Is rock an original white genre

Discussion in 'Art & Culture' started by Huggins293, Aug 11, 2007.

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  1. Huggins293

    Huggins293 Registered Member

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    This following responses is by the cyber racist akobadageth who feels blacks are inferior. He believes that rock music is white. If you were to respond to him what would you say to this response(Be warned some words are offensive):

    Moderator note: text has been edited

    YOU MAY HAVE HEARD [deleted] TRYING TO CLAIM [deleted] INVENTED ROCK MUSIC AND OTHER BULLSHIT,WELL HERES THE FACTS....

    You should not give credit [deleted] where credit is not due. Where do you think [deleted] acquired guitars, pianos, and brass instruments? Do you think they came over on slave ships They weren't developed in Africa, they were developed in
    EUROPE, along with the concepts of melody, harmony, modes and scales, and the written form of the bass clef, the treble clef, and time signatures. The only thing [deleted] brought to America was an instinct for rhythm, the ability make make simple percussive intruments, and rudimentary "field hollers". They did not bring music, just the same crude and bizarre rhthyms and chanting that chracterizes rap "music".

    Beginning with Gregorian chants through Classical forms and folk idioms (Celtic, Scotch-Irish, French, Germanic, Spanish etc.), all American music can be traced to Europe. Even the rock-and-roll backbeat had origins in Celtic music. The only original music of a non-Western origin involves the microtones (intervals smaller than a half-step) of Eastern music. What one refers to as "blues music" are flat-thirds, flat sevenths, and the passing tones of diminshed fifths and diminished sixths, all of which came from the modes of natural, melodic and harmonic minor scales, WHICH WERE CONCEPTS OF THE WHITE MAN. There is no historical evidence that Africans had any concept of the octave or twelve-tone scales.

    I'll give [deleted] credit for one thing, they are master mimics... [deleted]. As for Elvis, his first big hit was "Blue Moon Of
    Kentucky", a really great bluegrass song. You should realize that reading 'Rolling Stone' magazine does not make you educated in music history.

    And what about hip-hop? Is "rap" a form of original black music? ALL of the electronic tools that rappers use, drum machines, sythesizers, samplers etc. etc. were created by White men. The rappers even take samples from White rock music. But what is "hip-hop/rap"? It's the electronic equivalent of a [deleted].
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2007
    Huggins293, Aug 11, 2007
    #1

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  3. Lord Hillyer

    Lord Hillyer Banned Banned

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    The first line discredits the rest of it.
     
    Lord Hillyer, Aug 11, 2007
    #2

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  5. Orleander

    Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    why respond at all? Wouldn't that just keep him going?
     
    Orleander, Aug 11, 2007
    #3

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  7. Fraggle Rocker

    Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I would urge the moderator to edit that line. It does not merit an infraction because it is a quotation, but it's not identified well enough as such and it violates our policies.

    As for the text... Well Huggie, all culture is a continuum. Rock and roll, like all musical genres, is a collection of motifs and its essence is not in the individual motifs but in the way they are put together. Rock is a sub-genre of jazz. The defining characteristics of jazz are syncopation, which it got from ragtime, and various elements of the blues including improvisation and a modality with tension on the third and seventh notes of the scale. In addition rock has a driving rhythm, which it got from the Americanized trans-Latin American music of New York as filtered through its Italian community, a backbeat which it got from the pick-strum signature of guitar-based country-western music, and several motifs that are simply the spirit of the Baby Boomers of all ethnic roots, such as high volume, lyrics about rebellion, and unpolished, often screamed, vocals.

    To try to deconstruct this and point to the ultimate origins of each motif is to miss the point. It is the way they are put together that makes it rock and roll. Look at the music of highly popular performers like Abba, which has no blues modality, Rush, which veers off into time signatures that defy toe-tapping, James Taylor, whose voice never rises above conversational level, Pat Benatar, who sounds like a trained opera singer because she is one, and John Denver, who died without ever rebelling against anything. They are all rock and roll.

    Remember that unless you're God, the definition of "creativity" is: combining existing things in new ways. It is in the organization, not the elements.

    The first songs that were identified as the new genre of rock and roll in the mid-1950s were the results of the creativity of several American communities. One was certainly white Southerners like BIll Haley, who helped establish the guitar-drums-bass format that has survived many challenges and brought the guitar soloing style of country music, and Boots Randolph, who popularized the yakity-sax style that you still hear in every saxophone solo. But another was unquestionably urban black Americans. They are the ones who put the backbeat (accents on the upbeats in each measure instead of the downbeats) into rhythm and blues, which was their music, and transformed it into something else. Furthermore, individuals from that community left a stamp on rock that is still there. Bo Diddley invented the Bo Diddley beat (duh). Little Richard taught us how to pound on a keyboard.

    But Chuck Berry is one of the three or four icons of rock and roll because he transformed its identity. In the 1950s it was not clear whether the piano or the tenor saxophone would be the dominant instrument in rock. The guitar was not even in the running! Then along came "Johnny B. Goode," which elevated electric blues riffs to a new level. The rest is history. You rarely find a saxophone in a rock band any more, and the piano was on its way to the graveyard until the synthesizer revitalized keyboard work.

    Rock and roll is not black music, but it is not white music either. It is American music. It is a product of our melting pot, by many measures perhaps our most important product. And like America itself, trying to draw a boundary between white and black is not only a little rude (hey you gangsta rappers!), but pointless.

    Oh BTW, Africans had melodic instruments. I was chastised for claiming that the banjo was invented in America. It was invented in recognizable form and function in Africa. Does that leave us with just the steel guitar?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2007
    Fraggle Rocker, Aug 11, 2007
    #4
  8. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Can a racist bypass moderation by using quotations from other racists to express his views?
     
    S.A.M., Aug 11, 2007
    #5
  9. draqon

    draqon Banned Banned

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    35,006
    hmmm...that's tough...

    I wouldn't bypass it...
     
    draqon, Aug 11, 2007
    #6
  10. lucifers angel

    lucifers angel same shit, differant day!! Registered Senior Member

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    7,590
    i've heard people say your ignorant
     
    lucifers angel, Aug 11, 2007
    #7
  11. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    No, but Africans used other instruments which were similar. African singing is a fine art, too.

    Melody, harmony, modes and scales were all developed independently in Africa.

    False. Consider many of the early "spirituals", for example.

    False. American music is an amalgam of influences from different parts of the world, and not just Europe.

    Yet for some strange reason the blues were first played by black people.

    On the contrary, most African music is based on the twelve-tone scale.

    Repeated failure to differentiate between music and music instruments indicates that the writer is an idiot.

    And everywhere else...

    That's a matter of taste.
     
    James R, Aug 11, 2007
    #8
  12. cosmictraveler

    cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Rock music wasn't invented it just developed like evolution through time and with various people changing it as it progressed.
     
    cosmictraveler, Aug 11, 2007
    #9
  13. Willy

    Willy Banned Banned

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    587
    Says you.


    The early origins of the instrument, now known as the banjo, are obscure. That its precursors came from Africa to America, probably by the West Indies, is by now well established. Yet, the multitude of African peoples, languages, and music make it very difficult to associate the banjo with any specific African protoype. From various historical references, however, it can be deduced that the banjar, or bangie, or banjer, or banza, or banjo was played in early 17th century America by Africans in slavery who constructed their instruments from gourds, wood, and tanned skins, using hemp or gut for strings. This prototype was eventually to lead to the evolution of the modern banjo in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Until 1800 the banjo remained essentially a black instrument, although at times there was considerable interaction between whites and blacks in enjoying music and dance—whites usually participating as observers. What brought the instrument to the attention of the nation, however, was a grotesque representation of black culture by white performers in minstrel shows.

    http://www.standingstones.com/banjo.html
     
    Willy, Aug 11, 2007
    #10
  14. Fraggle Rocker

    Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I may edit the post to make it child-friendly, but not necessarily issue an infraction. Providing source material is one of the fundamentals of the scientific method. If you say, "I believe this, and look here, other people believe it too," it has at least an overtone of a scholarly discussion.

    Sociology is a "soft science" whose theories don't really satisfy the scientific definition of "theories." It's difficult to apply the same rules to the assertion that black people did not invent rock and roll as we would to the assertion that the underwater rock formations off the coast of Bimini are the ruins of Atlantis.

    Nonetheless, as I have said on the Moderators' subforum, I try to be guided by the Plazma Principle. Most of our members are children. Do I want their parents to catch them reading this on our website? When it comes to a conflict with the American principle of freedom of speech, I'll agonize over a decision then. But SciForums has a policy of not tolerating racism so the moderation of this thread should be draconian.
    Yes, the information I was kindly led to by the people who objected to my post about the banjo was similar to this. Creation is a messy process with no clear milestones. Is the sousaphone a distinct instrument or just the functionality of a tuba in the shape of a helicon for easy marching? Is the electric guitar just a guitar? Is the ukulele just a small guitar? Is the synthesizer just a piano? That's why I fell back on the steel guitar. I don't think there's any question that it is a brand new instrument and it was invented here.
     
    Fraggle Rocker, Aug 12, 2007
    #11
  15. iceaura

    iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    The oversimplification I've found most persuasive was that rock and roll happened when the Irish tune met the Burundi beat. It happened south of the Mason-Dixon line, and east of the Mississippi River.
     
    iceaura, Aug 13, 2007
    #12
  16. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Just ask the early rock and roll and jazz musicians what was the biggest influence on their music and it wasn't the 12 note scale or any particular instrument, it was the experience and music of American blacks. It was the jazz, gospel, and blues musicians and their unique approach that made rock what it is today.
     
    spidergoat, Aug 13, 2007
    #13
  17. mikenostic

    mikenostic Stop pretending you're smart! Registered Senior Member

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    I don't think they should be able to. If a racist is quoting another racist remark for the sole purpose of racist trolling, to me that would be equivalent to the person making his/her own racist remarks. Wouldn't it be like using my friend's gun to shoot you instead of my own?

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    I think it's only acceptable quoting racist remarks if you are using it to argue your (non-racist) point.

    Like if I were quoting an article with a racist remark to show how appauling it was. Did I explain that clearly enough?
     
    mikenostic, Aug 13, 2007
    #14
  18. Willy

    Willy Banned Banned

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    I think the fact that the greatest black/African musical success has happened right here in American and not in Africa,

    is plenty of proof that white Americans have been a big influnce in helping the black/African evolutionary musical success.
     
    Willy, Aug 13, 2007
    #15
  19. Oli

    Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Or just that America is more concerned with making money from sales and promoting "stars" as someone to be emulated...
     
    Oli, Aug 13, 2007
    #16
  20. Willy

    Willy Banned Banned

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    To make money, first you will need to create a product people will want.
     
    Willy, Aug 13, 2007
    #17
  21. Oli

    Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Or people with more disposable income than is "good for them" and convince them they want it.

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    Oli, Aug 13, 2007
    #18
  22. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    You are correct in one sense, black music combined with white exploitation and commercialization led to the popularity of jazz, rock, and to a lesser extent blues.
     
    spidergoat, Aug 13, 2007
    #19
  23. Willy

    Willy Banned Banned

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    Are you claiming blacks do not care to achive monetary success from their talents?

    I know a few rappers who will disagree.
     
    Willy, Aug 13, 2007
    #20
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