Or psychological warfare?

This is slightly related to the propoganda thread, but after a six week period and a more thorough look at some of the evidence floating around I do have a couple of questions.

1. What happened to that plane in Pennsylvania?

What I'm hearing doesn't make sense. I think that the two eyewitness reports (both of which reported a fire on the wing suggesting a missile strike on the engine) have been largely ignored. Also, the 'private jet' that was cirlcing overhead to alert rescue workers - no names have been released. Military aircraft? Did the air force shoot this down?

2. The FBI finds a Koran and Arabic flight manual in a car parked outside Logan airport. Convenient.

3. The suicide note (original not released for public consumption) uses Arabic phrases not at all in keeping with the Koran. I've heard from a number of good Arabic sources that the language and gramatical structure are such that it could not have been written by those the FBI alleges are responsible. My own Arabic is simply not good enough for me to assess this claim.

Now I'm not saying that Bin Laden wasn't responsible, or that the US has set this up. I don't believe that for a minute. And I think if the US did shoot down that plane in Pennsylvania it was the right thing to do. Don't get me wrong, I can clearly see why the story we're hearing now is much better for all concerned, greaving relatives and the US public.

What does concern me though is the possibility that the US is embelishing evidence and covering things up, even if the motives may be to further a cause believed just. The idea that the US government is already not telling all and fabricating evidence to improve its case is concerning to me. Each step taken to hide the truth, is one step further away from freedom and liberty, surely the very things which must be protected above all else.

Perhaps other think I am seeing spectres in the shadows where there are none?

Surprised you didn't mention the two impact areas. TTBOMK they've only shown the smaller impact 'crater' (unless I missed other coverage).

My first reaction was 'Why two?' Without further coverage, even in 'Weekly Aviation & Space Technology', I came to the conclusion that a Sidewinder (heat seeking, IR guidance) took out one engine which fell and made the initial impact crater. The rest of the plane, possibly less part of a wing, impacted some six miles further along the flight path and created the second impact area has not been shown for whatever reason.

The 'given' scenario, that the passengers tried to do something, doesn't account for the two impact areas. A missile strike does.

Just thinking.

Originally posted by Captain Canada
Or psychological warfare?

This is slightly related to the propoganda thread, but after a six week period and a more thorough look at some of the evidence floating around I do have a couple of questions.



2. The FBI finds a Koran and Arabic flight manual in a car parked outside Logan airport. Convenient.

3. The suicide note (original not released for public consumption) uses Arabic phrases not at all in keeping with the Koran. I've heard from a number of good Arabic sources that the language and gramatical structure are such that it could not have been written by those the FBI alleges are responsible. My own Arabic is simply not good enough for me to assess this claim.



Now I agree that sounds so fishy. Why would they leave all the doucments and even it stated in early days that they found pcitures of OBL in the care. That was the most stupid thing i have ever heard. People who commit so spohisticated cirme in history, destroy all our inteligence sources and cause this dirty act of terrorism and then our Inteligence was coming up with stories like, They found Koran with sucide note and they found OBLs pic in the car and they found atta 's lost bag and he was carrying Koran and other documents. Now I wonder ? The man who is going for a sucide mission why was he carrying all that in his luggage instead of his hand carry. And why was he carrying it for the first place. Then comes all kinds of stories from media, first there was only one or two person who received calls from air plane and then came a load of poeple. People saing they were wearing bands and looked like middle eatstern etc. It doesn't mean that they didn't do it because those stories were so foney but it just so stupid to come up with things like that. I felt horrible for all who suffered but please atleast come up with valid story. What I think is every thing Destroyed in plane crash nothing left. There are no Proofs and there are no leads. We are shooting in the dark. We are running in circles and we are still trying to find clues. I hope our tax dollors are not wasting.


Also they even mention in news that they found a passport near by WTC of one of the terrorist and then a day later they deny it. (CNN). It was very pathetic that where every thing was destroyed they found a passport???? Also they gave names of 19 people I wonder what if one or two of them or more were just passangers??? And only few people were involve. There is also lots of talking in arab world as I heard that there were 4000 jews didn't show up that day and 3-4 major jewish companies sell billions of dollors worth airline stocks before it happened. Two of the suppose terrorists were brother and one was alive and one in Saudi Arabia and other was died in plane crash in Florida. Now I am asking memebers of this forum if they have any info please share with me or others.
It is confusing for me and I am sure for others that things are still so fogy. Bunch of news coming and going, people reporting most of the time from hersay and not from solid resources. I hope things will clear up and we will see some solid proof and some more realistic theories rather then bunch of Agencies making up nice and twisted stories.:( :(

Finally someone is starting to sound reasonable. There are hundreds of witnesses that saw fighter jets following the plane.


Your not smelling a 'hint' of black ops, this is their crowning achievement, with wtc93 and oklahoma as warmups. ANYONE can find this out by filtering through the international media, disinformation and hidden omissions.


Follow some of the media links at www.whatreallyhappened.com

Regarding so called black ops - I hope so, it is our best chance of crushing these terrorists. Regarding the plane in PA. As I uderstand it from CNN/FBI etc; 4 of the passengers decided to have a go and disarm the terrorists. One actually told his wife on his phone what they intended, she wished him luck. My belief is that the pilot was killed when they took the plane; their own taking over and getting lost. As a result of the coup by the passengers, there was nobody to actually fly it, the afghan (?) pilot being overpowered. FBI on the ground say it went it head first at approx 90%!!

I remember watching that news filter through on September the 11th and I remember that minutes after the plane hit the pentagon US jets were flying over head, now put yourself in the position the man on the ground had, knowing 4 things as facts
1.2 planes in “hijackings” had hit the WTC
2.The pentagon had been hit also
3.There's a 4th plane heading for Washington and it thought to have been hijacked
4.Theres U.S jets ready and able to shoot it down outside a populated area.
Now taking these 4 facts into consideration I think it’s fairly obvious what was needed and what eventually happened.
They will never admit this while this government is in power so as not to harm anyone’s ability to stand for president next term, also to protect the pilots and decision makers on the ground.
It just shows how affective there 'cover up' tactic's are and what evidence they can 'create' to suite there cause.

NO!

Were that to be true, an almost ninety degree angle of impact, the plane would have been in an almost vertical dive. Were there to have been structural failure due to speed of descent, I seriously doubt that any portion of the aircraft would have impacted six miles from the main point of impact.

Maybe a few hundred yards ... but six miles?

Just can't buy it.

RedDevi,
what i wrote above it is not something that I made up. I heard it all in our own media. What do you say all about that?? I am not saing that they weren't Arabs. All I am saing is there is massive amount of bullshit is going on. Some thing is not right. Some thing is beeing changed and some one lied to American public like always, in any major tragedy.

I don't think the government is lying, about the fourth plane especially because of all the testimates from people who had called from the PA flight.

Plus the flight recorder voices, which I don't think the government fabricated. Of course anything is possible, but not everything is plausable.

Does anyone remember the airport in Kabul being bombed that night or the night after? The gov't said it was because of a civil war. We know know that the N. Alliance wasn't in a hundred miles of Kabul. I personally think that Bush dispatched some B-2s from the US to hit Kabul immediately after the attack began.
Anyone agree?

I don't agree about the bombing of Kabul on the night of the WTC attack. The northern alliance often shell the capital - the front lines are not that far away from Kabul and there are pockets of northern alliance fighters much closer. I continually get news reports of shelling in Kabul - before, and of course after, the US air strikes began. I don't think the US would have responded that quickly - if they did it would look incredibly suspicious (how could they know it was Bin Laden that soon? B52 and B2s take several hours to prep and fly to Afghanistan, and there was no overflight permission granted by anyone. Diego Garcia or Missouri, you're talking about hours.). If you think that's a cover-up, then you're further down the conspiracy path than I. The northern alliance also confirmed on the 12th that they hit Kabul. Don't think US intel could organise all of that that quickly - nor would they. The US took a very cautious approach initially.

As for flight 93 - I do think we'll find at some point that the US did indeed shoot the plane down. Too much evidence to support that conclusion.

Chagur's posts offer some storng suggestions of a missile strike. The phone calls you refer to only speak of the passanger intent. Another mobile call by a passenger reported an explosion and fire on the wing. This report was carried by AP for one day and then dropped without explanation.

It is known that prior to flight 93's crash, the President issued an order to shoot down any potentially hijacked planes. Flight 93 was the only plane within range of Washington, save for a couple of F-16s. Two eyewitness on the ground reports (there were only two - names not released) said the wing was on fire.

Now, all this suggests a cover-up to me. It's easy to see why. Once reports started filtering in that the passengers intended to try and take back the plane, it might not have sat so well that the air force brought it down. But with the wreockage strewn where it was, eyewitness reports of a fire on the wing (none of which are contradicted by either other phone messages or anyone on the ground) and the fact that a struggle would have left the plane flying levle on autopilot (it would not fall into a dive unless thepilots took the plane of auto-pilot and intentionally did so), it just doesn't add up to me. I don't think this can be kept covered up for long - there will be some serious investigative reporting that cracks this open, or an admission by the government.

It does raise questions about some of the other things we're hearing as well. But I've yet to see any evidence suggesting major fabrications elsewhere. We wait and see.

But I think that web side above mention is tabloid news. Some of it maybe true but we might never find out. But I agree with members here that there is something fishy about Flight 93.

I agree with Curly1 on this issue. I do not think the US government would DARE lie on this one - far too sensitive and, if they had, would bring them down so fast!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Only if the truth were disseminated ... And, the press has been silenced in the past for reasons of 'national security'.

When was the last time that an airliner crashed in the United States and there was no coverage of the crash site?

I can only assume that the Feds dont want the site contaminated, either that or we have another Area 51 syndrome?
Then again, who am I to know, I'm just a brit!! :rolleyes:

I think Red Devil is right. On further reflection the US government could never be anything other than forthright and completely honest. How silly of me to think that there might be something odd about the story being put out on flight 93. I mean, just because most of the physical evidence that has leaked out points to a missile strike, why should we doubt the US government, those bastions and guardians of truth? After all, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton and Bush never tried to cover anything up. And there have never been any underhand dealings, or lies told for the 'public' good, or governments interefered with.

We're not talking alien abduction, Area 51 or who shot Kennedy here. Just as conspiracy theorists see conspiracy everywhere, so apologists have blind faith in authority.

Thank you CaptainCanada and Red Devil, finally some sensable people that realize the government actually sucks at lying. And that they aren't doing it now.

The same theorists who insist we (meaning humans!) never landed on the moon? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: We all know it was really phobos!

A link worth looking through on the subject. There are many questions on this. But if you prefer to think that there's no way the government can ever lie about anything then you probably won't be interested in objectively looking at the evidence. Not saying that the air force definitely shot that plane down, but it looks increasingly probable to me.


http://www.flight93crash.com/index.html

This is what they expect you to belive......
1.Plane gets hijacked
2.People on the plane at the exact time it wasnt over a populated area somehow took control (killed or KO'ed the terrorists?) of the plane then put it into a steep dive and killed themselfs.
Why would they kill themselfs?
I am of course asuming that these people are sain individuals who value there lifes?
This could be explained if the pilot see'ing his plane been hijacked decided to crash it, well this would mean he had to be at the controls and radio, he wasent.
So it means the hijackers purposefully crashed the plane 30? miles from washington outside a populated area or they shot it down.
Think about it, disregard all the propoganda and look at the hard facts as you would if this was a trial.
Now im gonna say they are justified in doing that, but i hate the way the propoganda machine turns it into a pro bush thing.
Talk about a spoon feed population, TV journalism is like as trustworthy as comic's, never is this fact more so then in war time situations.
Its like wearing kid gloves all the time the government needs to hide the fact it has to make hard decisions, that creats a problem for us all, how far can you trust a man just into the first year of his presidency and already lying openly to the american people?
What else will/does he lie about?
Obviously he is a keen muppet master of the modern media, holding the control like a kid with a loaded gun and they call it land of the free.

Quote: So it means the hijackers purposefully crashed the plane 30? miles from washington outside a populated area or they shot it down. unquote

Nope! Read my earlier mail about my "theory" that the passengers, in overcoming the terrorists, could not recover the aircraft as the pilot was already dead! As the current pilot was one of the terrorists.

another thread that was created when 911 was fresh in everyones minds