"Whether tis nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...."

I was watching a story on A&E yesterday about this 19 year old kid who apparently got the crap beat out of him on a daily basis by his grandfather. Said grandfather also repeatedly beat and raped the boy's mother (his own daughter), beat the boy's grandmother, and the boy's sister. Grandad started making moves toward the sister. After one particularly brutal beating, when the boy was 19, the boy, a friend of his, and his stepfather shot and killed granddad while he was sleeping.

The psychologist hired by the defense said that people can feel trapped in a situation, and murder seems the only way out.

Now, that's just not true. Neil from "Dead Poets Society" demonstrated that aptly.

When is suicide understandable? Even forgivable? When your physical pain becomes so unbearable as to make simply living hell on earth, I'd give that. But what level of psychological suffering must one reach before it's okay to off oneself?

I consider it better to try to solve the problem without killing people, yourself or otherwise. They might have been afraid to contact authorities, but I think it was worth a shot.

Suicide is never painless for your family and friends. I think most who commit suicide know this, but want to spread their hurt onto others.

i don't think you ought to base your existence upon the opinion of others. if you really want to kill yourself, then you should be free to doing it. just do it right the first time, and for gods sake, don't swallow pills [grr..].

Its always understandable if the said person wants to die. Forgiveable? I'm not sure that even applies.

For me, suicide seems too convenient to follow through with. I've threatened myself a couple of times. Threatened to follow through with the threats, but now I can always call the bluff.-- I simply love life too much.

Even hell can be fun if you're creative.

Bitterchick:
When is suicide understandable? Even forgivable?
When its social.

If you have a very bad disease and you know that you are going to die in a very short or long period of time you should be able to commit suicide AFTER talking about it with your loved ones. If your going to be in allot of pain and suffer quite a bit it is one quick way out of all of the suffering AFTER you discuss it with loved ones. I repeat myself for I want everyone to realise that suicide isn't always the way to go but perhaps for some it should be. Say your 80 years old and cannot walk and have cancer that will slowly take your life and you will be in allot of pain, then that person would be ready if they so choose to commit suicide IMO.

When is suicide understandable? Even forgivable? When your physical pain becomes so unbearable as to make simply living hell on earth, I'd give that. But what level of psychological suffering must one reach before it's okay to off oneself?

I think this is a misconception, that suicide, is because of psyhcological suffering, and nor do I think it is wrong to willingly end your own life. I am pro-choice, that is their choice, then I say, more power to them. The reasons for suicide are many, and yes, one of them is, unbearable pain, but there are others:

1: You are bored
2: You have no drive to continue
3: You feel you do not fit in the world, and nor want to
4: You are killing yourself to a short-cut to the after-life
5: You are killing yourself to save another

Ok am I the only one who is wondering why suicide is being asked about when homicide was committed. The 19 year old, along with his accomplices, Killed the grandad....no one killed themselves....did they?

yeah i'm a little confused

Because suicide was an option, as opposed to homicide? Maybe?

Neil from dead poet's society killed himself not his father ..
This thread probably belongs in "morality & ethics".
WHy would anyone give up his life for a brutal rapest? I would've killed that bastard way before I was 19.

I would have tied him down, castrated him and connected his genitals to the farthest electrical outlet using aligator wires...now tell me how killing could be more fun than that??

It brings on many changes, but you can take or leave it, if you please.

"Suicide is never painless for your family and friends. I think most who commit suicide know this, but want to spread their hurt onto others."

most people who commit suicide know this, yes, but they dont do it to be spiteful, what the hell would that achieve? they do it because they are having only bad times in their lives, no good ones

Granted, it was a long way getting there, but the story was to illustrate the "he had no other choice than murder" of another, when in fact he could have chosen to kill himself. (I'm guessing he didn't because it would have still left his little sister vulnerable to granddad's attacks).

I agree that an informed choice of suicide and assisted-suicide is reasonable when the act of simply being alive makes life unbearable. We euthanize dogs when they are going to suffer but we don't allow humans the same courtesy.

It's the ones that don't come from physical pain that I wonder about. Pain comes in many forms, physical pain being only one manifestation of it. What level of emotional pain must someone suffer before we can forgive his or her choice to check out?

Suicide is never understandable nor forgivable. There is always going to be someone out there, blinded by sadness and rage, to fully understand why you commited suicide in the first place. Those who are close to you and wanted you to live will find ways out of the situation which caused you to commit suicide and will always wonder why you never took that way out. They will find ways WHY you should live, HOW you could have stayed alive, Where you could have lived and so on. They would wonder why you never came to them, why you never sought help (even if you did), and what they could have done to prevent it. No matter what the circumstances are there will be people who will think this and who will grieve over your death for a long time after you die. So, no it is not understandable nor forgivable by everyone.

I am in favor of physician-assisted suicide in cases of terminal illness. All other forms of suicide are a cowardly escape, there is, almost always, some other means of escape- religion, drugs, the bus, psychotherapy. In the case of this grandfather situation, they did the right thing- if someone is keeping you in an intolerable situation- they are the problem that must be addressed, not yourself. In fact, he got off too easy. Perhaps the police could have done something sooner, though.

I think this is a misconception, that suicide, is because of psyhcological suffering . . .The reasons for suicide are many, and yes, one of them is, unbearable pain, but there are others:

1: You are bored
2: You have no drive to continue
3: You feel you do not fit in the world, and nor want to
4: You are killing yourself to a short-cut to the after-life
5: You are killing yourself to save another

You know, you should really to talk with a psychologist, because frankly you've got some strange ideas about why people kill themselves.

"you are bored/no drive to continue/don't fit in" are all abbreviated signs of depression (certainly psychological suffering) which is by and large the most common cause for someone to kill themselves. "Shortcut to the after life" would likely be a justification that an already clinically depressed and suicidal individual might give themselves to help them muster the initiative to go through with it. And killing yourself to save another only happens on TV, outside of maybe some rare situations in wars and the like, I don't think that this happens very often at all.

Now, as for the suggestion that this boy might have considered killing himself instead, I'd just have to say that this is a completely despicable and unjustifiable point of view! Why in the world should he die just because this old man has made his own life and that of his family a living hell? I agree that the correct course of action would probably have been to first contact the authorities and get the old bastard locked away, however, regardless the act of murdering the old man was close to being heroic. His grandfather bought about his own murder, you don't screw with other people's lives like that without warranting punishment or retribution, that's why we have laws to prevent such things, and it's far better that this young man should have taken matters into his own hands to solve the problem, and give his grandfather what he had coming than to sit back and let it continue. It was certainly much better than taking himself out of the equation, now THAT would have been tragic, and senseless. To propose that if someone antagonizes you enough that you then are responsible to take your own life if you've got a problem with the situation is utterly absurd. I assume he was only trying to solve the problem in the only way that his shattered psyche would allow him, and more power too him I say!

On the issue of Suicide in general I'd have to be against it entirely in any case (ahh though not against murder in all cases, oddly enough) It's most often an act of desperation made while in a state where you simply can't see that your life could ever get better again. I'm generally against making decisions based on hypothetical projections of the future that your choice wont let you live to see.

In the example situation you gave, suicide would have been a much worse option than murder. He would have been abandoning his mother, grandmother, and sister to this man, and only freeing himself from the abuse. The way he went about it, killing the old man in his sleep, almost seems like a very level headed responsible way to go about it. If he was more of a damaged person he probably would have wanted his grandfather to see it coming, to gloat a little, but doing it in his sleep, in a way that seems to lack any vindictive spite, it seems like he still had his head about him.

In a situation like that, I can't say that murder was wrong, if this old rapist thug had been making his life hell, and the life of his family hell, and you cant trust the authorities (who can blame him for not trusting authorities, he gets beaten at school after all, the place is supposed to be bristling with responsible people). What he did seemed from his perspective, and from someone trying to see his perspective, like cool headed justice. While suicide would have been almost traitorous to the rest of his family, left behind with fewer family members to absorb the wrath of this old man.

You know, you should really to talk with a psychologist, because frankly you've got some strange ideas about why people kill themselves.

You know, you should not be so presumptious and act all-knowing, because these ACTUALLY are valid reasons if someone wants to kill themselves.

"you are bored/no drive to continue/don't fit in" are all abbreviated signs of depression (certainly psychological suffering)

False. If boredom is a sign of depression, then you could say, everyone is depressed, because people are bored regularly. When someone is completely bored of life, they need not be depressed, much like being bored normally, is not being depressed either. That's not psychological suffering.

Shortcut to the after life" would likely be a justification that an already clinically depressed and suicidal individual might give themselves to help them muster the initiative to go through with it.

You do not have to be depressed to kill yourself to get to the after life. You could happily just throw yourself of the roof of a high-rise building, thinking you will just wake up in a much better world. It really depends, on how strong your beliefs are, but it does not necessarily imply, you are depressed.

And killing yourself to save another only happens on TV, outside of maybe some rare situations in wars and the like, I don't think that this happens very often at all.

It happens, that's all you need to know. It's one reason, why people commit suicide.

Now, as for the suggestion that this boy might have considered killing himself instead, I'd just have to say that this is a completely despicable and unjustifiable point of view! Why in the world should he die just because this old man has made his own life and that of his family a living hell? I agree that the correct course of action would probably have been to first contact the authorities and get the old bastard locked away, however, regardless the act of murdering the old man was close to being heroic. His grandfather bought about his own murder, you don't screw with other people's lives like that without warranting punishment or retribution, that's why we have laws to prevent such things, and it's far better that this young man should have taken matters into his own hands to solve the problem, and give his grandfather what he had coming than to sit back and let it continue. It was certainly much better than taking himself out of the equation, now THAT would have been tragic, and senseless. To propose that if someone antagonizes you enough that you then are responsible to take your own life if you've got a problem with the situation is utterly absurd. I assume he was only trying to solve the problem in the only way that his shattered psyche would allow him, and more power too him I say!

You are soo opinionated. You have no right to make judgements about the boys actions, simply because, you were not subject to the emotions, thoughts, and experiences the boy was subjected too, to understand, why this boy may want to kill himself.
I can understand, why he may want to kill himself, going through such a traumatic and horrific life, and seeing nothing but hate and unjust, why would he want to live on, and for what? It's his choice ultimately, wether he lives on with his horrific past and dies later, or dies earlier.

I really do not understand your antagonism against suicide. You are going to die anyway one day, so what is the problem, in choosing that day. If it's your choice, to kill yourself, then nobody should stop you. Its irrelavant, what society thinks - society are a bunch of idiots anyway.

Suicide is never understandable nor forgivable. There is always going to be someone out there, blinded by sadness and rage, to fully understand why you commited suicide in the first place. Those who are close to you and wanted you to live will find ways out of the situation which caused you to commit suicide and will always wonder why you never took that way out. They will find ways WHY you should live, HOW you could have stayed alive, Where you could have lived and so on. They would wonder why you never came to them, why you never sought help (even if you did), and what they could have done to prevent it. No matter what the circumstances are there will be people who will think this and who will grieve over your death for a long time after you die. So, no it is not understandable nor forgivable by everyone.There are many cases in which any reasonable person would consider suicide to be a perfectly rational and justified decision. If someone I loved had a choice between living for a few months (or years) in constant pain or ending their life immediately, I couldn't really fault them for choosing suicide.

If someone I loved had a choice between living for a few months (or years) in constant pain or ending their life immediately, I couldn't really fault them for choosing suicide.

Is there some significance here about this person being a loved one? Would it not be okay if you didn't love them? I'm just not catching the significance of the example being someone you loved ... :(

For anyone who is diluted enough to believe that suicide is a choice that any rational person comes to (the very idea of that is contradictory as suicide is inherently irrational) rather than a desicion made out of desperation as the result of an alterd and depressed psychological state, I'd suggest you take a look at a few of these links: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/sommerb/taskforce/depressw.html

I'd reccomend especialy that you take a look at this informative pdf (http://www.suicidology.org/associations/1045/files/AAS%20Suicide%20Fact%20Sheet%20%2D%20Some%20facts% 20about%20suicide%20and%20depression%2Epdf)

Suicide is not something people do just because they’re kind of bored. One does not come to a point in their life where they feel utterly spent and unable to move on, preferring instead to die, without being in a state of consciousness severely altered by depression or desperation.

Furthermore I still have no idea at all what suicide has to do with the topic of this thread.

Suicide is never understandable nor forgivable. There is always going to be someone out there, blinded by sadness and rage....
I think that entire post is an awfully selfish and self-absorbed point-of-view.

I have had friends that have committed suicide, and nothing pissed me off more than those that complained about how it made the survivors feel.
I prefer to consider how the person that killed him/herself felt to drive them to this.
What is unforgivable is viewing this as something that has TO BE forgiven at all, let alone not being able TO forgive them.
If someone you loved committed suicide and all you could think about is how YOU feel about them and how YOU miss them, and what they did TO YOU, then I don't think you truly understand what it means to love someone.
You didn't love that person, you posessed them because you like the way they made YOU feel when you were with them.
There is a difference.
One is selfless love for another being.
The other is self-absorbed love for one's self.

I am always dismayed at how many people disagree with me about this.

Is there some significance here about this person being a loved one? Would it not be okay if you didn't love them? I'm just not catching the significance of the example being someone you loved.I was responding specifically to Vortox, who said that the people who know a suicide victim usually won't be able to accept their decision and will be, as he put it, "blinded by sadness and rage." I assumed he was talking about the loved-ones of the person who commits suicide, since presumably the suicide of casual acquaintances or stranger wouldn’t provoke such an extreme reaction.

For anyone who is diluted enough to believe that suicide is a choice that any rational person comes to (the very idea of that is contradictory as suicide is inherently irrational) rather than a desicion made out of desperation as the result of an alterd and depressed psychological state, I'd suggest you take a look at a few of these links: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/sommerb/taskforce/depressw.html

It's clear rubbish. A rational person could choose suicide, and it could be a rational decision.

Suicide is not something people do just because they’re kind of bored. One does not come to a point in their life where they feel utterly spent and unable to move on, preferring instead to die, without being in a state of consciousness severely altered by depression or desperation.

You are sadly mistaken then. As people can become bored, or tire of life, as life has no meaning whatsoever, meaning is only fabricated, so if somone wakes up, and decides, their life is nothing more than a grande illusion, or cosmic joke, or are finding life to be empty and useless, and and decides to end it, then it's their choice, and its not an entirely irrational decision to make.

As I said, they will die one day anyway, so why not, choose that day themselves. Can't really say they are missing out on anything. If they lived, all they would have lived for, would be a fabrication. When they are dead, that's it they're gone, total cessation, and no sense, to sense what they have missed, or what the hypocritical socieity are spouting about them.

You have no right, to deny anyone the right, to end their own life. It's their life, and as long as they respect the right of others to choose their own existence, more power to them.

So you're telling me that I'm wrong, but then stating that if someone woke up with a sudden judgement impairing emotional wave of despair and took their own life that that would be entirely rational and reasonable? You do realize that you're an idiot don't you? I can only hope that you suddenly awaken to the idea that your entire life is a meaningless joke.

People seem to be confused over whether you mean emotional or physical pain, and if its the pain of the suicide-ee or their family. If you drank a whole of of sulphuric acid then it will hurt a hell of a lot before you die, i know I've tasted it... ouch! Throwing yourself of a 30 storey building it not supposed to hurt at all. You can't feel emotional pain if you're dead, and your family are of course. So what was the actual question?

So you're telling me that I'm wrong, but then stating that if someone woke up with a sudden judgement impairing emotional wave of despair and took their own life that that would be entirely rational and reasonable?

What if they took their time and came to a rational decision that their life is pointless and meaningless?
What if they were of sound mind, and simply came to the realization that the absurdists and nihilists were right?
Does that mean they are insane?
Maybe they think you are insane for not undertsanding the truth.
Who are you to tell them that they are wrong?

Also, what if that pain was not a simple passing despair?
If someone lived in horrible pain (physical and/or emotional) and, after many years of trying, could not end the pain?
Are they wrong for taking their life after every other "rational" attempt to end the suffering failed?

For anyone who is diluted enough to believe that suicide is a choice that any rational person comes to (the very idea of that is contradictory as suicide is inherently irrational) rather than a desicion made out of desperation as the result of an alterd and depressed psychological state, I'd suggest you take a look at a few of these links: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/sommerb/taskforce/depressw.html

I'd reccomend especialy that you take a look at this informative pdf (http://www.suicidology.org/associations/1045/files/AAS%20Suicide%20Fact%20Sheet%20%2D%20Some%20facts% 20about%20suicide%20and%20depression%2Epdf)

Suicide is not something people do just because they’re kind of bored. One does not come to a point in their life where they feel utterly spent and unable to move on, preferring instead to die, without being in a state of consciousness severely altered by depression or desperation.I disagree. It's possible for a coldly rational person to weigh the pros and cons of continuing to live and decide that suicide is the best option. Of course anyone who reaches such a decision is likely to be in an extremely distressed emotional state, but that doesn't necessarily mean that their decision isn't a legitimate one. Not all people who chose suicide are influenced by mental illness or unbalanced brain chemistry.Furthermore I still have no idea at all what suicide has to do with the topic of this thread.You might be right about that.

Mystech, don't call me the idiot, i'm not the self-absorbed and self-centered ego maniac, that thinks people have to abide by my opinions. You call it a sudden judgement impairing emotional wave of despair? Well that's quite literally rubbish. Making the decision to end ones life, is a difficult one, and it tests all the limits we have, when we make it.

And don't give me the bullshit, that life has meaning. You're life is as meaningless, as is mine, and others. As you are obviously completely inconsiderate, i'll spell it out to you, some of us, have everything, happiness, love, friends, wealth, yet we still feel we have nothing, and this nothing stays with us for the rest of our lives, and while we have happiness, love, friends, welath, we still feel pain, the pain of the nothing. Some of us then opt for suicide, and some of us, put on a front, and lie to ourselves for the rest of our lives.

I don't really care what you have to say, you're obviously an ignorant person, who thinks the universe revolves around them, with utter disregard for others, and their thoughts and philosophies. The objective truth is this, you don't matter, on any scale. You inhabit a small little world, and you're trapped in it. Otherwise, there is little difference between you, and an ant, and the ant has no purpose - unless being crushed by us is a purpose. So why do you? Because you think you are special? Now that's a joke.

I don't really care what you have to say, you're obviously a ignorant person, who thinks the universe revolves around them, with utter disregard for others, and their thoughts and philosophies. The objective truth is this, you don't matter, on any scale. You inhabit a small little world, and you're trapped in it. Otherwise, there is little difference between you, and an ant, and the ant has no purpose, so why do you? Because you think you are special? Now that's a joke.

I don't think I'll be responding to you any more on this subject. It's entirely out of the scope of the original post on this thread to begin with, and you've clearly got some issues you need to work out for yourself anyhow.

I am not sure why people keep say this has nothing to do with the original post.
The original post is specifically about suicide and when/whether it is acceptible.

Suicide IS the topic of this thread.

You have no choice Mystech, nor am I interested in discussing this subject with you, as you too opinionated and ignorant. I don't have the issues, I am just being real, which does not imply I am going to kill myself anytime soon. You, on the other hand, have the issues of facing reality. So have fun in the fantasy world you have created for yourself.

I am not sure why people keep say this has nothing to do with the original post.
The original post is specifically about suicide and when/whether it is acceptible.
This is NOT the point at all! If you would actually READ the original post, you can clearly see that it is saying that in a desperate situation murder can seem the only way out, they then say "but what about suicide"? Is it true that suicide also appears an option, or not? Nothing about whether its acceptable or not idiot!

So have fun in the fantasy world you have created for yourself.

My fantasy world in which people don't just skip merrily down the street humming a great oldie and then suddenly come to the conclusion that they must kill themselves for no reason? Ok, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, then.

I’m sorry about all the things that I’ve said on this subject so far, and it certainly was a dirty trick of me to back up my claims by providing you with resources from knowledgeable psychological associations who have studied suicide quite in depth. I’m especially sorry for that one.

they then say "but what about suicide"? Is it true that suicide also appears an option, or not? Nothing about whether its acceptable or not idiot!
I did read the original thread.
Maybe you should read it again...
When is suicide understandable?
Even forgivable?
what level of psychological suffering must one reach before it's okay to off oneself?
When is it understandable?
When is it forgivable?
When is it OK?

The point is, she pointed out a situation in which the shrink testified that people feel like their only option is murder.
She asked, in a similar situation, should suicide be seen as a viable option to murder as a way out of the situation.

I don't appreciate being called an idiot.
If you posted because you wanted to discuss this with me, then that will not help.
If you posted simply to insult me with with no intention of having a discussion, you can go fuck yourself.

Yeah:mad:

Hey heres something for bored people to figure out;
is it suicide, if you get nude and run around on the african savahnah, expecting to be killed by hyenas or lions, but not letting them kill you, like running away from them and struggling to the end?
You're not killing yourself, or even letting yourself be killed exactly, but rather putting yourself in a position where it is likely you will be killed, is this suicide?
If so, I plan on committing "suicide" as soon as I begin to feel the symptoms of lung cancer.
I think it will be the most exiting few hours of my life. I'm looking forward to it.
I'm serious too, like this is no joke, I'm going to have an "africa fund" and save money for a trip to africa. Once there I will all alone stalk the african plains, actually trying to survive, but being a solitary human, ravaged with cancer(I assume) I won't last long.
I really hope I don't die before then in some lame way like a "car wreck" :rolleyes:
One thing for sure is I won't die of lung cancer, nothing is supposed to experience such a horrible death as that.
What we percieve as 'natural causes'(slowly dieing a painful death on a bed over weeks or even years, while feeling humiliated as your loved ones watch on) is the most unnatural death imaginable.
As soon as your stride is laboured, its time to go. I can't wait to feel that bite on my ass, as a hyena struggles to pull me down to the ground where he can tear me apart and eat me alive.
If its wrong avoiding a "natural"(sic) death on a death bed then I want to be wrong.
If I wasn't big on the romanticism of being "picked off the herd" by a predator then I would almost certainly end my life with a gun shot wound to the head.
Why lie around waiting to gradually die? I don't think people understand how terrible that would be.
Edit; Also it is totally illogical. We fear dieing so much that we make sure we live as long as possible even if it hurts, we make it the law that people live as long as possible even if it hurts. We know they will die in a few months but we demand that they suffer for those few months right untill the end.
Its darkly comical. In real life dark comedy is sad.

We fear dieing so much that we make sure we live as long as possible even if it hurts, we make it the law that people live as long as possible even if it hurts. We know they will die in a few months but we demand that they suffer for those few months right untill the end.
Its darkly comical. In real life dark comedy is sad.
It is disgusting.

By the way...
Why go to Africa?
From what I hear the Australian Bush is about as difficult (if not moreso) to survive than the Serebgetti.

Another question, Lou.
Why wait?
You could move there while you are still young, strong, healthy and virile.
Learn how to survive there.
Live in and amongst nature until you die the natural and romantic way.
You would be less likely to get cancer, but if you did, you would already be there.

I want to be hunted. There aren't any serious predators in australia.
I could go the shark route, but I just love everything about the african savahnah.
Thats where humans come from and I feel like the african ecosystems know better than anywhere else how to dispose of a human being.

I feel like the african ecosystems know better than anywhere else how to dispose of a human being.
Except maybe Brooklyn.
Ask Jimmy Hoffa. ;)

Another question, Lou.
Why wait?
You could move there while you are still young, strong, healthy and virile.
Learn how to survive there.
Live in and amongst nature until you die the natural and romantic way.
You would be less likely to get cancer, but if you did, you would already be there.
Hehe
Oh I'm definately trying to cheat.
My plan is cowardly and selfish really.
I'm going to milk the benefits out of the civilised western world for all they're worth, and then recieve the benefit reserved for the battlers that is dieing by way of predation and being consumed.
Dieing slowly on the death bed almost seems like the punishment for having such an easy life in comparison to wild animals. I'm going to cheat, live the easy life and then have an honourable death as though I deserve it when I clearly do not.
No question i am trying to have the best of both worlds(although not everyone would consider being torn apart by hyenas a "privelidge", I very much would).
So sue me;)

Furthermore I still have no idea at all what suicide has to do with the topic of this thread.

It *was* the topic of this thread. I used the story as an illustration. I'm used to people losing the forest for the trees, though.

Where you fall on the issue of suicide comes down to your perception of the value of human life, whether the quality of that life matters, or simply being alive is the important thing. Personally, I don't think being alive is such a swell plan when life is crap. I quit reading Danielle Steele novels in high school because I couldn't understand why someone's life that was *just absolutely shit* would continue to put themselves through it. To this day, I can't understand how certain people can go their entire lives without thinking at least once of taking themselves out of it.

I suppose my point of view is as alien to them as it is to me, and I envy their position. I doubt I'll ever share it.

None of this is meant to imply that suicide is always justified. My oldest brother died of cancer in 2001, and all during his illness we understood that if he ever gave the word that he was in too much pain to go on, we would help him out. (The last part of his illness he was comatose so it didn't come to that: if it had, I would have overdosed him *in a heartbeat*). However, I have little patience for people to act with the specific intent to "show" everyone else. That kind of suicide is just the last act of someone who has acted with only their own interests in mind throughout their lives, and is usually a predictable end to a narcissistic existence.

The point is, she pointed out a situation in which the shrink testified that people feel like their only option is murder.
She asked, in a similar situation, should suicide be seen as a viable option to murder as a way out of the situation.

I don't appreciate being called an idiot.
If you posted because you wanted to discuss this with me, then that will not help.
If you posted simply to insult me with with no intention of having a discussion, you can go fuck yourself.
Yah, but you never once mentioned the other half of it so i wasn't sure you knew it was there. Quite funny the way you think you're so much better than everyone else that everyone is trying to make an attack on you because your death would be so important and unforgivable. I was referring to elsewhere it was mentioned and don't worry, I will.

It *was* the topic of this thread. I used the story as an illustration. I'm used to people losing the forest for the trees, though.

Hi Bitterchick! (ha ha, still love that name!)

I took the first post as an example of someone choosing "death" as an option in a hopeless situation. Their own or someone else's was irrelevent. Then you specified suicide.

I am constantly accused of using flawed analogies. And I do, I admit it.

Certainly, the boy in the story would have no reason to choose suicide, but he did choose death.

So when is it ok to choose suicide? Almost never. Terminal illness with lingering pain I can understand perhaps. Sorry to hear about your brother. I would certainly have a tough time helping someone take that step, but I think I would, under those circumstances.

[QUOTE=Silverback]Hi Bitterchick! (ha ha, still love that name!) [QUOTE=Silverback]

Gracias. :)

[QUOTE=Silverback]I am constantly accused of using flawed analogies. And I do, I admit it. [QUOTE=Silverback]

And I am frequently accused of using 12 words when 2 will do. ;)

[QUOTE=Silverback] So when is it ok to choose suicide? Almost never. Terminal illness with lingering pain I can understand perhaps. Sorry to hear about your brother. I would certainly have a tough time helping someone take that step, but I think I would, under those circumstances.[QUOTE=Silverback]

Fortunately (what an odd choice of word), it didn't come to that. My career would have been over, but I would have "pulled the plug" if it had become necessary.

I've known one and of two other people how have suicided, all for apparent depression-related reasons. Even that, to a degree, I can understand. When life becomes too emotionally painful to be awake, I can at least appreciate, if not approve of, the impulse. A person afflicted with depression can always seek medical help, but sometimes that can result in making things worse -- I actually lost a job when my employer found out I was being treated for depression (following my brother's death and my divorce less than a year later). Everything is swell *now*, but for a few touch-and-go months I wasn't sure if I would ever be able to find another job, pay my bills, keep my car, keep my dogs (who are my *kids*). I kept pushing through, though, because frankly I was the only one who was going to be able to pull me through it all.

I guess the best anyone can do is just keep on truckin'.

MOst of the suicide cases are because of Psychological problems.Oprah W show had a girl who would just cut herself without any cause,she said she involuntarily did that,it was just an impulse...when alone she would just cut herself...She couldnt help it...Off course she didnt wanna die!! but she couldnt resist!!

Suicide is and should be a Psychological problem result and nothing else...


bye!

There are many cases in which any reasonable person would consider suicide to be a perfectly rational and justified decision. If someone I loved had a choice between living for a few months (or years) in constant pain or ending their life immediately, I couldn't really fault them for choosing suicide.

Whle that may be so that is your point of view. There are still gonna be people who believe that, them living for a few months or even years would benefit them. Maybe they would get better, maybe there would be a solution or cure to get them away from the pain. Of course I am not like this, but as I said there are people who are like this.

have had friends that have committed suicide, and nothing pissed me off more than those that complained about how it made the survivors feel.

I suppose teh main reason why people do this is because those who are left behind after the suicide receive the pain of grief and loss since they lost a loved one. They are left with pain after the person who commited suicide is relieved of it.

If someone you loved committed suicide and all you could think about is how YOU feel about them and how YOU miss them, and what they did TO YOU, then I don't think you truly understand what it means to love someone.
You didn't love that person, you posessed them because you like the way they made YOU feel when you were with them.

Yeah well people tend to do it and they do it all the time, and not just with people. It is found all the time, for instance and can be seen in relationships between animals and people...but grief effects everyone in different ways. When someone takes a blow from losing someone they love they go into a state of denial, always thinking about the person. These thoughts tend to go to how they could have prevented it, how they could have helped, and why the person did it. They begin to hate themselves becuase they couldn't help the person. They begin hating others because they couldn't help. This is depression right there and its always found in someone in all suicidal cases. Infact, it is inhuman not to miss them. According to you, you should just think about why they drove to this suicidal conclusion rather than missing the person themselves. Why wouldn't u miss someone you loved? You will never see them again for the rest of your life so u must feel some kind of emotion towards them, wether it be sadness, madness, or grief.

Quite funny the way you think you're so much better than everyone else that everyone is trying to make an attack on you because your death would be so important and unforgivable.

What are you talking about?

"Whether tis nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune...."

I was watching a story on A&E yesterday about this 19 year old kid who apparently got the crap beat out of him on a daily basis by his grandfather. Said grandfather also repeatedly beat and raped the boy's mother (his own daughter), beat the boy's grandmother, and the boy's sister. Grandad started making moves toward the sister. After one particularly brutal beating, when the boy was 19, the boy, a friend of his, and his stepfather shot and killed granddad while he was sleeping.

The psychologist hired by the defense said that people can feel trapped in a situation, and murder seems the only way out.

Now, that's just not true. Neil from "Dead Poets Society" demonstrated that aptly.

When is suicide understandable? Even forgivable? When your physical pain becomes so unbearable as to make simply living hell on earth, I'd give that. But what level of psychological suffering must one reach before it's okay to off oneself?

What on earth are you talking about?

I pray that you never have to experience the TRUE feeling that depression gives a person. Depression that genuinely requires drugs to keep a person sane, to keep a person even half happy, to stop a person from cutting their arms. Depression is a real disease, it's not a choice, it's ALWAYS completely forgivable if a person commits suicide, ALWAYS.

You seem to have no idea of what depression is. When a person is depressed it affects their entire body in ways you can't imagine.

What level of psychological suffering must one reach before it's okay to off oneself?
Would you ask that if your child had shot him/herself in the head and you came home and had to call the ambulance while you cleaned up the blood. OR if say you came home and found your mother hanging from stairs with a noose around her head.
No you wouldn't.

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]I pray that you never have to experience the TRUE feeling that depression gives a person. Depression that genuinely requires drugs to keep a person sane, to keep a person even half happy, to stop a person from cutting their arms. Depression is a real disease, it's not a choice...[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]

Totally agree. I've been in treatment for severe depression for five years, had panic disorder tacked on last summer.

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar], it's ALWAYS completely forgivable if a person commits suicide, ALWAYS. [QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]

No, no, it's really really not.

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]You seem to have no idea of what depression is. When a person is depressed it affects their entire body in ways you can't imagine.[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]

Like not being able to sleep at night, but sleeping inappropriately throughout the day? Being so physically exhausted you can't lift your hands over your waist? Shaking so badly that people ask you if you have a neurological disorder? Losing 20 pounds in two weeks?

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]Would you ask that if your child had shot him/herself in the head and you came home and had to call the ambulance while you cleaned up the blood. OR if say you came home and found your mother hanging from stairs with a noose around her head.
No you wouldn't.[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]

I started this thread for that precise reason. When the person who has killed herself is no longer around to tell you why, you search everywhere for answers.

I didn't find my mother with a noose around her neck. The police called to tell me she was dead. Had been dead for about 5 days before anyone noticed the newspapers were piling up on the lawn. (She lived in a different state from me, so it's not like I drove by everyday). She choked to death on her own vomit after she swallowed about 20 bottles worth of pills with a chardonnay chaser.

There was a note, but it just told me and my brother how to divide up her stuff.

I'm depressed, clinically and organically. I've thought of many interesting ways to take my own life. I have stared longingly at bridges and wondered how fast my car had to go to break through the safety rail. Or if my vacuum cleaner's cord would support my weight over the ceiling fan long enough to break my neck. I saved up prescription medications and kept them on standby (like mother like daughter, I guess). I haven't done it (obviously) but in my own mind, had I chosen to suicide, I would have known why.

I have no clue why my mother did.

I've spent the last 8 months just being really angry and honestly hating her for leaving me. I'd like to move past that, but I'm stalled at the why issue. I was kind of hoping someone else who had a similar experience could share some wisdom.

In short, I have to disagree with your premise. Finding a loved one cold and dead on the floor with an empty pill bottle in their hand actually inspires asking why, because when that person is gone, they've taken the answers with them.

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]I pray that you never have to experience the TRUE feeling that depression gives a person. Depression that genuinely requires drugs to keep a person sane, to keep a person even half happy, to stop a person from cutting their arms. Depression is a real disease, it's not a choice...[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]

Totally agree. I've been in treatment for severe depression for five years, had panic disorder tacked on last summer.

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar], it's ALWAYS completely forgivable if a person commits suicide, ALWAYS. [QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]

No, no, it's really really not.

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]You seem to have no idea of what depression is. When a person is depressed it affects their entire body in ways you can't imagine.[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]

Like not being able to sleep at night, but sleeping inappropriately throughout the day? Being so physically exhausted you can't lift your hands over your waist? Shaking so badly that people ask you if you have a neurological disorder? Losing 20 pounds in two weeks?

[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]Would you ask that if your child had shot him/herself in the head and you came home and had to call the ambulance while you cleaned up the blood. OR if say you came home and found your mother hanging from stairs with a noose around her head.
No you wouldn't.[QUOTE=Nebuchadnezzaar]

I started this thread for that precise reason. When the person who has killed herself is no longer around to tell you why, you search everywhere for answers.

I didn't find my mother with a noose around her neck. The police called to tell me she was dead. Had been dead for about 5 days before anyone noticed the newspapers were piling up on the lawn. (She lived in a different state from me, so it's not like I drove by everyday). She choked to death on her own vomit after she swallowed about 20 bottles worth of pills with a chardonnay chaser.

There was a note, but it just told me and my brother how to divide up her stuff.

I'm depressed, clinically and organically. I've thought of many interesting ways to take my own life. I have stared longingly at bridges and wondered how fast my car had to go to break through the safety rail. Or if my vacuum cleaner's cord would support my weight over the ceiling fan long enough to break my neck. I saved up prescription medications and kept them on standby (like mother like daughter, I guess). I haven't done it (obviously) but in my own mind, had I chosen to suicide, I would have known why.

I have no clue why my mother did.

I've spent the last 8 months just being really angry and honestly hating her for leaving me. I'd like to move past that, but I'm stalled at the why issue. I was kind of hoping someone else who had a similar experience could share some wisdom.

In short, I have to disagree with your premise. Finding a loved one cold and dead on the floor with an empty pill bottle in their hand actually inspires asking why, because when that person is gone, they've taken the answers with them.


My mother took her life in July or 2000. Lucky for me I have sort of come to terms with why my mother killed herself, this has only been due to the help of my father and sister and some of her closest friends.

Suicide is always forgivable, if you can't forgive the person who has passed then you will never finish grieving properly. Though grieving is a process which never truely ends, it can end in terms of constant pain felt.

Soon after my died i began taking drugs(only marajuana) on a grander scale than otherwise normally would have. By 2002 I was absolutely depressed, i went to see at least four different psychologists many times always thinking they had nothing to offer me. Many times i thought about ways to dissapear, to kill myself, thinking the pain was so bad and that nothing would ever happen to change that. I used to drink so much alcohol in a night hoping that i would get poisoning and never wake up.

But I could never truely kill myself, no matter how depressed i got, probably because i was never really that bad. People can get much worse than i was and as it seems you are, you still have control over your thoughts it seems.

but you are depressed. The thing which saved me was the faact that i didn't want to end up like my mum, i didn't want to leave my loved ones behind, i didn't want to miss out on the fun things that COULD and HAVE ended up happening. I've learnt that life is a state of mind, if you think it is shit it will be shit and so on. That may sound like philosophical bullshit but it's not, it's real.

If you want to not be depressed, you have to keep telling yourself that you don't want to be depressed, that you want to get better, that you want to function properly, that you don't want to let sadness rule over you. Keep telling yourself that.

The you have to take action, be it going to see a psychologist, just to tell them your problems, it's always good to talk to a person about your problems because it takes some of the burden off of you.

I have more i'd like to write but i feel i should stop now.

remember, depression is a disease, and like any other, can be defeated.