<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">

<font color = "red">Is Christ a Capitalist?</font>How would Christ view the Capitalist system, a system which is fueled by greed and consumption. If he was to choose, wouldn't he prefer some form of Communism? Wouldn't he be more inclined to share the wealth equally?

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It's all very large.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D

Geez bowser your good for some comic relief sometimes. I just hope I don't offend you by having a good giggle when your normally fairly serious about your posts. Sorry dude.

Surely you know where this is headed even before we start??? I mean there's the all so aparent versus about no man can serve two masters, its money or God. Then there the give Ceaser (?spelling) what is Ceasers and God what belongs to God. Not to mention the hearts intentions when dealing with giving and recieving and the multitude of verses that deal with all that.

Personally I don't think He's to worried about monetary systems or political ways of dealing with them. He's more interested in the hearts true intentions and seeing people grow in their understanding of who He is and what He has done. Growing in His character and nature, coming into an understanding and experience of His gift of salvation, eternity and what it holds for every soul.

Politics and money will pass away when the Kingship of the risen Lord is established. His Kingdom will know no ends and His glory will know no bounds. The close of time is approaching fast when He will return as the risen Lord of all Glory, so I kinda try not to get too distracted by the money and politics side of things. Focus on the heart, therein lies the true wealth.

But man I feel better after that giggle. Thanks mate, see ya on Monday.

Allcare

Tony H2o

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> No problem, Tony. My point is that our souls are shackled to the lives we live. You can't live in this system of capitalism without selling yourself and your soul.

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It's all very large.

Originally posted by Bowser:
<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> No problem, Tony. My point is that our souls are shackled to the lives we live. You can't live in this system of capitalism without selling yourself and your soul.



Sorry dude I think you've missunderstood.

Your treasure will be where your heart is.

Why focus so hard on building up treasure on earth where moth and rust destroy and thieves break in and steal. Rather build up treasure in heaven where non of these things can touch it.

Your right in part, the point is that our souls are shackled to the lives we live. You can live in this system of capitalism without selling yourself and your soul to it.

There are things of eternal worth at work all around us 24/7 Bowser, and no I'm not refering to great works of charity or all the headline stuff. Its in the way we smile at a stranger, in the way we look into a childs eyes, in the way we give our two copper coins worth of everything. Its in the way we give of ourselves in all things great and small to show the world that there is a God who loves them. One who they can love to.

As Lori would say "its pretty trippy".

Its the things we do that shape a persons view of eternity and shows them who the sustainer of all creation truly is.

We are in this world, but need not be of this world.

Allcare

Tony H2o

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Tony,

That's the problem. We hold back the best of our personal treasure, saving it for heaven. Our view of the World is that it's nothing more than buttwipe. How can we look in the eyes of a child while knowing that we are leaving for them our soiled discards? What service have we done for them?

<font color = "blue">"We are in this world, but need not be of this world."</font>

Sorry, Tony...WE MADE THIS WORLD. Share the responsibility.

<font color = "blue">"Your right in part, the point is that our souls are shackled to the lives we live. You can live in this system of capitalism without selling yourself and your soul to it."</font>

No, you support a system of greed by living in it. In a sense, you work for the Devil.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited June 16, 2000).]

Uh, was the garden of eden a SYSTEM? Can anyone say paradigm? There would be no system; no need. We would respect, take what we need, give thanks to God, take care of the planet and each other, and there would be sooooooo enough to go around. Now then.....see how stupid we humans are????

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Bowser--

You won't be getting any derisive laughter out of me; excellent notion there, I must say.

I'll insert "Communitarian" instead of Communism, since it rings better and can be separated from government.

It could simply be that Christ understood the purpose of comparative wealth, and the proper benefit that could be attained. It could also be that he chose not to jump all over economy, as such, because it wasn't a forefront aspect of society; economic change would come through political change which would only come through tapping into people's hearts.

Check with Max Weber; Christ wasn't necessarily "capitalist", but by the 19th century, His churches most certainly were.

But I do think Christ understood something about the reasons for money, and was frustrated that the rest of his culture was conveniently overlooking that reason. This, of course, might be my own fantastic projections of the current situation onto a Biblical template. As such, I'll stop babbling. :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

I don't see why Christ would have a problem with someone making a living. If He asks us to help the poor, then it follows that being poor is not we He wants for us. If we make a decent living, we can affort to help the poor.

I think what you may be getting at is the people that are greedy, only live for money, and don't help the poor. Yeah, I think He'd have a problem with that!

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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Lori,

So, we can be evil while we are here because God will sweep up the mess later?

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It's all very large.

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> tiassa,

<font color = "blue">"Communitarian"</font>

I think you have created a new word for next century, Man. <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon7.gif"> --I had to write that one into my Webster.

<font color = "blue">"It could simply be that Christ understood the purpose of comparative wealth, and the proper benefit that could be attained."

"But I do think Christ understood something about the reasons for money..." </font>

Please explain...?

<hr>

Pashley,

<font color = "green">"I don't see why Christ would have a problem with someone making a living. If He asks us to help the poor, then it follows that being poor is not we He wants for us. If we make a decent living, we can affort to help the poor." </font>

Why do we have poor and rich?

<font color = "green">"I think what you may be getting at is the people that are greedy, only live for money, and don't help the poor. Yeah, I think He'd have a problem with that!" </font>

Where does greed begin and end? What do we need to be comfortable?


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It's all very large.

Originally posted by Bowser:


Why do we have poor and rich?

Well, my off-the-cuff answer is because people don't care enough to help one another (generally speaking). Of course, their are other reasons; people might just not want to work all that much, they don't the want or knowledge to get a good job, it's what they are used to, and so forth.

But there are truly those that try to make their way in the world, and can't get by so well. Maybe the kid in Africa who's parents were just slaughterd by a neighboring tribe, or that guy that lost his job because he is so sick. People that are truly poor. They needed to be helped, to be sure. Might I say I have been pretty darn poor, by American standards, before. I once lived in a community housing deal, in which I only had a small room with a bed, closet, desk and window. Shared a bathroom and kitchen. It was quite the scene, let me tell you. I was working part time at a gas station. No car, no bike, not much of anything. Alot more than some in this world have, though.

For what it's worth, in Matthew 26:11, Jesus said, "The poor you will always have..."

Originally posted by Bowser:

Where does greed begin and end? What do we need to be comfortable?


I think greed begins when a person has more than another person, and that person needs that (money, food, whatever). This assumes the first person has enough for himself and family. Where does it end? When you relieve the other person's need, I guess.

What do we need to be comfortable? Pretty tough one! Like defining porn. You know it when you see it. I'm pretty comfortable, but when i was down and out, like i mentioned before, I sure wasn't!

God bless, man!

Patrick

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"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

Pashley

It sounds to me like you are taking the side that God is "communitarian". After all, when the people that are comfortable give to the poor, that can be paraphrased as "sharing the wealth".

Bowser,

How in the hell did you get THAT out of what I said? It's not ok to be evil. It's not ok to be greedy. We are all born with the hand that we are dealt, and we are all responsible to love God, and do the best we can. And Jesus preached according to what had already been dealt. The garden is gone for now. There's nothing wrong with earning a living. I'm just arguing ideology. In the world that God designed for us to live in before the fall, the concept of money would be ludicrous.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

I don't know, but I would like to quote from Luke 19:12-27:

12 He said therefore, <font color = "red">A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, they pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.</font>

Of course, I'm sure this parable had something to do with using the gifts you've been given, but I don't think there's anything wrong with making the most of whatever you have, as long as you are reasonably charitable as well.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

From earlier in this thread: You can't live in this system of capitalism without selling yourself and your soul.

Sure, I sold my soul. But they threw in this neat cell phone.

(I saw that on a button somewhere. Paramount Imports, I think.)

Bowser--

To spare the long-winded version, I think I can explain it thus:

Part of the reason you have a dollar bill is because it's easier than carrying two chickens and a cow with you to barter with. That's as mind-numbingly pickety I'm getting here.

To put it better: economy. There is a reason that people organize themselves as they do. In our own day, we're capitalists, but why? It's almost reached the point of cannibalism.

I think Christ might have figured out something about how economy affects morality, and how that tied into church, governance, and the plight of poor, sick, meek, &c.

I'll leave it at that because I just deleted a very long-winded block that only makes sense if you're as ... uh ... :D as I. (Enough said, please. It was really long and tangential.)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

I don't know about Jesus being a capitalist, but the Christian church sure is.
I'm sure you've all heard of the Vatican's laundering and 're-distribution' of Nazi gold and treasures stolen from the Jews during the second WW.

In my own Greek Orthodox country, on monday, we visited the most important monastery in the land.
The place positively drips with gold and silver. Inside the main building and courtyard an ancient chapel has been converted into a shop selling the monks produce, including honey, fruit preserves, wine and spirit licquers.
My friends bought 4 bottles of Commandaria (dessert wine) which is usually used for communion. Yesterday I read one of the labels on the bottles, it said, Imported by (whoever) London England. For Export Only.
So there you go, our own church officially sells illicit booze because it knows it can get away with it. What's-more, is that it's doing it from within its own holy grounds and by its own holy monks!
If that isn't promoting true capitalism, I don't know what is.

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Love yourself, as you would love a stranger

To spare the long-winded version, I think I can explain it thus:

Part of the reason you have a dollar bill is because it's easier than carrying two chickens and a cow with you to barter with.

Tiassa - I am impressed! That's basically it in a nutshell, and you said it in one short sentence!! Dude, are you okay? :)

The problem with paper money is that it is inflatable, while chickens and cows are not. But still, the capitalistic system is the only one that seems to work - that is, it's the only truly productive system in the world. That's because humans are basically selfish - we're programmed that way for survival. But if you're only allowed to keep enough of what you make to just barely get by on, what reason would you have to do more than the minimum you need to do to just barely get by? That's just human nature, and I don't see that changing any time in the near future.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Do you guys know what the fatal flaw is in this arguement? It's that we don't own anything on or in this planet. We don't own ourselves even. We don't own chickens and cows even. This entire planet, everything in it, and even our very own lives and souls belong to God. We are just a bunch of babysitters. And we're trashing the house while the owner is away ya know? If we would all just realize that this is not ours, we would all behave very differently, and this world would be a better place. I mean, nevermind the dollar, why even barter? Why not just give what is needed, take what is needed, what God gave us all, and have a little respect for this world, for God, and for each other?

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

This entire planet, everything in it, and even our very own lives and souls belong to God. We are just a bunch of babysitters. And we're trashing the house while the owner is away ya know?

First, I never liked the idea of being a babysitter when I was never given the choice. Second, If the "owner" never wanted us to do what we wanted with it he would chosen those who would take better care of it.

I mean, nevermind the dollar, why even barter? Why not just give what is needed, take what is needed, what God gave us all, and have a little respect for this world, for God, and for each other?

Becuase it's not that rosey of a world. Remeber free will? If those who have do nothing but provide for those who do not have you would one group of pepole who work hard to give to others, and another group that will not work becuase it is being provided to them. A system ware you must work to get what you have / want helps balance this out. It's not perfect, but it's better then skippy around handing everything out to those who do not want to work for it. Sure there are those who really do need help and we should help not provide. It may be ruff but it also helps foster self esteam. What good is heaven if you feel you do not deserve it?

Hi 666,

You've just confused me. I don't think you understand what I'm arguing. I always have this problem....in one way, in saying that we don't own anything, and none of this is ours to "give", and money has no place, I'm arguing an ideology that doesn't exist. It did exist at one time, and we're told about that time in the Bible. This is theoretical in nature, going back to a time when things were much different. I'm arguing a perfect world, and to do that, requires the notion of some parallel universe that sprang from the garden of eden, without a fall ever ocurring. It's nonapplicable to reality today, but I don't think that it's irrelevant in theory. I think that it can serve to stretch our minds, and provide for a lot of learning, if you compare this universe with that one, and take a look at the difference between the two. The difference is sin and it's effects. In order to get this arguement, you have to look at the big picture. In a "perfect world" no one would work any harder than anyone else. No one would be "getting one over" on someone else. The perfection would come from perfect knowledge of God, no temptation for sin, and perfect intentions toward God, the universe, and each other. Now what I'm saying is that WE DON'T OWN ANYTHING. Now that's not just theory, that's reality. Nothing I have belongs to me, including my own body and soul. That's a fact jack. So explain to me how it is that you can be "charitable" if you don't own anything to begin with? It's not yours to give.

Now when you read the Bible, and some of the verses like the ones that Searcher has cited, Jesus was preaching to us, given our current state of mind and state of existence at the time. He knew that the world was not perfect. He knew that we would always operate under some "system". He knew that we would continue to "own" things. So given that, he preached His word. But if you notice, His word jives with the concept that really, it's not even ours to give, so give it up already. He also talks about reaping what you sow. He's talking about trying to "get something for nothing", which is not right either. It's all very large.

And unfortunately none of us DESERVE heaven. It's impossible to EARN a pass. Can you say grace? In that same vein, none of us deserve it any less or more than the other. It's a matter of acceptance. You don't earn it. You deserve it just as much as I do and just as much as Charles Manson does; none of us do. But I sure will see your ass there, now won't I? ;)

Hm...so you're complaining that you didn't have a choice, and then complaining that you do have a choice? That's semi-paradoxical. Ok, how do you know that you didn't have a choice? Somebody help me out here, but doesn't it say in the Bible that we did in some way? And Jesus makes me feel like I've known Him before, but I just don't remember. Just a thought. And what about your precious free will? Don't you think it's a good thing? I do. God does. It seems right to me.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.


[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 19, 2000).]

Lori,

If we don't own anything on this earth, then why did God include a commandment not to steal? According to my dictionary, to steal is to take another person's property without right or permission. According to your belief, there is no such thing as personal property - so that commandment was pointless, right?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Well, thou shalt not covet or worship idols either. Idolatry can be in relation to money, people, things, and ourselves (self-pity). And we may covet these same things. Like I said, in a PERFECT world, with perfect knowledge, we would know that nothing belongs to us. It says that in the Bible too. But given the REALITY that we have a "system" at all times (which God being all knowing, knew that we would), thou shalt not steal. And remember intent. Why steal? It's not the act of stealing, it's the intent of not reaping what you sow, or coveting someone else's something. If your baby is dying, and you steal some milk from a store, with no intentions of hurting anyone, but to help an innocent child, is that wrong? You have to think about these things deeply Searcher. You can't be so cut and dry and black and white. It's just not as simple as you're trying to make it out to be. I'm not trying to diss you, I just want you to understand that the Bible is more than what you think it is.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Interesting...

I see capitalism bringing out the worst in human nature. It works on the assumption that we are lazy and that our only motivation is greed. How many of us love our jobs? Would we be working for our employer if we won the lottery?

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It's all very large.

I just resigned from a $50K a year job as a capitalist pig! Yea! I just couldn't buy into the big life-sucking, money-making machine anymore. I'm going to do something that I can feel good about at the end of the day. I have no idea what that is yet, but I'll get there. :) In the meantime, I just applied for a bartender/coctail server position!!!! LMAO! You should have seen the application...it was like 2 lines long. I handed it to an eighteen year old kid and they said they'd get back to me! LOL! This is going to be fun.

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You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> Wow. That is a big change.

What I also find disturbing is the way that our jobs consume our lives. It's not as though we can buy back the lost time. I've pissed-off a lot of supervisors simply because I refused to work weekends or overtime.

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It's all very large.