Is there Free Will? - SciForums.com

Horseman42

04-17-03, 10:39 AM

heflores,

You really need to grasp what all-knowing means..

I really am amazed how many people cannot understand this simple concept...

There is no contradiction, he is still all knowing. For example. If I place two people in one testing room with two choices that leads out to two rooms, then I'm all knowing that those people will end up in one of the rooms. I have not lost control or knowledge of the system, I merely allowed it to go through a process with known destinations.

You're forgeting all-knowing means to know EVERYTHING! There is nothing unknown to such a being!

If you were truely all-knowing then you would know exactly which room which people would end up in, and would not need to say you know that it would be one of the two.

Man is all knowing about sorting numbers. But until the computer is finished sorting, man does not know where the numbers lie. It is a matter of short time to know, but at the end all knowledge is with god.

I'm a little unsure what your saying in this example. Perhaps I don't know enough about computers. You say Man is all-knowing about sorting numbers. How do you know this?

How does this compare to a being like God who knows everything?

Dr Lou Natic

04-17-03, 10:43 AM

I wish I said something that profound:p

For all intents and purposes we have free will, but the common use for this term is to give blame, I see problems with that.
What I meant by 'we can't decide what those choices will be' is, you can't decide what type of choices you as a person will make. Hitler(he gets used to much I know) didn't choose to make choices that are "bad". He felt they were right for some reason. Just like we might feel its right to help an old lady up thats fallen down. What makes us better? Nothing, we all follow what naturally "feels" right. Thats why I don't think we have free will.
If you have free will couldn't you change your beliefs relgious people? Couldn't you suddenly "decide" to stop believing in god and really mean it?

heflores

04-17-03, 10:47 AM

I think you're being intentionaly stupid.

It is mentioned in the Quran that the universe is expanding and is not constant. Does that mean that if it does not exist today then god does not know all.....It doesn't all have to be known today, it's being formulated by the all powerfull.

God is testing his protype creation in a known environment. Some will flunk and some will pass. God is all knowing of the traits that will make you flunk and the traits that will make you pass.....and in judgement, free will is going to be gone from humans, so there god will be ALL KNOWING. God allows a little bit of respite out of his mercy for the decision to be make....That's pretty darn good knowledge.

wesmorris

04-17-03, 12:43 PM

I'd say YOU'RE being UNINTENTIONALLY STUPID, which is worse eh?

You act as if the Quran has bearing on something besides your emotional problems. That is retarded and you should know it, but you cling to your bullshit value system as if your presumption should be mandated by the fictional deity you force your poor mind to clutch to becuase you're too weak to face possiblities other than that which you attempt to push from the fictional recesses of your somewhat limited brain, into the reality we all supposedly "share". I realize this is compulsory to your weak little mind, but if you're ever interested in removing your stupidity, you'll have to realize that your endeavor (as described above) is your prison of idiocy.

heflores

04-17-03, 01:02 PM

I've trying to intentionally avoid that monkey's ass by the name of Wesmorris, but it's not entirely possible on this site even with my excellent maneuvers.

And let me see, you will help me remove my stupidity, so I start looking and acting more like you....No thanks...I prefer human race.

wesmorris

04-17-03, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by heflores
I've trying to intentionally avoid that monkey's ass by the name of Wesmorris, but it's not entirely possible on this site even with my excellent maneuvers.

Eh, I'll ignore you if you'd like. I do prefer the attempt to eventually stimulate some cranial activity... but if you can't handle it, ignore ME eh? Hehe, apparently, your maneuvers aren't very "excellent" then, right? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by heflores

And let me see, you will help me remove my stupidity, so I start looking and acting more like you.

I really could care less whom you act like, you really shouldn't settle for less than acting like YOU. My only purpose is to learn and teach. Apparently you're not interested in either, as you could apparently learn from me. Doesn't mean you should ACT like me. I'm kind of a jerk, but I can be quite humorous. Oh, and uh.. you really shouldn't front like you're miss fucking innocent either, you're as big of a jerk as I am I'd say, so..... *shrug* I guess we're even eh?
Originally posted by heflores

...No thanks...I prefer human race.

Oh, so now you attempt to dehumanize me? Did you learn how to do that with your silly book? How very human of you. *rolleyes*

If you can't handle a superior argument, you shouldn't go looking for it. Especially if you can't even recognize it when it's right in your face. That's sad.

heflores

04-17-03, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by wesmorris

Oh, so now you attempt to dehumanize me? Did you learn how to do that with your silly book? How very human of you. *rolleyes*

If you can't handle a superior argument, you shouldn't go looking for it. Especially if you can't even recognize it when it's right in your face. That's sad.

Fine Wes, you're cool. Now stop calling my damn book silly. Only I can do that.

Horseman42

04-17-03, 02:01 PM

heflores,

I think you're being intentionaly stupid.

So we have to resort to name calling then?

It is mentioned in the Quran that the universe is expanding and is not constant. Does that mean that if it does not exist today then god does not know all.....It doesn't all have to be known today, it's being formulated by the all powerfull.

Wait a minute here I didn't ever say anything about the Quran. I don't know the Quran well enough to quote from it, if that's what you mean for being stupid then I guess I am.

All I'm simply saying if you believe God is all-knowing then he knows everything. And therefore knows what your going to do before you do it! This is pure logic!

If he doesn't know then he's not all-knowing.

I have no idea what your saying about the universe not existing. Of course it exists we're all here aren't we?

God is testing his protype creation in a known environment. Some will flunk and some will pass. God is all knowing of the traits that will make you flunk and the traits that will make you pass.....

Then logically he must also know who will fail and who will pass.

wesmorris

04-17-03, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by heflores
Fine Wes, you're cool. Now stop calling my damn book silly. Only I can do that.

Fair enough. :D

Oh, but I can't promise about calling the book silly, but my aim isn't to offend you.. so if I do, all you have to do is tell me plainly "that hurt my feelings" or something... and then I'll remember "being right isn't as important as caring about people" (in general) and I'll chill.

heflores

04-17-03, 02:21 PM

What I meant about the universe expanding is that as you know there is a valid theory of expansion that mention that the universe is a sphere revolving around an axis that is attached to a plane. The plane thickens and expands and that's a process that results in the expansion of our universe over time.

The topic of discussion here is about god being the all knowing and how that contradicts with Free will. My answer was, God is all knowing also who created a universe that is expanding meaning part of it is still not existing, so not having the future happen now does not imply lack of knowledge. Same for free will. God has chosen to give man a free will to act with it NOW, and god knows the plan for the future and where man choice will lead him to....

Horseman42

04-18-03, 08:05 AM

heflores,

What I meant about the universe expanding is that as you know there is a valid theory of expansion that mention that the universe is a sphere revolving around an axis that is attached to a plane. The plane thickens and expands and that's a process that results in the expansion of our universe over time.

An interesting theory. I think I've heard of it before as well now that you mention it.

My answer was, God is all knowing also who created a universe that is expanding meaning part of it is still not existing, so not having the future happen now does not imply lack of knowledge.

Wait a minute are you suggesting that God does not know the future? If he doesn't know the future then he does have a lack of knowledge. Then he is not all knowing. I'm a little unsure what you're saying here, but I think it has something to do with space/time.

Same for free will. God has chosen to give man a free will to act with it NOW, and god knows the plan for the future and where man choice will lead him to....

So following you're train of thought if God has a specific plan and knows where man's choice will lead him to then we don't really have free will, because the choices were already made for us.

heflores

04-18-03, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by Horseman42
heflores,

An interesting theory. I think I've heard of it before as well now that you mention it.

Wait a minute are you suggesting that God does not know the future? If he doesn't know the future then he does have a lack of knowledge. Then he is not all knowing. I'm a little unsure what you're saying here, but I think it has something to do with space/time.

So following you're train of thought if God has a specific plan and knows where man's choice will lead him to then we don't really have free will, because the choices were already made for us.

What I'm really saying is God have an ultimate plan that includes all those that will use their free will appropriately in one room and those that abuse it in another room. That is the ultimate plan, to sort out his creation. All the rules of the sorting are known to god, but god does not know ahead of time which path will we take. He knows all the different paths though and where they lead to.

Imajine yourself assigned to the task of testing a bunch of kids in math. You are the all knowing teacher that decides the criteria for passing and for failing and the consequences for passing and failing, but you don't know who will pass and who will fail until the exam is adminestered. God is the same way.

As far as the expansion of the universe analongy, it's a space time problem indeed. For those that experience time, they must extrapolate to think in the future or remember the past. I don't believe god experience time the way we do, minute by minute. I think he is above that dimension of time, afterall, he created it, so he must have total control over it.

Horseman42

04-18-03, 09:48 AM

heflores,

What I'm really saying is God have an ultimate plan that includes all those that will use their free will appropriately in one room and those that abuse it in another room. That is the ultimate plan, to sort out his creation. All the rules of the sorting are known to god, but god does not know ahead of time which path will we take. He knows all the different paths though and where they lead to.

Right so you believe that God is not all-knowing, because he does not know which path we will take.

Either he's all-knowing or not all-knowing. He can't know everything about some things (like rules of sorting) and nothing about others (like what choices we will make) this is not what all-knowing means.

Imajine yourself assigned to the task of testing a bunch of kids in math. You are the all knowing teacher that decides the criteria for passing and for failing and the consequences for passing and failing, but you don't know who will pass and who will fail until the exam is adminestered. God is the same way.

Right so again you believe God to be not all-knowing (because you say he doesn't know who is going to "pass the test")

I'm saying to you if I was an all knowing teacher then I would absolutely know who is going to pass and who is going to fail before I administer the test. Obviously there is no human such teacher anywhere in the world who is all-knowing.

You really need to stop and consider all the factors involved when you atribute God as being all-knowing.

heflores

04-18-03, 10:13 AM

Yes, god knows everything that you do, and the things that you have not done yet. But he is allowing respite for the future. He shares with man the free will so that man may decide for himself. God already knows what man will do, and that does not interfere with man free will, because it's not linear algebra or probabiliyt, it's godly and far more complicated than our knowledge. There is no contradiction between god's knowledge of the future action of man and man's free will....

Horseman42

04-18-03, 10:41 AM

heflores,

I really don't think you know what your talking about. That's ok though we are all here to learn.

Yes, god knows everything that you do, and the things that you have not done yet. But he is allowing respite for the future.

Please explain what you mean by this how does God allow for respite for the future if he knows everything you do, and the things you haven't done yet?

God already knows what man will do, and that does not interfere with man free will, because it's not linear algebra or probabiliyt

You lost me again here. If God knows what we are to do and he has a divine plan for all beings and creatures then we have no free will, because we are only acting as he wants us to act.

it's godly and far more complicated than our knowledge.

Right so why try and understand it. Guess we should all stop listening to reason and just go back to sacrificing our goats then.

There is no contradiction between god's knowledge of the future action of man and man's free will....

Oh there you go trying to explain stuff again. If this statement is true you have yet to prove how.

Simply put....

God is either a) all-knowing or b) not all-knowing

If he is all knowing then he knows all my decisions before I make them. He may allow me free will to make these choices BUT if there is a divine plan for all beings and all of God's creatures then we don't really have free will.

heflores

04-18-03, 10:50 AM

Quote by Horseman42
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I really don't think you know what your talking about. That's ok though we are all here to learn.
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Oh boy, I'm exposed, but that's okay, name me one person in this day and age who know what they're talking about, theists and atheists alike.

quote
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Please explain what you mean by this how does God allow for respite for the future if he knows everything you do, and the things you haven't done yet?
______________________________________________
I told you many time, that god owns time, so his perception of the future is different than ours. This is like trying to explain to you the theory of relativity ^100000000000. Why can't you just accept that you don't know shit and thus will never be able to understand the concept of all knowing.....how about it?

Quote
_____________________________________________
Right so why try and understand it. Guess we should all stop listening to reason and just go back to sacrificing our goats then.
______________________________________________
Your options stinks as much as your logic. You go sacrifice your goat, and I'll go finish raising my kids, making my husband life heaven, discover how to restore urban streams and create more environmentally friendly power dams.

quote
______________________________________________
Oh there you go trying to explain stuff again. If this statement is true you have yet to prove how.

Simply put....
God is either a) all-knowing or b) not all-knowing
______________________________________________

Okay, simply put. Horseman42 is not all knowing, he will never begin to understand a concept called all knowing, because only an all knowing can understand that concept. Horseman42 does not know shit, so he would rather create confusion to appear intelligent, but his all knowing, will let him know one day that he knew shit.

Good enough for you...

Horseman42

04-18-03, 11:20 AM

heflores,

Now your getting a little irrate, and bit nasty.

I told you many time, that god owns time, so his perception of the future is different than ours. This is like trying to explain to you the theory of relativity ^100000000000. Why can't you just accept that you don't know shit and thus will never be able to understand the concept of all knowing.....how about it?

Well I can accept the fact I don't know everything if that what you mean. You have to accept the same though.

Your options stinks as much as your logic. You go sacrifice your goat, and I'll go finish raising my kids, making my husband life heaven, discover how to restore urban streams and create more environmentally friendly power dams.

Right I was being a little sarcastic here. We all want to explore what God is. It's in our nature.

Okay, simply put. Horseman42 is not all knowing, he will never begin to understand a concept called all knowing, because only an all knowing can understand that concept. Horseman42 does not know shit, so he would rather create confusion to appear intelligent, but his all knowing, will let him know one day that he knew shit.

I never said I was all-knowing. There are lot of things I don't know about, and one of them is the nature of God.

If you choose to accept that 2+2=7 that may seam illogical to me and the rest of society, but by all means indulge in your fantasy. I'm only following a natural logical conclusion.

The ideas I have expressed about being all-knowing are hardly my own. There are plenty of intelligent people throughout time that have explored this idea based on these parameters.

Simply I'd like to take credit for them, but quite frankly helfores as you put it I don't know shit.

heflores

04-18-03, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Horseman42

If you choose to accept that 2+2=7 that may seam illogical to me and the rest of society, but by all means indulge in your fantasy. I'm only following a natural logical conclusion.

The ideas I have expressed about being all-knowing are hardly my own. There are plenty of intelligent people throughout time that have explored this idea based on these parameters.

And if we have been created as spidars too, we would have approached a huge female spider for a second of sex and gotten squached to death and thought that was very logical.

The problem of all those scientists is that they are putting themselves in the place of god. They wonder if I was god, how the hell would I know everything and still create something with free will. And they start writing logic for this....With that line of thought, they may confuse a few with them, but they'll never reach any truth....and actually are taking many steps back.

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 11:59 AM

1. God's knowledge cannot be wrong.
2. God knows that I will do A.

The rest of your "assumption" is an attempt to prove God does not exist, by choosing a number of choises and limiting God to YOUR idea of Him and these choises you offer.....

1.God's "knowledge" is not wrong, but you have no idea what that knowledge is or what YOU will do with your "free will", .......He does.

2. God.......by His fore-knowledge knows what you will do, of course.
But you are free to "play it out"........He just know what the result will be.
He saw it all in His mind before the foundation of the world.

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 12:47 PM

God.......by fore-knowledge knew what you will do.
But you are free to "play it out"........He just knows what the result will be.
He saw it all in His mind before the foundation of the world.
This you have admited.

Lets go into this a little further.

A seed does not fully manifest what it is ....untill harvest time.
The tares were the "seed of discrepency", the wheat were the "seed of God"....while immature, they jump for joy receiving the same life giving benifits of the same rain (Holy Spirit)
Many plant shoots look alike as these do untill they are come up to a certain point.....

At the harvest time....they will manifest that which they were from the beginning.
You see..... God is not the "father" of all men on earth.
Cain was of his father the wicked one., and his children today are too.
How did this happen? God allowed Satan to "create" his own race on earth.
Satan is given powers equal to God in every way, except the power to create something from nothing.
He took something already created.......a Serpent, an animal which was the closest creature to man, that he could also possess.....for it was just an animal, and breed this creature with Eve....to create his own people.

Should God then, as any father.....be responcible for the actions of children that are not His?.....
However God is rich in mercy, but these chose not to follow His words.
As Cain murdered his brother, so shall these manifest in the end who they are.
They all look alike on the outside today.
God's children will "hear" His Word and receive revelation from thier Father as Abel did.
All creation groaneth in trevail, for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
The others will manifest a Son of Perdition...the seed of discrepency.

This can only happen at the end....in the rising of the Son, when He comes with His holy angels they will seperate all in His kingdom.
The light of the Son of Man being revealed, and the rain of the Holy Spirit will cause the seeds tro grow and manifest what they are.
Some will be "Sealed" by the revelation of God in thier foreheads, and the others will be marked in their forehead with the mark of the beast......for turning away from the presence of God after He came to them.

But you go on to say "if there is a divine plan for mankind, then we really don't have free will"

In one way this is correct.
Has not the potter power over the clay?
What if, for His good pleasure, he would with longsuffering endure the disobedience of the vessels of dishonor, fitted for wrath and destuction, to show His glory to be revealed in the vessels of honor.?
Him He predestinated, He did foreknow......

There are three types of beleivers in every group.
1. believers
2. maker-believers
3. un-believers
With fear and trembling we each work out our own "salvation" by proving which one of these we are.

Cain was of his "father the wicked one", and yet God told him.....Just do as your brother, and all will be well.

He may not have been a Son of God, but he had a choise that could have saved him.......he choose wrong.
By this, he proved where his representation was from.......Satan or God.

A Son of God is born again as a son, but under tutors (the Holy Spirit) until he be tested and proved, as every son that comes to God is.
Then he is adopted into the family...and set in authority over everything the Father has.
He can chose the wrong over the right and displease God, never coming to manifestation and living His whole life well under the privilages that were to be his.

The Sons of God before the flood, choose to marry the daughters of Men, (Cain's daughters......unbelievers, yet beautiful)
This angered God and He decided to destroy mankind from the earth.
It is prophecied to be the same way today...the beauty of women increases with every generation.....and the Sons of God in this generation, ......"As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man.

We have free will......but a seed is not fully known to the workers what it is to be......untill the harvest time.
But God knows them that are His.

Horseman42

04-18-03, 02:00 PM

heflores,

And if we have been created as spidars too, we would have approached a huge female spider for a second of sex and gotten squached to death and thought that was very logical.

Not sure how spiders fit in to all this but, whatever.

The problem of all those scientists is that they are putting themselves in the place of god. They wonder if I was god, how the hell would I know everything and still create something with free will. And they start writing logic for this....With that line of thought, they may confuse a few with them, but they'll never reach any truth....and actually are taking many steps back.

How right you are. It's an inate behavour for humans to wonder about things outside of their own backyard. I can see the difficulty in humanity trying to understand God. It's like a spider trying to understand a human.

We have to do the best we can to solve these questions. I can't help but think our very souls might depend on the answer.

Horseman42

04-18-03, 02:05 PM

TheVistor,

2. God.......by His fore-knowledge knows what you will do, of course. But you are free to "play it out"........He just know what the result will be.
He saw it all in His mind before the foundation of the world.

Right so there are those who must be "destined" for hell. As God knew this before he made them. I'm unsure why these people should be punished then, but if you say so.

I'm not sure what your getting at with the story of Adam and Eve.

We have free will......but a seed is not fully known to the workers what it is to be......untill the harvest time. But God knows them that are His.

Ok I can see what you mean. We all have free will, but in God's perception it is an illusion.

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 02:37 PM

Right so there are those who must be "destined" for hell. As God knew this before he made them. I'm unsure why these people should be punished then, but if you say so.

I'm not sure what your getting at with the story of Adam and Eve.

==============================

This explains why, they are punished.
You see..... God is not the "father" of all men on earth.
Cain was of his father the wicked one., and his children today are too.
How did this happen? God allowed Satan to "create" his own race on earth.
Satan is given powers equal to God in every way, except the power to create something from nothing.
He took something already created.......a Serpent, an animal which was the closest creature to man, that he could also possess.....for it was just an animal, and breed this creature with Eve....to create his own people.

Should God then, as any father.....be responcible for the actions of children that are not His?.....

They are still under obligation to "obey" Gods Word.

There are three types of beleivers in every group.
1. believers
2. maker-believers
3. un-believers

Believers are believing in Jesus Christ who is the Word

-Believers will obey His word from the heart, which is what God desires in His people...to have a people who worship Him "in Spirit and Truth"
-Make-believers will attempt to obey His Word by obligation, reading the "letter of the Law" and put carnal meaning to it, going through the motions but not having a love of the Word in their hearts.
-Unbelievers will not receive Gods Word at all, but lean unto their own understanding.

heflores

04-18-03, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by TheVisitor
How did this happen? God allowed Satan to "create" his own race on earth.
Satan is given powers equal to God in every way, except the power to create something from nothing.
He took something already created.......a Serpent, an animal which was the closest creature to man, that he could also possess.....for it was just an animal, and breed this creature with Eve....to create his own people.

Should God then, as any father.....be responcible for the actions of children that are not His?.....

oh my god...You really aught to stop reading those weird theories that you are reading. Those words are very very ignorant and offensive. God created all equally, there are no special children or god and sons and daughters of bitches or serpents. For god sake, stop speaking blaphsemy, if you don't know the answer, just say so, don't make up shit.

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 04:17 PM

This is not a "theory".
This is the answer, and every word I said is in the Bible.
This also explains why some will not understand even after being shown the truth.
The Bible has all the answers to life.

Horseman42

04-18-03, 04:18 PM

TheVisitor,

You see..... God is not the "father" of all men on earth.
Cain was of his father the wicked one., and his children today are too

Wait a minute where are you getting this from? Certainly not the Bible, as it teaches we are all Gods children.

God allowed Satan to "create" his own race on earth.

Interesting theory. Although your forgeting God created Satan. So in a then according to what your saying some of us are God's grandchildren if we came from Satan.

for it was just an animal, and breed this creature with Eve....to create his own people.

Again I have to ask where you got this idea from? Eve had sex (in a spiritual way I assume) with the snake? Sounds a little kinky even in a metaphysical sense.

Should God then, as any father.....be responcible for the actions of children that are not His?.....

I think God would still be responsible as they are still part of his "grand design". Or at least in part as they are his grandchildren.

.They are still under obligation to "obey" Gods Word.

Following what your saying then God is not responsible for Satan's children then why do they have to submit to God's laws?

Can you please tell me where you got these ideas from so I can understand it better in your perspective.

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 04:35 PM

The bible speaks of the two creations of Man

The first man was made in the image of God.
God is a spirit. The first man was a spirit man.
A theophany, created by the spoken word. A word body.

There was still no man to "till" the soil.
A man then was also created from the dust of the earth.

We have representation in three different realms.
Were have a Body, A spirt, and a Soul.

When Adam sinned the connection - like an invisible umbilical cord - between the man on earth, and the theophany of the man in heaven......was broken
And He fell into time and death.
That day you will surely die.
A day to God is as a thousand years
Adam died at the age of 950.

Jesus came to "restore" this connection
He like Adam was created by the spoken word of God, in the womb of woman.
He was also theophany, before He was flesh....(unlike us), who come here without knowing "all things" to be tempted in the flesh.
He was the Melchesidec ....who came to Abraham
Jesus said: before Abraham was, I AM.
He came also to manifest God in human flesh.
He was the "first begotton of many brethren.
The Sons of God.

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:19 - For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Philippians 2:15 - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1 - Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 04:44 PM

The Bible also talks about the creation of two races, "The Sons of God", and the "Sons of Men".........these are the same as mentioned in the scriptures in other places as the "children of the kingdom" and the "children of the world"

Jesus always spoke to the multitudes in parables, and said the revelation of these parables which to the "children of the kingdom" only......the bible is written the same way.

Matthew 13:11 - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

This is in the Beginning....,

Life was created on earth , each species being higher and more complex than the last, with animal life being formed up until one was created that could reflect God's image, Man. Species have a certain ability to adapt to their environment but not to change from one species into another, for the scriptures say, " they were commanded each to bring forth of their own kind. It has been proven however, that two species that are lets say, next to one another on the scale of creation can mix and produce a hybrid that was not in the original creation. One example is the Mule, a cross between a Donkey and a Horse. Now this brings me to the mystery of the Serpent's seed.

In the garden of God, the Serpent walked upright, talked to Eve, and eventually beguiled her into disbelieving God's word and believing the devil's lie. The true meaning of the word sin is "unbelief", This Serpent however was merely an animal, and therefore could be possessed and used by the devil, for it did not have a soul like a Man. The Serpent was the closest member of the animal species to Man. Adam was created in the image of God, an attribute of God's own genes, a Son of God. And like a son grows up to reflect the image of his father, Adam was to reflect God's image , to manifest God in this physical realm. He was created the first of a new species, higher in power and authority than the angels," The Sons of God".

Eve was not in the original creation, but was taken from Adam, a by-product, this is why she could be deceived. Lucifer had stated "he desired a kingdom more glorious than Michael's" , and said "I will ascend up and set as God and be worshipped as God". The scriptures say he deceived one-third of the angels in heaven, and when he spoke through the serpent to deceive Eve he was trying to carry out his plans to destroy God's future kingdom and create his own "Satan's Eden ", where he sits as God, and is worshipped as God, by all the peoples of the earth. Science, education, and modern civilization are all a part of his plan to get people to lean on their own understanding, instead of faith in God, who is the Word (1 john 1:1-14 ).

The bible says "God himself came down in the cool of the evening, and talked with Adam". As he listened to the words God spoke he was partaking (eating ) of the Tree of Life, who is God (In the book of Proverbs it says, "the words of a righteous man are as the fruits of the tree of life")The tree of the knowledge of good and evil , was the serpent , which they were commanded not to eat of least they die. ( a mixed tree containing the truth mixed with lies) The best lie is the one that contains 99% of the truth, and only 1% lie. The Serpent said to Eve, "surely you shall not die, but your eyes shall be opened and you shall be like gods". Adam was created by the spoken Word. Satan can not create something from nothing, he can only pervert something God has already created, so he used the serpent to seduce Eve and thereby create a hybrid race. It's been documented many times that a woman can have sex with two different men within a 24 hour period and conceive by both of them ,giving birth to twins, both of different fathers.

The scriptures say "Cain was of his father the wicked one", And after being with the serpent, Eve went to show Adam this that she'd learned, the bible says" Adam knew his wife Eve, and she bore him a son, Cain, and then bare his brother Abel. So there are two sons representing two separate races, The Sons of God, and the Sons of Men. Abel, being a true Son of God, received revelation from God about what had happened in the garden , that it had been blood (not an apple or something) that had caused the fall and had driven them out, and it would take blood, the blood of an innocent one, to bring them back to an unfallen state. Since the whole human race had fell into sin, he saw it would take a kinsman redeemer (Jesus Christ), God coming down as a man to die for our sins, releasing His Holy Spirit to come back upon humanity as a tutor and guide them back into all truth . In the new testament it says " they who are led by the spirit of God, these are called the Sons of God".

Cain received no such revelation, being of the serpent's seed, and offered to God a selection of the grains of the field , which were the fruits of his own labors, and his offering was rejected. After Abel was killed, Adam had another son through Eve and his name was Seth. Through Seth's lineage God's line was restored. These Sons of God lived by faith , they were commanded to be separate and not marry amongst the unbelievers of Cain's lineage. They lived enormous lifespans because they walked with God by faith, so much until one (Enoch) walked so close with God that he was translated and was not found. The lifespans of Cain's lineage are not recorded in the bible, they didn't walk by faith in God but leaned to their own understanding, and builded cities , and were the artificers of brass and iron , and the creators of musical instruments. The two races stayed separate until the Sons of God, saw the daughters of men that they were fair , and took themselves wives. This then mixed the races together, and God grieved he ever made man and decided to destroy the world.

Horseman42

04-18-03, 05:13 PM

TheVisitor,

First off I'm not sure what Bible or Religion you are using to support all these beliefs because most of what you just said I was not taught.

This is not to say it's untrue, but let me see if I follow you...

In the garden of God, the Serpent walked upright, talked to Eve, and eventually beguiled her into disbelieving God's word and believing the devil's lie.

Never heard of the "snake" walking upright. Even if it did it lacks the correct physiology to mate with a human. I guess a possessed one might be different though.

The best lie is the one that contains 99% of the truth, and only 1% lie.

Ok I can believe this.

Satan can not create something from nothing, he can only pervert something God has already created, so he used the serpent to seduce Eve and thereby create a hybrid race. It's been documented many times that a woman can have sex with two different men within a 24 hour period and conceive by both of them ,giving birth to twins, both of different fathers.

Right so Eve had sex with the snake. That evil bitch. Please quote to me from the Bible (if that's what your using) where it says Eve had sex with the sake, because I don't remember reading that part.

These Sons of God lived by faith , they were commanded to be separate and not marry amongst the unbelievers of Cain's lineage.

Right so we have two "races" of people that come from Cain's and from Seth.

Just wondering who did Cain and Seth take as wives? Where did the extra people come from?

then mixed the races together, and God grieved he ever made man and decided to destroy the world.

Right so when the world was destroyed (I assume you mean the flood here) we became the decendants of Noah and his children.

Did that not set things straight at this point?

I'm a little uncertain about the story of Adam and Eve much less a lot of the "extra details" you included in the story.

There are many questions like why did God allow for all this to happen like this? If God is all-knowing he must have known that Eve would have fornicated with a serpent. Why would God allow the snake in the garden in the first place? Why have such a temptation in the garden in the first place? Why did God want two races of man?

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 06:45 PM

----------
Never heard of the "snake" walking upright. Even if it did it lacks the correct physiology to mate with a human. I guess a possessed one might be different though.
===========
It was not a "snake"It was changed into a snake AFTER it impregnated Eve.
Read this......

Genesis 3:1
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat(partake of) of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,(God was the tree of life....the Word, the Serpent was the tree of good and evil, truth mixed with lies....like the denominations today) God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die(The lie) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened,(they had a holy spirit veil over them, they would lose this and no longer be innocent) and ye shall be as gods,(They had been told to multiply, but not how....they were brought forth by the power of the spoken word.....not made with hands. Satan was telling them how to "create" life by sex...not the intended way, but still creating and therefore being as gods) knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,(spiritual knowledge...Jesus said his flesh, was the Word we should "eat" remember?) and that it was pleasant to the eyes,(there is a way that seemeth right to a man, but the ways thereof is death) and a tree to be desired to make one wise,(she thought he knew something God had not told her....he had her right there..) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,(She had Sex, with him) and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (she showed Adam, and had sex with him)7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. "

Genesis 3:11
"Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

God cursed her were she sinned, in her childbearing...and the Serpent was changed into a snake...

These things have been hidden in the scriptures since the foundation of the world......and are the basis for understanding the mystery of God..which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, and the mystery of iniquity, which is the spirit which worketh now in the children of the world..

--------------
Just wondering who did Cain and Seth take as wives? Where did the extra people come from?
=============
Women were not recorded when born, only sons....because thats who the bloodline is passed through.
Thats why even though Eve was Cains mother, He was called in the scripture: "of his father the wicked one"
--------------

SnakeLord

04-18-03, 06:53 PM

This is two threads i've seen this in so far. Ok, you'd like to tell the world you're a virgin... good on you, but i fail to see any validity in what you say, and fail to see it's importance in a topic such as: "Is there free will". Ok, Jesus too was a virgin- perhaps this is where the mental problems come from? Or perhaps this is why we're all going to hell? We got laid? Shocker.

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 07:07 PM

First off I'm not sure what Bible or Religion you are using to support all these beliefs because most of what you just said I was not taught.
===================
The King James version., Of course you've never heard this.....
It's not a religion, it is the Word of God, made known by the revelation of the Son of Man today, Jesus Christ.

He promised to come in the fullness of the book, when He returned and reveal the mysteries that have been sealed since the foundation of the world, and saved for Him to reveal to His people in this day.

Rev 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

This is the Son of Man, Jesus Christ being revealed from heaven today....right now.
(If you can believe it)

Rev 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

He reveals these things when he comes....to complete the work the mystery of God should to be finished, which is ...the forming of Christ in us.
His Bride needs this understanding , a crystal clear revelation of who He is and who they are to make herself ready today for the marriage.

Rev. 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

SnakeLord

04-18-03, 07:33 PM

The King James version., Of course you've never heard this.....
It's not a religion, it is the Word of God, made known by the revelation of the Son of Man today, Jesus Christ.

You have proof of this or are you just making groundless, basless assumptions? I thought so.. Sorry virgin boy, you need more than that.

TheVisitor

04-18-03, 08:11 PM

If God is all-knowing he must have known that Eve would have fornicated with a serpent. Why would God allow the snake in the garden in the first place?
==============
Rev 18:2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
For one, to create a bird cage.....bodies of flesh for satan's angels to be sent to hell in.........and the age old question of "free will" answered.
And many, many other reasons....these questions cannot be answered with a single senrtence.

Why have such a temptation in the garden in the first place?
==============
God had attributes to express....To be a saviour, a healer, a father, ect....and to show His mighty works in the world.
It was all in His mind from the foundation of the world.

Romans 9:22 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

These things are Spiritualy discerned.....
Unless you be born again, you will in no wise see the kingdom of God.....You must be "quickened of the Spirit to see and compare spiritual things with spiritual.
For what things knoweth a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him.
Also likewise what things of God can be revealed, save by the spirit of god.

1 Cor. 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Cor. 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God

1 Cor. 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God

1 Cor 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

Horseman42

04-18-03, 08:32 PM

TheVisitor,

It was not a "snake"It was changed into a snake AFTER it impregnated Eve.

Ok I see what you mean here. I wonder what the Serpent looked like before it was turned into a snake.

So was it a real serpent or one possessed by the devil? It seams a little unfair for God to curse the serpent if it was only possessed.

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,(She had Sex, with him)

So attributing eating with sex. How interesting almost Freudian. Sorry I can't assume this. This isn't how it's writen.

The King James version., Of course you've never heard this.....

Yeah the same Bible I have in my hands, of course I've never heard of it. Making assumptions again.

For one, to create a bird cage.....bodies of flesh for satan's angels to be sent to hell in.........and the age old question of "free will" answered. And many, many other reasons....these questions cannot be answered with a single senrtence

Right so you don't know the answers either for why God allowed the serpent in the garden. Come on can't you make some more shit up? Surely you can form some opinion?

He reveals these things when he comes....to complete the work the mystery of God should to be finished, which is ...the forming of Christ in us.
His Bride needs this understanding , a crystal clear revelation of who He is and who they are to make herself ready today for the marriage.

What are you saying by this is Jesus getting married? Please stop talking in metaphors just put it in plain English and then quote the Bible if you need to.

So what's the deal with the flood are we are pure now or what? I mean that was God's intent right to start anew.

Horseman42

04-18-03, 08:33 PM

SnakeLord,

good on you, but i fail to see any validity in what you say, and fail to see it's importance in a topic such as: "Is there free will".

Yeah sorry were a little off topic here. Love your comments their priceless!:D

athought

04-18-03, 08:59 PM

Digest this carefully:

"The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to be God. He has placed life and death before his children, and it is for them to choose. If they choose life, they receive the blessing of life; if they choose death, they must abide the penalty. This is a law which has always existed from all eternity, and will continue to exist throughout all the eternities to come. Every intelligent being must have the power of choice, and God brings forth the results of the acts of his creatures to promote his Kingdom and subserve his purposes in the salvation and exaltation of his children." (John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, p. 341)

"He then observed that Satan was generally blamed for the evils which we did, but if he was the cause of all our wickedness, men could not be condemned. The devil could not compel mankind to do evil; all was voluntary. Those who resisted the Spirit of God, would be liable to be led into temptation, and then the association of heaven would be withdrawn from those who refused to be made partakers of such great glory. God would not exert any compulsory means, and the devil could not." (TPJS, 187)

"Temptations without imply desires within; and rather than say, 'How powerfully the devil tempts,' we might say, 'How strongly I am inclined.' God never forces us to do right, and Satan has no power to force us to do wrong." (Sterling W. Sill, April Conf. 1970)

A few other thoughts in my feeble attempts at self-expression:

What if the creation of man were really his organization into a being capable of altering his environment? What if the essence of each being has existed from eternity, just as God has existed from eternity? I know that such ideas have been distributed, but may not be widely known.

Ponder the inclinations mentioned above and the possibility that the very heart of each individual has ever been, and will ever be, and that God has simply, yet beautifully given each one the chance to act in his or her own sphere of potential.

Horseman42

04-18-03, 09:14 PM

athought,

He has placed life and death before his children, and it is for them to choose. If they choose life, they receive the blessing of life; if they choose death, they must abide the penalty.

Who would really choose death if they had the choice? If you say we will be sent to hell for not following Gods commands, then it's not really free.

It's like someone who has a gun to our heads saying "obey my laws or else". What kind of free will is this?

What if the essence of each being has existed from eternity, just as God has existed from eternity?

I might be able to buy this to some degree, afterall aparently our souls live forever according to what I've been taught to believe.

athought

04-18-03, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by Horseman42
athought,

1.
Who would really choose death if they had the choice? If you say we will be sent to hell for not following Gods commands, then it's not really free.

It's like someone who has a gun to our heads saying "obey my laws or else". What kind of free will is this?

2.
I might be able to buy this to some degree, afterall aparently our souls live forever according to what I've been taught to believe.

1: "A parent may [discipline] a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have eaten it with a better appetite; there would have been no [punishment]; all the pleasure of the apple would have been secured, all the misery of stealing lost. This principle will justly apply to all of God's dealings with His children. Everything that God gives us is lawful and right; and it is proper that we should enjoy His gifts and blessings whenever and wherever He is disposed to bestow; but if we should seize upon those same blessings and enjoyments without law, without revelation, without commandment, those blessings and enjoyments would prove cursings and vexations in the end, and we should have to lie down in sorrow and wailings of everlasting regret. But in obedience there is joy and peace unspotted, unalloyed; and as God has designed our happiness—and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has—He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law"
(TPJS, p. 255-6).

Although God created us as we are now, giving us the ability to act as we choose, yet, as every action and reaction in nature is governed by law, so every choice we make has a set and definite consequence. If one assumes the consequence to be arbitrarily decided, it seems unfair. If one assumes however that the consequence is eternal as any other law of nature, it seems that God is kind to share his wisdom with us. Thus he says, "Obey the eternal laws which I know, or else the effect of these laws will be your punishment". God wants us to progress and obtain every blessing that he has, but we can only get there if we learn what he has learned. Some will choose never to learn. In this sense they are dammed because they cannot progress, progress being the result of following correct knowledge.

Also, the death spoken of is a figure, a symbol of choices that lead the unwitting to unhappiness and separation from God. No one chooses that end purposefully; we simply deceive ourselves or allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking that we know, or can find by trial and error, where the greatest good for us lies. Parents often find that certain children seem by their very nature more rebellious than others, and do not wish to listen to wise counsel. They think their parents foolish. We've all done it. Some continue to make foolish choices their whole lives, others will listen, others weave back and forth. There are all grades of people and everyone will receive in accordance with their performance, and their desires. Hell is a state of being (fire and brimstone being the symbols of it).

2: Let me know if you have any more thoughts on the eternal nature of the individual. Believing this truth is the only rational way I have seen to escape determinism.

3: I also liked what you said a while back, it's so true:
We all want to explore what God is. It's in our nature.

Thanks for being polite in your response as well. Most of us have a tendency not to be. One more thing to learn... :)

Anyway, though I've stumbled onto this forum (I was just doing a google on mitosis), I like it. I'll be back another day. Probably after Easter. I'm also working full-time and taking classes at night, so understandably I don't always make as much time for diversion as I would like to. Please be patient for my responses. Have a good weekend!

TheVisitor

04-19-03, 12:10 AM

Surely you can form some opinion?
==========
No, when it comes to the scripture I dont "form" opinions.....
What I say I know.

Please stop talking in metaphors
==========
Thats how the Word is written.....if it's still just metaphors to you, I can't reveal it to you.
I can lead you to the door.....but you have to go in.

I'm not sure what Bible (The King James version)
===================
or Religion ............, I wasn't saying you've never heard of the king James bible......I was saying you've never heard this message, and that it's not a religion.

SnakeLord

04-19-03, 01:03 AM

Yeah sorry were a little off topic here. Love your comments their priceless!

Well i retract my statement anyway. I just put it there to prove i have free will :D

1: "A parent may whip a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have eaten it with a better appetite;

Anyone ever hits, whips, kicks, slaps, etc a child near me i'll punch his lights out. There is no justification in hitting something a tenth of your size because he took an apple without asking. That's what we call 'making a mountain out of a molehill' <--- Same as the Noah story :D I sit down and explain things to my child. Not once have i ever even raised my voice and anyone who has ever even considered raising their hands to children should burn for eternity in the pits of hell. Think the child actually learns anything valuable by being smacked? Or is it just a persons need to feel superior that makes them beat their children? It should be:

1: "A parent may talk to their child. If they do so the child wont steal the apple and thus the parent and child both have better appetites."

promote that happiness which He has designed

Smacking a child gives happiness? To who? Don't tell me it's important to teach them yada yada yada. My daughter never misbehaves, never shouts, never steals, never does anything bad and all i've ever done is talk to her as a loving father. God's an idiot and so are you if you think there's any justification in your above statement. If that's how god 'deals with his children' i say fuck him.

Also, the death spoken of is a figure, a symbol of choices that lead the unwitting to unhappiness and separation from God. No one chooses that end purposefully; we simply deceive ourselves or allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking that we know, or can find by trial and error, where the greatest good for us lies. Parents often find that certain children seem by their very nature more rebellious than others, and do not wish to listen to wise counsel. They think their parents foolish. We've all done it. Some continue to make foolish choices their whole lives, others will listen, others weave back and forth. There are all grades of people and everyone will receive in accordance with their performance, and their desires. Hell is a state of being (fire and brimstone being the symbols of it).

So instead of allowing a person to think for themselves and find their own answers we must just accept your version of what/who god is? People do that with their kids ffs. Stamp them the minute they're born: Circumcision, baptism, barmitzvah- it's like cow stamping: "You are now the exclusive property of god". If god is the truth why not just let a kid find it for themselves instead of having to force it upon them and whipping them if they so much as disagree. If we deceive ourselves or are foolish god should be big enough to help out. Unless of course he wants his children to burn for eternity, (fire and brimstone)? Sounds like your typical modern day parent.

Surely you can form some opinion?

==========

No, when it comes to the scripture I dont "form" opinions.....
What I say I know.

Please stop talking in metaphors

==========

Thats how the Word is written.....if it's still just metaphors to you, I can't reveal it to you.

I can lead you to the door.....but you have to go in.

Self righteous asshole.

athought

04-19-03, 11:38 AM

SnakeLord:
:confused:
I failed to give the complete context of that quote, and for that I apoligize. It was written in the 1800s when lickings were commonly accepted as just punishment for even minor infractions. You may change the analogy to fit more with our times and ways as seems fit. I wouldn't whip my child either. My mother raised me without "whuppings" or beatings of any sort and I grew up just fine.

Now, go back and read what I wrote in that perspective please. Again, my apologies for lack of context. Please ask for clarification next time if something bothers you.

SnakeLord

04-19-03, 12:35 PM

Well it still remains a pertinent point. It comes down to a 'do as i say or get an eternal smack in the head'. Same thing, larger scale.

But in obedience there is joy and peace unspotted, unalloyed; and as God has designed our happiness—and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has—He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law

Obedience is a hell of a word to use. What is there to obey?? The writings of an old shepherd? Where is the proof that any of those words stemmed from a mighty creator? The answer to that question= nowhere. As humans you should understand our need for facts as should god. You can't just expect everyone to 'obey or die' when the only thing you have is a book written for a different social system several millennia ago.

The same principle applies with your whipping children quote. At that time it may very well have seemed the 'right thing to do' when concerning children. Look back several years to when people thought black folk existed to be slaves. Times change, society changes and the structure by which mankind lives also changes.

In those times there was no police force, but a 'law' was written by men. In those times it was extremely important and worthwhile but nowadays do we really need a life lived through fear? Of course... this 'run by fear' factor is a part of human nature: Pay your mortgage or lose your house, pay your bills or we switch off your electricity. I can understand the fear factor with companies and people who stand to lose out but what does god have to lose?

The openly threatening manner with which religion subscribes is outdated and is the act of fools with no understanding of society. Nowhere is there any decent answer to why god isn't just upfront and straightforward. He has felt the need through all of human time to be as elusive as possible. He sends people to talk for him, talks through bushes, talks in your head. He expects that we must all want to find him but leaves no contact address. You can accept the word of ancient people as proof, many can't. As i've said before countless times i don't see how you can just pick and choose. There's ancient scriptures talking of alien visitors, ancient scriptures talking of many gods other than your own. How do you know what the truth is? The fact is, you don't. Whatever works best for you is nice and i hope you're happy but if you ask someone to just obey a possible fantasy figure you're asking a bit too much of those who expect more from their own mortal lives.

Horseman42

04-19-03, 01:28 PM

TheVisitor,

No, when it comes to the scripture I dont "form" opinions.....

Right so reading between the lines is alright. If I thought to "she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (the fruit being the soap) meant to go and have a bath would I be any more right than you?

Thats how the Word is written.....if it's still just metaphors to you, I can't reveal it to you.
I can lead you to the door.....but you have to go in.

So you can't really explain anything? The point is I don't mind the metaphors but please explain them too me. I wouldn't want to do something like read between the lines, because than I'm just making shit up.

Horseman42

04-19-03, 01:40 PM

athought,

1: "A parent may whip a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have eaten it with a better appetite;

All Christians I've spoke to always use this example to explain divine justice. Honestly you should put it in the proper perspective. If God is the parent and we steal an apple we are not just given a "whipping" (which as SnakeLord has pointed is unfair in itself), but sent to hell for all eternity to be torchered.

Where is the love here? How is that fair for the child? How can the child "learn" from the mistake? This is what I'm arguing.

Hell is a state of being (fire and brimstone being the symbols of it).

This is exactly what the Bible teaches, but I can perhaps go along with this notion. Why do you think Hell is only a state of being?

2: Let me know if you have any more thoughts on the eternal nature of the individual. Believing this truth is the only rational way I have seen to escape determinism.

Can you please explain determinism. It's been over 5 years since I studied philosophy.Hell is a state of being (fire and brimstone being the symbols of it).

SnakeLord

04-19-03, 09:52 PM

Why argue? We're going to burn in hell while Visitor with all his glory and wisdom is going to heaven to meet up with big daddy.

Here is Gods/Jesus words on what to do if you're a sinner, (many people dispute the statement that we'll burn in hell. They argue its not mentioned anywhere in the bible but is in fact made up by athiests)

Mark 9:42

"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of god with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell..."

If there is a god he sounds like more of an asshole than the snake. He sure dont sound like much of a father. He wants perfect children but fucked up when creating them. If anyone's to blame for the mistakes it's him.

Good day.

Michael

04-21-03, 02:26 AM

I still do not see a logical rebuttal argument that disputes the claim that if there is an all knowing god then we do not have free will. This implies that if you believe in an all knowing god (and there may be one) then we do not have free will. Pulling the conversation into tangents about different races of this and that or the ever expanding universe as interpreted from some sorted Quranic writing or Biblical mumble-jumble has nothing to do with the logical argument presented. Wishing to refute the initial premise won’t work either. I didn’t intend for a debate on personal debates and beleifes.

I thought he argument was a priori and therefore should be answered as such in turn.

My conclusion is that the argument this person has put forth is true then and if there is an all knowing god then we do not have free will.

My personal belief is atheist agnostic. God is unknowable and I don’t believe in one. A person can also be theistic agnostic. Neither of these last two statements has anything to do with the initial argument.

So unless someone has a logical rebuttal then lets end this topic here.

Thanks for the few intellengent and insightful comments
MII

MShark

04-21-03, 08:12 AM

Michael:

Defining the power or knowledge of God seems to me rediculus from both thiest and atheistic perspectives.

For me free will is one of the major indications that there is more to me than what can be explained by human understanding of existance.

I do not see how a person can belive in "free will" and be an athiest. If there is anyone who has a belief system that encompasses both free will and athiesim I would be interested in hearing about it.

anakngdiyos

04-21-03, 06:07 PM

Michael,

Originally posted by Michael
I still do not see a logical rebuttal argument that disputes the claim that if there is an all knowing god then we do not have free will. This implies that if you believe in an all knowing god (and there may be one) then we do not have free will. MII

From what I have read I do have an idea of how to see an all knowing god and people who still have free will.
If you take the hypothesis that God is there and is all knowing and all powerful than you could think of it as analagous to a movie and God is the only one to have seen the film.
If you think about it this way then you think about how when you watch a film or read a book there are a lot of different options and paths that characters could take through-out the movie or book but in the end they choose the paths that they do for whatever reasons that they do.
Now someone could take this analogy and say that the paths that the characters take are directed by the script-writers but this would not be considering the characters as true people but simply actors, further if you took this analogy and put it into an improvisation show, where there is no script, than it is completely up to the person how they will react and only an individual (in this case the individual would be analagous to God) who had seen the show before anyone else would know how those people would react.
The reason that people who believe in God can believe in free will is because if one truly believes that God is all powerful and all knowing than they believe that he truly is the beginning and the end and has the ability to have already seen what will happen and what choices we will make.
Therefore, the prerequisite to a true belief that God could know everything and yet we still have free will would be a belief that an all-knowing and all-powerful God could exist.
I hope my analogy makes sense to you and helps with your search for a logical rebuttal.

athought

04-22-03, 07:42 AM

Good thoughts people :)

Here's another:

Free will can be defined as the ability to do what you want to do, what you desire. As I said before, if we were not created from nothing, but organized into beings that could act on their eternally existent inclinations, then what we want to do is not forced upon us at all.

God knowing everything, knows what YOU want to do; like a father who knows his child, but in a much more full and perfect sense.

Knowing what you want, he knows how you will want to react in every situation, and he places us all in an environment where we can prove what we really desire, not so much to show him but to show ourselves. It wouldn't seem fair if God simply said from the moment that he organized us into beings that could act upon their desires that, "You deserve this reward, and you deserve that one." Not only that, but we would have been robbed of the chance to learn from experience and would not be what we would otherwise become. We would all be idiots without knowledge. Bit by bit we learn and progress, "and if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."

MooseKnuckle

04-22-03, 02:32 PM

Ive posted this arguement in another thread, but this thread is of course more appropriate for the subject matter- free will.

Everyone is a victim not of genes, but of genes and enviornment together; knobs and turnings. Of course, you can argue with the preposition that all we are is knobs and turnings, genes and enviornment. You can insist that there's something......something more. But if you try to visualze the form this something would take, or articulate it clearly, you'll find the task impossible, for any force that in not in the genes or the enviornment is outside of physical reality as we perceive it.

Darwin sheads some light on this topic...... Darwin saw how these forces have their combined effect: by determining a person's physical "organization" which in turn determines thought and feeling and behavior. Darwin makes a point that even today goes ungrasped: ALL influences on human behavior, enviornmental as well as hereditary, are mediated biologically. Whatever combination of things has given your brain the exact physical organization it has at this moment( including your genes, your early enviornment, and your assimilation of the first half of this sentence), that physical organization is what determines how you will respond to the second half of this sentence.

As for why , if all behavior is determined, we "feel" as if we're making free choices, Darwin had a modern explanation....: our concious mind isnt privy to all the motivating forces. "The general delusion about free will is obvious- because man has power of action, and he can seldom analyze his motives (originally mostly INSTINCTIVE, and therefore now great effort of reason to discover them: this is important explanation) he thinks they have none."

Some of our motives are hidden from us not incidentally but by design, so that we can credibly act as if they aren't what they are; that, more generally, the "delusion about free will" may be an adaption. Still he got the basic idea: free will is an illusion, brought to us by evolution. All the things commonly blamed or praised for- are the result not of choices made by some immaterial "I" but of physical necessity.

A response to dehumanizing human behavior is what Darwin thought- complete surrender. Give up on free will; no one really deserves blame or credit for anything; we are all slaves of biology. "we must view a wicked man, like a sickly one, it would be more proper to pity than to hate and be disgusted." The hatred and revulsion that send people to jail- and in other contexts lead to arguements, fights, and wars- are without intellectual foundation. Of course they may have a PRACTICAL foundation. Indeed thats the problem: blame and punishment are as practically necessary as they are intellectually vacuous.

So the funny thing is that us "scientifically minded" people are more understanding and thus compassionate to others due to understanding the extends to which they acted. Theists will many times want to look down upon people as if they were somehow removed from the influences that make humans...... humans. Truth is; we are all of a robotic nature and by understanding this concept we can progress instead of blaming people for acts that were ultimately out of their control. This doesnt mean that punishment isnt a good deterant, because it is necessary to hold society together.

MooseKnuckle

04-22-03, 02:36 PM

Here is my own way to make this "shorter and sweeter"

No one is responsible for their brain makeup when they were first born. So one's first actions are the result of their brain dictating one's responses to environmental stimuli. The enviornmental information is taken in and the brain will make some new connections in its neural makeup as a result..... the next behavior is the result of the new combination of biological and enviornmental influences. So if we start with something no one had a say in (one's genetic composition) then how are responsible for actions that result of "choices" made by your brain. We are never truly in control to the extend we want to think. We have begun to experience a spiral of actions that are a result of choices made when we had no control.

MShark

04-22-03, 03:33 PM

MooseKnuckle

That is an interesting statement. Do you think that is a belief that builds a good foundation for an individuals life? Would it be good if everyone believed that way?

Athought:

What makes you think that you know God well enough to say what she can do and what she chooses not to do? And why is it important?

MooseKnuckle

04-22-03, 05:11 PM

MShark-

That is an interesting statement. Do you think that is a belief that builds a good foundation for an individuals life? Would it be good if everyone believed that way?

No, the illusion of free will is important for some people. The concept of free will makes life more poetic. It allows people to live life thinking that everything is in their ultimate control. It does not benefit one to acknowledge the illusion of free will, it does however give one a better understanding of human behavior. In the quest for knowledge there will be some times when one has to face the hard truth regarding strongly held beliefs, but if one is truly on the quest, they will understand that reality can be hard and cold and they can come to the conclusion that want has no bearing on is.

Really....we dont have any free will. I dont see big deal with this personally. But I can understand the resilience to combat this notion.

Many religious people will start with the idea that we have free will and they mold the arguement to fit that outcome. See this is the wrong way to go about finding the truth. You should not have the answer to start with, and then go on to mold the facts to fit it. This is misguided and will lead to the prescence of many holes. You should start out objectively and work to make the pieces fit where they may. This is the path to the truth, to be emotionally devoid on the topic at hand and come to a conclusion that fits logically.

MShark

04-22-03, 11:02 PM

MooseKnuckle

Nice Post. I guess I am one of those who start with the idea that we have free will. We all have to start by beliveing in somthing.

Free Will is one of those sticky wickets. It just seems so obvious from the inside but it does kind of fly in the face of logic and the scientific view of the world.

I'll stick with my perspective and if you turn out to be correct well then I guess I really never had a choice to think differently anyway.

wesmorris

04-22-03, 11:08 PM

How did you react to this sentence? Did you scrutinize it? Did you have to? Can you stop if you want to? I say the illusion of free will is as good as the real thing until evidence to change that assumption is discovered. I'd further say that there IS free will at least to a nominal extent. If I choose to join the army, that is an act of free will as far as I can tell. If it's as far as I can tell, I should continue to question everything related to the issue and put an "answer pending" message there for myself when I get back to the issue. :D

MooseKnuckle

04-23-03, 12:07 AM

MShark-

I'll stick with my perspective and if you turn out to be correct well then I guess I really never had a choice to think differently anyway.

Exactly.

Its good that you can see my point and be as objective as possible regarding such an emotional subject.

I dont see my position as being terribly threatening to theists (they might though). It does not rule out a supreme being in any shape or form. It is just a scientifically minded way to look at human behavior. I do feel that to acknowledge free will as an illusion is to acheive a greater compassion for humans.

In the grand scheme of things, everyone is a victim of circumstance. :m:

TheVisitor

04-23-03, 02:43 AM

AThought,
How were we created?
======
That was wonderfull, a really good collection of teachings.
There have been many men through out the ages that have been inspired and moved of God....
Luther, Wesley, Branham, ......Finney, Calvin, Moody, Knox.....

"Not so much to show him but to show ourselves."
=========
Sweet....!
exactly right......."who can know the heart of man, for it is desperatly wicked"....
The Word is a diserner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Son of Man....

On our journey, as you said..."and he places us all in an environment where we can prove what we really desire,"

Sometimes we are not even aware of the desires that are buried so deep with within us that are wrong, He lets us see them by the situations he leds us to, so we can see the depths of our own heart, the desires therein, and purge the wrong out of it, until we can reflect God in us.......incoruptable character.....back to God.
They that are led by the Spirit of God they shall be called the sons of God.

"Bit by bit we learn and progress, "
---------
precept by precept, line upon line.....

TheVisitor

04-23-03, 03:33 AM

Horseman42
1) What are you saying by this is Jesus getting married? Please stop talking in metaphors just put it in plain English and then quote the Bible if you need to.

2) So what's the deal with the flood are we are pure now or what? I mean that was God's intent right to start anew.

=========

Sorry to take so long....I got sidetracked onto another thread for awhile.

1) Jesus is getting married, yes.
He has been colecting his "Bride" from the gentiles for nearly 2000 years from every generation since the Holy Spirit was given.
It is also refered to as the "body of christ"
Just as in a marriage, the two become one.....
And from the union of this "christ is formed in you" the hope of glory, for when He appears, we shall be like Him.
He was the Son of God, and the firstborn of many brethren..
The beginning of the creation of God.

Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 - And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Romans 7:4 - Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

1 Corinthians 10:16 - The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12:27 - Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ephesians 4:12 - For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the [B]body of Christ: [b]

2) God's intent to start anew....?
The flood was the result of Man's chosing the tree of Good and Evil over the tree of life.
Satan is the God of this evil age, and this is Satan' Eden today...
God had a plan, to express His attributes, and it is going just as planed, Satan is only a tool in the hand of God....
Man will destroy himself by turning away from God's provided way.
That has always been His Word, thats wher he put his name,
Jesus Christ...yes we start anew in Him......

The world has three stages to it.....
The world before the flood....destoyed by water.
The world after the flood...Jesus bled His blood on it.
The world as it is now will be burned with fire...

Life has three stages...first when a baby's born, there's...
Water - breaks
Blood - being born, and
Spirit - Slap him on the behind and he breathes.

God brings us into His kingdom the same way..
Justification......washed by the water of the Word.
Sanctification....cleansed by His blood
Baptism of the Holy host.......and filled with "His" Spirit.

wesmorris

04-23-03, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
In the grand scheme of things, everyone is a victim of circumstance. :m:

Oh MAN, you idealog. VICTIM? I'm no victim. I chose my circumstance, I didn't have to into the army. No one made me go to college. Nobody made me stick my dick in my girlfriend. Sheez. Victim? If this is your attitude, you're just a victim of yourself bro.

MooseKnuckle

04-23-03, 05:58 PM

WesMorris-

Oh MAN, you idealog. VICTIM? I'm no victim. I chose my circumstance, I didn't have to into the army. No one made me go to college. Nobody made me stick my dick in my girlfriend. Sheez. Victim? If this is your attitude, you're just a victim of yourself bro.

Nothing to get worked up about. Yes I agree that you made your choices. I do think you might have interpreted my statements in a different way than I intended.

I am, however saying that people dont have as much a choice as they think they do regarding a potential action. Past influences(genetic and enviornmental) mold you into the person you are today, there is no escaping those factors.

When I said victim, I meant everyone is the effect of genes and enviornment. In that sense you are a viticm of circumstance. You can make your own choices but those choices are contingent on previous circumstances.

DarkEyedBeauty

04-23-03, 06:48 PM

To begin with, knowledge cannot be wrong, read Descartes Meditations.

wesmorris

04-23-03, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
WesMorris-

Nothing to get worked up about.

Yeah you're right. Pardon if it seemed different.
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle

Yes I agree that you made your choices. I do think you might have interpreted my statements in a different way than I intended.

Probably.
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle

I am, however saying that people dont have as much a choice as they think they do regarding a potential action. Past influences(genetic and enviornmental) mold you into the person you are today, there is no escaping those factors.

I agree. Further, my observation is that people are creatures of habit. They think and act in a continually varying theme of a gazillion different habits. This is one of the most difficult aspects of "free will" since it seems that what do from habit is our choice... in a sense yes... but as you say.. not in the way one might think.
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle

When I said victim, I meant everyone is the effect of genes and enviornment. In that sense you are a viticm of circumstance. You can make your own choices but those choices are contingent on previous circumstances.

My bad, I can't stand "victims" so I get kind of annoyed with the word. I don't like that phrase in that context too much but I do get your meaning and think you're on the right track. :D

SnakeLord

04-23-03, 08:31 PM

Have any of you ever read Luke Rheinhart's 'The Dice Man'? Super book and one that anyone questioning free will should read :D

MooseKnuckle

04-23-03, 09:36 PM

Snakelord-

Tell us some about the dice man. What are some of its points?

MShark

04-23-03, 10:35 PM

Is there any way that free will can exist within the bounds of our current understanding of natural laws?

James R

04-23-03, 11:08 PM

MShark:

<i>Is there any way that free will can exist within the bounds of our current understanding of natural laws?</i>

Depends what you require for will to be "free". What does "free" mean?

athought

04-24-03, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by MShark
Is there any way that free will can exist within the bounds of our current understanding of natural laws?

The following might help those of you who have not yet conceived a way that God can possibly see all time. It, combined with my earlier quotations and thoughts which lead up to it, should form a logical rebuttal when understood as a whole. It begins with ideas expressed by the prophets as revelation from God, and continues with an explanation of how such prophetic utterances about the nature of God are finally finding ground in what men of science are now discovering:

Several scriptures suggest that the way men perceive time upon the earth may not be the way time really is throughout the universe. These suggestions include the idea that all things are present before the Lord and a similar concept, namely that past, present, and future are continually before the Lord.

Only in the twentieth century has the field of physics begun to speak about time and space in a way that corresponds to these revelatory statements. Albert Einstein, in the early part of this century, developed what is known as the theory of relativity. Einstein postulated that what men had assumed were absolutes in the physical world - space, gravity, speed, motion, time - were not absolutes at all but were interrelated with each other. That is why the theory was called the theory of relativity. Physicists now agree that a person’s time reference will vary depending on his relative position in space.

Einstein also showed that if a body moves at very fast speeds (those approaching the speed of light, or 186,000 miles per second), that body’s time slows down in relation to the time of a body that is on earth; and for the body in motion, space contracts or shrinks. In other words, time and space are not two separate things but are interrelated. Physicists refer to this phenomenon as the space-time continuum. If an astronaut were to journey out into space at speeds approaching the speed of light, though to himself all would seem perfectly normal, to someone on earth it would appear as though his clock were ticking slower, his heart were beating slower, his metabolism operating slower, and so on. He would actually age more slowly than would a person who remained on the earth. Though the finite mind tends to reject such concepts, Einstein’s theory suggests that men are victims of their own limited perceptions. Reality to man is a product of his relative position in the space-time continuum. According to this theory, if a being achieved the speed of light, to that being all space would contract to the point that it would be "here" for him, and all time would slow down until it became "now" for him. Descriptions of God use terms related to light to describe his nature. He is a being of light and glory. The theory of relativity suggests that for a being of light, all space and all time would be present! As incredible as such a concept is, increasingly sophisticated experiments continue to substantiate Einstein’s theoretical description of the realities of the universe.

Dr. Lael Woodbury, dean of the College of Fine Arts and Communications at Brigham Young University, talked about man’s perception of time and God’s perception of time in the following address:

"The evidence suggests that God perceives time as we perceive space. That’s why ‘all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things’. Time, like space, is ‘continually before the Lord.’

"Right now we perceive music in time as a blind man perceives form in space - sequentially. He explores with his fingers, noting form, texture, contours, rhythms. He holds each perception in his mind, one by one, carefully adding one to the other, until he synthesizes his concept of what that space object must be like. You and I don’t do that. We perceive a space object immediately. We simply look at it, and to a certain degree we ‘know’ it. We do [not] go through a one-by-one, sequential, additive process. We perceive that it is, and we are able to distinguish it from any other object.

"I’m suggesting that God perceives time as instantaneously as we perceive space. For us, time is difficult. Lacking higher facility, we are as blind about time as a sightless man is about space. We perceive time in the same way that we perceive music - sequentially. We explore rhythm, pitch, amplitude, texture, theme, harmonies, parallels, and contrasts. And from our perceptions we synthesize our concept of the object or event - the musical artwork - that existed in its entirety before we began our examination of it.

"Equally complete now is each of our lives before the Lord. We explore them sequentially because we are time-blind. But the Lord, perceiving time as space, see us as we are, not as we are becoming. We are, for him, beings without time. We are continually before him - the totality of our psyches, personalities, bodies, choices, and behaviors.

Einstein’s theory is only a theory, although it is being substantiated again and again as a valid representation of reality. How God operates through the vastness of space and the eternity of time has not been revealed in specific detail, but what information man has been given harmonizes with what physicists are discovering about the interrelationship of space and time. While it cannot be definitely stated how God operates, modern physics suggests that since he is indeed a being of light, then past, present and future are continually before him.

(DaCSM, p.322)

:D

MShark

04-24-03, 08:16 AM

James R

I would say that Free Will is: the ability to take an action that even if all variables were known that action could not be predicted.

heflores

04-24-03, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by MShark
James R

I would say that Free Will is: the ability to take an action that even if all variables were known that action could not be predicted.

All actions are accurately predictable though. A probability could be formulated to predict the probability and confidence level that a specific action will be made.

In Freshman year, I wrote a small program with random number generator to predict if a drunk man left midway will make it to the house or the pub. You model every step.

Charles Fleming

04-24-03, 08:55 PM

What happened to my post?!! I posted something, it was quite long too, and it's not here! :( :mad:

TheVisitor

04-25-03, 03:07 AM

athought said:
Descriptions of God use terms related to light to describe his nature. He is a being of light and glory. The theory of relativity suggests that for a being of light, all space and all time would be present!

======================

I believe in our celestial bodies, or theopanies we "know" all things.

The following is from a taped sermon of William Branham, a prophet of God,
recorded on Feb, 21 1965...and titled:

WHO IS THIS MELCHISEDEC

Now, the different between Him and you as a son... See, He was at the beginning the Word, an "En morphe" body. He came in and lived in that in the Person of Melchisedec. Then later... We never heard no more of Melchisedec, because He became Jesus Christ. Melchisedec was the Priest, but He became Jesus Christ. Now, you bypassed that, because in that form He knowed all things. And you have never been able to know that yet. You come like Adam, like me. You became from the attribute to the flesh to be tempted. But when this life is finished here... "If this earthly tabernacle be dissolved, we have one already waiting." That's where we go; that is the Word. Then we can look back and see what we done. Now, we don't understand it. We have never become the Word; we've just become the flesh-man, not the Word. But you see, in order to stand temptation you had to bypass the theophany; you had to come down here in flesh to be tempted by sin.

Before the foundation of the world his Name's put on the Lamb's Book of Life. Then from that He become the Word, the theophany, that could appear, disappear; and then He become flesh and returned back again, resurrected that same body in a glorified condition. But you bypassed the theophany and become flesh-man to be tempted by sin. And then "if this earthly tabernacle is dissolved, we have one already waiting." We have not yet the bodies. But look, when this body receives the Spirit of God, the Immortal Life inside of you, it throws this body in subjection to God. Hallelujah."

The rest of this recording is available here.....
http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=1087