View Full Version : Is God omnipotent ?
How do we mix the concept of an omnipotent God who loves us on one side with the existence of misery ?
A possible argumentation is that God is powerfull, he created every living thing and everything else, but he is still limited, he can't prevent bad things from happening all over his huge universe that he made.
But does a limited God fit our definition of God ? Can we accept that God has his mistakes ? This makes him look a lot more like us or like the Greek Gods whose bickering and fighting was the cause for all the misery on earth.
If it has it's limits then it must be subject to rules, who created those rules ? Since we don't believe in anything higher than God he must have created them himselve but this means before that he was truly omnipotent. But if he was omnipotent then he must still be it because he is limitless in time as in space (by definition of omnipotent). This contradiction reders our premise that god is limited false so God knows no bounds.
So if God is omnipotent he must inflict pain and misery while loving us at the same time because nothing can happen or can exist without his omnipotent conscent.
He works indeed in mysterious ways...
05-25-99, 03:57 PM
If that's your reason to justify pain and suffering upon the earth then you are as ignorant as your religion. Tell me this, what will your omnipotent god do to you when you die?
05-25-99, 04:01 PM
Oops! Almost forgot to answer your question. God does not exist so therefore it can not be omnipotent, simple really when you take time out to think about it.
HELLO, HELLO, IS ANYONE HOME??? GOD DIDN'T CREATE THIS MISERY, WE DID. WE DID, AND WE DID IT ALL BY OURSELVES (ok, with a little nudge from Satan). You're not aware of the concept of free will? You want to somehow blame God for the mess that we've done? HA! Nice try, but your ego is getting in the way of your view. God doesn't FORCE anything, we do. Would you love Him more if He forced you to?
tell me..how does free will and predestination go hand in hand?????
I don't see any real reply to my mail here !
I see Lori getting upset, I see generalhurrss simply dismissing the discussion as being irrelevant since god doesn't exist, only Flash kind of asks the same question I do.
Let's look at my 'proof', does it make sense ? Have I made a mistake and if so where ?
Lori, if God is the omnipotent, supreme being then he also made free will which allows us to do evil things. But is this a contradiction in terms ? How can one design ( which means totally controlling it ) something like freedom ? Doesn't this mean that freedom must be something that had to exist already as a predisposition ?
So god didn't create everything, some things like freedom, love, hate must have existed before his creation. But if all these things existed independently, how can we still speak of an omnipotent supreme being ? This brings us right back to my previous proof of omnipotence.
As it stands there are only two options here I think, or God doesn't exist since then we have our freedom, or freedom is an illusion that God pretended to give us.
[This message has been edited by Plato (edited May 26, 1999).]
05-26-99, 11:13 AM
I don't know the answer to your question however, I can tell you how to find the answer....(I did it myself and it really works) the only catch is, if you ask the question in this manner, you might not be prepared for the answer. Are you ready?
This is what you do, when you get in bed and are about to go to sleep, get your body "all comfy", relaxe your mind, and... "ASK GOD himself" (don't laugh)I'm serious! If you don't get an answer, ask Jesus.
Once you do this (and you really mean it!) you will get an answer. I'll give you a "hint" while your asking this question to GOD or JESUS think about the answer you believe to be true, the "feeling" you get after that thought is your answer. For example, if your belief, is in the negative direction, (and the answer is positive) you will be overcome with a feeling of "dred" (as if you are lost without a map) on the other hand if your belief, is in the positive direction, (and the anwer is positive) you will be overcome with a feeling of "achievement" (as if you just won the nobel prize!)
There is one more instance, if (while you are laying there) you are given no answer "at all" then....you probably have a bad connection, and will have to try it again with an "open mind."
Let me know how it turns out for you. O.K?
that is just amazing ! How do you know these things ? And also, what kind of questions can get an answer this way. If I would do the same thing with say what is the product of 5 and 6 and think real hard about 31.
[This message has been edited by Plato (edited May 26, 1999).]
LMAO@Plato... good one man :)
sorry Sirius B..no disrespect...
Sirius B..tell me.. just how do you get
a good connection to God? Maybe I need
a better modem?????
(America is beginning to wake up I see)
I just read your last entry to Lori, so you feel more related to the Indian concept of God as a force (May the Force be with you LOL).
I must admid that this could also be a way out of the free will versus predestination problem. But with this you don't believe in a personal god any more who has a Will and could have goals to achive. That is like saying, he is there but doesn't bother with us. Or am I seeing this wrong ?
Ghost in the Machine
05-26-99, 12:22 PM
Well, here i go, contradicting myself (Just for the record, i'm not sure where i stand on the existance of God so i may be doing this alot)
NEway, what i believe is that God isn't omnipotent at all- we only created him to be that because when we began identifiying religion as a major force in our life we began to let ourselves slip and began blaming all our problems on him and asking him to make wrong right (etc- you get the idea) So i guess essentiall what i'm saying is that, God only watches us, he doesn't control and alter out lives.
Ja Ne, Ghost
Ok Ghost, that's fair enough but if God just watches us, why bother including him in the picture at all ? There must be some interaction between god and the universe (creation maybe ?) otherwise one can dismiss him as non existent.
The problem with my first mail is that if there is a unique god and he created the universe, he must be omnipotent. If someone can disprove my previous deduction this just stands as a logical consequence. This has nothing to do with religion of any kind, I am just talking hypothetically.
So please, assuming I don't get a clear connection with god (since he just might not be home) could anyone help me on this ?
[This message has been edited by Plato (edited May 26, 1999).]
LOL..RE:may the force be with you
well, I believe that the spirits that I am
referring to do help... I mean I am assuming
that.. like stated in the other posts..
I felt them at my brothers house for the
blessing... so obviously they were there
to do that.
ummm am not quite sure what you mean by
personal god and will.. unless you are
talking about God, as Lori sees God of the
Bible ect... If that is the case..no, I
think that this God of the Bible is alllll
made up...Kind of what people think of as
Greek mythology... So no, he is not there..
since he is not there...he doesn't bother
with because he does not exist.
clear as water or mud?? LOL
05-26-99, 03:00 PM
According to the scriptures god created everything so how could anything exist before god?
Hatred, etc came about when Adam ate form the tree of 'truth' or whatever and everything became clear to him so god made us imperfect. Have you read the bible?
I did read the bible, generalhurrss. God (as it stands in the bible) also created the apple and the tree of good and evil since he created everything.
But this doesn't work for freedom now does it ? At what time did God create freedom ? As a matter of fact the word freedom isn't in the genesis story at all. (I have it lying in front of me as I write this) I does say that God created man in his own image. Interpreted as you want...
05-26-99, 05:25 PM
As of my reply to your question 'is god omnipotent?' if omnipotent means all powerful then is it not all powerful to create a universe such as ours, how omnipotent can a god get? Of course I speak hypothetically as I am a non-believer in a single creator.
Your other point on freedom. I would imagine that the concept of freedom was not an issue in genesis as freedom is a desire to someone imprisoned or held against their will. Was anyone held against their will in the chapter of genesis? Freedom is to be free and in your god's eyes we are free, he did not make the laws upon this planet we did when we voted so and so into governmental power. Man denies freedom from his own kind therefore we created freedom.
We are pretty good at screwing things up for ourselves.
You did not answer my question from long ago. What will your omnipotent god do to you when you die?
05-26-99, 06:16 PM
"Hey", (Plato/Flash) tee-hee, tee-hee,tee-hee
I get the "eerie" feeling that you don't think my way of "connecting" to the "omnipotent-one" is plausible? It could happen. ( C'mon you guys,lighten up)
The whole idea is no "one-person" has the answer (how many times have you heard that?) If no one really knows, then my form of contact could be just as "valid" as anyone elses...yes? By the way, I tried the connection method with the product of 6 and 5...somehow I keep "feeling" 29 (LoL)!
With regard to God and freedom:
Here's my 2 cents. Everything about humans is physical, including our personality, thoughts, tendencies and moods. That means, everything we ever do is only a very complex chain of physical reactions. Thus, assuming causal physics, everything that was ever done, is being done, or will ever be done is a direct consequence of the time-evolution of the entire physical system that is the universe. Given that, the entire history of the universe was embedded in its initial conditions, even including me writing down this sentence. Therefore, if the universe was created on purpose then an omnipotent creater had control over absolutely every last little detail. In this sense also, 'free will' is only an illusion, and human behavior is only unpredictable in the sense that, for example, complex weather systems are unpredictable. (although I wager our behavior is even more complex than any weather system)
To summarize, the universe is only a pre-recorded movie playing itself out, and we are only some of the countless actors in it. How's that for you guys? :)
05-26-99, 11:38 PM
Sirius B! Hey man, I've made that connection! Works every time. I've never found a dog easier in my life! LOL! It's good to know that there's at least one other Jesus freak out here.
Flash, the answer to your question IS Plato's question = omnipotence. Forget our dimensions; forget time. Boris has a real nice take on the concept.
I'm still smiling even when I sound pissed. A little frustrated sometimes, but not angry. I get your point. It took me a while, but I see where you're coming from. Obviously, though, God did create the concept of free will, even if it was a result of creating other things, like spiritual laws. Laws are made to be broken, and that is a trite saying, but is really very true. If no choice, then why laws. It kind of takes the fun out of it. God = the truth, whatever that is, and whatever He made it to be. It comes back to the notion of the dictator. I guess He didn't want to be known as a dictator, and probably purposefully. I view spiritual laws the same way I do natural laws. They are the truth. We didn't make them up, they just existed when we got here, and we HAVE to follow them, and not f them up, or we create imbalance, and one that compounds over time. It seems that you are trying to visualize or at least conceptualize omnipotence. You must be smarter than I, my friend, because the concept is way beyond my gray matter. Good luck though!
to answer your question : I don't have the faintest idea ! I will be as surprised as you are, it is one way of making death a bit less frightening because I will be so curious about it that I might forget my fear of the unknown.
Darn, perhaps our math is wrong after all...
Your devotion to dialectic materialism sounds almost as passionate as Lori's devotion for christ. You do realise you are making a statement of believe as irrational (as in not verifiable) as her by believing everything is physical. Beside I grow more and more suspicious of you having read works of Marx or Hegel. Your view on determinism sounds a bit like their to me ;-).
I must protest against this kind of determinism because there has been experimental proof against it, namely quantum uncertainty. Einstein thought there were hidden variabels and a lot of people still do but if you follow the copenhagen interpretation of quantummechanics then there is no way of predicting when (for example) an unstable nucleus will decay. Of course you might say but that is only on the microscopic level, macroscopically things are determined. But you know as well as I do that determinism doesn't work like that, or everything is determined or it isn't, there is no way between it.
I must thank you for your confidence in that I will succeed in conceptualising omnipotence but I'm afraid that is just the reason why I posted this message. In raising the question I was hoping to get some new input from any of you guys.
Maybe we should first better define what free will is.
Can we simple put free will equal to making choises who are by themselves equally probable ? Say I 'm walking down a road and suddenly I come to a T-junction. I am free to choose one of the two roads.
Now god in his omnipotence can make me choose the left one whithout me realising this. If he does that the freedom of choosing has gone up one level from me to him. How do I know that I made the choise ? There is no way of knowing for certain so this is where faith comes in. Here we will have to believe that god has left us free to make the choise. Why ? Because He told us "He made us in His image". Of course this is also something we just have to believe.
This is the problem I have with religion the proliferation of things you "just have to believe in" This problem always arises when you are dealing with inconsitent theories. Once you have one inconsistency, everything can be proven with the theory.
Is there a way out ? Logic tells us to disregard any inconsistent theory but we are illogical beings so the mysterie stays.
05-27-99, 09:00 AM
we will have to "tackle" that whole math thing on another thread (LoL).
I am more interested in the "proliferation of things we must believe." I had a huge problem with this a year ago. It really almost drove me to join the "ranks" of the Un-believers! It seemed no one could give me a straight answer. I went to a school of ministry and thought they (all those in attendence) must have the answers. No one did! I am sure you can imagine what happened next. I declared myself "athiest." The moment I did this, everything became crystal clear...(product of 6 and 5 again). For the record (not that it matters) I am not an athiest (although, I have a few "good" friends who are) and I did finally get the answers I (so desprately) searched for.
You guys have the honor of hearing that "testimonial" (LoL). Those who know me will never hear me say that...? Hmmmm
How does this help you (Plato)? If you really want to know the answer to something, you usually find it (you just have to "believe"..Oops!)
Lori, how so?????? come on... LOL you know
christians can take ANYTHING.. regarding
god's characteristics..ect.. and make it
fit by coming up with answers such as yours.
Sirius..first, wanted to say welcome to the
board ... as far as your comment to Plato..
RE: How does this help you (Plato)? If you really want to know the answer to something, you usually find it (you just have to "believe"..Oops!)
I could make myself believe anything if I
wanted to, but if I did this..would I be
following my heart???? Wouldn't my belief
then be some made up f'd up illusion?
Sure it would... truth is in our hearts..
don't you think??? What matters is that
our actions follow what is in our hearts.
Making yourself believe in something you
do not believe in..just doesn't make any
sense...because your belief then is false.
Ghost in the Machine
05-27-99, 12:49 PM
in accordance to what i wrote before, i guess what i meant is that God isn't omnipotent and that there may be something greater out there...
But anyway, if God truely is omnipotent, then, like Plato was saying, it eliminates all free will and choice, and we only have faith that he left us this choice. So, in theory, how do we even know at all- maybe he really does control out lives and only chooses for us to have faith and others not to, if that were so, then those who have no faith could argue "how come he chose them and not me?" and then those who belive would tell them because they have faith in their God. Some could also argue that since some believe and others do not, then that proves to them that God is fair and gives us a choice. But of course how do we even know...and so the loop recircles. Do you understand what i mean? We could analze the c*rap out of this and we wouldn't get very far...perhaps one day the answer will present it's self but then that creates a whole new discussion about if God wants us to know or not.
Also, another observation, maybe with God and his omnipotent ways he allows us to think so we can learn- what is the point of creating life if you control its every move...but then of course that could be taken into context to that of a little girl playing with her Barbies and giving her doll a new car, a house, a boyfriend and a closet full of clothes...
Ja Ne ,Ghost ITM
05-27-99, 05:58 PM
I suggest you read the bible from cover to cover, you will be surprised and more curious than ever.
When we pass over we are merely sleeping. Once armageddon has been and gone we are resurrected to walk the earth again (I say 'we' metaphorically) but not all of us are given this second chance, me especially as I defy god's existance.
Anyway this is how the story goes, we are to be faithful to god and abide by the teachings of the bible, lead a clean happy life (and no swearing, Lori), but always we must give thanks to our creator for he will return this with everlasting life, yep, live forever if you are faithful enough. What happens is after armageddon has taken place and god has rid the earth of all false religions, the christian religion being the true religion, apparently, all those that believed in god or who did not receive word of god will be resurrected to live upon the earth for one thousand years and after that period, I think, he will unleash the devil for the second time to test the will of his people. Those that fail him will die, permanent, and those who stay faithful unto him will live forever.
Only the chosen one hundred and forty-four thousand have a seat in heaven, I would imagine these are the ones who are loyal unto him from birth to death (not Lori).
You can check this out it is in the bible.
Two years of bible studying wakes you up.
05-27-99, 06:42 PM
Thanks for the ride on the Welcome Wagon (Yeah!) I know it sounds hard to believe, and is not very logical but, all the answers are just "not available" (at this time).
Have you ever been traveling on the freeway and forgot what exit you were suppose to take? You couldn't pull over on the shoulder to ask anyone, so you took the off ramp that you "believed" was the correct one. If you make a mistake, then you get back on and try it again. I know that's an "ultra-simplistic" way to view it but when it all boils down...understanding God and making a decision to "believe"...is... EFFORTLESS. (that always makes me smile...see I'm smiling at you right now!)
[This message has been edited by Sirius B (edited May 27, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Sirius B (edited May 27, 1999).]
Hey man, ain't nothing wrong with materialism. And it's not unverifiable either. Though I can't say I've read Marx or Hegel; everything you hear is basically my own diatribe :)
But on the serious side: if you claim that at the quantum level the universe is not deterministic, then aren't you saying that at that level the universe isn't causal? Then you'd seem to be proclaiming that at that ultimate level the universe isn't even physical! I personally prefer determinism at all levels over that last statement. Besides, once you claim there is a duality of existence (causal and non-causal), you are faced with the problem of interface: how does one connect (transition) to the other?? It's the same problem as the one that arises out of the supposed interaction between a material body and an immaterial soul. How do we make a connection?
The Copenhagen interpretation is a sore in my eyes; how can anyone seriously claim that math is the ultimate level of understanding, and that there is no solid reality beyond the formulas?! Math is only a model of physical reality, let's not forget that. 2+2=4 is only true because that's how it is in the physical world. I'd much rather believe that the fine substructure of the Planck-scale universe is unobservable with the present methods, rather than believe that it doesn't exist.
But why don't we question idealism instead of materialism here? You, Plato, seem to be clinging to that school of thought, even judging by your 'callsign'. How do you justify your belief in the spiritual? Or, even more importantly, how did such a belief come about in your case? Oh -- and what do you think about Plato's (the real guy's :)) ideal forms? After all, that's where the Christians got their idea of heaven, isn't it? Isn't that stuff a bit too anscient and primitive for these days?
So what you are saying...is some how some
way I have taken the wrong road in believing
Ok, I REALLY am trying to understand you..
what connection?? what does one do to get
on this right road?? how do you not know
it is nothing but a dead in again, time
and energy wasted!?!?!?!!?!?!
What makes you think you are right?
HOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW do you know for FACT???
Somnambulists claim that the entire world and everything in it is but a dream. Some more extreme views state that it's only a dream in God's mind. I think it's total kaka, but that viewpoint (and something Nicolas Negroponte once said) inspired me to the following little trip.
Imagine the whole world is a computer simulation. I mean, an outright, no-holds-barred, down-to-the-last-quark super-massive computation. The simulation is totally deterministic, since everything and anything that happens only happens causally and according to the pre-programmed laws.
Now imagine there's this human, being simulated to the last atom, inhabiting a planet he/she calls Earth. The human thinks it has choice, and freedom of thought if nothing else. Well, we all know the human doesn't have any choice; in fact it doesn't even exist for real -- it's just a pattern of activity in the computational grid. But, from the human's viewpoint, it experiences things with all of its senses, it perceives a continuous stream of thought and consciousness on its part, and in general it has absolutely no way of knowing that it's actually only a simulation. Hey, it could happen :)
Now -- the human thinks it has a soul... Wrong!
The human thinks it has free will... Wrong!!
The human thinks God made him. Wrong!!!
See what I'm driving at?
It might be useful to form theories about the functioning of matter within the universe, since such theories tend to lead toward new tools, deeper understanding of reality, and so on. But if we can explain the functionality of the universe and ourselves with no help from supernatural assumptions (which, it seems, we can) -- then why even bother sticking to those assumptions? What's the chance these random guesses even approach the truth? Mathematically, the chance is 0.
[This message has been edited by Boris (edited May 28, 1999).]
I think it is interesting that you said about the 144.000 that has the ticket to go to "Level 2"
I havent read the bible at all, but i also cant remember that Jesus approved any churches either.. tell me about that, and why Christianity is the "right" religion.
As I said before, i havent read the bible, but from the little that i have read, and from the Christian people that i have talked to, i cant see figure out why it all refers to the "Jews" " The king of Jews" and all that. .where does it say white people, black people, asians and indians and all that?
This sounds stupid, but it is still my belief that the Bible, and the religion that comes from that, is all meant for Jews and Jews only. So again that tells me that those 144.000 people that got the ticket, will all be Jews.
Dont tell me that i am full of crap and all that, give me a normal and straight answer. I know that there are many Christians here, me not being one of them, so dont get mad at me for expressing my opinion.
I know is sounds strange, but it seems to me that many of you know alot about that, and i am looking for an answer to it..
I am a Norwegian, and since Christianity killed the old norse religion by force between AD 990-1045 ( Thor, Odin, Loke and all those Gods)
The only other European religion that i can think of other than the Norse, is the old Greek Mythology which shared the same fate as the Norse did.
by the way.. Many scandinavians now convert from Christianity, to the old norse again. What does that tell you?
" Hey.. I am only Norwegian..."
05-28-99, 03:15 PM
Firstly let us put humanity into perspective here. It does not matter if your are Norwegian, we are all born equal, that you must remember.
Churches do not exist in the true religion, they are called kingdom halls and they are merely large rooms with a stand or stage were believers speak to the congregation, there are no icons, no pictures or depictions, no crosses and no alters. What you see are churches of false religion built in the middle ages by people who did not understand the true nature of the bible.
I do understand that something happened between the Jews and god and that he spited them, I shall look into that one.
When the tower of Babylon was built god sent forth his rage and divided the people cursing them with different colours and languages so that it became more difficult for them to defy him, so I should imagine that in the early part of the scriptures everyone spoke the same language and bore the same colour skin. The bible is very in-depth.
The hundred and forty-four thousand will probably be what we would call 'high priests' but these chosen ones will have a faith and a devotion unmatched by anyone of god's followers, they will be the true leaders of christian religion.
Why is christianity the right religion. Take a look at the world today. Ireland consists of catholics and protestants and frequently that break the laws of god, thou shalt not kill, love thy neighbour. Laws are made not to be broken. Islamics preach the word of god via a machine gun, again thou shalt not kill. Mormons take a percentage of your wage, god only asks you to give what you can afford, if you look deep enough you will see that all these religions and more stray from the teachings of the scriptures, so all are false religions and all will feel god's wrath for their lack of faith and for lying to his people.
They have all lied. As I grew up I was told that if I was good I would go to heaven, 'a lie' and if I was bad I would go to hell, 'a lie'. Hell is here on earth, god sent forth satan to reign on earth not in a fiery pit.
The only reason people leave christianity is because you have to be devoted to god and truly believe in the bibles outcome of everlasting life, that is why Jehovah's witnesses, the christians will survive armageddon and have everlasting life, because they truly believe in the bible and follow it to the letter, so to speak.
H-Kon you are not full of crap, you are as I was two years ago, but someone took their time to teach me the truth behind the bible and what I was taught in school merely disgusts me. You ask questions because you want to understand and that is were the human race has failed on religion because very few understand.
Probably only two percent of the planets population actually have the true faith of christianity.
05-28-99, 05:34 PM
I think God is omnipotent. I all so think that he loves us, but that love is that of a parent. I do believe in life after this universe. There are many things that a parent might lovingly and knowingly do to a child that is good for the child even if that child hates it. There is many things in this universe that we think of as bad ,but maybe in the view of the afterlife they are good for us. If what doesn't destroy us makes us stronger and if life goes on after death in this life, then maybe as bad as things seem in the long run it makes us stronger.
05-28-99, 06:20 PM
I have got the answer for you about the jewish question and they definitely do not come under the list of the hundred and forty-four thousand.
In the bible the jews persecuted Christ, the son of JEHOVAH, and then they crucified him. This, obviously, angered Jehovah so he cursed the jews and refused to recognise them. Singularly he has forgiven jews who have proven themselves to be loyal to him, but he has never forgiven them on the whole, remember their persecution in the second world war. This is what Jehovah saw for them in the future and that is why he was not their to answer their call. They killed his son and he took his revenge by allowing them to suffer.
Is Jehovah omnipotent? I guess he can do as he pleases after all he owns us.
Thank you for your answer Generalhurrss.
I still dont get the point where it says "Jesus the King of jews, and its all about Jews.
If the Jews were the bad guys in this story, then i still dont understand it. .hey i might pick up the book and just go ahead and read it. tho i heard that takes around 4 years,, but.
( I wonder what Lori is gonna say about this LOL)
05-28-99, 08:21 PM
I'm sorry "Flash"
In response to your post to me I only have the follwing to say...
1. You didn't take a "wrong road"
2. There probably isn't even a road to take
3. Maybe it's not "EFFORTLESS" at all
4. There really is no "connection"
5. I am not right, not at all :(
6. I truly, don't know for "FACT"
As for the "highway off ramp" scenario....it was a bad, bad, bad scenario. You mustn't take anything I write as a direct "hit" against you or anything you may believe.
I am sorry (to the 10th power).
I forgot one thing tho.
I agree with you about the Mormons, Islam, and all the other denominations.
But what i cant quite understand is what people will be the ones that get to Level 2?
For me that would be the people that believe in God through the Nature, and all that Nature gives us.. Humans are the only rase on this planet that dont take care of the Nature we have around us, and that is also the reason why i think this planet dont belong to us.. since we cant take care of it, and we will be punished.
People say that Nostradamus is cryptic.. what about all those people who wrote the bible.. man.
Oh.. Do you believe that all religions, even those that are no more, including the Mayas, Inkas, and do have their little "book" meaning the truth given to them. like the bible.
I am havent studied religion much, except for that i was forced to study in school But is there a " red thread" that all religions have in common?
Do anyone have a clear picture on that?
I have to say that i really do not believe in the religions of today.. I Believe in God, but not in the shape or form that we perceive it today.
I believe in God, as in the Nature, Where every living thing has a soul, and a purpose.
( Psychotronic energy, but thats another story)
" Just another Norwegian"
Tell me.. would a father send his child
to a pit of darkness..continuous falling..
weeping...nashing of teeth...continually
reminded of the wrong things that they
had done... nothing but pure torture??
and for what??? because you do not
do what he wants you to..pretty harh if
you ask me.
awwww shit, man... I didn't mean for you
to think that I am mad at you..please..
do not take it that way..
I am the one that is sorry... I get wrapped
up sometimes and things just over
take without thinking how it may sound.
I did not mean to make you feel bad..
I think its time for flash to take a break
from the forum awhile.. LOL..
catch ya around later..
05-28-99, 11:49 PM
I believe Christ was the king of the jews because that is what he was at the time before they crucified him. I shall try to find out more on this so that we can both get a better understanding.
On the hundred and forty-four thousand, I shall see if I can find a better picture on that too as even I am unsure as to who these chosen ones are.
The only common denomination of all religions is a god and that is the only similarity. The bible is supposed to be the true writings of the actual creator of the universe written by scholars for his people, so ancient religions such as the Incas, etc would not or may not have read the true words of Jehovah, this would mean that after armageddon has taken place these people would have to be resurrected in order to receive the true teachings of the bible.
What the human race fails to recognise is that to believe in Jehovah is to believe in the bible and to follow its teachings and this is what ninety-eight percent of the population does not do.
Jehovah's witness have a quest in life and that is teach us the word of Jehovah, but for them it is a grim task because most of the human race is ignorant and care less for what is in the bible.
You must read and follow the scriptures to truly believe in a god, it is no good just saying that you believe and hope that something becomes of it. As I have said before, it takes devotion and loyalty which many humans do not possess, unfortunately, that is why we are destroying our planet.
The true christian religion is very difficult to grasp simply because we have been taught the wrong concept during our educational years. To understand the concept of the bible your mind must be open to all kinds of suggestion and great thinking. It is a long path, but it all boils down to faith.
This is our planet, it was given to us by Jehovah, only we have forgotten and those that are faithless shall perish, like me.
Ok, general, I've tried to be nice, but honestly, man, you've been brain-washed. Flash, this is why you can't stand Christianity. Exactly why, and I couldn't have made up a better example. Skep, you wanna talk about exclusivity? First of all, general, you asked me what happens when we die, and me, being the helpful person that I am, gives you some pointers about near-death experiences. But you really didn't WANT to know what happens when you die, because apparently you already know! And that f'ing amazes me, seeing as how you're still alive! Oh, I see, a couple of pimple-faced teenage boys with neck ties on gave you all of the answers. Well, seeing as how they did, I don't appreciated being condescended to, and toyed with. If you've got a question, then ask it. If you've got something to say, then say it. But this is no Biblical quiz show, and I don't like it when people yank my chain. I'm out here to actually LEARN something, not to tell everyone that I already have all of the answers, and quiz them til they get it right. What I'm led to believe, I share with others, and I try to respect differing opinions, but yours sir, stinks! So you're not going to heaven, and neither am I, huh? Because I swear? So, what are you in for? Lying to your mommy? Do you have any idea what kind of damage you're doing to your own soul? Not to mention, Flash is probably regurgetating her beer right now! No one out here, or anywhere for that matter, needs any more negative, judgement-soaked, doom and gloom from Christians, ok? I think it's fair to say that we've all been damaged by that stinking perception at some point, and I'm sick of it. I mean think about it dude, you let a bunch of egotistical cult members convince you that they were somehow better people than you are. The 144,000? H-kon, these are the Jews who will preach the Gospel of Christ after the rapture of the church in the end times. They are protected people. They don't get it right the first time, many people don't, but think about it...Who better to preach the Word of God when the Church is gone? When the Holy Spirit is gone? When there is no help from the good spirits anymore? They will save many from the antichrist; they have been preparing to for centuries, and they don't even know it. And that is hogwash about them being the only ones to enter heaven. Absolute crazy bull-shit, man. They may have "special roles" but we all will. EVEN YOU, IF YOU WAKE UP! Oh, and one more thing...hell is not here on earth today for us. It is on earth, but only AFTER death, silly. The definition of hell is being stuck earth-bound, or in some capacity, void of God in the afterlife. Stop looking to charismatic leaders to tell you what to think and how to live. Follow your own heart; that's why God gave it to you. All you're doing is breaking it.
05-29-99, 03:07 AM
All is forgiven, I had a "less than productive" day and came to the message board to escape. Only to find that I had offended someone :(
Please don't take a break, I really enjoy reading your posts! :)
[This message has been edited by Sirius B (edited May 28, 1999).]
I read your post, and i also remember that you in another post said that you respected others opinions, but i feel that last post of yours was more of a personal attack on General.. I just had to say that.
But i also agree with you in a way when you say that those 144.000 that gets to level 2, will come back when everything is gone.. but i dont think they will come back here just to preach the word to the few remaining survivors,
If you look at the way we are doing things today, almost nothing is done organic.. we are doing everything synthetic, to make it cheaper, and its all is with a side-effect that is starting to alter ones genetics..so i believe we are going to learn the way of making things good again. but not in the name og God.
i think they will teach us to do things right, and i honestly dont think that if you are a member of one religious denominaton, you will be one of the chosen ones, and those who are not, but believe in God in their own way, will not. that is arrogant just to believe that, and that means to me that if you have the brand "Christian" on you, you are a better person than other, because according to the brand you are supposed to know better than everyone else.
I treat all religion as the same. .neither is wrong, and neither is right. that is why i mean that the truth is subjective in the form that what you believe is right for you, doesnt mean that if i had another way of thinking , and believed that was the truth, doesnt make that wrong, and besides. no one can prove it. no one can prove nothing, so your guess is as good as mine.
I know i am an "outsider" in many ways.. I havent read the bible, because the original meaning of the book is gone.. it has been tranlsated, and re-translated, and the old catholics have rewritten the book so many times, to gain control over so many people and also in the name of Mammon( money) , that i simply cant trust the word in there, because humans have been screwing it up since the dawn of the book.
I believe in God, but the way it is been percieved at the moment, is nothing that i can belive in.. so fit me into a category, cause i am not buying it.
05-29-99, 11:55 AM
So I tested your knowledge on the bible and I made a fool of you, so what. You wish to attack then I shall merely defend. If you own a bible throw it away because you lack the heart for its content.
I do not profess to know everything and my belief in a god is more negative than anyone, I am merely putting across information that I know exists in the bible and I am trying to help H-Kon understand what it all means. I can not be negative on everything, I have my own views on the bible and it is not what the christians told me.
I am truly amazed at your lack of respect for any suggestion than your own. Just because you don't fall under the banner of a loyal subject of god you become highly-strung. It is people like you who are blind, I merely ignore the existance of a god. You spit out your putrid bullshit and you don't even know the content of the book you are quick to preach excerts about, all you know is genesis and revelation, someone steal the middle bit to your bible?
You have spawned determination and I shall obtain this book and I shall seek the words that I have spoke so that you can read these extracts and find out for yourself what this book says. You must remember, I did not write it other people did so do not attack someone for stating what other people have written about. I asked the same questions H-Kon asked and I got the answers and they were shown to me in black and white, I am not brain-washed just because I remembered the answers.
You have proven one thing to me, Lori, you have given the same typical response the rest of the population has given in response to the bible you profess so much to believe in.
I opened my mind to try to understand a book and now I do understand its content but it does not change my views, I still believe the bible was influenced by extraterrestrials.
Tell me, whats wrong with giving the other sides view for a change?
And one other thing which you small mind failed to pick up. These christians believe in the bibles concept of everlasting life that is the purpose of their adherence to the bible, to live forever. What is written in the bible is not a brain-washed problem of mine. I would only be considered brain-washed if I actually became a christian and that I shall never be because I refuse to bow to any diety.
Gen... I have not had a f'n lot of sleep..
so if I seem rude or a bitc* .. well
Ease up on Lori..alright?? I know we all
have our different opinions and beliefs..
ect... but one thing I do know about Lori
is she has heart... so the two of you differ
in what you believe...big deal..that shit
happens all the time... I know I know...I
get all bent out of shape too sometimes.. I
guess what I am saying is I have met A LOT of
christians through out my life... Lori, is not like a lot of christians ... She has spunk,
yeah... you too stand by what you believe in.. Do you not think it might be better to
state how you feel ...let it go... don't let
people get to you man... You are trying to
teach H-Kon..what you believe to be true..
Lori is trying to share with others as what
she believes to be true also. I guess what
I am trying to say... is Lori is a good person... give her a chance. That doesn't
mean you have to believe what she says..yeah
I know... you feel attacked... but she does
know her shit also..I am not saying that she
is right and you are wrong...I am just saying
she has spent a lot of time searching and
learning from her sources..just like you.
I maybe wrong here, but I do not think so..
I think she has read more than just Gen and Rev..ok? I do not know about you..but I am
getting tired of fighting with people in this
forum... maybe its time to put the swords down..learn what we can...what we do not agree with- toss it aside. Ya know?
Hey.. I was not offended... those questions
I was asking were, believe it or not LMAO..
I am going to try to behave from here on out... sometimes I let my anger get the
best of me...and in the end.. I now see that what I had said to you hurt you, that is not what I wanted to do. I am sorry for that..I
really am. I do not want to hurt anyone.
05-29-99, 02:39 PM
Flash and Lori,
Very well, I apologise for my insolence, I do not wish to make a war of this, so I lay down my arms. This is a forum after all.
In future I shall use caution as to how I reply to any subject matter.
Hello? You didn't make a fool out of me because I failed the quiz, you made a fool out of me by spewing that Jehovah's witness shit like it's the true word of the Bible, you arrogant sob! YOU are the one that said that we aren't going to heaven, right? Were you being sarcastic, or judgemental? Make up your f'ing mind. You are here to slam Christianity just because YOU SIR were stupid enough to let yourself be taken by a bunch of fools for two years. Listen, I'm glad that you changed your mind, and decided not to take their word as the truth, but coming out here, and slamming all Christians, including me, is not an answer. You sound very stupid and close-minded. Get over yourself, general, and you may just learn something new. Because what you have been told about the Bible is a bunch of bs.
[This message has been edited by Flash (edited May 30, 1999).]
05-29-99, 05:14 PM
If I sound stupid and close minded try listening to yourself. You are a fine subject of narrow-mindedness, and before you have another go at me I shall call myself narrow-minded too, so do me a favour and bury the hatchet.
05-29-99, 06:54 PM
The best way to find the answers is to look in the bible itself.
Revelation, chapter 20 tells of what has happened after armageddon and how satan is released back on the earth.
Matthew, chap27, verse 37 mentions the king of the jews, work it out, that way I don't get criticised.
Revelation, chap7, ver4 about the hundred and forty-four thousand.
To both Lori and General.
In a way it is good to know that you both are really devoted to your belief as I am , and i agree with Flash that we should lay our arms down, and try to do this a little calmer.
The thing here is that no one really knows anything about what it all means.. we all have our opinions, and who knows whos right?
That is why i say that the truth is subjective. its what fits our individual minds that we "decide" to believe in.
One humorous thing i have been thinking about.. I wonder if there is someone here that can combine all of our beliefs here, and make it as one.. that would be fun to read.
But i appreciate that you all, not only Lori, and General are so devoted to this.,. this is what i believe is the reason i come to this site 100 times a day to read your stuff..
General,.I am gonna check that info out.. thank you :-)
05-29-99, 08:58 PM
Take care man, whatever you are dealing with in your life (right now) will pass eventually. I really do enjoy reading your posts and I don't think you need to change anything about yourself to make it easier for people like myself. Changing who you are or what you stand for just to appease others is never a good thing (in the long run).
Even though I haven't been posting here as long as most of you guys have, I have a feeling that you will "handle" whatever it is (in your life) that is making things uncomfortable for you. Be strong Ma-man!
We shall talk again.
05-30-99, 04:19 PM
Another one here for you.
Matthew Chap 27, vers 29, how christ is mocked, he is the son of god not the king of the jews.
You are what you are.
Because I don't conform my relationships fail, so, who gives a shit.
What I mean is-you are an individual and people should look at you as you are not try to make you something they want you to be, that's what I told my estranged wife anyway.
Fine, general, arms are laid down. By the way, were you just swearing? lol It's funny to me that one day I get bitched at for being too close-minded, and the next day I get bitched at for being too open-minded. Would anyone else like to judge Lori??? (Now I sound like Bob Dole, lol!) Let me explain why I reacted so vehemently regarding your Jew-hova bull-shit spewing...I've been posting out here for quite some time, and yes, I am a Christian whether you would like to think so or not. I've taken an OVERWHELMING amount of crap from non-believers because of the superiority-complex, judgementalism, power-hungered, exclusivity-minded bullshit that has transcended from Christianity over the ages, and still is today. And you coming out here, sharing the perverted tales of "the chosen few" with everyone, is not helping anything or anyone. I could not tell at first if you were believing and perpetuating the BS, or making fun of it. I still don't quite know where you stand. This is where I'm at...I think that it's safe to say that there is ultimately only one truth. None of us, out here at least, know what that one truth is. I believe that the Bible is Divine and true, and the absolute final word regarding our "missions in life". We have not been able to successfully interpret this piece of work, with the main reason being our own egos, which Satan has been feeding upon for centuries upon centuries. I don't feel, though, that we should just throw this great and Divine work away, just because man's nature is to look at it through jaded eyes. I see no purpose in denomonationalism. It may be a funny thought, H-kon, but let's not sell ourselves short, shall we? Maybe we all CAN figure this truth out if we keep open minds, and keep praying.
05-30-99, 11:15 PM
Perhaps judging people is one of our flaws, especially when we do not really know each.
Firstly, I apologise for coming across offensively to you at any time and secondly, please stay open minded.
On religion I stand divided and probably always will, it seems to be a fight from within. Even though I learnt many things about the bible and believe the bible has a great influence over us I always come across a contradiction somewhere down the line and the war in my head starts all over again.
I do not mean to patronize anyone and hope you can forgive me for my interpretations, perhaps, one day, the scriptures will become clear to everyone, and then again perhaps not, the division in me will be eternal, that is why I swear and do other bad things, because I will not return to earth. Perhaps in death I shall find peace from this world of chaos.
Inside, I still have a million questions that will go unanswered.
If there is only one creator, why has he left us to continue on this path of destruction that we are falling into, he could stop it now. Why has he left satan to lead so many into an oblivious destiny of blindness, feeding on anger, hatred, envy and greed. How long will he prolong the wars of religion and ruling of dictatorships.
Divided I stand, divided I shall fall.
Psalms. Chapter 83, verse 18 gives out god's name that is why I used it. Everything has a name, god does too.
Maybe we are more alike than we think. Chaulk it up to a huge learning experience, and try not to be so hard on yourself. Don't forget about how much the Bible concentrates on the concept of forgiveness. It's more important than judgement, I think. Then again, no judgement, no need for forgiveness, huh? Still, as far as your questioning goes, I've been there too, and probably am still to varying degrees. I've come to a conclusion though, that life is definately a learning experience, it just seems that a lot of times we're not quite sure what it is that we're supposed to be learning, right? Other times, though, when you see war, and children being abused, and abortion clinic bombings, and racism, and kids being massacred at school, well, it seems kind of obvious doesn't it? The concept is simple generally, the debate lies in the details.
I agree with Lori. In the garden a choice was made, from that point on God allowed us to make our own choices. It is all about the choices we make, choices that hold consequences. We can choose to believe or not believe in God, as well.
As far as whether or not free will existed before creation, it did. Lucifer exercised his free will.
I know that this really doesn't completely answer your question, but I don't think your question can be answered now. I do think that one day you will have all your answers.
When I think about Gods omnipotence, I think of a parent allowing their child to make mistakes so that they can learn from those mistakes and grow to be a responsible adult. It isn't easy to see your child make mistakes that can be painful, but out of love you do this for them. And of course, there are times as a parent where you have to intervene for your childs safety, as well, done out of love. I believe God and his angels do this regularly.
Oh, My beliefs are based on faith and his presence in my own life.
Have a nice day! Bev
Hi again people..
I have been away for a while installing BeOS R4 on my 'puter. So now i am gonna start reading all those posts and reply if i have a thing to say.
General.. i havent read it yet, but i will as soon i as can find some time.
Hi again people..
I have been away for a while installing BeOS R4 on my 'puter. So now i am gonna start reading all those posts and reply if i have a thing to say.
General.. i havent read it yet, but i will as soon i as can find some time.
Coming in late here.Left of centre.Would an omnipotent God create beings who question him ? He did. Why ?
I think there is a danger of an infinite loop there, once you start to question the questioning then why not question that and again and again, at infinitum.
we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
06-17-99, 11:34 AM
God didn't create a being to question him, this was the handy work of the serpent. As Adam and Eve were content with what they had, they had no need to question his being. Then came along the serpent and lured Eve into eating from the tree in the middle of the garden, which god had forbade. Hence, I see the light man.
God the Omnipotent created the serpent.Why ?
06-19-99, 04:17 PM
Maybe you should try reading the scriptures, they are more weird than one would think. Your question should be why god created a serpent that walks and talks. Whoever wrote genisis had certainly had a few spliffs to be seeing reptiles walking about the place and talking to humans. Yet another case that points to the bibles influence of alien intervention. Let's face it Jehova was just some creature from beyond who enjoyed being praised as some kind of god and in return he tried to teach us morals and show us our fate if we continued on the path to destruction.
01-28-01, 07:13 PM
Do you live near one of those toxic waste disposal sites in Arkansas, by any chance? Just curious...
So far you've managed to achieve approximately the same level of clarity in your posts on this board as you did back in biblical times via your so-called prophets. I would have expected your communication skills to have improved somewhat over the last couple thousand years.
Get off the dope, man!
An ye harm none, do what ye will.
02-07-01, 12:00 AM
If people admit that God is omnipotent, then they must also admit that God is a fool who knows nothing. Only when God can exists in both all knowning and not knowning states it can be omnipotent. I know both states are mutually exclusive, but it needs a paradox to make every possibility exist. However, I am afriad people won't admit that while God is all knowning, all good, and can do everything, He is also a fool, all evil and can do nothing.