Rape is defined as forced, unwanted sex. A pornstar usually does not select her sexual partners, and her contract covers issues about allowing her body to be legally traded et cetera. I am certain that if she were to see some male she did not want to film with (have sex with) for whatever reason, she could complain, but her manager would nearly enforce the situation because she is binded by contract. Is she being raped? Does that contract she signed free the male or manager from any responsibility for her discomfort? What would a court say?

She's fucked! :D

she does not have to do it, no contract can ever force a person to do something. sure she may lose her job, and if her manager was a real dick she might be sued for loss of productivity, but if she still has the right to say no.

the scenario is unrealistic. you cannot do this and hope to remain in business. reputation is everything. the girls will boycott your ass. perhaps even beat the shit out of you

Forcing sex on anyone is rape. Your forget that in trying to legally enforce such a contract, all parties involved are confessing to another crime: prostitution. The exchange of money for sex is illegal. The porn industry exists because of a huge nudge-nudge wink-wink, know what I mean?

If someone in the porn industry doesn't want to have sex with someone, but agrees to because the alternative is losing their job, that is still consenting to have sex.

Tiassa, it's not illegal in every state. I wonder if such a contract would be enforceable. They probably write in some kind of "out".

If someone in the porn industry doesn't want to have sex with someone, but agrees to because the alternative is losing their job, that is still consenting to have sex.

In principle I disagree, but there have been some judicial decisions around the country of late that should remind people that if they enter the flesh industry, they forsake their human rights. So in that sense, you have a point. The flesh industry is one place where slave labor is still acceptable.

In principle I disagree, but there have been some judicial decisions around the country of late that should remind people that if they enter the flesh industry, they forsake their human rights. So in that sense, you have a point. The flesh industry is one place where slave labor is still acceptable.

I don't understand the distinction. I've had many unpleasant jobs that I really didn't want to do. If I refused to do them, I would lose my job. That didn't violate my human rights, because if it were distasteful enough, I had the choice of quitting.

My understanding is that there are a fair number of straight men in gay porn. If it weren't for the money, they would never have sex with another man. They do it solely for the money, the same reason virtually everyone else does their job.

I don't understand the distinction. I've had many unpleasant jobs that I really didn't want to do. If I refused to do them, I would lose my job. That didn't violate my human rights, because if it were distasteful enough, I had the choice of quitting.

Did any of those tasks involve letting someone put his penis inside your body? I mean, I understand your point, but cleaning the staff restroom (one of my least-favorite tasks) is a far cry from sexual intercourse.

My understanding is that there are a fair number of straight men in gay porn. If it weren't for the money, they would never have sex with another man. They do it solely for the money, the same reason virtually everyone else does their job.

So ... are they tops or bottoms?

Seriously, dude, you're forgetting that any porn producer who conducted himself in such a manner would end up filming Crack Whores 7: The Dumpster Behind Joe's Tavern.

The last time I ever heard any details of a porn contract, the woman involved had a say in who she f@cked. If she didn't want to do Ron Jeremy, for instance, she didn't sign the contract. In such cases, you can still hit them for breach of contract if they sign and back out later, but, once again, all parties involved would be confessing to prostitution.

Did any of those tasks involve letting someone put his penis inside your body? I mean, I understand your point, but cleaning the staff restroom (one of my least-favorite tasks) is a far cry from sexual intercourse.

So is the compensation. Though I don't know details, I'm sure the pay for this form of loophole legal prostitution is much better than working on a cleaning crew.


So ... are they tops or bottoms?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay-for-pay

I think many people will do just about anything for enough money. Are all female porn stars bisexual? Just about every porn movie I've ever seen has had a girl/girl scene. What of the women who really don't like that, but once again, do it for the money?

Seriously, dude, you're forgetting that any porn producer who conducted himself in such a manner would end up filming Crack Whores 7: The Dumpster Behind Joe's Tavern.

The last time I ever heard any details of a porn contract, the woman involved had a say in who she f@cked. If she didn't want to do Ron Jeremy, for instance, she didn't sign the contract. In such cases, you can still hit them for breach of contract if they sign and back out later, but, once again, all parties involved would be confessing to prostitution.

Is there a point at which the threat of being blacklisted in an industry makes your participation in it non consensual?

I think many people will do just about anything for enough money. Are all female porn stars bisexual? Just about every porn movie I've ever seen has had a girl/girl scene. What of the women who really don't like that, but once again, do it for the money?

I think we need to step back and look at the general standard. I've done things I don't particularly enjoy. I've never been a fan of having sex with a woman while she's menstruating, which is largely an aesthetic thing with me, but I'll still do it. My former partner once wanted to blindfold me, which I thought was an interesting step up in her generally bland sexual outlook. Turns out she just wanted to get laid in the middle of her period. Did she rape me? Hell no. She already knows I'll do it. At that point, the question is akin to whether she prefers missionary over doggie over hanging from the chandelier or standing in the shower.

I'm wondering if you have some specific example in mind, or if this is just a general question. Because when you tread the line between legitimacy and prostitution, between legitimacy and rape, you tend to account for these things. They didn't "miss" the detail about HIV and condoms, for instance. They were aware of the risk, and specifically chose to continue running bareback with insufficient testing. I think it's a fair guess that in any context where pornography brings us a willing "star", the lines are fairly well established.

Imagine that she shows up on the set, having agreed to screw Ron, TT, and Harry. But Harry is bruised and unable to go after the pounding he gave in Wednesday's shoot for another director. So instead of calling one of the industry people you know are available, you go out and grab the first willing moron on the street. No, you cannot oblige her under the contract to screw some unknown, untested, unproven jackass just drooling at the chance to bang a porn star.

Any answer I'm coming up with for the general question says "Yes". I am failing to see any conditions whereby the answer is "no". Can anyone put those circumstances in front of me so that I can see them?

If someone in the porn industry doesn't want to have sex with someone, but agrees to because the alternative is losing their job, that is still consenting to have sex.

What's the difference in that, and blackmail?

Baron Max

What's the difference in that, and blackmail?

Baron Max

Did your employers use blackmail to make you do your job? Would it have been blackmail if you were fired for not doing your job?

She's fucked! :D
Haa!

Did your employers use blackmail to make you do your job? Would it have been blackmail if you were fired for not doing your job?

Repo, I'm going to ask you to consider how rare it is that Max and I agree on anything. And while I cannot speak for Max, I will go so far as to extend my opinion to ask you the following:

• Are you saying that dealing with an annoying customer is the same as having a penis shoved inside your body?

Hmm. But is forcing sex on a prostitute rape or robbery?

But is forcing sex on a prostitute rape or robbery?

Depends on the judge. Unfortunately.

Apparently, the impasse is that I consider being a porn star just another form of employment. I imagine it can be pretty degrading, but so is working at a fast food place for minimum wage. We are all whores in one way or another. If you don't want to do it, then don't.

Apparently, the impasse is that I consider being a porn star just another form of employment.

It could also be that you're looking at sexual intercourse being the equivalent of filing paperwork. Both can be inconvenient, after all.

It could also be that you're looking at sexual intercourse being the equivalent of filing paperwork. Both can be inconvenient, after all.

If someone agrees to do it in exchange for money, they have much in common. Is working in the porn industry not a legitimate way to make a living in your opinion?

If someone agrees to do it in exchange for money, they have much in common. Is working in the porn industry not a legitimate way to make a living in your opinion?

That is beside the point. If I steal a pack of gum, is it the same thing as stealing a car?

Repo, when was the last time you had someone else's penis inside your body?

Repo, when was the last time you had someone else's penis inside your body?

Well they chose to do that job!

That is beside the point. If I steal a pack of gum, is it the same thing as stealing a car?

They are both forms of theft. Laws generally recognize that the value of what has been stolen will change the punishment for the crime. Filing papers and acting in adult films are both legal at this time. Do you consider employment theft?


Repo, when was the last time you had someone else's penis inside your body?

That would be never, your point? I've never acted in adult films, I've never been a stripper, I've never posed nude for money, I've never been a soldier and killed for my country. Am I allowed to have opinions on those subjects? A list of professions I haven't done could be quite long.

But is forcing sex on a prostitute rape or robbery? Both.

Both.

Wouldn't it depend on whether she was raped by a potential john or not? I'd say a non paying customer might change the classification from sex for money to rape. But if a prostitute is simply a victim of convenience by a serial rapist, then it would be standard rape, same as any other victim.

I've never acted in adult films, I've never been a stripper, I've never posed nude for money, I've never been a soldier and killed for my country.


i feel your pain, buddy

/saddened

Rape is defined as forced, unwanted sex.

Rape is sex without consent. Force is not required.

A pornstar usually does not select her sexual partners, and her contract covers issues about allowing her body to be legally traded et cetera.

Such a contract would be illegal if it amounted to slavery - allowing one's body to be traded by somebody else.

I am certain that if she were to see some male she did not want to film with (have sex with) for whatever reason, she could complain, but her manager would nearly enforce the situation because she is binded by contract.

No court would order the enforcement of such a contract, so no employer could enforce it either.

Is she being raped? Does that contract she signed free the male or manager from any responsibility for her discomfort? What would a court say?

A court would say she needs to consent to all acts of sex. If she does not consent, it is rape. Moreover, the civil employment contract would be unenforceable if it obliged her to have sex without consent.

If someone in the porn industry doesn't want to have sex with someone, but agrees to because the alternative is losing their job, that is still consenting to have sex.

Correct.

Hmm. But is forcing sex on a prostitute rape or robbery?

Rape. Rape is sex without consent. Simple.

I don't know why so many people have trouble grasping such a simple concept.

Wouldn't it depend on whether she was raped by a potential john or not?

No. Sex without consent is rape.

I'd say a non paying customer might change the classification from sex for money to rape.

No. What is important is whether she consented to sex at the time of the sex itself. Failure to pay does not turn the sex into rape automatically. Failure to pay is (just) breach of contract.

But if a prostitute is simply a victim of convenience by a serial rapist, then it would be standard rape, same as any other victim.

Any sex without consent is rape.

What is sex by coercion? If the person thinking that they NEED the job, their life depends on it, and the employer takes advantage of that fear and uses it against the person to get sex - what's that? Isn't it rape?

Forcing sex on anyone is rape. It isn't only rape when the person being forced to have sex is a prim and proper school marm. It is rape even when the person being forced to have sex is a slut or a whore. The operative word is forced.

No. Sex without consent is rape.

I was responding to defining the rape of a prostitute as both rape and robbery. I didn't dispute that it was rape, just that it could only be defined as robbery if it were by a customer (theft of her services). Failure to pay may not reclassify it as rape, but the rape of a prostitute by someone who was not a customer certainly isn't robbery.

Did any of those tasks involve letting someone put his penis inside your body? I mean, I understand your point, but cleaning the staff restroom (one of my least-favorite tasks) is a far cry from sexual intercourse.
Is that really worse than working in a coal mine, inhaling dust that poison your lungs and living with the constant risk of a cave in?

Rape is defined as forced, unwanted sex. A pornstar usually does not select her sexual partners, and her contract covers issues about allowing her body to be legally traded et cetera. I am certain that if she were to see some male she did not want to film with (have sex with) for whatever reason, she could complain, but her manager would nearly enforce the situation because she is binded by contract. Is she being raped? Does that contract she signed free the male or manager from any responsibility for her discomfort? What would a court say?

It's her damn job, get used to it. Jeez, even pornstars have rights today...despite the fact that they make millions.

They probably get really well-paid and they probably love shagging. They're probably all too lazy and stupid to operate a checkout so they probably all like lying on their backs watching the dollars roll in. They can choose their level of involvement. If they don't like being peed on they can probably just do those made-for-TV ones that never live up to their promises, and that just seem to be exercises in viewer frustration.

They probably all love it and get paid millions and no-one is forcing them.

http://aitech.ac.jp/~huggett2/australia/aust1/WebAlbum/picturefiles/23.jpg

Is that really worse than working in a coal mine, inhaling dust that poison your lungs and living with the constant risk of a cave in?
When I make this kind of point I tend to be labeled a lefty. In any case, good point.

That would be never, your point?

That you have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. It's no wonder you're looking at sexual intercourse as the violative equivalent of having to listen to a disgruntled customer.

• • •


I don't know why so many people have trouble grasping such a simple concept.

I can't figure out to what extent they're trying to justify their own attitudes. But it seems to me that somewhere in this "paperwork is rape" argument is a craven desire to license any form of rape.

• • •


What is sex by coercion? If the person thinking that they NEED the job, their life depends on it, and the employer takes advantage of that fear and uses it against the person to get sex - what's that? Isn't it rape?

Consent given under duress is not proper consent.

• • •


Is that really worse than working in a coal mine, inhaling dust that poison your lungs and living with the constant risk of a cave in?

I don't think it's a proper comparison. In other words, while I think coal mines involve atrocious, dehumanizing conditions, I don't see the connection between entering a dangerous area and having a penis inserted into your body.

When did you last have another person's penis inside your body, Madanthonywayne?

B... bu..

It's not rape though, is it Tiassa? Candi is perfectly consenting, and free to seek alternative employ.

It's not rape though, is it Tiassa? Candi is perfectly consenting, and free to seek alternative employ.

Consent given under duress is not valid consent.

Yes. It is rape.

Candi is perfectly consenting, and free to seek alternative employ.

I've noticed that even though I've made certain points about the industry and asked for something more specific, people are unwilling to clarify. Thus, we're left at a general consideration.

I want you to consider the exchange:

Labor Investigator: We have a complaint that you would not pay a woman for work done on your film unless she had sex with a man she did not want to have sex with.

Porn Producer: Well, she violated her contract.

Labor Investigator: How so?

Porn Producer: By not having sex with the man.

Labor Investigator: Are you saying she was contractually obliged to have sex with this man?

Porn Producer: Yes.

Labor Investigator: And her payment was contingent upon fulfilling this act under the contract?

Porn Producer: Yes.

Labor Investigator: Are you saying that you are organizing and patronizing prostitution?

Porn Producer: Er ... um ... er ... the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution says I do not have to answer that question.

B.. bu..

The specifics of the industry are, with regard to the present context:

1. The employee is free to seek alternative employ.
2. The employee is free to make an allegation of rape, or attempted rape, or report any other crime, at the earliest opportunity afforded her.
3. The employee is free to have sex with any big, ugly brute she pleases. And...
4. To not do.

I would ask you to consider this exchange:

Porn Producer: Hi Candi, welcome to Sleezy B Productions. Take your coat off, please - and then have sex with this man. {points}
Candi: I, uh... say what?
Porn Producer: Take your coat off, please - and then have sex with this man. {points}
Candi: I, uh... what, you mean right now!?
Porn Producer: Yes, please - and hurry. Time is money. Come along, we haven't got all day.
Candi: Oh wait, wait a second... you mean I have to have sex?
Porn Producer: {Stares disbelievingly} Well, er, yes, er... Candi, why do you think you're here?
Candi: Er, um... well I came about the cleaner's job?
Porn Producer: Ah...

In other words, the dirty little slags know exactly what they're getting into and no-one's forcing them to have sex for money.

I don't see the problem? :confused:

[ok, so maybe the younger one's might need a bit of guidance. They do have legal recourse though if anyone does force them to do anything they don't want to. It's weird though - I don't think I've ever heard of a single case. Probably it's just that I haven't looked.

Looks.]

Nada.

http://www.nwcn.com/statenews/washington/stories/NW_091807WAB_wsu_adult_star_rape_LJ.e6e028a1.html

i met a group of women that raped a man for days and kept him horny they were taken to court and he was laughed at
but he said no and they did it anyway when i asked them why they said they wanted men to know what its like to be raped

no means no when you force the issue on a woman and turn them on anyway whether they like it or not is rape
sum men know the spots to turn a woman on even though they dont know themselves
my so called man did this to me after i said no and he still kept touching my spots whether i liked it or not
i dont see him no more as a man i said no he kept it up without force he did it differently to turn me on like the woman did to the man is still rape

No man worthy of the name would disagree, Donnal.

thankyou redarmy11

These women did not going looking for a job on Monster, or Workopolis.

They knew when they took the job "pornstar" that their job was to fuck strange men. They chose to have sex for money.
Who forced them to take that job? Don't like it....find a new job, just like everybody else who gets treated like shit from their employee.

I really can't beleive you are even having this debate.

mmm
i see potential

/pimp/mode

1. The employee is free to seek alternative employ.
2. The employee is free to make an allegation of rape, or attempted rape, or report any other crime, at the earliest opportunity afforded her.
3. The employee is free to have sex with any big, ugly brute she pleases. And...
4. To not do.

This doesn't help.

Have you ever known anyone in the porn industry?

Let's review, first, the topic question:


A pornstar usually does not select her sexual partners, and her contract covers issues about allowing her body to be legally traded et cetera. I am certain that if she were to see some male she did not want to film with (have sex with) for whatever reason, she could complain, but her manager would nearly enforce the situation because she is binded by contract. Is she being raped?

Now, in the first place, the porn stars I've met wouldn't work under such circumstances. That should not imply that such circumstances do not exist; the porn world is a diverse place.

Secondly, if a manager/director/anyone else wants to enforce the situation, you can simply withhold pay and assert breach of contract (leading to the uncomfortable prostitution interview).

Furthermore, a manager even rumored to treat his/her clients that way, or a director or producer even rumored to operate that way, would find themselves ostracized by their fellows. The people on the business end of the "legal" flesh industry are painfully aware of the laws. The last thing any of them want to do is go down for rape, child abuse, or any number of heinous sex crimes.

Thus, I'm led to conclude that the proposed scenario suggests a predatory "manager", of which there are many, and they do get busted for their improprieties from time to time.

Rule #1 in the porn business is to treat your talent well. When the only people you can get to work for you are crack whores, you've crossed the line into coercion and exploitation, and it is only a matter of time before you cross the line into open sexual assault. It's almost axiomatic.

What strikes me most peculiarly about this topic is how little of the reality of the flesh trade people are taking into consideration, as well as how desperately people are seeking justification to compel a woman to have sex against her will.

We should also notice that nobody seems to give a damn why said porn star (note the word "star" in the title, and all through the topic) suddenly doesn't want to have sex with whomever.

What if she isn't a star? Does that make it less OK to rape her?
If you are a child with a rectal disorder that is regularly treated, does that mean that its open season on your ass?

It doesn't matter what we think this hypothetical porn star is doing and with or without her consent. If she doesn't give us consent then we don't get to have sex with her.

Rape is defined as forced, unwanted sex. A pornstar usually does not select her sexual partners, and her contract covers issues about allowing her body to be legally traded et cetera. I am certain that if she were to see some male she did not want to film with (have sex with) for whatever reason, she could complain, but her manager would nearly enforce the situation because she is binded by contract. Is she being raped? Does that contract she signed free the male or manager from any responsibility for her discomfort? What would a court say?


The entire premise of the thread is false. First off, one cannot consent to allowing one's body to be legally traded since this is slavery and slavery is forbidden. Such a contract would be unenforcable and indeed illegal.

No one can be bound by an illegal contact. As soon as the manager forces the woman to have sex either thrugh violence or threats that constitutes rape.

Admittedly the woman in question is a slut, loose, a whore, a lowlife, call her whatever you want but that doesn't mean she gives up her rights as a human being. Laws must protect the most despicable among us as well as the rest. We don't have laws that say they cover this person but not that person.

Slut? Ridiculous. Sluts give it away.

If they want to give it away, fine. That doesn't mean you can take it if they don't want to give it away that day. No means no no matter who is saying it.

Yup.

I have absolutely no sympathy here!

This thread is an example of the lowest form of what passes for 'debate' around here; basically an excuse to get some titillation from talking about women in the most derogatory way possible. The language used to refer to women, particularly sex workers, is highly offensive and downright sexist but I doubt that anything will be done about it. It is interesting to note how often female workers are referred to as sluts, lowlifes and whores. What does that make the lowlifes who use them and keep the 'industry' going? And what does it say about you lowlifes who have a good old giggle at their expense.

Pathetic.


Go away little boys and have a good think about your attitudes to women. And shorty I really wish you could have said something useful here!

I can't figure out to what extent they're trying to justify their own attitudes. But it seems to me that somewhere in this "paperwork is rape" argument is a craven desire to license any form of rape.

Now you're going off the deep end.


I don't think it's a proper comparison. In other words, while I think coal mines involve atrocious, dehumanizing conditions, I don't see the connection between entering a dangerous area and having a penis inserted into your body.

When did you last have another person's penis inside your body, Madanthonywayne?

When was the last time you worked in a coal mine? The quite obvious connection is doing things you'd rather not do for money. I've never been tackled by a steroid enhanced 300 Lb. man doing his best to hurt me. This is the lot of professional football players. It damages their bodies and their minds, and shortens their lives. But for the most part they are well compensated, and they choose the profession.

But I've never done it, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Why are you fixating on someone being penetrated? As I mentioned before, the hypothetical scenario could also be a woman being contractually obligated to have sex with another woman, not a penis in sight. For a woman who isn't attracted to other women, this could be just as bad (possibly worse) as being contractually obligated to have sex with a man they'd really rather not. If they do not want to do it, they have my blessing to walk out the door and get a job as a waitress (or whatever else they might have the skills for). Immediately seek other employment is my standing advice to anyone who finds their job too disgusting to do.

Now you're going off the deep end.

When was the last time you worked in a coal mine? The quite obvious connection is doing things you'd rather not do for money. I've never been tackled by a steroid enhanced 300 Lb. man doing his best to hurt me. This is the lot of professional football players. It damages their bodies and their minds, and shortens their lives. But for the most part they are well compensated, and they choose the profession.

But I've never done it, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Why are you fixating on someone being penetrated? As I mentioned before, the hypothetical scenario could also be a woman being contractually obligated to have sex with another woman, not a penis in sight. For a woman who isn't attracted to other women, this could be just as bad (possibly worse) as being contractually obligated to have sex with a man they'd really rather not. If they do not want to do it, they have my blessing to walk out the door and get a job as a waitress (or whatever else they might have the skills for). Immediately seek other employment is my standing advice to anyone who finds their job too disgusting to do.


To compare an overhyped overpaid football player to a sex worker is a fallacious one. Not in the same league let alone ball park.

I'm sure all the sex workers in the world will really appreciate 'your blessing' and permission to seek 'other employment'!

It is interesting to note how often female workers are referred to as sluts, lowlifes and whores. What does that make the lowlifes who use them and keep the 'industry' going? And what does it say about you lowlifes who have a good old giggle at their expense.

Pathetic.


And shorty I really wish you could have said something useful here!

Useful like what? I think if they don't like the job, they should find a new one!
Who forced them to take their clothes off and fuck infront of a camera? They chose that job, mainly for the big bucks and I should feel sorry for them?


I was going to say the exact thing though. As these men call these women all these names, they sure enjoying watching their work!! They are the ones putting all this money in their pockets! But I don't have any nice names to call them myself, so if that is what you are looking to get from me you won't! You know what I think of PORN! so there is no support from me here.

Shorty how do you know the women working in porn are doing it for the money? Maybe some are but do you know how much they actually earn? I mean does it compare to non porn 'stars'? Are there many or few who earn 'top dollar'. Are women working in the sex industry doing it for the money or to feed addictions or because they are forced into it by unscrupulous men. I've read that victims of child sexual abuse often end up in the porn industry.....

Surely any argument applied to women here should be applicable to men. How about a male porn star who doesn't want to fuck a particular woman. Or a gay male porn star who doesn't want to be fucked by a particular man. In regards to the OP, sex should be completely irrelevant.

Same argument applies to sex workers regardless of gender.

There was a case recently in the US, where this happened, a stripper was raped. The judge changed the charge to robbery....

But it is pretty hard for a man with a flaccid penis to screw someone, huh?

To compare an overhyped overpaid football player to a sex worker is a fallacious one. Not in the same league let alone ball park.

I'm sure all the sex workers in the world will really appreciate 'your blessing' and permission to seek 'other employment'!

We aren't (so far as I know anyway) talking about child prostitutes in Thailand. We are talking about workers in the adult film industry in the U.S.

Do you consider offering money to someone to have sex with someone else to be a form of coercion?

[QUOTE=Repo Man;1625489]We aren't (so far as I know anyway) talking about child prostitutes in Thailand. We are talking about workers in the adult film industry in the U.S.

Do you consider offering money to someone to have sex with someone else to be a form of coercion?

Why yes, yes I do!

There was a case recently in the US, where this happened, a stripper was raped. The judge changed the charge to robbery....

Could you please link to this decision?

There was a case recently in the US, where this happened, a stripper was raped. The judge changed the charge to robbery....


Male judge?

Could you please link to this decision?

It was a prostitute not a stripper:

http://strippernews.blogspot.com/2007/10/judge-criticized-in-prostitute-rape.html

"In a rare rebuke, a bar association has criticized a judge for refusing to uphold sexual assault charges against a man who allegedly let friends rape a prostitute he had hired. The judge said she considered the case "theft of services."

Municipal Judge Teresa Carr Deni heightened the furor when she defended her decision to a newspaper. "She consented and she didn't get paid," Deni told the Philadelphia Daily News. "I thought it was a robbery.""

Male judge?

Actually, female, called Theresa...

If she gave her consent then I guess it wasn't rape.
Didn't the prostitute get charged for prostitution? Or is it legal in that particular state.

But according to the article she did not consent and in fact was held at gunpoint. Nice.

If she gave her consent then I guess it wasn't rape.


At gunpoint, I give my consent to lots of things...

Yes it is illegal in PA, although she was an escort so it is hard to prove what happens or if money changes hands...

No I read the post before I read the link. Anything by gunpoint is certainly NOT consent!

Shorty how do you know the women working in porn are doing it for the money? Maybe some are but do you know how much they actually earn? I mean does it compare to non porn 'stars'? Are there many or few who earn 'top dollar'. Are women working in the sex industry doing it for the money or to feed addictions or because they are forced into it by unscrupulous men. I've read that victims of child sexual abuse often end up in the porn industry.....

I don't really care if they are doing it for the money or not. I would bet more are doing it for the $$$$ then not. I don't care how much they earn. There are women out there who make minimum wage and work their asses off doing cleaning jobs etc. I bet alot of these "porn stars" would not be willing to do those jobs. I doubt with the vast supply of porn available via the internet that most of those women are victums of sexual abuse.

nobody should be forced to do somthing they dont feal comfortable with and that includes pornstars both male and female, rape is rape and nothing less, for what i know they are allowed to walk away whenever they dont feal comfortable with the partner

It was a prostitute not a stripper:

http://strippernews.blogspot.com/2007/10/judge-criticized-in-prostitute-rape.html

"In a rare rebuke, a bar association has criticized a judge for refusing to uphold sexual assault charges against a man who allegedly let friends rape a prostitute he had hired. The judge said she considered the case "theft of services."

Municipal Judge Teresa Carr Deni heightened the furor when she defended her decision to a newspaper. "She consented and she didn't get paid," Deni told the Philadelphia Daily News. "I thought it was a robbery.""

This decision seems completely wrong to me. Once the gun came out, this became a rape case, no different than if a random woman were abducted from the street and held at gunpoint. Prostitution needs to be legal in order that such women have the same right to be protected from rape as women working in any other profession.

.... Prostitution needs to be legal in order that such women have the same right to be protected from rape as women working in any other profession.

Is forcing a porn star to have sex rape? yes. Forcing anyone to have sex is rape. So how would making prostitution legal give a woman more legal rights whne it comes to rape?

the difference she has a choice - she doesnt have to make porn movies im sure she can be a cleaner or something - although it may seem like a little choice it is this choice that no longer makes it rape

the difference she has a choice - she doesnt have to make porn movies im sure she can be a cleaner or something - although it may seem like a little choice it is this choice that no longer makes it rape

WHAT!? Forced sex is forced sex no matter what job you have. As soon as you agree (without being threatened, because if you have a gun on me or my family, I'm gonna agree) its no longer rape.
So if she is threatened with the loss of her job, then its sexual harassment. I think that would be an interesting court battle.

the difference she has a choice - she doesnt have to make porn movies im sure she can be a cleaner or something - although it may seem like a little choice it is this choice that no longer makes it rape

No, someones profession doesn't make forcing sex on them okay regardless of what they do. :mad:

Is forcing a porn star to have sex rape? yes. Forcing anyone to have sex is rape. So how would making prostitution legal give a woman more legal rights whne it comes to rape?

These men took advantage of the fact that her profession is illegal, much in the same way that thieves will steal from a drug dealer. In both cases, they know that the victim has limited legal protection because they are engaged in an illegal profession. She had to confess to a crime in order to accuse them of one. Chances are these men have done this before, and gotten away with it.

It seems that some people posting in the thread are of the opinion that it is okay to force a certain class of women to have sex against their will. Where in the rape laws does it say that secretaries, teachers, sales clerks, etc. cannot be forced to have sex against their will but strippers, prostitutes or porn actresses can be? It doesn't matter if the woman screws ten men a day for fifty days, the one time she says no means exactly that, no. No one has the right to force another person to have sex against that person's will.

There was a case recently in the US, where this happened, a stripper was raped. The judge changed the charge to robbery

As I noted earlier (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1624957&postcount=18), it depends on the judge. Er, unfortunately.

I don't think it's a proper comparison. In other words, while I think coal mines involve atrocious, dehumanizing conditions, I don't see the connection between entering a dangerous area and having a penis inserted into your body.

When did you last have another person's penis inside your body, Madanthonywayne?
Tiassa, you keep asking this question of heterosexual males. Yes, we would all find it disgusting to have a penis enter our bodies. That's simply part of being heterosexual.

But for a female or homosexual male, there is nothing intrinsically disgusting about penis's entering their bodies. Hell, they like it.

But for a female or homosexual male, there is nothing intrinsically disgusting about penis's entering their bodies. Hell, they like it.

Thank you for making my point. While you are correct that there is nothing intrinsically disgusting about penises entering bodies, such a simplistic dismissal of the fundamental power of self-governance--e.g., the right to say, "No"--not only explains much about the functionally inappropriate comparison to coal mining, but viewed alongside that comparison brings about the compelling suggestion that you really haven't much idea what you're talking about. The dimensional distortion of such a perspective, while atrocious in and of itself, is a tragic realization of one among many potential outcomes spawned by an absence of information.

I have seen some interesting responses, I'm glad this topic sparked a lot of interest, sex usually does.

Many of you started going down the legal path, some of you covered the rape question. This topic post was mostly aimed after far left or far right situations.

Firstly I want to mention that any woman who is semi-attractive can do porn, however, different porn films treat you differently, and more importantly pay you differently. If you are 18 years old and are just entering the industry, don't expect to be making Pamela's gross income.

I worked for a Guniiy Industries for a year as a camera/boom operator for porn films. There was an 18 year old up-and-coming actress (yes we refer to them as actresses because they are pretending) who came in for an interview, the interview process is simple, she signs all her rights away on a one page document which basically informs her that she is aware she is here for a sexually revealing photo/video shoot, these are STANDARD forms from the Court House in my town. She is asked to not associate with the cameraman and pretend he is not there and to do some form of sexual act. At this point, whatever the girl does is her own doing, she can open the door and leave if she likes, and it has happened before. Usually however, the girl undresses and masterbates. A few weeks later the film is developed and a survey is taken if people want to see the actress in future films. If she gets a positive survey review, she is called to make more movies. This is where every pornstar starts.

If you are selected, your first couple of shoots will be for less than $2,500 per movie. The average movie grosses about $50,000 and costs less than $15,000 to make, so one can see the profits. Now, if you feel you are worth more than $2,500 you have to find a manager to find larger spreading films for you to act in. Please understand this point, the actress WANTS a manager to SET UP STRANGERS for her to have sex with so she can yield larger amounts of money.

Now this girl in particular, lets call her Laura, she found a big-time manager who promised her over $10,000 per film. She reluctantly agreed, and filmed 2-3 movies for this man, I can't remember how many, I spoke to her over 2 years ago about this. She received a paycheck after 3 months for $4000 for all the films together. After complaining to her manager, he stated that the movie grossed less and he had to pay her less, and to quote his words, "Fuck better, get more money sweetheart."

Now in any other business, that sentence alone is considered sexual harassment, but go ahead and try to take that to court. She quit her job, and the manager in question still had a healthy supply of other up-and-coming actresses to take her place, he will never fall in the market like some posters are claiming.

Some stated that she can sue for any rape allegations, et cetera. I liked the prostitute example where it was asked if raping her is burglary or rape. Because Laura agreed to sex for ten thousand dollars, not four thousand, was she raped? Just like the prostitute for no money, or for 10 dollars less than what she charged.

Also, I want to end a couple of people's strays of information. If you have sex with a prostitute and she sues you for rape you will NOT have a 25 year sentence. It is understood that she coerced you into the position and both of you will be charged with anti-prostitution laws. You can't sue Majorska for your fatal car accident.

But, trying to get back to topic, I am asking more along the lines of ethics. If you agree to have sex for money, but then for whatever reason no longer agree, is rape really the word that defines your situation?

Laura attempted to sue the manager completely unsuccessfully and I suggested suing for rape, she thought it was silly.

She has a breach of contract complaint, at least. And if that is substantiated, she does, in fact, have a rape case.

Out of curiosity, where is this company located?

Is throwing a stunt man down a flight of stairs when he doesn't want you to assault?

Oh, I think it is.

Tiassa:

. While you are correct that there is nothing intrinsically disgusting about penises entering bodies, such a simplistic dismissal of the fundamental power of self-governance--e.g., the right to say, "No"--


Porn stars have the right to say No.

Granty:

Is throwing a stunt man down a flight of stairs when he doesn't want you to assault?


That's a completely retarded comparison.

But let me just see if I understand the argumentation on this thread:

1. A porn star enters a contract, agreeing to have sex with anyone the director wishes, in return for payment.

2. The porn star comes across a client who she does NOT want to have sex with.

3. If she refuses to have sex with this client, she will be breaking the contract, and hence will lose her job.

4. This amounts to 'blackmail'. In order to keep the contract, the porn star must have sex with someone they don't particularly want to, in order to keep their job. As they aren't 'willing', it amounts to rape. Although rape only occurs when consent has not been given (either implicitly or explicitly).

Just for fun:

1. A cleaner enters a contract, agreeing to clean the caravans in the caravan park of the manager, in return for payment.

2. The cleaner comes across a caravan whose floor is smeared with shit and vomit.

3. If she refuses to have clean this caravan, she will be breaking the contract, and hence will lose her job.

4. This amounts to 'blackmail'. In order to keep the contract, the cleaner must have clean something that they don't particularly want to, in order to keep their job. As they aren't 'willing', it amounts to slavery.

Granty:


That's a completely retarded comparison.

So it went beyond you disagree.

The title of the thread is about forcing on sex on the pornstar. Even on the job she gets to say 'N0' and walk out of the room. Maybe the producers can fire her, but they cannot hear her 'no' and hold her down and force her to have sex.

I think stuntmen and women cannot also be forced to participate in a stunt, that they feel is unsafe, for example. You cannot grab them and shove them into the car that's going flying off the bridge.

And the work that these people do does not make it open season on them in downtime.

This thread is the reason you nerds have no real social awareness in emphasizing pornographic perspectives in society. Consequently your lack of knowledge in the pornographic trade has lead you to trail this topic with irrelevant questions in order to hide your mere compulsive desire.
You all are sick!!!

This amounts to 'blackmail'. In order to keep the contract, the porn star must have sex with someone they don't particularly want to, in order to keep their job. As they aren't 'willing', it amounts to rape. Although rape only occurs when consent has not been given (either implicitly or explicitly).

How is that 'blackmail'?

No, someones profession doesn't make forcing sex on them okay regardless of what they do. :mad:

it does if they are a portar!?!! what do they think they'd be doing handing out flowers?

Help us with your slang, dude ... I can't find a definition for "portar" anywhere. At least, not in English.

pornstar sorry

Oh.

Okay.

See Vega's note.

And then read this (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1584786,00.html).

And then remember that the problem with legally enforcing this kind of pornography contract is that at some point, a manager, producer, or director will have to admit to pimping. The tacit presumption is that the actors are not actually performing sexual acts on camera for money, but that nod and wink will disappear quickly if someone actually tried to make the case in court that they had the right to force a woman to have sex.

the point is it is different to rape - a woman being raped - cannot get away from the situation - the man will keep her there until he gets what he wants and then he des whatever. A pornstar has the option to walk away from her job (assuming there isnt some kind of ang involvement or something lol) she may lose her job but she can actually walk away - a woman being raped cannot.

the point is it is different to rape - a woman being raped - cannot get away from the situation - the man will keep her there until he gets what he wants and then he des whatever.

You're employing an inappropriate standard. Sexual consent extracted under duress is not legitimate, and therefore the act that follows still constitutes rape.

This is one of the risks a manager, producer, director—and, yes, porn star—undertakes by entering the business. Remember that The Hedgehog himself was nearly blacklisted because even the kinky actresses had limits, and Ron Jeremy was, after a fashion, one of those limits. (I once had this magazine ... I think it was, like, Shaved Girls, or something, that did a parody movie poster ... "Starring Sharon Stone as 'Yeasty', the pussy so disgusting even Ron Jeremy wouldn't fuck it.")

The flesh industry is, all around, a dangerous one to be in. At no point, however, does awareness of that danger legitimize genuine coercion.

Now this girl in particular, lets call her Laura, she found a big-time manager who promised her over $10,000 per film. She reluctantly agreed, and filmed 2-3 movies for this man, I can't remember how many, I spoke to her over 2 years ago about this. She received a paycheck after 3 months for $4000 for all the films together. After complaining to her manager, he stated that the movie grossed less and he had to pay her less, and to quote his words, "Fuck better, get more money sweetheart."

Now in any other business, that sentence alone is considered sexual harassment, but go ahead and try to take that to court. She quit her job, and the manager in question still had a healthy supply of other up-and-coming actresses to take her place, he will never fall in the market like some posters are claiming.

Some stated that she can sue for any rape allegations, et cetera. I liked the prostitute example where it was asked if raping her is burglary or rape. Because Laura agreed to sex for ten thousand dollars, not four thousand, was she raped? Just like the prostitute for no money, or for 10 dollars less than what she charged.

No, Laura was not raped. No force was involved, she consented to the act.

However, she was defrauded. I suspect the contract was poorly written, otherwise she should have won her case.

A prostitute cheated out of her money is somewhat different because (in US anyway) there was never any possibility of a legally enforceable contract. Still, I would hesitate to call it "rape".

[Edited -- the above is my OPINION. I am not a lawyer.]

BTW, about a year ago some man in Denmark sued a prostitute for "failing to deliver" on his money. He lost the case.

Tiassa:

Sexual consent extracted under duress is not legitimate, and therefore the act that follows still constitutes rape.


There's no duress involved.