I constantly hear "Sweden is doing better than the US, Ireland is doing better" so on and so forth.

Oh come on...really, who believes that tripe?

If it were not for the US, Europe would be flying the Red flag with the Hammer and Sickle.

The fact they are doing economically better than us, is the same difference as Delaware doing economically better for its Citizens than Alabama. The fact is, without the Union, Delaware and Alabama would have long ago been conquered by foreign powers.

Without the US, the world would be under Soviet control. And the Soviet Union would be full-time employed in ensuring its Empire did not fall apart. Without anything but partisans to counter them.

Certainly not a containment strategy that the US employed upon them, even against Europeans' wishes (because they wanted to open a new market and make money, which they eventually got in the collapse of the Soviet Union).

Anyway, I'm just saying, the World's success is the United State's success, without us, Asia would be ruled by Japan, Europe by Russia, and whoever got the bomb first (which would have been Russia) would have certainly made mince-meat out of the other.

technically, yes.
* economic resilience of the entire planet means cheaper goods for US citizens.
* political stability and human rights means less US expenditures in money, lives, and PR to stabilize things

but it's never that simple, is it.

by your reasoning free mason, then we could go all the way back to the greeks and argue any success in the US is due to the greeks. or we could just keep going back further or searching through history until we can justify our own arrogance (as you demonstrate) and self righteousness.

I constantly hear "Sweden is doing better than the US, Ireland is doing better" so on and so forth.

If it were not for the US, Europe would be flying the Red flag with the Hammer and Sickle.

The two cannot be used in comparison as someone else mentioned because other countries have just as much success in helping America be what it is too. Sure we may have helped out Europe in WWII, but that doesn't change the fact that they themselves are making them out to be who they are today. What is so wrong with one of them being better than us in various aspects? Nobody can hold the best title in everything and there's no sense in crying about it when another country does have the best title in something instead of us.

I disagree about the "ignorant American" sterotype, but I fully agree with the "arrogant American" one.

- N

The world doesn't need the US, we can subsist without it. The current world order would be dramatically changed, but since the US economic decline is happening as we speak US corporations are setting up shop in China, their HQ in the Caribbean to avoid American taxes, putting the burden on the American middle class (which is disappearing), and with the American economy not having the tariffs that made her what she was, in a free trade world America doesn’t stand up to the 3rd world, and the 3rd world can hardly stand up to China. I wrote about the decline of the US in my essay about the conflict btwn Capitalism and Democracy here is the excerpt:

The US is essentially being the engine of Globalization buy consuming in excess of 7 trillion worth of goods but not being able to pay for those goods, thus she has to borrow money. Argentina did the same thing throughout the 1990’s, once showcased as the quintessential success of the neo-liberal agenda in Latin America. The country’s economy imploded after the 1997 Asian financial crisis. What followed was a political instability not seen since 1982-83. The country rejected the neo-liberalist Menem for Keynesian Kirchner. The US should experience something along those lines, but I fear she will not. America is a nation that is dominated by ideals, not reality. America instead shifting leftward as most other nations do in economic malaise is instead shifting to the right. This is not without precedent. In Germany the post WWI experience was one of shame, poverty, and political ineptness. The proportional representation system made the Reichstag fragmented and ineffectual. The elections after the collapse of the international economy in 1929 showed a nation split in the middle, between the socialist camp and the fascist Nazi camp. It was close but the Nazi’s won. Democracy had undermined capitalism( even should the socialist have won capitalism was the big loser). Like in the United States Hitler consolidated his power after the Reichstag terrorist attack (alas 9/11), and constrained civil liberties, and had changed the dynamic of politics. The politics of scapegoating, and extreme marginalization of the left and minorities, the era of good vs. evil dynamic which worked so well with Germany works well with America as well.

Essentially I deal with your subject and presumptions FreeMason…and consequently destroy it…actually if anything the current account deficit shows how much the US needs the Rest of the world more then visa versa...I just have to add more to this topic. What is meant by the United States? The people or the companies? Because what benefits one doesn’t necessarily benefit the other. Is the world's success, America's success? That title unto itself is not very intelligent to say the least taking into consideration the rise of China which in the end of the day is anything but good for the US (meaning the population especially the middle class). The Globalization that America has fought for is slowing eating away at the core of American manufacturing, reading Adam Smith it becomes obvious the US is become a leach to the world, what a difference from post-WWI, or WWII. America is the world’s biggest free loader, and eventually the funds are going to dry up, and America is in for a rude shock. By that time China would be the world’s largest economy, and should have leached off the fortunes of the US.

Undecided, it is you who is full of presumptions. Amazingly you discount the fact that it was the US that rebuilt the entire European economy. Perhaps you heard of a little thing called "investments".

But a yield has been gained on our investment in Europe, and we can easily offset any debt we incure with that capital gains. Europe knows this, no nation would dare attempt to "seriously" call us on our debts.

The only real debt exists between Developed and Developing nations, and even those are mostly bought-out (other developed nations buy other developing nations' debts giving the original creditor their money back and buying a new potential source of income).

Your understanding of the corporate situation in the US is also vaccuous. The US is "importing" as many businesses as it is out-sourcing, and whether or not a business pays a share of its profits to the Federal Government is moot, the Feds can find other sources of income more effective.

The idea that the middle class is burdend is also "stupid". It is the fact that most of the middle class can not help but use credit cards and over-spend, that burdens them.

Anyway, someone else said my argument means we should owe everything to Greece, that's a load of rubbish. The Greeks of old are no more, just as the Romans. And the Britts for that matter (one of the nations we bailed-out). The Greeks today don't even speak the same language. The Romans today are non-existent (intermarried with more numerous Itallic peoples which have thus erased most traces of Roman identity, culture and thus existence).

America is the sole nation that helped the entire World's economy after WW2, and it is still existing as it was then. Therefore, the World should owe us something, recognition for that act is enough. They need not pay tribute. Just need to recongnize that we did something good for them.

This is fun. I say Finland is the best.
We did kick Stalin ass big time with some Nazi-guns and molotov-cocktails, for every Finn there was ten bolshevik, they got tanks, airfighters and artillery, we got nothing. Only help came from Hitler, some guns and food, then we did kick them out of here too.
We do have one of the best education systems too, free for every one, even for you !
We have democracy, freedom of speach and religion.
We have electricity and clean water for every household.
We have welfare. We are active in peace-keeping and AIDing for poor countries.
We do have good relationships with all countries in the world.
We have world champions in Formula-1, Rally, Alpine ski, Skijump, Ski, Swimming, Ice-hockey, Shotput, Javelin, Billiards, Snowboarding and Freestyle for starters.
We are frikin awesome !
What we dont have: Population, just over 5 million. National resources, oh wait, we do have wood. Farming climate, oh sorry, there is 4 months.
Go Finland go !!!
:D ;)

and not to forget mosquitos

Undecided, it is you who is full of presumptions. Amazingly you discount the fact that it was the US that rebuilt the entire European economy. Perhaps you heard of a little thing called "investments".

You seem to forget that it was British capital that made the US railway system a reality...so no you are the pretentious one. Why was the US the world's largest debtor prior to WWI, because the US depended on British capital to build the American economy. The US did help build the Western European economy post-WWII, but that was out of geo-political nessecity not altruism.

But a yield has been gained on our investment in Europe, and we can easily offset any debt we incure with that capital gains. Europe knows this, no nation would dare attempt to "seriously" call us on our debts.

Europe is the least of your worries, the largest US creditors are in Asia not Europe. China is the largest single holder of US debt in the world, as the Chinese economy grows in scope to be larger then that of the United States, the Chinese will indeed begin to call for her debts, secondly the problem with the US is that its not even calling back her debts that's the problem. The problem is that the US needs in excess of $2.5 billion a day from the rest of the world to pay for itself, once nations stop send money what will happen then? Something called...collapse.

The only real debt exists between Developed and Developing nations, and even those are mostly bought-out

To my knowledge the US holds $4 trillion worth of foreign debt...more then the entire developing world.

The US is "importing" as many businesses as it is out-sourcing,

The US FDI flows have consistently been in the negative, and recently China has been absorbing twice as much investment as the United States...try again.

the Feds can find other sources of income more effective.

Like? Increasing taxes on the average American to the point where their debt and tax eat all of their income?

The idea that the middle class is burdend is also "stupid". It is the fact that most of the middle class can not help but use credit cards and over-spend, that burdens them.

Then by definition by ur own admission the Middle Class is burdened...wow you are too intelligent... :rolleyes:

Anyway, someone else said my argument means we should owe everything to Greece, that's a load of rubbish.

This has to do with...?

America is the sole nation that helped the entire World's economy after WW2, and it is still existing as it was then.

Not the entire world, the Soviets did their part, sure the system they created did not work well but the USSR and Eastern Europe were able to develop independent of the USA. The entire world is also a stretch I didn't see the Marshall plan in Latin America...Africa...SE Asia...etc. So I don't buy that obviously false premise. The US helped rebuild Europe and Japan out of nessecity.

Therefore, the World should owe us something, recognition for that act is enough. They need not pay tribute. Just need to recongnize that we did something good for them

To my knowledge the world has done more then enough to pay you back...look at your debt load, look at your imports, look at your FDI inward stock...my advice is to stop acting like a little baby and stfu...we owe you nothing.

FREEMASON - "America is the sole nation that helped the entire World's economy after WW2, and it is still existing as it was then. Therefore, the World should owe us something, recognition for that act is enough. They need not pay tribute. Just need to recongnize that we did something good for them."

-I was somewhat USA "fan" in eighties, and now not so much, USA is using their mighty powers with a little twist...And all those immigrants who came to USA after WW2 did pay some of "our debts" I guess. ? . And its not like back then, USA werent king of the hill back then. Power = Responsibility. I´m not blaming USA for all the evil in the world, but USA do have its ladle in every soup, and not just for a good will.
We have a really messy situation right now and I doubt that current USA foreign policy is way how things should be to solved.

KUNAX - "and not to forget mosquitos"

-LOL, yeah, in summer at up north those can be a bitch :)

seventh beer going, I´m going to be wasted tonight ! :D !

So what your saying, Freemason, is that the biggest kid on the block is the one who is responsible for all the good things that happen?
Not quite.

Undecided, it is you who is full of presumptions. Amazingly you discount the fact that it was the US that rebuilt the entire European economy. Perhaps you heard of a little thing called "investments".
....
Mwuhahahahahaha!!! :D

Where would the US be without Japan and China......? :rolleyes:



Besides, you argument is a fallacy:
Denial of the antecedent (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#antecedent)
"This fallacy is an argument of the form "A implies B, A is false, therefore B is false." The truth table for implication makes it clear why this is a fallacy.

Note that this fallacy is different from Non Causa Pro Causa. That has the form "A implies B, A is false, therefore B is false", where A does not in fact imply B at all. Here, the problem isn't that the implication is invalid; rather it's that the falseness of A doesn't allow us to deduce anything about B.

"If the God of the Bible appeared to me, personally, that would certainly prove that Christianity was true. But God has never appeared to me, so the Bible must be a work of fiction."

This is the converse of the fallacy of Affirmation of the Consequent."


Basically, even if the US helps the european economy, doesn't mean that the european economy would be terrible if the US wouldn't have helped. Which I doubt actually happened. As far as I know, the US sold lots of guns in WWII and earned a lot of money on the back of Europe...... :rolleyes:

FreeMason, if you are going to spout history, try the real stuff, not the crap out of US Today or a fourth grade text book. We Brits (no we aren't Britts) paid for what we got from you in cash, territory, blood and the loss of an Empire.
I have great admiration for America, its ideals and many of its people. I despise the self delusional and self righteous attitudes that have become more prevalent, or merely more public of late. I look forward to a time when the US resumes a role as world leader by acclamation, not imposition. That will coincide with the rediscovery of selflessness and the cessation of whining of the type typified by the views implicit in your posts.

[QUOTE=FreeMason]
Anyway, someone else said my argument means we should owe everything to Greece, that's a load of rubbish. The Greeks of old are no more, just as the Romans. And the Britts for that matter (one of the nations we bailed-out). The Greeks today don't even speak the same language. The Romans today are non-existent (intermarried with more numerous Itallic peoples which have thus erased most traces of Roman identity, culture and thus existence).
QUOTE]

Your understanding of history is serously flawed. You argued that the world owns America because of WWII, but when the facts of ancient history is presented, you deemed it irrelevent.
History, like time, is continous. Every moment shows us experience invaluable for the future. By focusing one one era and ignoring all others, you are damned to repeat the mistakes of those who lived before. And your country, America, will soon join the lone line of the great western empires of the past.

I believe the US received some help during their little independence war from some European states. They even ended up with a nice statue symbolizing freedom in this way. It was amazing that the Americans didn't tear down the statue of liberty after they renamed the french fries, freedom fries. And where would the US be without their freedom fries today? They would be less fat. And then they claim that we never contributed to their succes!?!

But on a more serious note, there is no such thing as the world's succes. It is still a mess and at majority of the people on this globe are actually working and suffering for it to maintain America's inflated consumer society. And if a country disagrees with the US it can feel the wrath of the US military, or more subversive and under the blanket politics of meddling with the political direction of other sovereign states. Indeed, it seems the only freedom people outside the US have is to comply with America's wishes. Europe seems to be different in this respect. And do you think that the US appreciates a second opinion? No, the land of the free isn't really interested in the opinions of states that actually are more democratic and emancipated than their own. Finland has been mentioned before, and I can confirm both views that have been presented on this country.

And could the world's success have been possible without japan or hong kong? Do you still remember that every trinket had a label, made in hong kong, and every electronics product you bought had a label made in japan. I don't think I ever owned a product that was made in the US however. Makes you think doesn't it.

What I think that is going on here is that Americans are just to isolated to realize that there is a world out there. Hence they think that if their country is succesful (as being presented to them by their propaganda machinery) than they think that the world is succesfull.

end rant.

I agree the US has had quite an impact on world history in these last couple hundred years. But I think you're wrong to dismiss the contributions of other great nations. To a large extent one could consider the US "empire" a continuation of the British Empire since we got our form of government, language, and customs from England. Going further back, the ideas and concepts behind our form of government were first developed in Ancient greece. Even our language (indeed all "romance" languages) is based on latin and greek. One could argue that the US "empire" is, in some respects, a continuation of the Roman Empire. You know what that means: Toga party!

One could argue that the US "empire" is, in some respects, a continuation of the Roman Empire. You know what that means: Toga party!

Yes when the Roman Empire was at its decline, what the Roman Empire when it was its apex would not have been "American" in values, what collapsed the Roman Empire are those values which the modern American conservative so loves, Christianity, piety, belief, etc. The Roman Empire's is best to compared to the British empire, by spreading languages, ideas, and bringing millions together of diffferent races, creeds, religions, etc under a monarchy. America has not done these things, frankly America has only finished what the British empire started, and its hasn't done a great job at that.

I agree the US has had quite an impact on world history in these last couple hundred years. But I think you're wrong to dismiss the contributions of other great nations. To a large extent one could consider the US "empire" a continuation of the British Empire since we got our form of government, language, and customs from England. Going further back, the ideas and concepts behind our form of government were first developed in Ancient greece. Even our language (indeed all "romance" languages) is based on latin and greek. One could argue that the US "empire" is, in some respects, a continuation of the Roman Empire. You know what that means: Toga party!
While I reject that the US is an empire in a traditional sense and don't think that we share many of the negative moral stigmas of the old powers you listed... an interesting factoid is that US rail road tracks are the EXACT same width as the old roman cart ruts.

That is, the roman roads had ruts where the cart wheels rolled. The Romans built these roads in england and the roads were standardized throughout the empire. British trains adopted this width for some reason and the first American trains were of british design... ergo, our trains run on the exact same width as the roman carts..

Just an interesting factoid to bore people with :)

You like trains dont you... well i like roman carts....

lets go racing.

Just an interesting factoid to bore people with, the American railway system was financed with British capital. So again it was the British Empire that helped make America what it is today, not visa versa.

But the British Empire has been dead for a while, replaced by other institutions. Just like the France that helped us with the American Revolution and the Kaiser's Germany.

Many successes of the world are America's successes.

But the British Empire has been dead for a while, replaced by other institutions. Just like the France that helped us with the American Revolution and the Kaiser's Germany.

But the British Empire was the only thing in the modern world that came close to resembling the Roman Empire, America has not spread ideas, or language etc to the world the British did all that. America is merely holding onto the coattails of Britain’s legacies, everything from the railway to the very language we are speaking.

Many successes of the world are America's successes

Many of America’s successes are British in origin, there is no question that the United States has given the world many great things but the world’s success isn’t dependant on the United States anymore.

Yes, many of America's successes are British is origin... we were an English colony after all. We took the best parts of each of the countries that sent colonists or immagrents to the New World. Then we twisted them together into something very strong and vibrant. Note that every country is the making of whatever came before it.

Britain, and the rest of Europe, did spread culture and ideas with each colony they made and each trading port they visited. America spread itself to other continents in a different way. It made the other guys come to them by coming up with some idea that many would want and just waiting for others to pick it up. Only occasionally, like with Japan, did we batter down any doors.

And you are perhaps right. The US hasn't been coming out with the world shaking technological or social advances at the same rate we used to. We made micropropagation technologies, GM crops, the internet, and modern computers, but little since. I interpret this as the US simply taking a breather and not getting off thehorse altogether.

Then we twisted them together into something very strong and vibrant. Note that every country is the making of whatever came before it.

No question America has been lucky to get the best of the best from around the world to create the world’s most innovative society, and I will readily admit the US has created to a large degree our modern convinces, which is one of the reasons why I am not very happy with the way the US is leading itself to self-destructive tendencies. America still has a lot of potential, but it won’t have much if she continues this train of self-destructive policies.

America spread itself to other continents in a different way. It made the other guys come to them by coming up with some idea that many would want and just waiting for others to pick it up. Only occasionally, like with Japan, did we batter down any doors.

America didn’t spread it absorbed, that’s the difference btwn Britain and the United States. America on the world stage has not been able to recreate the Pax Britannia that spelled one hundred years of its rule, and America can’t even though she is trying.

Despite what others may think, we aren't trying to seize the world with guns of missles. We are seizing it by buying 51% of its stock. ;)

You were, now the world is buying you up you owe the world upwards of 35% of your economy, America cannot be a superpower in that situation because American doesn’t control the purse strings. Ni hao ma Zhongguo?

America's successes are it's own. We were just an investment to the british.

Furthermore, they paid for weapons from us in WWI and WWII by canceling debt and selling sharing in our own companies back to us.


We've been free of that influence ever since.

As usual the class retard ignores the entire conversation, well to be sure he did click "read post"....

America is the best country in the world if it wasn't for america we would all be nothing if america wanted they could kill all of us america is the most trustworthy country in the world and the best counrty in the world three cheers for america

hip hip

I farted...

thats the same thing that happened when america was created although a big bit of shit came out

Jolly Rodger, a personal question about your avatar... does it mean anything to you?

Just out of curiosity...
-------------------------------
As to your response, sarcasm isn't an argument. In fact, it's generally considered to be sign of a weak mind or the total lack of an argument.

Do you have a point? Or have you nothing to offer but vileness and hate?