I was walking thru the mall the other day, and went by one of those earring kiosks. I just happened to come upon them piercing a little girls ears. The is crying, and trying to get away (she was about 1 or so), and the two women there was just smiling, trying to hold her.

Is that child abuse? I mean, no, it's not forcing a kid to sleep in a rat-infested room or anything, but I think it is, because:

1) The kid is way too young to get anything out of the final outcome - what, she's going to be happy she has earrings at 1 year old? The parents do it for their sakes, not the kids.

2) It's painful, unnecessarily, for vanity's sake.

I just think it's stupid to do that to a kid that can realize no benefit from it.

(I know this is kinda petty, and not a religious topic, forgive me!)

------------------
"It was there, at the edge of the black abyss, that I found myself."
-Patrick Ashley

Pat,

I agree with you on this one. Ear-piercing is something that should be chosen by the girl when she's old enough to make that decision for herself. I imagine it's somewhat traumatic for a 1 year old, and of no value to her at that age. There is even the risk of infection and/or allergic reaction to the metal in the earrings. Although the term "child abuse" seems a bit extreme, I have to agree that it is not a good idea.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

I'd say this fits right in together with circumcision upon birth, or genital mutilation done on girls in the Middle East. When it comes to a person's body, only the body's owner has a right to mess with it. Until the owner is capable of making such decisions, nobody has a right to make them on the owner's behalf -- not even the parents. But that's just my opinion.

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">

Yes, I agree with you on this, Boris. We decided against circumcision when my son was born. Our doctor was very relieved when we told her it wasn't necessary <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon12.gif">

------------------
It's all very large.

I believe that there should be a minimum age at which a child's ears or any other body part may get pierced, with or without the parent's permission. At age one and thereabouts, the child's immune system is still wrapping up it's final stages of development and may not be strong enough to fight off the infections that tend to come along with the piercing. Besides subjecting the child to pain that he or she cannot understand, it also endangers the child's health.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

Regarding the original scenario described, the short answer is "Yes, this is, in my opinion, abusive."

I add here the disclaimer that I am not a parent, and that the state of the present society inclines me against breeding.

The longer answer is that I would assert that such abusive behavior as Pash described in his topic post can be classified with a number of abuses we inflict on children, yet generally ignore for vigilance against greater evil.

Thus, we watch primarily for obvious behaviors deemed inappropriate: pedophilia, use of drugs in childrens' presence, causing children to abet a crime, &c.

I recall that I once had a boss whom I also considered a personal friend; he and his wife pierced their daughter's ears at a ridiculously young age (less than a year old). Now, citing prior mention of pain and medical considerations, I'm wondering if cuteness is justification enough to subject a child to such an event. After all, at this point, I feel like they were playing "dress-up" with a kitten. (But that's just me.)

My own parents abusiveness was obscure; the degree to which they calculated the sheer number of lies they fed to me in order to form my character to their will has left our ability to communicate crippled; furthermore, it alienates the lot of us because rarely do we understand one anothers' motivations; after all, the foundation of our actions and the decisions made to cause those actions is a tangled web of deceit. For instance: I know drugs are bad; why win the fight with lies if you think the truth justifies the goal--that is, if drugs really are so bad (and I don't argue that in general; my own use is its own set of considerations), why did they have to lie to us?

Religion, money, sexuality ... all of it reflected the same faults they tried to exorcise with their lies; this, in retrospect, seems predictable in at least one sense.

A close friend of mine endured having her pants stripped while her father spanked her until she was 17.

Parents bestow racisms and other hatreds to their children.

My own parents taught me to abide by the law; their example was to selectively break it for proper justifications, which history shows consistently to be money issues.

I don't think my own experiences are entirely unique; I see massive, authoritarian presuppositions bleeding all over most familial relations I observe. Few of these presuppositions ever seem to point anywhere else but the whims of the parents' fancies. I know a woman who is sick of racism, fights it on all levels, except that she has always and will always insist that her daughters exclusively date, and eventually marry Asians, so as to "preserve the heritage".

Individually, it's hard to intervene in any of these offenses, but it's hard not to. My own father used to teach me that "someone's got to pay for it" was a proper justification for skewing the news, for the classic wealth/class struggle, ad nauseum. Sure, this doesn't seem like anything that any of his associates should have taken him to task for, but the idea was a farily prevailing one in my locale during my youth. If that consistency holds outside that immediate locale, I start to wonder why we, as a society, are upset with our news media; after all, we've given them license through our consumer actions. Yet, had my father (or the fathers of my friends) taught a different principle ...?

I suppose, then, I'm inviting the question of why we fight abuse: for the individual, or for the society that has to put up with the individual.

What I'm pushing for is that, had the parents thought, in the ear-piercing example given, that what they were doing was harmful, they might not have done it. But the fact that "she's so cute with her little earrings ..." is that much more important than obvious medical considerations (you're driving a needle through flesh, after all), I would assert negligent stupidity instead of intentional abuse.

Of course, I'm entirely aware that I ceased making sense a long, long time ago.

But, yes, I think the example is abusive. But I think it's a subtle poison that we, as individuals and as a cultural whole, gladly accept. Whether this is because we don't care about the consequences of our actions, or because we honestly don't think there are any, is pretty much up to the individual in question.

As an extreme counterpoint, I'm wrestling with the following idea: that, given the availability of Caesarean Section delivery, natural childbirth is, by the standard I've drawn in abstract sand, abusive.

I've still got some thinking to do. ;)

thanx for putting up w/it
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

the more i examine parents in general, the more i come to realize that most of what they do is in selfish motives.

i'm not a parent myself, but i have observed that most parents use their kids to acheive a certain parenting feeling, similar to bragging rights. it's not just that they want their kids to be the best for the child's sake, but for their own personal sense of acheivement.

for instance, i know someone who right out of college was making six figures in a high-profile executive position. but the job was very high stress, and she eventually quit to become a photographer. now, she makes far less, but is much happier. her parents, however, are very dissappointed in her. why can they not be satisfied that she is happy? because her happiness was never the key issue.

this can easily be seen with most all parents with regards to grades in school. did any of your parents ever really ask you if you were learning a lot in school? or did they ask you what your grades are? what about you? did you sit in school hoping to learn, or hoping you would get good grades?

there's a reason that even at such a young age, our schools create a complex rating system to grade and degrade kids. A kids are good, F kids are stupid. i can't remember one example of where the F kids were given more help than the other kids, even though they obviously needed it. in fact, most schools have an advanced program to help the smarter kids.

few people realize how early their academic career had been decided in our education system. studies have shown that kids will live up to their perceived potential. F kids will continue to do badly, and A kids will enjoy higher grades. if your kids starts doing badly in school, change schools. in the majority of cases, the child will begin doing better almost immediately.

the point is that parents pressure their kids to do well in school so they can brag to their friends, so that they can have the bumper sticker, and so that they can feel better about themselves.

i am probably biased in this area because of my own upbringing. at a very young age, my intelligence was tested as extremely high. after that, any grades i brought home that were not As produced the response "you can do better."

in the case of piercing the child's ear, this is just another case of where the parent puts their own happiness and joy ahead of their child's. what concerns me more than the temporary pain of the piercing is the entire upbringing that the child has ahead of them, where the parents will clearly put their own needs far ahead of their children's.

not to worry, though. our country is experiencing a trend of children's rights, and in 30 years, this will not be legal. i wouldn't even doubt if children would be able to sue their parents for such a terrible upbringing.

samus

I paraphrase George Carlin: "When your parents say they care about you and it doesn't matter what you do, they just want you to make something of yourself, they're talking specifically about money. Why do you think the words make something are in the phrase at all?"

samus

If I read your post a certain way, then I've made sense in my earlier post. Should that be the case, I only wish I could have put it into as few words as you: the more i examine parents in general, the more i come to realize that most of what they do is in selfish motives.

thank you for that insight,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Hmm, I dunno, I guess I'm middle of the road on this one.

I had my ears pierced as a little one, I can distinctly remember it, and I believe I was between 2 & 3 when it was done. My parents asked me if I wanted it done, and warned me it would hurt, but I wanted it done anyway. It did hurt, I hollered and yelled, but I did say I wanted to do it, so there you go. I didn't really realize HOW MUCH it would hurt, I knew what was involved in it, but somehow it didn't look as painful when everyone else was doing it.

Now, that's different than this example though. I think the kid ought to be old enough to say if they want it done or not - I doubt this 1 year old was asked, or could even form an answer if she was. I mean, I didn't really understand how painful it was going to be, but I thought I did, so I said I wanted it done. And when it hurt I knew it was my own decision, so that made it a little better, in a sense. I have to say I was glad afterwards, I was quite proud of my pierced ears, even though cleaning them was a pain (literally!), I never had any real infections or anything with them.

Overall, though, I agree with the points Tiassa & Samus have been making. I had a similar experience to what Samus mentioned. I too tested very high as a youngster, and from then on, if I brought home a B, it was "Why couldn't it be an A?" If I brought home an A, it was "This is what we expect of you, we better not see this slip". And heaven forbid I bring home a C or something!! I remember begging my 3rd grade teacher not to give me a C on a test I had taken. The poor woman finally felt sorry for me and let me re-test. I was terrified of bringing home that C! I was crying and shaking so hard I could barely breathe, she had to make me sit down and put my head between my knees, that's how upset I got, that's how hard they pressured me. And that's probably the main reason that once I hit the middle of my sophmore year in high school, my GPA dropped from a 4.4 (due to "AP" classes that have 5 point A's) down to a 2.6 - I got tired of pushing myself (and being pushed) so dang hard and decided to do what *I* wanted to do.

It's hard to define child abuse, I think. Is it child abuse to FORCE your kid to spend all of their "extra" time in music lessons, sports, etc.? Sure, it CAN be good for them, but if they don't want to go, how can forcing them be good for anyone? Unstructured time is also good for kids, in my opinion. It allows for creativity and personal thought, instead of forcing them into a premade mold with the rest of the kids.

And now, some words from a parent. Don't be hard on parents untill you have walked a mile in their shoes. This is a religous issue because the Judeao Christian God, self proclaimed creator of the universe and all that is in it says in His Instruction Book to us that children are gifts to us and that we are to train them in the way they should go in the AM, at noontime, and in the PM. Some of us haven't bothered to read the Instruction Book.

A parent's job is to take a newborn (we aren't even talking about what mom has gone thru over the past 9 months which should give moms ear-ring licenses all by itself)on day one and spend much time with him/her (but not an it). They feed baby over 11,000 times during childhood, change thousands of diapers, put up with and try to steer a NATURALLY selfish and trouble-finding child into a responsible, productive, member of society. MOST parents sacrifice much of themselves for a very significant portion of their lives in order to raise responsible and productive adults. Because of this it would only be natural that they had certain expectations of their children. Money has been mentioned. My dad worked(s) hard, made very good money, and came home angry most of the time. I figured if making money meant being mad all the time I didn't want to make lots of money. My attitude changed after my school years were over. I was on my own, had to buy a water heater for my house, and didn't have a dime. Also about that time I came to realize that my dad was just an angry person and it didn't matter what he did. He's just a rich angry person and if he were poor he would be a poor angry person. He's never flat out said so but he is disappointed I didn't make more of my life financially, however he loves my family! Don't be mad at your parents for having expectations. They have earned the right. Have mercy on them when they seem a little selfish or plain just don't sync sometimes. They raised you and you are reading this so they have some accomplishments under their belts. Don't be hard on parents till you have walked a mile in their shoes.

This is a religous issue because the creator of the universe, in his instruction book, tells parents to watch over their children. Is ear piercing on a 1 year old child abuse? I would never ever take a parent to court for piercing ears at any age. Babies cry when they are tired, hungry, or wet. No, piercing a 1 year old's ear is not child abuse. Here is child abuse: beating a child senseless because they are crying, not hugging a child when they need a hug, not leading a child towards the wonders of this world, which causes them to look in the direction of a Creator, not spending large quantities of time with them, anyone who says I don't have a lot of time for my children but I give them quality is guilty of child abuse. Any parents who don't read with their children the Instruction Book, handed down to us by our Creator, is guilty of child abuse. Oh yeah, any man who encourages a woman to get an abortion is guilty of child abuse big time. Abortion in this country (USA) is as common as car theft. That means about 1 every 30 seconds. I'm surprised no one mentioned that. Numerous comments were made about about parents doing things out of selfishness with their children, which happens. Abortion is the supreme act of selfishness, yep let's not forget that one. Ear piercing in the hispanic community seems cultural. I'm not hispanic so I'm looking from the outside in. Culture is importaint. It is a sign that helps tell others who we are. We have 3 boys. We had them circumcised when they were less than a week old. Many doctors see this as an unnecessary and cruel proceedure. I saw it this way. Our creator commanded it of the Jews, His special, set aside people. I'm not Jewish. I'm Christian, however, I recognize the orthodox Jewish heritige that Christianity comes out of. God is at work among the Jewish people whether they realize it or not. If, on a sinking boat, I could choose a life raft full of Jews or a life raft full of others, I'll get in with the Jews. Our male children have had the "horrible" circumcision proceedure not to make us Jews but to help us remember our roots and heritige. We have not abused our children. Teaching children is a religous experience and growing and learning is sometimes painful but necessary as we watch over our children.

Some of us haven't bothered to read the Instruction Book. This causes a lot of messed up lives but not for any reasons previously mentioned. It causes children to wander away from their roots and they don't know it because they haven't learned their heritage. The neatest thing about life for all of you is that where your parents didn't do it right-you can modify and change and do it better. I wish all of you well.

Tiassa

I add here the disclaimer that I am not a parent, and that the state of the present society inclines me against breeding.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH

Man alive how do I do a crying cheesy grinner

:D :( :D :( :D :( :D :( :D :(

Besides which you always find the long way to say YES.

Allcare

Tony

Oh and BTW now that I've stopped laughing.

Yes child abuse.

Pain and suffering inflicted without sufficient or even any reason apart from vanity.

If it was a life or death situation then yeah make the little squirmer sit still and take the medicine, but for appearances sake only????

Come on humanity grow up a bit please.

Allcare

Tony H2o

Tony,

This then begs the question, how do you feel about circumcision? I would have to imagine that slicing off some of the MOST delicate skin of the MOST delicate part of a male body would have to hurt a lot more than a couple of pinholes in the earlobes.

The parents piercing babies ears have nothing but good intentions. They do it to spare the child the pain when it gets older. What they dont realize is that it hurts a baby much more because their ears are very tender.

Circumcison upon birth should not be restricted at all. Not only is it a religious and practical operation, it has decided health advantages.