It seems like the Old Testament of the Bible is so much more interesting than the Koran. Does anyone agree with this? Or not?

I enjoy Kahil Gibran much more.


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5484/Gibran.htm

It seems like the Old Testament of the Bible is so much more interesting than the Koran. Does anyone agree with this? Or not?

You probably read a translation. :)

Looks like another translation is coming soon....:D

Looks like another translation is coming soon....:D

You can compare it yourself

Recitation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O_SxcjuwX4&NR=1

Translation(s):
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/001.qmt.html

For salat (prayer):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi9hoIMIuhA

The Qu'ran refers back to the bible a lot, but it seems the Prophet only read (or liked) a few of the old stories, so he tends to repeat them over and over.

The Qu'ran refers back to the bible a lot, but it seems the Prophet only read (or liked) a few of the old stories, so he tends to repeat them over and over.

Which stories are those? :)

Well, he talks a lot about Lot and his family and Noah. Those are the main ones I remember.

Well, he talks a lot about Lot and his family and Noah. Those are the main ones I remember.

He does huh? Constant references to the two of them?

How about Moses? Abraham?

http://www.quranmiracles.com/mmwh/mmlhread.asp?id=50

;)

Is it really an issue wether holy scriptures are interesting or not.. ?

You're sayig the Koran is boring, guess what? So is the bible and torah! *surprise*

You can compare it yourself

Recitation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O_SxcjuwX4&NR=1

Translation(s):
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/001.qmt.html

For salat (prayer):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi9hoIMIuhA


thanx for the video, they're sound beautiful.

Is it really an issue wether holy scriptures are interesting or not.. ?

I think its also an issue of familiarity; we hear the Quran all the time, recited for prayers, so we are familiar with the cadences of the verses. To us, it is a familiar rhythm that we associate with peace and prayer. I suppose to someone who just reads it dryly in prose from one of the gazillion translations, it makes very little sense, especially when most of the people who read it have very little knowledge of Islam. This would also hold true for Muslims who are not educated in the religion, I think.

how does one become educated in islam then? the only thing they can really do is read the quran because all other islamic documents are man-made, thus imperfect, and cannot be accepted as the truth

how does one become educated in islam then? the only thing they can really do is read the quran because all other islamic documents are man-made, thus imperfect, and cannot be accepted as the truth

The same way one gets educated in everything else, you read, read, read, learn what is the basis for the way the Quran is interpreted, who are the respected scholars in the field, why and what other reviewers think about it. There is no "right" solution, only the solution you decide on after examining all the alternatives.

The best part of Islam is that no opinion is ever discarded, nor is any review of an opinion; all you need is the motivation to learn about it. If your motives and intentions are pure, then your decision will reflect it. I have never met an aalim I could not respect. They have the most beautiful words; some of them are too strictly conservative for me, but that is because they live in a different cultural context.

I found the Quran is repetitive yet not boring. This for example:

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem

Qul a'udhu bi Rabbi-n-nas
Maliki-n-nas
Ilahi-n-nas
Min-sharri-l-waswasi-l-khannas
Alladhi yuwaswisu fi suduri-n-nas
Min al-jinnati wa-n-nas

Means: (http://www.muslimtents.com/missionislam/islam/quran/nas.htm)

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
The King of mankind,
The God of mankind,
From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind,
Of the jinn and of mankind.

how could that be boring? :confused: A thing is boring when it is not only
repetitive but also meaningless.

In my homeland far far away where I could hear adzan (the calling to pray)
five times a day, I never feel bored to hear it. Always the same sound,
always the same tone, but like eating 3 times a day, it doesnt feel boring.

I love the sound of the adhan too! :)

In my homeland, Indonesia, every year there is a tradition of MTQ competition,
MTQ = Musabaqoh Tilawatil Quran (if I spell it correctly). The contestant
should read same part of Quran, but although they read same part, all to
me are sound different. Some of them could read a very loooooong part
without taking a breath, and in high tone. It could gimme goose bumps.

Musabaqat tilawat al-Qur'an [Qur’an recitation contests]

Qira is also based on tradition:

Recitation must be done according to rules of pronunciation, intonation, and caesuras established by the Prophet Muhammad, though first recorded in the eight century CE. The most popular reading is that of Hafs on the authority of `asim. Qur'an reading may be based on one to three tones only. Similarly, each melodic passage centers on a single tone level, but the melodic contour and melodic passages are largely shaped by the reading rules, creating passages of different lengths whose temporal expansion is defined through caesuras. Skilled readers may read professionally for mosques in cities, although being paid for reciting the Qur'an is prohibited by Islam[citation needed].

The Qur'an is marked with twenty-six symbols, circles, rectangles, dashes and letters, some in color. These are written above, below, or beside the letters of the alphabet . They indicate the pronunciation of consonants, whether the blending of neighboring or adjacent consonants is allowed, and where recitation pauses and caesuras are forbidden and possible

I once was a bit annoyed of the constant Russian orthodox church bells by my house (they had some festival) and I put loudspeaker by the window and played recitations from Quoran really loud.
Of course I didn't understand a word, but the overall feeling was suprisingly nice, especially when together with church bells - sort of like Jerusalem.

p.s. Repetition is an essential property of ritual.

I once was a bit annoyed of the constant Russian orthodox church bells by my house (they had some festival) and I put loudspeaker by the window and played recitations from Quoran really loud.
Of course I didn't understand a word, but the overall feeling was suprisingly nice, especially when together with church bells - sort of like Jerusalem.

p.s. Repetition is an essential property of ritual.

uh, actually I like bells too. My grandma's house was in a Hindu community and there were frequent prayer meetings at night with manjeeras and bells; that's how I learned all the Hindu prayer songs. :p

I really really like the words, music, rhythm of Om Jai Jagdish Hare. Its an awesome prayer (aarti , actually)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BPHl_120gw

The prayer

http://premavatar.tripod.com/bhakti/ojjh.html

uh, actually I like bells too. My grandma's house was in a Hindu community and there were frequent prayer meetings at night with manjeeras and bells; that's how I learned all the Hindu prayer songs. :p

I really really like the words, music, rhythm of Om Jai Jagdish Hare. Its an awesome prayer (aarti , actually)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BPHl_120gw

The prayer

http://premavatar.tripod.com/bhakti/ojjh.html


Oh, I remember I heard this song once in an Indian movie staring Shahrukh
Khan! I thought its just another Indian song, apparently its a prayer!
Beautiful prayer! :cool: Thanx for the link, ja.

Btw, is the light the part of the ritual? There are so many lights in there,
from candles, torch, and even the wall are full of lamps...!

Oh, I remember I heard this song once in an Indian movie staring Shahrukh
Khan! I thought its just another Indian song, apparently its a prayer!
Beautiful prayer! :cool: Thanx for the link, ja.

Btw, is the light the part of the ritual? There are so many lights in there,
from candles, torch, and even the wall are full of lamps...!

Hinduism is all light and song. Lots of special effects and color!:p

This is a very famous arti, sung on almost every special occasion.

Heh, I like SRK too.

Hinduism is all light and song. Lots of special effects and color!:p

This is a very famous arti, sung on almost every special occasion.

Heh, I like SRK too.


I have created a shortcut into this song :cool:

Btw, I heard that SRK is hindu and wife is moslem, or SRK is moslem and his
wife is hindu. This is not common in my country. Is it common in India?
I mean, how the muslim/hindu community see it? Sorry if this has been
discussed in some other thread. Or maybe I heard it wrong.

But I like SRK too :cool: (I guess there shoud be "in love" smiley here)

If your motives and intentions are pure

What do you mean with pure in this context? You mean like morally 'good'?

I have created a shortcut into this song :cool:

Btw, I heard that SRK is hindu and wife is moslem, or SRK is moslem and his
wife is hindu. This is not common in my country. Is it common in India?
I mean, how the muslim/hindu community see it? Sorry if this has been
discussed in some other thread. Or maybe I heard it wrong.

But I like SRK too (I guess there shoud be "in love" smiley here)

He is Muslim and she is Hindu; its pretty common in movie stars.


Here is your smiley:

http://smileycollector.com/images/smiles/011203mht_prv.gif

What do you mean with pure in this context? You mean like morally 'good'?

It means not intended to lie to yourself or because you are afraid or doing it out of a sense of compulsion.

He is Muslim and she is Hindu; its pretty common in movie stars.


Here is your smiley:

http://smileycollector.com/images/smiles/011203mht_prv.gif


Thanx!

I think its also an issue of familiarity; we hear the Quran all the time, recited for prayers, so we are familiar with the cadences of the verses. To us, it is a familiar rhythm that we associate with peace and prayer. I suppose to someone who just reads it dryly in prose from one of the gazillion translations, it makes very little sense, especially when most of the people who read it have very little knowledge of Islam. This would also hold true for Muslims who are not educated in the religion, I think.

Sure, but the Bible is equally boring that way. And im sure the Torah too. I just dont think its of any importance wether they are boring or not, isnt it about the content ?

I think all of it can sound nice. Any of it can sound operatic and be just as enjoyable to listening to good opera even if you don't understand the language the opera is sung in.

The books are so boring. If rewritten into children tales they are a little better for children. The OT is one of the most boring book on the planet.

I keep a copy of The Holy Bible by my bedside for when I wish to hasten the onset of stage IV sleep.

repetitive?
Like what is repetitive? Explain.

Sure, but the Bible is equally boring that way. And im sure the Torah too. I just dont think its of any importance wether they are boring or not, isnt it about the content ?


The content is as boring, to me, in all of the religious writings. They all have about the same thing going for them, dogma.


Dogma \Dog"ma\, n.; pl. E. Dogmas, L. Dogmata. [L. dogma,
Gr. ?, pl. ?, fr. ? to think, seem, appear; akin to L. decet
it is becoming. Cf. Decent.]
1. That which is held as an opinion; a tenet; a doctrine.

The obscure and loose dogmas of early antiquity. --
Whewell.

2. A formally stated and authoritatively settled doctrine; a
definite, established, and authoritative tenet.

3. A doctrinal notion asserted without regard to evidence or
truth; an arbitrary dictum.

Syn: tenet; opinion; proposition; doctrine.

Usage: -- Dogma, Tenet. A tenet is that which is
maintained as true with great firmness; as, the tenets
of our holy religion. A dogma is that which is laid
down with authority as indubitably true, especially a
religious doctrine; as, the dogmas of the church. A
tenet rests on its own intrinsic merits or demerits; a
dogma rests on authority regarded as competent to
decide and determine. Dogma has in our language
acquired, to some extent, a repulsive sense, from its
carrying with it the idea of undue authority or
assumption. This is more fully the case with its
derivatives dogmatical and dogmatism.

You probably read a translation. :)

sam, i know you are bias towards this (ofcourse) just because you happen to be a muslim. i own 2 qurans and the one i can read is written by Abdullah Yusufali, my muslim friends say its very good translation. i was given it at a mosque in east london, it has both english and arabic side by side and muslims use it here.


to be honest from a non bias perspective i honestly think it is boring and repeats itself alot. the whole thing hardly has any story compared to the old testament. i must admit that the bible is a better read. the quran has good parts, and so do the seperate scripts of mohammed. but its just true that the bible is more fun to read.

especially singing the quran, its just not as good. (except for remembering it)


peace.

Repitition is also a key method in brainwashing.

sam, i know you are bias towards this (ofcourse) just because you happen to be a muslim. i own 2 qurans and the one i can read is written by Abdullah Yusufali, my muslim friends say its very good translation. i was given it at a mosque in east london, it has both english and arabic side by side and muslims use it here.


to be honest from a non bias perspective i honestly think it is boring and repeats itself alot. the whole thing hardly has any story compared to the old testament. i must admit that the bible is a better read. the quran has good parts, and so do the seperate scripts of mohammed. but its just true that the bible is more fun to read.

especially singing the quran, its just not as good. (except for remembering it)


peace.

The Quran (the recital, literally) is meant to be recited, it is not sung.:)

I find the Mahabharata/Bhagavad-Gita more interesting. Some cool war stories as well as spiritual teachings in there.

- N

I find the Mahabharata/Bhagavad-Gita more interesting. Some cool war stories as well as spiritual teachings in there.

- N

if you enjoy contact sports (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4334746080303446808) you should try visiting a temple during a festival

:D

All religious texts are repetitive. Repetition is also a technique often employed in folklore story telling and is also present in music composition. When we repeat, we create rhythm, emphasis, pattern, etc. A religious text is a piece of literature and its authors kept a certain style for conveying their stories to the readers, creating moods, and so on.

Is it deja'vu or have I heard this atheistic argument before??
:P

Quran is the eternal miracle. It is the last Book of Allah sent for the guidance of humanity through the last Prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him (PBUH).

Revelation of the Quran
The Quran was revealed piecemeal throughout a period of about 23 years. The Prophet received the first revelation in 610CE, in the Cave of Hira in the Mountain of Light (Jabale-Noor), two and a half miles away from the House of Allah in the city of Makkah in Arabia.

The first revelation was the first five verses of Surah (chapter) Al-Alaq: "Iqra bismi rabbikalla dhi khalaq. Khalaqal insana min alaq. Iqra wa rabbukal akram. Alladhi 'allama bil qalam. 'Allamal insana malam ya’lam, " which means "Read in the name of your Lord who created, created man from a clot. Read, for your Lord is most Generous, Who teaches by means of the pen, teaches man what he does not know." (96: 1-5)

The last revelation was the third verse of Surah Al-Maidah, which was sent down to the Prophet in 632 C.E. : "Al yawma akmaltu lakum dinakam wa atmamtu alaikam ni'mati wa raditu' lakumul islama dinan''," which means "Today I perfected your religion for you and completed my favor to you and have chosen for you Al-Islam as your religion." (5:3)

Surah Al-Fatiha (The Opening Chapter) was the first complete chapter to be revealed and Surah An-Nasr was the last.

Divisions of the Quran
Al-Quran is divided into thirty equal divisions, which are called juz in Arabic. There are 114 chapters, of varying length. The longest chapter is Al-Baqarah consisting of 286 verses and the shortest chapter is AlKawthar consisting of three verses only. The whole Quran has 6,236 verses (see Basic Stats on The Holy Quran )

The chapters revealed before the migration of the Prophet to Madina are called Makkan, whereas those sent down after the migration are called Madinan.

Topics of the Chapters
Makkan chapters generally consist of brief sentences which are full of enthusiasm, poetical, lofty and brilliant. They stress the Unity and Majesty of Allah, the Most Exalted, Most High (SWT), denounce idol worship, promise paradise for the righteous and warn wrongdoers of their punishment in Hellfire, confirm the prophethood of Muhammad (PBUH), and remind humanity of the past prophets and events of their time.

On the other hand, the Madinan chapters are lengthy and the verses are more prosaic. They outline ritualistic aspects of Islam such as Zakah, Fasting, and Hajj, lay down moral and ethical codes, criminal laws, social, economic, and state policies, give guidelines for foreign relations, rules and regulations for battle and the captives of war. They also contain descriptions of some of the early battles of Islam, condemnation of hypocrites, emphasis on the unified basic message of all the past prophets, and confirmation that the process of prophethood and revelation is complete, so that no Prophet will come after Muhammad [PBUH], no new book will be revealed, and Allah's religion is complete through Al-Quran. So here Allah [SWT] exhorted the followers of truth to make Al-Quran as their only guide.

The Importance of the Quran
The Quran is considered the eternal miracle of Islam. It is the complete and best guide for living one's life and seeking Allah's pleasure The teachings of the Quran are universal, addressed to all people throughout the world regardless of their creed and color. They enlighten man's soul, purify his morals, condemn all wrongs, order good deeds and call for the establishment of justice and fraternity through obeying Allah as the supreme authority. The Quran provides the regulations that create the proper relations between man and Allah and man and man. It leads man to understand his role in this world, encourages him to think and ponder, and guides him in the usage of natural resources. In short, the Quran provides all the guidance that humanity needs. Without the guidance of the Quran, humanity would still be groping in the darkness of ignorance.

Compilation of the Quran
The Quran was revealed piecemeal, according to the needs of the time. Angel Jibrail [PBUH] brought it to the Prophet [PBUH] who would memorize it. Afterwards, it was preserved in two ways.

First, through memorization, there were a number of early Muslims who would memorize each revelation as soon as it was revealed and thus had the whole Quran memorized at the time of the final revelation. The tradition of memorizing the entire Quran still continues, and a person who does so is called a Hafize Quran.

Second, the Quran was preserved through writing. Whenever any revelation took place, it was written at once on tablets, palm branches, shorn of leaves, or animal skin. This was done primarily by Zaid bin Thabit, who was the main scribe out of the 42 scribes of the revelation. The Prophet [PBUH] set the order of the chapters under the guidance of Angel Jibrail [PBUH] and ordered his companions to maintain that order. Abu Bakr, the first caliph of Islam, compiled the Quran, and Uthman, the third caliph, made numerous copies and sent one copy to each state capital.

Eternal Miracle
Al-Quran is the only ever living miracle. Today no other miracle of any prophet exists. According to a survey, the number of Huffaz (persons who have memorized the whole Quran) today is more than 10 million.
Millions of editions and copies were printed and handwritten in almost every part of the world. They were also translated into most of the languages of mankind. During the period of over 1400 years since the Quran was revealed, not a single letter was changed. This is one of the greatest miracles of the Quran.

Thanks, quite informative from a muslim point of view, I guess.
So, do you find Quran boring and repetitive?

In short, the Quran provides all the guidance that humanity needs. Without the guidance of the Quran, humanity would still be groping in the darkness of ignorance.
Can't agree with this. There are lots of civilizations who don't read quran, and there were glorious civilizations and empires before it.
And today the most backward countries in terms of education, healthcare, security, healthcare, etc., seem to be muslim countries, if we don't count the primitive tribes of Africa.

You probably read a translation. :)

Why do you not want to free yourself from the shackles of manmade religion?

http://www.actualfreedom.com.au/introduction/universe.htm

Is it really an issue wether holy scriptures are interesting or not.. ?Yes of course it is. These "holy books" were originally folk tales that were passed on orally--in the era before printing presses and widespread literacy. You got to hear it from a guy who knew his audience and would tell it in a way that would keep that audience's attention. A good storyteller can absolutely captivate you; he's like a good actor, and in fact I guess that's what he is in a way.

Now that we're all just reading printed copies of these books, all we hear is that dull monotone in our heads. (Yes I know some people can read without putting the sounds in their heads and some add dramatic voices, but most of us can't do either of those things.)

Add to that the fact that these books were first turned into writing in ancient times. The language comes across as stilted and the references are anachronistic--both of which discourage the reader rather than engaging him. Yes I know there's a New English Bible, but even without the "begat"s and the "thou didst"s it's still just a faithful translation of stories that were told thousands of years ago. You can be sure that if it had been passed down orally, it would have been updated by every storyteller so as to still be true to its purpose but now told in a modern setting that people can relate to.

I have never bothered to read the Koran (sorry that's how we spelled it in my day), but I have to say that the Bible is not a great piece of literature. I've read the ancient Greek playwrights and their stories are far more interesting. And just as full of Universal Truths, told in a way that I can stay awake and digest them.

Yes of course it is. These "holy books" were originally folk tales that were passed on orally--in the era before printing presses and widespread literacy. You got to hear it from a guy who knew his audience and would tell it in a way that would keep that audience's attention. A good storyteller can absolutely captivate you; he's like a good actor, and in fact I guess that's what he is in a way.

Now that we're all just reading printed copies of these books, all we hear is that dull monotone in our heads. (Yes I know some people can read without putting the sounds in their heads and some add dramatic voices, but most of us can't do either of those things.)

Add to that the fact that these books were first turned into writing in ancient times. The language comes across as stilted and the references are anachronistic--both of which discourage the reader rather than engaging him. Yes I know there's a New English Bible, but even without the "begat"s and the "thou didst"s it's still just a faithful translation of stories that were told thousands of years ago. You can be sure that if it had been passed down orally, it would have been updated by every storyteller so as to still be true to its purpose but now told in a modern setting that people can relate to.

I have never bothered to read the Koran (sorry that's how we spelled it in my day), but I have to say that the Bible is not a great piece of literature. I've read the ancient Greek playwrights and their stories are far more interesting. And just as full of Universal Truths, told in a way that I can stay awake and digest them.

Of course it is only logical that they wanted to make them interesting for purposes of spreading the word.
But when confronted with holy scriptures as they are today, isn't what they convey (or whether they are even truthful) far more important ?

But when confronted with holy scriptures as they are today, isn't what they convey (or whether they are even truthful) far more important ? Probably not. Even complete incomprehensibility (as with, say, the Latin services of the Catholic Church until recently) is no barrier to their playing their normal role.

edit in: Book of Mormon is more boring than the Koran - and no translation excuse.