There are many positions on Hell, whether it exits or not, and what goes on in Hell. The bible scriptures quote it as an icky place where people crawl around like worms:


Jesus speaks
Mark 9:

42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

It doesn't sound like a big rock and roll party. To get there all a person has to do is nothing:

Jesus speaks
John 3:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

When a person dies it really doesn't matter if they believe there is a hell or not, the result is the same.

to understand 'hell' on ehas to understand christianiy's absolute dualism--an absolute dualism strongly influenced by Orphism, who originated the idea of eternal suffering
They had dogmatically split Nature from spirit and believed the 'divine spark'/spirit was trappen in human body and of course Nature. Thus we can see they are beliving Nature is source of evil, and enticement

So the clue is this split between Nature and spirit, good and evil...and ll opposites they splice and then deify one side and have the two sides in coflict till one's eventual victory

as for what hell IS. don't know about after death. noone has ever come back to tell. so all we can go on is inferences. For example, have you ever had hallucingogenic experience? and if so, had a 'bummer'? this is where you will experience hellish visions and feelings...of dead bodies, monsters, whirlpools of shit ready to suk you in...hah...you name it

also, even straight, you can suddenlt feel engulfed by negative thoughts, and with them come feelings of death, worring images of suffering you have seen, etc etc

So understanding that, we realize that part of our whole potential includes negativity, as well as positivty, and that these two are not two separate realms, split off and at war with each other, but a continuum of experience, is all

what the patriarchs do is manipulae this reality to suit their purposes for control. so they DIVIDE this continuum. threatening the gullible with all-the-TIME negativity, and all-the-time positivity, which of course is nonesense. there is no such thing as stasis

prepATRIARCHAL PEOPLES KNOW OF AN 'uNDERWORLD' a deep profound plac of ecstatic experience. But patriarchy demonized it into a place--a 'hell' of 'everlasting' punishment. like the carrot and the stick, this horrendous myth has served its purpose

NOW is the time all see right through it for what it is

Is hell for real

No.

By who's authority doest thou speak thou great and mighty snakelord? You don't want a place where evil people like you get punished.

As I said before it really doesn't matter what a person believes about hell. The end result is the same. Denial in someone's mind doesn't make something exist or cease to exist. In the end everyone finds out the answer.

Hell is a place where Hitler, Jack the Ripper, serial killers,devil worshippers, and haters of God (athiests) get to spend their eternity.


http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/fire.gif

it exists to you, so you'll find god there too, he's killed more then all them put together. but I dont think you'll find any atheists, it dont exist to us.

you are right mis-t-high.

I will be with the God you hate and you will not.

When a person dies it really doesn't matter if they believe there is a hell or not, the result is the same. After that one I would think the thread would end at its beginning... but then again what do we know about how the universe functions after we die?...

is hell for real
No.

your one sad individual, woody.http://img2.uploadimages.net/5336006thsense.jpg
he can see you to.

Pavlos,

I see right through your soul, son. You are the little boy and I am the man in your picture.

You love pornography. What kind is it you like? It is a disease from hell. You are hooked on it -- Face the facts.

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/grim_reaper_slashing_sm_nwm.gif


http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/fire.gif

itopal,

Why don't you be honest with yourself? You are in denial about God, that is why you hate him. That is why you are here, so you can find comfort in others that think the same way. Atheists hate God -- that is the real reason they don't believe isn't it?

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/fire.gif

I have no soul, souls are for the delusional, and the man in the picture is dead.

porn oh yes.
you ask what kind, then you must have been watching it for a long time,to know what kind s there are, wow you are hooked, it's a fact.

there is no denial it does not exist what is there to deny, why would we hate something that does not exist, that is just plain stupid.
wow you are truly dum.
there is nothing to believe in, show us a little evidence please.

Proving Existence or Non-Existence.

The existence of a thing can be conclusively proved by producing one single instance of the thing.

To put that another way: -
When the existence of a thing is denied, This can be proven wrong by producing one single instance of the thing said not to exist

The non-existence of a thing can never be conclusively proved because there is always the theoretical assumption that the thing exists but has not been seen yet or it exists in a place that can not be visited. Unless all places in the universe have been visited and are being constantly observed, we can not be absolutely certain.

From this we can say that there are only two possible statements we can make about the existence of a thing:


The thing exists.

It is unknown if the thing exists or not.

It is not possible to prove that a thing "does not exist" without further qualifying criteria.

If a thing does NOT exist it can not leave any evidence of it's non-existence. Only things that DO exist can leave evidence. From this we can derive that conclusive proof can only come from the person that claims that a thing exists. It is nonsensical to demand proof of non-existence.

Pavlos says seeing is believing.

Have you ever seen a radio wave pavlos? How do you know it exists?

Did it start to exist after it was discovered or before?

Yes, I do know about pornography, I wasn't always a Christian. I do not have a problem with it. I am married too.

I know something about the crafts from more than just reading literature. You are no match for demons. The little dead man is the grim reaper, better known as death. He works for satan the chief atheistic God hater.

How come I did not see this thread earlier? Must be one of the funniest I have seen in some time...

Anyway, to the initial post:
The bible scriptures quote it as an icky place where people crawl around like worms:

Now, that does sound like the way many people live their lifes, crawling around like worms. Pathetically and content to crawl in the dirt their god left for them... without a backbone.

...and haters of God (athiests) get to spend their eternity.

That is strange... I always thought satanists and similar morons hate god, whereas atheists do not believe in a god, e.g. God is a non-factor for those who do not believe in the existance of god.

But then there is this point:

Atheists hate God -- that is the real reason they don't believe isn't it?

Funny shit, dude. Why should I hate a dream? Why should I hate something that is apparently not even there? Now that would be a real waste of time.

Dreamwalker,

Dream on. You don't believe God exists because you don't want to believe. You are not looking for God, and that is why you haven't found him. Get a life Dude.

There is no difference between atheism and satanism, they both count God as dead.

Oh, thanks for the advice, but I already have a life, otherwise I would not be able to write this. And I searched for god... where did you find him? And why exactly should I believe?



(I think I should change my name, this stupid way people always use my screen name to make some witty remarks are a bit annoying...)

Dreamwalker,

I found God in my own heart. You will never understand this unless you honestly look for him to.

Yes you have a life, but not for long, because it doesn't belong to you, and that is why we die.

Really? And I always thought you die of incidents, illnesses and decline of organic tissue...too bad. By the way, I think you can only find god in your brain, and there I only found myself.

Don't be so woody about life, it's fun while it last, and I will pay whatever bills I ran up.

By who's authority doest thou speak thou great and mighty snakelord?

By my authority. Or if you prefer: by the authority of god who gave me the right to freedom of speech, freedom of opinion, and the ability to use my brain. Not to mention the need given to me by god to actually have evidence for things before I jump up and start preaching like the lunatics you spend your days with.

Of course if you actually have something of value with which to support belief in the existence of a hell, bring it on. All the mouth in the world does absolutely nothing, and anyone can do it. The question is: When it comes down to the crunch, are you all talk or can you back it up with substance?

You know, I don't see dragons flying through the skies, and no matter where I go and look, there are no signs of dragons. As a result, if you asked me if dragons existed, I would naturally say no. The same is true of any entity that has no evidence pertaining to its existence and any place that has no evidence pertaining to its existence. Not only does it go for hell, but for atlantis, eldorado, and mordor.

So, much like in the last post where I gave you the opportunity, (but was ignored), I hereby give you the chance to prove it or at the very least try to validate it.

You don't want a place where evil people like you get punished.

And how am I evil? Please, do explain.

In the end everyone finds out the answer.

Or not.

Hell is a place where Hitler, Jack the Ripper, serial killers,devil worshippers, and haters of God (athiests) get to spend their eternity.


I'm curious how you put atheists in the same sentence as Hitler, Jack the Ripper, serial killers, and devil worshippers. The reason most likely comes from your ignorance concerning what an atheist is. An atheist is most certainly not a hater of god, considering we don't believe there is such a being. As a result, there is simply nothing to hate. I suggest you spend some time learning these very simple things before making more of a fool of yourself.

Don't be so woody about life, it's fun while it last, and I will pay whatever bills I ran up.

You said it yourself.

Only problem is you leave this world without anything to pay with.

Woody: There are many positions on Hell, whether it exits or not, and what goes on in Hell. The bible scriptures quote it as an icky place where people crawl around like worms:

When a person dies it really doesn't matter if they believe there is a hell or not, the result is the same.
*************
M*W: First of all, Woody, please show the undisputable truth that hell exists by providing scholastic references. If you can do this, then secondly your quoting lengthy scriptures may be of some minor value.

Thirdly, you directly quoted Jesus through the words of Mark and John. Problem here is, Mark was written some 70 years after Jesus was gone and was influenced by Paul's earlier written epistles. Mark never knew Jesus and neither did Paul. How can you prove those were Jesus' actual words? You can't. The old excuse, "the bible tells me so," doesn't hold water on this forum.

Fourthly, your repetitive copying of scripture instead of your own words is preaching, and it's not allowed here.

There is no such place as hell just as there is no such place as heaven.

You said it yourself.

Only problem is you leave this world without anything to pay with.

Oh, so they don't take credit cards?

Well, I think SnakeLord and Medicine Woman said it quite well.

Woody: Hell is a place where Hitler, Jack the Ripper, serial killers,devil worshippers, and haters of God (athiests) get to spend their eternity.
*************
M*W: Again, Woody, we will need to see proof for your statement. Secondly, your church has obviously lied to you. Atheists absolutely don't hate God. How can you hate something that doesn't exist?

Snakelord,

You are in denial.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

You are the fool.

medicine woman,

the same is true of you.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

You have no excuse.

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/fire.gif

Woody: you are right mis-t-high. I will be with the God you hate and you will not.
*************
M*W: LISTEN, PECKER-WOOD, YOU CAN BE WITH WHICHEVER MYTHOLOGICAL GOD YOUR FANTASIES ALLOW, BUT ATHEISTS STILL DO NOT HATE THE FIGMENTS OF YOUR IMAGINATION.

the same is true of you.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

You have no excuse.

That's all you have for an answer? That's pretty weak.

Medicine Gal,

You don't have to shout!

By the way. Mark the disciple and John Mark the apostle are not the same Mark.

Dreamwalker,

That's all you have for an answer? That's pretty weak.

A weak heart is no excuse either.

Woody: Pavlos, I see right through your soul, son. You are the little boy and I am the man in your picture.

You love pornography. What kind is it you like? It is a disease from hell. You are hooked on it -- Face the facts.
*************
M*W: You are one delusional fuck. You're an embarrassment to xianity, but it's idiots like you who make us atheists proud.

Ah, this is getting more and more pointless.... so a little bit more will not hurt.

1. You were asked for proof, all you came up was a pointless psalm... way to go.

2. Weak heart? How am I weak? I do not need a god, I do not fear a god, nor do I fear life and death, and whatever might await after I pass away.
But you, you make a weakness a blessing and submit to a god out of fear, overlaying it with a delusional message of love, while you are just afraid to live your live on your own responsibility. Wow yeah, and if you did not know it, a heart is just a muscle... and mine is quite healthy.

By the way, I am not the one who makes excuses.

You are in denial.

What a surprise that when it comes down to it, (like I said in my last post), you wimp out - instead taking the attempted insult method as if that would somehow make me focus my attention elsewhere than on your failure to take up the apparently very simple challenge I left for you.

As for being in denial, I've already explained it clearly for you, but it seems you are incapable of understanding very simple premises. Tell me Woody, is there an invisible $1000 bill floating in front of your face? The chances are you would say "no", to which I could reel off the blathering you have done on your previous posts. You too would be in denial, and I would be very curious as to your reason for saying no.

Tell me Woody, why would you say no?

But I guess if there is a hell, you'll be joining me. I can only imagine the grimace on your face when you get to the pearly gates, god takes one look at your willy and says; "why are you not circumcised, never read my book?"

You'll probably claim that it wasn't neccessary anymore to which god, true scientist that he is, will say "show me where it says you don't need to be circumcised anymore?".

That's just one example, but at the end of the day, I bet you're breaking more of god's laws than the average atheist.

You are the fool.

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."

Oopsie, you're in big shit now.

Shall I save you a spot next to us evil atheists by the giant barbecue?

That is just too funny for words man.. Lol, I'm really laughing my nuts off. Might I advise you spend some time reading the bible and less time judging others?

In fact, it's so amusing to see a religious lunatic doom himself to hell, that I feel this "burning" desire to point it out a few more times. Here we go:

You are the fool.

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."

You are the fool.

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."

You are the fool.

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."

You are the fool.

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire."

Ah, I feel satisfied now. Wear loose clothing man, it's gonna get hot.

Guess the gif at the bottom of your posts is quite apt.

Woody: itopal, Why don't you be honest with yourself? You are in denial about God, that is why you hate him. That is why you are here, so you can find comfort in others that think the same way. Atheists hate God -- that is the real reason they don't believe isn't it?
*************
M*W: Woody, sciforums is an intelligent community. You just don't fit in.

you said it yourself.

http://img2.uploadimages.net/553371capacity.jpg

OK,

I see I have stirred up the snake nest once again.

By the way medicine Gal, you don't speak for itopal.

Does this forum allow you to put words in someone else's mouth?

Rather rude aren't you?

I must go study for an exam. I can come back, but it sounds like you don't want me to.

You are right, maybe I don't belong here. Studying for my exam is a better use of my time and my mind.

By the way Pavlos,

I like your sign, it belongs on this forum. Have you read your porn today?

John 3

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Pavlos
http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/afcharacter.gif http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Storm-06.gif

Aww... and he did not come up with even one answer. :(

Woody: I found God in my own heart. You will never understand this unless you honestly look for him to.

Yes you have a life, but not for long, because it doesn't belong to you, and that is why we die.
*************
M*W: Woody, I was a dyed-in-the-wool, bible-believing, scorch-the-earth christian for many years. Then I found the truth. Christianity is evil, but you people are too dumb and in denial to see your evil addiction.

I see I have stirred up the snake nest once again.

Oh come now, not at all. It's odd though, I can almost smell the fear coming out of your pores. What gets to me though, is for a religious person you certainly judge a hell of a lot, and don't even have the grace to apologise.

You have gone against the very things jesus told you not to, and while I see no personal insult in being called a fool, you have unwittingly given yourself a nice seat by the fire. In this situation it would probably be wise to pray for forgiveness. That would undoubtedly work out better for you if you had the courage and humility to point out your error here and apologise for it.

Instead, like the typical christian, you run for the hills at the very first sign of trouble. Pure and utter cowardice.

And after all that you have the blatant audacity to call others rude.

You have ignored all questions posed and have solely made it your duty to judge everyone you can, and have shown beyond all reasonable doubt that you are not fit to call yourself a christian. You're a true disgrace to the name.

So after all this time telling people they're doomed to hell, (and apparently enjoying the notion), you might just end up tagging along. However, unlike the sickening attitude that you portray here, I would be absolutely apalled if you were to burn for not being perfect.

All I can say now is unlike your god, my god doesn't ever burn his children. There is a land of joy and happiness for us all. You see, my god is all-loving. He does not judge you at all, because he is bigger and better than that. So, come join me in worship of my god and you'll go to heaven regardless to how many times you say 'fool'.

Have a nice day, (and afterlife if possible).

i agree with woody. atheists are god haters thats why u are in here tryin to tell us there is no god. thats ur motive.

Not an atheist myself (more an agnostic) stuff but could you please explain how atheists are supposed to hate something which in thier eyes doesn't exist?

denial

most of the time people become atheist bcuz of wat has happened in their life. some people start to blame god for their problems. since they believe in god they no he is a higher power and cant do nething bout it. so if they deny that jesus was a human being and god they have nothing to hate and then they dont worry about god nemore. it makes them feel better about themselves. this is with only some people im not sayin all or a big majority. ive seen it happen to people. and if they dont believe in god then wat is their motive to making us non-believers???

stuff057: i agree with woody. atheists are god haters thats why u are in here tryin to tell us there is no god. thats ur motive.
*************
M*W: Let me make it easy for you. You can't hate something that doesn't exist. However, you and woody have proven once again that xians are the delusional fucks we atheists hate.

Woody, you're the most amusing spammer we've had in a while. Since it is too much bother to refute your crap, I'll let a George Carlin quote be my reply to your BS:

Religion: If this [word] offends you, welcome to the world of sane and realistic critical thought. More harm has been done to the collective human psyche by religion than by all the fucking and cocksucking since the dawn of time. By the way, many religious people (including the ordained) fuck and suck each other's cocks all the time.
-- George Carlin

well medicine woman then y are u wasting ur time tryin to make us not believe. and no i dont believe in god bcuz i fear hell. i havent always believed in god but it was the only the rational way for me to find the reason of life.

"By the way, many religious people (including the ordained) fuck and suck each other's cocks all the time." No1 ever said that believers were perfect.

I get this distinct impression that stuff057 is in actuality Woody himself under a new guise. I can't say I have much evidence, but Woody and stuff057 of all people should understand just how irrelevant evidence is.

If that is the case my contempt is growing swiftly. To think that a servant of god could be so cowardly, so quick to judge and ignore the book he claims is the book above all else. To show such flagrant disregard for anyone who doesn't meet his criteria, and to dismiss them as evil, hell bound individuals. To forget the most paramount of jesus' laws: love thy neighbour, and go against it as if he were satan himself.

I am scared for todays children growing up surrounded by these sick depraved people. Those so fast to preach love for all, and the very last to actually listen to it.

As an atheist I do not hate god, because to me there is no god to hate. It is parallel to saying a theist hates leprechauns. There is no animosity, hatred or contempt for any fantasy beings my mind can conjure up. Humans however do not have the luxury of being unseen and unheard. When one has the audacity to happily cast aside his fellow man, to condemn that man to all manner of unforseen pains and evils, to happily walk over anyone who doesn't think exactly like they do, or indeed agree to everything they say, that person has not earnt the right to think himself better than scum.

I detest the very manner by which some will use gods name to hate everyone they encounter and to cause absolute disharmony and intolerance for anyone outside of their collective.

And I resent the notion that this is what I am supposed to be aspiring to achieve. These people actually want and demand that I be like them, that I too stoop into a life of self righteousness and absolute intolerance for everyone else.

And when they try to use Hitler and atheists in the same sentence, it seems more apparent to say Hitler and christians in the same sentence. You're both after the exact same thing, you just don't acknowledge it. While many of us live for the betterment of mankind, the christian lives for the betterment of himself, and himself alone.

He does not care about improving 'life', but about improving his 'afterlife' at the cost of anyone who dares stand in his way. Unrelenting in his abuse of humanity and his lowering the values of mankind, he will go merrily on his way stepping on everyone elses heads just to get there. And while he stands on the street corner shouting "judgement day is coming" to all who walk by, he knows deep in his heart that it doesn't matter if anyone listens, as long as he gets the prize. It is the most selfish, the most self serving ideal in the history of mankind.

I'm unsure exactly why I started this rant, but as if by a miracle it seems I have described hell better than anyone else could muster.

I really hope stuff057 and woody are the same person, but if they arnt then at least we get twice the laughs, maybe if everyone repeats it enough they'll get it, you cannot hate something you dont believe exists, but maybe im in denial and hate blue and green zebras after all :rolleyes:

Oh, this'll be fun. Woody,

By who's authority doest thou speak thou great and mighty snakelord?

Oh no, Woody hath opened a can of Biblical on SnakeLord's ass. Watch out!

And by the way, thou hast spelt "dost" wrong. It's "thou dost", not "thou doest". Learn Elizabethan English.

You don't want a place where evil people like you get punished.

No, we don't believe in a place where evil people get punished. Whether or not ya wanna think so, there's a difference.

As I said before it really doesn't matter what a person believes about hell. The end result is the same.

Yeah, we all end up rotting in the ground . . . or scattered across the ground if ya prefer to be cremated.

Denial in someone's mind doesn't make something exist or cease to exist.

Neither does believing in it.

In the end everyone finds out the answer.

You go ahead and think that.

Hell is a place where Hitler, Jack the Ripper, serial killers,devil worshippers, and haters of God (athiests) get to spend their eternity.

Gandhi is there too. Think about that.

Oh, and how can someone that doesn't believe that God exists hate God? How can ya hate something that isn't there?

You love pornography. What kind is it you like? It is a disease from hell. You are hooked on it -- Face the facts.

Ooh, lovely example of a Straw Man (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm).

You are in denial about God, that is why you hate him.

It's impossible to hate something that one believes doesn't exist.

That is why you are here, so you can find comfort in others that think the same way.

Lookie lookie, another Straw Man (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm).

Atheists hate God -- that is the real reason they don't believe isn't it?

Let me ask you something, Woody, and please answer. Do you believe in leprechauns?

Have you ever seen a radio wave pavlos? How do you know it exists?

Radio waves can be detected with scientific instrunemts. God can't.

The little dead man is the grim reaper, better known as death. He works for satan the chief atheistic God hater.

Assuming Satan exists for a bit . . . He possibly does hate God; however, he also believes in him. After all, he was one of his angels. Remember?

There is no difference between atheism and satanism, they both count God as dead.

Actually, Satanism counts God as dead — I actually dunno about that for sure kuz I'm not familiar with Satanism — but Atheism counts God as never having existed in the first place.

There is a difference. Look in a dictionary sometime.

I found God in my own heart.

Eww, ya have a parasite! Go to the doctor and have that removed, lest ya have a heart attack.

Snakelord,

You are in denial.

Actually, you are.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

You [SnakeLord] are the fool.
medicine woman,

the same is true of you.

Matthew 5:22. ;)

Who's in deep shit? Thou art. :D

Does this forum allow you to put words in someone else's mouth?

Ya mean like you have?

I must go study for an exam.

Yay!

I can come back . . .

. . . Aww.

no were not the same people so more laughs for u. ok u say im the same as hitler but all i am doin is tryin to save u. and plz tell me ur motive for tryin to make me not believe.

Uh oh, there's another little bugger running around. And a new one too. Stuff057,

i agree with woody. atheists are god haters thats why u are in here tryin to tell us there is no god. thats ur motive.

Lordy, another SciForumer that can't spell or capitalize or punctuate for shit. Why can't ya learn how to type?

Read what I and other SciForumers have said to Woody. And let me ask you (not "u") something, and please answer. Do you believe in leprechauns?

What makes you think we have a motive?

. . . if they dont believe in god then wat is their motive to making us non-believers???

wat is UR motive to making us believers???

well medicine woman then y are u wasting ur time tryin to make us not believe.

I'm sorry . . . Was that a question? I honestly can't tell . . . There isn't a question mark to be found. And I can't tell if there's an interrogative pronoun in that sentense, such as "why".

i havent always believed in god but it was the only the rational way for me to find the reason of life.

This is the only rational way ya could think of?! Sad. Please look at this thread.

. . . plz tell me ur motive for tryin to make me not believe.

plz tell me UR motive for tryin to make us believe.

However, you and woody have proven once again that xians are the delusional fucks we atheists hate.

It's wrong to call sciforums an intelligent community...

...They seem to be the same person...

and plz tell me ur motive for tryin to make me not believe.

I haven't tried to make you not believe. You, (Woody), asked a question about whether hell was real or not. I left a very simple one word reply, (no), to which I got condemned to hell by you, (Woody). I didn't try to get you to no longer believe in god or heaven or hell.. I assume you're a grown individual so you can do and believe in whatever you want. I have that same right, and yet when I tried, the very first statement out of your, (Woody's), mouth was: "by who's authority does thou speak?", as if my right to opinion, my right to freedom of speech is non-existant unless I happen to agree with you, (Woody), 100%.

Besides, being the kind of individual I am, I wouldn't even dare attempt to persuade you into my beliefs without a hell of a lot of supporting evidence. This is where you and I differ.

all i am doin is tryin to save u.

By putting people down, by calling them haters, evil people, and affiliating us to Jack the ripper merely because we don't agree with your beliefs? That is some perverse and frankly rather sickening method by which to "save" someone.

Besides, you have absolutely no place to be assuming you are in a position to save anyone, from anything. We could look at it openly and say that it is you who needs to be saved. Saved from the ignorance and intolerance that is taking over your very being, spreading like a cancer throughout the human you once used to be. But is it our place to do that? Is it out place to force our ideals upon you because we see you as lost? Is it really our duty to enforce our beliefs into your life?

Must I spend my life being the victim of those who wish to inflict their ideals upon me without even taking the time to question whether I want these ideals inflicted upon me in the first place? They just assume themselves as the "greater" people and look down upon the rest of us. That is rude.

i really dont care about how im typin. if u can read it why do u care how im typin. u seem to understand everything im sayin. my motive for makin u believe is bcuz thats wat god wants me to do. and the reason i think u have a motive is because a person who is tellin me there is no god shouldnt worry about other people and waste his time.

plz tell me ur motive for tryin to make me not believe.
Personally i couldnt care less what you believe, i cant speak for others however my view is when you decide someone needs 'saving' through conversion and they disagree then you are going to get an arguement.

It's wrong to call sciforums an intelligent community...

With stuff057 and Woody roaming around, I'm inclined to agree with ya.

ok...and good job john madden of stating the obvious. the reason im arguing with u is to save u.

i really dont care about how im typin.

And that's painfully obvious.

if u can read it why do u care how im typin.

I'm sorry . . . Was that a question? Lordy, there's no question mark there, but it so looks like a question! Well, I suppose just this once, I'll assume it is.

I care how you're typing because it's just so much easier to read if I don't have to take the time to think, "Okay . . . 'u' means 'you' . . . 'y' means 'why' . . .". Wouldn't you agree?

u seem to understand everything im sayin.

Barely.

my motive for makin u believe is bcuz thats wat god wants me to do.

Oh, kinda like how the tooth fairy wants you to put yer tooth under yer pillow?

and the reason i think u have a motive is because a person who is tellin me there is no god shouldnt worry about other people and waste his time.

A person who's telling me there is a God shouldn't worry about other people and waste his/her time either.

Btw, ya still haven't answered my question. Do you believe in leprechauns?

"A person who's telling me there is a God shouldn't worry about other people and waste his/her time either." yes i should waste my time because god wants me to show u that he is there. that is why i am wasting my time on u. leprechauns...wat i know about them nah. but if ur such a smart and rational person then y does it take u much effort and time to understand the u=you and y=why? are u happy there is a question mark. do u believe in spirits?

excorcisms do u want to explain them to me?

yes i should waste my time because god wants me to show u that he is there.

And once again, you think the best way of doing that is to call people haters, liken them to Jack the ripper and if you're having a slightly hard time getting through to them, condemn them to hell?

no i never said callin people haters is the best way to do it. but thats the way i see it as. they hate god but dont realize it.

Fascinating thread. From the point of view of a budding anthropologist, anyway. At first glance, it appears to be one big flame-fest, but after really examining the tone and content of the posts it becomes so much more. One can see the superstitions of the believers in the christian cult demonstrate the true threat they feel at atheism.

The threat isn't from the atheists themselves, but the logical arguments that they (here and in other places on the internet, books, other media, etc.) provide that cultists are unable to properly defend. But it isn't this lack of defense that illicits the vehement repsponses from cult followers like woody & stuffy, its that they find themselves questioning their own faiths.

Oh, they'll certainly deny that this occurs, cult followers rarely admit even to themselves that this occurs, yet it is true. There simply is no logical reason for the level of vehemence and beligerence, except to bolster their own egos by being beligerent on a webboard or other similar outlet.

But don't worry woody & stuffy, the questions you are asking within yourselves are valid: is there really a god? If there is, does my cult have it right?

The real thing you have to consider is that there are hundreds of religions all over the world and in nearly every society on the planet. Each of them believes that theirs is the "true faith" and that it is most correct to be a member of that religion. That the christian cult spread like a virus is logical, considering which civilizations of the ancient world (in the West at least) had the dominating technologies. The fact that a majority of the world's populations are either Judeo-Christian or Islamic doesn't mean that the Buddhist isn't right or the Navajo worldview isn't the correct one. Each religion is equally correct (or, conversly, equally incorrect).

yes i should waste my time because god wants me to show u that he is there. that is why i am wasting my time on u.

Ah, so ya agree that ye'r wasting yer time?

leprechauns...wat i know about them nah.

Let me ask you this then: Do you hate leprechauns?

After all, who could hate them? They're short and red-haired and green-eyed and oh so cute. And if ya catch one, it leads ya to its pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and oh isn't that loverly?

but if ur such a smart and rational person then y does it take u much effort and time to understand the u=you and y=why?

It doesn't take much time and effort to understand that. It's just unnecessary time and effort. It's much easier to read something if it's written in properly punctuated, correctly spelt, grammatically correct, clearly written English. Plus, it makes you look smarter, and people can take what you're saying more seriously.

are u happy there is a question mark.

Yes, I'm happy that ya were successful at placing one at the end of a question like ye'r supposed to. Now was that really so hard, typing a question mark? I bet ya could do it again.

do u believe in spirits?

Yay, another question mark! That makes me all warm and fuzzy inside! :)

By "spirit", do you mean "ghost" or "soul"? Or do ya mean something else?

If ya meant "ghost", I accept that there's a possibility that they exist.

If ya meant "soul", I sort of equate it with consciousness, and I believe it's a result of the chemical and electrical reactions that go on in our brain.

If ya meant something else, please explain yer question.

excorcisms do u want to explain them to me?

Um . . . why?

they hate god but dont realize it.

No, we think God doesn't exist, and you confuse that with hating Him but don't realize it.

no i never said callin people haters is the best way to do it. but thats the way i see it as. they hate god but dont realize it.

It is amazing, if not a tad upsetting, to see someone so apparently content to close their eyes and ears to everything around them, to pretend they cannot see or hear the solutions that have been given. This is of course unless it is not pretence, in which case my heart truly weeps.

Luckily I do know of a way to resolve this issue right here, right now. The question is, are you willing to listen this time?

Stuff057: Do you hate the loch ness monster?

Kindly take some time to reflect upon the question and answer as sincerely as possible. It is not a hard question to answer, nor is it a trick question. At the very most it merely provides you with an opportunity to see inside the mind of an atheist. If you are so sincere about wanting to save them, the least you can do is start to understand who it is you're trying to save.

If you cannot answer the question, then perhaps it is worth giving consideration to the possibility that it is you who hates. You hate those who think differently to you.

I await your answer or response.

I'm going to type like this for Athel, but i do agree that i question my faith. I question my faith all the time. I was an atheist once, but when you look at the three dominant religions they all have the same god. That's why I believe it's the right faith, and by ghosts I mean people who have past away. And have gone to the after life.

Will you explain to me what excorcisms are if there is no god?

Will you kindly answer my question?

Perhaps you need an incentive, and as such I shall answer your question first, but in doing so will need to ask some questions in return for your consideration.

Firstly I would ask whether you have ever witnessed an excorcism, (other than in the movies). Without having seen one your beliefs concerning it could be far from the actual truths.

We must also take into account that excorcisms are not exactly christianity specific. Some jungle tribes practice very similar things. For instance, there is a tribe that take some special jungle-drugs, dance around a fire to their gods and then rub trees. In doing so, the person with cancer ends up going into remission.

Would that imply that rain gods exist and that dancing naked around a fire is a viable method with which to save people from death?

We must also take into account accurate statistics concerning failures and successes, as well as detailed analysis of the people involved. Alas there are no statistics, and aside from a few urban legends, there are no witnesses either. When there is a witness, it always seems to be a "friend of a friend", which as we all know, is highly unreliable.

And finally: Not being able to explain the cause of something, is not valid reason to then make one up and assume it as absolute undeniable truth, or indeed to latch on to the nearest sufficient explanation that never requires questioning merely to satisfy your need for answers.

Nobody said life was easy, and trying to find an answer to all of lifes questions in three simple words, is failing on your responsibilities as a human being.

I hope this helped. Now, if you would be so kind, could you answer my question from the last post? Thank you.

Excorcisms are the rituals of some christian cults in which a "demon," or mythological being of evil intent, is removed from the body of a participant/believer.

Its fictional, but people believe in it in the same way Haitians believe in VooDoo, or the Azande believe in poison oracles.

i dont hate the lochness because i think its possible for there to be one. im not saying there isnt a lochness and there is.

Fascinating... why would you think that it is possible for there to exist a monster in the Loch Ness?

excorcisms....theyre not fake.i had one done at my house because i believe there was a demon that got here somehow. i have storys to back this up but im not goin to type them becuz i dont feel like it so u jus have to trust me. o yea in my storys i wasnt the only person to see wat happened there were atleasts 2 other witnesses. since then nothing has happened.

Well there has been other reportings of the same creature in other areas like maryland. it could possibly be from the dinosaur age and survived somehow. we know only around 50% of the creatures that live in water. so it's possible. and the thing with hating god relates to the people i was talkin bout that turn atheists the way i said. look at earlier posts.

i dont hate the lochness because i think its possible for there to be one.

So you're saying that if you didn't believe in one, you'd hate it? Bizarre.

excorcisms....theyre not fake.i had one done at my house because i believe there was a demon that got here somehow. i have storys to back this up but im not goin to type them becuz i dont feel like it so u jus have to trust me. o yea in my storys i wasnt the only person to see wat happened there were atleasts 2 other witnesses. since then nothing has happened.

Perhaps you do not know this yet, but trust is something that must be earnt. I will give you the opportunity to earn my trust, and it doesn't take a lot on your part. Here we go:

Kindly provide me with names of those who performed the excorcism and a general location so I can contact them. Thank you.

I agree, they're very real to the believer... as I said, so is VooDoo and poison oracles to the Haitians and the Azande respectfully. However, that doesn't mean that either of these beliefs genuinely exist. What you witnessed may have been fantastic and beyond the norm, but it was not outside the realm of reality. It just seemed that way to a 'believer."

In otherwords, you're deluded. I hate to be the one to break it to you.

No... I take that back. I do kind of enjoy being the one to break it to you. Shamelessly.

fellowship church in grapevine, tx. how bout we end it here and just say that u cant prove there isnt a god and i cant prove there is one.

and the thing with hating god relates to the people i was talkin bout that turn atheists the way i said. look at earlier posts.

That's actually a lie. Here is what you said:

i agree with woody. atheists are god haters thats why u are in here tryin to tell us there is no god. thats ur motive.

You did not say, or indeed even imply, that the atheists you were referring to were ones that used to be christians. Instead you just lumped us all in the same category and called us haters.

Would you care to apologise for including me in your description? I have been an atheist since birth, and as a result, (in agreement with your last statement), I cannot be considered a 'god hater'. Do you agree?

and im not some kid who goes to church and believe there is a god bcuz of wat priests say. i did it on my own. talk to u peeps later.

fellowship church in grapevine, tx. how bout we end it here and just say that u cant prove there isnt a god and i cant prove there is one.

2450 Hwy 121 N. Grapevine, TX 76051? Telephone number: 972-471-5700?

If that's the one you mean, I shall phone them tomorrow. Is there a specific person I should speak to?

I'm going to type like this for Athel . . .

This is very much appreciated. :) Thank you.

I was an atheist once, but when you look at the three dominant religions they all have the same god. That's why I believe it's the right faith

That doesn't prove anything. The Norse god Oðinn (Odin), the Greek god Zeus, and the Roman god Jupiter are all essentially the same god. They were all dominant religions as well.

The three major religions all have the same god because they are all related to each other. They are only relatively slight variations of the same religion. For example, one of the differences between Christianity and Judaism is that the former has a bigger holy book and says the Messiah has come.

. . . by ghosts I mean people who have past away. And have gone to the after life.

I can accept that there could be an afterlife that people go to when they die.

Will you explain to me what excorcisms are if there is no god?

Exorcisms are rituals performed on a person, place, or thing, in which it is thought an evil spirit dwells, to drive out that spirit.

This isn't necessarily an exclusively Christian practice, if that's what ye'r thinking.

Well there has been other reportings of the same creature in other areas like maryland.

Two points: 1)the Loch Ness Monster was an admitted hoax... the famous photo turned out to be the guy's labrador retriever out for a swim. 2) isn't "the same creature" a bit of an assumption anyway?

it could possibly be from the dinosaur age and survived somehow.

Logical speculation... if it hadn't been an admitted hoax.

we know only around 50% of the creatures that live in water. so it's possible.

Not that I'm agreeing to the "50%" figure, but there is definately a number of unknown species in the world's oceans, rivers, and lakes. But these species are mostly smaller than a guppie. I think we've pretty much seen all of the species that are larger than a john boat, simply becuase of the ecconomics of marine life. The larger they are, the more food they consume, the more likely they are to turn up where people are (fishing as well).

and the thing with hating god relates to the people i was talkin bout that turn atheists the way i said. look at earlier posts.

The point he was trying to make, successfully I might add, is that an a priori assumption that atheists "hate god" is illogical and based only on the fact that atheism runs counter to your own cult dynamics and "hatred" is the only logical way to resolve it and maintain your own superstitions.

But you made the point best in the previous post, you can't hate the Loch Ness monster, because you cannot deny that it might exist.

But as an agnostic atheist, I can tell you that hatred for a god isn't possible since, while I the possibility exists that there is a god or gods, I assume that there is not. Hating your god would mean that I believe that a god exists, and I'm pissed off at him for some injustice or perceived wrong.

If atheists "hate" anybody, its the various believers that demand that they're particular cult have unfair favor in some facet of society or when they attempt to "evangelize" those that already have established and equally valid belief systems.

2450 Hwy 121 N. Grapevine, TX 76051? Telephone number: 972-471-5700?

Hey... that's a local call for me. I could maybe go by and visit, show my Student ID and get some information for an anthropolgy paper at the same time. :)

Medicine Woman said:

M*W: Woody, I was a dyed-in-the-wool, bible-believing, scorch-the-earth christian for many years. Then I found the truth. Christianity is evil, but you people are too dumb and in denial to see your evil addiction.

No you weren't a Christian, medicine woman, you are a habitual liar. You like the power of deceit, and you have it down to an art. It gives you power. I see through it. Your dreams about nature and the earth remind me of someone:

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/medusa_slithering_sm_nwm.gif

Ah welcome back Woody..

Got fed up with being stuff057 did you?

Woody, ye'r back! Ya just missed Wo-- I mean stuff057.

No you weren't medicine woman, you are a habitual liar.

Do you have proof that she never was a Christian, and that she's a habitual liar?

You like the power of deceit, and you have it down to an art. It gives you power. I see through it.

Nice Straw Man (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm).

I insist that you look at the link.

stuff057: Will you explain to me what excorcisms are if there is no god?
*************
M*W: No god is required for people to become obsessed/possessed with something. In fact, the whole idea of a god is a delusion in need of exorcising. Thank the PTB (powers that be) for sciforums and the wonderful work it does in stamping out the erroneous concepts of god and xianity.

I think woody/stuffy has gone back to kindergarten, unfortunately he will be back.

I was writing something in word, when I grabbed the mouse, to put in a letter I'd missed, I accidently pressed the mouse button, and suddenly the screen changed to this, and I saw your avatar woody it's uncanny, now I understand you.http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-ps02.html the other uncanny thing was the word I missed a letter in was delusional.

do you know if this happens again, I am going to have to start believing in your god, not really just joking on that last sentence.

and just take a look at the first few lines of the two discriptions, that's uncannily you too.

"Criterion A of Schizophrenia requires two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):

1. delusions
2. hallucinations
3. disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
4. grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
5. negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition"


"This group of disorders is characterized by the development either of a single delusion or of a set of related delusions which are usually persistent and sometimes lifelong. The delusions are highly variable in content. Often they are persecutory, hypochondriacal, or grandiose, but they may be concerned with litigation or jealousy, or express a conviction that the individual's body is misshapen, or that others think that he or she smells or is homosexual. "these are all things you've done or said.
weird !.

stuff057: excorcisms....theyre not fake.i had one done at my house because i believe there was a demon that got here somehow. i have storys to back this up but im not goin to type them becuz i dont feel like it so u jus have to trust me. o yea in my storys i wasnt the only person to see wat happened there were atleasts 2 other witnesses. since then nothing has happened.
*************
M*W: I believe you. Exorcisms are real. Delusions are very real in the minds where they manifest. Why do you think the demon came to your house? Did you receive any kind of message from the demon? Sometimes angry angels of light can be mistaken for demons, and they can also be exorcised but shouldn't be messed with for fear of bad spiritual repercussions. Further, the only clergy qualified to exorcise a demon is a Catholic Jesuit priest. I assure you, if you did not have a Catholic Jesuit priest to do the exorcising, you are still under the control of this demon. Demons can live within families for years and years without making an obvious presence. Then one day, usually when there is a pubescent girl in the home, the demon appears. I am hoping that you don't have a young daughter in your home. You may have to send her away to a convent to rid your house of the demon. Most likely, this demon has been with your family for years but has only recently started to do his work. I urge you to contact your local Catholic Dioscese to find the nearest Jesuit priest to immediately clean and purify your house and everyone in it once and for all. When there is one demon there, you can rest assured he has his legions with him. I wish you peace.

Woody: No you weren't a Christian, medicine woman, you are a habitual liar. You like the power of deceit, and you have it down to an art. It gives you power. I see through it. Your dreams about nature and the earth remind me of someone:

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/medusa_slithering_sm_nwm.gif
*************
M*W: So you believe you have been given the power to judge others? How can you be so sure I wasn't actually a xian? I've got papers to prove it: my baptismal certificate, my photo with Pope John Paul II in The Vatican during his first ever audience as Pope, my confirmation certificate, my certificate to teach catechism... what more could you possibly want? Bottom line, I used to believe that Jesus died for my sins until I found out otherwise and fought the idea for years. BTW, to associate me with a serpent is probably the highest honor I could receive. You need to do some reading into the symbolism of the serpent. The serpent is a wise woman, a healer, total feminine spirit. The serpent is called HWWH. Eve is called HWWH. The feminine spirit is called HWWH. Now, just how close is that to YHWH? Get back to the forum after you've done some serious reading.

Hell is a place where Hitler, Jack the Ripper, serial killers,devil worshippers, and haters of God (athiests) get to spend their eternity.



I am an atheist. Not a satanist, but an atheist... without god.
atheism is the lack of belief in god, or gods, devil or demons. Having crawled up from the primordial ooze, my progenitors long ago decided that to allow myths and crutches into their world would weaken the mind, bend the spine, and empty the pockets. So, for the record, I do not hate any mythic god, I do not fear any mythic god, I do not laugh at any mythic god; it is not a consideration, as the god-concept is not a consideration.
I have, however, been known to laugh at those that would follow a myth or a fantasy, who allow themselves to be subjugated by a shadow, a book, or a church; and willingly surrender their minds to a self-styled prophet or a illusion.
So if you're of a superstitious or sanctimonious bent, don't blame me if you don't like whats being said. It's not scary, it is the way I choose to live. So practice your self-determination and admit to yourself that if you disagree, you have no recourse... There are plenty of places on the Web that will not challenge your beliefs, prod you to question your intellectual shackles, or at least make you laugh. So stop deluding yourself and go find someplace comfortable and safe, If true happiness can only be achieved through a state of delusion, you're going down the right path.

Woody doesn't need lessons in disdain, derision, hatred and bitterness from us atheists. He needs lessons in love and compassion from Jesus people like Lori_7 and Jenyar.

Just my humble.

Snake er, I mean medicine woman.

I figured you'd like the post of your god. Medusa is an interesting study, though mythological. You are like her character. Read up on it.

you said

M*W: So you believe you have been given the power to judge others? How can you be so sure I wasn't actually a xian? I've got papers to prove it: my baptismal certificate, my photo with Pope John Paul II in The Vatican during his first ever audience as Pope, my confirmation certificate, my certificate to teach catechism... what more could you possibly want? Bottom line, I used to believe that Jesus died for my sins until I found out otherwise and fought the idea for years. BTW, to associate me with a serpent is probably the highest honor I could receive. You need to do some reading into the symbolism of the serpent. The serpent is a wise woman, a healer, total feminine spirit. The serpent is called HWWH. Eve is called HWWH. The feminine spirit is called HWWH. Now, just how close is that to YHWH? Get back to the forum after you've done some serious reading.

The pope is not my father.

The popes presided over the grand inquisition, where many believers and nonbelievers alike were put to death to seize their property. Their methods of torturing a confession out of someone go down in history as one of the most brutal: pouring molten lead down someone's ear canal, roasting their feet over a fire. All this was done with the excuse of "blasphemy."

You joined the harlot church, and I do not blame you for leaving. I believe there will be some catholics in heaven, but you chose the worst of the lot.

Just in case Snakeman is reading this post:

I do not take it lightly in calling someone a fool according to scripture. The laws you mentioned were written for the lawless, not for believers. You were the first to start the "greater fool" discussion.

In conclusion, why do atheists even bother to come to a religion forum, when it's all make believe to them? And if anyone even dares to disagree then gang up and roast them.

By the way I don't know who that other poor person was that tried to express an opinion, but I am all too familiar with the response.

Pavlos, In your dimension I can understand why you think I am insane. My sister used to think the same about me when she was an agnostic. After many years of prayer for her by me, she became a christian, and I thank God. Many people believe there is a hell, does that make them all insane? And tell me Pavlos, what would you do if you really believed there is a hell like I believe? Would you sit quitely and say nothing? Yes, I am eccentric, but I am also highly analytical, which requires rational thinking. You have not lived my life. So before you size up your profile, just remember that I have a wife to whom I have always been faithful, an 8 year old daughter, we go to church, I obey the law, I don't smoke, drink or do drugs, I don't read porn, I live a decent, moral life, and I have been a christian for 23 years -- I am no christian come lately. Christ has made a huge difference in my life, before I met Him -- I was the opposite of what I just described. Which Woody do you prefer?

Skinwalker -- Ever heard of an atheistic satanist? Sounds like atheists have a lot in common with them. Why don't you tell an athiestic satanist he's full of crap. They are a cult too, take a look for yourself.

http://www.x-ville.8k.com/satanism.html

Keep telling yourself there is no such place as Hell (Sheol) when you slip into eternity. Everyone is just dead alright. Satan is waiting for all infidels there and he is one hungry bastard. You don't have to go there. Please don't.

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/athiest_homecoming.gif

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Explode-01.gif http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Demon-02.gif http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Explode-01.gif


http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Skeleton-01.gifhttp://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Skeleton-03.gifhttp://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Skeleton-04.gif http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Skeleton-01.gifhttp://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Skeleton-03.gifhttp://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Skeleton-04.gif http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/Skeleton-01.gif
http://www.angelfire.com/folk/primecuts/fire.gif

In conclusion, why do atheists even bother to come to a religion forum,

If they're at all like me, they're interested in the anthropological aspects of religion. For me, examining the christian cult is a bit like watching gorillas in the mist for Dian Fossey... fascinating stuff!

Ever heard of an atheistic satanist? Sounds like athiests have a lot in common with them.

A logically unsound concept, since accepting the existance of Satan would imply that one accepts the existance of the god that created him. You should really re-think that, since it is precisely the type of thing that a person of limited intellect and critical thinking ability might consider. I don't think that describes you, does it?

Pavlos, In your dimension I can understand why you think I am insane. My sister used to think the same about me when she was an agnostic. After many years of prayer for her by me, she became a christian, and I thank God. Many people believe there is a hell, does that make them all insane? And tell me Pavlos, what would you do if you really believed there is a hell like I believe? Would you sit quitely and say nothing? Yes, I am eccentric, but I am also highly analytical, which requires rational thinking. You have not lived my life. So before you size up your profile, just remember that I have a wife to whom I have always been faithful, an 8 year old daughter, we go to church, I obey the law, I don't smoke, drink or do drugs, I don't read porn, I live a decent, moral life, and I have been a christian for 23 years -- I am no christian come lately. Christ has made a huge difference in my life, before I met Him -- I was the opposite of what I just described. Which Woody do you prefer?
well you did ask, so here goes in my opinion it's impossible to be analytical and religious, it's an oxymoron.
anybody who believes in a sky daddy, and neverneverland, who cowers in fear of nothing, is delusional,(delusion: A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence) the actor peter o'toole once said "I prayed for 20 years, until I realized I was talking to myself."
I am please you are happy with your life, I am happy with mine.
I did once believe in heaven and hell, but I've grown up since and put away childish things.
if something is wrong, and a billion people believe it's right, it's still wrong.
we size each other by what we write, and sometimes wrongly as you are doing with your mixed up believe about atheists. after all you have been told, by many members that atheist dont believe in god/gods devils or demons heaven or hell. so cant be satanist can they or god haters, which only goes to prove your acting crazy.
I don't smoke, drink or do drugs, I don't read/watch porn,( thats not to say I not a normal guy ) I live a highly moral life, but I not a xian, there is nodeity required.
I feel I have much more respect for life, then any xian, I believe this is the only one we get, I just hope one day, you xians will come to know this, and not continue to kill in the name of you god,therefore not depriving, anybody of there one and only chance of life.

you ask who I would prefer, well you can be xian who debates religion and religious concepts on this forum, or the xian who preaches, or the old you, I would prefer the xian that debates please.

Ask yourself whether the dream of Heaven and Greatness
should be waiting for us in the grave, or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth,-Ayn Rand

Just in case Snakeman is reading this post:

I must admit, it's truly a marvellous thing. You have this uncanny ability to change someones internet nick as if you're making some kind of important statement. What that statement might be exactly is beyond my grasp, and while the general activity would usually signify some attempt at derision or insult, in this instance it has most certainly fallen flat on it's face.

If at all possible though, I would ask if you could dispense with the fun and games and apply a little maturity. The same would go for your wonderful animated gifs, which while suited to pre-teen websites, don't quite fit on a forum where adult discussion is the main focus.

The laws you mentioned were written for the lawless, not for believers.

This could turn out to be a rather convenient escape clause if it wasn't quite so clearly ludicrous. You and I are both aware of this, and while it might aid you to make light of your mistake by lying about it to me, what is the benefit of lying to yourself, because that is afterall who you are lying to. You don't need to make excuses to me, I'm a complete stranger to you, but if you cannot be honest to yourself at the very least, you should start to question why.

A simple: 'Yes, I have done something I should not', or 'my apologies, I'm not perfect', would have come across as a lot more honest and the issue would have been finished right there. It is however normal for someone who has dug a small hole to proceed in digging a larger one.

Let me know if you truly believe the quote you have left and we can discuss it further. Think about it before you answer though, and remember that the hole doesn't lead anywhere but down.

You were the first to start the "greater fool" discussion.

I apologise for my errors.

In conclusion, why do atheists even bother to come to a religion forum, when it's all make believe to them?

The reasons will differ from person to person, and very often the starting reasons are to ask some simple questions about doubts that person might have concerning one of a gazillion beliefs. Generally those questions never get answered.

Overall you'll probably find this is more of a lack-of-religion forum, (being mainly atheist/agnostic). Of course, we do have great tolerance for people of all beliefs, but retain the right to question them. The same cannot be said in reverse. I cannot even count the amount of sites that have refused me access based solely on my internet nickname. It seems the word 'snake' is a bit of a no-no with the religiously minded. That's not to mention the amount of religious sites that ban anyone who doesn't have 'I love jesus' as his forum sig. Christians are not a very tolerant bunch of people, which is quite odd given the words of jesus.

As for me, I simply came here to invite you all to my evolution service next Sunday.

And if anyone even dares to disagree then gang up and roast them.

That does happen, but generally because you ask for it. When you make ludicrous statements and fail on all counts to answer any questions posed to you, it can irritate people. This can escalate further when the person being asked a question changes forum account to escape it, changes back to escape questions posed to his alter ego, makes groundless claims without being able to back them up, and cannot manage a sorry when he does make mistakes, (and yes, we all make mistakes in life - it's all about how we handle things after the mistake has been made).

Further to which, everyone has the right to opinion, and is entitled to give it here. As a result you will see many people making posts. It isn't "ganging up", but simply everyone excercising their right to freedom of speech.

It's most likely you will ignore all of this post and revert back to your method of posting animated gifs, but I sincerely hope you can move beyond that and gain something of value from what I have written. That is upto you.

Dear SnakeLord,

"SnakeLord" is not your real name. "Woody" is my real name, and it is the only name I use. With all due respect you are not "Lord", and hopefully you are not a "snake", but that is the name you chose for yourself. I do not create straw men. I can appreciate your attempt at reconciliation. I do not hold grudges. One of the things I don't like is when people in addition to yourself, write off the men in the bible as just "superstitious simpleton's" in your words, as though you know more than them. You don't, I don't, and nobody else does. Faith is a matter of the heart, not academic knowledge.

Hell is an offensive subject to start with. I believe it exists and I don't want anyone to go there. My feeble attempt to present it in pictures is the best way I know of when words don't work. The subject steps all over sensitivities, and I don't see how that can be avoided.

I am not perfect, I am not better than you, only I am forgiven of my sins which are indeed many.

As I said before faith is a matter of the heart, not intellect.

I quote the bible on this subject:

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

A "God" is anything you put in place of the creator for your belief system -- wealth, your own abilities, some other God, you name it. In the end they all pass away. God knew man would come up with evolution, and look at what the result is or can be. Anything goes with evolution, there is no bottom to which a man can descend without a moral boundary. Who decides what that boundary is on the eternal scale, ourselves being the most biased source?

The evidence of a God you are looking for stands right in front of you -- the universe speaks for itself. The more you learn about it the less you find out you know about it. This is because the creator you don't believe in is infinitely intelligent, and he made it by design.

He made the universe so anyone can look at it and decide for himself. Knowledge of God comes from the heart, not from man's limited intellect.

Woody I know one thing from my time as a christian, you are not bound for heaven.

Woody:you seem like a nice person, someone I can relate to, will you send all your money to me, oh and have you got a kjb for me to borrow, I will post up an address later, it must be all your money as I need it ok, thanks

jeeez, what a load of goody woody two shoes 'dont drink, dont smoke, dont look at porn'......tempted to ask 'so what DO you do then'? hope the reply is SEX....?

as for your hell pics Woody. they made me larf. i mean ...what with the skeletons. to move a skeleton it needs muscle. it dont make sense skeletons without muscle. so they are not scary, but ludicrous, and the devil was over the top

why not show an image of a nazi cooncentration camp. now that Is hell

Hell DOEs exist. when you are down doesn't your mind become sensitively negative, and you think of sad things?
right, well when you are hallucinogized, then those sad feeligns become images. so for example, you can start seeing images of suffering, like concentration camp victims......all forms of suffering. THAt is hell

you ALSO can have jyous ecstatic feeings, and those images are like heaven. so the potentia for positive and negative and an included middle abound

as i've said, what the patriarchs do is S E P AR A T E the positive and negative energies. they ABSRACT them, and then dogmatize the belief that you can have one without the other, and in the Christian case the favoured abstraction is the [positive, isn't it. the 'City of God' with all-the-time-light, and streets paved with gold, bla bla.al;l positive goody goody ness, no naszty shadows or nasty sex, and DEFO no porno, oh me goodness know. and no dog turds, and no bad smells, and i suspect no ones even farts already

whereas you hell is shit smelling, and all the time dark, and....get the picture

so, to summarize then. YEs there is the potential for hellish and heavenly experience, but is part of a dynamic contiuum. REAL lifedeath is this continuum, NOT stasis as devised by the split-minded patrarchal beliefs

Snake er, I mean medicine woman.

I figured you'd like the post of your god. Medusa is an interesting study, though mythological. You are like her character. Read up on it.

you said



The pope is not my father.

The popes presided over the grand inquisition, where many believers and nonbelievers alike were put to death to seize their property. Their methods of torturing a confession out of someone go down in history as one of the most brutal: pouring molten lead down someone's ear canal, roasting their feet over a fire. All this was done with the excuse of "blasphemy."

You joined the harlot church, and I do not blame you for leaving. I believe there will be some catholics in heaven, but you chose the worst of the lot.
I'm appalled by this, not because I'm a former Catholic but because I'm a human being. The maintaining of 17th Century hatred and revulsion against Catholics in this day and age is not just wrong and misguided, it is as deeply abhorrent as anti-Semitism or any kind of race hatred. But it does give us further guidance into the kind of Fundamentalist church you appear to have thrown your lot in with. Woody, Christianity should be a religion of love, not hatred, of tolerance, not bigotry.
Just in case Snakeman is reading this post:

I do not take it lightly in calling someone a fool according to scripture. The laws you mentioned were written for the lawless, not for believers. You were the first to start the "greater fool" discussion.

In conclusion, why do atheists even bother to come to a religion forum, when it's all make believe to them? And if anyone even dares to disagree then gang up and roast them.Many of us are interested in religion even though we don't espouse it. As to roasting, the words "pot" and "kettle" are whirling round my mind at the moment - don't be offensive in your posts and some people (I won't say all) will treat you with courtesy.

By the way I don't know who that other poor person was that tried to express an opinion, but I am all too familiar with the response. Was that me, by any chance? :)

Pavlos, In your dimension I can understand why you think I am insane. My sister used to think the same about me when she was an agnostic. After many years of prayer for her by me, she became a christian, and I thank God. Many people believe there is a hell, does that make them all insane? Nobody's calling you insane because you believe in Hell and God and the Devil. They are calling you insane because over and above your religious beliefs you demonstrate serious irrationality. But I'm not condoning the kind of posts you've attracted which makes you respond this way. From my point of view it sounds like your sister has been brainwashed into accepting your dangerously irrational world view, which makes me sad - but I accept that I could be wrong about that.

And tell me Pavlos, what would you do if you really believed there is a hell like I believe? Would you sit quitely and say nothing? Yes, I am eccentric, but I am also highly analytical, which requires rational thinking. You have not lived my life. So before you size up your profile, just remember that I have a wife to whom I have always been faithful, an 8 year old daughter, we go to church, I obey the law, I don't smoke, drink or do drugs, I don't read porn, I live a decent, moral life, and I have been a christian for 23 years -- I am no christian come lately. Christ has made a huge difference in my life, before I met Him -- I was the opposite of what I just described. Which Woody do you prefer?I think we'd all prefer a Woody who wasn't hypocritically living a "real" life of love and fulfillment and lawabiding while at the same time coming online and demonstrating hatred and bitterness. How do you square your great life with your loving wife and daughter with your statement that you couldn't wait for this stinking life to be over?

Skinwalker -- Ever heard of an atheistic satanist? Sounds like atheists have a lot in common with them. Why don't you tell an athiestic satanist he's full of crap. They are a cult too, take a look for yourself.

http://www.x-ville.8k.com/satanism.htmlWhoever created that site doesn't know what he's talking about. And you've made a logical error - "All satanists are atheists" does not mean that "all atheists are satanists". His satanic cult may be "atheistic" in some narrow technical sense in that they don't literally believe in the Satan their cult is named after, but I think that all the atheists here would reject any kind of cultic activity as being either irrational or as an excuse to behave in immoral ways that we don't find particularly attractive.

Keep telling yourself there is no such place as Hell (Sheol) when you slip into eternity. Everyone is just dead alright. Satan is waiting for all infidels there and he is one hungry bastard. You don't have to go there. Please don't.You still don't get the concept of not believing - if I don't believe in hell, then your statement that continuing not to believe in it will lead me straight there is meaningless. Many Christians are so because they believe in the life eternal with Christ. Conversely they find it hard to square a supposedly all-loving and all-merciful Creator with eternal punishment in Hell for all those people whose only crime is not believing in Jesus (ie the majority of the world's population throughout all history). So, taking their cue from "the wages of sin is death", isn't it easier to say "You will die, you will cease to exist" - which is what we believe anyway, rather than threaten us with a concept that many convinced Christians find profoundly blasphemous against God Himself.

Please try to accept other people's nonbelief and express your own faith in less aggressive and irrational terms and perhaps we'll all get along better. We're here to discuss religious belief - we're not here to be preached at.

as for your hell pics Woody. they made me larf. i mean ...what with the skeletons. to move a skeleton it needs muscle. it dont make sense skeletons without muscle. so they are not scary, but ludicrous, and the devil was over the top

There are lots of things that move without having "muscles".

why not show an image of a nazi cooncentration camp. now that Is hell

You're right...

Hello Woody stiring thing up are we LOL

I see you have medicine woman figured out.. new age, lucifer serving anti-Christ.

One thing though woody I must tell you that your view of Hell is, well is catholic... :eek: please don't hit me...

Ummm satan is not in the lake of fire yet and he will just be another one of the suffering when he is cast into the lake of fire at the final judgement.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

imagine breastrokin with satan.......
might be fun!

IF I believed in abrahams god then yes I absolutely would hate him.
I feel satan is less evil.
Satan merely suggests we don't betray our human instincts. God is the wierd and creepy one.
I'd be inclined to believe the bible was anti-earth propoganda if I believed in god, and that god didn't actually invent the earth but rather is claiming to have in order to lead the people down a deadly trail in the ultimate cosmic conspiracy against nature.
Satan is merely a voice of reason that has been villainised in order to make being evil (like jesus) seem all the more reasonable.
Even the atheists in this thread follow the evil influence of jesus and god, and generally disparrage satan and the earth. Look at how much people donated to tsunami victims. These donations were jesus influenced and anti-earth, and I bet most money was donated by atheists.

I think satan and the earth are the good guys, god and jesus are bad guys. The bad guys are just winning at this stage in history. Earth is a long story and hopefully the good guys will prevail in the end.

I think satan and the earth are the good guys, god and jesus are bad guys. The bad guys are just winning at this stage in history. Earth is a long story and hopefully the good guys will prevail in the end.

What bad has Jesus ever done?

What bad has Jesus ever done?

well, yorda, that quesy says it all

let me rephase it..."what bad has the mythical character of Jesus ever done?"

the myth presumes a human can be all-good. 'Jesus' was apparently not even conceived like the rest of us riff raff MFs begotten in the sweaty loins of lustful lusty lustmakin...oh nooooo. And then when he gorws up, do we hear of any sheenanegins, even a fumble behind the old stables....? no.

actually, even though i understand it as myth. i DO like the bit where J hangs out with the outcastes of society--hopefully NOT preachin--and puts down hypocrites

but you see THE main no no of the Jesus myth in comparison withe more ancinet pagan myths from where much of the Jesus myths' motifs werer appropriated, is that he was made to be SO not-human. SO sexless, so without sin. thus the christians had to create the scapegoat of the Devil. Jesus' denied shadow or twin!

well you did ask yorda.
“Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. Matthew 10:21
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20
Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them.” Matthew 13:10-15

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell. Mark4:11-12
He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life Matthew 19:29jesus say no family, you must leave them to follow him.

Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9

Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25
Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13
Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13

Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves.

duendy

I don't think the "mythological character of Jesus" has done anything evil. You believe religions and Gods are fantasies because you're so proud of yourself. Humans are able to be all-good, even if humans today are very far away from perfection. But once there lived humans on earth who were greater than the humans we see today.

fahrenheit 451

How sad that you don't understand God. Appearances can be illusions. One's actions don't always reveal one's true intentions. God has a caring heart.

Can we see some evidence please yorda, thank you.

Read some religious scripts, know more about yourself, work hard, don't give up, wait, and it will be given to you. How can you ask Me to provide evidence for You? Find it yourself, you don't believe me anyway.

duendy

I don't think the "mythological character of Jesus" has done anything evil.

d__ i know you dont yorda. did you read the quotes from the poster abover? that's GOOD?

You believe religions and Gods are fantasies because you're so proud of yourself.

d__i just try and help myself and people see through the false. i am not anti-deepness, anti-spirituality. i am anti-bullshite. when people are made to believe they can become a cone-sided thing, like 'perfect'. they just haven't thought it through enough. NOTHING can be perfect. that's the whole beautifful living and ying meaning. it's a continuum. if i say it is perfect and imperfect that is not it, cause i am suing terms that have been abstracted, like 'perfect' and 'imperfect'. these two terms are abstracts. they dont exist in reality. reality is something else entirely. it is a living process. a WONDER

Humans are able to be all-good, even if humans today are very far away from perfection.

d___ plese explain how a human can be all-good. without mentioning your idol, Jesus...how do you mean all-good?

But once there lived humans on earth who were greater than the humans we see today.

d__yes, so you believe cause you have invested all your trust in a book full of words words words...

fahrenheit 451

How sad that you don't understand God. Appearances can be illusions. One's actions don't always reveal one's true intentions. God has a caring heart.

Of course there is a DEEP sensitivity. it is incredibly deep, and intelligent. Nature is intelligent. But when one posits myths about all-good is when this sensitivity goes outta the wondow. life is much more complex than that

"SnakeLord" is not your real name.

And knowing this to be the case, I wonder why it seemingly causes so much distress for you. You can gain the title of 'lord' quite easily these days, (you can buy lordships over the internet), but you seem to regard the title as something intentional against your god, which it can't be, because I don't believe in him/her/it.

One of the things I don't like is when people in addition to yourself, write off the men in the bible as just "superstitious simpleton's" in your words

Although those are not my words, they are reasonably sufficient. I would be interested to know though, how would you regard the writers of other religious texts, the writers of the Enuma Elish for example?

as though you know more than them. You don't, I don't, and nobody else does.

This is simply wrong. We do know more than them. While we should look back and be proud of those that came before us for overcoming all the extra struggles they had in life, they didn't know all that much when it came to life and the world. In general we do respect them. Look at all the history man has gathered and keeps: the declaration of independance, the magna carta, the novels of Mark Twain. All these people came before us, and the one clear constant is that as time progresses, people know more.

The problem arises when someone is drawn into fanaticism, and regards every word of some old writing as an undeniable truth, which is naive and extremely dangerous.

Faith is a matter of the heart, not academic knowledge.

The 'heart' is irrelevant here, and your sentence would be more accurate written as such: faith is a matter of lack of knowledge.

Hell is an offensive subject to start with.

Seemingly only to you, because from what I can gather, the majority here don't believe in it.

I believe it exists and I don't want anyone to go there.

Perhaps you should talk to the boss about it then. Perhaps your prayers at night should be about not sending the overwhelming majority of humanity to hell. I know that when you sit down and think about it, you wouldn't want to do that. You would shudder at the thought of sharing your heaven with the unbelievers and bad doers of the world. When it really comes down to it, you do want people to go there. Your entire sentence is false, and not one that truly lies in your.. "heart".

Perhaps that is the ultimate test of humanity. Do you care enough about your fellow humans, regardless to their ills, to pray god to save them, or will you sit by and happily watch them burn?

Perhaps your god is just sitting there waiting for you to care enough about humanity that you will pray to him to save them, just like Abraham did when he spoke to god about Sodom.

Will you try?

My feeble attempt to present it in pictures is the best way I know of when words don't work.

What your pictures show is that you are almost positively gleaming at the concept of the majority of your kind suffering for all eternity. It seems to stir alive something deep and dark within your mind that wants us to burn.

I am not perfect, I am not better than you, only I am forgiven of my sins which are indeed many.

Religions very own get out of jail free card. Steal a car, kill a man and they can't touch you for it.

It is such an overwhelmingly cowardly notion it brings a shudder to my spine. When I do something wrong I deal with it personally, and resolve it to the best of my human ability. That is how a man gets through it. Men do not rely on scapegoats.

As I said before faith is a matter of the heart, not intellect.

Well you are right in saying that intellect plays absolutely no part in it. These are all clues and signs to the problems with it, and yet you say it as if it's a good thing. That is truly worrying.

I quote the bible on this subject:

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And I will quote Jefferson.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government and to provide new guards for their future security.

Spamming biblical quotes at me is as useless as me spamming this to you. While it's an interesting look into the words people wrote a long time ago, it serves no other purpose than that. Especially when it concerns a being that I don't actually believe in. You might aswell quote from the Chronicles of Narnia.

The evidence of a God you are looking for stands right in front of you

The evidence of a leprechaun you are looking for stands right in front of you.

We can both play that game.

Knowledge of God comes from the heart, not from man's limited intellect.

So in other words: It is that limited intellect that makes one find faith. I agree with you completely.

ex-christians are as bad as ex-atheists and ex-smokers in their vitriolic reactions to their former loyalties

Woody,
If God created life, then death was created in that same instant.


If you want to be precise about it, hell is the name for an ancient Judean garbage pit. In that sense, it was real, and not a place I'd like to hang out.

The biblical hell might be a ok, according to Dante, at least if you were a good person, but just don't accept God (or Jesus? ...how does that go?). Ghandi would be there, along with Lao Tzu, Buddha, Aristotle, Plato, Galileo, Darwin, all the great non-and-other-theistic thinkers of all time.

What's so great about heaven? You get to sit on a cloud with a bunch of other do-gooders and sing his praises- oh, joy.

duendy

d__ i know you dont yorda. did you read the quotes from the poster abover? that's GOOD?

Yeah, I didn't see anything evil or wrong there. Those quotes are just a little misunderstood.

NOTHING can be perfect. that's the whole beautifful living and ying meaning. it's a continuum.

Well, I'm not sure if I've ever seen anything imperfect in this world... It's interresting that you say that "nothing" is perfect, because if something is perfect, it's "nothingness". Things are imperfect if we look at them from a personal, limited, viewpoint. I think that if you've ever loved someone, you've experienced perfection.

d___ plese explain how a human can be all-good. without mentioning your idol, Jesus...how do you mean all-good?

You're all-good if you never do anything evil. Like the trees and animals.

d__yes, so you believe cause you have invested all your trust in a book full of words words words...

No, I don't believe in everything the religions say, I only believe what sounds nice and true for me. Actually I've only read a few pages in the Bible.

life is much more complex than that

I think life is very simple, but it can be very complex too, for some people.

You're all-good if you never do anything evil. Like the trees and animals.

So... it is ok when I act like a parasite? Or fight with someone over his place/food/status and kill him in the process. It is also allowed to have sex with whomever I want, and just like some plants I can grow on other beings sucking them dry... what a great set of morals that would make.

If I had to spend heaven with the likes of James Dobson, Falwell, and Ann Colter, I'd end up in hell anyway for murdering their souls, might as well save a trip and just go there directly.

Thank you Yorda, it's a blessing to see someone has a heart in this place.

Anyone that is appaled with my statement about roman catholic church being a harlot should read about the grand inquisition:
Roman Catholic Inquisition (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=grand+inquisition&sm=Yahoo%21+Search&toggle=1&ei=UTF-8&pstart=1&fr=FP-tab-web-t&b=11)

It turns my stomach, and the child molesters in the catholic ministry still turn my stomach. We see who the catholic church looks out for -- their own hide. The grand inquisition finally ended in 1962. Pope Paul finally forgave Galileo for having a science theory, though he was incarcerated until he died. A lot of good that does him now!

Snakelord,

You just breezed right through my post and stated your opinion, and here we go again on the dumber than thou trail. I say the universe is ev