more on discrepancies of the bible:

Salvation is by Faith alone:

Mk. 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

Jn. 3:18.36 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already...He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of god abideth on him"

Acts 16:30-31 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the lord jesus christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Rom. 1:16-17 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of christ: for it is the power of god salvation to every one that believeth.. As it is written, then just shall live by faith"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Salvation is not by faith alone:

Ps.62:12 "For you render to each one according to his works"

Jer.17:10 "I the lord give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Mt.12:37 "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Mt.16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works"



So which is it?
:confused:

Why not research an answer since it's a pretty simple question?

Maybe next weekend I'll answer it for you if no one else has and if you've made any effort to find an answer yourself. You certainly put a lot of effort into reseaching questions. You should use some of that effort to research answers.

Ben

Originally posted by KalvinB
Why not research an answer since it's a pretty simple question?

Maybe next weekend I'll answer it for you if no one else has and if you've made any effort to find an answer yourself. You certainly put a lot of effort into reseaching questions. You should use some of that effort to research answers.

Ben

The post was to show the discrepacies of your adorable bible!. Of which I've just posted the contradictions. When I asked which is it? I was refering to the bible itself. which is the right way to go!! It seems that if you read the bible and find these controversies, you might become quiet confused of how to be saved.

BTW: can you answer any contradictions on the bible? do you want me to list them all again for you? if that would help?. LOL
:D

PS. Only kidding Kal. :D

Anyhow have a nice X-mas!:D :)

*Originally posted by Godless
more on discrepancies of the bible:*

This is more like it, Godless.
You're actually getting to some point, instead of posting mindless rants.
Much better.

*So which is it?*

Let's find out.

You posted some good verses on works.
However, you may have missed the fact that "reward" and "justification" are a result of works.

Salvation is different from either of those.

You may have noticed that salvation was tied to faith or believing in the verses you quoted for salvation by faith.

That settles it for Christians, but I suspect you're going to complain about something being left out.

Well, let's look at what does happen if you want to get saved by works.
Other people may want to know, and other people have wanted to know.

See, here is an example of someone asking such a question...

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
(John 6:28, KJV).

The answer...

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
(John 6:29, KJV).

Well, wouldn't that just cause a layer of frost to form on your butt?

It seems that you CAN get saved by works, and those works turn to be "believing."

It turns out that salvation by faith and salvation by works are one and the same thing, as long as you are doing the work of God, not your own.

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
(Hebrews 4:10, KJV).

We Christians sure have it easy, we work by resting, and believing.

I was trying to show the discrepancies on the way it's worded it in the holy scriptures. If it were truly the work of god, why is there so many freaking mistakes?.

It does confuse people, when they read it.

However you've did help somewhat clarify a point. Which I am grateful for. For me I'm doomed, cause I donot believe in fantacy island. However since I was once a catholic, then a christian, then a babtist, since i've been babticed twice, once as a child, "catholicism" then the first communion thing, then as an adult, babtism accepting jesus at the young age of 18, then completely loosing faith at the age of twenty two. I am not worried if I make it in to heaven or not! for I have learned that the existence of such a place is purely fantasy.

Metaphysically there can't exist another form of existence!. Heaven & hell would qualify as other forms of existence! I've learned to accept reality, to accept this existence, and to make the best of it, in this existence in the here and now! not in after death crap! cause I would not survive death, there's no such thing as another existence after one dies!. This is an axiom!





Go ahead give all the rant that you would like! however when you are in your death bed "hopefully tony many, many years from today" you will think back on your life, and judge yourself as to wether you've led a happy life, or has it been a waste of time, in beliefs with no foundation other than dreams!.

Last night, I heard in church the nativity sermon, and one point that i do remember hearing was how "Joseph learned of jesus in a dream" so be it that you've believed in a man's dream all this time. a dream. get it!! a freaking dream!! re-read it! again and again! so you can see that you base your religion on a dream!!:D

So, you have shown that there are discrepancies in Biblical text. How does that contribute to your argument that there is no God or existence beyond this life? The Bible is a great book with loads of truth packed into it, but granted, it does have flaws -- in fact I don't understand how people can solely and completely base their religion or beliefs on a book written over 2000 years ago. For me, the belief that God exists and that He wants to help us achieve something far greater than this life is an internal truth that He has given to me and I can only hope to share with others who might be interested. I have no ability to "prove" this conviction just as you have no ability to prove that there is no God. You can throw around words such as "fantasy" or "crap" to insult those who you disagree with, or maybe, you could be open minded and consider the possibility that there are people out there that know something that you don't.

SOT,

For me, the belief that God exists and that He wants to help us achieve something far greater than this life is an internal truth that He has given to me … And

I have no ability to "prove" this conviction … So without proof or evidence what is the difference between your ‘internal’ perception and a fantasy? And calling it a truth has no meaning either unless you can show supportive evidence and proof.

You can throw around words such as "fantasy" or "crap" to insult those who you disagree with, .. These are not insults but reasonably accurate observations. As I say unless you can show that what you believe has substance then your claims appear no different to a fantasy, or simple nonsense (or crap if you prefer).

..or maybe, you could be open minded and consider the possibility that there are people out there that know something that you don't. Someone with an open mind is someone who is open to all possibilities. You on the other hand appear to have locked your mind into a very narrow view of only a single possibility.

Also claiming you know something that other’s don’t and admit there is no proof, and imply that no proof is needed is basic arrogance.

Also without proof or evidence your claim is irrational. So you appear to be arrogant and irrational and exist in a world of fantasy. And these are just simple observations.

Otherwise, welcome to sciforums.
Cris

Going back to the original question:

I don't think salvation has as much to do with faith as it does how you live your life. As long as you believe in some form of God you are "eligible" for salvation. Provided of course, that you live your life in a caring, helpful way. If you constantly serve your neighbors, give without expecting anything in return, you are upholding all the basic principles that come with most any religion.

That's my take on it anyway.

Xelios,

Most religions do seem to largely support that idea, except for most fundamentalist Christians, and in particular the Baptists.

The Christian view is specifically that a belief in Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. In this sense Christianity is the most intolerant of all religions.

Cris

"It does confuse people, when they read it."

If you think the Bible is confusing, try Quantum Physics.

It's a fact that not everyone is equally skilled in reason. Just because you or someone else is confused by something, doesn't make it not true.

I find the Bible to be quite easy to follow myself. But that's because I dedicated over a year talking to people who knew more than I did and doing my own studies to figure it out.

Take a philosophy class or six like I did. Then you'll see confusing and quite a bit of enlightenment if you work at it. If not, it's your own fault, not the author's.

"Also without proof or evidence your claim is irrational. So you appear to be arrogant and irrational and exist in a world of fantasy. And these are just simple observations."

Tony's been over that one with you a couple times I believe. It's very easy to criticize others and a rare ability to criticize one's self.

There are a number of people here who are equally convinced that evolution is the only right answer and that God not existing is the only right answer.

But, as we all should know by now, science == open minded. Um...yeah.

Ben

It's very easy to criticize others and a rare ability to criticize one's self.
Hahaha! Tell that to tony.
But, as we all should know by now, science == open minded. Um...yeah.
I see a lot more open mindedness happening with the atheist group than I do with the theists. I haven't seen you on these boards much since I joined, so it would be too soon for me to jump to conclusions, but I can definatly say tony1's mind is closed, locked, bolted and welded shut. And whaddya know? He's a theist.

Ben,

"Also without proof or evidence your claim is irrational. So you appear to be arrogant and irrational and exist in a world of fantasy. And these are just simple observations."

Tony's been over that one with you a couple times I believe. It's very easy to criticize others and a rare ability to criticize one's self.

There are a number of people here who are equally convinced that evolution is the only right answer and that God not existing is the only right answer. There are also those who see evolution as providing the potential for the right answer and who don’t rule out the possibility of gods. But the key differentiation between well-established scientific theories and religion is that such theories have vast quantities of evidence to support them while religions have little to none (and no proofs).

While my statement to SOT appears derogatory I believe it is technically factual. But it is certainly a criticism of his approach. Since he launches personal accusations, e.g. close-mindedness, or throwing insults, then my response is one of defense.

But, as we all should know by now, science == open minded. Um...yeah. Hmmm, I’m not sure I have ever considered ‘science’ as being open-minded. If we are considering the scientific method then that process is very strict and narrow in its application. I think that if we consider that scientists solve problems then good scientists do indeed have very open minds to enable that essential problem-solving attitude.

Cris

However many atheists are! fact many athiest were even priests.
The discrepancies come from those who do know the bible better than I, I found these discrepancies in other web-sites, of sceptics.

You may try and read it from them. http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

This is were I started learning of all the discrepancies of the bible.

Sot, you admit that the bible has discrepancies corret? if this is so then the conclusion is that this god is not perfect! a contradiction in itself right there. When the word of god has discrepancies, then the word of god, becomes the word of man!.

Originally posted by Godless
However many atheists are! fact many athiest were even priests.

Now here’s an opportunity to use your head. If atheist were/are priests then there understanding of God is non existent. Then what is the value of their commentaries and preaching.

This is were I started learning of all the discrepancies of the bible.

Its obvious the bible has discrepancies. Was it King Henry 8 who changed things for his own benefit.
Where are the missing 18 years of Jesus.
Where I am really curious, is what your state of mind was before you started learning of all these descrepancies?

Sot, you admit that the bible has discrepancies corret? if this is so then the conclusion is that this god is not perfect! a contradiction in itself right there. When the word of god has discrepancies, then the word of god, becomes the word of man!. [/B]


How can God have descrepancies?
Simply out of the question.
He is God.
He is perfect.
So the reason for the descrepancies in the bible is due to mans interpretation.

Most probably them dodgy priests you were talking about.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Why do you do good? I don't mean "just because it is the right thing to do". Why do you do the right thing? Why do you care if an innocent person is persecuted? Why do you care if a child is hungry or beaten? Why would you ever put someone else before yourself? Does it really matter? Then why do it?
Could it be that you believe it does somehow matter? That it will effect you somehow or some way in this life or the next...or both?

Then perhaps you DO believe in Jesus...for what and who was He?
What did He teach, what was His message?
What purpose did His life serve to teach?
That we are accountable for our fellow man, that we should act in rememberance of our own accountability. Is believing in Jesus an act of believing in that message?
Do you believe in that truth?
Does it matter?
Are we accountable?

Descrepincies come from a lack of understanding as Tony demonstrated once again.

Ben

Kalvin if you are in fact the creation of God...would it not stand to reason that with in yourself might be the place to look for evidence of such? Questioning your own beliefs and existance is a sure fire way to get at the undeniable truth of God. "Seek and ye SHALL find" "Ask and it SHALL be given."
Why do you and Tony find it so offensive that I ask or give reason to unbelievers to look with in themselves and question their own beliefs against what they inevitably KNOW to be right?
Is it perhaps that you and Tony do not have an agenda of bringing people to the truth and love of God, but rather to simply try to convince people that yopu are always right just for your own ego?
Did Jesus lecture or scold the adultress for her actions? Did He demand an explanation or for her to plead for her life? No, He simply said "Where are your accusers?" "Go and sin no more."
Did He wow the woman at the well with great miracles? No.
Once again He appealed to what was eminently already there, they just needed to see it.

Taken,

[B]Why do you do good? I don't mean "just because it is the right thing to do". Why do you do the right thing? Why do you care if an innocent person is persecuted? Why do you care if a child is hungry or beaten? Why would you ever put someone else before yourself? Does it really matter? Then why do it?
Could it be that you believe it does somehow matter? That it will effect you somehow or some way in this life or the next...or both? Come on, this is basic evolution theory. Our powerful sense of survival, and more importantly that powerful sense to protect family, the group, and ourselves answers all your questions. When we see the helplessness and injustice of others we easily relate that to our own group and can easily make the connection of ‘that could happen to us as well’. Remember our evolutionary survival is not just animalistic but extends to our intellects as well.

Then perhaps you DO believe in Jesus...for what and who was He?
What did He teach, what was His message?
What purpose did His life serve to teach?
That we are accountable for our fellow man, that we should act in rememberance of our own accountability. Is believing in Jesus an act of believing in that message?
Do you believe in that truth?
Does it matter?
Are we accountable? Ha ha, total BS. Why oh why create a supernatural fantasy story to explain something so mundane and natural as the basic senses of survival.

Cris

Ahhh but Cris, Jesus was not a supernatural fantasy...He was a man. A man who dedicated His life to showing us the truth, setting an example of what is right. In His words and in His death He revealed the truest, purest form of compassion and sacrifice and ask that we be willing to do the same for one another.

You still can not scientifically or biologically convince me that laying down your life for another is a survuval instinct, it goes against our very being, and our very reasoning to do so.

"Why do you and Tony find it so offensive that I ask or give reason to unbelievers to look with in themselves and question their own beliefs against what they inevitably KNOW to be right?"

I find lying to people to try to trick them into believeing something to be quite offensive. The fact you do so and call yourself a Christian I find repulsive.

"Is it perhaps that you and Tony do not have an agenda of bringing people to the truth and love of God, but rather to simply try to convince people that yopu are always right just for your own ego?"

Says you. Believe what you want as you always will.

Ben

Taken,

Ahhh but Cris, Jesus was not a supernatural fantasy...He was a man. Emphasis is on was a man. Or more precisely was allegedly a man. Unless you can show me his street address and enable me to meet him in the flesh I would assert that at the moment he either exists in a supernatural form or is a fantasy of a supernatural being.

You still can not scientifically or biologically convince me that laying down your life for another is a survuval instinct, it goes against our very being, and our very reasoning to do so. A question for you then assuming you love your children. How far would you go to risk your life to protect one of your children? The scenario is that you and one of your sons are shipwrecked and are the only survivors. The only hope for survival is a single lifebelt that will only support one of you. Do you take the lifebelt for yourself or do you give it to your son? Neither of you can swim so you know that one of you is going to die within a few minutes.

Who do you choose to let live and why? Consider this from the perspective of having a conviction that an after-life exists and then from the conviction that there is no after-life.

Another scenario: Your well-loved family pet (say a dog) (I hope you love animals, otherwise this scenario may not have so much impact), has fallen into a rough sea and is in danger of imminently being drowned. A man, a complete stranger to you has also fallen into the sea and is also about to drown (assume a non-swimmer). You are perfectly able to save either of them but not both.

Who do you choose to save and why?

Cris

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
[/I]


How can God have descrepancies?
Simply out of the question.
He is God.
He is perfect.
So the reason for the descrepancies in the bible is due to mans interpretation.

Most probably them dodgy priests you were talking about.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Jan got sidetracked reading all the other responces! let me try and see if I can understand what you are getting at!.

Quote Jan: "Its obvious the bible has discrepancies. Was it King Henry 8 who changed things for his own benefit".

That's one version of the bible! however was it not also translated about 1000 times before we had the english version?.

Where are the missing 18 years of Jesus.

Beats me? Ask the Jesus expert here on these boards, Tony.

Where I am really curious, is what your state of mind was before you started learning of all these descrepancies?

I was an atheist allready, if that is what you are trying to get at, however I've just recently purchased the computer, and began searching the net for athiest material, when I found the web site mentioned, I've known of discrepancies of the bible, however I was not aware of what discrepancies people were talking about. In other atheists boards I was visiting.

My state of mind was cool and relaxed in front of my new computer!!.:D

Quote 2: "Now here’s an opportunity to use your head. If atheist were/are priests then there understanding of God is non existent. Then what is the value of their commentaries and preaching.

Neither is your understanding of god!!. haven't you heard? the understanding of god is unknowable to the feable human mind?.

However what you fail to see, is that these priest, became athiest cause they realized the fraud the church really is!. They have come to a conclussion that the only thing they were doing is earning a living off credulous individuals, pretty much as believing Sister Leo! the card reader!. :rolleyes:

Quote 3: "How can God have descrepancies?
Simply out of the question.
He is God.
He is perfect.
So the reason for the descrepancies in the bible is due to mans interpretation."

Was it not devine intervention? How can man not intrepet god's interpretation when he is the dictator of his book? If man didn't write it accordingly to god's wishes, would't have god corrected man? This alone is a mistake! this makes your god in-perfect!, therefore not omniscient, not omnipotent.:p :D

Humans have grown past survival instincts. Sure, they are still a part of our lives, but they play a much less active role in them now that we can conciously think and act on emotion. In the stranger-dog scenario that Cris outlined, if you ran on completely on survival instinct you would not even attempt to save either of them.

However, after humans took that huge evolutionary step into developing an active concious awareness, our natural instincts have faded. Because of this, you are more likely to jump in and try to save one of the two, not because your survival demands it, but because your emotional conciousness demands it.

It's like a frog in hot water. If you throw him into a pot of already boiling water, he will immediately jump out. But if you slowly bring the water to a boil he will not move. Technically, a human should do the same, as we should have the same survival instincts as any other animal. However, we can think and have a unique awareness of ourselves and our surroundings, and this is what affects our judgement in such matters.

I hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by Godless
Sot, you admit that the bible has discrepancies corret? if this is so then the conclusion is that this god is not perfect! a contradiction in itself right there. When the word of god has discrepancies, then the word of god, becomes the word of man!.

The Bible's imperfections don't render it useless; nor do these imperfections due to imperfect man infer an imperfect or nonexistent God.

I wouldn't go so far as to say these discrepencies render the Bible useless. After all, it does outline some very good ideas like loving one another and living good lives instead of lives filled with "evil". However, I would say that the Bible alone is definatly not enough to base an entire religion on.

As I like to say, the foundation must always be bigger, or stronger, than that which rests upon it. Personally, I wouldn't want to build a 100 storey building on a cracked and incomplete foundation.

You offer too much praise. For as many times as the theme "love one another", so too is the "get revenge and go on a bloody massacre" theme presented. That seems to be the big issue. For any given point there is an opposite also given. If I said something only to turn around and say the exact opposite on numerous occassions, how much of what I said would you trust?

That's true. I'm just saying the basic ideals of the Bible are good, whether it is true or not is another question. Then again, I wouldn't want to kill people in bloody massacres :(

What a crappy story.:mad:

Why is Samson a crappy story?

Ben

Here's my version why it is "crapy"

First. Why did god need to place the power of Samson in his hair.
A bit stupid idea.

Second. Samsom\n was a real idiot. That beautiful woman who he had dates with asked for his source of power for a couple of times. Each time samson said not true, and every time soldiers came and wanted to arrest r kill him. Didn't he understand tht each time he said smth about his source of power to his girlfriend soldiers came and did everything to disable tht power.
And if he saw tht and thought it was funny, why did he at last told his girl the true sorce.
That is syupid and samson is stupid too, if he did tht.

Kalvin exactly what LIE have I told?
Since when is poseing a question a lie?
Get a grip.
I can atleast respect that fact that Tony has beliefs and stands by them, but you don't even seem to have that. You just go along with what ever he says or against anything anyone else says just to be doing something. Kinda reminds me of when God said cold or hot He could bare but lukewarm He would spit out of His mouth. :O) Peace.

It's a ruse. It's a smoke-screen. It's an adoption of cliches. Watch carefully--he goes through phases. You'll note that a few people on that side of the aisle have taken to employing certain phrases which have become unbearably cliche. Let's see, there's the "We know, we know," bit, originally directed at Loone. It's sad, though, because he demonstrates that he doesn't. See, it's a matter of timing. He thinks the dismissiveness of it is effective, but doesn't understand that the phrase is designed to dismiss a lack of coherent issues.

We also see another poster recently employing the baseball metaphor; it's really too bad he didn't adopt that one, oh, during baseball season .... :rolleyes:

And now the present, and the accusation of lying. It's a confounding little piece to him because he's seen it work at least twice recently. Unfortunately, he doesn't understand--or else has disregarded--the need to show the lie itself. Until he learns to show the lie, he's just wasting electricity with such accusatory posts.

I wouldn't worry about the accusation of lying. You know it's gotta be getting frustrating for him. He just doesn't understand why his devices aren't working. In that case, it's kind of like a magick ritual: the lie is the object, and to demonstrate or actualize it, one must say the "magick words". In this case, the magick words would consist of a citation containing the lie he refers to.

In the meantime, though, it's like anything else: if you disagree with him, you must be dishonest or promoting Satan. And yes, you can roll your eyes at that. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

*Originally posted by Godless
I was trying to show the discrepancies on the way it's worded it in the holy scriptures. If it were truly the work of god, why is there so many freaking mistakes?*

What mistakes?
Some people like the idea of getting saved by works and some by faith.
The way it's worded, everybody's happy, except you.

*For me I'm doomed....I am not worried if I make it in to heaven or not! for I have learned that the existence of such a place is purely fantasy.*

If you're doomed then it's definitely a fantasy for you.

*Metaphysically there can't exist another form of existence!*

Metaphysically speaking, it is obvious there is a God, and atheism is a contradiction, yet there you are, believing a contradiction.

*Last night, I heard in church the nativity sermon, and one point that i do remember hearing was how "Joseph learned of jesus in a dream" so be it that you've believed in a man's dream all this time. a dream. get it!! a freaking dream!! re-read it! again and again! so you can see that you base your religion on a dream!!:*

In church?
Yes, but the Christian dream is more solid than the atheist's proven fact.
In fact, the Christian's used gum wrapper is more useful than the atheist's proven fact.

*Originally posted by Cris
Someone with an open mind is someone who is open to all possibilities. You on the other hand appear to have locked your mind into a very narrow view of only a single possibility.*

The analogy is like the atheist having to buy all the tickets in a lottery in order to win the lottery.
The Christian has the winning ticket, so the atheist won't win even with all the other tickets.

*Originally posted by Xelios
I don't think salvation has as much to do with faith as it does how you live your life.*

That's Catholicism.

*Provided of course, that you live your life in a caring, helpful way. If you constantly serve your neighbors, give without expecting anything in return, you are upholding all the basic principles that come with most any religion.*

That's why you can't get salvation that way.

*I see a lot more open mindedness happening with the atheist group*

Naturally, you've got nothing, so anything looks better that.

*Originally posted by Cris
such theories have vast quantities of evidence to support them*

No, they are merely described that way.
The evolutionist myth is that there is a lot of evidence, since it is commonly known that evolutionists will never check to see if that's true.

*Originally posted by Taken
Did He wow the woman at the well with great miracles? No.*

Your point fades fast when one asks about walking on water, and making water into wine and calling Lazarus out of the tomb.

*Once again He appealed to what was eminently already there, they just needed to see it.*

Those crazy idiots that were fed from the loaves and fishes.
They should have just looked around and seen all those extra loaves and fishes just floating in the air.

*Originally posted by Godless
Where are the missing 18 years of Jesus.*

Right here...
And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
(Mark 6:2,3, KJV).

He was working as a carpenter in his hometown.

*However what you fail to see, is that these priest, became athiest cause they realized the fraud the church really is!*

Probably just cursed by a voodoun, or something.
That happens, a lot.
That would be the pits if you lost your eternal life, because you got cursed by somebody who eats raw chicken heads.

*Originally posted by Xelios
the Bible alone is definatly not enough to base an entire religion on.*

You'd need God.

*Originally posted by Taken
Since when is poseing a question a lie?*

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(Genesis 3:1, KJV).

A question which is a lie.

Well firstly let me start off by saying, you all have good points on either side of this debate.

ok hmmm....
So basically religion is based strictly on the Bible.
All that you know, all that you believe, all that you preach and practice comes from information and advice written within the pages of the "Good Book".

The bible was written originaly as seperate text's, eventually compiled as a single book.(one copy)
From this single book, written a a few thousand years ago, we now have billions of copies, millions of versions, thousands of languages, and hundreds of shortened , edited, juvinile, and even brail versions.

Now concider the darker nature of man for a moment.
We lie, cheat, manipulate, we are self serving and lets not forget deceiptful, just to name a few.
Is it at all likely, that over ther generations as each new edition was revised and reprinted, that various factions, governments, kings and queens, politicians and people in positions of power, changed or edited the bible in some small way in order to serve themselves or the public interests for what ever reason.
Power and corruption, fear and dominance, control of the masses, finacial gain, are all good motives to start.

How many times has this "EDITING" happened? How much of what is left in the Bible is correct and genuine?
Try a chinese whisper around your office block or school etc today.
quite simply tell someone a secret and tell them to pass it on, give it a few days and see what you come back with.
.................................................. ...........................................
"RazZ rules" ..turns into..... "RazZ is hung like a donkey and apparently he is a love God" ( oh how i wish that were true)
.................................................. ............................................

People by nature can not allways be trusted.
Thus, I can not for the life of me see why somone would put such unquestionable faith in a book that has been so obviously available for tampering over the millenia.
Its not like the Bible and its pages have tamper proof water marks or high tech digital security.
Who alive can varify that this is "God's True Word?"
Why are people believing this book so utterly and unquestionably?
When the equal opposite, .."Science's theory of Evolution" must provide proof and documentation, hard facts and Elemental tables at every turn.

Why do most religeous nutters defend the Bible to the death without ever once daring to listen to possible variations of the so called truth about where we come from.

The bible may well be a genuine collection of information that God inteneded us to live our lives by, and from what ive read, the rules and commandments dont seem so bad , basically be kind be honest , be gentle and forgiving, love yourself and your neigbour, are not bad ways to live out your life.
But of coarse if i choose to be my own man, and fear no Gods wrath, Im up for a spongebath in hellfire with Satan for Eternity.

Not really a "Fair Choice", .......Skimpy Clad Angels ...........or..... Horny Prickly Devils.....hmmm wich to choose .???????????.........
so i've adopted my own way to deal with this.
When im bad, I yell "Hail Mary" repeatedly as i commit my crime against god and humanity, thankfully being able to snub my nose and twinkle my fingers at the devil while poking my tongue out.
__________________________________________________

The laws of most societies are originaly built on what system?
A): The Bible.

Now if scientists were able to 100% disprove the Bible and Gods existance once and for all, what would this mean to our current set of social laws?
Would our laws still hold value?

Thou shalt Not steal, murder, etc etc etc..
All major crime laws are based originaly on the bible.
Laws would suddenly have a major floor... they are based on a lie, on a misconception if you will.

How many hard nosed cold blooded Lawyers would use that one to keep their guilty clients from doing hard time?

What would happen to our social order?
How the hell would we control the masses then?

I say the Bible will never be disproven, it is a fundemental building block in the fabric of our society, it is needed and definately wanted.
Evolutionists can take a back seat, our governments can not risk the downfall of religions such as those based on the bible.
I unfortunately I tend to agree.

Hope I've made some sense.

Cheers
RazZ :)
.................................................. .................................................
Now a quote from the scriptures of RazZ ...

And the lord said Unto RazZy " Come Forth My Son" but he slipped on a bannana peel and came 5th.
(Razz: 66:69)
.................................................. .................................................. .
__________________________________________________ _

Tony once again your reading comprehension or lack of reading at all has left you at a loss. We WERE talking about looking with-in yourself and realizing the undeniability of Gods existance...not fish swimming in the air. But you only follow Jesus to get the fish anyway. A shallow relationship with God or a shallow faith for the sake of reward is worthless. Yet you not only practice and preach it, you recomend it to others. The only relationship with God that is going to sustain during the worst of times is a REAL, sinceare one based on LOVE. Did Job curse Him when all the wealth and health were gone? Or did he still regard Him as God? Was his conviction and worship based on the I scratch your back you scratch mine ideaology?

*Originally posted by razz
So basically religion is based strictly on the Bible.*

Actually, most religion is based on leaving the Bible on a bookshelf and never touching it, let alone looking at it.

*How many times has this "EDITING" happened? How much of what is left in the Bible is correct and genuine?*

99.9999999999%
If you rip a page or spill something on it, the percentage could go down.

*People by nature can not allways be trusted.*

Oh oh, you are going to bring down the wrath of tiassa on yourself for that.
He feels that everyone should be trusted.

*Thus, I can not for the life of me see why somone would put such unquestionable faith in a book that has been so obviously available for tampering over the millenia.
Its not like the Bible and its pages have tamper proof water marks or high tech digital security.
Who alive can varify that this is "God's True Word?"
Why are people believing this book so utterly and unquestionably?
When the equal opposite, .."Science's theory of Evolution" must provide proof and documentation, hard facts and Elemental tables at every turn.*

LOL!!
Excuse me as I wipe the tears from my eyes.
ROTFLMAO!!

If the theory of evolution "must" provide proof then why doesn't it?
All of the proof so far is proving the Bible, not evolution.

*Why do most religeous nutters defend the Bible to the death without ever once daring to listen to possible variations of the so called truth about where we come from.*

Because, "so-called truths" are lies.
We want the real truth.

*But of coarse if i choose to be my own man, and fear no Gods wrath, Im up for a spongebath in hellfire with Satan for Eternity.*

Nah, if you'd read the Bible, you'd see that you'll end up as a puff of smoke.

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
(Psalms 37:20, KJV).

*The laws of most societies are originaly built on what system?
A): The Bible.*

Hardly.
The Napoleonic Code is based on the code of Hammurabi, AFAIK.
In France the principle is guilty until proven innocent.
Asian countries are based on confucianism or the BG, therefore their principle is the foreigner is at fault, or if there is no foreigner, the smaller bribe is at fault.

*Now if scientists were able to 100% disprove the Bible and Gods existance once and for all, what would this mean...*

It would mean they faked the results.

*Originally posted by Taken
We WERE talking about looking with-in yourself...*

Let me guess, at the heart?

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
(Jeremiah 17:9, KJV).

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
(Mark 7:21, KJV).

I knew that's where you've been getting doctrine that sucks as bad as it does.

* shallow relationship with God or a shallow faith for the sake of reward is worthless. Yet you not only practice and preach it, you recomend it to others.*

That's because I'm following Jesus, not spitting all over the cross.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR THE JOY that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
(Hebrews 12:2, KJV).

Even Jesus did it for a reward, but you are much holier than God.

*Did Job curse Him when all the wealth and health were gone?*

No, but his wife was ready to stand in the gap, somewhat like you.

Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
(Job 2:9, KJV).

*Or did he still regard Him as God? Was his conviction and worship based on the I scratch your back you scratch mine ideaology?*

And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.
(Job 42:10, KJV).

I thought this may help tony, as it seems from razz and Taken's posts that he is on another of his "Believe in God or perish in everlasting fire" rants. Straight from your beloved book of whatevers:

"...a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out -- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned"-John 5:28, 29

Meaning, even atheists will be saved as long as they have lived their lives in accordance with the 10 Commandments and not in much sin.

"[the Lord] will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free."-Ephesians 6:7,8

I take the words "slave or free" to mean slaves of satan or free of satan. Of course, they could also be very literal in meaning and refer to slaves as we know them, and people who are free to do as they wish. Either way, once again it is emphasised that all people will be judged on their actions in this life, not only on whether they believe or not.

So it looks like I might just see you in heaven, hopefully you won't be so brutal to speak with once there.

*Originally posted by Xelios
I thought this may help tony*

Thanks, Xelios.

*"...a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out -- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned"-John 5:28, 29*

That's not bad, but it seems strangely dependent on the meaning of the word "good."

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Psalms 14:3, KJV).

Oooops, no one has done good, presumably that would mean atheists, too.

*Meaning, even atheists will be saved as long as they have lived their lives in accordance with the 10 Commandments and not in much sin.*

Much sin?
Permit me to guess, you will determine how much is too much, correct?

Setting that aside, atheists will in fact be saved, if they keep the 10 commandments.
Of course, if you've broken even one to date, you're toast.
You don't get to reset the date at which the counting starts.

*"[the Lord] will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free."-Ephesians 6:7,8

I take the words "slave or free" to mean slaves of satan or free of satan. Of course, they could also be very literal in meaning and refer to slaves as we know them, and people who are free to do as they wish. Either way, once again it is emphasised that all people will be judged on their actions in this life, not only on whether they believe or not.*

Again not bad, slave does mean any kind of slave.
But as mentioned earlier, the whole issue is strangely dependent on the concept of "good."

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Romans 3:12, KJV).

*So it looks like I might just see you in heaven, hopefully you won't be so brutal to speak with once there. *

Probably not, if you do make it there, you'd be there by yourself.
Everyone else will be on earth, including God.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(Revelation 21:2,3, KJV).

Tony...did you really see the word HEART in my post? 'Cause I didn't.
I am equal to Jobs wife by what measure...because I am a woman? Because I don't recall speaking about her either.

Jesus was from the begining ...he gained NOTHING by suffering such a cruel earthly fate except buying your salvation.
Now you even have the nerve to rule Him out as another self-serving evangelist and you say you DON'T spit on the cross?
Seems to me the only reward He has recieved WAS to be spit on by those soldiers then to have all His sacrifice turned in to a meaningless, shallow, pyramid scheame by people like you.
What do you offer? Wealth, comfort, self-righteousness, a worldly empire with power over all? Satan offers as much.

A story about a guy who's power comes from his hair. The story makes itself obvious as just another tale of revenge. That he was killing Palestinians reveals the ego-boosting required by the author. It was rubbish.

Most of those old testament stories are subpar. Better morals can be had from a collection of nursery rhymes.

So it looks like I might just see you in heaven, hopefully you won't be so brutal to speak with once there.

That is if a heaven exists. We only have the word of a dilapitated piece of trash filled with fairy tales, as evidence. I wouldn't count highly on seeing Tony1 there even if it exists.

Actually, most religion is based on leaving the Bible on a bookshelf and never touching it, let alone looking at it.

This a lie in any case. Certainly churches use them frequently. I know at least you do. I detect some posturing again from distancing yourself from church-goers. That is at least admirable, but consider that now you cannot quote statistics of Christians. In this case you are more alone than we atheists. This also technically makes you an agnostic.

This issue reminds me of the Monks vs. self taught religion. Once the Europeans of learned to read en masse, they were more inclined to stay at home and read their bibles. There was a general realization that monks produce nothing. This era was aptly named the enlightenment period.

"I am equal to Jobs wife by what measure...because I am a woman"

No...it's because, according to Tony, you act like her. I didn't think it was that hard.

Ben

"A story about a guy who's power comes from his hair."

It didn't come from his hair. It came from God. All God required for him to have his power is to not cut his hair. Pretty simple stuff, like not eating from one single tree of many.

"The story makes itself obvious as just another tale of revenge. That he was killing Palestinians reveals the ego-boosting required by the author. It was rubbish."

Samson kept the Philistines in check his entire life as was the reason God gave him so much strength (notice the sprit of the Lord came upon him any time he did something powerful)

He got cocky and God punished him but not without using Samson's predicament to carry out His plans. Samson was a big name and all the leaders would have been at his final stand to see him killed.

For Samson it was a bit about vengence (as he said it was) but for God it was much more.

You have a very shallow understanding to think it's all about revenge.

Ben

*Originally posted by Taken
Jesus ... gained NOTHING by suffering such a cruel earthly fate except buying your salvation.*

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who FOR THE JOY that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
(Hebrews 12:2, KJV).

*Now you even have the nerve to rule Him out as another self-serving evangelist*

I believe that was you doing that.
See, the big "NOTHING" above.
If that isn't ruling out, nothing is.

*Seems to me the only reward He has recieved WAS to be spit on by those soldiers then to have all His sacrifice turned in to a meaningless, shallow, pyramid scheame by people like you.*

Wasn't it you mentioning how much money your husband was making?
Shouldn't he be flushing it down the toilet?

*What do you offer? Wealth, comfort, self-righteousness, a worldly empire with power over all? Satan offers as much. *

He doesn't offer eternal life, or peace, or the power to enjoy one's wealth, etc.

BTW, what is that last one all about?

Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.
(Ecclesiastes 5:19, KJV).

Can you imagine?
God not only giving someone wealth, but the power to enjoy it, too!!!

That must just be grinding your gears backwards just about now.
Imagine that, you don't get to be the only one with wealth.
From the looks of it so far, you might be the only one not enjoying it.

*Originally posted by Teg
I wouldn't count highly on seeing Tony1 there even if it exists.*

Good move.
Since I'll be on earth.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(Revelation 21:2,3, KJV).

*This a lie in any case. Certainly churches use them frequently.*

I can't remember the last time I saw a Bible in a mosque, or a Hindu temple.

*I know at least you do.*

Do tell.

*I detect some posturing again from distancing yourself from church-goers.*

I'm distancing myself from mosques, and Hindu temples.

*Originally posted by KalvinB
All God required for him to have his power is to not cut his hair. *

Thanks.
You don't know how many times I've read that and missed that.
It's obvious that the power isn't in the hair.
It's in the obedience.

Thanks, again.