Someone on the forums said once "college is a way rich people have of getting richer". Meaning that while you work hard you'll eventually end up working for someone that is rich while you slave away for them making them gain more wealth.

So based on this and your own personal knowledge of college do you think it's of value?

Who should attend college?

Why should someone attend college?

etc.

PS Is college just for mindless puppets?

All ditch diggers, sewer workers, kitchen helpers, toilet cleaners, ...., need a good, solid foundation of college-level education. It's not easy to learn to clean those damned sewers, that's a fact!

Baron Max

Is this a joke? I realize you are correct, I've seen specials on TV about cleaning sewers, it's just sick to me :-(

Who should attend college? Why should someone attend college? Is college just for mindless puppets?
Viruses, plants, insects, fishes, dinosuars -- all arguably the most successful terrestrial life forms ever.

None ever attended college.

None ever had to compete in any particular market-based economy.

So based on this and your own personal knowledge of college do you think it's of value?
At your age you should have formed an opinion about this yourself. What is it?

I bailed out of college when I figured out that most employers care far more about results, which I could deliver regardless. Most every job I've had "required" a degree.

Business does not require a degree. But if you want to be a doctor, professor, lawyer...you have to have one.

Yep. Are you sure you need one to be a lawyer, and that you can't just pass the bar exam?

I am fairly certain it is required to have a degree before you can apply to take the bar exam.

I am fairly certain it is required to have a degree before you can apply to take the bar exam.
Seems "law office study" is all that's required in my state: Permitted Means of Legal Study (Bar Exam) (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:fPloeva3DBwJ:www.abanet.org/legaled/publications/compguide2005/chart3.pdf+degree+required+bar+exam&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5). Class action lawsuits here I come!

I'm a masters degree law student at the Latvian University. And yes, I need a masters degree in law if I want to be a lawyer in this country.

Any way, here in Latvia almost everyone is a university or college student, it's a tradition and also many employers require if not a degree then that the employee is at least a student.

Someone on the forums said once "college is a way rich people have of getting richer". Meaning that while you work hard you'll eventually end up working for someone that is rich while you slave away for them making them gain more wealth.

So based on this and your own personal knowledge of college do you think it's of value?

Who should attend college?

Why should someone attend college?

etc.

PS Is college just for mindless puppets?

is life necessary?

In today's economic environment you most certainly do need college, to be quite honest a bachelors degree is not enough today as most companies require a masters.

Even if you want to be in business for yourself you should start off by getting a bachelors degree at a minimum. Then if you want to dig ditches, go for it at least when you get tired of that and you will get tired of it you can move on to supervising the ditch diggers.

The crap you here from some parents that they did it with out a degree is just that crap, you need security and the ability to advance yourself. Speaking as a dad with four kids I give this advice, as there have been many times that I wish that I had gone to school.

I am self employed for over 26 years and I love my work but there has been many times that I wish that I had that piece of paper to back up my knowledge but once you get a family and responsibilities then everything else goes on the back burner.

Would I be any further than I am now with a degree? I will never know, but I can almost quarentee that I would not have to work a 7 days week to be at the same spot.

Heck my son just 2 years out of school, working a 3 day week makes more than I did my first 15 years of being self employed, I could not be happier for him either.


My advice is get that degree, then if you want to work for yourself go for it! Work smarter not harder!


Good luck to all you kids!

Your son may make more than you did simply due to inflation.

Nowadays a degree from a typical university will cost about $150K, and that does not include the loss of income one could have made by working during those years. Nor does it include the loss of interest one could have made by saving instead of spending that money. And if loans are taken out (the rate is currently 6% for student loans, and variable to boot) the cost is of course far higher. The total cost of a degree could easily be $500K all things considered. That hardly seems worth it, considering that the degree typically serves only to get you an interview easier. There are other ways to get in the door that cost far less.

Someone on the forums said once "college is a way rich people have of getting richer". Meaning that while you work hard you'll eventually end up working for someone that is rich while you slave away for them making them gain more wealth.

So based on this and your own personal knowledge of college do you think it's of value?

Who should attend college?

Why should someone attend college?

etc.

PS Is college just for mindless puppets?


There are 3 realistic options in life. Go to college. Go into the military. Or go to prison.

You get to choose your environment, I'd say for most people college is the best environment. You can always go into the military after college and get the best of each of these worlds as a military officer. I must admit, I've thought about the military. Prison is horrible, it's the worst possible environment and should be reserved for the worst people.

Your son may make more than you did simply due to inflation.

Nowadays a degree from a typical university will cost about $150K, and that does not include the loss of income one could have made by working during those years. Nor does it include the loss of interest one could have made by saving instead of spending that money. And if loans are taken out (the rate is currently 6% for student loans, and variable to boot) the cost is of course far higher. The total cost of a degree could easily be $500K all things considered. That hardly seems worth it, considering that the degree typically serves only to get you an interview easier. There are other ways to get in the door that cost far less.

Like I said, you only have 3 places to choose from, college, the military, or prison. People who don't go to college and who don't join the military, usually go to prison.

I'm a masters degree law student at the Latvian University. And yes, I need a masters degree in law if I want to be a lawyer in this country.

Any way, here in Latvia almost everyone is a university or college student, it's a tradition and also many employers require if not a degree then that the employee is at least a student.

By the way, since you are a graduate student, what GPA is required for graduate school?

What is the process?

I think college is important, I don't know precisely how much college. I think after a bachelors degree it becomes less important. When you have a bachelors degree you have so many more options than you have without one, but with a masters degree or PHD, options don't increase much unless you want to teach or do something like law or management of businesses.

I think the military is an awesome deal if you have a degree, as an officer. I think being in the front line is extremely dangerous but officers actually have some status, does anyone here know the risk/rewards in favor of the military vs getting a masters?

People who don't go to college and who don't join the military, usually go to prison.
That's obviously false; you can’t support that statement.

I don’t have a degree, yet have a nice job. My profession, software development, is open to those without a degree, and there are tons of unfilled jobs at the $70K level. A person who spends six months learning by programming at home could easily get a job making $50K to start, without a degree.

Your son may make more than you did simply due to inflation.

Nowadays a degree from a typical university will cost about $150K, and that does not include the loss of income one could have made by working during those years. Nor does it include the loss of interest one could have made by saving instead of spending that money. And if loans are taken out (the rate is currently 6% for student loans, and variable to boot) the cost is of course far higher. The total cost of a degree could easily be $500K all things considered. That hardly seems worth it, considering that the degree typically serves only to get you an interview easier. There are other ways to get in the door that cost far less.
My law bachelor in a good university here cost me around 2700 lats, that's about 5100 USD, not that much. And I am working now during my masters.
And that really depends on the country you are talking about: in Latvia almost everyone has a degree or is close to getting one, so those who have no degree find themselves really disadvantaged when compared to the majority, besides university education only adds to a person.
By the way, since you are a graduate student, what GPA is required for graduate school?

What is the process?

Sorry, I have no idea about what you are talking about.
At the end of school we have state exams in which you get A B C D or F,
various uni programs require various exams, so if you want to study English philology, you have to have a good mark at the English language, Latvian language and Latvian literature exams on finishing school.
The best starting students get a free ride for one year, if they continue to be the best, they get state sponsored education all the way.

There are 3 realistic options in life. Go to college. Go into the military. Or go to prison.
I'm a high school drop-out.

I spent a very little time in the military (looking for an adventure when I was 18), even less time in jail and now I make over $100,000 US a year working as a Junior Executive at one of the largest banks in the world.

I'm a high school drop-out.

I spent a very little time in the military (looking for an adventure when I was 18), even less time in jail and now I make over $100,000 US a year working as a Junior Executive at one of the largest banks in the world.

Still a criminal then.

;)

I'm a high school drop-out.

I spent a very little time in the military (looking for an adventure when I was 18), even less time in jail and now I make over $100,000 US a year working as a Junior Executive at one of the largest banks in the world.

cool

I have a PhD.

I make 20k Euros a year.


Children...drop out of college.

Like I said, you only have 3 places to choose from, college, the military, or prison. People who don't go to college and who don't join the military, usually go to prison.

I'd like to know where you get this information.
Only 28% of adults in the US have a college degree (Census (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/007660.html)).
Some people in jail have college degrees.
Are you saying that more than 72% of the population is, or has been, in prison?

Where do you live where this indoctrination is so steep?

Still a criminal then.

;)

Even moreso now! :D

Nowadays a degree from a typical university will cost about $150K, and that does not include the loss of income one could have made by working during those years.
No way. $150k is at the extreme high end of private universities, and is certainly not "typical". At average cost of a 4-year public university is around $12k/year, including room and board.

http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/17/pf/college/college_costs/index.htm

My law bachelor in a good university here cost me around 2700 lats, that's about 5100 USD, not that much.
A degree seems well worth it there then. It can cost that much per semester in the US, just for tuition.

No way. $150k is at the extreme high end of private universities, and is certainly not "typical". At average cost of a 4-year public university is around $12k/year, including room and board.
I think you're right that $150K is too high. My local public university predicts (http://admit.washington.edu/Paying/Freshman/Budget) $18K this year. You'd have to budget about $80K for 4 years. But I think that's bare bones.

$150K is what I'm budgeting for my son, who's 10 years away. I don't expect for him to always eat in the university cafeteria and never leave the campus. Housing and tuition costs are rising about 8% annually here. I could probably budget $100K for a rural university.

I spent a very little time in the military (looking for an adventure when I was 18), even less time in jail and now I make over $100,000 US a year working as a Junior Executive at one of the largest banks in the world.
Has your lack of a degree been an impediment? Did your job "require" a degree? If so, how did you work around that?

Lie on your resume. Who checks anyway??

It's certainly a viable option. Lying is a standard business practice (think advertising).

I would say "No" - not for earning money at least. (World's richest man, did not graduate). I gave my daughters all the education they would take and even in the case of one, who has made little use of it economically, I have no regrets. The main reason to go to college and indeed to continue studying all your life, is for yourself. Learning, in any form, fortunately also usually helps one become richer, but IMHO, that is just a side effect.

I've never lied on my resume or at an interview.
I have gotten several jobs that stated they required a degree (one for the government, in fact).

Not having a degree hasn't made much of a difference, though I can't say it hasn't made any difference at all.
I know people well above me in the bank that do not have degrees, but most do.

It would likely have been easier to get where I am with a degree - without I have to be that much better, have that much more experience and be that much more convincing at interviews than others.
The next few levels, if I decide to move up, will be even more difficult.
The higher you get up in the corporate world, the more a degree means.

Lie on your resume. Who checks anyway??

You'd be surprised.

I've never lied on my resume or at an interview.
I have gotten several jobs that stated they required a degree...
Same here. No interviewer has even mentioned my lack of degree for some twenty years. There's a reason that education is listed at the bottom of the resume.

The higher you get up in the corporate world, the more a degree means.
Illogical, but true.

The three most important things are...
Have a good resume (hire someone to write it if you have to).
Learn how to interview well (this is what I think is most important).
Do you job well, once hired.

Do those three things, and you will not need a degree to succeed (of course some fields, that doesn't apply - it's difficult to get a job as a surgeon without a degree, regardless how well you interview).

That's obviously false; you can’t support that statement.

I don’t have a degree, yet have a nice job. My profession, software development, is open to those without a degree, and there are tons of unfilled jobs at the $70K level. A person who spends six months learning by programming at home could easily get a job making $50K to start, without a degree.

I said realistic. Look, Bill Gates is the richest man in the world and he has no degree. Some ex-convicts go on to sell hit Albums and make movies. Some people go from being homeless to filthy rich.

But it's not realistic to tell anyone that they can be successful by winning the lottery like you aparently have. You are lucky, period. There are many people smarter than you and more educated who make less money than you, and there are many people less educated than you and dumber who make more money. But if you want to guarentee success you need to follow the rules I highlighted.

TimeTraveler,
It's really quite simple.
Do we have more than 210,000,000 people in the prison systems and prison?
If not, then you must be mistaken about your assumption that if you don't go to college or the military then you will end up in jail.
By the way, zanknet is NOT an exception.
The lowest paid programmer I know is making close to $40,000 a year, average is probably about $55,000 a year and the best paid one I have met (just a programmer, not the head of a company) makes about $250,000 a year.
Obviously $250,000 a year is the exception, but $70,000 a year for a programmer with a few years experience in the right field is not uncommon at all.
It all depends on your field.
How many people in Carpentry do you think have jobs that require degrees?
Yet I know quite a few carpenters who made a damned good living.
Same goes for many fields.

I'd like to know where you get this information.
Only 28% of adults in the US have a college degree (Census (http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/007660.html)).
Some people in jail have college degrees.
Are you saying that more than 72% of the population is, or has been, in prison?

Where do you live where this indoctrination is so steep?

Exactly, only 20 percent of peasants living in America have degrees. What if you don't want to be a peasant? What if you grew up poor, in a ghetto and want to get out?


Just because all the people around you are too lazy to work hard and earn a degree it does not mean you shouldnt. It's you vs the world, if you don't get the degree then you'll be with the bottom 80% of the population when you could be in the top 20%.

Why would anyone choose to be in the bottom 80%? The worth of your life is at stake. The degree means your life is worth more. It's almost like how race is, but with a degree you actually have a chance to upgrade your race, so why would you choose the uneducated race?

Sure you might say, that some people today can survive without degrees, but this lucky few, will become fewer, and fewer, and the discrimination against people without degrees will become greater and greater. Do you want to live in a ghetto in the future? Look at how uneducated people are living in ghettos now, thats going to be your future if you don't get a degree, and the only reason you arent living like that in the present is because of luck, pure luck. Maybe you lucked out and got a good job, and maybe globilisation has not picked up steam yet.

The world operates like a jungle, it's you against the world. The value of your life, depends on your education level. It's a matter of status, and while you can say "well the bottom 80% are uneducated and live normal lives", don't be so sure of that. You do know the majority of that 80% are living in ghettos, or trailer parks right? The majority are NOT living in nice houses and being given great jobs.

Let's face it, the world is more competitive now than ever. Either you get smart or you die, thats how the world is. People who don't get an education end up homeless, they end up in prison, they end up dead.

Society does not care about these people, and it only gets worse with time, as the uneducated are becoming a race of their own. No one is protecting your job from being outsourced because no one cares. You are not entitled to a job, and if someone from a foreign country went and got a degree, why would anyone hire a more expensive American without a degree? And if you are a white male, you are the most expensive American to hire, and the most difficult to manage. Tell me, why would anyone choose to hire you over an Indian who will work twice as hard for less money, and who is more educated?

This is what you have to deal with, you have to deal with the other 6 billion people who want your job, and if you are not willing to fight for your job, you don't deserve it. If you are not going to compete, how exactly are you going to survive?

When society decides to rank, to see who is "better", as society seems to like to rank everyone, society currently ranks people by education, when you submit your resume, the first question they ask is what is your education. They don't care how "smart" you are, they want to know what proof you have of qualification so they can match it up with the other over-qualified people who want the job.

You can still get jobs based on who you know, maybe thats how some people without an education get jobs, but thats not going to work for much longer. There are entire families in this country who all have degrees, and everyone they know has a degree, and people can be elitist towards people who are uneducated. Do you blame them?

Now, if you were a soldier or something, you can still have status, but if you are not a soldier, and you don't have a degree, people view you automatically as a bum in a lot of cases.

My advice to anyone growing up, fuck what everyone says, get your degree.

TimeTraveler,
It's really quite simple.
Do we have more than 210,000,000 people in the prison systems and prison?
If not, then you must be mistaken about your assumption that if you don't go to college or the military then you will end up in jail.
By the way, zanknet is NOT an exception.
The lowest paid programmer I know is making close to $40,000 a year, average is probably about $55,000 a year and the best paid one I have met (just a programmer, not the head of a company) makes about $250,000 a year.
Obviously $250,000 a year is the exception, but $70,000 a year for a programmer with a few years experience in the right field is not uncommon at all.
It all depends on your field.
How many people in Carpentry do you think have jobs that require degrees?
Yet I know quite a few carpenters who made a damned good living.
Same goes for many fields.

If you want to see how bad things can get, look at any ghetto. In the average ghetto in the USA, thats exactly how it is. If you don't go to college and you don't join the military, you go to prison. This is why 40% of males in ghettos go to prison.


Do we have more than 210,000,000 people in the prison systems and prison?

When the world becomes more competitive, there will be more ghettos, and bigger ghettos, the options will decrease because there won't be any jobs for the uneducated. There already arent any jobs for the uneducated, why do you think people are selling drugs and resorting to crime? You think people do this for fun? Theres no jobs!

No one needs to hire an American programmer anymore, period, all programmers can be hired from India, or China, or South America, or Africa, there is not a single reason to hire an expensive lazy American programmer when you can hire a hard working minority in a foreign country for 1/4 the price. So you can hire 4 Indian programmers for the price of 1 American programmer, good luck trying to be a programmer. Also if it were so easy to be a programmer, why not take random kids off the street in America, kids living in ghettos, and hire them to be programmers?

Obviously because theres no shortage of programmers. Outsourcing made sure there will never be demand for programmers and there will always be unlimited supply. You need to read the world is flat, this is a much more competitive planet than it was when you grew up.

It does not matter what your field is, If you want to do carpentry, then you have to compete with illegal immigrants who will do it for cheaper. Why would anyone hire you, an expensive over priced American? Quality? These same people shop at Walmart.

When your neighborhood becomes a ghetto, it will be because people in your neighborhood did not get an education. When it becomes a ghetto, then you'll know what it's like to be around all the crime, and mafia, and gangs, and drugs, and then you'll become more competitive.

Maybe if you were born in the third world you'd understand why people there are killing themselves, sometimes literally, to get a degree.

I recognize not everyone will be smart enough to get a degree, these people still have options, they can join the military and work through that system.

I also recognize that some people don't have the money to get a degree, these people can also join the military.

But if you don't have a degree, and you don't choose a system other than college, like the military, prison is waiting for you, because theres no where for uneducated poor people to go, besides ghettos and prison. If you look at the world you'll see this.

"By the way, since you are a graduate student, what GPA is required for graduate school?

What is the process? ”

Sorry, I have no idea about what you are talking about.
At the end of school we have state exams in which you get A B C D or F,
various uni programs require various exams, so if you want to study English philology, you have to have a good mark at the English language, Latvian language and Latvian literature exams on finishing school.

ME = Yeah, this guys degree sure helped him answer your question LOL

"By the way, since you are a graduate student, what GPA is required for graduate school?

What is the process? ”

Sorry, I have no idea about what you are talking about.
At the end of school we have state exams in which you get A B C D or F,
various uni programs require various exams, so if you want to study English philology, you have to have a good mark at the English language, Latvian language and Latvian literature exams on finishing school.

ME = Yeah, this guys degree sure helped him answer your question LOL


Well, try to see it from the proper perspective. Humans exist on a hierarchy, civilians are ranked by their degrees, so a bachelors degree is like, an upper level civilian. Just like how the military has rank, and status, and you have officers.

I'm wondering, why would anyone not want status? I can understand not being greedy, not everyone wants money, but without status, people sometimes don't even treat you as human. Look at people with the least status and see how they are treated as compared to people with the most status.

I doubt anytime soon that there is going to be a huge shift, and a lot of jobs for the uneducated will be created, so it seems like it's a competition for survival.

I grew up in a very poor area (a ghetto, as you would call it).
Some people were lazy and sold drugs and resorted to other crimes for the fast buck.
Some people worked hard and got out.
Some people got a dgree and got out.
Some people got a degree and stayed in.
It all depends on the person, and how much they want to get out.

Tell me, what do you know about living in a "ghetto"?

Do you realize that in the "ghettos" people can make an excellent living doing skilled labor jobs?
I know quite a few union electricians who make about what I do.
I know quite a few drywallers, roofers, floor refinishers and installers and lots of other trades that make more than me (that means they are in the top 10% earners in the country).

As for all that about outsourcing and foreigners...
Does the same reasining apply if you have a degree?
Why wouldn't they hire a cheaper foreigner with a degree before they hired YOU?

I am no stranger to outsourcing and hiring immigrants.
I work in a technical field in corporate America.
Close to half my department is from India.
But you know what? They get paid about the same as the Americans.
Some have degrees and some don't.
What matters is that you can do your job well, and you are dedicated, not what nationality you are.
If you don't do your job well and are not dedicated, then you don't deserve the damned job.
All corporate dicks care about is bottom line and productivity.
If an Indian can do it, they will hire the Indian - if an American can do it, they will hire an American.
And yes, they outsource as well, but most of the people they hire are on-site.

As I said, depending on your field, a degree can make it easier for you, but to say that you only have those three choices is simply ignorant.

Different educational systems at different parts of the world, sderenzi, that's all.

Even in America every university - hell even different programs within one univerity has different standards.
What many of them rely on are your results from the GRE more than your GPA.
You have to check each school you are interested in to find out what they are looking for.

I would concur with your opinion however there also seem to be cultural differences I had not previously expected. For example to offset costs in Mexico families live together and never move out of home, this would seem alien to US citizens but there it's the norm. I find this method to be one that all Americans will eventually begin following, there simply is to much clutter and cost associated with living alone (with no family present). Add to that the fact pricing of homes is going up while people are paid less & less. What we see here is not a difference in those educated VS those uneducated, my father has 2 masters degrees and yet cannot find a job that suits him. The current dillema seems to be exactly what will keep people from having financial trouble when college itself causes much of the distress?

I'd say I agree with Ray Bradbury, when asked if he'd ever thought of going to college his reply was something like, "Yes, but then I realized I could goto the library and learn for free, that's when I decided not to."

If we each take a similar notion and realize the limitations of any system of education as being unique to the individual, well then we can begin fixing these concerns.

PS Wanna go out somebody :-!!!

Any way, what regards uni (college) the best thing that I think I've gotten and getting out of it is that I'm discovering how to better learn, acquire and use information.
I can do it now a lot quicker and more efficient and can apply the same methods to almost any field I can imagine.
Uni has also helped me with providing a ground for me to improve my way of thinking, methodologically planning the tasks I have to do.
The knowledge in law is just like an addition, a background of what I've mentioned.
So I've been intellectually very enjoying my studies, despite the sleepless nights and problems with some professors.

Most state schools in the US will cover part or all of a decent student's tuition if you are willing to be an adjunct professor and teach some classes.

I'm still living with my parents and so are a lot of my friends.
The housing prices in Latvia have gone insane and the gains of living alone are dwarfed by the gains I get from living with a family:
division of tasks, property taxes, money spent on household goods, a quick help if needed.
Besides in Latvia it's a normal and rational thing, nobody thinks that you should live separately just for the sake of living separately.
And I'm saving a lot of money in the process for my own projects.

I'm guessing that in the USA it's not like that because of your strong belief in individualism.

But it's not realistic to tell anyone that they can be successful by winning the lottery like you aparently have. You are lucky, period.
Right here in this thread there are two people who supposedly have hit the lottery. Isn't it more likely that we weren't lucky?

... if you want to guarentee success you need to follow the rules I highlighted.
You don't need to. If you work hard & smart in a field (regardless whether it requires a degree) that pays well for that, that's the best guarantee you'll get for financial success. A degree just opens the doors wider. Success depends mostly on what you do after you enter the door.

I can understand not being greedy, not everyone wants money, but without status, people sometimes don't even treat you as human.
If people with "status" are like that, then why would you want it? Few people are like that where I live.

Close to half my department is from India.
Same here.

All corporate dicks care about is bottom line and productivity.
If an Indian can do it, they will hire the Indian - if an American can do it, they will hire an American.
Agreed.

As I said, depending on your field, a degree can make it easier for you, but to say that you only have those three choices is simply ignorant.
Agreed. With college tuition rising about 8% annually, and more jobs going to immigrants, a degree may become less of a requirement if only because less people will be able to justify the cost.

Let's face it, the world is more competitive now than ever. Either you get smart or you die, thats how the world is. People who don't get an education end up homeless, they end up in prison, they end up dead.

so what's the point? competition will catch up with you and your degree somewhat later (but rather faster, if you are a programmer or an engineer, for example). People who get education end up homeless, in prison and dead too. One day you'll wake up and realize that younger hounds are passing you and your degree by. What's the point? Education (especially its modern kind) is not a solution, it's just a modified lottery and pacifier. You can win, you can lose. You'll be most likely disposed as you'll get older. Carpenter can win or lose without education. Just think,100K per degree, average career's life span is 7 years (and then getting educated and looking for a job again and again). Average schmuck with no degree can make $150K in 5 years or so that you'll spent on being educated. So if you are just an average career runner (with 7 years of life), you'll never catch up with that average 40K/year/no degree guy. You need to have above average luck to catch up, no matter what government statistics tell you. You shall not compare degreed folks to ghetto dwellers. Just compare yourself with equally intelligent non degree guy, if you know those.

I had a friend with a Ph.D. in biology, who (and her cancerous Ph.D. husband) were discarded from 45k/year postdoc positions in their middle 40th with no chances for anything but minimum wage (if they'll lie about their education). I still remember that woman telling about her 150k/no degree/food salesman brother. Just face it, there are many fields where education doesn't make any damn financial sense.

You do know the majority of that 80% are living in ghettos, or trailer parks right? The majority are NOT living in nice houses and being given great jobs.
I observe that the majority of people, in the US at least, don’t really want to succeed financially. Anybody who routinely buys stuff on high-interest credit cards doesn’t want to succeed, and that’s the majority. Those who really want to get out of a ghetto or trailer park can almost always do it, with or without college.

When society decides to rank, to see who is "better", as society seems to like to rank everyone, society currently ranks people by education, when you submit your resume, the first question they ask is what is your education.
This is true only for entry-level jobs, when you have little experience so they use education as a differentiator. Once you have some experience, experience becomes the primary differentiator and your education fades into the background. If you choose to skip college, you get the education from other sources, and then you tell the interviewer that you’re self-taught and that this shows you can succeed at their job too.

They don't care how "smart" you are, they want to know what proof you have of qualification so they can match it up with the other over-qualified people who want the job.
They do care how smart you are, that’s why they ask about your education. The interviewer is looking for the best person for the job. That isn’t necessarily the one with the best credentials.

Now, if you were a soldier or something, you can still have status, but if you are not a soldier, and you don't have a degree, people view you automatically as a bum in a lot of cases.
I don’t see how it’s worth a ton of money to placate such immature people.

There is a scene in Pirates of Silicon Valley where Steve Jobs harasses this interviewee for being a virgin - in the sense he hasn't become a real man, despite his credentials.

Well it's like that in the real world. Education goes only so far, it's not everything. You can spend your entire life worrying about what you have to do to achieve success, yet never achieve anything as a result of being so fearful. Or you can live with no fear, knowing the certainty of death and do incredible things.

You need to figure out for yourself what is necessary and what isn't.

[QUOTE=one_raven;1226010]I grew up in a very poor area (a ghetto, as you would call it).
Some people were lazy and sold drugs and resorted to other crimes for the fast buck.
Some people worked hard and got out.
Some people got a dgree and got out.
Some people got a degree and stayed in.
It all depends on the person, and how much they want to get out.


Tell me, what do you know about living in a "ghetto"?


I'm there now. I'm not rich or anything. I know enough to know that in ghettos theres no jobs for the uneducated, and this is why theres gangs, drug dealing and crime, robberies, poverty, homelessness, etc. Yeah some people are lazy but the vast majority are working harder selling drugs and avoiding prison, than they'd be working at a 9-5. Selling drugs is starting a business, thats never going to be easy. Fact, where I live now, if you have no degree the best place to work is Mc Donalds, and fast food. You'd have to work 2 or 3 of those jobs to survive and pay bills. You can forget about raising kids with one of those fast food jobs too. Also you will be lucky to have any healthcare. You will be lucky to have access to clean food and water. I don't see a lot of people thriving in the ghetto without either an education, or military service. I don't know anyone who is thriving while uneducated. People survive while uneducated, I know people who manage to survive, but they are not thriving, their lives are x10 harder than ordinary lives, they literally hustle and live from day to day creating jobs for themselves, or they can't survive. This is no way to raise children.

Do you realize that in the "ghettos" people can make an excellent living doing skilled labor jobs?

Who says every ghetto has unlimited skilled labor jobs? Do you realize theres a limited amount of skilled labor jobs, and that these jobs are often filled up by college students like me, and even college graduates? Sorry, but skilled labor requires either an education, or an open market. Usually the market is closed, people call their friends to fix their broken computer, and their friends are usually college students, not that homeless guy on the street who built robots as a hobby.


I know quite a few union electricians who make about what I do.
I know quite a few drywallers, roofers, floor refinishers and installers and lots of other trades that make more than me (that means they are in the top 10% earners in the country).

You do realize that unions have a lot less power now don't you? Have you heard of NAFTA? CAFTA? The Free Trade Agreements? Have you been tracking the laws? Unions and other trades are losing power, and also union workers cost more than illegal immigrants who do the same exact labor for cheaper.

As for all that about outsourcing and foreigners...
Does the same reasining apply if you have a degree?
Why wouldn't they hire a cheaper foreigner with a degree before they hired YOU?

They WILL hire a cheap labor over a quality or expensive labor with a degree. But at least I'll have the trade union job and skilled labor jobs. You don't seem to get it.

I am no stranger to outsourcing and hiring immigrants.
I work in a technical field in corporate America.
Close to half my department is from India.
But you know what? They get paid about the same as the Americans.
Some have degrees and some don't.

Thats bullshit. why the hell would anyone hire them if they get paid the same? That's not even rational, whoever hired them should be fired.

What matters is that you can do your job well, and you are dedicated, not what nationality you are.

I don't care what nationality you are, I view you all as potential competition.

If you don't do your job well and are not dedicated, then you don't deserve the damned job.

Correct, but why would we hire Indians? There is no evidence they do the job better, in fact people complain about how they do the job.

All corporate dicks care about is bottom line and productivity.
If an Indian can do it, they will hire the Indian - if an American can do it, they will hire an American.

I'm sure Americans can do it, they choose to hire Indians for political reasons, the USA is economic buddy with India. Mexico and Canada are right next door with plenty of labor, yet we hire Indians, it's irrational, so it must be emotional.

And yes, they outsource as well, but most of the people they hire are on-site.

As I said, depending on your field, a degree can make it easier for you, but to say that you only have those three choices is simply ignorant.

It's not ignorant when 40% of males in ghettos go to prison. Let's assume for a moment that in 20 years, most neighborhoods as ghettos, and operate like this, and 40% of males go to prison for whatever. Do you want to go to prison or go to college,? Go to prison or join the military? The prison population will only grow, until it's in the tens of millions or higher. We already have the highest prison population in the world with 2 million, it could be 20 million in 20 years. There is nothing to slow it down, and we keep building more prisons while creating less and less jobs for the uneducated.

I would concur with your opinion however there also seem to be cultural differences I had not previously expected. For example to offset costs in Mexico families live together and never move out of home, this would seem alien to US citizens but there it's the norm. I find this method to be one that all Americans will eventually begin following, there simply is to much clutter and cost associated with living alone (with no family present). Add to that the fact pricing of homes is going up while people are paid less & less. What we see here is not a difference in those educated VS those uneducated, my father has 2 masters degrees and yet cannot find a job that suits him. The current dillema seems to be exactly what will keep people from having financial trouble when college itself causes much of the distress?

I'd say I agree with Ray Bradbury, when asked if he'd ever thought of going to college his reply was something like, "Yes, but then I realized I could goto the library and learn for free, that's when I decided not to."

If we each take a similar notion and realize the limitations of any system of education as being unique to the individual, well then we can begin fixing these concerns.

PS Wanna go out somebody :-!!!


By the way, thats how people already live in America. It's stupid in my opinion to live alone in a house. I'm going to live with roomates forever, or until I marry one.

There is a scene in Pirates of Silicon Valley where Steve Jobs harasses this interviewee for being a virgin - in the sense he hasn't become a real man, despite his credentials.

Well it's like that in the real world. Education goes only so far, it's not everything. You can spend your entire life worrying about what you have to do to achieve success, yet never achieve anything as a result of being so fearful. Or you can live with no fear, knowing the certainty of death and do incredible things.

You need to figure out for yourself what is necessary and what isn't.

Steve Jobs and BIll Gates are the worst examples on how to achieve success.
Look at the statistics, people with degrees earn more money, it's a fact.

I don't think you get it

I'm there now.
There are maybe a million 19-year-olds without degrees living on their own in relatively nice towns. Why don’t you move out of the ghetto?

I’ve never understood this. I once visited Brooklyn, NY, which is not too bad but bad enough. Just half an hour away, elsewhere on Long Island, are cheaper places in nice suburbia. The people in Brooklyn choose to live the way they do. They could easily choose better at an overall lesser cost.

People survive while uneducated, I know people who manage to survive, but they are not thriving, their lives are x10 harder than ordinary lives, they literally hustle and live from day to day creating jobs for themselves, or they can't survive.
That’s because they live in a ghetto. Leave, don’t waste your time there. The lives of even the uneducated are far better elsewhere.

Correct, but why would we hire Indians? There is no evidence they do the job better, in fact people complain about how they do the job.
All other things being equal, they get hired over Americans because they get paid less while awaiting their green card, when they can’t switch employers without restarting their 5-year-long immigration process from scratch. The immigration process is akin to indentured servitude.

I'm sure Americans can do it, they choose to hire Indians for political reasons, the USA is economic buddy with India. Mexico and Canada are right next door with plenty of labor, yet we hire Indians, it's irrational, so it must be emotional.
No, it’s purely for monetary reasons.

Look at the statistics, people with degrees earn more money, it's a fact.
People who are predisposed to earning more money than others may be more likely to get a degree than others, rather than the degree leading to more money.

Look closely and you'll see all sorts of misleading stats like that. People living with partners have higher rates of alcoholism than married people do. That doesn't necessarily mean that getting married reduces your risk of being an alcoholic.

Brooklyn, Long Island, NJ around NYC all look like crowded hell holes, what keeps people there and more importantly what do they do there? Even places which are not run down are so crowded that can send you into a deep depression with their appearance. Plants are almost all closed and turned into warehouses dealing in goods of very shady origin. I felt sleaze with my skin walking in those places. People aren't very helpul either (some are quite on the edge) even though I've met remarkable exceptions.

Also, there are many people with money but without degree who get their degrees afterwards just to keep up with neighbors.

Right here in this thread there are two people who supposedly have hit the lottery. Isn't it more likely that we weren't lucky?


You don't need to. If you work hard & smart in a field (regardless whether it requires a degree) that pays well for that, that's the best guarantee you'll get for financial success. A degree just opens the doors wider. Success depends mostly on what you do after you enter the door.


If people with "status" are like that, then why would you want it? Few people are like that where I live.

2 people out of millions. Big deal.
when the majority hit the lottery I'll consider it believeable.

2 people out of millions. Big deal.
More like 2 people out of the 10 who posted here.

Don't take my word for it. Check out salaries on monster.com where it says something like "degree or equivalent experience required".

[QUOTE=dixonmassey;1226067]so what's the point? competition will catch up with you and your degree somewhat later (but rather faster, if you are a programmer or an engineer, for example). People who get education end up homeless, in prison and dead too.

It's very rare for an educated person with plenty of options to end up dead or in jail, but for an uneducated person with few options, the risks are much much higher. I'm not saying shit can't happen, it can happen to anyone, I'm just saying people who are less educated are more likely to live in high risk areas.


One day you'll wake up and realize that younger hounds are passing you and your degree by. What's the point?

No they won't, it takes 4 years to get a degree, I'd have a 4 year headstart on all of them, and if they start to surpass me, I'd go back for another 2 years. combined with experience, I'll be the one hiring these young fresh out of college kids if it goes right.

Education (especially its modern kind) is not a solution, it's just a modified lottery and pacifier.

It's part of a strategy for success. You will not be successful without a strategy. If you don't know what to do, go to school, if you don't have a lot of friends and connections, go to school.

You can win, you can lose. You'll be most likely disposed as you'll get older.

That's not really the case. You do realize you can get a masters in business admin, an MBA, which means you can be the one disposing of other people.You seem to think you can be in admin or in management without a degree, but thats why you need a degree. If you get a masters it's best to get an MBA.

Carpenter can win or lose without education. Just think,100K per degree, average career's life span is 7 years (and then getting educated and looking for a job again and again). Average schmuck with no degree can make $150K in 5 years or so that you'll spent on being educated.

With an MBA you can make $150,000 a year, and this is if you are entry level, you have people making $400,000 and even a million dollars a year.

So if you are just an average career runner (with 7 years of life), you'll never catch up with that average 40K/year/no degree guy.

Complete BS. With a degree you can start at 50-70k a year, and skip the 40k guy.

You need to have above average luck to catch up, no matter what government statistics tell you. You shall not compare degreed folks to ghetto dwellers. Just compare yourself with equally intelligent non degree guy, if you know those.

I compare myself to everyone. ghetto dwellers are human to, and have degrees too. I don't think intelligence is the key to success, it's how you apply it. A degree opens doors, period, it can get you hired in places where you can move up later. Jobs often pay you to get your MBA, do you know that?

An MBA can get you a $150k a year salary.

I had a friend with a Ph.D. in biology, who (and her cancerous Ph.D. husband) were discarded from 45k/year postdoc positions in their middle 40th with no chances for anything but minimum wage (if they'll lie about their education). I still remember that woman telling about her 150k/no degree/food salesman brother. Just face it, there are many fields where education doesn't make any damn financial sense.

She got a PHD in biology? There are plenty of biology jobs, it depends on what kind of biology. I would not have got a PHD in biology, I think if I were here I'd have got an MBA.

Tell me, whats wrong with getting an MBA? You are telling me a masters degree in Business won't help you? That's the best degree to get if you want to have job security.

More like 2 people out of the 10 who posted here.

Don't take my word for it. Check out salaries on monster.com where it says something like "degree or equivalent experience required".


You go to salary.com and check out the salaries on people who have MBAs and compare it to these degreeless folk.

If you want to have the sky as the limit you need a degree. You can be successful without a degree, you can have unlimited status without a degree, going into the military can give you status for example, but if you want financial security you need a masters degree in business.

With a masters degree in business, you'll be able to work for the finance industry, you might get hired to work for a hedge fund, these sorts of jobs are like dream jobs. You'd manage money, and deal with money, and if the economy does well, you'll be financially secure. You won't have to worry about losing your job, it's not the sorta job where there will be any reason to fire you, it's the finance industry so these industries basically sit on what seems like unlimited amounts of money. Go check salary.com and tell me how much a person in the finance industry makes entry level, go ahead.

Then compare how much they make, with the degreeless.

People who are predisposed to earning more money than others may be more likely to get a degree than others, rather than the degree leading to more money.


What does this mean? this is like saying people who are predisposed to earning more clean air than others, prefer to search for cleaner air. It makes no sense. I don't know what predisposed means, I don't view it like that. I view it as, status, it's also cultural, certain families require the degree, it's also that certain employees don't take you seriously without a degree, I don't think it has anything to do with predispositions, people do what they have to do to compete in the world.

It's very rare for an educated person with plenty of options to end up dead or in jail, but for an uneducated person with few options, the risks are much much higher. I can't get why do you think that college educated person has more options (meaning absolute number of possible jobs)? College education is a specialization to a certain extent. Specialization always means LESS options. College education also means that you are percieved as more expensive. therefore, certain not so degree critical jobs will be out of your reach under normal circumstances.

I'm not saying shit can't happen, it can happen to anyone, I'm just saying people who are less educated are more likely to live in high risk areas.
There is problem with logic here. One can't just simply connect education with income. If one can't earn a college diploma, could it mean that he's lacking mental capacity, health, drive, favorable life circumstances or will power in the first place. If so, his living in high risk areas is not a result of lacking of education but a result of lacking of something that is required to get that education (or more exactly professional training; that what modern education is) in the first place. Let's assume one can get an education even if he's lacking what it takes to get that education, how useful whould it be for his income? Unless you are GW, that degree would be just a waste in most of the cases.

No they won't, it takes 4 years to get a degree, I'd have a 4 year headstart on all of them, and if they start to surpass me, I'd go back for another 2 years. combined with experience, I'll be the one hiring these young fresh out of college kids if it goes right.
sadly, those kids will more likely fire you at some point. Age discrimination is not a joke. In some fields, like digital design, cut off age is ripe 35:). Also keep in mind that reeducating and looking for a job mean lost money, lost income, lost nerve cells. You must be mighty lucky to recuperate those loses in the next job.



It's part of a strategy for success. You will not be successful without a strategy. If you don't know what to do, go to school, if you don't have a lot of friends and connections, go to school. If you can't make formal friends and connections, don't bother to go to college. You'll have really hard time looking for a job. Because it's not about what you know....

You can win, you can lose. You'll be most likely disposed as you'll get older.

That's not really the case. You do realize you can get a masters in business admin, an MBA, which means you can be the one disposing of other people.You seem to think you can be in admin or in management without a degree, but thats why you need a degree. If you get a masters it's best to get an MBA.

Oh boy, can you imagine a pyramide? Every BS simply can't make an MBA, that's what hierarchy for - to keep many people at the bottom and few at the top. Good luck to you of course, if that's what you want go for it, but keep in mind that your MBA should be from top 20 business schools. If you just started your business without getting educated, your chances to hire a fresh MBA as a CFO of your company, would be just about the same as you being admitted to those top 20 schools.

With an MBA you can make $150,000 a year, and this is if you are entry level, you have people making $400,000 and even a million dollars a year. Yes, you can. what are the chances? On the other hand, 40k/year uneducated schmuck have great chances make more $ per life time (if that's what he wants) than average, repeat average, college degree holder. Besides, to become a successful executive you must have (or fake) certain personality. Sometimes I think those people are made on an assembly line, they are so alike.

So if you are just an average career runner (with 7 years of life), you'll never catch up with that average 40K/year/no degree guy.

Complete BS. With a degree you can start at 50-70k a year, and skip the 40k guy.
Yes, you can start at 50-70k, but that's rather rare, or you can start at 18k-28k per year with masters, that's not so rare considering the number of junior and community colleges hiring&living on such desperates. Ever asked how much an adjunct professor, who teaches you, makes. Just get curious, you might learn something. Again, it's all about your luck. If you are sellable enough to grab 70k job fresh out of a state college, you most likely would be able to make about the same money without a college degree.


She got a PHD in biology? There are plenty of biology jobs, it depends on what kind of biology.
that's not true at all, especially if you are about to hit big 5 zero.


Tell me, whats wrong with getting an MBA? You are telling me a masters degree in Business won't help you? That's the best degree to get if you want to have job security.

Nothing wrong, if you'll be admitted to top 20 schools. That's rather difficult, but if that's what you want.... On the other hand, if you would invest time and money spent on getting educated on your private business you could make larger jack pot.

With a masters degree in business, you'll be able to work for the finance industry, you might get hired to work for a hedge fund, these sorts of jobs are like dream jobs. You'd manage money, and deal with money, and if the economy does well, you'll be financially secure.
Sure, a degree can open the door to some very high paying careers. You might as well throw Fortune 500 exec into that that list of dream jobs; then the sky's the limit. All I said is that you don't need a degree to succeed financially.

I view it as, status, it's also cultural, certain families require the degree, it's also that certain employees don't take you seriously without a degree, I don't think it has anything to do with predispositions, people do what they have to do to compete in the world.
Status is not a factor in my financial outlook; I couldn't care less. It's okay if you do. Certain employers care about a degree, but there's plenty for those without a degree to work at, while saving the cost of college.

What does this mean? this is like saying people who are predisposed to earning more clean air than others, prefer to search for cleaner air. It makes no sense.
Dixon put it better than I could above, starting with "There is problem with logic here." If you want to be financially successful, it behooves you to learn to think like this. If smokers are more likely to be gamblers than non-smokers, does that mean you are more likely to become a gambler if you start smoking than if you never start? Probably not. More likely smokers have a tendency to gamble more than non-smokers do, or gamblers have a tendency to smoke more than non-gamblers do, with neither causing the other. Likewise, it's more likely that people who get degrees tend to want to live in the nicer places more than those who don't, and "getting a degree" does not cause "living in a nicer place".

You'd be surprised.
Heh. My employer asked me to send them my degree certificate.

No, there are not plenty of jobs if you have a biology career.

basically it is ridiculous that so many biology PhDs are trained (and every year more, because it is easy to create PhD positions - relatively cheap) while there are no career perspectives.

You can see this on many levels. Most people drop out of biology after getting their masters. Then most once again drop out during their PhD or after. Some go on to do a few years of posdoctoral research like me, but this won't last. In 3-7 years you will have to find some kind of other position. Groupleader is one option. However, very few positions are available and at the moment in our institute we see what happens to groupleaders. Basically they can easily get 5 years of funding, but after that it is over. No way to get more funding except for a very very very few of them. They have their 5 years, of which several years are used to build the group and then they are kicked out.

That leaves biotechnology. In Finland there are absolutely NO jobs for PhDs. All biotechnology companies that have started in the last 10 years have gone bankrupt. Some are clinging on but not interested in PhDs. No pliable enough.

Most biotech companies basically end up being distributors of distributors. The people they hire are basically bible salespeople.

Why do I do it?

you are at the forefront of science. You can't put a price on that. I know I have at the most 3 years left at 20k (euros) a year and then I will probably end up in some menial joband ironically I will probably end up earning more after a few years of doing that.

Hence my best friend and have started to think about starting a business. Obviously not a biotech business. That would just be a recipe for disaster. You need huge investment with maximum risk of any return.

TimeTraveler,
An MBA is not a golden ticket.
You would be amazed at how may people I know who hold an MBA and can't get a decent job.
They thought, like you did, that an MBA will set them up with an instant $70,000/yr job and security.
MBA's are a dime a dozen - unless you graduated at the top of your class from a top-notch program.
An MBA is nothing without proper experience, mindset, connections and personality.
It is something additional you have to offer, aside from your REAL skills - if you have them.
Even if you do have real skills, it is still pot luck.
By the way, Coprorate Executives have one of the worst job security track records for professionals, and it is getting worse every year - which is why I will not likely try to move up any further.
As soon as the company starts losing money, there is a shake up - and yes, people on the bottom do get laid off, but not only are execs not immune to that, they ALWAYS need a scapegoat.

If you want job security, you do not want an MBA (unless you have an MBA AND another degree) what you need to do is offer people something that not everyone else can offer them - like I said, MBA's are a dime-a-dozen because so many people have jumped on the MBA bandwagon AND they have very few real-world skills to offer.

Once you work in Corporate America for a little while, you will understand.

You would be amazed at how may people I know who hold an MBA and can't get a decent job.
They thought, like you did, that an MBA will set them up with an instant $70,000/yr job and security.
A friend of mine has an MBA and a Master's in computer science. His job wasn't any more secure than mine (no degree). He got laid off a few times. Nor did he get paid more than me.

Doing a degree just proves that you can learn, you have some brains and you can commit to something over a long time, financially and personally.

Obviously some careers require you to learn the trade - doctors, surgeons, etc.

Education is free here, so I could probably get away with spending £2k a year on transport, books, trips, living with the parents.

I can't get why do you think that college educated person has more options (meaning absolute number of possible jobs)? College education is a specialization to a certain extent. Specialization always means LESS options.

It means less competition.


College education also means that you are percieved as more expensive. therefore, certain not so degree critical jobs will be out of your reach under normal circumstances.

It means less options for employers, and less competition for you.


There is problem with logic here. One can't just simply connect education with income. If one can't earn a college diploma, could it mean that he's lacking mental capacity, health, drive, favorable life circumstances or will power in the first place. If so, his living in high risk areas is not a result of lacking of education but a result of lacking of something that is required to get that education (or more exactly professional training; that what modern education is) in the first place.

If everyone were educated then I'd have to do even more to rise above the rest to be in the top 10%. It's not like I can be satisfied in the bottom 90%, just like you as an American cannot be satisfied being in the bottom 90% of the world.

As Americans, and as part of American culture and tradition, we have to be the best we can, and this means the smartest, most educated, hardest working, strongest willed, most creative, innovative, and all around best people or persons on the earth. We Americans don't settle for less, and our capitalist system does not allow us to.


Let's assume one can get an education even if he's lacking what it takes to get that education, how useful whould it be for his income? Unless you are GW, that degree would be just a waste in most of the cases.

How exactly can you get an education while lacking what it takes to get one? Explain this?


sadly, those kids will more likely fire you at some point. Age discrimination is not a joke. In some fields, like digital design, cut off age is ripe 35:). Also keep in mind that reeducating and looking for a job mean lost money, lost income, lost nerve cells. You must be mighty lucky to recuperate those loses in the next job.


This is why people have to constantly create advantages for themselves. You have to fight to keep your edge the older you get. It's not easy. There is always a way, someone will figure out the key to success, and then you can try and do the same if you are capable, and if you arent capable then you have to create your own key to success. The point is, you have to aim for success always.


If you can't make formal friends and connections, don't bother to go to college. You'll have really hard time looking for a job. Because it's not about what you know....


I know that. You can make friends outside of college you know, it's not like college is the only place, or even the best place to make friends. College is just one of many. The simple fact is, yes it's who you know. You can make your friends in college, or outside of college.

I'm not in college to make friends, it's nice to make friends, but thats not why I'm there. I'm in college to get a degree. I can make friends anywhere, I can only get a degree from a university. I understand that friendship is the most important accomplishment in life, more important than everything else, but it's better to have a degree and friends, than to have neither.


Oh boy, can you imagine a pyramide? Every BS simply can't make an MBA, that's what hierarchy for - to keep many people at the bottom and few at the top. Good luck to you of course, if that's what you want go for it, but keep in mind that your MBA should be from top 20 business schools. If you just started your business without getting educated, your chances to hire a fresh MBA as a CFO of your company, would be just about the same as you being admitted to those top 20 schools.

I never said you have to be an elite MBA from a top school. You just need to be an MBA in most cases, someone will definately hire you. In some cases you don't even have to be an MBA, a lot of people work in business and arent MBAs, it's just with an MBA you can demand a higher salary.

Yes, you can. what are the chances? On the other hand, 40k/year uneducated schmuck have great chances make more $ per life time (if that's what he wants) than average, repeat average, college degree holder. Besides, to become a successful executive you must have (or fake) certain personality.

Thats completely bullshit. In the tech companies, you have people who are just like us, up at the top, they don't have one personality type. Yes you have to be intelligent, but you don't need a specific personality to be in business admin, just a lot of ambition.

Sure if you want to be as successful as Bill Gates you do need a specific personaltiy, but most small businesses are not run by people like Bill Gates, and I would not want to work for a business that has CEOs and upper level personalities that I can't stand.




Sometimes I think those people are made on an assembly line, they are so alike.

Thats because people like you won't get your degree and MBA and try to work in business.



Yes, you can start at 50-70k, but that's rather rare, or you can start at 18k-28k per year with masters, that's not so rare

You won't start at 18-28k with a masters degree, thats bullshit. Masters degree can get you 50k from the start, and thats on the low end.

considering the number of junior and community colleges hiring&living on such desperates. Ever asked how much an adjunct professor, who teaches you, makes. Just get curious, you might learn something. Again, it's all about your luck. If you are sellable enough to grab 70k job fresh out of a state college, you most likely would be able to make about the same money without a college degree.

Professors choose not to make a lot of money. They are professors. It's not like thats the only thing they could be doing, they just chose to be professors.


Nothing wrong, if you'll be admitted to top 20 schools. That's rather difficult, but if that's what you want.... On the other hand, if you would invest time and money spent on getting educated on your private business you could make larger jack pot.

A degree is to get you an interview. A degree is a so you can have an edge over someone without a degree and the same skills.

TimeTraveler,
An MBA is not a golden ticket.
You would be amazed at how may people I know who hold an MBA and can't get a decent job.
They thought, like you did, that an MBA will set them up with an instant $70,000/yr job and security.
MBA's are a dime a dozen - unless you graduated at the top of your class from a top-notch program.
An MBA is nothing without proper experience, mindset, connections and personality.
It is something additional you have to offer, aside from your REAL skills - if you have them.
Even if you do have real skills, it is still pot luck.
By the way, Coprorate Executives have one of the worst job security track records for professionals, and it is getting worse every year - which is why I will not likely try to move up any further.
As soon as the company starts losing money, there is a shake up - and yes, people on the bottom do get laid off, but not only are execs not immune to that, they ALWAYS need a scapegoat.

If you want job security, you do not want an MBA (unless you have an MBA AND another degree) what you need to do is offer people something that not everyone else can offer them - like I said, MBA's are a dime-a-dozen because so many people have jumped on the MBA bandwagon AND they have very few real-world skills to offer.

Once you work in Corporate America for a little while, you will understand.

MBA is the best you can have for job security. Face it, if you work in corporate America, I'm not talking about big business here, I'm talking about small business.

Laid off? That's unlikely, but it depends on which business you work for doesnt it. The fact is, you'll have more job security with an MBA as a corporate exec, than you'd have working at Walmart or 711.

Look at this here

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-12-05T131229Z_01_L05333100_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-WEALTH-SURVEY-COL.XML

Status is not a factor in my financial outlook; I couldn't care less. It's okay if you do. Certain employers care about a degree, but there's plenty for those without a degree to work at, while saving the cost of college.


Yeah whatever, if that were true I wouldn't have a reason to be in college. No one is offering me a 40k a year job with benefits without a degree, and no ones going to offer me that until I have a degree.

Just because you say it's possible to be successful without an education it does not mean it's likely. Get as much education as you possibly can, get as many degrees as you can afford, and then you'll have better options.

I think degreeless people, have less options, regardless of what you want to say about how Bill Gates did this or that, the average person without a degree is living in a trailer, working for Walmart, or some other place.

It means less competition.

[QUOTE]It means less options for employers, and less competition for you. I'm afraid you are grossly misimformed about lesser competition among degree holders. It's not true, the more educated you'll get, the more competition you'll face, since there is always less place on the top. By your logic Ph.D.s would have the easiest time finding a job. But, au contre, some of them look for a job >1 year, if lucky. Many of them will be able to find a sorta permanent job only 2-5 years after graduation. What is the average job search time, 3-4 weeks? Can you feel the difference between 1 year and 3-4 weeks?



If everyone were educated then I'd have to do even more to rise above the rest to be in the top 10%. It's not like I can be satisfied in the bottom 90%, just like you as an American cannot be satisfied being in the bottom 90% of the world.
You mean financial bottom 90% of course. Since no other than net worth criteria of successful life exist. Good luck.

As Americans, and as part of American culture and tradition, we have to be the best we can, and this means the smartest, most educated, hardest working, strongest willed, most creative, innovative, and all around best people or persons on the earth. We Americans don't settle for less, and our capitalist system does not allow us to.
I don't want to disappoint you but USA is not #1 in many areas. Also, it's #1 in some not so desirable nominations, like already mentioned, absolute number of people on Prosac.


How exactly can you get an education while lacking what it takes to get one? Explain this?
What if you'll study for 5 years and quit 0.5 credits away from graduation? Will you be educated? From a bean counting HR person, who most likely has an MBA (that what you'll be taught - bean counting), you'll not be quite as educated as a person who's bought, forged, got by mistake, etc. a diploma. That what I mean.

This is why people have to constantly create advantages for themselves. You have to fight to keep your edge the older you get.
Sorry man, MBAs in charge of HR will have little clue about what you are doing and what is your edge, they will have just (unofficial) guidance to get rid of old, expensive farts in one way or another. Their job will depend on whether they will get rid of you (and likes) or not. I wouldn't bet on you even though chance is always there, you can even win a lottery.


It's not easy. There is always a way, someone will figure out the key to success, and then you can try and do the same if you are capable, and if you arent capable then you have to create your own key to success. The point is, you have to aim for success always.
Naive, if that would be true everybody would be $1mil a year executive. Somebody needs to work so you could succeed, remember about that.

I know that. You can make friends outside of college you know, it's not like college is the only place, or even the best place to make friends. College is just one of many. The simple fact is, yes it's who you know. You can make your friends in college, or outside of college.
To the hell with friends, make girlfriends.
After college, you'll never have a chance to meet so many pretty girls in one place.


I never said you have to be an elite MBA from a top school. You just need to be an MBA in most cases, someone will definately hire you. In some cases you don't even have to be an MBA, a lot of people work in business and arent MBAs, it's just with an MBA you can demand a higher salary. That's what I've heard. It must be an MBA from top 20 or none. You may check this claim. If sci. forums will be around in 4-7 years or so, write us, if that claim is wrong.



Thats completely bullshit. In the tech companies, you have people who are just like us, up at the top, they don't have one personality type. Yes you have to be intelligent, but you don't need a specific personality to be in business admin, just a lot of ambition.
You'll live you'll see that there are certain common personality features shared by lots of folks on top (especially if they have an MBA, that's what is education for.).


You won't start at 18-28k with a masters degree, thats bullshit. Masters degree can get you 50k from the start, and thats on the low end.
Dear, 25% or so of fresh Ph.Ds start at 25-30k a year. And I did see an ad for a math instructor (with masters) promising 18k a year. More exactly , somebody posted it on google group sci.research.careers.


Professors choose not to make a lot of money. They are professors. It's not like thats the only thing they could be doing, they just chose to be professors.
Really, OK imagine all professors quit colleges what they are going to do? Even McDs will not hire them. Lemme guess there are plenty of jobs for them out there:) I do realize professors didn't expect to make a fortune. But desperates who stuck as adjuncts or lecturers, etc. didn't expect to make janitorial salaries either.

Yeah whatever, if that were true I wouldn't have a reason to be in college. No one is offering me a 40k a year job with benefits without a degree, and no ones going to offer me that until I have a degree.
Schneider national will gladly train you for free (incluiding $1000 in pocket expenses during 3 weeks of a truck driving school), a newbie driver with zero experience averages something like 40k/years. With 3-5 years behind your back it's 65k (at other companies). Yeah, benefits included. Job is a bitch though, but some people like it. At the same time recomended salary for a postdoc with Ph.Dl is 25k a year (no benefits), some people spend 5-10 years postdocing. Can they catch up with a truck driver? Some can, of course. But on the average, it's going to be a tie in the best case.

Just because you say it's possible to be successful without an education it does not mean it's likely. Get as much education as you possibly can, get as many degrees as you can afford, and then you'll have better options. Another story from sci.research.careers for you. A woman, IQ180 something, 3 master degrees couldn't find any freaking job for 2 years until somebody published a paper about her. Nobody uses a golden plate when paper plate is all what's needed. Remember about that.

Just because you say it's possible to be successful without an education it does not mean it's likely.
True. Depending on the field, those without a degree may have to be more competitive than those with a degree. And of course some fields will be closed.

Get as much education as you possibly can, get as many degrees as you can afford, and then you'll have better options.
I agree with other posters here that there is such a thing as too much education. For many if not most positions that require a degree, a person with an MBA will have less chance of getting it, because the employer will feel that this person will be unsatisfied with the same pay as for someone without an MBA, and that's all the job pays. Unless you are determined to have a position that requires an MBA, don't hurt yourself by getting one.

And for any degree, one should do a cost / benefit analysis. Is it worth $100K, which can be $300K including interest & lost opportunity costs, just to have better options, when you still have lots of options without spending that money?

I think degreeless people, have less options, regardless of what you want to say about how Bill Gates did this or that, the average person without a degree is living in a trailer, working for Walmart, or some other place.
Yes they have less options, but still lots of options. I observe that those without a degree who make peanuts are simply not motivated to do better. They choose to make peanuts; the lack of a degree isn't what holds them back.

Seems "law office study" is all that's required in my state: Permitted Means of Legal Study (Bar Exam) (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:fPloeva3DBwJ:www.abanet.org/legaled/publications/compguide2005/chart3.pdf+degree+required+bar+exam&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5). Class action lawsuits here I come!
Hey! I wanna join you on that one! :D

:m:



EDIT: Actually, do you know if that's possible in Canada....?

Is College Necessary?
No. Do a cost-benefit analysys and you will quickly find out that it is largely a waste of money, unless you are unable to be self-employed. Some people really are, but I believe most people could learn to work by themselves...


Think about tuition fees. If you can afford them, that makes college education a little bit more desirable. However, it looks like most people can't. So they get debts- and they are often quite big. Then, after you get the degree, you have lots of debts to pay, but your increase in income is usually barely worth it. All you need to do is to compare the income you can get with an education with the cost of education, and you will get the answer.

The only people who do not need college are those with exceptional intemigance(sp).

Almost invariably, the people who most loudly proclaim "I don't need no book learnin'!" are the ones who ain't got none.

Go figure.

Almost invariably, the people who most loudly proclaim "I don't need no book learnin'!" are the ones who ain't got none.

Go figure.

I figure they've a right to be entitled to know their own need, and to know it better than James R does.

They're the ones who have to live with it.

Almost invariably, the people who most loudly proclaim "I don't need no book learnin'!" are the ones who ain't got none.
It seems the question here is whether one can learn from the texts on their own and still get a decent job.

I'm afraid you are grossly misimformed about lesser competition among degree holders. It's not true, the more educated you'll get, the more competition you'll face, since there is always less place on the top. By your logic Ph.D.s would have the easiest time finding a job.

It certainly helps to have a masters degree or PHD. You seem to think that it's better to not have a degree at all, it's better to be over educated than under educated, because at least when you are over educated people respect you.


But, au contre, some of them look for a job >1 year, if lucky. Many of them will be able to find a sorta permanent job only 2-5 years after graduation. What is the average job search time, 3-4 weeks? Can you feel the difference between 1 year and 3-4 weeks?

You only promote dropping out and being uneducated because you don't want Americans to be competitive with the Indians and Chinese who are going to be over-educating themselves. Sorry but I see the global perspective, and you have to be as educated as possible to survive in this world. I say stay in school as long as you can afford to. If the government were to make college free, I'd get a PHD, and if I couldnt get a job after that, I'd get a second PHD. The costs are what prevent Americans from having multiple bachelors, masters or PHDs.


You mean financial bottom 90% of course. Since no other than net worth criteria of successful life exist. Good luck.

No, you want to be in the top 10%.



I don't want to disappoint you but USA is not #1 in many areas. Also, it's #1 in some not so desirable nominations, like already mentioned, absolute number of people on Prosac.

Shouldnt we want to be #1?


What if you'll study for 5 years and quit 0.5 credits away from graduation? Will you be educated? From a bean counting HR person, who most likely has an MBA (that what you'll be taught - bean counting), you'll not be quite as educated as a person who's bought, forged, got by mistake, etc. a diploma. That what I mean.

What the hell? How can you get a diploma by mistake? all degrees are bought, but you still have to work to get one, it's not free for anyone.



Sorry man, MBAs in charge of HR will have little clue about what you are doing and what is your edge, they will have just (unofficial) guidance to get rid of old, expensive farts in one way or another. Their job will depend on whether they will get rid of you (and likes) or not. I wouldn't bet on you even though chance is always there, you can even win a lottery.

So what are you advocating here? That people join the military in mass? Maybe we need a draft because obviously, college is worthless, lets draft ourselves into military service and make everyone useful.


Naive, if that would be true everybody would be $1mil a year executive. Somebody needs to work so you could succeed, remember about that.

I didn't say everyone will be a million dollar a year exec. I said that everyone can work hard and have a chance to be an exec.


To the hell with friends, make girlfriends.
After college, you'll never have a chance to meet so many pretty girls in one place.

Thats absolute uttery and complete bullshit. You are revealing your weaknesses just by making a comment like that. First, define pretty, because pretty women are everywhere and theres no shortage of them. Second, most pretty women are not girlfriend material, and it does not matter if you are in college, or at a casino gambling.

There is no one place to meet women, that much is clear. College is no better, it's a place, but it's not the best place or the only place. Your chance of meeting a good woman is not any higher at college campuses than off campus. I know because I'm actually in college and it's filled with average to sub-par females, and males, and thats because, just having intelligence does not make a person a good partner, a good girlfriend or boyfriend, and it does not mean they have emotional intelligence.

So I take your statement that college being the best place to meet females, as a comment of inexperience. How many successful relationships have you seen occur in college? Sure it's possible, but it's no more likely than anywhere else. And intelligence while important, is not going to be found only in college, as some people are intelligent but never go to college.


That's what I've heard. It must be an MBA from top 20 or none. You may check this claim. If sci. forums will be around in 4-7 years or so, write us, if that claim is wrong.

It's not true. Sure top 20 helps, but it's not like every corporation can afford a top 20 MBA.


You'll live you'll see that there are certain common personality features shared by lots of folks on top (especially if they have an MBA, that's what is education for.).


People with similar personalities work better together, but it's not like all corporations function in the same way, and are run by the same personality.

You seem to think every corporation has the same CEO and same corporate culture.


Dear, 25% or so of fresh Ph.Ds start at 25-30k a year. And I did see an ad for a math instructor (with masters) promising 18k a year. More exactly , somebody posted it on google group sci.research.careers.

A math PHD could be working at Google, a math PHD could be working on quantum cryptography, or anything else. You seem to think there aren't jobs, but theres more jobs for people with PHDs than for people without a degree at all. DO you want work at Mc Donalds or have a PHd?

Really, OK imagine all professors quit colleges what they are going to do? Even McDs will not hire them. Lemme guess there are plenty of jobs for them out there:) I do realize professors didn't expect to make a fortune. But desperates who stuck as adjuncts or lecturers, etc. didn't expect to make janitorial salaries either.

Most PHds are not professors, yeah a lot become professors, but thats a choice. If you have a Phd, you have the freedom to create your own job. Simply have a bunch of friends who have PHds also, and start a non profit, apply for a grant, and do some important research.

You know, i'm an aerospace engineering major, sophmore, made the dean's list last semester, and let me tell you, I have had the opportunity to build a composite remote control aircraft, to get valuble advice from some of the most skilled minds of the aerospace industry, and there is no way I could ever have access to resources and opportunities like these if I hadn't gone to college. If you just coast through college, yeah, you're wasting some good cash, but if you become active, find what you love to do and run with it, and nail jobs that pretty much only hire you if you've been successful, it's some of the best money you'll ever spend.

By the way, college can still be fun without throwing money away on fraternities, in fact, I find the freedom of not being tied to the hip to the greek system very awesome. When I need to, I can buckle down and focus on my studies, and when I can, I can go out and screw around, I'm not forced against my will to do "formals" and head up the homecomming commitee or whatever else frats and sororities do. I left that BS in high school and I'd rather start my own fun than engage in that.

So, if you have a passion, and you want the best training available, go to college, work hard, make your own fun and live your own life, and college is worth it.

Pardon me for getting a tad mellow-dramatic there, but it's finals week and my head is mildly barbequed.

It certainly helps to have a masters degree or PHD. You seem to think that it's better to not have a degree at all, it's better to be over educated than under educated, because at least when you are over educated people respect you. Depends. It helps some, some curse the day they've enrolled in a Ph.D. program. I just to want you to try to percieve the reality in all its complexity because you claim education is almost the only way to happiness. Yes, for some people it's better not to waste time on a degree. Besides, education is not necessarily - formal education. Let's assume you've hit hard times (I know, this will never happen to you), cant find a job but need to eat somehow right now, no time to waste. The first thing you'll do - lie about your education to get hired to do some menial job (that's either lie or starve case), the second thing you'll do - keep your mouth shut about your education, or you'll verify what kind of respect your coworkers will have for it. You might be surprised to find out that nobody likes losers, no matter their educational level.


You only promote dropping out and being uneducated because you don't want Americans to be competitive with the Indians and Chinese who are going to be over-educating themselves.
Nope, I promote people getting Ph.D.s, etc., if that's what they want to do, not because of some governmental crooked data showing big bucks rolling in after graduation. Also, I promote being aware of all possible repercussions of such a choice, both good and bad.

Sorry but I see the global perspective, and you have to be as educated as possible to survive in this world.
Again, you simply refuse to notice reality of the work world. Have you ever thought about magnitude of ratio waitresses/top paid engineers? Do you think that if 100% will be "educated" that ratio will change? Actually, you think that education will help you to win in a rat race, that's all your motivations and concerns. But guess what every other kid thinks the same. And what if 100% people will think the same?

I say stay in school as long as you can afford to. If the government were to make college free, I'd get a PHD, and if I couldnt get a job after that, I'd get a second PHD. The costs are what prevent Americans from having multiple bachelors, masters or PHDs.
If you'll get a second Ph.D. self-employment or lying on resume will be your the only two options. One Ph.D. is tough, two Ph.D.s is a kiss of employment death. You see, corporations want to see eagerness to work, they don't wat to see 35 y.o. balding kid with two Ph.D.s and no experience. Good luck in educating yourself under bridge. Besides, be aware that Ph.D.s usually are never hired outside of labs and research centers. CEO with a Ph.D., name me few:)?Corporate America has huge prejustice against this kind of education.


Shouldnt we want to be #1?
That's not the only possible life phylosophy. There is nothing divine about being #1.


What the hell? How can you get a diploma by mistake? all degrees are bought, but you still have to work to get one, it's not free for anyone.
You can even pay for such a mistake. There are all kinds of universities out there, a degree in two weeks is possible. Besides, mistakes are possible too and what if you share name with someone, getting somebody's SS# is not a big problem? There all kinds of possibilities :)

So what are you advocating here? That people join the military in mass? Maybe we need a draft because obviously, college is worthless, lets draft ourselves into military service and make everyone useful.
I'm advocating the criminal thought that formal education is not an answer to our problems, it just became a powerful crowd controll tool in the hands of mighty ones. Rat race accelerator and elite protector. Isn't that education you are getting supposed to teach you some scritical thinking?

I didn't say everyone will be a million dollar a year exec. I said that everyone can work hard and have a chance to be an exec.
No man, chance is everywhere even on death row. There is a chance that green men will liberate Sadam. Working hard increases your chance only if somebody else is working hard in not so lucrative field. Think systematically.


Thats absolute uttery and complete bullshit. You are revealing your weaknesses just by making a comment like that. First, define pretty, because pretty women are everywhere and theres no shortage of them.

Well, man you are still young, you don't understand how lucky your college years are. Pretty girls (there is no standard for prettiness) are everywhere, but they kind of dispersed. I don't tell you to look for a wife or a long term at a campus. I didnt' say to "meet", I clearly said "see", even if you have prejustice against college girls, and don't want to have anything in common with them, just look at them, because in your future cubicle and commute there will be none to look at.


It's not true. Sure top 20 helps, but it's not like every corporation can afford a top 20 MBA.
Chances are that if they can't afford a top 20 MBA, they can't afford to pay you enough to make all that top105 MBA trouble and tuition worth it. MBA costs lots of $, you know it, don't you.


You seem to think every corporation has the same CEO and same corporate culture.
There is certain MBA culture, top dogs look a lot the same independently of culture.


A math PHD could be working at Google, a math PHD could be working on quantum cryptography, or anything else. You seem to think there aren't jobs, but theres more jobs for people with PHDs than for people without a degree at all. DO you want work at Mc Donalds or have a PHd? Gee man, I guess all those people who could just find stinking 25k postdoc are stupid and ignore those abundant opportunities. I'll start sending out emails tomorow to let some know.


Most PHds are not professors, yeah a lot become professors, but thats a choice. If you have a Phd, you have the freedom to create your own job.
If you are nobody under bridge, you have the freedom to create your own job. If you are a professor, you need to get hired somewhere first (as a professor or something like that) to have a shot at those grants. And that's not easy. Sure, you can try venture capitalists if you have head full of ideas, but again to get those ideas one usually needs to work in the related field somehow.

imply have a bunch of friends who have PHds also, and start a non profit, apply for a grant, and do some important research
That depend's on your field. One thing to study breatfeeding preferences of welfare moms, studying burst of a supernova is hard to imagine at nonprofits.

To summarize, I don't say that college or Ph.D.s are worthless, you can win mighty big. but there are lots of buts, which turn a silver supereducation bullet to success into just another boring way to get somehow by.

[QUOTE=dixonmassey;1229137]Depends. It helps some, some curse the day they've enrolled in a Ph.D. program. I just to want you to try to percieve the reality in all its complexity because you claim education is almost the only way to happiness. Yes, for some people it's better not to waste time on a degree. Besides, education is not necessarily - formal education. Let's assume you've hit hard times (I know, this will never happen to you), cant find a job but need to eat somehow right now, no time to waste. The first thing you'll do - lie about your education to get hired to do some menial job (that's either lie or starve case), the second thing you'll do - keep your mouth shut about your education, or you'll verify what kind of respect your coworkers will have for it. You might be surprised to find out that nobody likes losers, no matter their educational level.

A loser is usually defined as a person who is uneducated and or who is not trying to be successful. Most people are losers due ot lack of ambition.


Nope, I promote people getting Ph.D.s, etc., if that's what they want to do, not because of some governmental crooked data showing big bucks rolling in after graduation. Also, I promote being aware of all possible repercussions of such a choice, both good and bad.

People do what they have to do to survive.

Again, you simply refuse to notice reality of the work world. Have you ever thought about magnitude of ratio waitresses/top paid engineers? Do you think that if 100% will be "educated" that ratio will change?

You don't get it. Sometimes an education is the only thing that seperates you from them. There are many paths to success, like I said before perhaps a return of the draft is an option. I'd rather people who are desperate for work, do some type of service, either community, or military, than be bums, thugs, or work at Walmart. Some people only have McDonalds to choose from, or drug dealing, because those are the only two employers hiring in their neighborhood. These people often join the military because they are desperate, these people may not go to college, but they are successful through military service. I mentioned the military as an option, as a path to success.

The point is, if people do not have paths to success, they will resort to crime, because a lot of people are unwilling to accept failure.

Actually, you think that education will help you to win in a rat race, that's all your motivations and concerns. But guess what every other kid thinks the same. And what if 100% people will think the same?

Then you do education and military service to win the rat race. Even if everyone had a degree there would be other ways to level up. The point is that in order to win, you have to always level up.

If you'll get a second Ph.D. self-employment or lying on resume will be your the only two options.

Yeah and whats wrong with self employement when, because of your degree you can get millions of dollars of startup cash just based on your qualifications? Whats wrong with being a consultant?

One Ph.D. is tough, two Ph.D.s is a kiss of employment death.

I can't believe anyone could be so stupid as to think it's possible to be too educated. Yeah it's got it's drawbacks but I don't know anyone with two Phds who is not successful.

You see, corporations want to see eagerness to work, they don't wat to see 35 y.o. balding kid with two Ph.D.s and no experience.

Corporations don't only care about experience, because many many people have experience. It's more complicated than just experience.

Good luck in educating yourself under bridge. Besides, be aware that Ph.D.s usually are never hired outside of labs and research centers. CEO with a Ph.D., name me few:)?Corporate America has huge prejustice against this kind of education.

Whats wrong with research centers and labs?


That's not the only possible life phylosophy. There is nothing divine about being #1.

You sorta have to be #1, the earth is not big enough for everyone, it should be obvious that you have to be successful or die. Do you see the homeless getting much help? Do you see poor families in Africa getting much help? Do you see people in ghettos in America getting much help?

The message is, be successful or die. Harsh, but thats how society treats the unsuccessful. The value of your life is attached to your status.

You can even pay for such a mistake. There are all kinds of universities out there, a degree in two weeks is possible. Besides, mistakes are possible too and what if you share name with someone, getting somebody's SS# is not a big problem? There all kinds of possibilities :)

That's complete bullshit. If you are going to argue against education, do so in an educated fashion, and it's philosophy not phylosophy.


I'm advocating the criminal thought that formal education is not an answer to our problems, it just became a powerful crowd controll tool in the hands of mighty ones.

The mighty ones are successful or lucky. You have the chance to be successful, to be as successful as possible, but you sacrifice your potential and then blame the mighty ones?

Rat race accelerator and elite protector. Isn't that education you are getting supposed to teach you some scritical thinking?

The rat race always existed. Before it was called slavery, and that was much worse because there was no way to move in that system. I personally prefer the rat race to slavery because at least you CAN be successful in the rat race even if you have to be in the top 10% to do it.

No man, chance is everywhere even on death row. There is a chance that green men will liberate Sadam. Working hard increases your chance only if somebody else is working hard in not so lucrative field. Think systematically.

No, it's not like that. It's more like working smarter than everyone else increases your chances of success. You should not be concerned with what the next person is doing. All you need to be concerned with is staying above water and not drowning.

Well, man you are still young, you don't understand how lucky your college years are. Pretty girls (there is no standard for prettiness) are everywhere, but they kind of dispersed. I don't tell you to look for a wife or a long term at a campus. I didnt' say to "meet", I clearly said "see", even if you have prejustice against college girls, and don't want to have anything in common with them, just look at them, because in your future cubicle and commute there will be none to look at.

Haha complete bullshit again. Why do I need to spend my life "looking" at women? Theres porn, theres images of women all over the damn TV. I'm actually interested in a serious woman to marry, not the typical college broad. No I do not have any prejudice towards college aged women, there are some good women in every college. I just don't know why you think I should be focused on college women just because I'm around them.

I also don't know why you think I should be focused on women at work. Don't you know there are places besides work and school to meet women?

Chances are, you won't meet your wife in either place.



Chances are that if they can't afford a top 20 MBA, they can't afford to pay you enough to make all that top105 MBA trouble and tuition worth it. MBA costs lots of $, you know it, don't you.

You are being silly.


There is certain MBA culture, top dogs look a lot the same independently of culture.

Are you trying to be racist?

Gee man, I guess all those people who could just find stinking 25k postdoc are stupid and ignore those abundant opportunities. I'll start sending out emails tomorow to let some know.

What is wrong with you?


If you are nobody under bridge, you have the freedom to create your own job. If you are a professor, you need to get hired somewhere first (as a professor or something like that) to have a shot at those grants. And that's not easy. Sure, you can try venture capitalists if you have head full of ideas, but again to get those ideas one usually needs to work in the related field somehow.

You don't know much. I have ideas now, and no PHD. If I had a PHD and ideas, I'd be rich. I'd be able to invent something or write a business plan, and get money just on the fact that I'm over educated and an expert on the topic.

That depend's on your field. One thing to study breatfeeding preferences of welfare moms, studying burst of a supernova is hard to imagine at nonprofits.