With the media being piped into every home and cameras on more and more corners, is technology being used to control us?

Control us ...how?

"Control" can mean many different things.

Baron Max

Control is achieved, in part, through knowledge. Technology imparts effective means to acquire, store, process and disseminate knowledge. Therefore technology is being used to exercise control.

Control is achieved, in part, through knowledge. Technology imparts effective means to acquire, store, process and disseminate knowledge. Therefore technology is being used to exercise control.

Yeah, see? I've always said that ignorance is the best thing for us all!

IGNORANCE IS BLISSFULL! And now it seems that its uncontrollable, too. What more could anyone ask?

Baron Max

Control as to manipulate the choices we make so that 'we do what we're told.'

Ever since I started studying neurolinguistic programming I've noticed commercials, news, and even sitcoms using subtle persuasion techniques. Its nothing like a gun to your head. Its more like a single strand of a spider's web. Over, and over, and over in different areas...

ie We went from 15 or so Saudis attacking us on 911. To attacking Afghnistan where the terrorists trained, to attacking Iraq because Iraq might have WMDs, to we have to rebuild Iraq because its the decent thing to do.

or

Gay people are odd, to gay people just want to be left alone, to gay people need to be protected by new laws, to gay people are funny and hip.

I don't have any strong feelings about the war or gay people because I'm not heavily taxed and sexual preference isn't a hangup of mine. What bothers me is how rapid society has gone along with this type of thing. If our attitudes can be changed so rapidly toward such things how else can we be manipulated?

Technology has made it easier, but governments have always tried to control people. Democracy is especially dangerous because it gives an illusion of control to the population, when in reality the people control nothing.

It's gone so far that one of the defining attributes of being 'mature' and 'grown up' is accepting the current state of affairs and realising that you're absolutely powerless to change anything.

Technology has made it easier, but governments have always tried to control people.

Why do you say "governments"? I mean, as I see it, it's not the governments, but the news media who is exerting the control over the viewers. And I'd even add the Internet to that, as well.

In fact, if you think much about it, the media polls exert a tremendous influence on politicians of the government, not the other way around.

But I don't see how you can accuse the "government" of doing any of the "control" or "manipulation". If you do, can you elaborate?

Baron Max

Nobody would finance "social sciences", if findings couldn't be used to control masses. More than that, I think that all Western democratic circus is possible only because masses can be easily manipulated. Don't forget education, which long has become a tool for brain control and indoctrination.

Lecture: The Manipulation of Consciousness, the Penetration of Globalization
The modern era has witnessed the divergence of two separate social types: the bourgeois (liberal, "democratic") and the traditional (group-oriented, "authoritarian"). The former is founded on the model of the marketplace, the latter on the basis of the family. For the bourgeois type, the most important means of governing is the manipulation of consciousness; for the traditional type, it is open force ("the tyrant does not manipulate; he orders"). Part of society welcomes the transition from force to manipulation; if it must be that the strongest subordinate the weakest to his will, then let him do it with a "drug," not with a "whip." Others say, however, that the "drug" is worse than the "whip," calling it "the severest and most dangerous form of totalitarianism." In his lecture, Kara-Murza speaks of a choice between two types of "tyrannies," rather than one between democracy and totalitarianism. In his view, the idea that the existence of "democratic mechanisms" guarantees a person freedom, while the absence of such mechanisms destroys it, is the fruit of naivete.

We need to distinguish between manipulation and control.

If I can get you to want what I want you to want, is that control? Of course the degree of successful manipulation via the media is going to vary with individuals. But if 85% of people are considerably affected then that is going to limit what the corportions produce so you are stuck choosing from what they can get dummies to buy and you may know what could be manufactured but you can't buy what nobody makes.

So like it or not, you are a victim of those dumb enough to be manipulated.

But how much influence can each of us have via the internet?

http://www.spectacle.org/1199/wargame.html

Change what people know to change what people want.

psik

Don't forget education, which long has become a tool for brain control and indoctrination.

Brain control and indoctrination? By whom? And for what?

You say that like it's some kind of national conspiracy in which millions of teachers and educators are willing conspirators. Can you really believe that, if it is a national conspiracy, someone, perhaps a few, wouldn't come forth to reveal it to us? Conspiracies are damned difficult to accomplish ...and on such a large scale, they're virtually impossible to conceal.

Baron Max

Which is why we know about them..........

Why do you say "governments"? I mean, as I see it, it's not the governments, but the news media who is exerting the control over the viewers. And I'd even add the Internet to that, as well.

In fact, if you think much about it, the media polls exert a tremendous influence on politicians of the government, not the other way around.

But I don't see how you can accuse the "government" of doing any of the "control" or "manipulation". If you do, can you elaborate?
I don't think it's as simple as that. The media often times simply regurgitates what the government has said, real investigative journalism is at an all time low unless they're investigating a car repair shop.

The media is guilty of a lot of things, but I don't believe they're out to control society. They certainly help facilitate control over the population because they're tools.

Brain control and indoctrination? By whom? And for what?

You say that like it's some kind of national conspiracy in which millions of teachers and educators are willing conspirators. Can you really believe that, if it is a national conspiracy, someone, perhaps a few, wouldn't come forth to reveal it to us? Conspiracies are damned difficult to accomplish ...and on such a large scale, they're virtually impossible to conceal.

Baron Max

Baron, you should get some info on the history of American (or any other industrialized country) education before using an old "it's a conspiracy" trick. John Taylor Gatto's - "The Underground History Of American Education" would be a nice starting point. No, teachers are not getting clandestine messages from the Galactic center, telling them how to dumb&shape pupils down, they have a job to do, programs&rules to follow. Results or that job are seen with a naked eye - docile, isolated, uncapable of cooperation, barely literate, flagwaving, unthinking, sports&celebrity crazed working force having no doubts about sanctity of the system. One just would need to compare curriculum of public and private/elite schools to see that terrible "conspiracy".

Don't forget education, which long has become a tool for brain control and indoctrination.
Brain control and indoctrination? By whom? And for what?


The way one thinks is affected by the information one gets and doesn't get.

I remember the nun telling us about The Continents.

I sat there looking at that map noticing there was no water between Asia and Europe and wondering how she came to the conclusion Europe was a continent. I thought, "This woman is lying to us and she is showing us the evidence she is lying to us but sh expects us to believe her anyway. These people are insane"

There is one really funny thing about Eurothink.

Have you noticed that dictionaries tend to be in alphabetical order?

Look up continent in a dictionary and see if there is a list of continents. Will you be surprised if Europe is listed first? A book that is notorious for being in alphabetical order can't list the so called continents that way.

What does that say about cultural indoctrination?

The trouble with The Matrix is that it becomes so much a part of you that you don't even notice it is there. :D :D

Don't you think it is easier to remember the Basic Accounting Equation

Assets - Liabilities = Net Worth

then it is to remember how to spell

ANTIDISESTABLISHMENTARIANISM ???

Which do you think more grammar school kids have to learn?

We are EuroBorg

You will be assimilated

http://www.startreklives.de/personnel/images/locutus.jpg

Resistance is FUTILE!

psik

No, teachers are not getting clandestine messages from the Galactic center, telling them how to dumb&shape pupils down, they have a job to do, programs&rules to follow.

So there's a bunch of people who write the education programs and the rules for teachers .....so as to manipulate and control the students? And those people are bound together in this ...ahh, conspiracy... to control society? And no one has ever come forward with this information? And no "investigative reporters" have ever found out this horrid condition?

Hmm?

Baron Max

So there's a bunch of people who write the education programs and the rules for teachers .....so as to manipulate and control the students? And those people are bound together in this ...ahh, conspiracy... to control society? And no one has ever come forward with this information? And no "investigative reporters" have ever found out this horrid condition?

Hmm?

Baron Max

I think I gave you a reference - Gatto, the guy worked as a teacher for 30 years with distinction. If you really want to get some insights about how it works just read/listen what the guy has to say instead of using "it's a conspiracy" crutch and waiting for smart ass reporter.

I think I gave you a reference - Gatto, the guy worked as a teacher for 30 years with distinction. If you really want to get some insights about how it works just read/listen what the guy has to say instead of using "it's a conspiracy" crutch and waiting for smart ass reporter.

So ...you believe this one guy's opinion? ...above all others?

Baron Max

The most annoying thing about this is that it is from 1992.

Dumb Down (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7398714418354815608&pl=true)

I guess the biggest problem is all of the people that believe in and trust AUTHORITY.

psik

The tail does not wag the dog.

So ...you believe this one guy's opinion? ...above all others?

Baron Max

I can't read other's minds. However, I've stumbled upon opinions resembling those of Gatto (who's way far away from being a lefty, btw). The fact that you will no see/hear discussions of such opinions in corporate media says a lot. Besides, I have my eyes and ears.

There is a book called "Manipulation of consciousness" by Kara Murza. Interesting read but it's not in English. Manipulations are not something BIG and diabolic, it's carefully concocted mixture of the small things leading to the desired goal.

The "it's a conspiracy" Baron is using is one of such small things. Call something "it's a conspiracy theory", call somebody "conspiracy theorist" and it triggers automatic blocking of audience's brains thus discarding the undesirable views without intelligent arguing. Needless to say that such a "brain blocking" trigger words are not absorbed with mother's milk, they are patiently taught.

Manipulations are not something BIG and diabolic, it's carefully concocted mixture of the small things leading to the desired goal.

"Carefully concocted" by whom? And conducted by whom? And how could it possibly be as widespread as you've indicated without a single complaint about it from anyone?

And of all those people involved, why hasn't one single individual come forth to testify to those "carefully concocted manipulations"?

And ....what are you smokin'? Do you, perhaps, smoke it too much?

Baron Max

I don't believe for one second that this was on anyone's mind in the 50's when TV was introduced.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/04/040406090140.htm

But this society is doing giant uncontrolled experiments on itself.

But the general rule in societies has been the smart people in power try to keep the dumb, DUMB.

psik

But the general rule in societies has been the smart people in power try to keep the dumb, DUMB.

And since ignorance is bliss, those in power are trying to keep us happy.

Baron Max

And since ignorance is bliss, those in power are trying to keep us happy.

Baron Max

Indeed,

and hence the invention of the internet which caused people to gain knowledge from geocities sites instead books.

and internet discussion forums of course.

your monkey

"Carefully concocted" by whom? And conducted by whom? And how could it possibly be as widespread as you've indicated without a single complaint about it from anyone?

And of all those people involved, why hasn't one single individual come forth to testify to those "carefully concocted manipulations"?

And ....what are you smokin'? Do you, perhaps, smoke it too much?

Baron Max
Gee, Baron, don't stick your head into arse deep, get out of there and smell the roses once in a while. USA has the biggest and the most advanced marketing and advertisement industry, American PR consultants are "aranging" elections in "new democracies", add there think tanks, psych Ops branches of CIA and FBI (sure, those don't exist), total corporate control of mainstream media, universities, education. Fucking cold war was won mainly by unknown American Psych OP officers who've brainwashed entire enemy country into submissive destruction, but nobody even speak about them.

As I said, manipulations are not guided from Galactic Center. But since all that matters in this life is money and power, they buy needed manipulations in the dispersive manner and don't even hide it.

When I get in mood, I'll translate few pieces of the book I"ve mentioned before for Baron to get out of the comfy cocoon at least once in life time.

THE CENTURY OF THE SELF
Monday 29 April - Thursday 2 May 2002 7pm-8pm


Adam Curtis' acclaimed series examines the rise of the all-consuming self against the backdrop of the Freud dynasty.

To many in both politics and business, the triumph of the self is the ultimate expression of democracy, where power has finally moved to the people. Certainly the people may feel they are in charge, but are they really? The Century of the Self tells the untold and sometimes controversial story of the growth of the mass-consumer society in Britain and the United States. How was the all-consuming self created, by whom, and in whose interests?

The Freud dynasty is at the heart of this compelling social history. Sigmund Freud, founder of psychoanalysis; Edward Bernays, who invented public relations; Anna Freud, Sigmund's devoted daughter; and present-day PR guru and Sigmund's great grandson, Matthew Freud.

Sigmund Freud's work into the bubbling and murky world of the subconscious changed the world. By introducing a technique to probe the unconscious mind, Freud provided useful tools for understanding the secret desires of the masses. Unwittingly, his work served as the precursor to a world full of political spin doctors, marketing moguls, and society's belief that the pursuit of satisfaction and happiness is man's ultimate goal.

Baron, get acquainted with a piece, it's in English, but you feel way too comfortable deep inside to smell the roses.

Wow, Dixon, you smoke a lot of that stuff, don't ya'? :D

Baron Max

Wow, Dixon, you smoke a lot of that stuff, don't ya'? :D

Baron Max

Shouldn't you exlore a change to your nick, something like Baron Zombie, finest product of the American societary selection:)? Your insistence that world/nation events are totally random, that mighty ones just let plebians to think/do what they want, suggests that you can't enjoy smoking any stuff, implanted chips are not that complex yet.

Please learn the difference between science and technology. Science is a method.

The only way you could 'control society' with science would be if you could carry out controlled experiments on society and verify their outcomes. To do that, you'd already have to 'control society'. :rolleyes:

Social sciences are not science strictly speaking. Obviously, one doesn't use a quantum physicist to tilt the outcome of elections. One doesn't use a chemist to "encourage" people to buy stuff they don't need. One would order "social" professionals. Even though social professionals cannot guarantee a specified response to their efforts, complex correlations between the efforts of "social scientists" and response of the zombied public do exist. Thus, it's "science" in its infancy.

With the media being piped into every home and cameras on more and more corners, is technology being used to control us?

"Being piped in"? As in, you don't have a choice?

It's your decision whether or not to own a television or radio or internet connection.

And if you do, it's then your choice which channel or station or website you want to view or listen to.

And after all that, it's your own responsibility to think about and evaluate what you see and hear.

With the media being piped into every home and cameras on more and more corners, is technology being used to control us? What kind of studies do you think led to invention of television?

And after all that, it's your own responsibility to think about and evaluate what you see and hear.

How do you exercise your responsibility to think when you are bombarded with distorted information and important information is not even mentioned? How do you figure out what you are NOT TOLD? Will it occur to you to ask?

It has been almost 6 years since 9/11. How many times have you heard the number of tons of steel on the floors where the planes hit the towers mentioned?

http://www.freethoughtforum.org/forum/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=645

psikey

Yes the nazis developed some pretty precise and disgusting psychology in their attempt at world take over. Now we know they lost WWII, but their filthy studies/tests on humans did indeed prove alot about the human psychology.

My advice to you: Turn off your TV

Oh, I will certainly admit that both the media and the educational system are screwed up beyond repair. But what I see isn't the result of some vast, nefarious plot... rather I see the result of an uncontrolled fumble of bureaucracy and selfcenteredness repeated a million times over.

In schools, teachers and staff want one thing: quiet. Every time something happens, at best they will have to work harder and at worst they are going to be sued. So they end up wanting to crank children through the system like widgets on an assembly line with a minimum of effort and exposure.

In media, it is actually the opposite. They don't want you placid.... at least not in the conventional sense. They want to squeeze feeling out of you every time you turn on the television. Mostly, they want you to be either angry at something (though you may not necessarily even know why you are angry) or filled with senseless hunger for one thing or another. This is all because such things net them the most money.

If the forces of evil were behind all of this, I have a feeling things would be a wee bit more streamlined. In any case, don't worry about science: worry about the spoken and the written word. Technology may help spread these two things, but it is they that twist the will of men.

But what I see isn't the result of some vast, nefarious plot...

"Manufacturing of consent" is not a plot, it's the way things are. The main goal is to atomize, dumb down, distract people with selebrities, sports, consumption, staying afloat, etc. just not to let them to participate meaningfully (voting in meaningless election doesn't count) in public arena. When people try to affect things anyway, that's so called "crisis of democracy", it simply cannot be tolerated in the hierarchical societies.
"Social control" is very important for those who counts, there is no way it can go "unfunded", too much dough at the stake.


If you think that can't be true in the land of the free, just wait until some labor/social conflict will ripen in your area, then, relax. watch and enjoy all orwellian arsenal in action .

It wasn't too uncommon to run across the term planned obsolescence in the media back in the 60's but it has practically disappeared since then. How much does the automobile industry spend on TV advertising every year? Is the media going to bite a hand that feeds it?

So we have to use the internet to distribute information that stimulates thinking.

It is Global Mind War!

WarGames (http://www.totse.com/en/politics/economic_documents/economicwargam179613.html)

http://discussions.pbs.org/viewtopic.pbs?t=28529

How do economists with PhDs forget to talk about the depreciation of automobiles for 60 years?

"All warfare is based on deception." - Sun Tzu

Science and technology have just provided more tools to play the same old games better. But the internet makes it possible for more people to play.

psikey

Psikeyhacker, we have a lot of people on the Internet who also run interference for various industries.

Ask yourself why an alternative fuel industry based on alcohol would have people running interference for it. It is because this alternative fuel industry uses about as much fossil fuels as the cars would have if they used gasoline, so that the oil industry either doesn't lose to ethanol or does gain. Ethanol also helps quiet environmental protestors.

Anyway, the answer exists in one of the first replies. Knowledge is control. To obtain knowledge one much have time. Time is money...so with the right efforts money is control through knowledge. Without knowing what is going on around you (the example of commercials is ideal) then you tend to conform to what the masses have presented as an easy obvious option. If one doesn't have enough time to sit down and dismantle thoughts daily due to working overtime, having a family, and trying to keep sane through mundane life (hanging out, getting CRUNK), then he tends to assimilate with others more easily.
No, there is no government controlling us but those who have time to think and question how to will succeed in some effect. If there are enough people with common interests despite knowing one another (a CEO who is close with the security of emails could very well read each flagged one personally. He has no other job.), these abject companies might find themselves in the same [chat] room one day.
Or maybe it really is all chaos like the media tells us it is.

Well, without technology we would be a lot less informed - and probably easier to control. So, no, more technology does not mean we are more under control than before.

Well, without technology we would be a lot less informed - and probably easier to control. So, no, more technology does not mean we are more under control than before.

But disinformation can be spread a lot better. You know who USED technology to get people to worship him and do him a lot of ugly little favors.

Psikeyhacker, we have a lot of people on the Internet who also run interference for various industries.


The internet cannot be used to force people to think. It is still up to the people getting info/bullsh!t to do some sorting. But relevant information density matters. You can put little relevant info in a lot of words or a lot of relevant info in few words.

From how many sources have you heard of economists ignoring depreciation of consumer goods? Do you ever hear economists on TV discussing depreciation?

psik

Yeah, but the fact that there was disinformation was also spread quickly - and look at what has happened to HIM.

well... education comes from a conveyor belt, right? The ministry of education is responsible for what "has to" be taught and what "needn't" by what I'd innocently figure. So I'd look there for people who direct education. But, they can only push it so much. And there's surely more than one person pushing them in their own directions. The first 9 years of school (before highschool), I believed the school was a brainwashing machine. Tough.

Some teachers try to teach, others follow the program. They're taught, too, teacher skills can be learned via conveyor belt education. So some are just damn idiots. It's a matter of luck there.

Internet speeds things and ups the stakes. More info is available than one person can probably absorb, so it's hard to be sure in anything, express any opinions. Lies can spread faster, so can info. So I agree, same game on new levels. Hard to even keep track of the levels... "HELP!!!" is a word that comes to mind.


edit - oh yeah, sure, if you don't like TV, don't watch it. It's about as effective as saying if you don't like the government, elect someone else. You just don't get a real choice there. IF you choose to live without TV, you'll lose a noticable part of modern culture. I mean, it's not that simple if everyone else has TV and everyone assumes you have one. As for switching channels... "three hundred channels and nothing to watch", "same crap on every channel".

Yeah, but the fact that there was disinformation was also spread quickly - and look at what has happened to HIM.

What would have happened to HIM if he had been more intelligent and sane?

IF you choose to live without TV, you'll lose a noticable part of modern culture. I mean, it's not that simple if everyone else has TV and everyone assumes you have one. And so what if you do lose a 'noticeable part of modern culture'? Why would that matter? What could it possibly matter that 'everyone' assumes you have a TV too? Let them make their inane assumptions. Ignore that 'noticeable', but largely valueless part of modern culture. For ****'s sake, would it be too much trouble to try being an individual, rather than a herd animal?
[Now get ready. I'm sure you can manage a knee jerk reaction. Don't let us all down.]

"Manufacturing of consent" is not a plot, it's the way things are. The main goal is to atomize, dumb down, distract people with selebrities, sports, consumption, staying afloat, etc. just not to let them to participate meaningfully (voting in meaningless election doesn't count) in public arena. When people try to affect things anyway, that's so called "crisis of democracy", it simply cannot be tolerated in the hierarchical societies.
"Social control" is very important for those who counts, there is no way it can go "unfunded", too much dough at the stake.


If you think that can't be true in the land of the free, just wait until some labor/social conflict will ripen in your area, then, relax. watch and enjoy all orwellian arsenal in action .
From my perspective, plot and intent are synonymous. It is indeed the way things are but it is not due to the intentional workings of any group or set of groups. Rather it is simply an emergent trend that is produced by the actions of the masses of milling human beings that make up society. Nobody is planning for this to happen any more than a termite queen plans to erect a cathederal of mud and sand. It is just something that happens when you get enough termites reacting to each other.

Uniformity of nature and action are beneficial traits in large populations while individuality, though sometimes benifical, creates proverbial cracks in the superstructure. In smaller groups, however, a high level of diversity and flexability is essential for group survival.

This isn't to say that I like the way these big groups work. In the old days I would have taken the traditional way out and thrown myself at the frontier... the crusades, the wild west, whatever. But, alas, we seem to be out of frontier unless you plan on strapping a rocket to your ass and learning how to breath void.

Society has no goals: it is blind and with hardly any memory. And it learns only by bashing headlong into obsticals to determine their positions.
People try to steer it by pulling on its nosering but rarely is there one who can keep from being drug along for the ride.

And so what if you do lose a 'noticeable part of modern culture'? Why would that matter?

My life is totally ruined because I didn't watch Seinfeld and Friends.

Star Trek just wasn't enough.

:D :D

psik

[Now get ready. I'm sure you can manage a knee jerk reaction. Don't let us all down.]
why, you're actually literally begging for it!

Well, for one, if you can't become an individual while having a TV and watching it, it's unlikely you'd simply become one when you give your TV up. It doesn't automatically make you wise or give character. Watch TV and don't let it rule your life - that'd build character. Giving it up is running away from TV.

Everyone assuming something about you does matter, if you wish to live in society. Disregarding assumptions and thinking nothing of modern culture as you advised, one would have no choice but to become a hermit who wishes to live in another age. Is giving up TV for the sake that it's too standard and cheesy worth it? Is it... no trouble?

"Herd animal" has really become a trend word, everyone uses it without second thought. TV-watching alone is hardly sufficient cause to become a herd animal.
So don't be a trend animal who says "Just don't watch TV, it's as simple as that, there's absolutely nothing to it, don't be a herd animal" and then watches TV.

Not just science, but more specifically: Psychology