I've been wondering for a while what the heck the Russians think they're doing...

Not long ago they came out of a horrible communist dictatorship and it looked for awhile like they were going to go places... but I have yet to hear good news from that place for well over 6 years...

it's always something... throwing free media people in jail... selling mach 3 missiles to Iran... consolidating money and power in the state... A growing re-identification with its USSR past... a growing dependence on the military industrial complex...

and now this
Russia's nationalists call for ban on Jewish groups
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050125/1/3q3ee.html

I mean... wth... are they stupid, insane, or do they just prefer living like animals under a tyrannical regime...

It's beyond me... Kind of sad when you think about it all... we want to ally with Russia... they have potential... but if this keeps up they'll have to suffer through decades or perhaps centuries of this stupidity before they're ready for a strong alliance that isn't based on inherently anti social militarism.

I'm on a Russian forum... i post there about once a week... all they talk about are their weapons and seem to be blissfully unaware that they're urinating their future away.

I mean... literally every thread will have some reference to some weapon or other... they even think they have an Anti ballistic missile shield that works... I don't have the heart to tell them it's been obsolete since the late 60s.

Furthermore, they're even redeploying their spies to cold war levels throughout the US (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1022559,00.html). Understand that this was enough to cause massive paranoia in my country the last time. So doing it now will just engender the same response. Can Russia afford to take up this role with its far diminished? Do the Russian people honestly desire to be shut off from the rest of the world? Because if they keep this up… it seem inevitable.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Sounds like they're preppin for war.

- N

Not really, but russians love to be governed by a strong hand, it feels natural and right to them. The stronger the hand, the better, that's why many still like Stalin.
And a strong hand requires a strong weapon.

p.s. I live next to that impossible country, so better no war.

I don't think there will be war. I just think the Russian people have dark days ahead of them if they seek meaning and national identity in the old USSR.

I know they liked feeling powerful... and being feared is generally better then being pittied... but this course of action is only going to hurt them.

They need to stop relying on weapons sales to drive their economy and have the courage to accept the diversity of freedom.

If they don't, they'll remain a marginalized people. They have great potential... it's just a waste.

Yeah, right, now get that into their heads. :p
Btw- they are still powerful and still being feared in the region,
and why would they need to accept something if they can kill something?
No human - no problem. (Stalin) Seems pretty logical to me.

p.s. I hate Stalin, but very much like that quote.

Russian power is meaningless if the nation they're threatening has any major allies.

An alliance with the US, EU, or membership in NATO will mean you're totally safe from direct Russian aggression.

We can’t protect you from spies and such… we just don’t have those kinds of resources. But Russia would be doing the Atomic fandango in about 30 minutes if it tried to reassert its power by force.


As to accepting things, the people are where the power and the future come from. If you don’t invest in the people, your country will be weak.

It’s just a fact.

It's exactly the spy activity that is the biggest problem.
Before the Baltics joined the EU and NATO it was a hysterical activity from Russia not to allow that. They even installed a puppet president in Lithuania for a while (then he was impeached by the parlament for 1. not following his oath, 2. unconstitutional behavior).
In Latvia they organized local russian protests, street rallies, etc.

Now they have different goals, one of which is to gain power in one or more of the EU countries and work from the inside. And that's a threat to the whole organization, not just one country. Look what EAPC has turned into!!

Good thing is how miserably they failed their Ukraine campgain.

Of course you don't have to take me by word, not that it really matters.

Could any of this be a response to the increased belligerence of the U.S.? We're seen as dangerously out of control by the majority of the world, and a major threat to world peace. Our increasing unilateralism could very well spur a country such as Russia to pursue an arms buildup to counter a perceived threat. A classic example of the law of unintended consequences. Such as our funding of Islamic militants to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan leading to the destruction of the World Trade Center.

A slight majority of the people here just voted in favor of neo imperialism. We can hardly condemn the people of Russia for pursuing the same path.

The point is that we're watching them... and you're watching them.

They won't be allowed to get power. America isn't good at defending things... but we're f'ing stellar at attacking. Once we know the Russians are trying something in a specific country, then we can focus or resources on it and stop it (non-violent... billions of dollars have a way of making things happen).

You no doubt have your own methods... the above is just the way we work.


Peace, prosperity, and freedom to all your people. Karmashock.

Could any of this be a response to the increased belligerence of the U.S.? We're seen as dangerously out of control by the majority of the world, and a major threat to world peace. Our increasing unilateralism could very well spur a country such as Russia to pursue an arms buildup to counter a perceived threat. A classic example of the law of unintended consequences. Such as our funding of Islamic militants to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan leading to the destruction of the World Trade Center.

A slight majority of the people here just voted in favor of neo imperialism. We can hardly condemn the people of Russia for pursuing the same path.
Your harsh and highly controversial opinion of Bush doesn’t match the serious crackdowns in Russia. That country is limiting free speech in a way that you couldn’t compare to the US on your most fierce mushroom trip. The dependence in their economy on weapons sales is only fueling their insecurity as they sell weapons in many cases to people that hate them.

That country still hasn’t gotten rid of the rot of the old empire. And until it does, it will remain a degenerate and pitiable people… to say nothing of a source of cheap effective weapons technology to the third rate tyrannies of the world.

The situation in Russia is quite Russian, there does sadly seem to be a correlation btwn strong handed leadership and economic growth. Putin is a neo-Soviet leader to be sure, democracy in Russia at least a liberal democracy is all but dead. Russia is increasingly becoming a very important country again, you forgot the most important equations in all this, Russia is the energy empire. Russia has 60 billion barrels of oil, and by far the world’s largest reserves of NG. Europe is being fed by Russian oil, and gas. Russia’s power is much more then military, her military since 1989 has been depreciating and it needs to revamp. Russia has many threats to her security, with a declining population Russia needs to protect her borders somehow, and with China becoming either a threat or an ally Russia is trying its best to make China an ally. Russia’s population should half by 2050, which is not a good omen. Russia’s decline is much worse then what the government is doing; it is largely due to the criminal capitalism that had been created under the oligarch’s etc. Soviet nostalgia is coming back, because Russia without it seems lost. Russia hasn’t created a new culture, it’s stuck in its past, and I know there are young, capitalistic Russians out there, but they are largely in the US, or other western nations leaving reactionary elements at home, like the nationalists. I wouldn’t be surprised if Russia goes Fascist/Nazi.

It's very sad. As you say they have a great deal of oil, but more importantly, they have a great many people that could and should be free.



Perhaps the proper response is to give them a great big hug so they knock it off... I don't know what we're supposed to do with them. To back to a state of cold war is utterly futile.

The U.S. often sells weapons to countries that hate us. And as often as the right wingers in this country blather about "freedom" they have a curious notion as to what the word means.

A Denver police sergeant is under investigation for allegedly threatening to arrest a woman Monday for displaying on her truck a derogatory bumper sticker about President Bush.

"He told her that this was a warning and that the next time he saw her truck, she was going to be arrested if she didn't remove the sticker," said Alinna Figueroa, 25, assistant manager of The UPS Store where the confrontation took place. "I couldn't believe it."

Karasek then walked into the store and confronted Bates.

"He said, 'You need to take off those stickers because it's profanity and it's against the law to have profanity on your truck,' " Bates said. "Then he said, 'If you ever show up here again, I'm going to make you take those stickers off and arrest you. Never come back into that area.' "

McCrimmon, who had followed the officer into the store, said Karasek wrote down the woman's license-plate number and then told her: "You take those bumper stickers off or I will come and find you and I will arrest you."

Bates said she hasn't had many complaints about her sticker, which has shared the space on the back of her truck with many other stickers since August.

She said she put the sticker on her truck because she disagrees with Bush's stance on homosexuality and "other issues."

"I get some older men who pull up at the side of me and start yelling and cussing," she said, "but it's not a crime unless they take some action."

Colorado ACLU Legal Director Mark Silverstein said that the alleged threat of arrest clearly violates First Amendment protection.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_3495709,00.html

And the right support the Patriot Act which allows the arrest and indefinite detention of anyone (yes, including U.S. citizens) simply by declaring them a terror suspect. And of course the right always support arresting and jailing people for the crime of using certain substances that they've deemed harmful.

The "conservatives" here and in Russia have much in common. Freedom of choice is an unwanted burden for many people. And basking in the reflected glory of an empire is so flattering to the self esteem of many that the rivers of blood necessary to achieve the goal are of little consequence.

First and foremost we need to set a better example for Russia. But the problem of how their country will be is for Russians to solve. Any move that smacks of coercion will likely be counterproductive.

But does our government really want to encourage developments that would see Russia succeed to the point of being a serious geopolitical rival to our interests? Or would the powers that be prefer to see Russia remain weak and easily exploitable?

I personally would like to see Russia follow the examples of western Europe, with peaceful parliamentary democracies and sucessful economies.

What weapons do we sell to nations that hate us?

Remember to link time with the weapons sold.

Further, that Police officer only told her to take it off because it apparently contained swear words... it was profane. That said, his order was contradicted and he was told that he was not on the right side of the law. Beyond that, that had NOTHING to do with the Patriot act.

The Patriot act does nothing of the kind.

Unlike Russia, the US is a healthy society... Russia's actions are making it less healthy and it can't afford that.

As to how to help them... I want the Russian people to be free.

Our government would rather have Russia as an ally then an annoying second rate tyranny.

I personally would like to see them free, open, and unafraid.

For example, there were the weapon sales to the Shah's Iran, Saddam's Iraq, and present day Saudi Arabia.

You're right, it evidently only does so for aliens.

The Patriot Act’s Provisions

Under the proposed legislation, the Attorney General will have the ability to "certify" that the government has reasonable grounds to believe that an alien is a terrorist or is to be engaged in other activity that endangers the national security of the United States. Once that certification is made, and someone is labeled a potential threat, the government will be able to detain him or her indefinitely — based on secret evidence.

It is unclear how a court reviewing such a decision will handle the secret evidence. It is also unclear whether the accused will have access to the evidence — no matter how weak or speculative it might be.

Moreover, the Patriot Act authorizes deportation as well as detention. Specifically, it states that an alien is deportable for contributing funds or material support to a terrorist organization — or for contributing to any non-designated terrorist organization, if the alien knows or reasonably should have known that the funds or material support will further terrorist activity.

Not only will the alien’s future actions be suspect, but his past actions are also fair game. The Patriot Act will be applied retroactively to non-citizens.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/commentary/20011005_ramasastry.html

They evidently decided that they could just arrest and detain citizens indefinitely without the aid of the Patriot Act.

On the first anniversary of suspected "dirty bomber" Jose Padilla's detention in a military brig without access to counsel or charges, we recommend you read this speech by Judge Learned Hand from May 21, 1944 at the "I Am an American Day" ceremony held in Central Park, New York City. "Many thousands of people were present, including a large number of new citizens. Learned Hand's brief address was so eloquent and so moving that the text immediately became the object of wide demand. It was quickly printed and reprinted and also put into anthologies."

Here is but one great line:

Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies there it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it.

Jose Padilla, an American citizen, has been branded an "enemy combatant" and imprisoned for 13 months, 12 of which have been in sensory deprivation, all because of one man, Defense Department Advisor Michael Mobbs, and his two page declaration containing hearsay "intelligence."
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/002842.html

Do you think that police officer was actively trying to arrest everyone he saw with a bumper sticker with a "bad" word on it, or was his indignation reserved for those with "profane" anti Bush stickers? A police officer who has never heard of the First Amendment, imagine that.

First, none of those powers were enemies when the weapons were sold.

Second, most of those weapons were sold under the auspices of Kissinger’s Realpolitik... which has been discredited. The current political movement in power actually has great contempt for those policies.

Third, your cited provision does not apply to citizens. The element that does deals with expanding the anti organized crime legislation to include terrorism. This is fitting and logical.

Fourth, Padilla is the exception. Furthermore, the STRONG reaction by ALL SIDES in his case makes it unlikely we will see more of this. Freedom is alive and well in the US. We have been through worse and come out of it stronger. Your quote about the spirit of freedom says it best.

Fifth, profanity is not protected speech. You can't post obscene words on the side of your home. You can't put naked people on a billboard. There are words that you can't say on broadcast TV or radio. Likewise, you can tell someone to take a profane message off their car. It can say bad things about Bush. It can say "Bush = Hitler" or "Bush = the Devil", but can't say "Bush is a M^therf^cker"(word altered so that I am not profane in turn). This is all the officer was saying and I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. I think he was right to warn the woman and I don't see any reason why people should be surprised by any of this. This has been common in this country since our founding.


Please return the discussion to russia, comments about the US and patriot act belong in another thread.

You didn't say sell weapons to our enemies (though I'd say there is an argument that the Saudis are just that), you said that the Russians sell to countries that hate them. I pointed out that we do just the same.

Back to First Amendment school for you. From the linked article:

Colorado ACLU Legal Director Mark Silverstein said that the alleged threat of arrest clearly violates First Amendment protection.

"The Supreme Court considered a case about 30-some years ago where a person was prosecuted for wearing a jacket that said, 'F--- the draft,' on the back. The Supreme Court said states could not prohibit people from wearing such a jacket," he said. "They said, 'One man's profanity is another man's lyric.' "

Though the strong reaction has seen Padilla finally allowed legal counsel, I notice he is still imprisoned. And he still has not been charged with a crime.

http://www.chargepadilla.org/

And by the way, fuck Bush.

The Saudis are part of the problem not the enemy. There is a distinction.

Banning profane messages has never been a violation before, so I see no reason why it should be now. You can write them in books or put them up in private. But they're not protected if people have no choice but to see them. Seriously... read up on it if you don't believe me. There is nothing new here. This is being blown out of proportion.

Padilla has a great deal of energy focused on him. We'll find out what the issues is in the end. While I don't like the way my government handled it, I think we'll find that he was sympathetic to the terrorists and likely in league with them.

As to bush, do you have a point?


Seriously... back to russia. No more on this.

What do you think of Russia, don't just use the topic to spam about bush.

I said what I thought about Russia. You disputed my post. I am now defending what I said. That is not spam.

I looked it up.
COHEN v. CALIFORNIA

No. 299

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES

....Finally, and in the same vein, we cannot indulge the facile
assumption that one can forbid particular words without also
running a substantial risk of suppressing ideas in the process.
Indeed, governments might soon seize upon the censorship of
particular words as a convenient guise for banning the expression
of unpopular views. We have been able, as noted above, to discern
little social benefit that might result from running the risk of
opening the door to such grave results.

It is, in sum, our judgment that, absent a more particularized
and compellingreason for its actions, the State may not,
consistently with the First and Fourteenth Amendments, make the
simple public display here involved of this single four-letter
expletive a criminal offense. Because that is the only arguably
sustainable rationale for the conviction here at issue, the
judgment below must be

Reversed.
http://www.epic.org/free_speech/cohen.html

By saying fuck Bush, I'm attempting to condense my contempt for both the man and his supporters in the most succinct manner possible. That is my point. And also exercising my constitutionally protected First Amendment rights.

Again, back to russia.

As ot your case, it doesn't change the fact that you can't have swear words on your car, public side of your home, or in anyway force such words upon the public. This is a simple fact and I don't see why you should be bothered by it. You can express your views without resorting to those 7 words.


As to f' bush, there are other ways to do that that are less vulgar. Furthermore, it is not protected anymore then wearing a t-shirt with hardcore porn on it is protected.

I know you're aware of what I'm talking about and I don't see why you're fighting me when you're so obviously wrong. Some things are and have been restricted since the birth of the republic. This is how it has always been and there has never been a significant will to stop it. If you polled the nation, I'm sure most people would be fine with telling their peers to restrain vulgar words or pornographic material from being forced upon the public. If you want that stuff, then no one will stop you so long as you recieve it in a concentual environment. But a bumper sticker is not a consentual upon the person behind you in traffic. Ergo, there are about 7 words you shouldn't use to say nothing of pornographic material.


This is and has been law for as long as this nation has had laws.


Love and peace, Karmashock.

You fail the reading comprehension test. Or are you simply pretending to be stupid? The freedom to have "fuck the draft" on your jacket clearly applies to a bumper sticker, or any other public place for that matter. Read the case. You are arguing against precedent established by the Supreme Court of the United States!

No, I didn't bother to read it. There isn't any point. I know the law.

The political message is not in question, but the vulgarity is. If what you say were true then the f' word would be used freely on the radio and tv. However, they are FINED for doing so. What does that tell you? Notice how no big billboards ever have profanity on them (minus spray paint)?

Figure it out.

If I polled the nation, I'm sure I would find the majority poorly understand their constitutional rights. Hence the political popularity of attempts to criminalize burning the U.S. flag. Fortunately our rights are not taken away just because the majority do not understand them.

So you "know" better than the SCOTUS? Ok, I'm done with special ed Fred here.

An individuals right to freedom of expression is not the same as a broadcast networks. Billboards? If I wanted to, I could pay to have Fuck Bush put on a billboard. I might run afoul of a local law, and have to go to court. It might have to go all of the way to the SCOTUS again before precedent was established. Or a lower court might (probably would) see it as falling under precedent.

But I think I'll go shopping for a Fuck Bush bumper sticker. That's all of the freedom of expression I have money for.

First, you're wrong. I'll present something tomorrow that will establish this.
Second, if you want to run with scissors, that's your own buisness. Enjoy the fallout.
Third, spam someone else's thread with irrelevant nonsense. This thread is about Russia and so far you've contributed nothing to it. You've taken it off topic from the start.

Please either discuss russia or go away.

Russia's nationalists call for ban on Jewish groups
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050125/1/3q3ee.html


Judaism is an international religion, hence naturally opposed to nationalists. Thus nationalists worldwide of every race oppose Judaism and other internationalist ideas, including globalism.

And who's to say that any country has to admit everyone who wants in? Sounds like a bad policy to me. I definitely don't want any religious fanatics near me.

:m:

No, I didn't bother to read it. There isn't any point. I know the law.

The political message is not in question, but the vulgarity is. If what you say were true then the f' word would be used freely on the radio and tv. However, they are FINED for doing so. What does that tell you? Notice how no big billboards ever have profanity on them (minus spray paint)?

Figure it out.

Commerce and interstate communication in a public bandwidth are separate from private speech, according to the law.

Judaism is an international religion, hence naturally opposed to nationalists. Thus nationalists worldwide of every race oppose Judaism and other internationalist ideas, including globalism.

And who's to say that any country has to admit everyone who wants in? Sounds like a bad policy to me. I definitely don't want any religious fanatics near me.

:m:
if that were so then any patriot would oppose any international religion. That is uncommon. In fact, only in hte last century have we seen that. First the soviets and then the Nazis...

THere is no excuse for this.
=============================
Commerce and interstate communication in a public bandwidth are separate from private speech, according to the law.
billboards and vulgar messages painted on the side of your home are also within the public sphere of control IF everyone has to see it as they go by.

do the legal math.

As ot your case, it doesn't change the fact that you can't have swear words on your car, public side of your home, or in anyway force such words upon the public. This is a simple fact and I don't see why you should be bothered by it. You can express your views without resorting to those 7 words.

Whatever, man. People that are against curse words just have their panties in a bunch. As if saying "Screw Bush" is any different? A word is just a word and no matter what word you use, you know the person's intention. I hate Bush, screw Bush, Bush is a moron, whatever you can think of, it is no better or worse than saying fuck Bush. A word is just a word. One can think of more disgusting and offensive ways to say what they want to say by using appropriate and non-offensive words yet the offensive one that is less mild is worse? Gimme a break. Those types of nitpicking people need to find something more productive and worthwhile to argue than some silly words.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Russia goes Fascist/Nazi.

That’s exactly what I was thinking. The reason why I said they’re prepping for war is because of all the signs of going towards Fascism. And with the power and mentality that Russia has always had, it’s only obvious what is to come of it: war. They’re not going to build up their empire and nationality all for nothing just sitting around in their own weakened country all because they want to show their pride. Russia wants her power back and seeing the manipulation that the U.S. is doing to expand on her power, Russia is going to do just the exact same thing. No way in heck are they gonna sit by the sidelines and let this all happen without them, they want a piece of the action too. The U.S. needs a counter-balance with the crusade it’s involved in. Yes, China is the next military power but I doubt they’ll actually do anything. China just wants to build up itself and since the U.S. has a part in it, they won’t do anything about us until they reach their peak. Russia has the experience and the drive of power to be the one to actually do anything about it and it’s not like they have much to lose anyways. People think times and mentality changes but it doesn’t. It’s still all about power and trying to rule the world and to think that someone like Russia no longer wants to do so is silly. So right now they’re setting everything up to come back into power and prep for some future war.

THere is no excuse for this.

Well the U.S. is trying to do the exact thing. While the Russian’s don’t want any Jews into their country, we don’t want any Mexicans in ours. Sure, we try to play nice and say all immigrants, but we all know it’s just about that group. Like we’re really gonna try and protect our border from Canadian or European immigrants to come in. Nope, just the southern states.

You seem to love your country and be nicey nicey with everyone, peace, love, and happiness, but you need to wake up to the horrors of reality. Take those blinders off, please.

- N

Whatever, man. People that are against curse words just have their panties in a bunch. As if saying "Screw Bush" is any different? A word is just a word and no matter what word you use, you know the person's intention. I hate Bush, screw Bush, Bush is a moron, whatever you can think of, it is no better or worse than saying fuck Bush. A word is just a word. One can think of more disgusting and offensive ways to say what they want to say by using appropriate and non-offensive words yet the offensive one that is less mild is worse? Gimme a break. Those types of nitpicking people need to find something more productive and worthwhile to argue than some silly words.
All people are asking you is to have a little respect for the public... You can express any opinion you like. have tiny bit of respect for your common man. Don't use the 7 words and no nudity...

if you can't handle that, then you're not being reasonable.


Well the U.S. is trying to do the exact thing. While the Russian’s don’t want any Jews into their country, we don’t want any Mexicans in ours.
Mexicans come to the US seeking a new life. Jews have fled Russia for decades in fear of their lives.

There is no comparison.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

What is happening in Russia is the same as what’s happening in the US. Rights are taken away when the majority do not protect them. In neither Russia nor the US are rights being protected, hence they are being revoked by those who gain money and power that way. Rights are given or restored only when the people demand them or in the rare event it serves politically. Naturally it’s much harder to gain or regain a right than it is to lose one.

The reason that rights are not being protected in both the US and Russia is the same reason. Both of these countries have long warred and subjugated for profit. The survivors are getting better at revenge, and now the majority of the citizens in the US and Russia feel that giving up some rights is the solution. What happens instead of course is that they are added to the list of the oppressed.

This is basic strategy from the book 1984. WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH. The majority of both Americans and Russians now believe it.

All people are asking you is to have a little respect for the public... You can express any opinion you like. have tiny bit of respect for your common man. Don't use the 7 words and no nudity...

Respect, I agree. But that is something entirely different from limiting only curse words as opposed to disrespectful words as a whole. To allow "I hate Bush" as opposed to "Fuck Bush" is hypocritical. They're both disrespectful but neither is anymore wrong than the other. Not to mention that we DO allow curse words everywhere, we just bleep them as if nobody knows what they're saying. As you wrote earlier:

but can't say "Bush is a M^therf^cker"(word altered so that I am not profane in turn).

Altering doesn't change anything, we know what you're saying. Altering it is still using that word and it in no way makes it less profane. You writing that makes it profane. However, I don't see the word as profane, I'm just letting you know that by using your rules and ethics, that shouldn't be allowed yet it's allowed everywhere on the radio, tv, news articles, etc. It's silly to alter stuff, lol. Ya may as well just use the full word.

Mexicans come to the US seeking a new life. Jews have fled Russia for decades in fear of their lives.

There is no comparison.

No comparison? Why do people come to the US seeking a new life? If their previous one wasn't so bad, they wouldn't be seeking a new one in the first place! It's all about survival and those Mexicans fleeing their country both are fearing for their lives to survive. But both countries, the U.S. and Russia are wanting to kick those people out. How is kicking out people any less different from one another?

Anyways, on topic, I don't feel Russia is any more sane or insane than the U.S. They're each doing the exact same things to keep their power. Whatever one may think of Mother Russia, the same applies to us so people should be careful in what words they sling.

- N

What is happening in Russia is the same as what’s happening in the US. Rights are taken away when the majority do not protect them. In neither Russia nor the US are rights being protected, hence they are being revoked by those who gain money and power that way. Rights are given or restored only when the people demand them or in the rare event it serves politically. Naturally it’s much harder to gain or regain a right than it is to lose one.
Media people are being put in jail and having their papers and newcasts shut down in russia.

There is no comparision to the US.

The reason that rights are not being protected in both the US and Russia is the same reason. Both of these countries have long warred and subjugated for profit. The survivors are getting better at revenge, and now the majority of the citizens in the US and Russia feel that giving up some rights is the solution. What happens instead of course is that they are added to the list of the oppressed.
What rights specifically did we lose in the US... something material... Cus my life hasn't changed and I don't think the government can push me around any more then it ever has or will.
This is basic strategy from the book 1984. WAR IS PEACE, FREEDOM IS SLAVERY, IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH. The majority of both Americans and Russians now believe it.
Indeed.

Who is saying our liberation in Iraq is the US enslaving the people there?

Think about it... if anyone is playing with the meanings of words its' them.
==========================
Respect, I agree. But that is something entirely different from limiting only curse words as opposed to disrespectful words as a whole. To allow "I hate Bush" as opposed to "Fuck Bush" is hypocritical. They're both disrespectful but neither is anymore wrong than the other. Not to mention that we DO allow curse words everywhere, we just bleep them as if nobody knows what they're saying. As you wrote earlier:
Political freedoms must be protected at all cost.

So saying "I hate Bush" must be protected. Writing "fuck Bush" on a poster of a guy getting fucked in the ass by a horse is not protected. It's just vulgar.

Vulgarity is not protected in the public sphere. You can spread, look, and jerk off to that all you like in private. But not in public.



Altering doesn't change anything
Yes it does. It's less vulgar. It's still not going to make my grandmother happy. but had that woman had sticker that said "F^ck Bush" instead of "Fuck Bush", then she wouldn't have been cited.

No comparison? Why do people come to the US seeking a new life? If their previous one wasn't so bad, they wouldn't be seeking a new one in the first place! It's all about survival and those Mexicans fleeing their country both are fearing for their lives to survive. But both countries, the U.S. and Russia are wanting to kick those people out. How is kicking out people any less different from one another?
Give me a break... are millions or people immigrating to Russia every year?

no. People are leaving.

The US is a place people from all over the world come to start a new life. Americans only get upset when they think those people aren't adopting american cultural values... or if you go back to when we were pretty racist...


Anyways, on topic, I don't feel Russia is any more sane or insane than the U.S. They're each doing the exact same things to keep their power. Whatever one may think of Mother Russia, the same applies to us so people should be careful in what words they sling.

Russia is killing its future. The US is in no such danger.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

"What is happening in Russia is the same as what’s happening in the US", Zanket

Are you seriously comparing the two?

"In neither Russia nor the US are rights being protected, hence they are being revoked by those who gain money and power that way", Zanket

The Russians never had rights, in either communism or their ridiculous version of Democracy. If Bush got elected with 75% of the vote, without even campaigning as Putin did, then we can compare. The corruption level in Russia is their extraordinary problem, and no form of government can save it.

http://www.globalcorruptionreport.org/download/gcr2004/11_Country_reports_L_Z.pdf

According to the global corruption report, Russia ranked 86th out of 133 nations, and last among the bribe payers index. The United States was 18th out of 133 nations. Please, let us not try to compare the rights of the two.

"The reason that rights are not being protected in both the US and Russia is the same reason. Both of these countries have long warred and subjugated for profit", Zanket

While one can make a reasonable argument that both these nations treated "other" nations poorly during the cold war that is comparable but still unequal, i think it is ridiculous to compare the treatment of their governments to their own citizens. While Americans may have lost a small amount of rights after the patriotic act, many of those laws have been questioned and many will be overturned over time. Russians never had any rights to begin with, and I am not sure ever will.

I think the problem here is that many members of this forum have not talked to any "real" people in these countries or visited a nation poorer than their own. You cannot learn very much by sitting in front of a glowing screen, but have to experience the result of these governments firsthand. Or talk to those who have in person. Then you may truly learn the difference between American rights and that of a Russian.

Media people are being put in jail and having their papers and newcasts shut down in russia.

There is no comparision to the US.

I mean “what is happening” only in regards to the changing political current of the people, as implied by your first post in this thread. But since you mention it...The media is controlled in a different but just as oppressive way in the US, by letting companies own a large percentage of local media to suppress independent voices. A company can own 45% of a local market in the US. This has led to the dominance of Republican misinformation media like Fox News. The Republicans want to increase the percentage to 55%. Leveraging their 45%, Republicans are more likely to get their 55% and beyond. Then the now-budding dictatorship will become fully realized. The Republicans must control international media as well. When Bush could not get Al Jazeera to stop reporting info that made him look bad, he bombed them.

What rights specifically did we lose in the US... something material... Cus my life hasn't changed and I don't think the government can push me around any more then it ever has or will.

A right is not material. A right is like insurance; you don’t notice its omission until you need it. With the Patriot Act you lost your 4th amendment rights. You no longer have the right to be charged or tried before being imprisoned. You no longer have the right to notice when your property is searched. If you are given those things, it was out of courtesy and not because it’s the law. The Constitution was significantly modified outside of the constitutionally-mandated process for changing it, and the people let that happen. They’ll have a tough time restoring those rights.

Who is saying our liberation in Iraq is the US enslaving the people there?

I am, for one. It’s obvious that we are enslaving them. It’s a puppet government being created.

Think about it... if anyone is playing with the meanings of words its' them.

Who’s “them”?

Karmashock

Are you totally insane? the only reason russia is in a hole is because of the change to capitolism and the so called communist dictatorship by which I think you meen Cruchev? wasnt a dictatorship at all things were going very well. Then gorbachoff and yelsin decided... hey lets fuck this place up and make ourselvs rich.. and thats exactly what happened. The thing that angers me is some stupid prick is arguing about something that dos'nt matter to him at all, stop living in your xenophobic Semi-Cold war nationalist dream world.
what the ruskis gonna nuke you is that your problem... I think the biggest concern to human survival is GW bush.

And also your so called Land of the free in which I lived for 7 years is a nazi war camp , when you can actually compare it to other countries you notice the amount of freedoms your loosing by going over there.. the only people who enjoy coming there are ones who had nothing in the past, and need to start a new life.. (by being a frigin cab driver)

Why are people not coming to russia? because in 1992 the self proclaimed democratic president (yelsin) helped by the cia, tanked the white house to get power oh and wait....and in 1998 the economy collapsed?! want to know why? its because you cant reform a governemnt from Socialist to capitolist in 5 years!

And putin who everyone seems to hate so much has done more for the country in his 4 years in office than that drunk bastard yelsin did in his entire life. But hey.. the enforcers of global freedom and democracy didnt care... now that someone strong is in power its immediate panic among the circles of the world where strength in russia is a bad thing.

As for Antisemitism in russia... thats not true there are few Antisimits in russia bet they are there... this cannot be applicable to the entire nation... as you know most of europe was antisimitic far before the second world war.

Are you seriously comparing the two?

Yes, within the realm of which direction the political tide is moving. In both countries dictatorship is strengthening.

The Russians never had rights, in either communism or their ridiculous version of Democracy. If Bush got elected with 75% of the vote, without even campaigning as Putin did, then we can compare. The corruption level in Russia is their extraordinary problem, and no form of government can save it.

They have rights (http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/russian/const/ch2.html) however tentative they may be. Granted they have mass corruption. The majority of people in any country can fix any political or corruption problem if they choose.

Please, let us not try to compare the rights of the two.

I compare the two only in regard to whether democracy is waning or waxing. Russia has more democracy today than they had twenty years ago. Now the trend is reversing, the same as in the US.

While Americans may have lost a small amount of rights after the patriotic act, many of those laws have been questioned and many will be overturned over time.

Nobody knows whether they will be overturned. Given the increased power gained by the Republicans in the 2004 election, there is certainly no overturning on the foreseeable horizon.

You cannot learn very much by sitting in front of a glowing screen, but have to experience the result of these governments firsthand.

I learned what rights the Russians have in about ten seconds on Google. My sister-in-law and some coworkers are Russian. It would be better to live there for a decade, but of course I decline.

" First, you're wrong. I'll present something tomorrow that will establish this."

Still waiting. I've presented case law to strengthen my argument. All you've presented is contradiction. To review.

Appellant was convicted of violating that part of Cal. Penal Code § 415 which prohibits "maliciously and willfully disturb[ing] the peace or quiet of any neighborhood or person . . . by . . . offensive conduct," for wearing a jacket bearing the words "Fuck the Draft" in a corridor of the Los Angeles Courthouse. The Court of Appeal held that "offensive conduct" means "behavior which has a tendency to provoke others to acts of violence or to in turn disturb the peace," and affirmed the conviction. Held: Absent a more particularized and compelling reason for its actions, the State may not, consistently with the First and Fourteenth Amendments, make the simple public display of this single four-letter expletive a criminal offense. Pp. 22-26.

1 Cal. App. 3d 94, 81 Cal. Rptr. 503, reversed.

Karmashock,
Russia has never had an easy time with freedom. Their entire history, way back to the czars and coassacks and even before Cryllic, were always hardass barbarians. Hardass Stalin was really only natural, as is the ex-KGB spook they've got now. They're not insane; just Russian.

And for the record, you got off topic by putting words in Repo Man's mouth and talking about Bush first.
Repo said:
Could any of this be a response to the increased belligerence of the U.S.? We're seen as dangerously out of control by the majority of the world, and a major threat to world peace. Our increasing unilateralism could very well spur a country such as Russia to pursue an arms buildup to counter a perceived threat. A classic example of the law of unintended consequences. Such as our funding of Islamic militants to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan leading to the destruction of the World Trade Center.

A slight majority of the people here just voted in favor of neo imperialism. We can hardly condemn the people of Russia for pursuing the same path.

All he mentioned was current trends of imperialism (if you can't see them, we should probably just stop here) with the administration. Bush isn't really in control. There's a heap of other people who are running the federal government.

Too which you reply:
Your harsh and highly controversial opinion of Bush doesn’t match the serious crackdowns in Russia. That country is limiting free speech in a way that you couldn’t compare to the US on your most fierce mushroom trip. The dependence in their economy on weapons sales is only fueling their insecurity as they sell weapons in many cases to people that hate them.
Repo's opinion of Bush was hardly controversial and hardly harsh. We've both seen far worse. In fact, Repo wasn't really addressing Bush, but the current direction the US is heading, and your support of it. If you think imperialism is a negative name, perhaps you should vote for the limp wristed democrats.
Your mushroom trip insult was hardly called for.
You also say Russia sells weapons to people who hate them, not enemies. America also sells weapons to people who hate us, like the Saudis. We do not sell to enemies (you didn't specify enemy, you specified enemity), but we sell to more than just friends.

By Android:And who's to say that any country has to admit everyone who wants in? Sounds like a bad policy to me. I definitely don't want any religious fanatics near me.

Probably the first time you've ever said anything I agree with. We certainly don't need anymore Christian, Jewish or Islamic fanatics here in the U.S.

Karmashock,
Repo's opinion of Bush was hardly controversial and hardly harsh.
I think its unsupportable.

We've both seen far worse.
Sure... something is always worse, but I have standards.

In fact, Repo wasn't really addressing Bush, but the current direction the US is heading, and your support of it. If you think imperialism is a negative name, perhaps you should vote for the limp wristed democrats.
I think it's unsupportable and his bias on the issue was obvious and completely off topic. Russia has been building to this point since before Bush was even elected. So bringing it up has no basis in reality, but a transparent attempt to make another thread about Bush = the devil. Which frankly bores me to tears.

That is not this topic and anything along those lines should be ignored by all.
Your mushroom trip insult was hardly called for.
I have to find someway to amuse myself while wading through this drivel.
You also say Russia sells weapons to people who hate them, not enemies. America also sells weapons to people who hate us, like the Saudis.
I thought the Bush's were friends of the Saudis? Which is it?

I'm tired of the double talk.


We do not sell to enemies (you didn't specify enemy, you specified enemity), but we sell to more than just friends.
I'm asuming this is a typo... clarify.


=====================
=====================
=====================
People get on topic or this thread has no purpose. I joined this forum assuming that people come here to have intellegent discussions and I find little more then what you find on the lowest politics forum wrapped in web comic forum... it's just sad. Please get on topic.
=====================
=====================
=====================
Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Politics/World events here are the same as religion section. Full of biased zealots and nobody listens to anyone, doesn't change the stance no matter what.
A generalization, but not as wide as I would like.

The fact that karmashock's arguments are backed by biased and propogandised information dosnt actually improve the arguments. right now people who live there havent started to rebel against the civil structure, many wish it was back to the 1970's and the socialist way of life. And in the past 4 years there has been great improvement in general eg. the economy is finally stable and rising, money has started to be spent into scientific reserch and law enforcement. Fixing the mess yelsin left is not an easy task.

There would have been a mess either way. The soviet economical system had collapsed. Of course, too much was robbed away in Yeltsin era.

p.s. I lived in the USSR.

OMG karmashok do you even read the links you post... yahoo news..wow its full of different viewpoints... oh and this "A foreign ministry statement issued on the eve of President Vladimir Putin's attendance at the Auschwitz memorial commemoration in Poland said "the statement has nothing to do with the official position of the Russian leadership."

The seven-page call signed by 20 members of the 450-seat State Duma" THATS NOT EVEN A TENTH of the parlament! how can you even imply on antisemitism with that kind of statistic.

Avatar. ye me to and to be honest I prefered it to what russia turned into now.

Karmashock Since I cant remember how much bullshit you have posted ill do this peice by peice... You also stated that The moscow ARDS is obsolete since the 60's

well since it was set-up in the late 70's early 80's i really doubt that...

Quote: Russian power is meaningless if the nation they're threatening has any major allies.

An alliance with the US, EU, or membership in NATO will mean you're totally safe from direct Russian aggression.

We can’t protect you from spies and such… we just don’t have those kinds of resources. But Russia would be doing the Atomic fandango in about 30 minutes if it tried to reassert its power by force.


As to accepting things, the people are where the power and the future come from. If you don’t invest in the people, your country will be weak.

It’s just a fact.

first of all most of europe hates america more than they hate their neighbour to the east in addition to russia being part of the european trade union and actually agreeing to the kyoto protocol. as for nato.. russia wouldnt want to attack anyone but america (among the NATO alliance) and once that happens which it wont! there will be a nuclear war and everyone will die! yey. your living in some cold war xenophobia of russia and i think its caused by the fact that you are a teenager who has listened to too many of his grandfather's stories about the bad ass ruskies.

Ye And Karmashock you seem to be convinsed that there are more freedoms taken away in russia than there are in america , I will tell you right now that that is total bullshit , i have lived in both countries. There are no owners of the free press being thrown in jail the ones in jail are ones who spent the depression in the 90's leaching from the crippled post soviet empire by this I meen the following: Fraudulation of income taxes ... mafia Etc.. I have never seen a single news chanel taken off the air.. and if it were filltered as you suggest iIdoubt they would leave it so depressing. On the contrast.. america land of the free... I get detained in the airport for having An anti american novel in my carry-on luggage... not to mention my nephew getting suspended from school for showing any dislike in the american political system in his history class... Another thing that I hate is the filltered news controlled by the FOX corp ( I dont know if you hav e noticed that all the news Broadcasts are owned by the same guy who owns the fox network... but wait hes friends with bush so thats NOT a monopaly) ... and the stupid breakfast shows with diet tips and what to do thease easter holidays...(Chicago. IL)

not to mention my nephew getting suspended from school for showing any dislike in the american political system in his history class... (Chicago. IL)
*gasps* ..but somehow... I'm not that surprised.

p.s. What about HTB? I don't have a tv, but my father watches russian news and the few programs I've seen - they're much, much more pro-government right now. How was that program... "Itogi" I think.. nothing like that now.

p.p.s. I'm not saying that Fox News or CNN is any different!

*gasps* ..but somehow... I'm not that surprised.

p.s. What about HTB? I don't have a tv, but my father watches russian news and the few programs I've seen - they're much, much more pro-government right now. How was that program... "Itogi" I think.. nothing like that now.

p.p.s. I'm not saying that Fox News or CNN is any different!

ye HTB = NTV in english is quite pro government but they still hosted an equal amount of campaign advertisements for all candidates during this election...
I think the reason the shows are so pro government right now is because they started to beleive putin for once... they still host debates on the matter though.

as for Itogi.. i think they still show it .. but its probablly been replaced by a reality show or some stupid dating show... I saw it not so long so i think it's still running.

Itogi -> other reporters, other essence. It's bleak as a sky of smog (when I saw it last).
I haven't seen it lately.

Quote by KArmashockK "I thought the Bush's were friends of the Saudis? Which is it?"

YE good question.. I thought they were friends with sadam in the past aswell and with osama and with the taliban.. Which is it?

Avatar: "Itogi......funny stuff.."

I think I saw it this summer when I was in russia... might have been some other boring show.

think the reason the shows are so pro government right now is because they started to beleive putin for once.

That, or maybe because the owner now is a state owned company.

That, or maybe because the owner now is a state owned company.


Ye I suppose it could be but HTB still hosts the show "Kukli" which makes fun of politicians.
But speculation is always a good thing . :rolleyes:

It's not a speculation, I followed all the HTB drama when it happened. And it wasn't an american intepretation of it, but the reporters of HTB were voicing it on radio stations, etc. Sorry, I don't remember the name of the new owner company.

p.s. I know "Kukli", it is funny. (Or at least it was, haven't seen it for two years or so).

ok you know best :p , but kukli is still shown.. the last one was when yelsin and putin went fishing.. forgot what happened after that..

But going back to KArmashock's statement of antisemitism in the duma...

That is bullshit... 450 statesmen 20 voted for it because they thought the organisations were extremist.. unfortunately we have a very varied parlament and some idiots got in.

It's very sad. As you say they have a great deal of oil, but more importantly, they have a great many people that could and should be free.

Free from what? Russians don't seem to like what we in the West consider free if they are wiling to re-elect Putin by a margin of 70%, its very ethnocentric to believe that our western conception is the only one, replace "freedom" with Islam...and you should now realize why American's are so hated.

It's very sad. As you say they have a great deal of oil, but more importantly, they have a great many people that could and should be free.

Free from what? Russians don't seem to like what we in the West consider free if they are wiling to re-elect Putin by a margin of 70%, its very ethnocentric to believe that our western conception is the only one, replace "freedom" with Islam...and you should now realize why American's are so hated.

LOL I like that post ill print it out and hang it on my wall.
;)

one thing though.. I would prefer putin to G W bush anyday.

Hey Guys, Peace upon thee, don't fall in the trap of Andre's law of conservation of concern (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=724748#post724748), (substituting global warming with Americans or Russians or Jews, whatever may fit). Better fight global warming or so.

wow... well, the commies are obviously going make some sad attempt at saving their dead philosophy...

Anyone that isn't interested in living in tyranny have a comment to make?

I take it from your post you have nothing intelligent to say other than to insult someone elses beleif system?
and im not a commy im an Odinist.. my own beleif that i dont really give a shit about anything...

I don't see what's so horrible about dictatorship. Well, the neighbouring countries are always dissatisfied, but it seems like their reasonings are only that the dictatorial government doesn't favor them much.

Odinizm, I don't know about your nephew being suspended for anti-american things and about you being detained.... Never happened to me. Throughout my school time, in each class that ever mentioned US, they always had plenty of negative things to say about the US gov't and nobody got in trouble for that (NY). I think the only way someone can get suspended in school is if he/she is violent or forges a signature. Plagiarism isn't punished either. I admit the FOX news is icky, but most of the people don't watch it. UPN 9 is what my parents watch. I myself and my friends watch the bbc website. Shows about diet and workout go during such a time of day that they can only be watched by house wives, many of whom are fat by the way. So... can you further explain your problems with US? I don't like it much either, I only want to hear your reasons.

BTW, I love the "Kukli" show! I watch it every time I come over my grandparents' house.

wow... well, the commies are obviously going make some sad attempt at saving their dead philosophy...

Anyone that isn't interested in living in tyranny have a comment to make?

It’s sad and funny how you don't think your not living in a tyranny. Do you honestly think that the “modern” US under Bush has been a Mecca of freedom? This president who has taken away your rights, this president that has committed your nation to a never ending war, and taking your rights as a result of this war. Increasing poverty, and the poorest in your society voting for the same people that will only make them more poor. If you think that the US is a country isn’t on the brink like Russia then your wrong, the more the PNAC crowd in voted into office, the more centralization and consolidation of power will continue unabated, and the saddest thing is that the elite in American society is manipulating the population to do its bidding…if you think Iraq was over WMD you must be kidding yourself, that’s what the elite want the sheeple to believe to reap the benefits…alas corporate welfare but instead of subsidies its American lives. So while you jingoistic Americans think you are living in the freest country on Earth, and think you know what is best for everyone, we (the rest of the world) are fucking you over big time.

says the man that likely defends the very system that inspired 1984.


it is funny... it's out right comical.

says the man that likely defends the very system that inspired 1984.


it is funny... it's out right comical.

Mind showing me where I defended what? What is funny is the utter lack of cognitive rebuttal, you know since you didn’t rebut anything I said instead attack me, you must then agree with the assertions made that the US is spiriting to 1984, or should I say 1991 (remember that place called the USSR?).

Mod: This thread is getting pointless and is now going to go down further, unless someone PM's me with a good reason to reopen its closed

Thread is reopened after request, but more junk like the last few posts and it will be closed for good, if you dont like what someone else if posting ignore it

Thread is reopened after request, but more junk like the last few posts and it will be closed for good, if you dont like what someone else if posting ignore it

And I thought this was a forum! :rolleyes: STUPID ME!

Yeah, I was the culprit.
Anyways on our talk about censorship and media in Russia, I think that those who are interested will find this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4233023.stm) BBC article very interesting.
It is about two problems really. One is censorship ->
The Russian parliament's lower chamber, the Duma, has barred a pianist from performing in the canteen after she played a tune with criminal undertones.
.. She was suspended for three weeks after she played the 80-year-old tune Murka.

And the next is about Russian duma (parlament)
The newspaper suggests that such issues emerge in the Duma because "MPs have nothing to do when all laws are dictated by the presidential administration".
.. The pianist is said to have explained that Chopin was not conducive to MPs' digestion, so she had given in to their requests to play music from classic Soviet and Hollywood films, such as The Godfather

I think this is a nice glimpse of what is Russia like, a small glimpse.

Ye you find idiots everywhere unfortunately avatar I dont like the situation much either.

WhiteWolf. I hated the neo nationalism when I lived in america.. it followed me everywhere... I only started noticing it after a while mainly from the older generations, news, and education system.

To elaborate further. I will tell this joke...

2 weeks after 9/11 2 cars collide at a traffic light. one car a red jeep with 11 american flags attached or stuck to the car and the other a blue Honda containing only 7 american flags... The owner of the jeep jumps out and screams at the driver of the honda an elderly man about 5ft 8 "You Arab BA$tard!"

As for news... The fox chanel is a good example..

And as for my nephew it was an argument over history... I think it was about thanks giving... An argument over the slaughter of indians turned into a questioning of Freedom .. and ended in him walking out of class.. later on being suspended, when he claimed the teacher was forcing false information into his head.

Yeah, I was the culprit.
Anyways on our talk about censorship and media in Russia, I think that those who are interested will find this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4233023.stm) BBC article very interesting.
It is about two problems really. One is censorship ->
Wow... talk about touchy. I can't think of any tune that would even get people to get upset... perhaps the old nazi anthem or something, but that's an extreme example that proves the point... and in any case, they'd only get upset... no action would be taken against the person.


And the next is about Russian duma (parlament)


I think this is a nice glimpse of what is Russia like, a small glimpse.
I guess I'm more surprised that that hollywood soundtracks are as acceptable as old soviet tunes... kind of weird really. :)

Ye that story surprised me aswell... I guess lots of starnage individuals found their way into the duma... Although many are still sitting there.. for years and years many from pre 1991 days and from the yelsin era.

I still dont understand why they would cause a fuss over murka... unless there is a hard lining bolshevik still alive somwhere in the duma... or somone who likes to complain alot to show his power (meglomania) although you get people from older generations who dislike newer music.

I like that radio station although the style predates me by about 40 years, its a reminder of better times for most I guess.

As for hollywood music... the godfather tune is just so cool... :D
and it was always popular even in the far past... there was alot of rock from america and bands like abba circulating along with russian music in the soviet times (not stalin of course).

I think the fact that they've got an ex kgb guy as president is kind of telling... I guess we're just going to have to wait for that generation to get old and die off... We've got the time.

The KGB is not dead. GIP (Russian CIA) is also not. Although the names change.
Anyways, I would not want Russia to be too weak.
1. Because of China;
2. Because of order in the Southern regions;
3. Because of a counterweight to the USA.

Russia will get weak because she has a quickly dying population, as does Latvia! OH NO, I propose Latvians have more sex ASAP, Avatar I am sure you can assist.

Not really, I'm sort of a monk here.

About the population - as does whole Europe!
Besides, I don't think we actually need a large population. The days of trench warfare are gone. Why should we need a larger population?
Anyways, our planet needs less people trashing it.

Not really, I'm sort of a monk here.

As are most Latvians it seems...

About the population - as does whole Europe!

The whole thing no...most yes.

Besides, I don't think we actually need a large population. The days of trench warfare are gone. Why should we need a larger population?

Well look:

Population Latvia:
1920:1,596,000
1985:2,570,000
2005:2,563,000
2025:2,559,000
2050:1,659,000

Also if you don't have more children your economy, and standard of living will collapse.
Anyways, our planet needs less people trashing it.

But don't u want Latvian babies doing the trashing?

No, I don't see the difference.
That's the problem with people today -> too trapped in their culture and not thinking globally. They're thinking americans, latvians, brits, not mankind.

Population Latvia:
1920:1,596,000
1985:2,570,000
2005:2,563,000
2025:2,559,000
2050:1,659,000

About 700 000 are russian imigrants (most are descendants of ocupants) from the USSR days.
Also if you don't have more children your economy, and standard of living will collapse.
Shit happens. But most people are too poor to afford many children. When you have a choice to feed good and educate one child or three children running with no clothes around - the choice is not hard. We all want better future for our children, we want them to have good education and happy childhood.

p.s. We had a strong economy in the late 1920-1930

They're thinking americans, latvians, brits, not mankind.

Ava...I thought u weren't a fan of mankind?

About 700 000 are russian imigrants (most are descendants of ocupants) from the USSR days.

Which only goes to show how low the native Latvian population has fallen from 1920.

Ava...I thought u weren't a fan of mankind?
No use sticking head in the ground, no? I am mankind.
---

back to Russia: Yes, it's population is falling dramatically (even more than that of Latvia's), so the sane choice would seem Russia splitting into smaller states with the CENTRE remaining powerful and controlling the smaller ones.

No use sticking head in the ground, no? I am mankind.

You are part of it...yes...but from former convo's I would have surmised you weren't to found of non-European mankind.

back to Russia: Yes, it's population is falling dramatically (even more than that of Latvia's), so the sane choice would seem Russia splitting into smaller states with the CENTRE remaining powerful and controlling the smaller ones.

Well to an extent that has already happened, remember Russia is a federation. The problem with Russia is mostly past the Urals in Siberia where the population is only 16 odd million living in a area the size of India or Brazil, and China in Manchuria alone as over 70 million people. The Yellow tide has been slowly invading Southern Siberia, and could spread.

you weren't to found of non-European mankind.
Oh, I am not (thinking africans and americans), but my subjective appeals don't change the facts for what they are.
The Yellow tide has been slowly invading Southern Siberia, and could spread.
True and I know of it, that's why Russia has to stop robbing their own country and actually working for it. I think Putin is doing that (although I am not fond of him as a citizen of Latvia, but I would have been if I were a citizen of Russia, if I was russian.).

Oh, I am not (thinking africans and americans), but my subjective appeals don't change facts for what they are.

Americans? As in native Americans?

True and I know of it, that's why Russia has to stop robbing their own country and actually working for it. I think Putin is doing that (although I am not fond of him as a citizen of Latvia).

The problem is much deeper then anything Putin can do, the country is experiencing a slowdown and even negative population growth rates, how can Russia justify its territory without the population to support it? Already Russia’s population imo is too small for the size of Russia, and there has to be a large population along the trans-Siberian to maintain Russian sovereignty over the area, or else China may gobble it up one day, and move West which has always been a fear of Europe.

Americans? As in native Americans?
No, then I would have said ethnic americans or american indians, I am thinking of the US general population here.
or else China may gobble it up one day, and move West which has always been a fear of Europe.
True since the days of mongols. That's why I was thinking of a devided-many country russia. It could have a strong centre (Moscow) and several "stronghold countries" with concentrated population and developed economics at strategical points, territories.

No, then I would have said ethnic americans or american indians, I am thinking of the US general population here.

Interesting…I mean since many are European…but most people don’t like Americans. I hope Canadians are exempt…

True since the days of mongols. That's why I was thinking of a devided-many country russia. It could have a strong centre (Moscow) and several "stronghold countries" with concentrated population and developed economics at strategical points, territories.

Which would be logical…but again this is Russia. Almost no where in Russia is the population increasing, so even if these states were created they would be weak as well. Although I don’t see China actually invading Russia due to Russia’s nuclear capability, but China will increasingly control Russia’s economy, especially the Siberia area, China’s Latin America.

That's why I was thinking of a devided-many country russia. It could have a strong centre (Moscow) and several "stronghold countries" with concentrated population and developed economics at strategical points, territories.

After a small fiasco at the end of USSR, can you seriously see Russia breaking up even more? :D Over their dead bodies! If such a thing happens, they'll keep competing among each other for leadership (after all, what the heck does Moscow know about far-off regions?) and they'll be even weaker than they are now.
I guess the Asians will simply mix in with the Europeans, the way they quietly mix into American population.

Unless we kill them. :D

Do you have anything against the Asians? It's off-topic, but their culture is just as ancient and valuable as the European one. And they're not hostile. (Though I heard rumours of some few Asian terrorists that were here but disappeared into the abyss the way everyone does in US.)
It's also fair to admit that Russians are spreading just as quickly. Immigration plays a good part in decline in the country's population; same as it plays a good role in diminishing population of Latvia. I have seen very few actual Latvians here though; most are Russian Latvians. So I guess it'll be necessary to mix the Russian half of Latvia with the Latvian half, but all takes time....

I have nothing against asians, it was a joke.

I laughed.

warfare are gone. Why should we need a larger population?
Anyways, our planet needs less people trashing it.
There are more things to do with a population then breed to be a meat shield in some war. You decide what you want your nations to look like, but I'd rather have a higher population in the US. :)

I'd rather have more air to breathe. :)

I'd rather have more air to breathe. :)
well, our population density is probably a lot lower then where ever you're from. The US still have a population growth between 30 to 40 percent... we have the resources and the interior is pretty empty. :)

Nah, the country is pretty empty.
We have ~2,400,000 people in 64 000 sq km
1/3 is living in the capital city.

Well... you have a population growth rate of "-0.71%"... so I should think you'll get your wish. :)
Birth rate: 8.87 births/1,000 population (2004 est.)
Death rate: 13.73 deaths/1,000 population (2004 est.)
Net migration rate: -2.23 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2004 est.)

In the US we have a population growth rate of about " 0.92%"... so I'll get my wish too... though not perhaps as fast as I'd like. :)

Birth rate: 14.13 births/1,000 population (2004 est.)
Death rate: 8.34 deaths/1,000 population (2004 est.)
Net migration rate: 3.41 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2004 est.)

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Im willing to assist in re-populating both latvia and russia :)

Anyway if worst comes to worst we'll ask china for a few hundred million to raise the populatin bar a little... they have to speak russian though and like russian cartoons to apply. :)

ok there are 365 days in a year.. i can raise the population by about 420 a year and with the help of avatar mayb e 1000 in total.. thats due to twins and so on. :rolleyes:

here is the current growth rate:

Population: 145,470,197 (July 2001 est.)
Age structure: 0-14 years: 17.41% (male 12,915,026; female 12,405,341) 15-64 years: 69.78% (male 49,183,000; female 52,320,962) 65 years and over: 12.81% (male 5,941,944; female 12,703,924) (2001 est.)
Population growth rate: -0.35% (2001 est.)
Birth rate: 9.35 births/1,000 population (2001 est.)
Death rate: 13.85 deaths/1,000 population (2001 est.)
Net migration rate: 0.98 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2001 est.)
Sex ratio: at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female under 15 years: 1.04 male(s)/female 15-64 years: 0.94 male(s)/female 65 years and over: 0.47 male(s)/female total population: 0.88 male(s)/female (2001 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 20.05 deaths/1,000 live births (2001 est.)
Life expectancy at birth: total population: 67.34 years male: 62.12 years female: 72.83 years (2001 est.)
Total fertility rate: 1.27 children born/woman (2001 est.)
HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate: 0.18% (1999 est.)
HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS: 130,000 (1999 est.)
HIV/AIDS - deaths: 850 (1999 est.)
Nationality: noun: Russian(s) adjective: Russian
Ethnic groups: Russian 81.5%, Tatar 3.8%, Ukrainian 3%, Chuvash 1.2%, Bashkir 0.9%, Byelorussian 0.8%, Moldavian 0.7%, other 8.1%

Actually, the Russians and Ukrainians are coming to the USA... most of them become engineers or technicians... they’re typically a surly bunch too… :D

I swear… in SoCal, if you call in an electrician or a plumber, 9 times out of 10 he’s a Slavic immigrant. :)

Everyone finds their niche… the Irish became farmers, police officers, fire fighters, and dockworkers… the Italians became butchers, merchants, florists, and factory workers… every group becomes what we need at the time they come.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

Most russians I ever met in America were usually scientists, who left Russia due to bad financing in scientific reserch.

Yeah... we have a lot of those too... though honesty, many of them become technicians... it's hard to be accepted as a scientist in the US with a Russian diploma... kind of sad, but nonetheless the truth.

nothing to be ashamed of... honestly you get paid much more as a technician in most cases then a scientist... so if you came here for money, that's a better bet.

Yeah... we have a lot of those too... though honesty, many of them become technicians... it's hard to be accepted as a scientist in the US with a Russian diploma... kind of sad, but nonetheless the truth.

nothing to be ashamed of... honestly you get paid much more as a technician in most cases then a scientist... so if you came here for money, that's a better bet.

Actually a russian diploma is very valuable in america.. trust me I know first hand ... many people skip a level eg from master straight to PhD graduate and get paid over 60k in their first years... In physics its even more so.. a person from Phystech university in moscow can become a senior professor in a blink of an eye.

as or engineers.. I'll agree very well paid job especially if you work for a military manufacturer like I plan to do :p

If you say so... you'd likely know better then myself... though what I have said is what I have been heard. :)

Well thats what politics are all about isnt it :p

Indeed... image is very important. :)

The greatest power is to control image. If you can do that, then you don't even need to use power... you can just suggest power and it does the same thing. :D

The greatest power is to control image.
Depends on the audience.

Depends on the audience.
not really... if you can control image then the situation is yours... whoever they are...

we'r going off topic again... how about we try to estimate the situation in the world in the next 50 years???

2020 russia is basically destroyed due to america placed pawn in control of the country bringing it to an economic and military death.. siberia is quickly taken by china for the good of socialism, estonia gets the Novgorod area.. since they want it so badly...
mcdonalds replaces its logo with a golden ? which imediately launches numbers of jokes.
America is crippled due to the bad leadership of one GW bush .. but still has a firm hold over a number of nations...
Ukrain is in deeep because their president decided to sit for a 3rd term but live in the bahamas on money stolen from the national bank
Iran and syria have been (regeim changed)

2030

China is now an official super power
Japan is still really cool
America.. is now an actuall peace keeper because they elect first ever gay president and go into a golden age.. because he spends the national budget on schools and health care .. and sold the military to iceland.
Russia.. no longer excitsts
Latvia.. make third euro disney land causeing massive tourism and boosting the national economy
Estonia.. get bombed by russia before its inevitable end
israel... were nuked in 2013 by cuba... :o
Cuba: the 52nd state
Brazil: stabalised by discovery of oil in the southern basin
Egypt... still covered in sand
Britain... spent all its money on wind power and is doing quite well

Global Currency:

Dollar: 13.02
Pound: 9.10
Yen: 60.00
Yuang: 5.01
Euro: 24.50

Rubel... used as toilet paper in the newly established (Monarchy of novgorod)

you forgot that in
2021 - The Klandacktoo empire of the beta epsilon galaxy takes Australia as their landing site for the first colonial hive ship.

oh and the new currency
Oblete (kind of a pink crystal): 1000.00 (maintained at that value by trading currencies.)

um the higher the number the worse it is

Odin'Izm

I have estimates of Real GDP (imo inaccurate) in 2030:

China:14,312,000,000,000
US:20,833,000,000,000
India:4,935,000,000,000
Russia:2,980,000,000,000
Brazil:2,189,000,000,000
Japan:5,810,000,000,000
Germany:2,697,000,000,000
France:2,267,000,000,000
Italy:1,671,000,000,000
UK:2,649,000,000,000

Assuming the world economy doesn't collapse.

um the higher the number the worse it is
kind of irrelevant really... it's more a unit of measurement then of value. What's more imporant is the circulation and if you can keep a consistant value. Any country can make it's currency go up or down. It's hard to keep it flat and in circulation.

Eitherway... the Klandacktoo empire is only interested in puppies... we don't know why yet...

they use them to power hteir space ships.