Hey Asguard! :)

Let's see... you said in the other thread:

i think vengence is stupid and that there is a reason that our legle system is based on JUSTICE not VENGENCE but i understand WHY they feel like it

Well. I agree that our legal system is not based on vengence... but I don't agree that it's justice.

For a simple reason...
For example... if you are a powerful multinational company against a small one, which one will have more money to pay for better lawyers? Which one will be supported by the government? The answer is simple: the powerful multinational. Even if the small company is the victim, it will lose the case because it doesn't has good lawyers (or enough) and the government sometimes support more the multinationals (sometimes not...). It depends on the case... Is that justice?

Yes... the reason is: power.

Besides that, justice is always associated with punishment. You have to pay a fee, or go to jail, or lose your life for something that you did. Does this solve the problem? No. Does this creates resentment, fear of vengence and vengence itself? Yes.

I'm not here to suggest a new justice system, but I have my doubts about the one we have...

Love,
Nelson

Actually, any real-world legal system has to be based on vengence to at least some extent, because if the victim of a crime doesn't get at least SOME satisfaction out of the legal system, they'll pursue vengence privately. With all the problems for society, such as feuds, that implies. One of the major functions of the legal system is preventing that, by putting the process in the hands of people who can approach it with greater objectivity. And against whom it isn't safe to respond in turn.

Anyway, who says that vengence and justice can't be the same thing? Let's ask the dictionary:

"Main Entry: ven·geance
Pronunciation: 'ven-j&n(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from vengier to avenge, from Latin vindicare to lay claim to, avenge -- more at VINDICATE
Date: 14th century
: punishment inflicted in retaliation for an injury or offense :"

"Main Entry: jus·tice
Pronunciation: 'j&s-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English & Old French; Old English justice, from Old French justice, from Latin justitia, from justus
Date: 12th century
1 a : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : JUDGE c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity
2 a : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS c : the quality of conforming to law
3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : CORRECTNESS "

So, vengence can certainly be part of justice, if it's impartially carried out.

Justice is not a requisite of an adversarial legal system.

Take care ;)

Nelson, that's just the result of Capitalism.

Brett Bellmore,
Does vengence or "justice" solve the problem...?

Tyler,
Yes... why do you think I don't like capitalism...? One of the reasons...

ok vengence is revenge, pure and simple

justice has 4 factors
Protection of sociaty
rehab
Deterant
and punishment

THAT is there order of importance to

In Australia at least

here our opinion is not "hang them all and let god decided"

a person is PRESUMED inocent untill found otherwise

They have that RIGHT along with the RIGHT to a FAIR and IMPARTAL hearing

Not a hearing by the victom who is INHERENTLY bias

"punishment" is decided by the JUDGE NOT the Jury. The judge must ALWAYS be impartal or the convicton can be thrown out

That will do for now

Nelson:

Besides that, justice is always associated with punishment. You have to pay a fee, or go to jail, or lose your life for something that you did. Does this solve the problem? No. Does this creates resentment, fear of vengence and vengence itself? Yes.

And why dosen't it solve the problem? You assert, but do not prove.

Resentment? Possibly. Fear of vengence? Well, like duh, that's the point! Vengence itself? How many criminals take revenge on their juries?

Brett:

So, vengence can certainly be part of justice, if it's impartially carried out.

Total AOL to that! Absolutely right.

Back to Nelson:

Vengence does solve problems. Say that a woman kills her rapist.

Streets are safer! Yeah, she goes to jail and that sucks, but the streets are safer.

So, a problem is solved.

"Auctoritas, non veritas, facit legem."
"Authority, not truth, makes the law."
Thomas Hobbes

Michael

Xev,


And why dosen't it solve the problem? You assert, but do not prove.

The crime commited is not "discommited"...
If the criminal killed a person and the criminal goes to jail, this won't revive the person... :bugeye:


Vengence does solve problems. Say that a woman kills her rapist.

Streets are safer! Yeah, she goes to jail and that sucks, but the streets are safer.

So, a problem is solved.


She killed someone... she will never forget it... that's not a vengence, it's a present! The rapist stops suffering, she gets a bad conscience and the brother of the rapist won't like very nuch the situation... :p

In vengence, everyone loses. Violence only creates violence. :eek:

"The crime commited is not "discommited"...
If the criminal killed a person and the criminal goes to jail, this won't revive the person..."

By that logic there is zero way to solve the problem.



"The rapist stops suffering, she gets a bad conscience and the brother of the rapist won't like very nuch the situation..."

Mmmmmm, no. The woman will not necessarily have a bad conscience over her. For one, it is in our nature (as well as dear near every other animals) as animals that the mother will protect the child to all costs. She will have fullfilled her duty in killing the murderer/harmer of her child. Some women would have bad conscience after it, some wouldn't. Same way some men come back from war with a conscience and others don't. Personally, I don't think I would. If World War III ever comes about, I'm grabbin' a gun and going out to die on the frontlines. And what suffering of the rapist? Nelson I seem to remember you making this mistake before. Thinking that all criminals feel bad for what they did and have suffering inside them. It's just not true. However, I agree that killing a prisoner is the easy way out for them. Which is why I'm against the death penalty. Death is much easier than 25 years in prison.


"In vengence, everyone loses. Violence only creates violence."

Violence is sometimes necessary.

The crime commited is not "discommited"...
If the criminal killed a person and the criminal goes to jail, this won't revive the person...

Your point being?


She killed someone... she will never forget it... that's not a vengence, it's a present!

*Xev shrugs*

So what if she won't forget? There are plenty of things I'd like never to forget, like last friday night and where I put my keys.


The rapist stops suffering,

Nelson, are you mental? :bugeye:

He ain't suffering.

*Xev shrugs again*

So kill him in a extremely painfull way. An injection of NaOH of high molarity would do the trick, I expect.


she gets a bad conscience

I assure you that I myself would feel no more guilt than I would for shooting a rabid dog. Might even get some satisfaction out of having done a good deed.


and the brother of the rapist won't like very nuch the situation...

Fuck him then.


In vengence, everyone loses. Violence only creates violence.

And you've proven this soooooo well.

Tyler,


By that logic there is zero way to solve the problem.
Forgiveness... if doesn't solve it, at least don't create other...


Mmmmmm, no. The woman will not necessarily have a bad conscience over her. For one, it is in our nature (as well as dear near every other animals) as animals that the mother will protect the child to all costs. She will have fullfilled her duty in killing the murderer/harmer of her child. Some women would have bad conscience after it, some wouldn't. Same way some men come back from war with a conscience and others don't. Personally, I don't think I would. If World War III ever comes about, I'm grabbin' a gun and going out to die on the frontlines. And what suffering of the rapist? Nelson I seem to remember you making this mistake before. Thinking that all criminals feel bad for what they did and have suffering inside them. It's just not true. However, I agree that killing a prisoner is the easy way out for them. Which is why I'm against the death penalty. Death is much easier than 25 years in prison.

I agree...


Violence is sometimes necessary.

No. Anything that is bad is necessary. Is it necessary for your body to get sick? No. Violence is not necessary in society either...


Xev,


Your point being?

See above...


So what if she won't forget? There are plenty of things I'd like never to forget, like last friday night and where I put my keys.

...?


So kill him in a extremely painfull way. An injection of NaOH of high molarity would do the trick, I expect.

Why do you want someone to suffer?


I assure you that I myself would feel no more guilt than I would for shooting a rabid dog. Might even get some satisfaction out of having done a good deed.

In the moment you are doing... perhaps... but after...
Have you ever shouted to someone? Does it ever feel good after it happens?


And you've proven this soooooo well.

Read the history of humanity...:bugeye:

"Forgiveness... if doesn't solve it, at least don't create other..."

Hahahhahahaha! You are a very dumb boy!

Nelson, tell ya what. You and I and your three most loved ones will move to an individual island away from laws. There I will rape the women and then kill all three of them. Not only that, but I will make them suffer. And you have to watch.

Then you and I will come back to Canada. You don't think I shoudl be arrested eh? Even if I tell you straight out that I will definetly kill again.


"No. Anything that is bad is necessary. Is it necessary for your body to get sick? No. Violence is not necessary in society either..."

Sickness does serve purposes. Anyway, that's not important to the question. Violence isn't necessary?

Okay, well, I'm half Jewish. So if the Allied nations had decided violence was not to be used, I would not be alive. Thanks for killing me and my family Nelson.


"In the moment you are doing... perhaps... but after...
Have you ever shouted to someone? Does it ever feel good after it happens?"

I've physically beat someone. A guy at a party tried to force himself on a girl. I intervened and physically attacked him. Haven't regretted it to this day. And I haven't felt sorry for him ever. And I never once had a guilty conscience about it.

Forgiveness... if doesn't solve it, at least don't create other...

It sure as fuck causes problems if you have a bunch of rapists and murderers running about willy-nilly!


Why do you want someone to suffer?

*Xev weeps and bashes her head on her keyboard*

Nelson, I'm going to put this veeeeeeeery simply so that you can understand:

Rape is generally regarded as unpleasent. I think even one as inexperienced as yourself can understand this - it is rather ingrained in our culture.

Okay, maybe that was a bit confusing for you.

Rape = Bad.

That better?

*Xev prays to the Great Cthulhu that it is simple enough*


In the moment you are doing... perhaps... but after...
Have you ever shouted to someone? Does it ever feel good after it happens?

Nelson, HOW IN THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW HOW SHE WOULD FEEL AFTERWORDS?

I do not know what my reaction would be, so HOW IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD WOULD YOU?!

I do doubt that I would feel any guilt. I once had to have a violent dog euthanized after I was bitten. I felt regret, but no guilt.

I imagine my reaction would be simular.

'Nelson, HOW IN THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW HOW SHE WOULD FEEL AFTERWORDS?

I do not know what my reaction would be, so HOW IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS RIGHT WITH THE WORLD WOULD YOU?!"

Nelson has visited many countries. And he's an elder at 18 long years of age. So he knows everything abotu human nature.

In many species, the mother will [I]not[/I} protect the child at any cost. In some, the mother will sit back and whine while the new alpha male kills the infants of the previous alpha male. Why? If she fights, she will get killed and her genes end. If she accepts it, she gets to shag the new alpha male and her genes have a better chance of continuing.

I'll provide some book knowledge :):

our legal system is not based on justice. Our legal system is only an ordering of human relations. Justice is a nice side effect that sometimes occurs

Our punitive laws have two aspects: repression and prevention. Repression means that the punishment is supposed to hurt the criminal and provide vengeancd for the victims. Prevention means that since a criminal knows the law in advance, it will make him think twice before acting.

Of course our legal system should be based on justice, and every day great steps towards that ideal are made, along with at least as much steps away from that ideal.

The original meaning of the state according to some, was giving the monopoly of punishment to the state, again, to provide that minimal livable condition, not necessarily a system of justice.

actully you missed the two most important ones

rehab and protection

its THOSE that the judges are expected to put the most weight on

you're right. I guess I stayed in the vengeance department too much.

Thanks!

Tyler,

Won't even lose my time...


Xev,


*Xev weeps and bashes her head on her keyboard*

Nelson, I'm going to put this veeeeeeeery simply so that you can understand:

Rape is generally regarded as unpleasent. I think even one as inexperienced as yourself can understand this - it is rather ingrained in our culture.

Okay, maybe that was a bit confusing for you.

Rape = Bad.

That better?

*Xev prays to the Great Cthulhu that it is simple enough*


You don't know my life. You don't know with whom you are talking to... so don't judge me that fast...:bugeye:

Originally posted by Xev


So kill him in a extremely painfull way. An injection of NaOH of high molarity would do the trick, I expect.

Nelson has a good point.. You haven't answered it. Why would you want to create hurt? Is it not an evil impulse talking XeV?:bugeye:

You don't know my life. You don't know with whom you are talking to... so don't judge me that fast...

I'm not bloody judging you! I did not say a thing about you!

I'm simply saying that rape is a bad thing. I think that's a fairly true statement and can be easily confirmed logically and emotionally, right?!!

So like, duh Nelson!

Now, can we aknowledge this? Good. Now can we aknowledge that many women would desire vengence? Good, I knew we could!

Dispute over. I'm right.

ndrs:

Nelson has a good point.. You haven't answered it. Why would you want to create hurt?

Umm, can you read? I'm assuming that you can read, because you can type....

OH! I see. You simply chose NOT to read. Okay.

Now please go back and read my posts, in fact, read this one, where I outlined the fact that rape is unpleasent.

Happy happy now?


Is it not an evil impulse talking XeV?

Well, I don't share your strange sympathy for rapists, and I don't believe in evil except as a ethical construct, so no.

You are, of course, free to hug and cuddle and snuggle the pooor widdle wapists, but I do have the right to protect myself.

Evil impulse? Gee, I had thought that rape was fairly evil, but perhaps I'm old fashioned. Dinosaur in the age of mammels and all that. :rolleyes:

That wasnt Nelson's point ndrs.

He said killing a rapist would end his pain (becuase Nelson thinks all criminals suffer pain in remorse and guilt). Xev said 'so make it painful'.

Still why does she want to make it painful? You really believe that revenge is right...

We aren't debating painful killing. We were talking about revenge in general. And Nelson said that killing a rapist ends his pain. So Xev snapped back with the half-assed wit comment 'so make it painful'.

Almost Laurel And Hardy in it's comedic value.

Still why does she want to make it painful?

Because I think that rape is a terrible thing.

Painfull? Tyler hit the nail right on the head. Thank you Tyler.

Xev,


I'm simply saying that rape is a bad thing. I think that's a fairly true statement and can be easily confirmed logically and emotionally, right?!!

Really? Rape is bad...? I didn't know...?Have you ever been raped... btw...??:confused: :bugeye: :eek:


Now, can we aknowledge this? Good. Now can we aknowledge that many women would desire vengence? Good, I knew we could!

Not women... man would probably do too...:bugeye:
But this wouldn't solve anything...
Besides that, is again my philosophy of Love...


Tyler,


We aren't debating painful killing. We were talking about revenge in general. And Nelson said that killing a rapist ends his pain. So Xev snapped back with the half-assed wit comment 'so make it painful'.

The debate switched to painful killing with Xev's comment...
ndrs made the point...

Really? Rape is bad

Good, we agree. Well now we're actually getting somwhere! Hallelujah!


Not women... man would probably do too...

I should hope so.


But this wouldn't solve anything...

The streets would be safer.


Besides that, is again my philosophy of Love...

For you, yes, you follow that path. I've chosen to follow a different path.


The debate switched to painful killing with Xev's comment...
ndrs made the point...

ndrs made a point? Well I'll be damned, maybe there is a God!

Seriously, if his death is not painfull, one can make it painfull. I doubt I would, but some might.

Xev,


Good, we agree. Well now we're actually getting somwhere! Hallelujah!

I never said it was good...


The streets would be safer.

How safer?
Enough to be perceived...?:bugeye:

Still what about revenge?
xev you believe revenge is right? why? I understand future prevention, but killing painfully vs. killing doesn't do much good for prevention. I could associate revenge with lack of self control. That is what I mean with your evil impulses xev.

Absolutly agreed... :)

I never said it was good...

You said:


Really? Rape is bad

Which has been a point I've been trying to make absolutely clear.

In other words, we agree. It's a miracle! Praise Cthulhu! Ia-R'yleh!


How safer?
Enough to be perceived...?

Oh, one rapist down, coupla thousand to go safer. Such things make Xev happy-happy.

Like "The sun is shining and the birds are singing" happy. Not quite post-coital happy, but "Gee, I'm listening to Pachenbal's Canon in D Minor and this White Russian is really tasty and, oooh look, a cute guy!" happy. :)

I like it when the streets are safer. Much as I hate people, I like it when decent people are safe.

ndrs:

Still what about revenge?
xev you believe revenge is right? why? I understand future prevention, but killing painfully vs. killing doesn't do much good for prevention. I could associate revenge with lack of self control. That is what I mean with your evil impulses xev.

1: Learn to capitalize my name.

2: I didn't say that he should be killed painfully, now did I?

3: You don't know me. I like people, and I want them to be safe. If this is evil, I'm damn near satanic.

4: Fuck you.

Xev,

I was being sarcastic...


I like it when the streets are safer. Much as I hate people, I like it when decent people are safe.

One down won't make it any safer...
We have to solve the problem that creates those people...
Otherwise, they will always exist.
"Justice" is temporary. We need a permanent solution...

From "Teach or Children well", posted by orthogonal:

As silly as it may sound, my first notice of this phenomenon came with the unfortunate demise of Halloween trick-or-treating. My own generation fondly reminisces about those happy evenings when we’d cover five miles on foot with our friends, and return home with half of a pillow-slip filled with candy. Mom didn’t drive us house-to-house and walk behind us, right up to the door with an Uzi under her jacket. We didn’t put the apples we received under an X-ray machine to ferret out razor blades, and our candy didn’t go through a mass spectrometer to sort out the candy sure to be found laced with rat poison. One acquaintance drives her daughter only to houses owned by people she knows. Despite this precaution, she still destroys her daughter’s tick-or-treat candy and replaces it with her own store-bought candy! We love to remember the wonderful times we had, yet we wouldn’t dream of letting our own children have such fun. Everyone knows that unlike today, people could be trusted in the "good old days."

For how many years do we have this justice system? It seems that it didn't solve any problem... As I said before Xev...

From our "justice" system, only fear has been created...

Nelson:

Ah, this is good.


One down won't make it any safer...

One down makes it safer for one more person. :)

We'll just agree to disagree.


We have to solve the problem that creates those people...
Otherwise, they will always exist.
"Justice" is temporary. We need a permanent solution...

It's human nature. I have my own ideas on how to solve the problem but they are very vauge now.


For how many years do we have this justice system? It seems that it didn't solve any problem... As I said before Xev...

From our "justice" system, only fear has been created...

But Nelson, rape and murder are literally older than mankind, and certainly older than the justice system. I proved this to you with history once....:)

1: Learn to capitalize my name.

2: I didn't say that he should be killed painfully, now did I?

3: You don't know me. I like people, and I want them to be safe. If this is evil, I'm damn near satanic.

4: Fuck you.
1. I don't like capitals, they are just waste of ascii code space.
2.
So kill him in a extremely painfull way. An injection of NaOH of high molarity would do the trick, I expect. Can YOU read xEv?
3. Ok, I am happy for you.
4. I thought you just said that you like people? You saying that makes me feel good somewhy.. :o Seriously, you start reminding me of that M Knox idiot that was hanging around here.

Xev,


But Nelson, rape and murder are literally older than mankind, and certainly older than the justice system. I proved this to you with history once....

Prostitution is the oldest profession of humanity (I don't remember you telling me that... :D). This doesn't make something common in human nature. When we had no reason we were pretty much like children. When we started to reason we got confused with so much information and that's when right/wrong good/bad has born. That's what created all this history. It's a part of our evolution. Hopefully we are getting out of here soon... :)

Prostitution is the oldest profession of humanity (I don't remember you telling me that... ).

Actually, astronomy is. :)


This doesn't make something common in human nature.

Oh, but it does if all cultures share such behaviors.


When we had no reason we were pretty much like children.

When was this?

ndrs:

1. I don't like capitals, they are just waste of ascii code space.

Your posts are a waste of ASCII.


Can YOU read xEv?

That was in response to Nelson, nitwit with the mental capacity of a lobe-finned fish in the late stages of syphilis.


3. Ok, I am happy for you.

Thanks. I'm happy I have a sense of compassion too. Perhaps you should attempt to fake one.

I'm sure that you should ask your wife or girlfriend if you have one - the poor girl would be an expert on "faking it" after any period of time sleeping with you.


4. I thought you just said that you like people? You saying that makes me feel good somewhy.. Seriously, you start reminding me of that M Knox idiot that was hanging around here.

Mallory? You know, she did about the same thing with her sig as you did.....hmmm....

And she instantly disliked me without provocation as you do.....

However, Mallory had more balls than you could ever pretend to. And she was female!

So Pakistan and India are almost at war.

Maybe it is human nature to fight each other. Just look at all the friendly posts.

TS -
"Prostitution is the oldest profession of humanity (I don't remember you telling me that... ). "

Xev -
"Actually, astronomy is."


"Actually", no one can really say. My guess would be hunting. Somebody had to give those poor hungry 'stronomers and hookers something to eat....

Squid Vicious,

Xev- "Actually, astronomy is."

Squid Vicious- "My guess would be hunting."

Makes sense...
Eventhough what I read was prostitution...


Xev,


Oh, but it does if all cultures share such behaviors.
And Buddhists? And Atlantis? Indians...?
Btw... if rationalism is what causes it, when we invented language we were already rationalists, so there's no account of any civilization without those things (eventhough some have a little bit and others a lot...)


When was this?

Same answer above...

"This doesn't make something common in human nature."

Rape is part of human nature if you believe in genetics and evolution. The male of the species has instinct to reproduce (though brett would argue we just have instinct to fuck). I'll be the first to admitt it as a male here; that feeling you get when you see a really hot woman and just are attracted to her looks and you start thinking about sex and sex with her - that's the beginning of an instinct to have sex with her. Some people follow their instincts without thinking logically. That's what causes rape. A more logical and rational society which values other humans highly would eventually drive rape rates down to an extremely low level. Through the teaching of a child from a young age on to value other humans highly, children will grow to adults who maintain these values. More often than not, that is. Also, you have no proof that Buddhists never had rape. I will venture to guess that they have a very, very low rate though.



"When we had no reason we were pretty much like children."

You are a moron. Children can use logic. They just aren't very smart so most of them can't do advanced logic.


"no one can really say. My guess would be hunting."
"Makes sense...
Eventhough what I read was prostitution..."

Prostitution perhaps was the first job where someone exchanged a good for something. Hunting was just the production/gathering of goods. And I don't think astronomy paid much in the beginning.



"Or did he admit defeat and realize how stupid it is to pick flame-wars with Xev?"

No one battles the mighty Xev and lives to speak about it!!

Squid: I'd agree, but people hunted anyway. What about medicine?

Nelson:
"And Buddhists?"

Are fighting in Sri Lanka, and google "Shaolin Temple".

"And Atlantis?"

*Xev weeps*

Nelson, it did not exist.

"Indians...?"

Google "Aztec empire" and "Anasazi"

"Btw... if rationalism is what causes it, when we invented language we were already rationalists, so there's no account of any civilization without those things (eventhough some have a little bit and others a lot...)"

Then it is human nature, right?

BTW, where is your lap-dog, ndrs? Still obsessing about my sex life, or trying to find quark-sized condoms?

Or did he admit defeat and realize how stupid it is to pick flame-wars with Xev? :p

Ty:

Rape is part of human nature if you believe in genetics and evolution. The male of the species has instinct to reproduce (though brett would argue we just have instinct to fuck). I'll be the first to admitt it as a male here; that feeling you get when you see a really hot woman and just are attracted to her looks and you start thinking about sex and sex with her - that's the beginning of an instinct to have sex with her. Some people follow their instincts without thinking logically. That's what causes rape.

You are most likely right - however, how would this theory explain the rape of a child? And how would we test this theory?

It's a bit of a problem in psychiatry at the moment. Certain studies have shown that the amount of force used during rape is (sorry, cannot find such studies) is grossly disproportional to the amount "needed" to obtain consent.

Thus the model of rape as a means of achieving dominence developed. I think that this makes a fair amount of sense when you look at chimp troops and the way they use sex to express dominence.

HOWEVER! Your model is simpler.

I am interested in further studies, but we're off topic.


A more logical and rational society which values other humans highly would eventually drive rape rates down to an extremely low level.

Very, very true!


No one battles the mighty Xev and lives to speak about it!!

Awww, I'm blushing now. :)

Xev,


Google "Aztec empire" and "Anasazi"

Try "Toltecs"... and there were many peaceful others...


Then it is human nature, right?

If humans were ever like animals...no.

"Try "Toltecs"... and there were many peaceful others..."

Um. I just checked to make sure I was right and the Toltecs were a warrior people.



"If humans were ever like animals...no."

Um. Nelson. Animals do commit rape in a form. A male will just walk up and start mating with the female. In some animals it's the reverse, though. That's why the strongest mate. In some animals the female will attempt to shake off the male and only a strong male can stay on long enough.




By the way, another job well done in not replying to the majority of a post.

Try "Toltecs"... and there were many peaceful others...

They used language, hence reason....so your hypothesis fails.


If humans were ever like animals...no.

What? You just admitted that rationalism causes violence, and that rationalism has been around since the dawn of mankind! So yes you did!

Anyways, what became of ndrs? :cool:

Tyler:


Um. Nelson. Animals do commit rape in a form. A male will just walk up and start mating with the female. In some animals it's the reverse, though. That's why the strongest mate. In some animals the female will attempt to shake off the male and only a strong male can stay on long enough.

Yep. Chickens do, and chimpanzees do, and does this one species of flatworm, and so do dragonflys and monkeys and...

xev: ugh... You seem to mention me in every post now, have you really missed me that much? :p

Thanks. I'm happy I have a sense of compassion too. Perhaps you should attempt to fake one.

I'm sure that you should ask your wife or girlfriend if you have one - the poor girl would be an expert on "faking it" after any period of time sleeping with you.
What suggests to you my lack of compassion? The way you talk to Nelson, suggests you haven't got any. What does "faking it" have to do with compassion?

Mallory? You know, she did about the same thing with her sig as you did.....hmmm....
Well, this is the first forum website I participated in. Seems like a few people do it (including your favorite Tyler). The only difference is that other people do it for revenge, wickedness, while mine is mainly based on humour.

And she instantly disliked me without provocation as you do.....

However, Mallory had more balls than you could ever pretend to. And she was female!
I don't dislike you xev.. What suggested that to you? I don't think I started the "comments".
Why did Mallory have balls? Because she responded to your childish flamewar requests?
Tyler:

I'll be the first to admitt it as a male here; that feeling you get when you see a really hot woman and just are attracted to her looks and you start thinking about sex and sex with her
Really, is sex all you think about?

Some people follow their instincts without thinking logically. That's what causes rape. A more logical and rational society which values other humans highly would eventually drive rape rates down to an extremely low level. Through the teaching of a child from a young age on to value other humans highly, children will grow to adults who maintain these values.
I agree with first sentence. But I doubt valueing other humans has anything to do with it.. When a rapist sees a woman he wants to rape, he doesn't think about her personality, respect, etc... He wants to fuck. If his will is weak, he will follow that instinct, otherwise his will will stop him. So I think selfcontrol is a much more important aspect.

What suggests to you my lack of compassion? The way you talk to Nelson, suggests you haven't got any. What does "faking it" have to do with compassion?

Oh barf! This topic has turned into a discussion of the posters, not the issues.

I'm without compassion? Gag me with a fucking spoon! You're the one with more compassion towards the hypothetical rapist than for his victim.

Nelson? Jesus fuck man, do you know what sheer effort of will it takes for me to be nice to Nelson?


Well, this is the first forum website I participated in.

*Xev smiles*

A newb, eh? You should have said somthing...most newbs try to provoke flamewars. I would have been nicer.


I don't dislike you xev.

I should hope not! That'd be uber-pathetic.

Seriously, you do. And I don't care.

*Xev raises her glass high*

Here's to internet dislikes and flamewars! And may our disputes be a bit more interesting in the future!

Now I'm declaring peace, because you're too boring and intellectually dull for a good flamewar.

I'm without compassion? Gag me with a fucking spoon! You're the one with more compassion towards the hypothetical rapist than for his victim.
Did I say that? Did I even mean it anywhere? Please quote me...
I just didn't like your statement that revenge is justifiable.

A newb, eh? You should have said somthing...most newbs try to provoke flamewars. I would have been nicer.
Now I'm declaring peace, because you're too boring and intellectually dull for a good flamewar.
Wait, wait.. Did I actually participate in YOUR imagined flamewar?
I've been there with IRC when I was 14-16 and I've done it along with the flood wars. I just can't be bothered to do it anymore. I have to work now, and I'm trying to use whatever time is left for something useful.
While you are just trying to start another one. ;)

Seriously, you do. And I don't care.
I don't know you enough to really dislike you. Time will tell. :bugeye:

Tyler,


Um. I just checked to make sure I was right and the Toltecs were a warrior people.

*sight...:rolleyes:

Dream warriors... Warriors of Peace... call the way you want...
The word warrior has a conotation of fighting for freedom in their Philosophy... I don't know why you misinterpret everything...


Um. Nelson. Animals do commit rape in a form. A male will just walk up and start mating with the female. In some animals it's the reverse, though. That's why the strongest mate. In some animals the female will attempt to shake off the male and only a strong male can stay on long enough.

Children is a better example, as I said before...


By the way, another job well done in not replying to the majority of a post.

...?


Xev,


They used language, hence reason....so your hypothesis fails.

Of course they used language to communicate!!!:bugeye:
...Read their philosophy and you will find out that after reason they discovered the Truth... READ it... It's a Philosophy based on Love (as usual...)... Try it before judging it...:bugeye: :eek:


What? You just admitted that rationalism causes violence, and that rationalism has been around since the dawn of mankind! So yes you did!

...? Oh well... whatever... :o

Dream warriors... Warriors of Peace... call the way you want...
The word warrior has a conotation of fighting for freedom in their Philosophy... I don't know why you misinterpret everything...

Nelson dear, read this: http://www.elbalero.gob.mx/kids/history/html/conquista/tolte.html


Among the Toltecs, war took on a greater significance than it had for the cultures of the Classic period. Professional soldiers appeared in Tula, and were organized in sects or brotherhoods that identified them with certain animals: eagle, jaguar or coyote warriors. Evidence also shows that the number of human sacrifices increased; this was especially the case when prisoners of war were taken. This militaristic spirit was a characteristic of all the cultures of the Postclassic period.


Of course they used language to communicate!!!
...Read their philosophy and you will find out that after reason they discovered the Truth... READ it... It's a Philosophy based on Love (as usual...)... Try it before judging it...

Sounds interesting. What books do you recommend?

ndrs:

I don't know you enough to really dislike you. Time will tell.

Umm, evil, without compassion, unfeeling, so on....

You think I could care less? Ego man, ego! My mother hated me......why on earth would I care whether some dickless wonder on the 'net does? :bugeye:

Xev, dear, read those:
http://www.toltecyoga.com/bks-toltec.htm
http://www.joydancer.com/further/
http://www.masteryofawareness.com/



Sounds interesting. What books do you recommend?
"The Mastery of Love"
and
"The Four Agreements"
both by Don Miguel Ruiz

I recommend "The Mastery of Love" first... But the introduction of the other talk about how the Philosophy came into being. You might begin with this one. Check out their beginnings... (you can read inside...) ;)

Here are them:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1878424424/103-8579068-3632627
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1878424319/qid=1023255254/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-8579068-3632627

Love,
Nelson

This one seems good too...
If you want to know it all... :D
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1878424483/qid=1023255596/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-8579068-3632627

I misinterput everything?

"*sight...

Dream warriors... Warriors of Peace... call the way you want...
The word warrior has a conotation of fighting for freedom in their Philosophy... I don't know why you misinterpret everything"

Here's a couple of resources for you:

"The advent of the Toltec also marked the rise of militarism in Mesoamerica"
- http://www.crystalinks.com/toltecs.html

"There many gods also led to a common practice of sacrifice which included humans."
"Sources indicate that their downfall was due to two main conflicting ideologies. Half of the Toltecs worshipped and followed a militaristic diety while the others followed a peaceful God"
- http://loki.stockton.edu/~gilmorew/consorti/1gcenso.htm

"The macabre tzompantli, a wall on which the heads of sacrifice victims were hung, was built here for the first time."
"Among the Toltecs, war took on a greater significance than it had for the cultures of the Classic period. Professional soldiers appeared in Tula, and were organized in sects or brotherhoods that identified them with certain animals: eagle, jaguar or coyote warriors. Evidence also shows that the number of human sacrifices increased; this was especially the case when prisoners of war were taken. This militaristic spirit was a characteristic of all the cultures of the Postclassic period"
- http://www.elbalero.gob.mx/kids/history/html/conquista/tolte.html

"In Tula, Toltec society grew increasingly militaristic. The knightly orders of jaguar and eagle warriors and the practice of massive human sacrifices are likely to have begun there"
- http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/hpostclassic1.html


Want more?




"Children is a better example"

Ugh Nelson. Please. I beg of God that you can think logically enough to realize why children don't commit rape.

I'm talking about Philosophy... not History (IF those sites are relieable...:o )

"I'm talking about Philosophy... not History"

Hoorah. In actuality though the Toltecs were a war loving people.



"IF those sites are relieable..."

I hope that's a joke.

Tyler...
Do like Xev... read about it, THEN criticize...

I did. That's how I know they were a warrior-people who conquered many lands, slaughtered their enemies and sacrificed humans to hang their heads up in the temple.

I'm talking about philosophy, not history...
And I'm almost sure that those stories are lies...:bugeye:

Read the books and you will see...

"I'm talking about philosophy, not history..."

- "Try "Toltecs"... and there were many peaceful others..."
- "Dream warriors... Warriors of Peace... call the way you want..."



"And I'm almost sure that those stories are lies..."

Oh my fucking god. Are you really this dumb? How fucking stupid do humans get???? Sorry for the swearing but this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard, hands down. Wait wait, no claiming that as a virgin with no experience you know sex is.

Two of the links were made by the government of Mexico. Another one was from a U.S. college. Can you give me one fucking reason why they would lie about this? What the fuck do they gain? They don't gain anything!!!! You have basically just said that for no purpose whatsoever history text books, a University and THE GOVERNMENT OF MEXICO (WHICH IS WHERE THESE THINGS HAPPENED) ARE ALL LIERS!!!!! DO YOU REALIZE HOW DUMB YOU SOUND?

Do you ever studied their philosophy?
For how long do you know that a civilization called Toltecs ever existed...??

Read it first... then criticize...

I have not read the book you suggest. Though I will likely now pick up a copy of it.

And I don't care what their philosophy is Nelson. We have many philosophies today that in no way are followed. Communism as a philosophy works perfectly. In practice it doesn't.

Just like in reality, your Toltecs were war-loving, not peace-loving.



"For how long do you know that a civilization called Toltecs ever existed...??"

You mean how long have I known about the Toltecs? Um, since I was about 13 and I started getting into history big time.

"Do you ever studied their philosophy?
For how long do you know that a civilization called Toltecs ever existed...??"

These Toltecs you speak of??? :bugeye: :bugeye:
They are now in Hell! How can you praise them??!!???:rolleyes: :eek: :eek: :confused:

Yes Fox, I agree! For it says in the HOLY BIBLE:

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And

Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting
fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Yes! Fox is right, Nelson, they are damned!

Fox,


These Toltecs you speak of???
They are now in Hell! How can you praise them??!!???

Do you really know them??:bugeye:
They praised Love...:o :eek: :bugeye: