reveal it?

did you ever think that maybe she was a volunteer, or convinced them of her innocence, and was staying there of her own accord in order to get the $2-$8m that will now be used to fight the americans. if you knew that pretending to be a hostage would earn the people you ore supporting an enormous amount of money wolud you want to leave?

did you ever think that maybe she was a volunteer, or convinced them of her innocence, and was staying there of her own accord in order to get the $2-$8m that will now be used to fight the americans. if you knew that pretending to be a hostage would earn the people you ore supporting an enormous amount of money wolud you want to leave?
if...if...if...Have you any evidence for any of these ifs?
None of your hypotheses answer my question: if she had such damaging information why didn't her captors release her to use it?
If she was a "volunteer" [who wouldn't need the intervention of the Italian Secret Service to get her out], why didn't she just send out the information?

um out of interest were any of the signs or instructions in italian?I don't know. I wasn't there. I will say that the ECP signs generally employ 4+ different languages, all of which pertain to the region, and at least one of which the people in the vehicle would have been able to comprehend as they worked in the environment. I would be very surprised if nobody in the vehicle could comprehend any of the languages printed on the signs.

And B\W if you had given that order i assume you would have been willing to cop the consiquences which SHOULD be jail time. If you fuck up you go to jail simple as that. The same rules actually applie to the police, they cant shoot someone because they MIGHT be a threat. As soon as there is a police shooting the homoside squad and internal affairs get involved and the officer MUST prove they were justifide. Same should applie to civillian killings and if they were wrong thats just too bad. You get the guns, you get the training, you get the responciability
Soldiers are not police. However, there will be an investigation (there always is) and if the soldiers acted in error they will be reprimanded accordingly. Given the high profile of this event in particular, said investigation and reprimand will be exceptional.

"In the training exercises, we get the OPFOR to do any number of different things...sometimes they are outright hostile and they'll open fire on the checkpoint as they drive at it, sometimes we'll have a female with a "baby" inside who is trying to get to a hospital or something"

Exactly! We put IEDs everywhere and we kill alot of rotational soldiers. Its very good training.


Chemical weapons on civilians?? Right.......... and how exactly did they use these weapons?? Mustard Gernades? VX Bullets?? The Infantry was in there! Do you have any pics of Marines in MOP gear or are U.S. troops now magically immune to Chem weapons?? Get help.

or are U.S. troops now magically immune to Chem weapons?? Get help.
when you're Satan, you're immune to anything

America has been caught lying .....................again
Berlusconi: U.S. Given Advance Notice of Sgrena Rescue
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/9551
A very dangerous woman to the Americans alive ?
Slain Italian agent had U.S. operation permission
The Italian agent killed by American forces in Iraq had U.S. military authorization for his operation to win the release of a hostage, Premier Silvio Berlusconi said Wednesday.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-03-09-italy-hostage_x.htm

C O L D B L O O D E D M U R D E R

Chemical weapons on civilians?? Right.......... and how exactly did they use these weapons?? Mustard Gernades? VX Bullets?? The Infantry was in there! Do you have any pics of Marines in MOP gear or are U.S. troops now magically immune to Chem weapons??

the americans used internationally banned cluster bombs on a daily basis, if it wasnt for the lanky big planes used to deliver them 1000s of civilians would be in hospital with chemical burns right now, not jsu the 4 or 5 that are currently being treated

Banned Cluster bombs?? Since when have cluster bombs been banned?? Good lord every air force in existence uses cluster bombs. Cluster bombs are CONVENTIONAL weapons. They are not Chemical. If your are talking about being burned from an air-fuel bomb or white phosphorus, that is a totally different thing. They are not 'Chemical Weapons' in the same catagory as Nerve agents or Blister Agents. In your deffinition, every weapon uesed is a 'Chemcial' weapon as they all use some type of chemical propellant. And I highly doubt they were dropping white phosphorus. In fact, they dont even have white phosphorus cluster bombs. And since when did the U.S or any other country drop cluster bombs in Civilian areas??? There is no point. Cluster munitions are used on troop formations and some have anti-armor capability. You do not drop them in residential areas to get rid ouf a couple bad guys in a house. Where do you guys come up with this crap???

Legal or not, cluster bombs, air-fuel burst bombs or white phosphorus are not weapons that would be used in a populated area by armed forces with any concern for civilian non-combatants.

by cluster bombs, im referring to the large phosphorous bombs that spew out phosphorous over a large area

the americans used internationally banned cluster bombs on a daily basis, if it wasnt for the lanky big planes used to deliver them 1000s of civilians would be in hospital with chemical burns right now, not jsu the 4 or 5 that are currently being treated
What treaty has the United States ratified that bans the use of cluster bombs, or white phosphorous?
Legal or not, cluster bombs, air-fuel burst bombs or white phosphorus are not weapons that would be used in a populated area by armed forces with any concern for civilian non-combatants.
And this is exactly why they aren't. Cluster bombs are used primarily against tank or infantry concentrations, depending on the submunition employed. Thermobaric bombs (FAE) are used against buildings, but as far as I'm aware have yet to be used in combat. Not only do they strike too indiscriminately to be used in close proximity to noncombatants, but the targets they are best suited for generally are not located close to population centers anyway.

America has been caught lying .....................again

A very dangerous woman to the Americans alive ?


C O L D B L O O D E D M U R D E R

Just two things..If she was dangerous to the Americans why is she alive and if she has information about the US why hasnt it been released??

And now Sgrena and her boyfriend are backtracking once again and changing their stories.Now it seems they dont think she was targeted by US forces. :p Just another lie from her after they both claimed she was targeted for assasination last week.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=619206

Americans were not trying to kill me, hostage decides
By Peter Popham in Rome

The Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who was wounded by American fire last Friday soon after being released by kidnappers in Baghdad, has said that she does not think that the Americans were trying to kill her. "I never said that they wanted to kill me," she said on a television talk show, "but the mechanics of what happened were those of an attack."

In an interview with The Independent, her partner, Pier Scolari, said: "None of us is so stupid as to think the Americans did it on purpose. But the dynamic was that of an ambush and we want a convincing explanation of what happened, because the first American explanation was totally false."

Thats funny because this is what they were saying last week..

http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file= article&sid=3096

"The United States doesn't approve of this (ransom) policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible."

"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive,"

I wont even get started with 400 rounds from an armoured vehicle claim because its laughable.

All we have from Sgrena is lie after lie and the changing of her story with each passing day and its sad that she uses a tragedy and the death of a hero to push her own false agenda.

Bullshit she said this 16 hours ago
Today in Italy
Special service by AGI on behalf of the Italian Prime Minister's office

SGRENA: "I DEMAND ANSWERS FROM GOVT"
(AGI) - Rome, March 11 - "I want the government to investigate on what happened", said Giuliana Sgrena, in an interview with Spanish TV broadcast by Sky TG24, her first ever since she was freed. "The government is looking at various accounts of the facts", she said, "but my account coincides with the one provided by the car driver, who also survived. We demand concrete answers on what really happened. Obviously an inquiry commission will be set up. I do have faith in them. What happened was just terrible. Our questions need to be addressed. And not only by the Italian government, but by Mr Bush himself. Sure, we won't come to the truth, but let's hope that at least this time around, they do everything in their power to have a plausible account. The man who was killed was Nicola Calipari, one of Italy's best secret services agents. His death has moved the country". To this regard, she further added, "I don't know whether (the US soldiers) did it on purpose. I just think their behaviour was unacceptable. And not just cuz I was in that car, but cuz Nicola was killed. We were in an area monitored by American troops, close to the airport. Obviously Iraqi guerrillas couldn't get there, and even if there had been any of them in our car, the soldiers' behaviour would still be unacceptable. You can't shoot point blank on a car and on the people riding in it. We weren't given any notice, nor were we told to stop. Had they told us to and had we refused to comply, then their reaction would have been explainable. But that just wasn't the case. Similar episodes occur every day. Americans shoot at cars, for no reason. This time, though, they had no excuses. They should have known we were riding. That's why I demand answers. I'd like to know why the US tank was not informed we were passing through. We didn't even notice it", she concluded. (AGI) .
112037 MAR 05 http://www.agi.it/english/news.pl?doc=200503112037-1274-RT1-CRO-0-NF11&page=0&id=agionline-eng.oggitalia
Here is an opinion piece .
Giuliana Sgrena forced to shut up about what happened to her in Iraq
Saturday, March 12, 2005

The Bush-lovin' Italian government wants (1) Giuliana Sgrena to shut up about what happened to her in Iraq, and she has apparently taken the hint (2), and now claims that she does not believe the Americans were trying to kill her (3). I don't blame her for this, as we don't need this issue to blunt the effect of the reporting she will be doing regarding what took place in Falluja. We are able to draw our own conclusions on what happened to her http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10329&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Bullshit she said this 16 hours ago

Here is an opinion piece .

I see and once again after claiming Americans were trying to assasinate her she now says something completely different so which is it???Why the lies???I already showed two very different stories from her and I have a hard time believing that the Italian government is keeping her quiet after her lunatic rantings after a week and a half.And an opinion piece which believes she is being quieted is a far cry from evidence that shes actually being quieted.And you still fail to answer the two most important questions.

1)If she was targeted for assasination why is she still alive and why did the US take her to the hospital??

2)If she has information about American atrocities why hasnt she released it??

This absurd assasination story continues to fall apart for Ms.Sgrena and it just doesnt add up..And if your going to claim that she was targeted for assasination at least make sure that the US even knew she was in the car..

Here again Marioli says that the US wasnt informed that she was in the car until the last minute so so much for the Negroponte "hit squad" theory ;)

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1110699186202B234


Rome - American officials in Iraq were told that an Italian intelligence officer was there to free a hostage - but only at the very last minute, shortly before United States troops opened fire on their vehicle, killing the officer and wounding the woman, Italian media reported on Sunday.

Several Italian dailies cited a report now in the hands of Rome prosecutors by Major General Mario Marioli, an Italian who is the coalition forces' second-in-command.

So people jump on a tragedy with no evidence to push an "I hate America agenda" but under the slightest scrutiny it continues to fall apart at the seams.And if your going to claim she was assasinated I hope you can do much better than that. :)

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=15050_Sgrena_Fiasco_Updates&only=yes


The Italians say the car was swerving around cement blocks in the road when a bright light went on
...
American checkpoints are well-marked and generally consist of a serpentine route through concrete barriers if permanent, or concertina wire if temporary.

Anyone passing through is expected to slow their vehicle to a crawl and show identification, even U.S. troops.
...
American officials in Iraq were told that an Italian intelligence officer was there to free a hostage - but only at the very last minute
...
Marioli [an Italian General] said US authorities were aware that the agent, Nicola Calipari, and another officer were in Iraq, but only he knew why. He said Calipari had told him not to tell the Americans they were there to collect a hostage.


so,
1) she was swerving uncontrolably around the "cement blocks in the road" (are those the cement baricades of a checkpoint?), and
2)the US soldiers weren't notified about her release or approach, nor
3) the Italian agent's purpose of being in Iraq.

so to the US soldiers it was just another car, going uncontrollably around a possible checkpoint, or at least in their direction.

heh, asphalt, i just read you got the same quote

The only problem with cluster bombs is modern ones create clouds of DU in the air... bad for future generations... other than that they are very good weapons, and ARE NOT banned, lots of countries use them.

heh, asphalt, i just read you got the same quote

Its one that explains alot about the sitution.. ;) The simple fact is that Sgrena through her irresponsible actions got herself kidnapped because she thinks terrorists are her friends and ended up getting an Italian hero killed.Add that to Italys own woeful actions of paying millions to terrorists and failing to inform the US she was there and you have the makings of a tragedy and nothing else.All these claims about targeted assasination are absurd as they dont make any sense but facts never seem to matter to people with agendas.

1)She lied about the 400 rounds.
2)She changed her story about being targeted
3)Her boyfriend changed his story about her being targeted
4)She says they were swerving around puddles almost losing control of the car but says they were going slow
5)They swerved around concrete blocks
6)The Italian general says that the US didnt know she was released until minutes before the shooting
7)People keep claiming that she has something on the US but after 2 weeks nobody still has any idea what.. :rolleyes:
8)American soldiers took her to the hospital after people claimed they tried to assasinate her. :rolleyes:

Two things need to be clarified: Why the US would want her dead Why they would entrust some rank and file riflemen in their late teens and early 20s to carry out such a task
As usual the tinfoil AMERIKKKA crowd seems to be grasping at straws.

As usual the tinfoil AMERIKKKA crowd seems to be grasping at straws.

Ya think??????? ;)

I see and once again after claiming Americans were trying to assasinate her she now says something completely different so which is it???Why the lies???
No she hasn’t she has stuck to her story the media like yourself are playing on words and taking her statements out of context .
I already showed two very different stories from her and I have a hard time believing that the Italian government is keeping her quiet after her lunatic rantings after a week and a half.And an opinion piece which believes she is being quieted is a far cry from evidence that shes actually being quieted.And you still fail to answer the two most important questions.
This is from today , what don’t speak don’t lie , here is an Italian official telling her to shut up .
Italy official asks reporter to temper her remarks
BOLOGNA, Italy — Italy's justice minister urged former hostage Giuliana Sgrena yesterday to stop making "careless" accusations after being shot by U.S. forces in Baghdad.
Sgrena has repeatedly suggested U.S. soldiers shot her on purpose shortly after she was released. She said yesterday that she had little faith in a joint investigation by Italy and the United States into the "friendly fire" incident that left an Italian intelligence agent deadhttp://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002205054_iraqdig12.html
1)If she was targeted for assasination why is she still alive and why did the US take her to the hospital??
Because the US bungled it and there were witnesses , I thought that at least would have been obvious.
2)If she has information about American atrocities why hasnt she released it??
It has already been released .
Napalm Raid on Falluja?
73 charred bodies -- women and children -- were found
By Giuliana Sgrenahttp://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html
This absurd assasination story continues to fall apart for Ms.Sgrena and it just doesnt add up..And if your going to claim that she was targeted for assasination at least make sure that the US even knew she was in the car..
The US knew she was in the car .
Berlusconi: U.S. Given Advance Notice of Sgrena Rescue
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/9551
Here again Marioli says that the US wasnt informed that she was in the car until the last minute so so much for the Negroponte "hit squad" theory ;)
Slain Italian agent had U.S. operation permission
The Italian agent killed by American forces in Iraq had U.S. military authorization for his operation to win the release of a hostage, Premier Silvio Berlusconi said Wednesday.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-03-09-italy-hostage_x.htm
So people jump on a tragedy with no evidence to push an "I hate America agenda" but under the slightest scrutiny it continues to fall apart at the seams.And if your going to claim she was assasinated I hope you can do much better than that. :)
Where has it fallen apart at the seams ? She is sticking to her story this is an interveiw with her from yesterday .
The Sunday Times - Review
March 13, 2005

Interview: John Follain meets Giuliana Sgrena
I know they were out to get me

When American soldiers opened fire on the car carrying the Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad airport, she ducked behind the front seat while her companion Nicola Calipari — the intelligence officer who had freed her from kidnappers only a short while earlier — shielded her. Seconds later, a single shot to the head killed him.

I feel more sorry towards the italian negotiator than her.

No she hasn’t she has stuck to her story the media like yourself are playing on words and taking her statements out of context .

How am I taking this out of context or playing on words???She changed her story after lying for the first week.

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=619206


The Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who was wounded by American fire last Friday soon after being released by kidnappers in Baghdad, has said that she does not think that the Americans were trying to kill her. "I never said that they wanted to kill me," she said on a television talk show, "but the mechanics of what happened were those of an attack."

In an interview with The Independent, her partner, Pier Scolari, said: "None of us is so stupid as to think the Americans did it on purpose. But the dynamic was that of an ambush and we want a convincing explanation of what happened, because the first American explanation was totally false."





Because the US bungled it and there were witnesses , I thought that at least would have been obvious.

What witnesses????? :p Do you just make stuff up as you go along???

It has already been released .

The Iraqis foreign Minister could have told us that and he did a week earlier so its not like this was riviting news and certainly not worthy of an assasination attempt..


The US knew she was in the car .

Sorry but Berlusconis second in command is disputing that and you can can ignore Marioli all you want but it doesnt help your case very much when the military commander in Iraq is saying the US wasnt informed until minutes before the attack...




Where has it fallen apart at the seams ? She is sticking to her story this is an interveiw with her from yesterday

I thought the Italians were keeping her quiet so which is it??? ;)

The whole thing fell apart..First she claimed they were trying ot kill her and now she says they didnt.She says they fired 400 rounds at the car but from the pictures it look like only a few bullets were fired at the engine and at the side of the car.The Italian General contradicts Berlusconis version and
says the US wasnt informed she was in the car until minutes before the shooting.She says she wasnt speeding but swerving around puddles almost made them lose control of their car. :rolleyes: Then you give me an opinion piece about Sgrena being forced to shut up but you post interviews from her today.

This story about targeted assasination is junk and your really stretching now.......

I feel more sorry towards the italian negotiator than her.

Everybody should because hes a hero who would have never been in that position had Sgrena not thought terrorists were her friends.

Well it seems they were closer to her friends than the americans who nearly killed her dosnt it?

Well it seems they were closer to her friends than the americans who nearly killed her dosnt it?

Do you think they would have released her if the Italians didnt pay for her??? :rolleyes:

She changed her story after lying for the first week.
No she hasn’t I posted an interview with her yesterday she is sticking to her story .
What witnesses????? :p Do you just make stuff up as you go along???
The people who saw the event go down , or are you saying no one was there .
The Iraqis foreign Minister could have told us that and he did a week earlier so its not like this was riviting news and certainly not worthy of an assasination attempt..
What the fact that the US was using banned weapons in Fallujah which she was inside at the time of the attack , I posted the links to her story in the thread .
Sorry but Berlusconis second in command is disputing that and you can can ignore Marioli all you want but it doesnt help your case very much when the military commander in Iraq is saying the US wasnt informed until minutes before the attack...
What do you mean it doesn’t help my case I provided you with 2 links which counter what Marioli says and yet Berlusconi is Prime minister and he must know and you accept the word of his junior .
I thought the Italians were keeping her quiet so which is it??? ;)
Im sorry mate your losing me here , its an interview with John Follain what has this to with Italians keeping her quiet .
The whole thing fell apart..First she claimed they were trying ot kill her and now she says they didnt.She says they fired 400 rounds at the car but from the pictures it look like only a few bullets were fired at the engine and at the side of the car.
Again I posted an interview from yesterday , her own words , she hasn’t changed her story, the only ones saying she has is the US and allied media .
The Italian General contradicts Berlusconis version and says the US wasnt informed she was in the car until minutes before the shooting.She says she wasnt speeding but swerving around puddles almost made them lose control of their car. :rolleyes:
I don’t give a fuck Berlusconi says he was given advance notice , he is adamant .
Then you give me an opinion piece about Sgrena being forced to shut up but you post interviews from her today.
There you go playing with words , where did I say “forced” ? I said it was an “Italian official telling her to shut up “
This story about targeted assasination is junk and your really stretching now.......
I have answered all your questions that you put forward to me , I provided current daily links to compliment my answers you are still sticking with the same old stale rebukes , its a cop out . And just a reminder this isn’t the first reporters America has killed .
They shoot reporters, don't they?

The demands for the investigation into this latest killing are clamoring. In a strong rebuttal to the acting US Ambassador in London David T. Johnson, Naomi Klein of the UK Guardian provided factual evidence of selective ‘elimination’ by US forces and their surrogates. She cites several instances of such crimes against journalists, doctors, and clerics. And not surprisingly, the victims were all outspoken against the horrific actions carried out against civilians all in the name of democracy.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10360&l=i&size=1&hd=0

No she hasn’t I posted an interview with her yesterday she is sticking to her story

No she isnt and all you have to do is read the quotes I provided from her last week and what shes saying today and its completely different.I'll try one more time and then I give up as its obvious you refuse to admit that last week she claimed the Americans targeted her and this week she says they didnt.

Last week:

http://freeinternetpress.com/module...name=News&file= article&sid=3096

"The United States doesn't approve of this (ransom) policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible."

"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive,"

And now heres where her and her boyfriends stories changes......

Your article:

"I don't know whether (the US soldiers) did it on purpose. I just think their behaviour was unacceptable. And not just cuz I was in that car, but cuz Nicola was killed.

Independent:

http://news.independent.co.uk/europ...sp?story=619206

Americans were not trying to kill me, hostage decides
By Peter Popham in Rome

The Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who was wounded by American fire last Friday soon after being released by kidnappers in Baghdad, has said that she does not think that the Americans were trying to kill her."I never said that they wanted to kill me," she said on a television talk show, "but the mechanics of what happened were those of an attack."

In an interview with The Independent, her partner, Pier Scolari, said: "None of us is so stupid as to think the Americans did it on purpose. But the dynamic was that of an ambush and we want a convincing explanation of what happened, because the first American explanation was totally false."

Just face it..Shes been now caught in one lie after another and now wants to change her story and you fell for it.. ;)



The people who saw the event go down , or are you saying no one was there .

So now your saying that some people in that unit knew about the alleged hit and some didnt??? :rolleyes:



What the fact that the US was using banned weapons in Fallujah which she was inside at the time of the attack , I posted the links to her story in the thread .

I read it and shes offers absolutely no proof whatsoever that banned weapons were used..Lets look at what she said:

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html

Nobody could confirm if napalm bombs have been used in Falluja,but other bodies found last year after the fierce battle at Baghdad airport were also completely charred and some thought of nuclear bombs

No independent source could verify the facts, since all the news arrived until now are those spread by journalists embedded with the American troops, who would only allow British and American media to enrol with them.

So she has absolutely no idea if napalm bombs were used or not and its more speculation from her.(she seems to do that alot but she is a Communist )And where does it say she was in Fallujah at the time of the attacks???You need to read that article again because all of your claims are speculation...Man your easy to fool...




What do you mean it doesn’t help my case I provided you with 2 links which counter what Marioli says and yet Berlusconi is Prime minister and he must know and you accept the word of his junior .

Because his second in command in Iraq is correct..Seems like Silvio jumped the gun when he didnt have the facts and thats ok because that happens but to keep denying it after the facts start to come out is foolish..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4341387.stm

Gen Marioli's testimony is crucial because he is the man who was keeping the US forces informed of the car's arrival before the fatal shooting, in which a US patrol killed the secret service agent and injured Ms Sgrena and a second officer.

Gen Marioli's version, as reported by the papers, also contradicts a reconstruction by the Italian government and Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who said the US military had been advised that Ms Sgrena was on board the car.
The US military have said they had no knowledge of the rescue mission.

So yeah,ill take the word of the man responsible for keeping the US in the know about the car any day of the week of Silvio who had no clue.....



Im sorry mate your losing me here , its an interview with John Follain what has this to with Italians keeping her quiet .

You already lost yourself..Your opinion piece that you provided focuses on the government keeping her quiet and yet shes still giving interviews so it doesnt make much sense as usual so why should I take it seriously??



I don’t give a fuck Berlusconi says he was given advance notice , he is adamant .

Ok..If you want to take the word of Belusconi over the man who was actually in charge of keeping the US informed about the car then thats your choice but it doesnt make you right.....

There you go playing with words , where did I say “forced” ? I said it was an “Italian official telling her to shut up “

Its your opinion piece,not mine...........

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10329&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Giuliana Sgrena forced to shut up about what happened to her in Iraq
Saturday, March 12, 2005


I provided current daily links to compliment my answers you are still sticking with the same old stale rebukes ,

You cant even admit the most obvious in that she claimed that America targeted her for assassination and then backtracked so forgive me when I laugh at you for claiming im sticking with the "same old stale rebukes"...Maybe if you would just admit your wrong about her changing stories I wouldnt have to keep rehashing the same argument over and over again..


its a cop out

The only cop it out is you ignoring the man in charge of keeping the US informed about the car in favor of Silvio and denying that Sgrena story has gone from they were trying to assassinate me to I dont think they were trying to assassinate me..And if your going to start a thread titled "Is this why Giuliana Sgrena was targeted for assassination by the US?" make sure your main source is claiming that.... :p One more time for you...

http://news.independent.co.uk/europ...sp?story=619206

Americans were not trying to kill me, hostage decides
By Peter Popham in Rome

The Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who was wounded by American fire last Friday soon after being released by kidnappers in Baghdad, has said that she does not think that the Americans were trying to kill her. "I never said that they wanted to kill me," she said on a television talk show, "but the mechanics of what happened were those of an attack."






. And just a reminder this isn’t the first reporters America has killed
Absolutely but journalists being killed and journalists being targeted for assassination like you claim are two very different things...

Do you think they would have released her if the Italians didnt pay for her??? :rolleyes:

yes... :bugeye:

yes... :bugeye:

Well then click your heels three times and say "theres no place like home" to return from Oz ;)

Either way now even some in the Italian government are claiming Italian ineptitude


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C2089-1522893%2C00.html

Gustavo Selva, chairman of the standing committee for foreign affairs in the lower house of parliament,

Selva claimed that the attack on the Toyota Corolla carrying Sgrena and Nicola Calipari, the intelligence officer, to Baghdad airport had been prompted by a satellite monitoring system. This detected that their vehicle did not have clearance from US military authorities. A signal alerted a mobile checkpoint near the airport and its soldiers opened fire.

“The Italian team should have known what to expect, but it appears they didn’t realise how sophisticated the American military are,” said Selva.

And could someone explain why they were in a rented Corolla and not an Italian armoured SUV???

How the hell do you blast a speeding car full of holes and blaim it on someone else, have the soliders not heard of road block and check for documents?... I really doubt an italian armoured SUV would sheild them from DU rounds anyway...
Just because I dont agree with you dont be so arrogant as to say Im from Oz.

How the hell do you blast a speeding car full of holes and blaim it on someone else,.

Well at least your admitting the car was speeding now........ :rolleyes: And are you saying that incompetance on the part of the Italians had nothing to do with the shooting after all the links ive provided from Italian officials saying otherwise????Cmon now...



have the soliders not heard of road block and check for documents?....

They were swerving around the cement blocks as pointed out here earlier......




I really doubt an italian armoured SUV would sheild them from DU rounds anyway....

I didnt ask whether they would stop them or not........I want to know why they had a Corolla instead of using a standard armour plated SUV that would be afforded to a SS agent working to free a prisoner........


Just because I dont agree with you dont be so arrogant as to say Im from Oz.

Your right..My bad.. :)

Well at least your admitting the car was speeding now........ :rolleyes: And are you saying that incompetance on the part of the Italians had nothing to do with the shooting after all the links ive provided from Italian officials saying otherwise????Cmon now...





They were swerving around the cement blocks as pointed out here earlier......






I didnt ask whether they would stop them or not........I want to know why they had a Corolla instead of using a standard armour plated SUV that would be afforded to a SS agent working to free a prisoner........




Your right..My bad.. :)



1. I never said they werent speeding,
2. they wouldnt have swearved and required shooting had they hset up a proper road block.
3. corollas are just so much cooler than suvs... travel in style.
4. good thanks.

just a question... maybe they sold the armored SUV and were hurrying to the airport to spend the money at the dutyfree...

1. I never said they werent speeding,

Its hard keeping track of everyones positions buts its blantantly obvious that she wasnt losing control of the car avoiding puddles doing 30.. ;)



2. they wouldnt have swearved and required shooting had they hset up a proper road block.

Maybe not but I agree with you that mistakes were made and this is a terrible tragedy but if people like the author of this thread are going to claim she was targeted for assasination they should expect to be called out on the massive inconsistencies of Sgrenas story...It also doesnt help when the man responsible for letting US troops know about the car failed to inform them until minutes before the shooting occured...



3. corollas are just so much cooler than suvs... travel in style.

I prefer my Camry :D


4. good thanks.

No prob and chalk it up to being passionate during debate...

just a question... maybe they sold the armored SUV and were hurrying to the airport to spend the money at the dutyfree..

:p

@asphalt
Which part of “she didn’t change her story” don’t you understand ? I posted that interveiw from her yet you still argue elsewise .
And predictably the hit squad has been cleared of any wrong doing by the Bush junta ……….
Bush administration clears US troops in slaying of Calipari and wounding of Sgrena

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/031505Madsen/031505madsen.html
And contrary to your babbled ramblings , the Italians stick to their story
The Italians claim the interior light in the car was on, the car was traveling at only 30 miles per hour, and prominently displayed the Italian flag. Italian intelligence officials also believe that the Americans identified the Italian vehicle because National Security Agency systems had intercepted Calipari's cell phone signals and triangulated its specific location.
Here is the best news though !
Italy withdraws troops from Iraqhttp://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=7415

Quote from source stated above: "Many of the beheading videos show masked men who do not appear to be extremist Muslim Iraqis or even Arabs from their build, stance, sporting of jewelry, and, in one case, speaking Russian."

Ahahahahaha, chechens...

@asphalt
Which part of “she didn’t change her story” don’t you understand ? !

The one where last week she said that they were targeting her and your interview in which she says she has no idea if they were targeting her..It couldnt be any more clear where she changed her story and yet you still dont seem to get it...Now read
s...l...o....w....l.....y

Last week:

"The United States doesn't approve of this (ransom) policy and so they try to stop it in any way possible."

"Giuliana had information, and the US military did not want her to survive,"

Your interview:

"I don't know whether (the US soldiers) did it on purpose. I just think their behaviour was unacceptable. And not just cuz I was in that car, but cuz Nicola was killed.

So can you please explain to me how claiming she was targeted last week and then claiming she has no idea if she was in your interview means shes being consistent????Your argument is almost as good as claiming she had evidence that the US used illegal weapon and that she was in Fallujah during the attack...



I posted that interveiw from her yet you still argue elsewise .

Your own interview contradicts what she said last week..Can you show in yourt interview where she claims she was targeted intentionally???Of course you cant because she changed it......



And predictably the hit squad has been cleared of any wrong doing by the Bush junta ……….

This is a joke right??Thats some article and I cant find one named source for his claims and im supposed to take this seriously????Could you at least provide one more article backing up these claims???

But after looking up Wayne Madsen I found that every one of his articles names not one source for his claims..`Heres one where he claims that Karl Rove approved the Hariri assasination.. :rolleyes: Look at his "sources".. Respectable journalism at its finest with this one.. :p

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/031105Madsen/031105madsen.html


According to high-level Lebanese intelligence sources—Christian and Muslim—

Lebanese intelligence sources report

A number of intelligence sources

reported one key source.




And contrary to your babbled ramblings , the Italians stick to their story

I might take it a bit more seriously if your author offered just one named source for his claims because in all honesty this could one of the most ridiculous source I have ever seen trying to be used during a debate........ ;)

Here is the best news though !

Hate to disappoint you but your wrong again........ :p ;)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L16167445.htm

ROME, March 16 (Reuters) - Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi on Wednesday appeared to backtrack from his proposal of withdrawing troops from Iraq starting from September, saying the date was only his hope and could be changed.

"There's never been a fixed date," Berlusconi told reporters.

"It was only my hope ... If it is not possible, it is not possible. The solution should be agreed with the allies

Ok one last time these were Giuliana Sgrena last recorded words ........

” I know they were out to get me “

Giuliana Sgrena March 13, 2005

SHE HAS NOT CHANGED HER STORY

Got it :)

Woman needs some serious medication.

Hate to disappoint you but your wrong again........ :p ;)
These were his words recorded live on Italian TV no mistake here .
Italy to withdraw troops
While taping a state TV talk show yesterday, Berlusconi said, "In September, we will begin a gradual reduction of the number of our soldiers in Iraq."

The Apcom news agency quoted Berlusconi as saying: "I've spoken about it with (British Prime Minister) Tony Blair. We need to construct a precise exit strategy, public opinion expects this and we'll discuss this soon."

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2005/03/16/962580-sun.html[/URL]
Does your link actually say anywhere that Berlusconi will NOT withdraw troops.

Ok one last time these were Giuliana Sgrena last recorded words ........



SHE HAS NOT CHANGED HER STORY

Got it :)

Now its "last recorded words"??? :p Cmon man,your really stretching now as that wasnt the point...Cant you just answer my question??Did she or did she not say this???

http://news.independent.co.uk/europ...sp?story=619206

The Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena, who was wounded by American fire last Friday soon after being released by kidnappers in Baghdad, has said that she does not think that the Americans were trying to kill her. "I never said that they wanted to kill me," she said on a television talk show, "but the mechanics of what happened were those of an attack."

In an interview with The Independent, her partner, Pier Scolari, said: "None of us is so stupid as to think the Americans did it on purpose. But the dynamic was that of an ambush and we want a convincing explanation of what happened, because the first American explanation was totally false."

As Clockwood pointed out this woman is in some serious need of medication...


These were his words recorded live on Italian TV no mistake here

I know what he said but you jumped the gun again......


Does your link actually say anywhere that Berlusconi will NOT withdraw troops.

I thought it was quite clear but I guess not.......

"It was only my hope ... If it is not possible, it is not possible. The solution should be agreed with the allies."

Now its up in the air as he has no idea...Do I think he will pull the troops to get re-elected???Absolutely,but does 3000 trooops really matter anyway??For so many people that called the "coalition of the willing" a sham its amusing to watch so many people get all giddy when they actually take their troops home... ;)

Now its "last recorded words"??? :p Cmon man,your really stretching now as that wasnt the point...
That was her last recorded words before she was operated , as that link I gave you was a person to person interveiw .
Cant you just answer my question??Did she or did she not say this???
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Apparently not ...............

That was her last recorded words before she was operated , as that link I gave you was a person to person interveiw . ...............

I know they were and she changed them and thats the point..Here it is again...And this was person to person as well so whats your point??

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=619206

"I never said that they wanted to kill me," she said on a television talk show, "

So i'll try one more time to give you a chance to be honest here..Did you she or did she not say whats quoted above??


Apparently not ...............

Sure... :rolleyes:

So i'll try one more time to give you a chance to be honest here..Did you she or did she not say whats quoted above

No it appears your article has misquoted her what she actually said


Hostage's shooting 'no accident'

Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has said she cannot accept US troops accidentally fired on her car after her kidnappers freed her in Baghdad.
Ms Sgrena told the BBC Americans guarding Baghdad airport might not have been informed about her arrival, but their actions could not be excused.

Earlier, she suggested US troops might have deliberately tried to kill her.

The US military, who said troops fired on the speeding car after it failed to stop, has opened a full investigation.


I am very very sad, I am very painful for him [Nicola Calipari]
Giuliana Sgrena

An Italian secret service agent, Nicola Calipari, who negotiated Ms Sgrena's release, died as he shielded Ms Sgrena from the shots.

Warning

Ms Sgrena told BBC News she could not say "why they shot at us in this way".
"But it's a very big responsibility and we ask a response on what happened," she said.

"It can't be just said that it was just an accident. We can't accept this, it is not possible."

She said Italian officials knew her car was on the airport road and she assumed they had informed the Americans.


DIFFERING ACCOUNTS
US : Forces fired on a vehicle that was approaching at high speed
Troops attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots
When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block
Sgrena : The driver had spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy that we were on our way to the airport
We were less than a kilometre [from the airport]... when... I remember there was shooting
The driver began screaming that we were Italian
We weren't going particularly fast given that type of situation


She could not say if she was deliberately shot at "because we can't say if there was misinformation, but also misinformation in this case is a responsibility because you are in a war field".

"You have to have the responsibility to pass immediately any information and the information was given to the Italians that we were on the road so I think that they have given the information to tell the Americans that we were on the road."

Earlier, in another interview with Sky Italia TV, she said it was possible the soldiers had targeted her because Washington opposed the policy of negotiating with kidnappers.

"Everyone knows that the Americans do not like negotiations to free hostages, and because of this I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target," she said.

And writing in her left-wing Il Manifesto newspaper, she said upon her release her kidnappers warned her to be careful 'because there are Americans who don't want you to go back'."

State funeral

Ms Sgrena paid tribute to Mr Calipari, whom she described as "a very special man" who gave her hope.

Italian media say at least 10,000 people have visited Rome's Vittoriano monument, where the body of Mr Calipari, who is being treated as a national hero, is lying in state.

He will be given a state funeral on Monday.





"I am very very sad, I am very painful for him," she said.
The incident in Baghdad threatens to have continuing political fallout in Rome, says our correspondent there, David Willey.

Pressure will grow on Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, a staunch ally of US President George W Bush, to reconsider the wisdom of keeping on Italian peacekeepers in Iraq, our correspondent says.

Already, the Italian foreign ministry has warned all Italian nationals to avoid travel to Iraq.

Ms Sgrena was abducted on 4 February, and later appeared in a video begging for help and urging foreign troops to leave Iraq.

Much of the country was opposed to the US-led war in Iraq and the government's decision to send 3,000 Italian troops to Iraq.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/4323361.stm

Published: 2005/03/06 19:09:13 GMT

© BBC MMV

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4323361.stm


Thats what she said .

Foley, I'll go with the cold blooded murder theory. The US govt has lost all credibility and any moral authority it ever possessed. Almost any public announcement about a controversial issue, can be used as a contrary indicator.

Anyone who still supports this decayed corpse of democratic freedom, deserves the future they have helped to midwife with their willfull ignorance.

Foley, I'll go with the cold blooded murder theory.
If you look at how many reporters who have been killed in Iraq like the Reuters killings and hear what ther colleagues are saying it becomes no theory . These reporters are all experienced wartime reporters and know the difference between accidental death due to crossfire and outright ambush . Obviously the US is simply killing reporters who delve to deep into the occupations secrets .
The US govt has lost all credibility and any moral authority it ever possessed. Almost any public announcement about a controversial issue, can be used as a contrary indicator.
As time progresses America is no longer caring about its credibility and is acting similar to Stalinist attitudes .
Anyone who still supports this decayed corpse of democratic freedom, deserves the future they have helped to midwife with their willfull ignorance.
Ah yes well spoken , I would much prefer these cheerleaders themselves go to Iraq to serve .

Is this a bad time to say that im going to iraq to report on the goings on photographically?

Is this a bad time to say that im going to iraq to report on the goings on photographically?
For real? Cool! I hope you'll share what you find, and more importantly, that you'll keep yourself safe.

Not that soon but this year sometime... thinking between cuba and iraq the two places I want to visit before they change drastically. going to buy tickets sometime in the next few months when I get family complaints off my back.

thanks for the concern though stokes :) ill be sure to share the info.

UPDATE:

March 23, 2005

U.S. bars Italians from examining victim’s car

Associated Press


ROME — The U.S. military command in Iraq has blocked two Italian policemen from examining the car in which an Italian intelligence agent was shot to death in Baghdad, a newspaper said Wednesday.
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-740304.php

So if Guliana was according to the US occupational authories a liar and her assasination claims were fantasy , why are they preventing a proper investigation ?

Dear Mr. Brian,

If you were right on any one of your many many conspiracies, you would be dead by now. But yet here you are once again killing bandwidth.

Dear Mr. Brian,

If you were right on any one of your many many conspiracies, you would be dead by now. But yet here you are once again killing bandwidth.
If sheeple like yourself could see that what I write is good logical analysis and believed what I wrote as truth then I would be dead . However the world is full of people like yourself who just trust their leadership so to the authorities I am just a lone voice in an immense forest ...........
Italian agent Calipari: A target of opportunity for US assassins
High-level European intelligence sources report that the 51-year old slain Italian SISMI military intelligence agent, Dr. Nicola Calipari, killed by U.S. sharpshooters while accompanying the freed Italian hostage—Il Manifesto journalist Giuliana Sgrena—to Baghdad International Airport, was a prized target of opportunity for American assassins because of his knowledge about past Republican White House ties to Saddam Hussein's nuclear program.
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/032205Madsen/032205madsen.html

If sheeple like yourself could see that what I write is good logical analysis and believed what I wrote as truth then I would be dead . However the world is full of people like yourself who just trust their leadership so to the authorities I am just a lone voice in an immense forest ...........

Its quite possible that its "good logical analysis" but how could we ever know when the source you keep using never names any of his sources???Mr.Madsen seems to be the only one who reports this and yet it never appears anywhere else..I wonder why?? ;) Wasnt it also Madsen who claimed that Karl Rove gave the ok for the Hariri assasination based on "high level European intelligence sources"?? :rolleyes:

http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/032205Madsen/032205madsen.html

High-level European intelligence sources report

Moreover, European intelligence sources report

You actually believe this junk and call people "sheeple"??? :p

Its quite possible that its "good logical analysis" but how could we ever know when the source you keep using never names any of his sources???
Coming from you that’s rich ! Read the article the sources he lists Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, Time, The American Spectator , the Sunday Times of London , Secretary of State James A. Baker III , Agriculture Secretary Clayton Yeutter, Rep. Henry Gonzalez's House Banking Committee. Attorney General Richard Thornburgh .
You actually believe this junk and call people "sheeple"??? :p
One thing is for sure on this thread you haven’t proven elsewise and before I forget you seem to be avoiding answering this from page 3 .
So i'll try one more time to give you a chance to be honest here..Did you she or did she not say whats quoted above

No it appears your article has misquoted her what she actually said


Hostage's shooting 'no accident'

Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has said she cannot accept US troops accidentally fired on her car after her kidnappers freed her in Baghdad.
Ms Sgrena told the BBC Americans guarding Baghdad airport might not have been informed about her arrival, but their actions could not be excused.

Earlier, she suggested US troops might have deliberately tried to kill her.

The US military, who said troops fired on the speeding car after it failed to stop, has opened a full investigation.


I am very very sad, I am very painful for him [Nicola Calipari]
Giuliana Sgrena

An Italian secret service agent, Nicola Calipari, who negotiated Ms Sgrena's release, died as he shielded Ms Sgrena from the shots.

Warning

Ms Sgrena told BBC News she could not say "why they shot at us in this way".
"But it's a very big responsibility and we ask a response on what happened," she said.

"It can't be just said that it was just an accident. We can't accept this, it is not possible."

She said Italian officials knew her car was on the airport road and she assumed they had informed the Americans.


DIFFERING ACCOUNTS
US : Forces fired on a vehicle that was approaching at high speed
Troops attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots
When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block
Sgrena : The driver had spoken twice to the embassy and to Italy that we were on our way to the airport
We were less than a kilometre [from the airport]... when... I remember there was shooting
The driver began screaming that we were Italian
We weren't going particularly fast given that type of situation


She could not say if she was deliberately shot at "because we can't say if there was misinformation, but also misinformation in this case is a responsibility because you are in a war field".

"You have to have the responsibility to pass immediately any information and the information was given to the Italians that we were on the road so I think that they have given the information to tell the Americans that we were on the road."

Earlier, in another interview with Sky Italia TV, she said it was possible the soldiers had targeted her because Washington opposed the policy of negotiating with kidnappers.

"Everyone knows that the Americans do not like negotiations to free hostages, and because of this I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target," she said.

And writing in her left-wing Il Manifesto newspaper, she said upon her release her kidnappers warned her to be careful 'because there are Americans who don't want you to go back'."

State funeral

Ms Sgrena paid tribute to Mr Calipari, whom she described as "a very special man" who gave her hope.

Italian media say at least 10,000 people have visited Rome's Vittoriano monument, where the body of Mr Calipari, who is being treated as a national hero, is lying in state.

He will be given a state funeral on Monday.





"I am very very sad, I am very painful for him," she said.
The incident in Baghdad threatens to have continuing political fallout in Rome, says our correspondent there, David Willey.

Pressure will grow on Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, a staunch ally of US President George W Bush, to reconsider the wisdom of keeping on Italian peacekeepers in Iraq, our correspondent says.

Already, the Italian foreign ministry has warned all Italian nationals to avoid travel to Iraq.

Ms Sgrena was abducted on 4 February, and later appeared in a video begging for help and urging foreign troops to leave Iraq.

Much of the country was opposed to the US-led war in Iraq and the government's decision to send 3,000 Italian troops to Iraq.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/4323361.stm

Published: 2005/03/06 19:09:13 GMT

© BBC MMV

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4323361.stm

Coming from you that’s rich ! Read the article the sources he lists Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, Time, The American Spectator , the Sunday Times of London , Secretary of State James A. Baker III , Agriculture Secretary Clayton Yeutter, Rep. Henry Gonzalez's House Banking Committee. Attorney General Richard Thornburgh . .

And once again for you on the charge that the US intentionally targeted Calipari he names not one source for his claims..Man your hard headed even when its right in front of your face..And if your going to make claims that now the SS agent was targeted I hope you can do better than someone saying "high level European intelligence" says so because not one other person is reporting this...Got it??

One thing is for sure on this thread you haven’t proven elsewise and before I forget you seem to be avoiding answering this from page 3

Im avoiding it because its not even the same interview..I gave you her comments which she said on an Italian news show and you come back and give me an interview with the British BBC and say I misquoted her which is just more insanity from you..If your having a hard time keeping up then I cant help you and I figured this little distraction is to get away from the Madsen article as quick as you could because you cant back it up the info with one credible source..... ;)

...Got it??
He has put a theory forward , like I have , and to give substance to his theory he has provided sources such as LISTED within the article .
Im avoiding it because its not even the same interview.
No I said as an answer to your question , as you well know …….
No it appears your article has misquoted her what she actually said
And I gave you a legitimate interveiw as a source .

He has put a theory forward , like I have , and to give substance to his theory he has provided sources such as LISTED within the article ..

He hasnt provided any named sources for his claims that Calipari was intentionally targeted..Thats my only problem and he did it in both articles where hes made wild claims.......If your going to make claims that Karl Rove approved Hariris assasination or that Calipari was targeted you better have some named sources...

No I said as an answer to your question , as you well know …….

What you actually said was that the Independent "misquoted" Sgrena which was blatantly false..

And I gave you a legitimate interveiw as a source .

Im not denying she said what she said..I said she changed her story which she clearly did........

At the end of the day it looks like Ms.Sgrena is full of shit and claiming that Americans are trying to kill you because of what you know and then giving me an article where she says she doesnt know if banned weapons were used doesnt make your argument very strong.Combine that with some outlandish claims by Wayne Madsen who never names a source and im quite comfortable with my claim that the Sgrena was a terrible accident and not a targeted assasination.

If your going to make claims that Karl Rove approved Hariris assasination
Im sorry point to where on this thread or anywhere on this forum I made that claim ?
What you actually said was that the Independent "misquoted" Sgrena which was blatantly false..
Absoluely not I gave you the original interveiw Sgrena gave which other media outlets worked from .
Im not denying she said what she said..I said she changed her story which she clearly did........
Wha..what ! im sorry you are babbling here !
At the end of the day it looks like Ms.Sgrena is full of shit and claiming that Americans are trying to kill you because of what you know and then giving me an article where she says she doesnt know if banned weapons were used doesnt make your argument very strong.Combine that with some outlandish claims by Wayne Madsen who never names a source and im quite comfortable with my claim that the Sgrena was a terrible accident and not a targeted assasination.
Or more correctly you have run yourself into a brick wall and cannot provide any credible reason nor argument to counter my theory . Goodnight .

Dear Mr. Asphalt,
You wrote:

At the end of the day it looks like Ms.Sgrena is full of shit and claiming that Americans are trying to kill you because of what you know and then giving me an article where she says she doesnt know if banned weapons were used doesnt make your argument very strong.Combine that with some outlandish claims by Wayne Madsen who never names a source and im quite comfortable with my claim that the Sgrena was a terrible accident and not a targeted assasination.

>> Whatever Sgrena claims, has no bearing on whether or not the US was trying to kill her. She could be a habitual constant liar; I hope that you understand that does not necessarily provide any evidence one way or another. Sgrena's opinion is only that; an opinion. She may incorrectly believe that she was targetted. However, even if she believed that it was an honest mistake, that does not necessarily mean that she was not targetted.

>> The fact that Mr. Brian has provided an article with unnamed sources, gives you comfort, that the article is not true? Boy you are easily comforted. The lack of a named source does not in and of itself disprove an article.

After looking at the facts; (especially the refusal by the US to allow the vehicle to be examined!!) I'd have to say that Brian's version of events comes across as more credible than yours.

I've found that when people have put their faith in the official story, no amount of factual evidence will sway that faith. But I believe there is an objective reality (often NOT the "official story") available to those with curious minds. Please keep asking questions and don't give in to baseless faith.

*sigh*
Its all just one big neo-con conspiracy. Im sure the U.S. Government has spent Billions of Dollars tracking this reporter. :bugeye:

Troops make mistakes all of the time and accidently fire on "friendly" vehicles. Yet, I have not seen Brian's Theories on that. No doubt all of the 'friendlies' knew the truth about Kennedy....

>> Whatever Sgrena claims, has no bearing on whether or not the US was trying to kill her. She could be a habitual constant liar; I hope that you understand that does not necessarily provide any evidence one way or another. Sgrena's opinion is only that; an opinion. She may incorrectly believe that she was targetted. However, even if she believed that it was an honest mistake, that does not necessarily mean that she was not targetted..

I couldnt give a rats ass about her opinion and that was the point as its been chewed up and spit out.......


>> The fact that Mr. Brian has provided an article with unnamed sources, gives you comfort, that the article is not true? Boy you are easily comforted. The lack of a named source does not in and of itself disprove an article.

Not that its not true but if your trying to convince that its true make sure you provide more than a Wayne Madsen article who once claimed that Karl Rove is responsible for the Hariri assasination... :rolleyes: Its the tin foil hat brigade in action and not one credible news source is claiming the garbage that Madsen floats out there..Ill make you a deal..Find me one legitimate source CNN,NYT,Guardian,Indepoendent,Daily Telegraph,Washinton Post,Washington Times,or anywhere else for that matter and maybe ill take the claim a bit seriously..Ill be waiting patiently..............

I'd have to say that Brian's version of events comes across as more credible than yours.




So Brian gives an article by Wayne Madsen but cant find one credible source to back it up,says that Sgrena knew the US was using banned weapons but in her own article admits she has no idea,claims Berlusconi says the Americans knew she was there when the Italians # 2 General is disputing that(and its painfully obvious why because paying millions to terrorists is frowed upon)and you call that credible???? :p

I say

1)She wasnt speeding but they almost lost control of the car
2)She says she was targeted for assasination but then says she has no idea
3)The # 2 man in Iraq says that US forces didnt know she was coming until minutes before she was hit


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4341387.stm

US forces might not have known that slain Italian secret agent Nicola Calipari was in Iraq to secure a hostage's freedom, Italian papers say.
Calipari was killed by US troops' fire while escorting journalist Giuliana Sgrena by car to Baghdad airport.

But the press quotes an Italian general who liaised between US forces and Italian intelligence as saying he did not know Calipari was on a rescue bid.

His report is now in the hands of Rome prosecutors investigating the killing.


After looking at the facts; (especially the refusal by the US to allow the vehicle to be examined!!)

Well why dont you try learning the facts before acting like you know them...........Are people really this ignorant?? :rolleyes:

Once again you take the claim of one newpaper which made the claim and that was the last you heard of it..The last I heard was that the Italians asked the US Justice Department for the release of the car and as of now I have no idea where thats at...As for the policeman being denied can you find me one person from the Italian government whos making that claim??Again,ill wait patiently as it should be quite easy to find........The real FACT is that not one person from the Italian government is claiming that the US denied the Italians access to the car..............Try harder...........................




I've found that when people have put their faith in the official story, no amount of factual evidence will sway that faith. But I believe there is an objective reality (often NOT the "official story") available to those with curious minds. Please keep asking questions and don't give in to baseless faith.

I dont have any faith in the official story and will wait for the investigation but if your going to try to convince me that it was a targeted assasination you better do better than Sgrena word which is shit and Wayne Madsen articles that are tin foil conspiricies backed up by absolutely NOTHING.........

*sigh*
Its all just one big neo-con conspiracy. Im sure the U.S. Government has spent Billions of Dollars tracking this reporter. :bugeye:


Damn those neo-con Jews........ :rolleyes:

Shh...According to Brian is because she has evidence of banned weapons being used in Fallujah but if you actually read the article it says something quite different.....

http://www.ilmanifesto.it/pag/sgrena/en/420dd721e0ff0.html

The sad story of common graves, which started at Saddam’s times, is not yet finished.Nobody could confirm if napalm bombs have been used in Falluja,but other bodies found last year after the fierce battle at Baghdad airport were also completely charred and some thought of nuclear bombs. No independent source could verify the facts, since all the news arrived until now are those spread by journalists embedded with the American troops, who would only allow British and American media to enrol with them. But the villagers who fled in the last few days spoke of many bodies which had not been buried: it was too dangerous to collect the corpses during the battle.

And im supposed to take people seriously when they say she was targeted because she had evidence Americans used banned weapons????But then again newjesustimes finds Wayne Madsen credible but doesnt find anything compelling about the Italians #2 General saying the US had no idea she was even there until seconds before she was hit..:rolleyes:

Ahh well.........

>> Well why dont you try learning the facts before acting like you know them...........Are people really this ignorant?? :rolleyes:

Unless you were there, you don't really "know" either, do you?
So yes people really are this ignorant, yourself included.
You've got to realize that you're basing your assumptions on stories written by people who are paid to be parrots. Personally, I choose not to put my faith in their so-called facts, which truly are mere assertions by people who may have something to gain by hiding the truth.


>> I dont have any faith in the official story
GOOD!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!

>>if your going to try to convince me that it was a targeted assasination (SIC)
I was NOT trying to convince you that it was a targeted assassination.
I'm not claiming that it necessarily was - I just am doubting the official story and finding the alternatives plausible, as compared to making up my mind first and then looking for every and any way to deny alternatives.

If you've ever been on the wrong end of abuse of power, then you know how stuff like this can happen, and how easily it can get swept under the proverbial carpet of justice.
If you haven't, consider yourself lucky and perhaps a bit naive...

Unless you were there, you don't really "know" either, do you?
So yes people really are this ignorant, yourself included....

Ignorant about what???



You've got to realize that you're basing your assumptions on stories written by people who are paid to be parrots.

This coming from the person who just told me he put faith in a junk story about the US not allowing the Italians to see the car??And I see you couldnt find anyone from the Italian government making that baseless claim... ;)

Again,I can only work with whats been said and try to break it down to form my own opinion and that is:

1)Sgrenas story is all full of holes
2)Her story about why she was targeted for assasination is junk
3)The #2 General who was the liason between Calipari and the US say they werent informed that it was a rescue mission until 2 minutes before she was hit
4)The story about the US preventing the Italians from seeing the car was the claim of one newspaper and no Itaian official has ever made that claim...



Personally, I choose not to put my faith in their so-called facts, which truly are mere assertions by people who may have something to gain by hiding the truth.

I didnt shoot her so I have nothing to lose or gain...


>> I dont have any faith in the official story
GOOD!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!

Im not the one who claimed she was targeted for assasination though..


I was NOT trying to convince you that it was a targeted assassination.
I'm not claiming that it necessarily was - I just am doubting the official story and finding the alternatives plausible, as compared to making up my mind first and then looking for every and any way to deny alternatives.

Ok..Not you,Brian which you told me you agreed with..Then I proceeded to tear apart his tin foil hat source,his garbage article about how she knew napalm was being used but couldnt prove it,and that the Italian in charge of Calipari is giving a very different story about what the US knew about her...All I asked for was one other source to back up the "alternatives" and its painfully obvious now that you cant find any so forgive me for not taking them very seriously.......

If you've ever been on the wrong end of abuse of power, then you know how stuff like this can happen, and how easily it can get swept under the proverbial carpet of justice.

If the US troops did something wrong then punish them but dont make baseless claims like many here did and not think you wont be called out on it.....


If you haven't, consider yourself lucky and perhaps a bit naive...

Ok..Thanks for the advice.....

Im sorry point to where on this thread or anywhere on this forum I made that claim ?.

My fault.. ;) I posted it to show that your source is an idiot.........

Absoluely not I gave you the original interveiw Sgrena gave which other media outlets worked from .

Where are you getting that this is the "original" interview or that this is what" other medias outlets worked from"??Your actually making things up now!! :rolleyes: The quote I used was from an interview she gave with an Italian television show..Nobody misquoted her like you keep suggesting and if your going to make that claim then put your money where your mouth is and back it up......Or do really believe she did one interview that week??

Wha..what ! im sorry you are babbling here !

Is it really that hard to understand???Im not denying she said she was targeted as I alreay told you she changed her story..What isnt debatable is a week later her and her boyfriend were singing a very different tune and one that you keep denying even in the face of overwhelming evidence........

Or more correctly you have run yourself into a brick wall and cannot provide any credible reason nor argument to counter my theory .

Because your theory is asinine based on tin foil conspiricy nut Wayne Madsen,napalm accusations that Sgrena herself said she cant prove,and 1 newspaper that said the US stopped two policemen from seeing the car though not one person in the Italian government has made that claim......And you wanna talk about running into a brick wall??? :p

QUESTION: What has America to hide from their allies the Italians ?

Sgrena's car
Thursday, March 24, 2005


The United States promised 'full cooperation' (1) to Italian authorities in their investigation of the attack on the car carrying Giuliana Sgrena to the Baghdad airport. Apparently, 'full cooperation' doesn't include allowing the Italian investigators to actually see the car in which she was being driven, as the Pentagon has barred two Italian policemen from examining the car (2). This is the respect the Americans show their ally Italy, whose citizens are dying in the place of Americans in the illegal and immoral American occupation of Iraq. Of course, the Americans can't show the Italians the car, as the bullet holes in it would clearly demonstrate that it was not the subject of some unfortunate checkpoint misunderstanding, with bullets flying everywhere from terrified American soldiers, but a carefully planned and executed ambush engineered to kill only one person, Giuliana Sgrena. The bullets were fired to stop the movement of the car, allowing the sniper one clean shot at the intended target.
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m10669&l=i&size=1&hd=0

ANSWER:COLD BLOODED MURDER

If we actually were trying an assassination, why leave the job only part done? Why not kill them all and blame the insurgents, a claim few would have disputed. Instead, we bring her back to civilization and face the accusations anyway. If you are going to do the time, you may as well commit the crime.

If we actually were trying an assassination, why leave the job only part done?
Because it was a bungled operation .
Why not kill them all and blame the insurgents, a claim few would have disputed.
Because as noted earlier in this thread the Italians all said America was savvy to their opeartion to bring back Sgrena . Blaming insurgents would of been utterly unbeleivable .
Instead, we bring her back to civilization and face the accusations anyway. If you are going to do the time, you may as well commit the crime.
No once again US troops bungle the operation .

Bungled? She was sitting right there with American soldiers all around. That is like shooting at someone and missing while the gun is pressed to their head.

And people would certainly believe it was insurgents. After all, people of all walks of life there get their asses blown off by those nutters on a daily basis. You could have said that they hit a roadside bomb or were ambushed by guys with AK-47s. You could even say it was unexplained and the natural presumption would be that the nisurgent nutters took the time to blow up one more thing despite their already busy schedual.

"Because as noted earlier in this thread the Italians all said America was savvy to their opeartion to bring back Sgrena . Blaming insurgents would of been utterly unbeleivable .", Brian Foley

Considering that it was a road block, a fact that the italians do not dispute, I am trying to figure out how this is an "operation".

Secondly, considering the Americans did indeed stop firing, how was this a blown operation. Why would they not just finish it? No one would have heard about it had all of those italians died anyway.

Brian, I think you spite for America makes you miss the obvious.

QUESTION: What has America to hide from their allies the Italians ?



ANSWER:COLD BLOODED MURDER

Now Ill ask again..Can you provide one Italian official that has made this claim???Of course you cant because it doesnt exist..So the next time you refer to people as "sheeple" make sure your not falling hook,line,and sinker for a story that not one official has ever said was true........Brian Foley,sheeple extroidinaire........... :p :p

And im still waiting for your response about making things up and claiming that my quote from the independent was "misquoted" or that the interview your using to make things up is what the reporters "worked off from"??

Because as noted earlier in this thread the Italians all said America was savvy to their opeartion to bring back Sgrena . Blaming insurgents would of been utterly unbeleivable .

.

Thats a LIE...The general in charge of Calipari disputes what your saying..How many more times must it be posted before you figure out that your fantasies about assasination are destroyed by his testimony to Italian investigators?? ;)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4341387.stm

US forces might not have known that slain Italian secret agent Nicola Calipari was in Iraq to secure a hostage's freedom, Italian papers say.
Calipari was killed by US troops' fire while escorting journalist Giuliana Sgrena by car to Baghdad airport.

But the press quotes an Italian general who liaised between US forces and Italian intelligence as saying he did not know Calipari was on a rescue bid.

His report is now in the hands of Rome prosecutors investigating the killing.

According to newspaper La Repubblica, Gen Mario Marioli helped the two Italian secret service agents obtain a special badge from the coalition forces on their arrival in Baghdad.

But Gen Marioli, who is the coalition forces' second-in-command, reportedly was unaware that the officers were on a mission to free Ms Sgrena, and so the information he passed on to US officials was incomplete.
Fatal coincidence

Gen Marioli's testimony is crucial because he is the man who was keeping the US forces informed of the car's arrival before the fatal shooting, in which a US patrol killed the secret service agent and injured Ms Sgrena and a second officer.

Gen Marioli's version, as reported by the papers, also contradicts a reconstruction by the Italian government and Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who said the US military had been advised that Ms Sgrena was on board the car.

And heres where we get closer to the truth......


Italian media have been speculating that Italy might have deliberately kept the mission wrapped in secrecy because the US did not approve of the ongoing negotiations with the kidnappers.

Because it was a bungled operation .

Because as noted earlier in this thread the Italians all said America was savvy to their opeartion to bring back Sgrena . Blaming insurgents would of been utterly unbeleivable .

No once again US troops bungle the operation .
This is one of stupidest modes of logic I've seen in months.

Why would the US leadership entrust such a task to a bunch of teenagers who would universally talk about what they did once the operation was over?

How is it possible to be simultaneously too incompetent to carry out a political assassination, yet diabolically evil enough to try?

Also, it's "would have" not "would of".

Edit: I asked you this once before in this thread and you couldn't even attempt to answer my simple questions. Put up or shut up.

Why would you spend so much time arguing over an event that really isn't that important? Yes, a man died and that was a terrible mistake but the event is not that important. It's not like it will shape the rest of the world. Why argue for days over this minor event?

How is it possible to be simultaneously too incompetent to carry out a political assassination, yet diabolically evil enough to try?
What you mean that same bungling nation which trumpeted to the World that Iraq was weeks from building an Atomic bomb . Of course no nation in the world believed it yet America was diabolically stupid enough to attempt it . Please give me a reason why American occupational authorities wont co-operate with the Italians , I mean if there is nothing to hide ...............

Brian, I think you spite for America makes you miss the obvious.

I think you are (purposely!) mistaking spite for senseless violence and imperialist activities as spite for America.

The two are not the same, and many Americans know it. I hope one day you'll join them.

Why would the US leadership entrust such a task to a bunch of teenagers who would universally talk about what they did once the operation was over?


One theory is that the task was not actually entrusted to a bunch of teenagers. Since we weren't there, we don't really know. All we know is what we've read. There is an old saying I adhere to; "Don't believe anything you read, and only half of what you see."


How is it possible to be simultaneously too incompetent to carry out a political assassination, yet diabolically evil enough to try?


This is a damn stupid question. Incompetence and evil are not mutually exclusive.


The story about the US preventing the Italians from seeing the car was the claim of one newspaper and no Itaian official has ever made that claim...


I don't dispute this point. HOWEVER - the allegation was printed in many news outlets; you'd think that if indeed, as you repeatedly claim, the story were untrue, that fact would have been printed by one of the many news outlets that reported the first story - (at least once at least somewhere?) to refute this claim that they were not allowed to examine the vehicle. If you can show me that, I'll shut up about it once and for all. :D Otherwise.... your ad hominem claim that the story is junk carries no more weight than the original assertion, that the vehicle was not allowed to be examined.


Ignorant about what???


About what the F really happened! Sometimes we need to be reminded that we are not omniscient.


If we actually were trying an assassination, why leave the job only part done?


Now this I find to be a damn good question, probably the best point made on this whole board. I don't have an answer but there are theories that spring to mind, so to me, this question in and of itself is not proof of just purely an accident. Perhaps shooting and killing one of the passengers, and injuring Sgrena herself was considerd to be enough of a warning to Sgrena to keep her mouth shut, given the thought that causing an "accident" in Italy might not be beyond the reach of the US.

I'm not claiming to believe that Sgrena was targetted for assassination, I am just claiming NOT to believe the official version of events and reserving judgement for later evidence. Especially in light of the numerous cameramen and reporters who have been accidentally killed by the US military in Iraq.

Good day all.

One theory is that the task was not actually entrusted to a bunch of teenagers. Since we weren't there, we don't really know. All we know is what we've read. There is an old saying I adhere to; "Don't believe anything you read, and only half of what you see."So the best alternative is to err on the side of stupidity and fabricate a vast and complex conspiracy that conveniently aligns with your worldview, of course.

This is a damn stupid question. Incompetence and evil are not mutually exclusive.Enabled evil and incompetence are, however.

I don't dispute this point. HOWEVER - the allegation was printed in many news outlets; you'd think that if indeed, as you repeatedly claim, the story were untrue, that fact would have been printed by one of the many news outlets that reported the first story - (at least once at least somewhere?) to refute this claim that they were not allowed to examine the vehicle. If you can show me that, I'll shut up about it once and for all. :D Otherwise.... your ad hominem claim that the story is junk carries no more weight than the original assertion, that the vehicle was not allowed to be examined..

Whats many news outlets??Could you find me one respectable news source thats printed it or as I asked before just one Italian official making that claim???Why do I or any nesws agency have to refute a claim that was ONLY printed by Al Jazeera and Urknet when not one even the Italian government is making this claim????You jumped on the tin foil bandwagon and now when I ask you to back it up you cant so now you put it on me which is a complete joke......Your the one who said you were leaning towards Brians version and that his bogus story about not letting them search the vehicle made it even more suspicious but yet you dont find it suspicious that not one major media outlet reported this or that one Italian official would make a statement about it..Your have your pants wrapped around your ankles and if you think im not gonna let you trip your out of your mind..If your going to tell me that you find Brians version credible then dont be shocked when I ask you to provide proof to back up his fantasies...I'll ask one more time and then im done with you because I see you have a problem with admitting when your wrong..When you say this:

After looking at the facts; (especially the refusal by the US to allow the vehicle to be examined!!) I'd have to say that Brian's version of events comes across as more credible than yours.

You better damn well back up what you call "FACTS" with actual facts......Dont blame anyone else because you jumped on an unverified story and then cant back it up............

So the best alternative is to err on the side of stupidity and fabricate a vast and complex conspiracy that conveniently aligns with your worldview, of course.

Did I do that? Not at all. I chose to review the testimony, look at who has something to gain and or something to hide, look at the pattern of shoot first ask questions later, the pattern of manufacturing good news, and i draw my conclusions. I did not however, fabricate a vast conspiracy. A person was shot. And CBS news reports that "The checkpoint shooting has had a profound impact on relations between the U.S. and Italy. Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi is now seeking a way to withdraw all Italian military forces from the American-led coalition in Iraq."
So I'm increasingly sure that your belief that "it was just an accident, and newjesustimes is a conspiracy fabricator" is untrue. Or one might believe that the impact might be less profound. no?

U.S. bars Italians from examining victim’s car
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-740304.php

please try to remain calm.



Whats many news outlets??Could you find me one respectable news source thats printed it or as I asked before just one Italian official making that claim???Why do I or any nesws agency have to refute a claim that was ONLY printed by Al Jazeera and Urknet when not one even the Italian government is making this claim????You jumped on the tin foil bandwagon and now when I ask you to back it up you cant so now you put it on me which is a complete joke......Your the one who said you were leaning towards Brians version and that his bogus story about not letting them search the vehicle made it even more suspicious but yet you dont find it suspicious that not one major media outlet reported this or that one Italian official would make a statement about it..Your have your pants wrapped around your ankles and if you think im not gonna let you trip your out of your mind..If your going to tell me that you find Brians version credible then dont be shocked when I ask you to provide proof to back up his fantasies...I'll ask one more time and then im done with you because I see you have a problem with admitting when your wrong..When you say this:



You better damn well back up what you call "FACTS" with actual facts......Dont blame anyone else because you jumped on an unverified story and then cant back it up............

Whats many news outlets??Could you find me one respectable news source thats printed it or as I asked before just one Italian official making that claim???

Well, let's have it. Is the armytimes not respectable? If, as you repeatedly insist, this story were indeed untrue, would not the army times have follow