If you look at the current geo-political crisis in the world today, many of the situations stems from one basic thing. Islam, is Islam a common enemy? Since the fall of the USSR in 1991 the world sadly was "looking" for a new enemy. Sadly they found one, Islam. Radical Islamists have hated the West and Socialist East alike. The terrorist killings in 1972 in Munich highlighted this for the first time to the western world. A new sneaky enemy had arrisen from the depths of Arabia. A lot of animosity in the Muslim world towards the west stems from the support of Israel. This was shown to great effect during the 1973 oil crisis, in response to the wests support for Israel. To many the modern era of anti-American terrorism began in 1979 with the embassy hi-jacking in Tehran. Then the attacks against Americans in Lebanon by Hezbollah. The Hi-jackings of planes throughout the 80's, the attacks by Abu Nidal on the Achille Loro (sp), and the Rome massacre. Then the Libyan sponsered attacks against Americans in a German nightclub, and the 1987 bombing of Pan Am over Scotland. But all this was tame and really all government sponsered terror. The 90's brought a era of independant terror organizations. Which don't depend on the nation state for funding. Al Qaeda (the base) was largely a private venture by multi- millionaire OBL. The attacks against Americans had shifted towards a more hostile and overt attacks on the US. The OBL story can be traced back to Yemen which has always been a hot bed for Muslim dis-content. But the Young wealthy OBL decided to go do something to help in the fight for Islam against the USSR in Afghanistan. For a muslim it was "posh" to go fight for Islam espeically in Afghanistan at the time. In 1987 with the war at a all time high the young OBL made Al Qaeda, by 1989 the war in Afghanistan ended in a Vietnamesqe disgrace for the USSR. By 1991 the USSR had collapsed and the young OBL felt that Islam had a big part in finishing off the "evil empire". :rolleyes: Anyways, the Gulf War in 1991 was a turning point for OBL, he offered Saudi Arabia his troops to fight Saddam as long as the western infidels don't base in S.A. But obviously S.A picked the US for assistance. This angered OBL very much due to the fact that the US was based on Sacred Islamic land. By 1993, retailiation had hit the US, the first unsuccessful bombing of the WTC in NYC. In 1995 Al Qaeda struck again this time in Saudi Arabia itself, in Khobar towers complex which hundreds of American soldiers died. Then in 1998 the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. This time the US hit back against the Fundamentalists in Afghanistan. With Tomahawk missiles attacking a training camp. Also attacking a drug factory in Khartoum, Sudan. (OBL had lived in Sudan during the early 90's). Clinton then from that point onward had weekly discussions on terrorism. In 2000, another Al Qaeda attack had hit the US, this time in Aden, Yemen. The USS Cole had been attacked, by a small team of terrorists on a speed boat. In 2001 a new president was "elected" into office by the supreme court. His name... GWB. He was by all accounts a isolationalist, and not very smart. But 9/11 changed all that, the attacks changed America and the world forever. It was un-usual for the American public, a attack against them by a group of extremists not a state. Thus the PNAC gang now seized the moment, to literally take over the world. Since 9/11 the US has invaded two countries Afghanistan to try to get the terrorists, and Iraq (reasons unknown apart from PNAC). Al Qaeda has been degraded but she is not out. America now had troops in every corner in the world.

Israel has for a long time been the core of Muslim agnst. A state that was a result of three things: Zionism, Imperialist map making, and paying for Nazi crimes. The Establishment of a Zionist state in the Levant immediately caused chaos, 700,000 Arabs fled the region into "temporary camps". Israel had achieved one of the 20th centuries greatest military victories taking over much of the Arab land, and half of Jerusalem. By 1967 Israel it seemed was on the verge of a massive Arab invasion. She attacked first, Blitzkrieg style. She had utterly destroyed the air forces of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and even Iraq. She had expanded her territory into the W.Bank, Gaza, the Sinai, and the Golan. This only caused more problems than it solved. By 1972 the situation had gotten to the point where munich happened. Israeli atheletes were killed. Israel throughout the 70;s and 80's fought terror relentlessly. Especially the secular PLO, which in 1982 she invaded Lebanon to get rid of the PLO's influence once and for all. That turned into another card that fundies play against Israel. The attacks in Shattlia and other camps by non-Israeli's still create a aura of animosity towards Israel, especially Arial Sharon. By 1987 the first intifada was waged against Israel, which lasted until 1993. By 1994 the Oslo peace accords were signed. But when Arial Sharon went to the temple mount and claimed it for Israel it causes the second intifada. This intifada has been characterized by the growth and influence of Islamic not secular terrorist organizations. Suicide bombers have it seems become the staple of Islamic terror in the levant. To this day tensions are still tempered.

In Russia the idea of terrorism was scoffed at. Russia was a superpower no nation would be stupid enough to do that. But 1999 changed all that. In 1994 the Chechen people had UDI-ed. Russia could not and would not accept that. The Caucauses has always been a region of racial discontent. With many independance movements like the Abkhazians in Georiga, the Ossetians, and finally the Chechens. The ruthlessness of the Russian offensives were scary:

http://www.lurchmag.com/grozny-ap.jpg

Now by 1996 a cease fire was signed. But by 1999 a series of events had brought Russia back to war with a "rogue Oblast". The events in Dagestan with her oil made Russia have to crush them as well. The turning point was the apartment bombings in Moscow. Which brought the Chechen war home to the heart of Russia. Now with Yeltsin gone from office, and even more stern Putin came in and took the reins. Russia began to make advances in Chechnya. Increasingly desperate the Chechens went to Moscow to hi-jack a theater, I believe 800 persons were in that theater. This was one of the first times we've seen women par-take in a terrorist attack as such. The conditions were horrible within the theater. Russia had decided that something had to be done, she couldn't give into Chechen demands. So she had the air poisioned with a still unknown gas(?). Then in Southern Russia bus hi-jacking were common place. By 2003, the era of suicide bombing had reached this conflict a woman blew herself up in S.Russia. Then most lately a person blew themself up outside a Moscow concert. The situation now in Russia is more anti-Muslim then ever.

China, India, and the EU all have Muslim problems of there own. China it is the Xinjian region with Uygers who are fiercly indepedant and Muslim. India the Kashmir situation in which most of the population is indeed Muslim. And the EU with her declining population and her demographics threatened by "Islam."

Is Islam a common enemy? Or is it that the Rest of the world deserves what it gets from repressing the Muslims of the world?Is there indeed a "clash of civilizations?"

Written all by Nico ;)

This is as neutral as I can put it

I owe the topic deeper consideration, but I think a good deal of the "common enemy" sensation as anti-Semitism. In the days when Jewish needs dominated discussions of anti-Semitism, history revealed that many of the negative stereotypes people applied to Jews, while having certain dimensions of truth to consider, were often reflective of the vilification of Jews by Western society at least. One of my favorites is the stereotype about Jews and money. Hitler pointed to a concentration of wealth occurring among German Jews. Yet this heritage of money-oriented enterprise stems from a period in European history when Jews were not allowed property ownership, and commerce was about the only thing they could do to prosper instead of merely exist. And it's important to bear in mind in this country, where we forgive blueblooded WASP wealth but hear the occasional complaint about monied Jewish interests.

Islam, in its ideal, is scarier than hell to the average imperial interest, much like Christianity was. Transcending families and nations, Islam came to be perceived as a threat by those endowed interests it happened to inherently threaten.

The way of the gun, the way of the blade, has been the standard for interaction between Muslim and Christian (and post-Christian) interests. The 20th century alone does much to describe quite precisely how we have come to the circumstances in which we find ourselves so shortly into the 21st. Colonial exploitation, manipulative politics valuing abstractions more than people. The only reason we seize on this difference is that we can identify the "enemy" in Muslims.

I mean, given the number of violent criminals who also happen to be Christian or educated by the post-Christian experience in the United States, I still wonder why its Muslims we're cracking down on.

Oh, right ... it's easier to set them apart.

I think it might be that part of the world's enmity toward Islam is the choice of the world. A good portion of people's fears about Islam, as a culture, are invested wholly in what they already fear anyway, and they merely paint the picture with an Arabic face.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Due to the fact I deny the existence of organized religion (though not necessarily a supreme being) I have to say no. Why? Because Islam dosn't exist. Its just a bunch of people thinking in similar ways who need to get lives. Same with justabout every organized religion on earth.

Islam is NOT the enemy, it is the solution:

http://islamlobby.simplehost.com/images/isalmissolution1.jpg

No, death is the solution. You have no problems after you die. :D

nico! I enjoyed you take on history, especiall recent events. And yes, I think Islam has all the right stereotypes, bad image, and uncompatible culture to become a target or enemy of the 'new' world. The governments will deny it but the people will be able to read between the lines the governments draw for them. And Tiassa, there is a strong connection between anti-semitism and the potential for large anti-Islam sentiments. History can justify about any stereotype, and the lack of knowledge about Islam in Western countries will support any type of garbage that's shown to the people. I think many people in the US would associate Islam to terrorism before any of Islam's ways/teachings.

What Islam needs in the West is a symbol or person that educates people rightly about Islam, but doesn't appear to influencing Islam's ways on them. That's kind of hypocritical when you think about how Christianity went about "speading the word" but that's the only way Westerns would take any religion. It's too late to try educating person to person (as in teaching it in schools), there needs to be something as big as 9/11 but on the other end of the spectrum.....something away from the category of "evil-doer". Or the way events are happening Islam will soon be the enemy. Hey, all it actually might take is a new President of the USA :D

nico, in answer to your question, yes.

grazzhoppa:

I think Islam has all the right stereotypes, bad image, and uncompatible culture to become a target or enemy of the 'new' world. The governments will deny it but the people will be able to read between the lines the governments draw for them.

agreed.

and the lack of knowledge about Islam in Western countries will support any type of garbage that's shown to the people. I think many people in the US would associate Islam to terrorism before any of Islam's ways/teachings.

agreed.

What Islam needs in the West is a symbol or person that educates people rightly about Islam, but doesn't appear

there are many many Islamic scholars who are able to offer clear incisive information regarding both Islam, and Islam in the context of the current geo-political climate.
However such men do not make for sensational TV, hence I doubt you will be seeing them much on FOXTV.

There is a gentleman whos TV appearence on British TV impressed me greatly, however his name escapes me hence I would be grateful if someone would be kind enough to put me out of my misery. He is a convert to Islam, and has acted as an official adviser to George Bush in the wake of 911.
Anyone?

Nah, Islam is not the enemy. It is the Islamic Bombers and their camel-ass folk who are the enemy. Like some idiots around here, they should be gangraped until they die from blood loss.

Islam is the enemy of reason.

How so?

Originally posted by Wraith
How so?

Who knows? I think he's mistaking Islam for the hordes of Islamic $*@&$*@*$@'s who try to convert everyone to insanity, and a sort of weird sexual orientation where you start to fantasize about bombing people.

Islamists are the enemy.

P.S ok if Islam is the solution you speak of. How do you get to that solution, also what solution, for what?

I choose yes, not because I think Islam is the enemy but because the undercurrent in many nations policy is anti-Islamic, and only growing.

Originally posted by Spyke
Islamists are the enemy.

You are the enemy.

Originally posted by nico
P.S ok if Islam is the solution you speak of. How do you get to that solution, also what solution, for what?

I choose yes, not because I think Islam is the enemy but because the undercurrent in many nations policy is anti-Islamic, and only growing.

Ok, so most of you consider Islam is the enemy...fine, dont blame us for doing whatever we can to defend ourselves including having the nukes.

Originally posted by Deepuz
Islam is the enemy of reason.

And you have no reason to say so.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
...most of you consider Islam is the enemy... How do you come up with that take? :bugeye:

:m: Peace.

PS don't get me wrong, I personally don't believe Islam is the enemy. But the governments of the world are getting ready for some major Islamic conflicts here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Spyke
Islamists are the enemy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You are the enemy.

Yes, I know. Islamists declared that long since. Note, however, that I said Islamists, not Islam.

Ok, so most of you consider Islam is the enemy...fine, dont blame us for doing whatever we can to defend ourselves including having the nukes.

And don't be surprised if the US continues to try and prevent it.

-In 1995 Al Qaeda in the Phillipines, operatives planned to bow up to 12 B747-400 jetliners over the Pacific ocean (The 747 is the world's largest commerical airliner).
-Al Qaeda had decleared Jihad (Holy War) against the US in 1998.
-Post 9/11: Al Qaeda attacks US consulate in Karachi, Pakistan
-Al Qaeda attacks Israeli owned hotel in Mombasa Kenya
-Al Qaeda attempts to shot down a Israeli jet liner with a SAM (SA-7).

If I missed anything feel free to add.

Originally posted by goofyfish
How do you come up with that take? :bugeye:

:m: Peace.

Goofyfish: most of the time I see ISLAM BASHING threads, hateful racist comments against Islam and muslims on this forum and nothing has been done to counter this ugly hate.

Goofyfish, how would you feel if your faith, your colour or your identity is always attacked and insulted ??

It hurts, it really hurts.

This is not a Islam bashing thread, I even said at the bottom that this topic was originally neutral. All the things I wrote are true, no bias. The Questions were bias at the end, in your favour. So to call this thread bias and anti-Islamic is wrong.

Is Islam the common enemy?
Since when did Tim Mc Vey, the anthrax mailer, Mcdonalds, Nike, Starbucks, Brittney Spears, Justin Timberlake and the entire neo-conservative pantheon convert to Islam?

The enemy is the man who tells you who your enemies are.
Dee Cee

"It hurts, it really hurts."

Good.

"Who knows? I think he's mistaking Islam for the hordes of Islamic $*@&$*@*$@'s who try to convert everyone to insanity, and a sort of weird sexual orientation where you start to fantasize about bombing people."

What are you mistaking Islam for, Zero?

Your sentiments are noted.

At least we know what's important to you.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Your sentiments are noted.
At least we know what's important to you.

You know, my Ignore list is starting to concern me. I mean, if I'm going to pay a subscription to the forums, it'd be nice if people with "opinions" like Deepuz's got moderated.
Forget about ad hominem arguments (though you shouldn't), but even basic civility is ignored by freepers like him/her. :(

it'd be nice if people with "opinions" like Deepuz's got moderated.

Which opinions do you think deserve moderation?

"but even basic civility is ignored by freepers like him/her."

Terribly sorry if you feel I ignored you, old chap.

Just didn't see that there was much civility in this here forum.
Thought it was more just speak your mind and to hell with the consequences.

Pleased to meet you EI_Sparks. Wot Wot.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
...how would you feel if your faith, your colour or your identity is always attacked and insulted ?? It has been... by you... for about 300 or so posts. How do I feel? Rather sorry for you.If you dare to think to attack us, we will fight, we will fight to the end, we are not iraq, we dont have oppressive regime, we have great educated open-minded president, your threats made us all march under his leadership, we will crash you, we will cut your heads and hang them over the walls of our ancient cities...With your first post, you marched into these forums with a monster chip on your shoulder, and challenged someone to knock it off. Why would you be surprised if ignorance comes crawling out of the woodwork to take you up on it? I see it as a real parallel to many of the conflicts facing the world today - most especially in a relationship such as that between Arab and Jew.

Who gives a good goddamn what was done by whom to who and when? Is "who started it" really important anymore? Stop sticking your chin out and daring someone to punch it. Both sides are playing the victim when, if they really cared, they would be working to understand each other. But neither is willing to be the bigger person and say "enough."

:m: Peace.

Originally posted by tiassa
Your sentiments are noted.

At least we know what's important to you.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

Who do you speak for Tiassa? <we>

Your <plural> comments are noted. chin chin

I think the wrench that keeps getting into the works is a conflict of cultures and tolerance of other cultures. As several of debaters and I have increased my knowledge of the world of Islam, I have learned that Islam is more than just a religion, its a way of life. Deen I believe it was called. The culture of Islam finds the Western culture at worst offensive and at best misguided. And while western culture has become (or at least tried to be) more inculsive, the Islam that dominates headlines in the west is very much exclusive. The way we even consider issues is so opposite its hard to find common ground. Take the role of women in society. I debated long with Syrian and others about how what they considered as liberating behavior towards women was considered sexist almost to the point of misgynistic behavior in the west. We ended up that conversation with me walking away before it got ugly because we couldn't even agree on basic fundamental principals concerning women. They weren't hearing my arguments as much as I wasn't hearing theirs. Culturally we were so different as to be almost not speaking the same language.

The Judeo-Christian religions have become more tolerant of some like minded cultures because what they did between holy days wasn't that different. Life was structured similiarly enough as to have some common ground to frame discussions. Sure in the early days they were at loggerheads, and during the Crusades, Jews were usually killed in post seige sacking just like the muslims they were warring against. But as the power and pervasiveness of the Judeo-Christian beliefs started to wane, they have become more tolerant. Sure the hardcore believers are not tolerant, but in the west they are just a minority. A very vocal minority, I grant you, but a minority still. As Islam is spreading rapidly again (fastest since it spread into India and Turkey during the 1100s) so I believe it has a fast growing hardcore part that makes the whole look less tolerant. The intolerant hardcore is growing since the numbers of believers is growing. While in the west, a near zero population growth means the only truth growth comes from conversions, which I believe average out between major religions. (No data, BTW, just gut feeling). But in the case of the fastest growth Islamic populations, the rapid rise in the religion is a direct result of the rapid population growth. Islamic nations with lower birth rates tend to be more tolerant, higher birth rates less tolerant. Key word there is tend, but Morocco and Dubai with lower birth rates and higher basic education standard seem to prove my point.

And the more I think about it, the Western hardcore believers attitudes about birth control have fueled the increasing population, so the fundamentalist Christians have inadvertently helped create the Islam boom that they now rally against so hard. If you only have death control (hospitals) and no birth control, you get run away or massive blooms of populations. This is especially true in societies that have less access to higher education. For example: In 1980 Muslim's account for 18 percent of the world population, but by 2010 it will be 30 percent. The irony is Prophet Muhammad declared, “The worst problem is to possess plenty of children with inadequate means.” Yet some countries religious leaders still call for massive families. Iran is the poster child for this in the 1970s (reducing the legal age of marriage to age 9 BTW) and the population bloomed from 34 Million to 69 million in a very short time. The society nearly fell apart, and now Iran is the model of control winning the 1999 population control honor from the UN. (BTW female education and birth rates appeared to be linked in most studies I have seen)
Sorry for the tangent, but I think its good stuff so I will leave it in :)

India is tolerant, but still have a taste of hatred from the 1000AD period when Mahmud destroyed EVERY Hindu shrine or temple that he found during his 16 invasions in Hindustan. I think that some recent activity like it has fanned the flames of those old days. Indian culture (to me at least) has a live and let live feel to it, but can be vindictive when crossed. An example of his is how India isn't trying to gain revenge on England for their long imperial rule.

Chinese/Japanese cultures are tolerant to some extent as well, but I chalk that up to having more decentralized religions and burning desire to catch up (or keep up) economically to the West. While Japan fought bitterly against the west, it was more because the west was limiting Japanese expansion than any religious differences.

So after this long rambling post, I would not agree with Nico that Islam is the enemy really, they just need to return to there more tolerant side that exists even today. A great deal of tolerance exists at the person to person level, but until it becomes more publicly apparent (like goofyfish's statements about somebody has to stop first), the anger, distrust and violence between both sides will continue and each side will view each other as the enemy. When are we going to realize that we are really just fellow travellers, all just trying to get by on this little pebble we call earth. We should have figured out how to get along by now.

Originally posted by DeeCee

The enemy is the man who tells you who your enemies are.
Dee Cee [/B]

Very wise words........thank you dee cee.

When are we going to realize that we are really just fellow travellers, all just trying to get by on this little pebble we call earth. We should have figured out how to get along by now.

A lot of us have already realised this. It is those who continue to preach hate, intolerance, and prejudice against those who do not tow-the-line to their fantastical beliefs, who uphold their religious morality over and above any rational morality who cause all the problems. It really is quite simple.

Originally posted by goofyfish
[B]It has been... by you... for about 300 or so posts...


http://boards1.wizards.com/images/smilies/bow.gif


So well put, I'm almost crying now.

Originally posted by EI_Sparks
You know, my Ignore list is starting to concern me. I mean, if I'm going to pay a subscription to the forums, it'd be nice if people with "opinions" like Deepuz's got moderated.
Forget about ad hominem arguments (though you shouldn't), but even basic civility is ignored by freepers like him/her. :(

And so, in your opinion, everyone who displeases you should be moderated. Meh. Won't happen. Unless you buy this place off Porf and make it into EIsparks dot com.

btw, it's kinda disturbing that some people clicked "yes".

There is a difference between Islam and Islamists! One is just a set of doctrines, the other is a group of people who contain a significant number of nutcases.

Originally posted by nico
If you look at the current geo-political crisis in the world today, many of the situations stems from one basic thing. Islam
This is as neutral as I can put it

Thank you for demonstrating what your understanding of the word neutral is...I'll keep that in mind when conversing with you in the future.

What role did Islam play in the following crisis: just 2001 stuff, I'm sure you don't want the list of history conflict, because Europe name is all over it.

Bolivia: Clash between government troops and coca farmers; Charges of government using paramilitary forces.

Burundi: Rebellion by FNL (Hutus) against Tutsi-dominated government.

Cameroon: Secessionist protests turned violent, army called out; border dispute with Central African Republic flared up.

Central African Republic: Failed coup against President Felix Patasse; Rebels under former Army Chief General Francois Bozize fighting the government forces, which are backed by Libyan forces. New to list.

Chad: Rebel group in North (MDJT) fighting government forces, want President Idriss Deby to resign.

China: Uighur Muslim separatists in Xinjiang province; violent suppression of Falun Gong movement.

Colombia: Drug war; rebel groups against government forces and paramilitaries.

Comoros: Violent coup on island of Anjouan, which declared independence four years ago.

Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly Zaire): Assassination of President Laurent Kabila; civil war featuring government forces (joined by forces from Angola, Namibia and Zimbabwe) against MLC rebel forces (backed by Uganda and Rwanda, who believe Congo was a breeding ground for rebels in their own countries.)

East Timor: Militia violence; election violence; religious violence (Muslims vs. Christians).

Gambia: Violence preceding the re-election of President Yahya Jammeh; Senegalese separatists in Casamance may also be operating there. New to list.

Georgia: Chechen separatists in Abkhazia.

Ghana: Ethnic and political fighting between the Mamprusi and Kusasi in Northeast; excessive violent crime. New to list.

Guinea: Cross-border attacks by RUF rebels from Sierra Leone backed by Liberia; refugee crisis.

Guinea-Bissau: Government forces fight with Senegalese Casamance rebels that crossed the border.

Haiti: Attempted coup against President Jean-Bertrand Aristide and government raids in response; political violence; labor unrest.

India: Dispute with Pakistan over Kashmir; separatists in caste province of Assam.

Indonesia: Separatists in Aceh; ethnic violence on Borneo between Madurese and Dayak; political violence in East Java; religious violence on Sulawesi Island blamed on Laskar Jihad.

Iraq: Air strikes by U.S. and allied aircraft enforcing no-fly zones.

Israel: The new intifada and the Israeli response to it; A conflict on land possession issues.

Ivory Coast: Attempted coup against President Laurent Gbagbo; attempted countercoup; mutiny within the army; violent election followed by political and ethnic violence.

Jamaica: Political related gang warfare in Kingston; army accused of instigating further violence when called out. New to list.

Kenya: Ethnic violence in Nairobi slums between Nubian landlords and Luo tenants. New to list.

Kosovo: Continued interethnic violence; drug trafficking; organized crime.

Kyrgystan: Kidnapping and murder by Uighur militants from Xinjiang province of China.

Lebanon: Israel strikes a radar station, shoots down a light plane, strikes Hezbollah operating in Lebanon. Land possession conflict.

Liberia: Dissidents of the United Liberation Movement fighting the government in North.

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: Ethnic fighting between Macedonians and Albanian National Liberation Army; organized crime. New to list.

Malawi: Political violence preceding election. New to list.

Malaysia: Ethnic violence between Malays and Indians; drug and gang violence. New to list.

Myanmar (Burma): Fighting between government forces and the Shan State Army, a guerrilla group seeking independence for the Shan ethnic minority.

Nepal: Maoist insurgency; murder of royal family.

Nigeria: Religious fighting between Christians and Muslims; ethnic fighting between Egon and Tiv groups.

Pakistan: Dispute with India over Kashmir; terror attacks/bombings.

Papua New Guinea: Mutiny by soldiers over army downsizing; violent protests over economic reforms. New to list.

Russian Federation: Chechnya conflict.

Senegal: Secessionist rebels continuing 18-year struggle in Casamance province.

Sierra Leone: RUF rebels and pro-government militias fight in the North; Guinea conducting anti-RUF airstrikes.

Somalia: Warlords undermining transitional government; possible terrorist haven.

Spain: Continuing terror attacks by Basque separatists.

Sri Lanka: Tamil Tiger separatist rebels; election violence.

Tajikistan: Russian border guards skirmish with Afghans.

Tanzania: Political violence surrounding disputed election; separatist violence by Civic United Front in Zanzibar. New to list.

Thailand: Fighting in Myanmar has spilled over; terror bombings.

Turkey: Underground militant groups; ambush of soldiers; prison riots and related demonstrations; terror bombings; Kurdish rebels resume fight with army.

Uganda: Election violence; rural crime.

United Kingdom: Renewed violence in Northern Ireland.

United States of America: Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. New to list.

Uzbekistan: Repeated terrorist incidents, ambushes, narcotics trafficking. Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan associated with al Qaeda.

Yemen: Violence surrounding constitutional referendum; small arms proliferation; hotbed of Islamic militant extremism.

Yugoslavia: Ethnic Albanian secessionists in Presevo; narcotics trafficking; organized crime.

Zimbabwe: Violent land reform; election violence; violence against journalists; political fighting.

-------------------
http://www.un.int/drcongo/DecemberNews/00000029.htm
-------------------



I'm sick and tired of this Blame Islam for every god damn thing. Muslims make good and make trouble like everybody else. Think before you speak, get a total prospect on the problem before you point that ansy quick to judge finger of yours.

I typed list of all wars in history and this is what I got...
Credit to historyguy.com
http://www.historyguy.com/War_list.html

We need someone with good statistical skill who can compute the influence of Islam on world turmoil relative to other conflicts. I bet if we are allowed to round to the second decimal place, the answer would be zero.

Just a flavor of the site:

Revolution of 1848 (1848-1849)-Austrian government and Russia against anti-monarchist rebels and Czech and Hungarian nationalist rebels. The revolutionary fervor also led to the Italian War of Independence (1848-1849) . BELOW

Italian War of Independence (1848-1849)-Italian revolutionaries in Venice, along with the Italian States of Piedmont, Naples and, briefly, Papal State fought against the Austrian Hapsburg Empire. The Italian forces were divided and defeated by August of 1849.

Franco-Austrian War (1858-1860)-France and Piedmont against the Austrian Hapsburg Empire.

Schleswig-Holstein War (1864)-Austria and Prussia crushed Denmark.

The Seven Weeks' War(1866)-Italy and Prussia against the Austrian Hapsburg Empire...


Moderator edit: reduce length of quoted text

Originally posted by goofyfish
...Who gives a good goddamn what was done by whom to who and when? Is "who started it" really important anymore? Stop sticking your chin out and daring someone to punch it. Both sides are playing the victim when, if they really cared, they would be working to understand each other. But neither is willing to be the bigger person and say "enough."

Do you want us to sit watching your terrorists killers invading my country ????? you are too naive.

Do you want us to sit watching your terrorists killers invading my country

What are you doing about it?

yeah Proud Syrian, be proud and tell Deepuz exactly what are you personally doing about it.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Do you want us to sit watching your terrorists killers invading my country ????? you are too naive.And you are evasive.
Fix the problem, not the blame.

:m: Peace.

Thank you for demonstrating what your understanding of the word neutral is...I'll keep that in mind when conversing with you in the future.


Well Flores, I needed a intro to jazz up the subject ok. Secondly I did not say all learn the difference btwn all/many ok good.

What role did Islam play in the following crisis:

With glee:

China: Uighur Muslim separatists in Xinjiang province
They are muslims who are fiercly anti-Han/communist

East Timor: Militia violence; election violence; religious violence (Muslims vs. Christians).

Georgia: Chechen separatists in Abkhazia.
Chechens and Abkhazians are muslim

India: Dispute with Pakistan over Kashmir
Do I have to explain

Indonesia: Separatists in Aceh; ethnic violence on Borneo between Madurese and Dayak; political violence in East Java; religious violence on Sulawesi Island blamed on Laskar Jihad.
Indonesia will be a VERY violent situation in the near future, Al Qaeda has a huge base in Indonesia as well.

Israel: The new intifada and the Israeli response to it; A conflict on land possession issues.
Need I say more

Kosovo: Continued interethnic violence; drug trafficking; organized crime.
Albanian muslims vs. Serb Christians

Kyrgystan: Kidnapping and murder by Uighur militants from Xinjiang province of China.
look at the first

Lebanon: Israel strikes a radar station, shoots down a light plane, strikes Hezbollah operating in Lebanon. Land possession conflict.
Islamic terrorists in Lebanon

Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia: Ethnic fighting between Macedonians and Albanian National Liberation Army; organized crime. New to list
Macedonians orthadox vs. Muslim Albanians

Malaysia: Ethnic violence between Malays and Indians; drug and gang violence. New to list.
Hindu/Muslim conflict

Somalia: Warlords undermining transitional government; possible terrorist haven. Al Qaeda big time

Tanzania: Political violence surrounding disputed election; separatist violence by Civic United Front in Zanzibar. New to list.Zanibar is mostly muslim

Nigeria: Religious fighting between Christians and Muslims; ethnic fighting between Egon and Tiv groups.
also a big hot spot to watch

Turkey: Underground militant groups; ambush of soldiers; prison riots and related demonstrations; terror bombings; Kurdish rebels resume fight with army.
Secular Turkey against muslims kurds

United States of America: Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. New to list.

Uzbekistan: Repeated terrorist incidents, ambushes, narcotics trafficking. Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan associated with al Qaeda.
Uzbek is really cracking down hard on muslims

Yemen: Violence surrounding constitutional referendum; small arms proliferation; hotbed of Islamic militant extremism.
always been a hotbed from Islamic extremism

Yugoslavia: Ethnic Albanian secessionists in Presevo; narcotics trafficking; organized crime.

muslims and crime

So MANY of the problem in the world do stem from Islam, or Islamic countries. Granted some of these conflicts are around because of the imperialism of the 40's but in Central Asia which is the most viotile region yes Islam is indeed a big problem. You see it's not so much numbers Flores as it is importance and I highly doubt u even believe that a conflict in Lestho is as important as on in the ME.

(When I say Islam I am not talking about the religion I am reffering to the ideology as such).

Also Flores don't forget how much power Islamists have over the world. Arab states alone have 720 billion barrels of oil, 320 million ppl. Common don't be closeminded.

Zero

There is a difference between Islam and Islamists! One is just a set of doctrines, the other is a group of people who contain a significant number of nutcases.

Yes u are right Zero but the real question is who is winning the hearts and minds on the Arab/islamic street?

Dougermouse

Fellow onwar member, good post.

Originally posted by nico
[and I highly doubt u even believe that a conflict in Lestho is as important as on in the ME.

(When I say Islam I am not talking about the religion I am reffering to the ideology as such).

Also Flores don't forget how much power Islamists have over the world. Arab states alone have 720 billion barrels of oil, 320 million ppl. Common don't be closeminded.


Who makes a conflict in the ME more important than any other conflict. Based on what is this importance established. Based on the number of dead, I doubt it, for muslims have never caused any of the world renouned masacres. On the other hand, they muslims have been massacred plenty. The million Algerians on the hand of the French, the Palestenian on the hand of the Israelis.

As far as you pointing out that Islam is the cause of some ethnic fights, I'd like to point out to you that it takes two to tango, but it seems that you think that muslims tango alone.

And thank you for boiling this down to the 720 billion barrels of oil for 320 million people, I couldn't be so good like you and remember the numbers. Now explain, why do the muslims have to be so offensive, afterall they seem to have riches and resources. Could it be that they want to be left alone, and It seem to me that others who need the resource and don't have it would be the offensive ones who aggravate the arabs at all costs to steal their resources.

Let me explain to you the situation at our level. Let's use Mr. Zero, for he seem to be interested in me, read my posts, and for some reason love me. Let's say that I started by saying, muslims countries in possession of oil should keep their resources and sell them at just prices., then zero turns around and calls muslims facist pigs who are bigot, ect, ect. Then I turn around and say, but they are not pigs because this and this and this, and they are not bigots because of this and this and this, and then he turn around and say you are blind, you don't see real life, and I turn around and insult him back. Let's assume this process is taking 100 years, and during that process generations are peaking on the problem. Of course the most recent generation will only hear the back and forth insults and they are most likely to support zero if they were his kids and my kids will support me. Zero can also cheat and try to look like a dove by brining issues that don't even relate to this matter just to get me to say the wrong thing and his fan club would increase. This is exactly the East/West story

Who makes a conflict in the ME more important than any other conflict.

Simple, oil, religion, and money.

The million Algerians on the hand of the French, the Palestenian on the hand of the Israelis.


Did I deny that happened? Of course the west kills muslims, past and present. But the point of this topic was what the west thinks not the east. Does the west think Islam is a threat, and the answer is yes. Just like the east thinks the west is imperialistic and power hungry (which we are).

As far as you pointing out that Islam is the cause of some ethnic fights, I'd like to point out to you that it takes two to tango, but it seems that you think that muslims tango alone.


Granted but who starts to dance? That is the difference here. Indonesia is a very good example of Islamic extremism gone to levels beyond.

Now explain, why do the muslims have to be so offensive, afterall they seem to have riches and resources.

The problem Arabs/Muslims face is intolerance, just like Islamofascists are intolerant of western culture. You do have riches but they are in the hands of the few, the Saudi's and other such emirs. If you want to angry at the wealth situation look at your own Arab heads of state not the west.

Let me explain to you the situation at our level

Firstly my level is surely higher than yours, and the reason why? I wouldn't be such a arrogant shit to actually say that to anyone. The Rest of your post was a troll against Zero basicly so hope to see actual debate soon.

Originally posted by nico
Let me explain to you the situation at our level

Firstly my level is surely higher than yours, and the reason why? I wouldn't be such a arrogant shit to actually say that to anyone. The Rest of your post was a troll against Zero basicly so hope to see actual debate soon. [/B]

First I said ours not you, second you are the one that started the insulting by stating that your leve was higher than mine, while I equated us. Thank you for demonstrating how the west misquote and misunderstand the east and initiate fighting. I was sincere in the example I brought and it was indeed at our level which is how debates in sciforums result in fighting, and please don't hold your breath to any actual debating between us any time soon.

Not the point man, we shouldn't value ourselves over others. Unless of corse it's right winged morons.

second you are the one that started the insulting by stating that your leve was higher than mine, while I equated us.

Well yes because it is, simple. ;)

hint hint...I'm not a man....And you need to have more than a B.S., M.S., and post graduate work in hydraulics, Professional Engineering license, P.E., two kids, successfull marriage, steady work, $300k house, a time share with the Westin Cancun, and others.
Chao nico.