I am considering this question in depth, and value input on it.

From my own thoughts: Honesty is the easiest thing to remember for the teller, as it lines up precisely with their own memory. Honesty is not frequently desired by the listener though. People seem to want to be told how great they are, especially when they fail.

There is also the fact that honesty is entirely subjective and based on individual's perception, thus the possibility that more than one honest answer to a given question exists. For example, the identification of the "best" of anything invariably leads to a lengthy discussion.

What do you think?

In some cases I think honesty is not the best policy esp if I am going to hurt someones
feelings that I care about. I mean if it is something important yes tell the truth. If is something trivial that may hurt their feelings I wouldn't be so blunt.

But how do you know which is which? If my wife puts on clown make up and asks seriously if she looks pretty, and I know she is going out, do I save her feelings, or prevent her embarassment? This is just an example, but you get my meaning. As the teller, it seems to be in your best interests to tell the truth.

But how do you know which is which? If my wife puts on clown make up and asks seriously if she looks pretty, and I know she is going out, do I save her feelings, or prevent her embarassment? This is just an example, but you get my meaning. As the teller, it seems to be in your best interests to tell the truth.

I know what you are saying, and it would depend on what they asked me. In your example I would say to tell her the truth in a NICE way. Maybe suggest she put on a little too much. Don't come right out and say, no you don't look pretty you like a clown. I guess what I am saying is you can tell the truth when asked but sometimes it should be done gently not to hurt their feelings. Some ppl are too honest and don't give a crap if their answers hurt the persons feelings or not.

I suppose it varies in the modern world.

If you want to be well-liked, lying is the best policy. Few people really want the truth, regardless of what they say.

But if you want to like yourself, then tell the truth. You won't have many friends, and the friends you do have won't ask you many questions, you can feel good about yourself.

I don't know what the big deal is about such things as telling your wife that she's fat if she asks you. She already knows she's fat, it ain't like it's going to be news to her!

Baron Max

I don't know what the big deal is about such things as telling your wife that she's fat if she asks you. She already knows she's fat, it ain't like it's going to be news to her!

Baron Max

You sweet talker you. The women must just love ya :p

I suppose it varies in the modern world.

If you want to be well-liked, lying is the best policy. Few people really want the truth, regardless of what they say.

But if you want to like yourself, then tell the truth. You won't have many friends, and the friends you do have won't ask you many questions, you can feel good about yourself.

Baron Max

A man after my own heart :thankyou:

You sweet talker you. The women must just love ya :p

A lot of them do, Shorty, but none of them are fat or ugly! :)

I still say ...if a woman asks you if she's fat, she already knows the answer. So if you say she isn't, she knows instantly that you're a fuckin' liar!!

Baron Max

A man after my own heart

If I ever got your heart, SAM, I stomp on it, stomp it into the ground, then cover it up with dog and sheep shit!

Baron Max

If I ever got your heart, SAM, I stomp on it, stomp it into the ground, then cover it up with dog and sheep shit!

Baron Max

Awwwwww!!! Its good to have you back Baron :D

I still say ...if a woman asks you if she's fat, she already knows the answer. So if you say she isn't, she knows instantly that you're a fuckin' liar!!

Baron Max

True, that is why women shouldn't ask those kinds of questions. If I don't want to know the answer to something I just don't ask it.

It is funny though you gotta admit. A woman knows she looks like crap in something. She asks her man and he says yeah it doesn't look very good.
Then she stomps off thinking what a prick, when all along she knew it looked like shit. Women are strange creatures, but then again so are men.

If I ever got your heart, SAM, I stomp on it, stomp it into the ground, then cover it up with dog and sheep shit!

Baron Max

:roflmao: Indeed it is great to have you back! :D

If I ever got your heart, SAM, I stomp on it, stomp it into the ground, then cover it up with dog and sheep shit!

Baron Max


I like it, you talk like a true Republican Christian. :m:

So if someone says,"Am I being an ass hole?" You say yes if you want to be liked, yes, how abnormal, to be their friend, and no, if you want to be their friend and liked? How awkward. The truth hurts, but is often hilarious. How about the answer, yes, but that's just your nature?

Honesty is waaaaaay over rated.

And there is a huge difference between honesty and being a tactless ass.

Do these pants make me look fat?
Honest:
No they don't. Your fat makes you look fat.
Tact:
They are not flattering. I like you better in...

Honesty is waaaaaay over rated.

And there is a huge difference between honesty and being a tactless ass.

Do these pants make me look fat?
Honest:
No they don't. Your fat makes you look fat.
Tact:
They are not flattering. I like you better in...

Orleander, do you know, really know, whether you're fat or not? I mean, can you look in a mirror and tell whether you look fat or not?

If you can't, then you probably have the "right" to ask someone his opinion. But at that point, do you really want to be lied to about it????

Baron Max

How about the answer, yes, but that's just your nature?

So you're trying to sugar-coat the truth? Or are you trying to hide behind some innane comment in the hopes that he's so stupid you didn't hear your answer?

Baron Max

Orleander, do you know, really know, whether you're fat or not? I mean, can you look in a mirror and tell whether you look fat or not?

If you can't, then you probably have the "right" to ask someone his opinion. But at that point, do you really want to be lied to about it????

Baron Max

is it lying to say "they aren't flattering, you look better in..."

I know I'm not fat because my doctor says so. But I damn well know I'm not as thin as I used to be and it gets harder to maintain. I can't remember the last time I asked my husband if something I was wearing made me look fat. Probably after our daughter was born. I can't even imagine him saying "yeah, you are fat" even though it was probably true at the time.

I guess he liked getting laid more than telling me the truth.

Ass holes usually are amazingly stupid.

Ass holes usually are amazingly stupid.

LOL, you sound like my husband when he's apologizing.

LOL that is the sort of thing I say to wifey pooh to get back in her good graces.

LOL that is the sort of thing I say to wifey pooh to get back in her good graces.

You tell your wife you are an asshole?

I have been known to, especially after proving I am one lol

I have been known to, especially after proving I am one lol

Good for you, at least you can admit it. I think a lot of men won't admit it even if they know they were acting like one. I admit to acting like a bitch on rare occasion. :p

I have been known to, especially after proving I am one lol

My husband does too, but I have to give it a day when he's not all defensive trying to come up with 100 reasons why its not his fault. :rolleyes:

shorty- good for you
orleander- It's a tough pill for us men to swallow. :p

But you seem determined to swallow that pill over and over.

shorty- good for you


Yeah and he usually says, Oh you got your period that explains it. ;)

Boy, this thread turned into some male bashing pretty quick.
As if you ladies are never wrong about anything. :p

True, that is why women shouldn't ask those kinds of questions. If I don't want to know the answer to something I just don't ask it.

It is funny though you gotta admit. A woman knows she looks like crap in something. She asks her man and he says yeah it doesn't look very good.
Then she stomps off thinking what a prick, when all along she knew it looked like shit. Women are strange creatures, but then again so are men.
I couldn't agree with you more, Shorty.
The way I see it is that if a woman asks a man those kinds of questions, and expects him to tell her what she wants to hear (i.e. possibly lie to her), then IMO, he has free reign to lie whenever he wants. You can't expect someone to be selectively honest or dishonest, but alas, a lot of people are like that.

Orly, I agree with being tactfully honest, but what if she is obese to the point where NOTHING looks good on her ass? Then you are either forced to tell her the truth or lie to her.

Oh, good to see you back, Baron.

I couldn't agree with you more, Shorty.


Hey Mike, we always did agree on most things. :D

Hey I said I admit when I am being a bitch. :p

Are you back? It is definitely more interesting with you and Baron back in the mix.

Hey Mike, we always did agree on most things. :D

Hey I said I admit when I am being a bitch. :p
And believe me, while I'm usually very cordial and polite, I can be a major prick sometimes(but usually when someone provokes me). Although the warped cynical side of me loves to push the buttons of people who desperately deserve it. Haha.

Are you back? It is definitely more interesting with you and Baron back in the mix.
Haha. Yep. Glad Baron is back. Time to stir up the pot some more!
J/K. I'm going to be more level headed from now on. It's too stressfull getting all worked up from a interweb forum. Haha.

Is honesty the best policy?

Honesty, if it is actually honesty and not an excuse for meanly brandishing opinions as if they were truth, is a good policy.

But it should not be the only policy.

There are other things in a healthy relationship which need consideration, such as compassion for the other person.

Mr. Hamtastic But how do you know which is which?

There are no clear cut answers. What is best is to establish a history of trust, compassion and honesty so that when feelings do get hurt, and it happens, it is easier to recover.

Mr. Hamtastic If my wife puts on clown make up and asks seriously if she looks pretty, and I know she is going out, do I save her feelings, or prevent her embarassment?

I established early on that I like all women natural instead of made up, and her in particular case not only does she look better as her self, make up deteriorates the skin so she will say looking better and make up tastes bad [bleah!]. This was basically her opinion as well and so we came to an accord long before there was a highly charged event with her already committed to a particular look.

If she was already committed to a look and looking for reassurance I would consider as objectively as possible if she was up to snuff by societal standards and act accordingly. If I really thought the make up job botched I would suggest that it might need some retouching and try to point her in the right direction, but ultimately it is her call and I'm going to back her as best I can (clown white? how about goth?). If there is fall out then we can work on better next time.

honesty is always the best policy, however there are ways to tell someone they look like a clown or they look fat in they're favourate skirt or dress.

And believe me, while I'm usually very cordial and polite, I can be a major prick sometimes(but usually when someone provokes me). Although the warped cynical side of me loves to push the buttons of people who desperately deserve it. Haha.


Haha. Yep. Glad Baron is back. Time to stir up the pot some more!
J/K. I'm going to be more level headed from now on. It's too stressfull getting all worked up from a interweb forum. Haha.

Well welcome back....time to start stirring.. :p
I know you can be a prick, I sensed that a long time ago. At least
I have not been your target yet. :D

Discretion is the best policy.

It depends on the circumstances and we should always be flexible and on guard against dogmatism and hubris.

In philosopher mode, we should believe in Truth as our highest ideal and we should always tell the truth categorically as claimed by Socrates and Kant.

In war mode, we should be a Machiavellian Prince, and when the Nazis come to the door asking where your Mother is, you should be prepared to use the brain that God designed and lie to their face, then, when they turn their backs, stab them.

OilIsMastery In war mode, we should be a Machiavellian Prince, and when the Nazis come to the door asking where your Mother is, you should be prepared to use the brain that God designed and lie to their face, then, when they turn their backs, stab them.

Interesting. Just to be clear, you hold in case of war that there is no principle you should fail to compromise if needed to achieve your goals? I'm nether agreeing nor disagreeing, I just want to make sure you weren't just being glib and that's what you actually meant.

The best policy is to be discreetly honest.
Don't be brutally honest, do it diplomatically. If they don't get the hint, even after you've taken them aside. Then fire at will.

The best policy is to be discreetly honest.
Don't be brutally honest, do it diplomatically. If they don't get the hint, even after you've taken them aside. Then fire at will.

My boyfriend always says to be brutally honest with him. I find it hard to do sometimes because I don't like hurting the feelings of the ppl I love.

planning a life is always being a conscious of life existence out of life and that is impossible for a human that has no power on life and never the knowledge of

honesty in all circumstances is honesty towards oneself from his living body allowing that conscious to be alive too and start to be active as a real conscious over its body moves on living truths ground of earth

Although I haven't analyzed each and every post in this thread...

It seems as if most people don't want to be lied to, but seem to want the option to lie to others.

Now I'm not really very smart, but that don't sound quite fair, does it?

Baron Max

Most things in life aren't fair. Sometimes I try to avoid questions ppl ask me or beat around the bush. Sometimes yes I just flat out lie to spare someones feelings.



Like for instance someone if someone recently had a baby. If someone (lets say the mom or a family member) says to you, isn't he just the cutest thing. You are thinking to yourself you must be kidding, with that huge nose and messed up face.

Baron, what would your response to the question be?

Although I haven't analyzed each and every post in this thread...

It seems as if most people don't want to be lied to, but seem to want the option to lie to others.

Now I'm not really very smart, but that don't sound quite fair, does it?

Baron Max
You can count me as NOT one of those people, Baron.
I try not to be brutally honest, but I don't sugarcoat stuff either. Unfortunately, my honesty has gotten me in trouble before.
Here's an example convo with an ex.
She comes home w/ a new haircut (noticeably shorter than before). She stands there expecting me to say something.

Me: I see you got a haircut.
Her: (smiling) Uh huh. (the way she is enthusiasticly looking at me, you can tell she is expecting me to comment on it. I don't.)
few seconds of silence....
Her: Well, do you like it?
Me: It's ok. I liked your hair longer.
Her: Well fine then. (and walks off, obviously flustered)
Me: (unpauses the video game I was playing and continues playing the game)
Her: (a few minutes later, comes back into the room) I can't believe you don't like my hair.
Me: (gives her an 'are you stupid?' look) I never said I didn't like your hair. I said I liked your LONG hair better. What part of that eluded your perception?
Look, it's your hair. You do with it what you want. Do you really want to argue about this?

She finally realized it was not worth arguing about. Now, if her hair did look bad, I would tell her. I'm not going to lie about something like that.

Ladies, AFAIC:
"If you ask a question you really don't want an honest answer to, expect an answer you don't want to hear."

Me: I see you got a haircut.
Her: (smiling) Uh huh. (the way she is enthusiasticly looking at me, you can tell she is expecting me to comment on it. I don't.)
few seconds of silence....
Her: Well, do you like it?
Me: It's ok. I liked your hair longer.
Her: Well fine then. (and walks off, obviously flustered)
Me: (unpauses the video game I was playing and continues playing the game)
Her: (a few minutes later, comes back into the room) I can't believe you don't like my hair.
Me: (gives her an 'are you stupid?' look) I never said I didn't like your hair. I said I liked your LONG hair better. What part of that eluded your perception?
Look, it's your hair. You do with it what you want. Do you really want to argue about this?



Holy Shit!!! We have had the exact same conversation. He isn't keen on when I get my hair cut either esp when I got quite a bit cut off once. It pretty much went down EXACTLY how you explained it. :eek:

Holy Shit!!! We have had the exact same conversation. He isn't keen on when I get my hair cut either esp when I got quite a bit cut off once. It pretty much went down EXACTLY how you explained it. :eek:
Yeah, I've thought for quite awhile that myself and Nietzshefan have very similar mentalities.
Maybe that's why we all get along so well? :shrug: Haha.

Yeah, I've thought for quite awhile that myself and Nietzshefan have very similar mentalities.
Maybe that's why we all get along so well? :shrug: Haha.

Yeah for sure, read what you just said about Bill gates...

Yeah for sure, read what you just said about Bill gates...
Well, he and I are both I.T. techs, who work with Windows. Most all techs know that Windows has the reliability of an American car.

I colored my hair and it took my husband 3 days to notice I was a redhead. I was pissed! When he finally noticed I started ranting and he said "With a body like yours why would I ever notice your hair?" and then he grabbed butt.

Took the wind right out of my sails.
bastard lol

Yeah well men are good at kissing ass when they know they fucked up. They know just what to say to get themselves out of the dog house. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't because it is so transparent.

Baron Max It seems as if most people don't want to be lied to, but seem to want the option to lie to others.

Is that actually how you read my position?

I was considering the matter further and I'm not sure "honesty" as most people use the term is useful.

Originally the term implied one was honorable and fair in their dealings as well as truthful, but lately it is more and more just an excuse to justify callousness, like in the haircut example.

My sweety and I are very straight forward in our dealings with each other and we seek to temper that even further with unnecessary kindness.

There is no punishment, no doghouse, no bitch, no bastard, no mean teasing, no revenge, no snarkiness, no sabotaging, no making fun of, or any of that crap.

My sweety is the best. Being honest is something I do to help and because it forms a good basis for the relationship.

I am considering this question in depth, and value input on it.

From my own thoughts: Honesty is the easiest thing to remember for the teller, as it lines up precisely with their own memory. Honesty is not frequently desired by the listener though. People seem to want to be told how great they are, especially when they fail.

There is also the fact that honesty is entirely subjective and based on individual's perception, thus the possibility that more than one honest answer to a given question exists. For example, the identification of the "best" of anything invariably leads to a lengthy discussion.

What do you think?

Dishonesty destroys all rationale and reason, for the one who is being dishonest and the one who is the receiver. If you wish to remain rational and reasonable, you MUST be honest.

I was considering the matter further and I'm not sure "honesty" as most people use the term is useful.

Originally the term implied one was honorable and fair in their dealings as well as truthful, but lately it is more and more just an excuse to justify callousness, like in the haircut example.
Care to elaborate that? The haircut example was mine.
Justify callousness? Just exactly how did you come to that conclusion?
Please tell me how that is bad?
Look dude, if you want to blow sunshine up your 'sweetie's' ass, to save her feelings, and your honesty, then go right ahead. But I'm not a liar, I never have been, never will be.
If someone asks me a question, I'm going to give them an honest answer. And you obviously skipped over the part where I said that while I'm not goign to sugarcoat it, I won't be totally tactless and assholish about it either.
I'm sorry you fail miserably to understand that.

And WTF does this mean????
If this isn't sarcasm, you are pretty much agreeing with the way that I go about things. It more or less supports the 'haircut example'.
My sweety and I are very straight forward in our dealings with each other and we seek to temper that even further with unnecessary kindness.

There is no punishment, no doghouse, no bitch, no bastard, no mean teasing, no revenge, no snarkiness, no sabotaging, no making fun of, or any of that crap.

My sweety is the best. Being honest is something I do to help and because it forms a good basis for the relationship.

There is no punishment, no doghouse, no bitch, no bastard, no mean teasing, no revenge, no snarkiness, no sabotaging, no making fun of, or any of that crap.



None whatsoever? Never? Come on now...

Are you newlyweds or something? One of you must be giving in most of the time. Let me guess you never argue either? What about disagree, do you at least disagree about things? :rolleyes: Are you one of these YES DEAR, OK DEAR types?

Care to elaborate that? The haircut example was mine.


As I said that was a carbon copy of the same conversation that took place in my house yrs ago.

It could have been a lot worse. You/he could have come right out and said OMG what did you do? It looks like crap, why would you go and do that? etc etc.

Basically he didn't want to say he loved it for my sake because he didn't. He prefers long hair and my hair before I left was mid back length. When I got back it was just below my shoulders. I knew driving home he wasn't going to be gung ho about the new length. So I wasn't going to push the questions on him either. I already knew what the answers would be. I did however want him to think I still looked good even with the shorter hair. He did say it still looked good, BUT liked the longer hair before. It is not like he treated me different after that. He didn't look at me weird or disgusted.

Like Mike said if you really don't want the answers and you already might suspect what they might be DON"T PUSH.

...If someone asks me a question, I'm going to give them an honest answer. And you obviously skipped over the part where I said that while I'm not goign to sugarcoat it, I won't be totally tactless and assholish about it either.....

How long has your longest relationship with a girlfriend been?

mikenostic Care to elaborate that? The haircut example was mine.
Justify callousness? Just exactly how did you come to that conclusion?

OK this is how I read what you describe: You see she has a new haircut and she is obviously excite about it and hoping to please you. You initiate the beginning of a comment and then leave her hanging. She tries to prompt you for more and you shoot her enthusiasm down. Seeing her walk off flustered, you let her know just how unimportant she is in your life by going back to your video game. She tries one last time to recover the situation and you insult her.

Just on what you offer here, you come off as a callous jerk with no interest in her besides possibly a convenient lay.

mikenostic But I'm not a liar, I never have been, never will be.

OK I'll grant the benefit of the doubt, you aren't a liar.

But are you some one who is a good person to live with?

Truthfulness doesn't mean some one doesn't employ deceit and subterfuge nor does it mean they aren't callous, mean or just uncaring.

Honesty is a starting point, not the ending point.

mikenostic And you obviously skipped over the part where I said that while I'm not goign to sugarcoat it, I won't be totally tactless and assholish about it either.
I'm sorry you fail miserably to understand that.

Your example fails to align with your claim. In those cases I go with the example.

mikenostic you are pretty much agreeing with the way that I go about things. It more or less supports the 'haircut example'.

Not as you present it. Your example has you valuing your mere opinion about her hair and your video game more than her. For me that would be a lie because I value my sweety more than my opinions about hair style or some video game.

But it worked out.

You have the video game.

I have my sweety.

Swarm what would you have said if you REALLY disliked her new haircut and she wanted your opinion?

"If you ask a question you really don't want an honest answer to, expect an answer you don't want to hear."

Gospel truth!

If you don't want the answer, don't ask the fucking question.
If you are looking for someone to lie to you and stroke your fragile ego, you should know better than to turn to me.

"Do these jeans make me look fat."
"Yeah, kinda. The other ones were much more flattering."


It reminds me of a joke I heard a comedian say once.
His girlfriend asked if the jeans make her ass look big and he said, "No, you ass makes those jeans look big!"

shorty_37 None whatsoever? Never? Come on now...

As close to none as humanly possible and the rare occasion when it sneeks in we stop it really quick.

She was a bit dubious about it right in the very beginning, but got on board fast when she saw how great it works.

We really are a team, each working for the other as best we can.

shorty_37 Are you newlyweds or something?

Ten years and three kids.

shorty_37 One of you must be giving in most of the time.

Ha! That'll be the day. We both have strong personalities and strong opinions.

shorty_37 Let me guess you never argue either? What about disagree, do you at least disagree about things?

Argue is as hot as we ever let it go and that is the signal its time to take a break and maybe take a drive or go for a walk. That happens maybe once a year. I honestly can't think of the last one. Disagreements we just work out. Usually we can find common ground, but sometimes the one who cares least will just let it go.

shorty_37 Are you one of these YES DEAR, OK DEAR types?

Neither of us are that way.

Once we were at a friend's party and one of the people said "you two have such big egos, how can you stand to live with each other?"

So I told him: "We are really, really nice to each other."

shorty_37 Swarm what would you have said if you REALLY disliked her new haircut and she wanted your opinion?

I can't imagine REALLY disliking any possible haircut some one might have. I've friends with everything from butt length dreads to shaved with a rat tail. Pink, yellow, orange, purple, leopard print, various shapes, lengths, symmetric and asymmetric. I was just amused when my 3 year old gave herself a trim. I enjoy oddity and variety.

Getting worked up about things like that just isn't how I work, but for the sake of the discussion I would say "wow that's a surprise. Let me think about it for a bit. Tell me what you think about it?" And then I'd try to understand how she sees it and give it some time to sink in. But its her hair and I respect her choices with it and she consults me so its just not very likely.

None whatsoever? Never? Come on now...

Are you newlyweds or something? One of you must be giving in most of the time. Let me guess you never argue either? What about disagree, do you at least disagree about things? :rolleyes: Are you one of these YES DEAR, OK DEAR types?

I think it is sad that this is surprising.
I've been with my wife for over 4 years and can definitely say the same.
We've had plenty of great arguments/debates/discussions but never a single nasty word, cheap shot or personal dig.
It's a simple matter of maturity and treating the person you love with respect.
It's really not difficult to do at all.

As far as I am concerned, love is a verb.
To love someone is to treat the person with respect, consideration, compassion and understanding.
If you aren't doing those things, you don't love the person.

My boyfriend always says to be brutally honest with him. I find it hard to do sometimes because I don't like hurting the feelings of the ppl I love.

No truth you could say to me would hurt my feelings more than being lied to.

This is why I don't lie.

I colored my hair and it took my husband 3 days to notice I was a redhead. I was pissed! When he finally noticed I started ranting and he said "With a body like yours why would I ever notice your hair?" and then he grabbed butt.

Took the wind right out of my sails.
bastard lol

This isn't meant to be an insult, rather a simple example.

This is why someone like me should not marry someone like you.
Honest people generally don't get along very well in close quarters with insecure people who need a lot of validation.

My wife is strong, confident and as honest as I am.
She would have to be, or I would break her.

...Honest people generally don't get along very well in close quarters with insecure people who need a lot of validation....

I don't think I need a lot of validation, but yeah I do need some. I do need to be noticed. I think it's why I work so damn hard at work.
Childhood baggage and all that. :rolleyes:

...As far as I am concerned, love is a verb.
To love someone is to treat the person with respect, consideration, compassion and understanding.
If you aren't doing those things, you don't love the person.

I agree. I've never understood purposely hurting the person you love. I have a hard time with "sorry, I said that in the heat of the moment, I didn't mean it"

What is being compared here is not the difference between couples who lie or tell the truth, but the difference between couples who are dysfunctional or not.

and....what is your opinion on some of the couples?

mikenostic Care to elaborate that? The haircut example was mine.
Justify callousness? Just exactly how did you come to that conclusion?

OK this is how I read what you describe: You see she has a new haircut and she is obviously excite about it and hoping to please you. You initiate the beginning of a comment and then leave her hanging. She tries to prompt you for more and you shoot her enthusiasm down. Seeing her walk off flustered, you let her know just how unimportant she is in your life by going back to your video game. She tries one last time to recover the situation and you insult her.
Are you serious? Really?
Let me elaborate. First off, if we are at that point in our relationship, we will have already discussed ad nauseum in the past that I prefer long hair. She will have long since had the knowledge that I prefer longer hair over short hair. So when she goes and gets her hair cut short, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT I LIKE LONGER HAIR OVER SHORTER HAIR, then comes home and proceeds to ask me a question she already knows the answer to, she gets the answer she gets.
As for the video game. I was playing a video game when she came home. When she walked in, before the dialogue that I mentioned above started, I paused the video game, greeted her with a smile and asked her how her day was. (so please, can the accusations of me being calloused).
If she wanted to please me, she would have left it the way it was. We both knew she got her haircut for herself, not me.

Just on what you offer here, you come off as a callous jerk with no interest in her besides possibly a convenient lay.
See response above ^^^

But are you some one who is a good person to live with?
That's honestly a subjective question. I'm sure most everyone is a good person to live with...depending on who the person they're living with is.
Some may find me very easy to live with, some may not. Likewise for you, some may feel you are a good person to live with, some may think you're a total prick.
The bottom line is, and I guess I'll have to reiterate this. I'm not going to be cold and calloused about my honesty, but I'm not going to sugarcoat anything. If a girl is going to act like a 'martyr' as Orly put it in another post, then I am not her guy. I've met quite a few women as of late that say it like it is, that I would love to date. The problem is all of them are taken because (and you fail to see this)those type of women are highly sought after by men because they get sick of telling women what they want to hear for fear of them getting mad at them.

Truthfulness doesn't mean some one doesn't employ deceit and subterfuge nor does it mean they aren't callous, mean or just uncaring.
I'll agree with you there. But I am a 'what you see is what you get' person. I don't make false pretenses about who I am. As I mentioned, I do not want a girl that's going to ask me loaded questions or expect me to tell them what they want to hear. Likewise, I'd hope if she has an issue with me, that she would be as honest about it as I would be with her. So, while I might be a bit blunt for some, I am fair about it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Honesty is a starting point, not the ending point.
Being tactfully and respectfully honest is the ending point. At no point should you dishonestly tell somebody what they want to hear. If you tell someone something that is not the truth, you are dishonest; you are a liar. There is no selective lying IMO. It's like being pregnant, you either are, or you aren't; no middle ground.

mikenostic you are pretty much agreeing with the way that I go about things. It more or less supports the 'haircut example'.

Not as you present it. Your example has you valuing your mere opinion about her hair and your video game more than her. For me that would be a lie because I value my sweety more than my opinions about hair style or some video game.
You're looking WAAAAAY too deep into this. It was a mere example, further explained above. I just happened to be playing a video game when she walked in. If I had been washing dishes, if I had been cooking, if I had been watching TV, if I had been folding laundry it would have been very similar.

But it worked out.
Actually it didnt' work out, because she was one of those types that needed to be told what she wanted to hear. It's not her fault, it's not my fault. We were just different.


You have the video game.
No, I had the video game. I don't play video games anymore. I have other things to do.

I have my sweety.
And I have my freedom. I stated last night that there are much worse things than being alone. I'd much rather be solo than with some woman who perpetually gets on my nerves. I can afford to be patient. If the right girl comes along, great. If she never does. Oh well. I'm not going to settle for something. I'm happier by myself.

So I'd really appreciate it if you would curb the accusations of me being the bad guy here, just because I like things a certain way. K thx bye.


Orly, my longest relationship was just under two years. I probably would have married that girl, but I found out she had fooled around with one of my best friends when we first started dating. I broke up with her very shortly after that. I have a zero tolerance policy for cheating, and even less when it comes to cheating with friends. I can think of few things that are a bigger betrayal than fooling around with an s.o.'s friend.

Did you get rid of the friend as well?

This isn't meant to be an insult, rather a simple example.

This is why someone like me should not marry someone like you.
Honest people generally don't get along very well in close quarters with insecure people who need a lot of validation.
Dammit! I just spent 15 minutes in my post above explaining that to swarm when this post right here sums it up nicely. Thanks raven!! :p

...swarm, that's kinda what I was getting at. I didn't meant to come across as a jackass, I'm just a similar type of person that raven is.


My wife is strong, confident and as honest as I am.
She would have to be, or I would break her.
This is the type of woman that I need as well.

Did you get rid of the friend as well?
Not exactly. We are on speaking terms(even though I don't talk to him that much anymore), but it did put a huge strain on our friendship. See, I didn't find out about this until well over a year after it happened. Being left in the dark for so long and feeling like I was the last one to know about it was a big part of the hurt/betrayal.
If I had found out about it within a few weeks of it happening, I can assure you there would have been a fist fight.
Men should know that their friends' girlfirends (ex or not) are off-limits.
And women should know that messing around with their boyfriend's friends are the ultimate betrayal/slap-in-the-face.

I probably would have done the opposite.

I think honesty should be handled with diplomacy, compassion, tact. Ideally. I've met a lot of people in my life who use honesty as an excuse to be mean and hurtful, like as long as its true, fuck you even if it ruins your mind to hear it like this. If youre in the position to be able to provide a truth to someone, its a good thing to be aware of the person youre considering telling truth to if possible. Thats ideal of course. Knowing you can just say it to a person who you know well handles truth straight without issues is fine. If its someone youre aware of having insecurity, over sensitivity or troublesome issues around a subject its good if you posses the kind of skills that make it possibly to somehow tell the person the truth in a way that wont harm them. When you dont know the person at all, its probably best to try and be gentle about it. thats what i think anyways :P

and....what is your opinion on some of the couples?

I can clearly see the "Lost Child" and the "Mastermind" dysfunctional roles being played out between at least two sets of couples here.

I also see two cases of functioning couples, who are well beyond in understanding the subterfuge and shallowness the other dysfunctional couples exhibit.

I probably would have done the opposite.
Opposite of what?

Men should know that their friends' girlfirends (ex or not) are off-limits.

I never bought that.

I dated a ggirl for many years.
We slpit and she ended up marrying my best friend and I was the best man at their wedding.

Once we split, we split - it's really as simple as that.
It was a little odd in the beginning, but neother of them betrayed me in any way. Whether or not they were together had nothing to do with me at all.

I can clearly see the "Lost Child" and the "Mastermind" dysfunctional roles being played out between at least two sets of couples here.....

I found that one and I can see it in a person here. I can't find Mastermind. Do you have a link?

edit - never mind. I found it.

Although I haven't analyzed each and every post in this thread...

It seems as if most people don't want to be lied to, but seem to want the option to lie to others.

Now I'm not really very smart, but that don't sound quite fair, does it?

Baron Max

hmmm.. Perceptive..

Another element of hypocrisy in the human psyche ?..

I think most people want to lie to others in order to confirm their judgement of the person whom their lying to.

shorty_37 None whatsoever? Never? Come on now...

As close to none as humanly possible and the rare occasion when it sneeks in we stop it really quick.

She was a bit dubious about it right in the very beginning, but got on board fast when she saw how great it works.

We really are a team, each working for the other as best we can.

shorty_37 Are you newlyweds or something?

Ten years and three kids.

shorty_37 One of you must be giving in most of the time.

Ha! That'll be the day. We both have strong personalities and strong opinions.

shorty_37 Let me guess you never argue either? What about disagree, do you at least disagree about things?

Argue is as hot as we ever let it go and that is the signal its time to take a break and maybe take a drive or go for a walk. That happens maybe once a year. I honestly can't think of the last one. Disagreements we just work out. Usually we can find common ground, but sometimes the one who cares least will just let it go.

shorty_37 Are you one of these YES DEAR, OK DEAR types?

Neither of us are that way.

Once we were at a friend's party and one of the people said "you two have such big egos, how can you stand to live with each other?"

So I told him: "We are really, really nice to each other."

shorty_37 Swarm what would you have said if you REALLY disliked her new haircut and she wanted your opinion?

I can't imagine REALLY disliking any possible haircut some one might have. I've friends with everything from butt length dreads to shaved with a rat tail. Pink, yellow, orange, purple, leopard print, various shapes, lengths, symmetric and asymmetric. I was just amused when my 3 year old gave herself a trim. I enjoy oddity and variety.

Getting worked up about things like that just isn't how I work, but for the sake of the discussion I would say "wow that's a surprise. Let me think about it for a bit. Tell me what you think about it?" And then I'd try to understand how she sees it and give it some time to sink in. But its her hair and I respect her choices with it and she consults me so its just not very likely.

Cool, thanks for the reply. It sounds like you 2 have got the marriage thing figured out pretty good and are good for eachother.
Sounds like Raven has a good marriage going too. congrats. :)

We've had plenty of great arguments/debates/discussions but never a single nasty word, cheap shot or personal dig.
It's a simple matter of maturity and treating the person you love with respect.
It's really not difficult to do at all.



I think you both have to be on the same wave length with some things. It depends on the personality of you both. We give eachother personal digs all the time, but it's who we are. We both have a crazy sense of humor sometimes, and we don't do it purposely to hurt the other person. We have been together so long that we GET eachother, where some outsiders might say OMG..you said that. Like this for instance I posted in the other thread.....

How do we treat eachother...:scratchin:

Well I will give you a conversation we had yesterday.

Me: My neck is bothering me again

Nietzsche: Maybe you are going to have to get a breast reduction, these hammers are too big. (grabbing them)

(without a pause, I replied)
Me: Maybe you should have your dick removed, because you won't be needing it anymore.

Then we just both burst out laughing....:D


We can also be very stubborn when it comes to arguments because we are so different when it comes to How to Argue. I can't say we haven't used nasty words, but I REALLY try not to say things that I don't mean in the heat of the moment. But I also know not to ask questions, I don't want to hear the answers to. I don't want him to lie to me, so if I kinda know what he is thinking already but don't want to hear it out loud, I just don't ask. With him I am pretty much brutally honest, even when I don't want to be, because that is what he wants from me.

I can clearly see the "Lost Child" and the "Mastermind" dysfunctional roles being played out between at least two sets of couples here.

I also see two cases of functioning couples, who are well beyond in understanding the subterfuge and shallowness the other dysfunctional couples exhibit.

hmmmmmmmm I am going to take a guess here. I am part of the dysfunctional couple right? :D

I can clearly see the "Lost Child" and the "Mastermind" dysfunctional roles being played out between at least two sets of couples here.

I also see two cases of functioning couples, who are well beyond in understanding the subterfuge and shallowness the other dysfunctional couples exhibit.

Its dysfunctional to be a Mastermind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastermind_(Role_Variant))? Or am I looking in the wrong area?

.....Masterminds is a matter of expert opinion rather than the result of actual testing of the named individual.

* Isaac Asimov[3]
* Niels Bohr[1]
* William F. Buckley[3]
* Dwight D. Eisenhower[1]
* Ulysses S. Grant[1]
* Stephen Hawking[1]
* John Maynard Keynes[1]
* Lise Meitner[1]
* Isaac Newton[1]
* Friedrich Nietzsche[1]
* Peter the Great[1]
* Ayn Rand[1]

I think you both have to be on the same wave length with some things. It depends on the personality of you both. We give eachother personal digs all the time, but it's who we are. We both have a crazy sense of humor sometimes, and we don't do it purposely to hurt the other person. We have been together so long that we GET eachother, where some outsiders might say OMG..you said that. Like this for instance I posted in the other thread.....

How do we treat eachother...:scratchin:

Well I will give you a conversation we had yesterday.

Me: My neck is bothering me again

Nietzsche: Maybe you are going to have to get a breast reduction, these hammers are too big. (grabbing them)

(without a pause, I replied)
Me: Maybe you should have your dick removed, because you won't be needing it anymore.

Then we just both burst out laughing....:D
My wife and I joke with each other and rib each other often as well.
That's an ENTIRELY different thing than lashing out at someone personally in anger, taking advantage of their vulnerabilities in retribution or any other malevolent personal attacks which serve to undermine the trust and confidence necessary for a functional, respectful relationship with someone you love.

I know, and sometimes we are both guilty of getting too worked up during an argument. :( and I tend to PUSH and PUSH when he really doesn't want to talk about it, then it goes bad.
I am the type of person when something is really bugging me I have to get it out RIGHT NOW. He is more he needs some space when things get heated and wait till later.

We don't have the arguing thing down to a science yet, but we are pretty good at making up. :)

I never bought that.

I dated a ggirl for many years.
We slpit and she ended up marrying my best friend and I was the best man at their wedding.

Once we split, we split - it's really as simple as that.
It was a little odd in the beginning, but neother of them betrayed me in any way. Whether or not they were together had nothing to do with me at all.

I understand.
I guess it just depends on the person. I'm pretty strict about that stuff. If you are my friend and you start dating an ex of mine, especially when you know that I would not approve of it, it is going to cost you a friendship. And believe me, good friends are hard to come by. But I guess if a friend did that to you, he/she isn't much of a friend at all. IMO, there are six fuckin billion people on this planet, you surely can find someone else not associated with me.

If I was with her I cared about her and wanted her to be happy.
Likewise, I want my friends to be happy.
If we are not together anymore, if her and my friend would be happy together, I'm not much of a friend if I try to stand in their way.

I don't own either of them, and I have no say or stake in who she sees anymore, even if it DID bother me.
If it bothered me, I would deal with that discomfort for the sake of my two friends being happy.

Tell me, do you smash your toys and throw them in the garbage when you don't want them anymore rather than give them to someone who would want and appreciate them?

mikenostic Are you serious? Really?

Do not take this too personally. I only have what you are telling me to work with. There is no context or history or side knowledge of either of you as people. Read what you said from my perspective and see if you still don't see how I came to those conclusions.

mikenostic we will have already discussed ad nauseum in the past that I prefer long hair.

Whose hair is it?

My preferences and opinions are not set in stone. They are not the law of gravity. I have tremendous influence over them. It is often the case that something I don't like at first blush grows on me over time. I'm going to at the very least give her time to make her case and let me feelings settle.

You are acting you your opinion is the word of god.

Finally the bottom line is that its her hair, her choice and I respect her opinion. I'm willing to entertain the notion my opinion in this matter could be wrong.

Finally I can think of few things less important to argue over ad nausium. That really sounds like you are being a control freak and trying to dictate her hair styles.

mikenostic We both knew she got her haircut for herself, not me.

whose hair is it?

mikenostic That's honestly a subjective question. I'm sure most everyone is a good person to live with...depending on who the person they're living with is.

I don't share your opinion. People who habitually exhibit destructive interpersonal behaviors are not good people to live with and eventually any relationship with them will sour.

mikenostic those type of women are highly sought after by men because they get sick of

A relationship is both people. The behaviors are interlocking.

mikenostic So, while I might be a bit blunt for some, I am fair about it.

Being fair is good in most situations, but it is not sufficient in a long term relationship.

In a relationship you are too close to the other person and too involved personally and emotionally in the decisions to be fair. You just can't be objective and you can't seem objective to the other person. Just being fair will result in hurt feelings and a sense of opposition with each other.

You have to be unfair as often as possible in favor of the other person. Don't sweat the little things. Be magnanimous. This will build a history of trust in each other so that when there is a real sticking point you know the other person is not just in it for themselves. This also facilitates an atmosphere of cooperative problem solving and builds a history of good feelings.

mikenostic Being tactfully and respectfully honest is the ending point. At no point should you dishonestly tell somebody what they want to hear. If you tell someone something that is not the truth, you are dishonest; you are a liar. There is no selective lying IMO. It's like being pregnant, you either are, or you aren't; no middle ground.

You are pretending everything is a clear cut matter of fact and that you are infallible. This is not the case. You are only dishonest if you are purposefully misleading another. There is also being mistaken. Then there are things which are not cut and dried. Opinions for example. I would recommend broadening your horizons and developing some nuance to your thinking.


mikenostic Orly, my longest relationship was just under two years. I probably would have married that girl, but I found out she had fooled around with one of my best friends when we first started dating.

Two years means you've never got past the infatuation stage. Basically you've never had a relationship which lasted past getting to know each other.

I have a very strict policy. My sweety can do what she wants with who she wants. She's an adult and I trust her to do what she needs to.

shorty_37 Then we just both burst out laughing....

Our rule is if the other person doesn't laugh, it wasn't funny.

The thing is not about talking a certain way, its about not tearing into each other, being mean and building resentment.

Personally we give personal builds instead of digs. Same idea. Different direction.

Swarm, don't take this personally either, but you sound about as exciting as dirt.

one_raven If I was with her I cared about her and wanted her to be happy.
Likewise, I want my friends to be happy.
If we are not together anymore, if her and my friend would be happy together, I'm not much of a friend if I try to stand in their way.

I don't own either of them, and I have no say or stake in who she sees anymore, even if it DID bother me.
If it bothered me, I would deal with that discomfort for the sake of my two friends being happy.

Exactly.

nietzschefan Swarm, don't take this personally either, but you sound about as exciting as dirt.

I suppose it depends on what you are looking for.

Excitement is not something we have to simulate by poking each other.

We prefer to go on adventures for example or explore. We find plenty of excitement and enjoyment in being so close to each other and in developing and sharing our respective talents. Also because we are close and trust each other, I know specifically what she finds most exciting. Our interplay can be very intense.

We've just been discussing how to get a solid foundation, but that's just the start of the home, not the end.

mikenostic Are you serious? Really?

Do not take this too personally. I only have what you are telling me to work with. There is no context or history or side knowledge of either of you as people. Read what you said from my perspective and see if you still don't see how I came to those conclusions.
I don't need to read into it from your perspective. I already have plenty, if not enough people that DO see things from my perspective.

mikenostic we will have already discussed ad nauseum in the past that I prefer long hair.

Whose hair is it?
It is most certainly hers, thus the response I gave you above, in a previous post. It's HER hair, she can do with it what she wants.
You also contradict yourself by asking the question above after you asked this question in a previous post:

OK this is how I read what you describe: You see she has a new haircut and she is obviously excite about it and hoping to please you.
If she's hoping to please me, and she knows damn well that I like longer hair, then why cut it noticeably shorter? The mentality in that statement just doesn't make sense.
"Her wanting to please me" does not go hand in hand with "It's my hair and I'll have it cut the way I want." You seem to switch stances with the professionalism of a politician.
As far as the mentality, I fully believe that it is her hair, she can cut it the way she wants, but if that IS going to be her mentality, if she asks me my opinion, if SHE initiates it, then I will give her my honest opinion. If that's not what she wants to hear, there are plenty of guys out there that will put up with shit I wouldn't even think of, for their company. More power to them.


You are acting you your opinion is the word of god.
Well, in the case of it being me, and what happens to me, then metaphorically I guess it is. You have to look out for number 1....WITH THAT SAID, I will never mistreat someone else for my benefit. If I'm in a relationship, I treat my partner very well. I have relationship deal breakers just like anyone else. They might not be the same as some others, but that doesn't make them any less valid.


Finally the bottom line is that its her hair, her choice and I respect her opinion. I'm willing to entertain the notion my opinion in this matter could be wrong.
I respect her opinion too, as I mention above. Like I said, she can cut it how she wants, and even make it known, but she can't simultaneously ask me my opinion and get mad if I don't say it's the greatest. Well she can, but she's wrong.
AND, where? Where did I say that I didn't like her hair. If you'll retrace your steps, you will see that I said, "I liked your long hair better." I never said her short hair didn't look good. She was a beautiful girl and she looked good in any length she had it. I just liked her long hair (about mid back length) the best of them all.

Finally I can think of few things less important to argue over ad nausium. That really sounds like you are being a control freak and trying to dictate her hair styles.
I think you're looking way too deep into this. I brought this story up as a mere example.
Here's more of it.
She came over to me a few minutes later and asked me to pause the video game, very politely. I did. She apologized for snapping. I told her what I mentioned above; that she looked good in anything. I just like the long hair better. She understood.

One night I was out of town and was supposed to call her. I was going to call her around 11, but I was so exhausted and preoccupied with some stuff I was working on and I forgot and fell asleep.
I called her the next morning. Needless to say she was pissed. This one was my fault. I gave her a sincere apology. She cooled down and all was good.

mikenostic We both knew she got her haircut for herself, not me.

whose hair is it?
See response above to the same exact question.

I don't share your opinion. People who habitually exhibit destructive interpersonal behaviors are not good people to live with and eventually any relationship with them will sour.
Yep, and those types of people are usually on heavy medication, or at least should be.
As far as me, I have my standards, everyone does. Mine might be different or higher than some, but they're no less valid.

mikenostic those type of women are highly sought after by men because they get sick of

A relationship is both people. The behaviors are interlocking.
While I agree with you there, since I'm straight and don't date men, the only man's behavior that I'm concerned with is my own.

mikenostic So, while I might be a bit blunt for some, I am fair about it.

Being fair is good in most situations, but it is not sufficient in a long term relationship. If that were even close to the case, I'd be dying alone.
But I've seen several relationships with friends, etc. where the woman was just as fair as the guy, some fairer. They exist, so that tells me it IS sufficient. It's just that some people aren't fair. I'll leave those people who don't mind them being unfair...people like you.

In a relationship you are too close to the other person and too involved personally and emotionally in the decisions to be fair. You just can't be objective and you can't seem objective to the other person. Just being fair will result in hurt feelings and a sense of opposition with each other.
See response above.

You have to be unfair as often as possible in favor of the other person. Don't sweat the little things. Be magnanimous. This will build a history of trust in each other so that when there is a real sticking point you know the other person is not just in it for themselves. This also facilitates an atmosphere of cooperative problem solving and builds a history of good feelings.
See response above.

mikenostic Being tactfully and respectfully honest is the ending point. At no point should you dishonestly tell somebody what they want to hear. If you tell someone something that is not the truth, you are dishonest; you are a liar. There is no selective lying IMO. It's like being pregnant, you either are, or you aren't; no middle ground.

You are pretending everything is a clear cut matter of fact and that you are infallible. This is not the case. You are only dishonest if you are purposefully misleading another. There is also being mistaken. Then there are things which are not cut and dried. Opinions for example. I would recommend broadening your horizons and developing some nuance to your thinking.
AFAIC, honesty/dishonest IS clear cut. It's like 2+2=4. Not 5, not 7.89766. FOUR. If you do not tell someone the truth, you are lying. Omitting something and leaving information out of statements is neither honest nor dishonest, however.
While I appreciate the advice in bold above, I think I'll be just fine the way I are.



mikenostic Orly, my longest relationship was just under two years. I probably would have married that girl, but I found out she had fooled around with one of my best friends when we first started dating.

Two years means you've never got past the infatuation stage. Basically you've never had a relationship which lasted past getting to know each other.
Look, I knew how I felt about that girl. I looked at it, as I always do, from a logical point of view before an emotional one. I loved her though. So,given that, it was easier to see her flaws (we all have them), and see if I could deal with them. I knew her well enough to know I wanted to be with her.
But when I found out what happened, it was like a switch was flipped.
Like I said, I have no tolerance for cheating. It's pretty well known that you have little or no control over who you fall in love with; I'm pretty sure the same goes for falling out. At least for me it is.

I have a very strict policy. My sweety can do what she wants with who she wants. She's an adult and I trust her to do what she needs to.
I am happy for you.

I found these online here: http://www.k-state.edu/counseling/topics/relationships/dysfunc.html

Answer "Yes" to any of the questions below = dysfunctional. Don't answer them here if you don't want to, but certainly answer them with a conscience.

1. Do you find yourself needing approval from others to feel good about yourself?

2. Do you agree to do more for others than you can comfortably accomplish?

3. Are you a perfectionist?

4. Or do you tend to avoid or ignore responsibilities?

5. Do you find it difficult to identify what you're feeling?

6. Do you find it difficult to express feelings?

7. Do you tend to think in all-or-nothing terms?

8. Do you often feel lonely even in the presence of others?

9. Is it difficult for you to ask for what you need from others?

10. Is it difficult for you to maintain intimate relationships?

11. Do you find it difficult to trust others?

12. Do you tend to hang on to hurtful or destructive relationships?

13. Are you more aware of others' needs and feelings than your own?

14. Do you find it particularly difficult to deal with anger or criticism?

15. Is it hard for you to relax and enjoy yourself?

16. Do you find yourself feeling like a "fake" in your academic or professional life?

17. Do you find yourself waiting for disaster to strike even when things are going well in your life?

18. Do you find yourself having difficulty with authority figures?

[I].....Masterminds is a matter of expert opinion rather than the result of actual testing of the named individual.

Mastermind - The opportunist who capitalizes on the other family members' faults in order to get what he/she wants.

I found these online here: http://www.k-state.edu/counseling/topics/relationships/dysfunc.html

Answer "Yes" to any of the questions below = dysfunctional. Don't answer them here if you don't want to, but certainly answer them with a conscience.

1. Do you find yourself needing approval from others to feel good about yourself?

2. Do you agree to do more for others than you can comfortably accomplish?

3. Are you a perfectionist?

4. Or do you tend to avoid or ignore responsibilities?

5. Do you find it difficult to identify what you're feeling?

6. Do you find it difficult to express feelings?

7. Do you tend to think in all-or-nothing terms?

8. Do you often feel lonely even in the presence of others?

9. Is it difficult for you to ask for what you need from others?

10. Is it difficult for you to maintain intimate relationships?

11. Do you find it difficult to trust others?

12. Do you tend to hang on to hurtful or destructive relationships?

13. Are you more aware of others' needs and feelings than your own?

14. Do you find it particularly difficult to deal with anger or criticism?

15. Is it hard for you to relax and enjoy yourself?

16. Do you find yourself feeling like a "fake" in your academic or professional life?

17. Do you find yourself waiting for disaster to strike even when things are going well in your life?

18. Do you find yourself having difficulty with authority figures?

I knew it, I'm dysfunctional. What a relief. I thought I was just weird. :D

hmmmmmmmm I am going to take a guess here. I am part of the dysfunctional couple right? :D

Come now, shorty, it wouldn't be fair for me to name names, so to speak. I can only recommend those who would want to know answer the above questions. Of course, I suspect many could answer 'yes' to a couple of those questions, and still be in a functional relationship, considering that there may be other reasons for those particular results. However, most dysfunctional relationships will encapsulate many of these attributes in order to quantify as dysfunctional.

I knew it, I'm dysfunctional. What a relief. I thought I was just weird. :D

Would that be the dysfunctional relationship you have with your cats?

Would that be the dysfunctional relationship you have with your cats?

The cats are more advanced, they think once they groom themselves, get a good meal find someone to hump and reproduce with, they've done everyone a big favor.:bugeye:

The cats are more advanced, they think once they groom themselves, get a good meal find someone to hump and reproduce with, they've done everyone a big favor.

Are you advancing yourself by quantifying your cats needs or have you finally given up on reproducing with them?

Are you advancing yourself by quantifying your cats needs or have you finally given up on reproducing with them?

You think bestiality is an advancement?:bugeye: I shudder to think of what other progress you have made. :eek:

Mastermind - The opportunist who capitalizes on the other family members' faults in order to get what he/she wants.

Whoa! I know a lot of women who are Masterminds and most of them are Moms.

Originally Posted by mikenostic

I don't need to read into it from your perspective. I already have plenty, if not enough people that DO see things from my perspective.

Well sure if coming to mutual understanding isn't your goal then you've got your posse, what more do you need?"

If she's hoping to please me, and she knows damn well that I like longer hair, then why cut it noticeably shorter?

Because people aren't terribly rational, particularly with emotions and people close to them. I suggest getting used to this or getting used to living alone.

From what you said, she is giving all the signals of hoping you'll be pleased.

If I'm in a relationship, I treat my partner very well.

That is the claim, but what you presented and your relationship lengths don't back you up.

AND, where? Where did I say that I didn't like her hair.

Don't play stupid.

AFAIC, honesty/dishonest IS clear cut. ... If you do not tell someone the truth, you are lying. Omitting something and leaving information out of statements is neither honest nor dishonest, however.

The best dishonesty is done solely with the truth. You current position is very naive. You don't have privy access to "the truth." You are working with the same limits every one else is. If you in good faith tell some one something that is not true, you aren't lying, you are just mistaken. If you tell some one the full truth with the intent to deceive, you are dishonest. Lying is a matter of intent to deceive.

I knew her well enough to know I wanted to be with her.

Yet you dumped her.

I would say that honesty is the best policy to some extent. For example, if you're not sure that you want to get into a relationship with someone, you should tell them that, but it might be a bad idea to tell them that it is because you don't find them attractive.

In general, I would say that honesty is usually the best policy, but there are times when I would say that it isn't the best policy, at least from a 1st person perspective. From a 3rd person perspective, I would say that honesty is not the best policy. Society functions better if people lie to each other. If everyone decided one day to tell everyone the truth about everything, we'd have some serious issues.

I honestly think you can never be honest enough.
Everyone should be honest.
Or that's my advice, anyway - if everyone is honest, I can get away with lying to everyone way easier.

Society functions better if people lie to each other. If everyone decided one day to tell everyone the truth about everything, we'd have some serious issues.

I couldn't disagree more.

Tell me how lying makes it function better.
What serious issues would we have? :bugeye:

:shrug:

Honesty is the best policy, but sometimes a lie can function for good.

If everyone decided one day to tell everyone the truth about everything, we'd have some serious issues.

I think perhaps there's a lot of truth to that statement. Human societies have functioned for so long with lies intertwined with the truth, that if we were to all begin telling the full truth about everything, it would throw things into chaos and confusion.

I hate to say something like "Human society is built on a foundation of lies", but that's probably not far from the truth, is it?

Society functions better if people lie to each other.

I doubt that we can say that with any certainty ....because it's my opinion that there's never been a perfectly honest society on Earth. Do you know of any? In all of human history?

Baron Max

I am considering this question in depth, and value input on it.

From my own thoughts: Honesty is the easiest thing to remember for the teller, as it lines up precisely with their own memory. Honesty is not frequently desired by the listener though. People seem to want to be told how great they are, especially when they fail.

There is also the fact that honesty is entirely subjective and based on individual's perception, thus the possibility that more than one honest answer to a given question exists. For example, the identification of the "best" of anything invariably leads to a lengthy discussion.

What do you think?
Depends on your goals.
Given my own priorities, not necessarily at all.
Safety is a big priority of mine, for example. And I will cast honesty out the window to save my ass or my kid's or a family member's...etc.
Also there is the issue of honesty itself.
I notice that men, especially, but also women, confuse the words they say with being honest or lying.
But one can mislead with the truth, often especially oneself. It can work great in fights.

I went into this once here...
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1985183&highlight=honest#post1985183

Everything we do is a lie. If people didn't believe in lies, nobody would have the motivation to do anything.

Well sure if coming to mutual understanding isn't your goal then you've got your posse, what more do you need?"



Because people aren't terribly rational, particularly with emotions and people close to them. I suggest getting used to this or getting used to living alone.

From what you said, she is giving all the signals of hoping you'll be pleased.



That is the claim, but what you presented and your relationship lengths don't back you up.



Don't play stupid.



The best dishonesty is done solely with the truth. You current position is very naive. You don't have privy access to "the truth." You are working with the same limits every one else is. If you in good faith tell some one something that is not true, you aren't lying, you are just mistaken. If you tell some one the full truth with the intent to deceive, you are dishonest. Lying is a matter of intent to deceive.



Yet you dumped her.

I think we're done here swarm. I cannot continue a conversation with someone who lacks the mental capacity/diversity to see and understand things from others' perceptive, and one who condescends an opinion because it doesn't match their own.

I knew it, I'm dysfunctional. What a relief. I thought I was just weird. :D
You aren't dysfunctional. I answered yes to more than one.
I then went and looked back and reread them and quite a few of them are complete bullshit.

11. Do you find it difficult to trust others?
This is a question that cannot be answered as is, at least not fairly. Define [i]others[i]. Relatives? Friends? Acquaintences? Strangers?
I'm sorry, but if someone wants my trust, they have to earn it.
I fail to see the dysfunctionality in that.

Honesty is the best policy, but sometimes a lie can function for good.
I can agree with you there somewhat, but not where someone's feelings are concerned. Tell a lie to spare someone's feelings, and you risk hurting them more (pissing them off as well probably) if they find out you told them a lie to begin with.

I can agree with you there somewhat, but not where someone's feelings are concerned. Tell a lie to spare someone's feelings, and you risk hurting them more (pissing them off as well probably) if they find out you told them a lie to begin with.

People don't generally lie to spare other's feelings, rather to spare their own - sparing the other's feelings is an easy out.
They are trying to find the easy way out, because being honest isn't always easy.

"Am I going to die?" People don't want to be the one to break that news.
"Did you cheat on me when we were together?" People don't want to be the bad guy.
"Do these jeans make me look fat?" If they were truly wanting to spare the other's feelings, they would honestly, tactfully, answer that question, rather than allowing this person to buy the pants that do not flatter them, when that is an obvious concern of theirs. People, again, don't want to be the bad guy.
"Do you find me attractive?" "Do you find HER attractive?" "Do you like my new haircut?" "Was it good for you, too?"

White lies are not to spare the victim's feelings, pride and image - they are to spare the TELLER'S feelings, pride and image.

mikenostic
quite a few of them are complete bullshit.

Agreed. It looks like it is mainly designed to drive him business by causing suggestible people to question themselves.

I doubt that we can say that with any certainty ....because it's my opinion that there's never been a perfectly honest society on Earth. Do you know of any? In all of human history?

Baron Max

I would say the Inuit were a pretty honest society. From what I have read about them.

Think about it ....isn't it really odd, strange for us to be actually defending lies?

I mean, like, what the fuck has happened to us that we can actually defend telling lies ...and yet cry and whine when, say, politicians lie to us? So, aren't those politicians doing exactly what we're defending ...telling lies?

Think about it ....are we all really wanting to defend all the liars of the world?

Ooh, wait, I know ....we'll just be fuckin' hippo-critters about it, right? ...LOL!

Baron Max

I would say the Inuit were a pretty honest society. From what I have read about them.

So you read some silly book about some group of people that we know virtually nothing about, and you believe it? Hmmmmm.

I suppose you're one of those people that believes all those radical Muslim terrorist websites, right? :)

Baron Max

So you read some silly book about some group of people that we know virtually nothing about, and you believe it? Hmmmmm.

I suppose you're one of those people that believes all those radical Muslim terrorist websites, right? :)

Baron Max

They used to abandon members of their society who were aggressive or jealous, to keep harmony in the society, they left their infants to die in igloos if there was famine or food sources ran low.

I can't think of any person getting more honest to themselves than that. Can you?

They used to abandon members of their society who were aggressive or jealous, to keep harmony in the society, they left their infants to die in igloos if there was famine or food sources ran low.

Prove it, SAM. Either that or quit stating things that you don't know as if they were facts!

Oh, wait, that's sorta' what your job is, right ....as a paid propagandist for the Palestinian Muslim terrorists???

Baron Max

Prove what? That they regulated aggression in members of their tribes or left babies in igloos?

Babies:
However, a common response to desperate conditions and the threat of starvation was infanticide, which did sometimes entail abandoning an infant in hopes that someone less desperate might find and adopt the child before the cold or the wildlife killed the child.All Inuit tribes practiced some form of infanticide.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Inuit

I cannot find a reference for the tribe members being abandoned, but you can look up "The Long Exile"

http://www.amazon.com/Long-Exile-Betrayal-Survival-Arctic/dp/1400040477

Prove what? That they regulated aggression in members of their tribes or left babies in igloos?

Babies: ....[bullshit website listed]

So, once again, you believe everything that you read?

I suppose you also believe all those radical, Muslim terrorist websites, too, huh? :)

Baron Max

So, once again, you believe everything that you read?

I suppose you also believe all those radical, Muslim terrorist websites, too, huh? :)

Baron Max

I believe whats written depending (1) on the source and (2) on the evidence presented . :)

I believe whats written depending (1) on the source and (2) on the evidence presented . :)

Well, you should probably be more careful and skeptical. And that goes doubly true for anything listed on the Internet ....or more properly "The Liars' Net". For every article on the Net, there's gazillions with completely opposing views .....with "good" sources, as well as "good" evidence.

Baron Max

baron max
And that goes doubly true for anything listed on the Internet ....

Right, only believe things that support the baron's position.

For example, sites supporting sheep marriage = true.
Anything else = Lies!