Well think about it.

He has made clear he does not believe in a God. He is admantly against the notion of a God.

...and god does not exist.

So it is time to try to understand what is referred to as Allah considering the fact that "there is no god, (la ilaha ill-Allah), and there is only Allah."

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=691508#post691508

Instead he believes in a "system" that expresses itself in the natural laws.

What you call "physical laws" is what we can perceive of the laws of the system, through our five senses.

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=693829#post693829

What do you think?

:m:

I think Sufi should decide for himself, and if we want to know what he believes we should simply have a conversation with him.
What is the point of this thread?

I am not saying you decide for him. What I am saying is that he is de facto an atheist (see first point).

The thread is to illustrate a that he might well be an atheist, although he does not call himself that.

All I am asking is for, is for you to judge whether I am right or wrong in the conclusion that he is an atheist.

:m:

I think that what he is expressing as a belief sounds a lot like Pantheism, which is not necessarily Atheism. but can be depending on how the believer decides to interpret it.
Sufi, how do you interpret it?

I think that what he is expressing as a belief sounds a lot like Pantheism, which is not necessarily Atheism. but can be depending on how the believer decides to interpret it.
Sufi, how do you interpret it?

I think you have a point there. Concerning pantheism.

Sufi, raven is be right, which one is it?

Theism, pantheism, or atheism?

raven, am I leaving anything out?

:m:

(there goes the poll)

:m:

your an atheist bruce as you dont believe in the xain god or the hindu god, or the jewish god, need I go on. the differance between you and me is, I have one less god than you.
so your arguement, against sufi is invalid.

care to expand on that path?

:m:

your an atheist bruce as you dont believe in the xain god or the hindu god, or the jewish god, need I go on. the differance between you and me is, I have one less god than you.
so your arguement, against sufi is invalid.

No it is not, go think it over will you.

:m:

He is arguing against the accepted notion that allah is a "Deity", or as he says "sky god", in the way humans understand it. Human notions of the supernatural are of neccesity constrained by the limits of human understanding and the tendency we have of visualizing concepts that are beyond our realm of experience. Sufi says allah is everywhere AND everything this is a much harder concept for humanity to find a neat visual container for than a "god" up there unseen. So being the myopic and simplistic creatures that we are we (not me mind you ;) ) prefer the easier visual reference to the one we can't pin down even enough to form an image in our heads.
He believes in "allah" and he follows "allah" (his interpretation) so by definition he is not an atheist.

Not necessarily, path.
What I tend to believe can be viewed as a version of Pantheism.
It is the "force" (for lack of a better word) of a collective cause and effect that does have a power over us (though it is created and powered BY us as well).
This "force", although it carries with it the intention and goals of us all, does not have its own intention or cognizance, therefore it is not a God, in my opinion.
Though I can't quite call myself an Atheist per se, since I am still a bit unsure of my views overall, the system I believe in can be viewed as pantheistic and atheistic at the same time.

you believe in allah, your supreme being, so you are atheistic to all other gods are you not, as they dont exist to you.
so as I dont believe in allah either, (*) you and sufi do. therefore it unfair to criticise sufi, he's no more atheistic than you.

(*) god/gods, demons, or the devil do not exist to me.

you believe in allah, your supreme being, so you are atheistic to all other gods are you not, as they dont exist to you.
so as I dont believe in allah either, (*) you and sufi do. therefore it unfair to criticise sufi, he's no more atheistic than you.

(*) god/gods, demons, or the devil do not exist to me.

No seriously, go think it over.

:m:

you believe in allah, your supreme being, so you are atheistic to all other gods are you not, as they dont exist to you.
so as I dont believe in allah either, (*) you and sufi do. therefore it unfair to criticise sufi, he's no more atheistic than you.


Atheist is not believing in a God.
It has nothing at all to do with whose God(s) or which doctrine(s) you believe in.

Either you are a theist (belief in a God or Gods) atheist (disbelief in a God) or agnostic (do not have knowledge of whether or not a God or Gods exist).
There are many arguments over what constitutes atheist or agnostic I have read, but if you believe in ANY God you are NOT an atheist.

Thank you.

:m:

Atheist is not believing in a God.
It has nothing at all to do with whose God(s) or which doctrine(s) you believe in.

Either you are a theist (belief in a God or Gods) atheist (disbelief in a God) or agnostic (do not have knowledge of whether or not a God or Gods exist).
There are many arguments over what constitutes atheist or agnostic I have read, but if you believe in ANY God you are NOT an atheist.
no atheism is not believing in a god/gods any kind of fantasy beings or beings.
I have'nt said anybody other then me is an atheist, I said thay are atheistic to other gods.

Atheists do not believe in God/gods for same reasons that they (and theists) do not believe in leprechauns, unicorns or the Gods of other religions.

Atheists do not hate God or allah, they simply do not believe in the existence of God or allah (or anyone else, for that matter). Christians, for example, do not believe in the Hindu God Ganesh, so they are atheistic to hinduism.

Some religions think atheists somehow make a special effort not to believe in Jehovah/allah and Jesus/mohammed in particular. Nope. They are just some among thousands of gods we don't believe in, there's nothing special about them from an atheist's point of view. Atheism is not the opposite of Christianity - it's the absence of theism.

atheistic meaning, having simularitys with atheism, towards other religions.

Not necessarily, path.
What I tend to believe can be viewed as a version of Pantheism.
It is the "force" (for lack of a better word) of a collective cause and effect that does have a power over us (though it is created and powered BY us as well).
This "force", although it carries with it the intention and goals of us all, does not have its own intention or cognizance, therefore it is not a God, in my opinion.
Though I can't quite call myself an Atheist per se, since I am still a bit unsure of my views overall, the system I believe in can be viewed as pantheistic and atheistic at the same time.

Wow we go to the same church :p honestly you just about summed up my feelings/beliefs there. Don't you think what you are describing is more agnostcism? Atheists by definition don't believe that there is anything more no external force at all.

I said thay are atheistic to other gods.

Sorry.
That is not consistent with the word "atheism".
You simply have the wrong word here.
You are taking the concept of atheism and bending the definition at your convenience to suit your needs.

Atheist means simply:
"One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

It has nothing at all to do with any specific God or Gods.
Atheistic means simply:
"1. Relating to or characteristic of atheism or atheists. 2. Inclined to atheism."
In other words, atheistic is just the adjective to describe an Atheist or a characteristic of atheism. For example, "That is an atheistic point of view". It doesn't mean kind of atheist, or partially atheist or any such thing.
If you believe in a God or Gods you are not an atheist. Simple. There are no degrees or caveats.

To understand SUFI, and Sufism, which i am sure he represents, you need to chackout the Upanishads----although i haven't yet, you could for example google the two terms 'sufism upanishads' and see what you come up with and compare
brielfy, the Upanishadian doctrine assumes therer is a 'One' and a 'Many'.....the 'One' is the real, and the true reality 'behind' the 'many'--and it is what we 'must' aspire to.
The 'One' Is deified--as the all-good pure principle--and the 'Many', individuals, Nature, change, pluralism, not-believing in Upanishads, etc., is judged as 'Illusion'/Maya/evil'........
This sounds the same with SUFI's explanation of 'Allah'. thaT we are 'servants to 'it'/'Allah' and that we are 'imprisoned' in our desires--ie.` our individual preferences

Most of these belief-systems which posit a 'pure-source/goal' indoctrinate the belief that we are victims, and imprisoned in the body, (Orphism), that matter is evil (Gnosticism), that we are imprisoned in the 'wheel of birth and death' (Buddhism)..etc. All though i have separated these bel;ief systems out, their ideas are all shared by each of them

one raven: check this out http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=26679
and then there are countless sites about athiesm.

one religion, has some of the same believes, as the another.

so why do you believe, that religions dont have atheistic tendances, towards other religion.

or do they all agree with each other?.

Wow we go to the same church :p honestly you just about summed up my feelings/beliefs there. Don't you think what you are describing is more agnostcism? Atheists by definition don't believe that there is anything more no external force at all.

What I believe is loosely summed up here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=28527).
Have you read that?

1.) I think you can believe in an external force, without believing in God.

2.) The "force" I was talking about is not an external one at all. It has nothing to do with anything "supernatural" or any ethereal beings of any kind. It is nothing but the consequences of our own actions and the interaction of all things that exist. It is wholly physically consistent.

I do currently refer to myself as an agnostic, but I don't necessarily see that viewpoint as an agnostic one. I think one can choose to view that "force" as a God, or not. I think, in many ways, that the force fits quite well with many theist's descriptions/views of what "God" is.

What I believe is loosely summed up here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=28527).
Have you read that?

No I haven't read that but I will. :)

1.) I think you can believe in an external force, without believing in God.

True but Sufi believes (in my understanding) that the quran is a divine book.

2.) The "force" I was talking about is not an external one at all. It has nothing to do with anything "supernatural" or any ethereal beings of any kind. It is nothing but the consequences of our own actions and the interaction of all things that exist. It is wholly physically consistent.

I understand but you are refering to your interpretation here I was refering to my understanding of Sufi's "allah".

I do currently refer to myself as an agnostic, but I don't necessarily see that viewpoint as an agnostic one. I think one can choose to view that "force" as a God, or not. I think, in many ways, that the force fits quite well with many theist's descriptions/views of what "God" is.

Which theists? certainly not christians, muslims, or jews.

Wait here are some questions for those who voted yes

1.)Do atheists believe in any divine books?

2.)Do Sufis believe in any divine book?

Sufism is a gnostic order. It tries to understand/know God beyond the normal definitions and notions. That makes it still more mystical. A sufi cannot be an atheist. But our Sufi sounds like an atheist to me for he vehemently denies God but does not explain why the 'oneness/Allah' talks and warns like God, in Quran.


Bruce,

Someone already asked, whom you are calling theists then ? Only Muslims OR Christians/Hindus/Pagans too ?

Sufism is a gnostic order. It tries to understand/know God beyond the normal definitions and notions. That makes it still more mystical. A sufi cannot be an atheist.

I think that one_raven pinpointed it quite well under the term "pantheist"


But our Sufi sounds like an atheist to me for he vehemently denies God but does not explain why the 'oneness/Allah' talks and warns like God, in Quran.

I was just gonna say that to path. I understand sufi's idea. But it is in his abuse of the Qur'an that it all falls apart.


Bruce,

Someone already asked, whom you are calling theists then ? Only Muslims OR Christians/Hindus/Pagans too ?

Who asked? I must 've missed it. Theists are those that believe in one or more gods.

:m:

Btw, I would like to note that sufism is not monolithic. I know sufi's that would not accept sufi's ideas.

:m:

I think that one_raven pinpointed it quite well under the term "pantheist"
If sufis are just 'pantheists' they would have been executed long back by the orthodox for blasphemy. Sufi gnosticism goes beyond immanence of God. Their praise of transcendental god (who is also immanent), before and after creation, only allowed them to carry on this far. Sufi gnosticism believes in both trascendental and immanent God.

I was just gonna say that to path. I understand sufi's idea. But it is in his abuse of the Qur'an that it all falls apart.
Our sufi could be more clear, but i feel, quran has not been abused by sufis but viewing their concept of 'immanence' of god in isolation (from transcendence) makes things difficult for you.

Who asked? I must 've missed it. Theists are those that believe in one or more gods.

Well, very kind of you , on the infidels. ;)

your all discussing sufi, but only sufi knows what he is. and I certainly dont think he's an atheist, and I bet he does'nt too.

If sufis are just 'pantheists' they would have been executed long back by the orthodox for blasphemy. Sufi gnosticism goes beyond immanence of God. Their praise of transcendental god (who is also immanent), before and after creation, only allowed them to carry on this far. Sufi gnosticism believes in both trascendental and immanent God.

I was referring to (our)sufi not sufism. In fact, I swear I know one (hardcore) sufi guy that would beat (our) sufi's ideas out of his head. :eek:


Our sufi could be more clear, but i feel, quran has not been abused by sufis but viewing their concept of 'immanence' of god in isolation (from transcendence) makes things difficult for you.

Nothing of the kind. I happen to be able to read the Book. I understand his ideas (sufi's) and don't feel anything in particular towards them, but he claims they are from the Qur'an. That's fair. But then he has to show it. He has not, Instead he picks words and put illogical spins to them.

Well, very kind of you , on the infidels. ;)

I don't have a monopoly on the English language. Infidel is a word that is used by orientalists and non-Muslims, not by Muslims. I do not use the word for hindus or whomever.

:m:

One Raven:

It seems Farenheit is trying to say this:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts

Although I agree that belief in any god would render you not atheist, the point is still a good one when taken in the correct context.

Well in my personal observations of Sufism it is next to imposible to call Sufi's Muslims at all. Both the terms Sufi and Sufism and Sufi beliefs have no basis from the traditional Islamic sources of the Qur'an and Sunnah, a fact even admitted by themselves. Rather, Sufism is in essence a conglomerate consisting of extracts from a multitude of other religions with which Sufi's interacted. Since the Qur'an and Hadith are readily available, and cannot be changed, the Sufis have resorted to another trick used by other Mystics: Ta'weel, or changing the apparent meaning of a verse or hadith to a secret inner one which only a certified Sheikh could explain.The fact that they even have to call themselves "Sufi's" is unislamic because Muslims arent suppose to create divisions amongst themselves let alone practice anything called "Sufism"

[21.92] Surely this Islam is your religion, one religion (only), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me.



So if they follow the Koran?.......

Leave Sufi alone...he is who he is and you can take it or leave it. If you have learned from Sufi's post than he is your teacher. If he has learned from yours than he is your student. If you are irked by his posts on a debate forum than the conflict lies within you as opposed to him. But at every angle you look at it from for you to guess or determine Sufi's religious persuasion (or lack of) is silly. If you want to know ask him. If he doesn't want to answer get over it.

Leave Sufi alone...he is who he is and you can take it or leave it. If you have learned from Sufi's post than he is your teacher. If he has learned from yours than he is your student. If you are irked by his posts on a debate forum than the conflict lies within you as opposed to him. But at every angle you look at it from for you to guess or determine Sufi's religious persuasion (or lack of) is silly. If you want to know ask him. If he doesn't want to answer get over it.



Leave me alone if I wanna challenge Sufi :D but seriously I dont challenge anyone's atheist or Christian view on these boards however when one claims to be a Muslim then I have every right to challege their views if what they are saying is unislamic. Even if Sufi was preaching Sufism without the Islamic aspect to it I wouldnt have a problem with it.....but when he starts preaching about the Prophet (pbuh) and what his message was the it becomes my duty as a muslim to correct his mistakes.....Sorry if you dont believe in anything enough to fight to defend it

I was referring to (our)sufi not sufism.
You have commented/corrected on my post on sufism, not (our) sufi.

I don't have a monopoly on the English language. Infidel is a word that is used by orientalists and non-Muslims, not by Muslims. I do not use the word for hindus or whomever.
I find the term 'kafir' rather obscene so i used the term 'infidel'.

I find the term 'kafir' rather obscene so i used the term 'infidel'.

It could be we have a different understanding of the term or maybe we don't :)

:m:

Yes, he is an atheist, but it's a special kind of atheism that is also the highest form of understanding about God, that no belief can contain God, that you are an aspect of God, and all beliefs amount to turning away from that awareness. If everything and every action was already holy, what's the use of praying? ...what's the point of a separate ideology?

Sufi is going to hell.

Sufi is going to hell.

Don't we just love to pass judgement. Are you Allah now all of the sudden?
Or are you just one of those believers that likes to cast the first stone. Be first in line so you don't miss any of the action :rolleyes:

Don't we love to miss the possibility of sarcasm.

But then, lower intelligences are incapable of good humor.

Don't we love to miss the possibility of sarcasm.

If M16 was kidding he can say so but somehow I doubt he was since if I am not mistaken his doctrine tells him that's what will happen


But then, lower intelligences are incapable of good humor.

Incapable of good humor or incapable of understanding good humor? What exactly are you trying to say here Naomi? Try harder

you muslims, what is your point in this?

bruce wayne
you and sufi, both are muslims. sufi says he believes in allah, mohammed and he practices islam. i would not think that another muslim, either a mullah or a sufi would accept atheism more than you do.

but in this, you are just backbiting another muslim in the holy month of ramadhan, whereas you are supossed to be fasting now.

you know, backbiting is stricly forbidden in islam and it is said to be equal to the act of eating the raw flesh of your deceased brother. eating the raw flesh of your dead brother while fasting will leave you with nothing but with a wasted hunger only.
So why don't you question your muslimism instead of others?

surrenderer,
it may be difficult for you to understand others and you may not accept them. muslims can have different ideas. but being hostile toward the other muslims is not an allowed attitude in the religion of peace, is it?

haven't you ever heard that allah is everywhere? if not, ask any muslim around you!

to me, sufi ideas are higher understanding of islam which cannot be appreciated by simple minded masses, naturally.

i am new to this forum and i have been lurking for some time. i have learned a lot from the posts of sufi and of some other wise guys. i can see many forum members share sufis' ideas and think about them. i expect you to join them and discuss about i d e a s rahther than p e r s o n s to accuse of..........

you muslims, what is your point in this?

I started the thread. My point is in the first question and posts.


bruce wayne
you and sufi, both are muslims.

Muslims is not something that you just call yourself with. The term has content. Yet I have never accused him of not being a Muslim before I do not want to jump to conclusions. To the contrary I would like, as Muslims do, to resort to the Book, to clarify our divergence. Look up my reactions to him, you will see that that is my point in replying to him.

So,

sufi says he believes in allah, mohammed and he practices islam. i would not think that another muslim, either a mullah or a sufi would accept atheism more than you do.

I have not simply stated that he is an atheist. I argue why. One_raven then gave me an answer, that could fit better than my own conclusion and from him/her I became familiar with the word pantheism in the meaning it has in this thread.

but in this, you are just backbiting another muslim in the holy month of ramadhan, whereas you are supossed to be fasting now.

you know, backbiting is stricly forbidden in islam and it is said to be equal to the act of eating the raw flesh of your deceased brother. eating the raw flesh of your dead brother while fasting will leave you with nothing but with a wasted hunger only.

This is not backbiting. Sufi can read this (and does I guess). So nothing in his back. Also I am not just throwing allegations, I backed it up by argument.

So why don't you question your muslimism instead of others?

To quote someone: "very revealing, Doomdayx, very revealing" lol
But being a being with a mind, I cannot but reflect on it (ISLAM).

:m:

surrenderer,
it may be difficult for you to understand others and you may not accept them. muslims can have different ideas. but being hostile toward the other muslims is not an allowed attitude in the religion of peace, is it?

[QUOTE=Doomdayx]muslims can have different ideas.

Not about certain things. If a Muslim says there is no prayer in Islam then he is not a Muslim. Certainly ignorantly speaking of Allah would be a greater offence.

haven't you ever heard that allah is everywhere? if not, ask any muslim around you!

Since you want to learn from wise men concider this a lesson ;)

Where is that written. Muslims recognise only the Qur'an and Sunna as valid revelation. Could you be so kind to provide us with proof from either.

to me, sufi ideas are higher understanding of islam which cannot be appreciated by simple minded masses, naturally.

Granted. You may believe whathever you want. Yet I would think that a religion for mankind would be accessible for all mankind. Even those simple minded masses, which you seem to deem inferior.

i am new to this forum and i have been lurking for some time. i have learned a lot from the posts of sufi and of some other wise guys. i can see many forum members share sufis' ideas and think about them. i expect you to join them and discuss about i d e a s rahther than p e r s o n s to accuse of..........

Feel free to join any of the running discussion. You will see that has been posted was solid argumentation.

:m:

I have not simply stated that he is an atheist. I argue why.

bruce wayne, you are playing with words here. in islam you are not allowed to call anyone atheist or infidel or disbeliever unless they accept.

[QUOTE]This is not backbiting. Sufi can read this (and does I guess). So nothing in his back. Also I am not just throwing allegations, I backed it up by argument.

you did not ask sufi himself particulalrly if he is an atheist, did you??? so, yours is a simple backbiting. otherwise, you are trying to throw allegations and slanderings on sufi. so, be careful, if you are not able to know the difference. this is not either accepted in the religion of peace, or is it?

Look up my reactions to him, you will see that that is my point in replying to him.

i looked them up. but why don't you?
most of your reactions simply seem as hostile reactions toward another muslim with no sign of respect. this is a shame if not a sin.

bruce wayne, you are playing with words here. in islam you are not allowed to call anyone atheist or infidel or disbeliever unless they accept.

Since you seem to know so much about Islam. If some says there is no God, do you concider him a Muslim? And what if he says that we are not separate from Allah? I said that the impications of his words amount to being an atheist. I did not out say it out of the blue. As you must be aware I have since leaned to pantheist.

you did not ask sufi himself particulalrly if he is an atheist, did you??? so, yours is a simple backbiting. otherwise, you are trying to throw allegations and slanderings on sufi. so, be careful, if you are not able to know the difference. this is not either accepted in the religion of peace, or is it?

I haven't banned him before the thread, have I? He can respond. He can refute. And I am starting to think he is. Doomdayx, is it true that you only started posting in this thread, to defend sufi? ;)

i looked them up. but why don't you?
most of your reactions simply seem as hostile reactions toward another muslim with no sign of respect. this is a shame if not a sin.

lol I wrote them. Dude read them from the start and you ll see the evolution. If you are not sufi (and I give you the benefit of the doubt), start over here:

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38117

Also, they are full of valid argumentation, aren't they? ;) I don't see you deny that. And I told you before, go and refute them.

:m:

Not about certain things. If a Muslim says there is no prayer in Islam then he is not a Muslim. Certainly ignorantly speaking of Allah would be a greater offence.

where did you read your above allegations? on the contrary, sufi listed a number of lessons from the qur'an telling that everyone of us will only receive the reward of our deeds in the afterlife. i have also read the book sufi suggested. any reader can see that the explanations about allah there is more valid than your separate god insertion.

Since you want to learn from wise men concider this a lesson ;)

Where is that written. Muslims recognise only the Qur'an and Sunna as valid revelation. Could you be so kind to provide us with proof from either.

I am not going to argue with you about it but read these and consider that you maybe missing some lessons from the qur'an:

002.115
To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

057.003
HHe is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things.

I haven't banned him before the thread, have I? He can respond. He can refute. And I am starting to think he is. Doomdayx, is it true that you only started posting in this thread, to defend sufi? ;)



bruce wayne, no offence! why do you consider it as a defence......? i may or may not agree with someone else's ideas. but i just tired to remind you of the forbidden act of backbiting and the holy month of ramadhan at the beginning. but as i see you are not concerned about it at all, but rather you now try to start a battle over me instead of discussing about the matter.
you said you did not throw allegations on sufi(btw, you can see the truth by having a look at your vote), i believe many muslims would keep away from such actions as yours and would do the same for another muslim. i cannot see any wrong in offering other muslims to keep away from commiting sin. it is also my belief that most muslims would welcome sufi's ideas.

Reading over your posts Ddayx reminds me one of the specific things I like about sufi's ideas, namely he doesn't put people into groups like unbelievers, and believers, muslim and kafir, saved and damned. While it seems like those who proclaim to be the true faithful can't seem to escape putting people into groups.

bruce wayne, no offence! why do you consider it as a defence......? i may or may not agree with someone else's ideas. but i just tired to remind you of the forbidden act of backbiting and the holy month of ramadhan at the beginning. but as i see you are not concerned about it at all, but rather you now try to start a battle over me instead of discussing about the matter.
you said you did not throw allegations on sufi(btw, you can see the truth by having a look at your vote), i believe many muslims would keep away from such actions as yours and would do the same for another muslim. i cannot see any wrong in offering other muslims to keep away from commiting sin. it is also my belief that most muslims would welcome sufi's ideas.




I do agree that for one muslim to call another muslim an "unbeliever" is indeed a seroius accusation.......but a much worse one is to be a muslim and to mislead people. Although I have no personal problems with our "Sufi" in these boards his religion is not that of Islam. Islam doesnt have saints(as Sufi's do) Islam doesnt claim to have higher knowledge that even the Prophet(pbuh) didnt have(as Sufi's do) the very fact that they seperate themselves from "regular" muslims itself is against the Koran:

[42.13] He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently


Sufism is popular because you can be a Buddist or a Hindu or whatever else you wanna be and also be an Sufi....but that is unIslamic also:


"Truly, the religion in the Sight of Allah is Islam..." [2: 19].



Notice when Sufi would post how many times he quoted the Koran compared to how many times he quoted his propoganda books? Which should he depend on more?(goes back to that saint thing i was talking about) Sufism is a blend of various thoughts and philosophies. By putting in a few traces of Islamic teachings with it, the Sufi thinkers attempted to sanctify their doctrines and demonstrate its conformity to Islam Muslims believe that the Prophet (s.a.w.s) is the last of the Prophets, with whom the line of Prophethood is closed. Therefore, anyone who claims to be a prophet or a recipient of Divine revelation is an imposter and an heretic. And besides, it sounds quite eerie for a young man to spend long hours in cemetries "communing with the spirits of the dead." The Prophet (s.a.w.s) was told by Allah: meaning, "And you cannot make those who are in graves to hear. "Indeed, communion of this nature could very well lead to a theory such as pantheism.(as been stated earlier)Sufi's also believe that everything is God but, if nothing exists in reality but God, then every animal, regardless of its family, is in reality god also. And since all existing things have one essence, wine is nothing but water, and every forbidden (haram) thing is lawful or (halal)........Sorry thats not Islam dude :m:

You are deeply trapped in semantics, surrenderer.


I do agree that for one muslim to call another muslim an "unbeliever" is indeed a seroius accusation.......but a much worse one is to be a muslim and to mislead people.
Who is misleading or being misled is still being contested by both of you. So, please don't assume a self-righteous position by default.

Although I have no personal problems with our "Sufi" in these boards his religion is not that of Islam. Islam doesnt have saints(as Sufi's do) Islam doesnt claim to have higher knowledge that even the Prophet(pbuh) didnt have(as Sufi's do)
The very fact the prophet is a messanger of God tells that God does not communicate with masses when they are yet not capable of recieving Him. If He finds someone suitable & capable nothing can prevent Him to reveal the truth.
the very fact that they seperate themselves from "regular" muslims itself is against the Koran:

[42.13] He has made plain to you of the religion what He enjoined upon Nuh and that which We have revealed to you and that which We enjoined upon Ibrahim and Musa and Isa that keep to obedience and be not divided therein; hard to the unbelievers is that which you call them to; Allah chooses for Himself whom He pleases, and guides to Himself him who turns (to Him), frequently

So there is no restriction on Allah as to whom He has to bestow His guidance. Let Him do that to whomsoever He is pleased with.

Sufism is popular because you can be a Buddist or a Hindu or whatever else you wanna be and also be an Sufi
If a buddhist or hindu says sahada then they are no more 'kafirs', right?

....but that is unIslamic also:


"Truly, the religion in the Sight of Allah is Islam..." [2: 19].
It sounds like "Truly, the religion in the Sight of Allah is Submission..."

Therefore, anyone who claims to be a prophet or a recipient of Divine revelation is an imposter and an heretic.
While the sufi saints did not claim to be prophets, how can you be so sure that Allah does not reveal to anyone whom He is pleased with ?
And besides, it sounds quite eerie for a young man to spend long hours in cemetries "communing with the spirits of the dead." The Prophet (s.a.w.s) was told by Allah: meaning, "And you cannot make those who are in graves to hear. "
You mean the muslims visiting the graves of the sufi saints ? I remember reading that the prophet knows immediately when his name is pronounced with PUBH or otherwise. May be 'you' cannot make them to hear but Allah can make them to hear. ;)

Indeed, communion of this nature could very well lead to a theory such as pantheism.(as been stated earlier)Sufi's also believe that everything is God but, if nothing exists in reality but God, then every animal, regardless of its family, is in reality god also. And since all existing things have one essence, wine is nothing but water, and every forbidden (haram) thing is lawful or (halal)........Sorry thats not Islam dude :m:
That is not sufism either, surrenderer. The immanence of God is to be 'realised' by the will of God, who is transcendental too, to lift the veil that hides the truth. Till then they are mere empty words to say wine and water are God.

Who is misleading or being misled is still being contested by both of you. So, please don't assume a self-righteous position by default.


Umm.....I use the Koran to back up EVERYTHING I say unlike Sufi's who claim to have knowledge only reveled to them....Now that being said Who's being self-righteous again? ;)


The very fact the prophet is a messanger of God tells that God does not communicate with masses when they are yet not capable of recieving Him.


Very true....but remember God also said that Muhamaad(pbuh) was the "seal of the prophets" not the Sufi Saints that came later


If a buddhist or hindu says sahada then they are no more 'kafirs', right?

Well if a Hindu says the Shahada then they keep worshiping idols(or whatever) then of course they arent a muslim(in my opinion)


It sounds like "Truly, the religion in the Sight of Allah is Submission..."

Definatly true


While the sufi saints did not claim to be prophets, how can you be so sure that Allah does not reveal to anyone whom He is pleased with ?



Sufi Saints claim knowledge that nobody else knows. How is that different than a Prophet?But please tell me in their defense....If they are Muslims then why call themselves Sufi's? Why create a sub-religion called Sufism? Why claim knowledge that the Prophet(pbuh) didnt have? This is what is confusing to me :confused:

Umm.....I use the Koran to back up EVERYTHING I say unlike Sufi's who claim to have knowledge only reveled to them....Now that being said Who's being self-righteous again? ;)
Obviously, the issue remains as sufi does not accept your interpretation of quran.

Very true....but remember God also said that Muhamaad(pbuh) was the "seal of the prophets" not the Sufi Saints that came later
They too did not claim prophethood.

Well if a Hindu says the Shahada then they keep worshiping idols(or whatever) then of course they arent a muslim(in my opinion)
Ironically, sufis were responsible for majority of the conversions to islam in indian sub-continent.

Sufi Saints claim knowledge that nobody else knows. How is that different than a Prophet?
May be a prophet had a grand mission to accomplish.

If they are Muslims then why call themselves Sufi's? Why create a sub-religion called Sufism?
The sufi saints did not call themselves sufis, nor they created sub-religion as such.
Why claim knowledge that the Prophet(pbuh) didnt have?
Did they claim what they know was not known to the Prophet ? In fact they claim their spritual order starting from the Prophet down to their master.

Obviously, the issue remains as sufi does not accept your interpretation of quran.

Sufi's dont accept ALOT of what the Koran says and what doesnt fit their defination of Islam they say their Sufi Masters have some secret interpetation


They too did not claim prophethood.

They dont use the word prophet but look at what they do and say and tell me they dont think that they are



May be a prophet had a grand mission to accomplish.


The Prophet(pbuh) told us his mission...it wasnt some secret James Bond type espionage




The sufi saints did not call themselves sufis, nor they created sub-religion as such.


You are wrong here sir



Did they claim what they know was not known to the Prophet ? In fact they claim their spritual order starting from the Prophet down to their master.[/QUOTE]



The word “Sufism” was not known at the time of the Messenger or the Sahaabah (companions) or the Taabi’een (Companions of the Companions of the Prophet). It arose at the time when a group of ascetics who wore wool (“soof”) emerged, and this name was given to them. It was also said that the name was taken from the word “soofiya” (“sophia”) which means “wisdom” in Greek. The word is not derived from al-safa’ (“purity”) as some of them claim, because the adjective derived from safa’ is safaa’i, not soofi (sufi). The emergence of this new name and the group to whom it is applied exacerbated the divisions among Muslims.

You asked a question :
Sufi Saints claim knowledge that nobody else knows. How is that different than a Prophet?
I answered :
May be a prophet had a grand mission to accomplish.
You say now :
The Prophet(pbuh) told us his mission...it wasnt some secret James Bond type espionage

If you agree that there is a difference between a prophet and a saint, then the sufi saints were not claiming prophethood.

The sufi saints did not call themselves sufis, nor they created sub-religion as such.
You are wrong here sir
May be, care to prove ?


The word “Sufism” was not known at the time of the Messenger or the Sahaabah (companions) or the Taabi’een (Companions of the Companions of the Prophet). It arose at the time when a group of ascetics who wore wool (“soof”) emerged, and this name was given to them. It was also said that the name was taken from the word “soofiya” (“sophia”) which means “wisdom” in Greek. The word is not derived from al-safa’ (“purity”) as some of them claim, because the adjective derived from safa’ is safaa’i, not soofi (sufi). The emergence of this new name and the group to whom it is applied exacerbated the divisions among Muslims.
You cannot expect the mentioning of 'sufi' in quran / haddith to accept them as muslims. It is strange you talk about division among muslims because of sufis. When the whole of Arab world was undergoing relentless never ending bloody wars among themselves (ummayads vs abbasids, sunnis vs shias, fatimids vs ummayads/abbasids, khwarijites vs other muslims etc, and later the mongol invasion that further weakend the muslim world that was already divided on the base of clans, sects etc) the sufis emerged to emphasize universal brotherhood among fellow humans. Hardly i find them dividing muslims then and now.

Edit : i don't know why the smilies appear in the quote.

where did you read your above allegations?

This was a response to you saying you cannot call someone an atheist. AS much as it shouldn't be done. There are red lines.

on the contrary, sufi listed a number of lessons from the qur'an telling that everyone of us will only receive the reward of our deeds in the afterlife.

This is irrelevant to what I wrote. And even in this case. He says that it would be without standing to be judged before a God separate from you.

AR-RAD (THE THUNDER)

013.006
YUSUFALI: They ask thee to hasten on the evil in preference to the good: Yet have come to pass, before them, (many) exemplary punishments! But verily thy Lord is full of forgiveness for mankind for their wrong-doing, and verily thy Lord is (also) strict in punishment.

PICKTHAL: And they bid thee hasten on the evil rather than the good, when exemplary punishments have indeed occurred before them. But lo! thy Lord is rich in pardon for mankind despite their wrong, and lo! thy Lord is strong in punishment.

SHAKIR: And they ask you to hasten on the evil before the good, and indeed there have been exemplary punishments before them; and most surely your Lord is the Lord of forgiveness to people, notwithstanding their injustice; and most surely your Lord is severe in requiting (evil).

i have also read the book sufi suggested. any reader can see that the explanations about allah there is more valid than your separate god insertion.

ANy reader? l.o.l Why not say that you think that. And that won't eb a problem with me. But, now you speak for ALL readers (?)

I am not going to argue with you about it...

Well, how convenient..

but read these and consider that you maybe missing some lessons from the qur'an:

002.115
To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

057.003
HHe is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things.

Thx,

:m:

bruce wayne, no offence! why do you consider it as a defence......? i may or may not agree with someone else's ideas. but i just tired to remind you of the forbidden act of backbiting and the holy month of ramadhan at the beginning.

And I told you why I don't think I am doing that. I did not try to start a battle, I just expressed the fact that he didn't show up and that you came out of the blue to defend him (your alter-ego?) and that you follow the same routine as he does: express outrage, get defensive and evade content discussion.

but as i see you are not concerned about it at all, but rather you now try to start a battle over me instead of discussing about the matter.

[QUOTE=Doomdayx]you said you did not throw allegations on sufi(btw, you can see the truth by having a look at your vote), i believe many muslims would keep away from such actions as yours and would do the same for another muslim.[QUOTE=Doomdayx]

You know this is getting quite repetitious. Look up the answer in previous posts.

[QUOTE=Doomdayx]i cannot see any wrong in offering other muslims to keep away from commiting sin.

And I thank you for doing it, I simply don't agree.

it is also my belief that most muslims would welcome sufi's ideas.

Not from where I see it. But as I already said, you are free to believe whatever you wish.

:m:

If you agree that there is a difference between a prophet and a saint, then the sufi saints were not claiming prophethood


Stop playing with words.....Prophets are different than you or me......Sufi saints claim to have this same knowledge(sometimes more so) that the Prophets had



May be, care to prove ?


I dont know how much you know of Sufi history( i used to study it) but During the sixth century AH, many Sufis who have started their own Turuqh claimed that they were direct descendants of the Messenger of Allah. They did so in order to gain the support and loyalty of the common-folk, so they will be receptive to the Sufi methodology. Thus, many people embraced the Sufi Turuqh, such as the Turuqh of some infamous Sufi teachers as Ar-Rifa'i in Iraq, and Al-Badawi and Ash-Shathili in Egypt. Many other Sufi Turuqh then appeared and spread throughout the Muslim World. - With regards to Allah: The Sufis have different types of belief in Allah. Al-'Hallaj and those who followed his misguided way, believed in incarnation and that Allah's Soul appears in all types of shapes, even animals, such as cows, pigs, donkeys, etc. Allah is praised from the Kufr and Shirk that the disbelievers attribute unto Him. Abu Yazid Al-Bustami, a renowned Sufi teacher said, "Allah once ascended me (meaning to Him!) and raised me between His Hands, and then said to me, 'O Abu Yazid! My creation like to gaze at you.' So I said, 'Bestow Your Oneness unto me, and make me wear Your Selfishness, so that when Your creation see me, they will say, 'We have seen You (meaning Allah),' so You will be him (meaning 1), while I will not be here! "' [Al Luma', p. 461]. (look him up if you dont believe me) :m:

Who the hel is sufi?!

The very fact the prophet is a messanger of God tells that God does not communicate with masses when they are yet not capable of recieving Him. If He finds someone suitable & capable nothing can prevent Him to reveal the truth.

Nothing can prevent Allah from doing what he wills. Yet that is not the issue here. As Allah communicated through Mohammed -peace be upon him-, He said:

AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)

005.003

YUSUFALI: Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. [B]This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion[B]; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

This means that as this verse was revealed, Islam was complete. So one can claim a better understanding of Islam (, which he has to back up) but cannot say Allah told him how to do it better.

While the sufi saints did not claim to be prophets, how can you be so sure that Allah does not reveal to anyone whom He is pleased with ?

Here it seres to know more of Islam. The word prophet is not accurate in English. It covers two Arabic words: "Rassul" and "Nabi". The first means messenger, the second would prophet. This means we have tos eparate between prophet and messenger. A prophet would be someone that has received revelation. A messenger is someone has received AND that has to spread it. A messenger is a prophet and a prophet is not necessarily a messenger.

AL-AHZAB (THE CLANS, THE COALITION,THE COMBINED FORCES)
033.040
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

PICKTHAL: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

SHAKIR: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.


There is then no one prophet, no one that receives revelation after the prophet. Also it is not needed since religion has been perfected.

My concern however is not with Sufism, for I do no claim that my knowledge encompasses it. Although I heard rather disreputable things about it, I am sure it is not monolithic, certainly if viewed in a historical perspective. It is not even what sufi might or not think, for that is his concern. But what care about is the foundation of his thoughts on the Qur’an and the fact that it is absurd, if we were to view it with logic and if we took the actual words in perspective.

A last thought; this is a site that advocates “tasawuf” which is the original term. Yet this is what they say about sufi’s thoughts, no... ahmed baki’s thoughts.


http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/basic_whereisgod.htm#conc

Many a ayat in the Quran are used by the liars and heretics to prove their claim that Allah is everywhere. Among them are the verses pointing to Allah's closeness to His Creation to the point of being closer than the jugular vein.



This shows that “Sufism” is not represented by our sufi. Also contrary to our sufi, they go through extensive effort to back up their claims.

:m:

Stop playing with words.....Prophets are different than you or me......Sufi saints claim to have this same knowledge(sometimes more so) that the Prophets had

Apart from your aparent irritation on hearing what you don't want to hear ;

Let me ask you, what is so evil about it that you or me or the sufi saints sharing the same knowledge of Prophet(s)? If a religion so perfect does not raise its adherents to the level of its role models - the prophets, then what is the meaning for its perfection ?

And, you and me and more know today about theory of relativity which the prophet(s) were most probably blissfully unaware of OR too early to be exposed. Does not that make you and me better than prophet(s) in respect of material knowledge ? Do you believe porphet(s) have knowledge unattainable by others ? Do you believe prophet(s) were not willing to share their knowledge to the genuines ?



I dont know how much you know of Sufi history( i used to study it) but During the sixth century AH, many Sufis who have started their own Turuqh claimed that they were direct descendants of the Messenger of Allah. They did so in order to gain the support and loyalty of the common-folk, so they will be receptive to the Sufi methodology. Thus, many people embraced the Sufi Turuqh, such as the Turuqh of some infamous Sufi teachers as Ar-Rifa'i in Iraq, and Al-Badawi and Ash-Shathili in Egypt. Many other Sufi Turuqh then appeared and spread throughout the Muslim World. - With regards to Allah: The Sufis have different types of belief in Allah.
I think the last sentence should help differentiate who is genuine who is fake among the sufis.

Al-'Hallaj and those who followed his misguided way, believed in incarnation and that Allah's Soul appears in all types of shapes, even animals, such as cows, pigs, donkeys, etc. Allah is praised from the Kufr and Shirk that the disbelievers attribute unto Him.
Too bad he did not bother that his murderers also would be 'Allah'. He lost his 'self' and whatever remained was 'Allah' including his killers and what was killed.

Abu Yazid Al-Bustami, a renowned Sufi teacher said, "Allah once ascended me (meaning to Him!) and raised me between His Hands, and then said to me, 'O Abu Yazid! My creation like to gaze at you.' So I said, 'Bestow Your Oneness unto me, and make me wear Your Selfishness, so that when Your creation see me, they will say, 'We have seen You (meaning Allah),' so You will be him (meaning 1), while I will not be here! "' [Al Luma', p. 461]. (look him up if you dont believe me) :m:
I don't know what happened to this 'looser' (i mean who lost his 'self'/identity :D ). Did he share the fate of poor Al-hallaj ?

Nothing can prevent Allah from doing what he wills. Yet that is not the issue here. As Allah communicated through Mohammed -peace be upon him-, He said:

AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)

005.003

YUSUFALI: Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. [B]This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion[B]; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I remember discussing the ayat 5.3 in another thread.
- http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=694210#post694210

This means that as this verse was revealed, Islam was complete. So one can claim a better understanding of Islam (, which he has to back up) but cannot say Allah told him how to do it better.

If "Islam" is the arabic word for "Submission", then i presume submission is the first and fundamental criteria for muslims to proceed in the way of Allah;
The way is perfect and if the traveller has dedication then Allah would guide him as He wishes.

Here it seres to know more of Islam. The word prophet is not accurate in English. It covers two Arabic words: "Rassul" and "Nabi". The first means messenger, the second would prophet. This means we have tos eparate between prophet and messenger. A prophet would be someone that has received revelation. A messenger is someone has received AND that has to spread it. A messenger is a prophet and a prophet is not necessarily a messenger.

AL-AHZAB (THE CLANS, THE COALITION,THE COMBINED FORCES)
033.040
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

PICKTHAL: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

SHAKIR: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.


There is then no one prophet, no one that receives revelation after the prophet. Also it is not needed since religion has been perfected.

Good points. I understand that the prophet is the best among muslims. I view religion is a way not an end itself. Unless you know the Prophet completely it is difficult to say whether someone is equalling him or closely trailing him on this way. Sometimes the later situation might be mistaken for the first one. The Sufi Saints might be mistaken as challenging the Prophet.

Don't we just love to pass judgement. Are you Allah now all of the sudden?
Or are you just one of those believers that likes to cast the first stone. Be first in line so you don't miss any of the action :rolleyes:

Hey, don't talk to me.

Hey, don't talk to me.
Deal with it boy you are on a public forum get over yourself and don't whine when somebody calls you on crap you post.

Go beyond the namings, move past the appearances and forget about labellings! You cannot know a painter through seeing a few of his paints. Instead, spend your time discussing about and trying to understand what Sufi is saying! :)

I need another really long post, pointing out nothing new.
so sufi what are you saying.

I need another really long post, pointing out nothing new.
so sufi what are you saying.

Pls, consider reading my threads and previous posts; also some of the posts above, they are really enlightening written friendly to explain the truth against the allegations thrown by muslims with mullah understanding of Islam :D who rejects the deep spiritual understanding of Islam which is known as Sufi understanding.

Atheist is probably confused with "khaneef" in Islam. Before his Nubuwwah Mohammed (pbuh) with about a dozen friends were khaneefs in their time, because they did not accept a God/Gods their tribe accepted and worshipped... They were accused of not believing and worshipping God/Gods that common people believed and worshipped WITHOUT QUESTIONING. However, going one step ahead, Mohammed (pbuh) and his friends sought to understand the Universal Creator beyond the accepted notion of deity by the masses in their time.

We must make at least serious investigations about all these matters to know the truth. Judging matters on peoples' hearsay or reading a book or two will not be sufficient.

to reject the deep spiritual understanding of Islam which is known as Sufi understanding



Sufi please explain as a Muslim what this means......If indeed your "sect" doesnt divide itself from other Muslims then what is "Sufi understanding"? and how does it differ from any other muslim's understanding? Feel free to use the Koran to back up what you mean ;)

Sufi please explain as a Muslim what this means......If indeed your "sect" doesnt divide itself from other Muslims then what is "Sufi understanding"? and how does it differ from any other muslim's understanding? Feel free to use the Koran to back up what you mean ;)

I do not know my "sect"(?) at all and also how it "divides"(?) "itself"(?) from other muslims! It was all your words since the beginning, not mine... You are supposed to explain the anwers to us, for it was your way to divide and throw allegations! :D

Sufism can be considered as a sect much as Mullahism can be so.

Sufism is a "quality" in the same way as Spiritualism or Mysticism is, it is a way of understanding! I don't think this is so difficult to understand, only a few words, but it maybe difficult to listen because of prejudice.

By the way, pls tell us if "Mullahism" your sect? :D

Sufi you said:

who rejects the deep spiritual understanding of Islam which is known as Sufi understanding.


I am calling you out to explain what this means.....now you say



I do not know my "sect"(?) at all and also how it "divides"(?) "itself"(?) from other muslims

I think you do so much cutting and pasting you forget what you posted



It was all your words since the beginning, not mine...


Obviously not true




You are supposed to explain the anwers to us, for it was your way to divide and throw allegations


Not dividing only asking you th explain what is Sufi understanding and how it differs from any other muslims understanding.....I mean we read the same Koran right? we live by the example set by the same Nabi's and Rasul's right?

]




Sufism can be considered as a sect much as Mullahism can be so.


Fair enough



Sufism is a "quality" in the same way as Spiritualism or Mysticism is, it is a way of understanding!


Was the Koran not Spirtual enough for you allready? Remeber the Koran says:


"The Monasticism which they invented for themselves; We did not prescribe it for them." Qur'an 57:27



I don't think this is so difficult to understand, only a few words, but it maybe difficult to listen because of prejudice.


No it is difficult to listen to because the Koran says:

6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with
you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform
them of everything they had done.



By the way, pls tell us if "Mullahism" your sect?



Nope nor have I given you a reason to think that it ever was ;)

surenderer,
you obviously cannot see the difference between sufi muslims' understanding and mullah's understanding! there is no such thing as a mullahism sect! neither sufism nor mullahism is a sect! they are simply ways of interpreting the qur'an.
said is sufi muslims to those who are for unity, who give unifying messages, who strive to embrace all muslims and all humans, based of their interpretation of the qur'an.
mullahs are, however said to those who are more concerned with separations and divisions and thus who reject the the deep spiritual meanings the mystics deduce from the lessons of the qur'an.
it is obvious that in the eyes of sufi your understanding falls in the category of mullah understanding of islam.

surenderer,
you obviously cannot see the difference between sufi muslims' understanding and mullah's understanding! there is no such thing as a mullahism sect! neither sufism nor mullahism is a sect! they are simply ways of interpreting the qur'an.
said is sufi muslims to those who are for unity, who give unifying messages, who strive to embrace all muslims and all humans, based of their interpretation of the qur'an.
mullahs are, however said to those who are more concerned with separations and divisions and thus who reject the the deep spiritual meanings the mystics deduce from the lessons of the qur'an.
it is obvious that in the eyes of sufi your understanding falls in the category of mullah understanding of islam.



Sorry Doom but when one interpets the Koran as meaning "their is no God" then they arent muslims. I've even heard Sufi call himself a Mohammaden on this board before. Listen to what you say....


there is no such thing as a mullahism sect! neither sufism nor mullahism is a sect!


then you say:


it is obvious that in the eyes of sufi your understanding falls in the category of mullah understanding of islam


So what you are saying is that Sufi's have some deep mystical understanding of the Koran that other muslims dont have that is a sect my friend and making divisions....I have posted where the Koran (remember that? the book that muslims are suppose to follow?) says this is wrong yet you still chose to ignore it? Thats not Islamic behavior....Feel free to use the Koran to show me where I am wrong as I have done you

Sorry Doom but when one interpets the Koran as meaning "their is no God" then they arent muslims.


Sorry to butt in

I don't get from sufi that he is saying there is no god my understanding is that he is saying god is everything and everywhere not a supernatural being that is separate from creation.
I am not trying to claim anyone is correct here so don't flame me :p .

just my 2 cents, carry on.

Sorry Doom but when one interpets the Koran as meaning "their is no God" then they arent muslims.

boy! don't you read sufi himself, he says he believes in what he understands of allah as referred to in the qur'an. you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception of "deity" to be a muslim. no, one does not!
i am suspicious if you are doing it delibaretely despite you know of it. but in this case, what kind of muslimism is it that you fail to obey the very significant basic moral principles that islam requires! remember the hadith, a very well known principle among muslims, that if someone dares to accuse his religious brother of qufr (blasphemy, atheism, etc), one of these two will certainly turn to blasphemy because of this. if the other one is not really a qafeer, then the word of the accuser will turn to himself and make him so.
why don't you muslims in this board take care? or are you not aware of them yet?

I've even heard Sufi call himself a Mohammaden on this board before.

what is wrong with being mohammedan? do you not follow mohammed? you seem you judge anything out of your knowledge as faulty!

So what you are saying is that Sufi's have some deep mystical understanding of the Koran that other muslims dont have

don't you see that at all? we all have different qualities and different levels of penetration into meanings from each other. why shouldn't some muslims have deeper understandings than others?

that is a sect my friend

no, this is not a sect, but this is a fact. it is a reality no matter if we like it or not! we all have different levels of understandings from each other.
it is also very interesting that you insist on sufis having a sect despite his disallowance. why are you so desirous to prevail upon another person to define himself as you define?

that is a sect my friend and making divisions...

as far as i understand, sufi believes in the undivided wholeness of us all. do you understand that? if yes, how come then you talk about someone's being divisive while he does not allow divisions? but as you accuse someone of something and try to put him beyond a line you draw, then it is you who is creating the division.
a muslim should not seek for reasons to support his ego's desire to create divisions, but try harder to find commonalities to strenghten our unity for the sake of the religion of unity.

boy! don't you read sufi himself, he says he believes in what he understands of allah as referred to in the qur'an.you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception o f "deity" to be a muslim. no, one does not!
i am suspicious if you are doing it delibaretely despite you know of it. but in this case, what kind of muslimism is it that you fail to obey the very significant basic moral principles that islam requires! remember the hadith, a very well known principle among muslims, that if someone dares to accuse his religious brother of qufr (blasphemy, atheism, etc), one of these two will certainly turn to blasphemy because of this. if the other one is not really a qafeer, then the word of the accuser will turn to himself and make him so.
why don't you muslims in this board take care? or are you not aware of them yet?








what is wrong with being mohammedan? do you not follow mohammed? you seem you judge anything out of your knowledge as faulty!



don't you see that at all? we all have different qualities and different levels of penetration into meanings from each other. why shouldn't some muslims have deeper understandings than others?



no, this is not a sect, but this is a fact. it is a reality no matter if we like it or not! we all have different levels of understandings from each other.
it is also very interesting that you insist on sufis having a sect despite his disallowance. why are you so desirous to prevail upon another person to define himself as you define?



as far as i understand, sufi believes in the undivided wholeness of us all. do you understand that? if yes, how come then you talk about someone's being divisive while he does not allow divisions? but as you accuse someone of something and try to put him beyond a line you draw, then it is you who is creating the division.
a muslim should not seek for reasons to support his ego's desire to create divisions, but try harder to find commonalities to strenghten our unity for the sake of the religion of unity.



you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception o f "deity" to be a muslim. no, one does not!


If you dont have to believe in Deity then who are the enemies of Allah? friends? Sufi seems to say that Allah is in us and we are him.....not true Allah is above and beyond his creations




remember the hadith, a very well known principle among muslims, that if someone dares to accuse his religious brother of qufr (blasphemy, atheism, etc), one of these two will certainly turn to blasphemy because of this. if the other one is not really a qafeer, then the word of the accuser will turn to himself and make him so.


I know this and have even sent Sufi a PM to this fact to let him know my feelings yet it is my responsibility to "right any wrongs" I see with my religion also



what is wrong with being mohammedan? do you not follow mohammed? you seem you judge anything out of your knowledge as faulty


How little YOU seem to know of Muslims.....that trem is one of the worst you can call a muslim.....We follow Allah(saws)(God) we obey Allah(saws) we love and cherish ALL our Prophets but we dont distinguish between them. Our religion doesnt follow any man but it follows Allah. Allah didnt say our religion was Mohammeden he said it was Islam and we call ourselves muslims.....to do anything less is Shrik



but as you accuse someone of something and try to put him beyond a line you draw, then it is you who is creating the division.

Sorry but I dont claim(as Sufi's do) to have knowledge of the unseen nor to have knowledge that the Prophets(pbuh) didnt have themselves that my friend is the most serious of charges

*************
M*W: God simply does not exist.

look surenderer, i say that you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception o f "deity" to be a muslim.
you say: If you dont have to believe in Deity then who are the enemies of Allah?

are you still saying that one has to believe in your conception of deity to believe a muslim?
but cannot you see it that each and everyone has a different version of god in his or her minds despite they think that they believe in the same god? in one's mind is a forgiving god, in the others' a wrathful one. it goes on and on.

Sufi seems to say that Allah is in us and we are him.....not true Allah is above and beyond his creations

why don't you read the books sufi suggested before jumping to a conclusion about whah he may have meant. in one of the books i have read in the ahmedbaki.com, it is clearly stated that it is simple mindedness to think that allah is in us or we are him. allah is beyond comprehension. for sure sufi is not saying that by saying allah is not afar off us but within the essence of entire being unlimitedly.

I know this and have even sent Sufi a PM to this fact to let him know my feelings yet it is my responsibility to "right any wrongs" I see with my religion also

very unislamic! it is noone's responsibility to right the wrongs of others in matters of faith, while even the prophet was not given this authority, when he was said you will communicate only.
now i hope you are able to tell the difference between the drive to communicate only and the drive to right the wrongs of others. such drives of ego may turn you to a militarist muslim and lead to violance in the end. we are not communicating our ideas in order to put anyone on the right, we are communicating them in order to share only of what we understand. they are worlds apart.

"It is not your duty to set them on the right path, but Allah sets on the right path whom He pleases..." (Bakarah: 272)

How little YOU seem to know of Muslims.....

boy, let us talk about our opinions without jumpimg into judgments or trying to blame or accuse each other in person, shall we?
i hope you can discuss matters without attacking the other in person with your assumptions.
see i am trying to discuss about your opinions and saying this or that one is very unislamic. i am not accusing you in person to be unislamic, thinking that you may change your opinion and make it islamic before death. it is not necesssality you but the thought.

that trem is one of the worst you can call a muslim.....We follow Allah(saws)(God) we obey Allah(saws) we love and cherish ALL our Prophets but we dont distinguish between them. Our religion doesnt follow any man but it follows Allah. Allah didnt say our religion was Mohammeden he said it was Islam and we call ourselves muslims.....to do anything less is Shrik

also very unislamic, which may lead one's ego in the end to deny many hadithes of prophet mohammed just becasue one's logic will fail to allow them.

"And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people." (Baqarah: 143)

Sorry but I dont claim(as Sufi's do) to have knowledge of the unseen nor to have knowledge that the Prophets(pbuh) didnt have themselves that my friend is the most serious of charges

did you ever read in sufis posts that he have knowledge that the prophets didn't have themselves?
otherwise this is also very unislamic behavior done toward your brother of religion, trying to throw accusations of deeds that the other did not do, as i am trying to tell since the beginning.
as a conclusion, our egos should be tamed, if we want to be really good muslims, we must first question our behaviors as to if they fit the basic principals of the religion of peace and unity before trying to correct what we think are the wrongs of others. as we all know, action speaks louder than mere words. being a chatterbox of the teachings of the qur'an does not make one a muslim, but applying them to our personal actions toward others.

boy! don't you read sufi himself, he says he believes in what he understands of allah as referred to in the qur'an. you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception of "deity" to be a muslim. no, one does not!

No that is not true. No one is ordering anyone to believe in anything. The heart of the matter is that someone claims that something is based on the Qur'an while it is not.

If Sufi wants to believe he is Zeus' halfbrother he can, his problem. But if he says that that is based on the Qur'an than he better prove it. A Muslim doesn't take the Qur'an and start cherrypicking words whithout even knowing Arabic. Never!

i am suspicious if you are doing it delibaretely despite you know of it. but in this case, what kind of muslimism is it that you fail to obey the very significant basic moral principles that islam requires! remember the hadith, a very well known principle among muslims, that if someone dares to accuse his religious brother of qufr (blasphemy, atheism, etc), one of these two will certainly turn to blasphemy because of this. if the other one is not really a qafeer, then the word of the accuser will turn to himself and make him so.
why don't you muslims in this board take care? or are you not aware of them yet?

It is not easy no. And yet you should note that I wrote what amounted to be atheism. The fact that someone can claim that we are not separate from Allah says enough.

what is wrong with being mohammedan? do you not follow mohammed? you seem you judge anything out of your knowledge as faulty!

Because Allah said:


022.078
YUSUFALI: And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

PICKTHAL: And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

SHAKIR: And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Also do to searches in the Qur'an. Search for Muslimiin/Muslimoon and search for mohameddan.

don't you see that at all? we all have different qualities and different levels of penetration into meanings from each other. why shouldn't some muslims have deeper understandings than others?

But off course they may, If the don't contradict the Qur'an (and the Sunnah).
Btw, what is your opinion of the Sunnah?

no, this is not a sect, but this is a fact. it is a reality no matter if we like it or not! we all have different levels of understandings from each other.
it is also very interesting that you insist on sufis having a sect despite his disallowance. why are you so desirous to prevail upon another person to define himself as you define?

As I said before everyone uses the word Sufi for a different meaning. And if we use it in a respectfull way, then the term for ahmed baki and co is az.Zanadiqah.

as far as i understand, sufi believes in the undivided wholeness of us all. do you understand that? if yes, how come then you talk about someone's being divisive while he does not allow divisions? but as you accuse someone of something and try to put him beyond a line you draw, then it is you who is creating the division.

If some says Black and the other white than there is a line whether you speak of it or not.

a muslim should not seek for reasons to support his ego's desire to create divisions, but try harder to find commonalities to strenghten our unity for the sake of the religion of unity.

It is not a matter of ego. It is a matter of lying about Allah.

:m:

One more question: Doomdayx, do you understand Arabic?

:m:

One more question: Doomdayx, do you understand Arabic?

:m:

so what :D are you gonna invite me to an arabic board?

No that is not true. No one is ordering anyone to believe in anything. The heart of the matter is that someone claims that something is based on the Qur'an while it is not.

If Sufi wants to believe he is Zeus' halfbrother he can, his problem. But if he says that that is based on the Qur'an than he better prove it. A Muslim doesn't take the Qur'an and start cherrypicking words whithout even knowing Arabic. Never!



It is not easy no. And yet you should note that I wrote what amounted to be atheism. The fact that someone can claim that we are not separate from Allah says enough.



Because Allah said:


022.078
YUSUFALI: And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

PICKTHAL: And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

SHAKIR: And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Also do to searches in the Qur'an. Search for Muslimiin/Muslimoon and search for mohameddan.



But off course they may, If the don't contradict the Qur'an (and the Sunnah).
Btw, what is your opinion of the Sunnah?



As I said before everyone uses the word Sufi for a different meaning. And if we use it in a respectfull way, then the term for ahmed baki and co is az.Zanadiqah.



If some says Black and the other white than there is a line whether you speak of it or not.



It is not a matter of ego. It is a matter of lying about Allah.



boy, will you ever give up throwing allegations on muslims you do not even know? are you aware what kind of an image you are creating?
instead of showing resistance to any advice given to you, you better accept one thing for yourself..
none of the muslims in this world needs to believe in your imagination of separate god even though you tend to label it as allah.
it is obvious that because of your social conditioning to that separate god illusion, you have been **missing** very basic *moral* and *spritual* values and messages given praticularly in tens of qur'an lessons. i am not going to list them all in my post now. you may at least bother to pay attention to the passages posted to your interst from hazrat ali and imam ghazali before, that as long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from god.
so, stop your ego from resisting and debating and throwing accusations! just spare some of your time in a fine day to make a serious investigation for your good instead. neither taking advice nor making investigations is worse than taking a risk of wasting whole life with a vision clouded by ignorance.
neither our arabic knowledge nor cutting and pasting lessons from the qur'an all the time can save us without understanding them properly the unifying message given in them and without applying them to our practices adequately. do not trust that some of your actions do not account and they can escape from the sight of a separate god. as i believe it, nothing can escape from the wholeness of allah.

so what :D are you gonna invite me to an arabic board?

:bugeye: ... no...

And, was that a no?

:m:

boy, will you ever give up throwing allegations on muslims you do not even know? are you aware what kind of an image you are creating?

Sorry man. I don't live for the image. I rather be mean what I say.

instead of showing resistance to any advice given to you, you better accept one thing for yourself..
none of the muslims in this world needs to believe in your imagination of separate god even though you tend to label it as allah.

No but they have to accept the Qur'an as the source. I know you don't like hearing that, but hey it is the truth.

it is obvious that because of your social conditioning to that separate god illusion, you have been **missing** very basic *moral* and *spritual* values and messages given praticularly in tens of qur'an lessons.

Well, aren't we judgmental.

i am not going to list them all in my post now. you may at least bother to pay attention to the passages posted to your interst from hazrat ali and imam ghazali before, that as long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from god.

Yeah but the question is who of the both of us is ignorant and absorbed by sensuality. And the Judge is the Qur'an.

Since you seem to have missed the question earlier: What do you think of the Sunnah?

so, stop your ego from resisting and debating and throwing accusations!

So you want me not to argue and simply accept your idle tales??

just spare some of your time in a fine day to make a serious investigation for your good instead. neither taking advice nor making investigations is worse than taking a risk of wasting whole life with a vision clouded by ignorance.

I am doing but investigate and research. Also, back at you. Think about it.

neither our arabic knowledge nor cutting and pasting lessons from the qur'an all the time can save us without understanding them properly the unifying message given in them and without applying them to our practices adequately.

That is why I ask (again): Do you understand Arabic??

do not trust that some of your actions do not account and they can escape from the sight of a separate god.

:confused:

as i believe it, nothing can escape from the wholeness of allah.

The wholeness... how revealing... ;)

:m:

I am goıng to use your tactic now.,

Sorry man. I don't live for the image. I rather be mean what I say.

by this reply you mean you are not aware of it and so you are staying unaware as you do not need to be.

No but they have to accept the Qur'an as the source. I know you don't like hearing that, but hey it is the truth.

i am telling that none of the muslims in this world needs to believe in your imagination of separate god even though you tend to label it as allah. you say they have to accept the qur'an. what else? dont you understand that they they might think the same for you. your image of god does not fit in their understaning of allah, so you are far from understanding the quran in their eyes.
what is your imagination of me that don't like hearing and what is the truth?


Well, aren't we judgmental.

why? don't you think so? i said, it is obvious that because of your social conditioning to that separate god illusion, you have been **missing** very basic *moral* and *spritual* values and messages given praticularly in tens of qur'an lessons. read our previous posts about backbiting and about how the quran tells that the presence of allah is everywhere, completely contrary to your imagination.

Yeah but the question is who of the both of us is ignorant and absorbed by sensuality. And the Judge is the Qur'an.

who do you think? don't you insist on god's being a separate entity? listen this time hazrat ali says as long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from god.
or do you mean you understand the quran better than hazrat ali, the gate of knowledge?

Since you seem to have missed the question earlier: What do you think of the Sunnah?

what do you expect a muslim reply to that? are you seeking another ground to fight and stisfy your ego?

So you want me not to argue and simply accept your idle tales??

which tale? :confused:
i said stop your ego from resisting and debating and throwing accusations!
ok if you do not accept. let your ego keep resiting debating and throwing accusations on muslims you do not even know.

I am doing but investigate and research. Also, back at you. Think about it.

wher are they, your investigations and conclusions? back at me? then spare
more and more time to make a serious investigation for your good instead. neither taking advice nor making investigations is worse than taking a risk of wasting whole life with a vision clouded by ignorance.

That is why I ask (again): Do you understand Arabic??

what do you hint at that? let us see what is so special about understanding arabic?

The wholeness... how revealing... ;)

what revealing? do you need to sculpt an image in your mind for any name you hear like god?

Apart from all the non-sense I just wasted my time reading (your previous post), I take it you recognise the Sunnah, am I right?

I also conclude that thou speaketh no Arabic.

And where did Ali ibn.abi.Taled - may Allah be pleased with him- say that?

:m:

The heart of the matter is that someone claims that something is based on the Qur'an while it is not.

taking the lessons of the quran that you missed and the words of hazrat ali into account, who is that?

It is not a matter of ego. It is a matter of lying about Allah.

yes i think so for those claiming that allah is a separate god.

I take it you recognise the Sunnah, am I right?

boy, with this superficial approach, you are confusing recognizin sunnah or islam with holding a favorite football team. hearing from me if i am for the sunnah is nothing.
couldn't you still understand that this andislam is not a matter of labels. saying i recognize the Sunnah will not make you one who recognized it really. what you are understaning of it and what you are practising of it, how you base your points of view on it is what matters. the rest is all mere labellings that you will leave in this world when you pass away and labels will not be hepful if you have not gained the faculties and powers from applying them to your understanding. take for instance backbiting and look at your practices, especially your relations with others, if they are suitable within the perspective of rasulallah, if rasulallah woul do something like that. if he wouldn't and if your practices are not suitable to sunnah, then your saying that i recognize sunnah is a simple game you play, whch you will suffer the result in the end.

And where did Ali ibn.abi.Taled - may Allah be pleased with him- say that?

it is your problem to investigate it now after so many repetations, it has been wriitten many times before and you were too busy throwing accusations to other muslims to notice it

Apart from all the non-sense I just wasted my time reading (your previous post), I take it you recognise the Sunnah, am I right?

I also conclude that thou speaketh no Arabic.

And where did Ali ibn.abi.Taled - may Allah be pleased with him- say that?

no :m: for you this time, for making me repeat myself.

I take it you recognise the Sunnah, am I right?

very clever :D and so what?

I also conclude that thou speaketh no Arabic.

let us say no, then so what?

And where did Ali ibn.abi.Taled - may Allah be pleased with him- say that?

look up nahjul balagha! (you were too busy with your sword to notice it) :D

upon hearing the words of mohammed (pbuh) that "allah was allah, and there was not with him a thing" hazrat ali also said, "al an qama qan" (it is that moment we are in).

and so what?

what about your separate god?

atheists are far more closer to grasp what "allah" refers to, than those having a preconception of god.

very clever and so what?

It's usefull to know.

let us say no, then so what?

To confirm my suspicion.

[QUOTE=Doomdayx]look up nahjul balagha! (you were too busy with your sword to notice it) :D

I had it on my to-buy list since summer. I was too busy with (many) other books since.

upon hearing the words of mohammed (pbuh) that "allah was allah, and there was not with him a thing" hazrat ali also said, "al an qama qan" (it is that moment we are in).

Here I can see that you do not grasp Arabic. "Al-an qama qan" means:
Al-an: now.
gama: as
qan: (He) was.

It means He is as He was. This illustrates that Allah himself never changed, Since He is beyond Time and Space

and so what?

So yuo are full of it :cool:

what about your separate god?

Illahu Muhammad -3layhi Salaatu wa ssalaam?
The God of Muhammad -peace be upon him?

Here the sunnah is useful:

Sahih Muslim

Book 004, Number 1094:

Mu'awiya b. al-Hakam said: While I was praying with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), a man in the company sneezed. I said: Allah have mercy on you! The people stared at me with disapproving looks, so I said: Woe be upon me, why is it that you stare at me? They began to strike their hands on their thighs, and when I saw them urging me to observe silence (I became angry) but I said nothing. When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said the prayer (and I declare that neither before him nor after him have I seen a leader who gave better instruction than he for whom I would give my father and mother as ransom). I swear that he did not scold, beat or revile me but said: Talking to persons is not fitting during the prayer, for it consists of glorifying Allah, declaring his Greatness. and recitation of the Qur'an or words to that effect. I said: Messenger of Allah. I was till recently a pagan, but Allah has brought Islam to us; among us there are men who have recourse to Kahins. He said, Do not have recourse to them. I said. There are men who take omens. That is something which they find in their breasts, but let it not turn their way (from freedom of action). I said: Among us there are men who draw lines. He said: There was a prophet who drew lines, so if they do it as they did, that is allowable. I had a maid-servant who tended goats by the side of Uhud and Jawwaniya. One day I happened to pass that way and found that a wolf had carried a goat from her flock. I am after all a man from the posterity of Adam. I felt sorry as they (human beings) feel sorry. So I slapped her. I came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and felt (this act of mine) as something grievous I said: Messenger of Allah, should I not grant her freedom? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Bring her to me. So I brought her to him. He said to her: Where is Allah? She said: He is in the heaven. He said: Who am I? She said: Thou art the Messenger of Allah. He said: Grant her freedom, she is a believing woman.

:m: