We all know that some parts of Iraq are more secure than other parts. So, the poeple in the secure parts will vote but the people in the non-secure parts will not be able to vote. So, the elections are not valid at all. We all know that..So, i hope that the US will not talk about how the democracy worked in Iraq and how great it is in Iraq after the elections.
The people in the north will vote but what about the rest? You call this democracy?!?!

White House Has High Stake in Iraqi Vote
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4764825 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4764825,00.html), 00.html
Do you all See ? It really was all worth it in the end ! The Iraqis finally had elections! Wasnt that worth the looting of your public wealth of 200 billion and a few thousand of your soldiers ?
In Armored Vehicles, U.S. Troops Tell Iraqis to Vote
Heavily-armed troops jump out and begin searching homes as loudspeakers blast in Arabic: "On Sunday you should go out to vote. Vote to give freedom to Iraq. Vote to save Iraq." http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyI (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7468491) D=7468491
A North Korean'esqe flavour these elections have I can hardly wait for the US newspaper headlines on Monday " People United In Joy ".
Two Americans Dead in U.S. Embassy Bombing
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46665-2005Jan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46665-2005Jan29.html) 29.html
De javu ? Wasnt the US embassy in Saigon stormed by a squad of VC in 1968 ? The spectre of malaise here .
Heavy Gunbattle Heard in Baghdad
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4764171 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4764171,00.html), 00.html
Just like I said eeriely like the 68 Tet offensive .
Insurgents are domestic, Sunni and nationalist
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/713eb270-716d-11d9-a5d6-00000e2511c (http://news.ft.com/cms/s/713eb270-716d-11d9-a5d6-00000e2511c8.html) 8.html
Remeber my post "who is behind these attacks in Iraq" I was right all along they are the people of IRAQ, and they want their country BACK.
Iraq Health Ministry Figures

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4217413.stm
And what I have known all along its the US and allies that is kilingl most Iraqis not the 'terrorists' .

In all fairness, this is simply to set up a constitutional convention, not actually elect leaders to run the country.

However, I fear that the US will use this to its advantage and elect a puppet government. But then again, I wouldn't expect anything less.

top_mosker It would be WORSE for them to rig a consitutional convention than an actual election. What if they put into the constitution "leaders must be santioned by the US" and "all constitional changers must be ratifide by US president"????

i dont think they would be that crude but think if they did. any goverment at all would be a puppet then

Suicide bombs and mortars killed at least 27 people, but voters still came out in force for the first multi-party poll in 50 years. In some places they cheered with joy at their first chance to cast a free vote, in others they shared chocolates.

Even in Falluja, the Sunni city west of Baghdad that was a militant stronghold until a U.S. assault in November, a steady stream of people turned out, confounding expectations. Lines of veiled women clutching their papers waited to vote.
http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050130/2005-01-30T141229Z_01_BAK023473_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-ELECTION-SCENE-DC.html

Voting was to have ended at 1700 (1400 GMT) but was extended to allow people waiting at polling stations to cast their ballots.

Iraqi electoral officials estimated that up to eight million Iraqis could have voted - more than 60% of those registered.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4220551.stm

Eight million in a country of 25 million? Not bad.

First and foremost, let's get our terms straight. There is no democratic process in Iraq. Iraq is occupied by 150,000 U.S. troops. The Baath and other parties are proscribed from participating in elections or holding public office. In a real democracy, voters are free to choose from any party. In a real democracy, a foreign occupation force does not exert any political influence whatsoever. And in a real democracy, people aren't afraid to venture out into the streets, risking rape or kidnapping in order to vote. You can't have democracy without basic security, period.

So this is not democracy.

Which gets us to the next term: "Iraqi judges," etc. By definition anyone who holds public office in an occupied country is a collaborator. This would include, for example, Palestinian Authority "leaders" under the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Now a collaborator may or not be a good person, and he may or may not be laboring under a benevolent occupier, but he is certainly a collaborator and thus a fair target for nationalist/patriotic resistance forces seeking to expel the occupiers.

Collaborators are, in some ways, even more of an enemy to the Iraqi resistance than the Americans. They demoralize the resistance and set an example of subservience that other Iraqis may emulate. It's not surprising, therefore, that Iraqi guerillas would choose to execute them.

http://www.rall.com/rants.html

This is the best you can expect in a country that is still stuck in the feudalist period. For hundreds and hundreds of years ever dispute has been settled with a gun, sword, or branding someone an infidel. Change is never smooth and rarely ever pretty.

I am glad that the Iraqi ppl feel they had a election, but what really made me scratch my head was that the assembly will be determined by a proportional representation system which in Iraq would put the Shi'a in a huge majority since the Sunni's voted in little numbers, and I suspect that the Sunni vote is fragmented due to all these parties. This doesn’t look all to good for avoiding a civil war, the Sunni’s will feel left out (even if they all voted they would still not be power) and I believe a cessionary movement may grow.

At a little after noon EST, Jane Arraf on CNN is reporting about 30 percent turnout in Baqubah, a mixed Sunni-Shiite city to the northeast of Baghdad. It seems clear that the turnout was largely Shiite.

Although the violence and attacks have been extensive and took place all over the country, the security measures put in prevented massive loss of life. Suicide bombers clearly could not get close enough to crowds to take a big toll.

On the other hand, if the turnout is as light in the Sunni Arab areas as it now appears, the parliament/ constitutional assembly is going to be extremely lopsided. It would be sort of like having an election in California where the white Protestants all stayed home and the legislature was mostly Latinos, African-Americans and Asians.

http://www.juancole.com/

Democrats in America are slitting their wrists over the high turn out. They were hoping for another Tet. I would give anything to be on the plane taking Dan Rather and other members of the Old Media back to NYC. All of them will be drunk and telling stories about the good old days reporting from Viet Nam.

Yes, us liberals (in my case used for lack of a better term) are so upset over the prospect of our troops being able to leave Iraq. That would be enough to make me contemplate suicide.

Get a grip. The situation we face in Iraq is expensive, dangerous, and shows no sign of going our way any time soon, if ever. It shows every sign of being like the Soviet's invasion and occupation of Afghanistan.

This is the best you can expect in a country that is still stuck in the feudalist period. For hundreds and hundreds of years ever dispute has been settled with a gun, sword, or branding someone an infidel. Change is never smooth and rarely ever pretty.
What about you? Don't americans still live in a disguised feudalist system?Aren't there still poor people that pay lots of taxes and work their asses off and receive nothing, while rich people do nothing and gain millions? :rolleyes:

Yes, us liberals (in my case used for lack of a better term) are so upset over the prospect of our troops being able to leave Iraq. That would be enough to make me contemplate suicide.

Why the word "liberal" is bad?

The word liberal isn't bad. The perjorative parody of it the right wingers have constructed is. But there are many issues where I part company with liberal orthodoxy. But it fits me better than any other label.

What about you? Don't americans still live in a disguised feudalist system?Aren't there still poor people that pay lots of taxes and work their asses off and receive nothing, while rich people do nothing and gain millions? :rolleyes:Yah! I guess that's why so many poor people try to get into the U.S. :rolleyes:

the standard of living between poor mexicans and poor americans is quite contrasting.

prelude to problems from the Sunni triangle....
another note, poor Europeans seldom run to US and vice versa

Yah! I guess that's why so many poor people try to get into the U.S. :rolleyes:
I didn't quite intend to refer to americans as the poor people. I was refering to the politics of exportation of poverty- that is, rich people in US, controlling poor people in developing/underdeveloped countries (mostly developing, actually). This is what I wrote about it last time:

America ended slavery, the only places in the world that still has slavery is Africa.

What? Which world do you live in!? America has made the world an enourmous market of slavery! America alone put dozens of dictators in many countries, including Saddam! Not to mention the fact that the globalization that the US so loves is just a politics of exploitation and exportation of poverty!!! Someone needs to make the products you consume, you know? And for those producst to be as cheap as they are for you, it measns that the peopkle that make those products receive almost nothing. Do you know how much the billions of chinese and other people that produce the stuff you consume receive!? Well, they receive less than they need to sustain their families! So they starve most of the time and work at least ten times as much as you do! So, guess who is promoting slavery!!?!?!?!?!
I hope that clarifies.

The word liberal isn't bad. The perjorative parody of it the right wingers have constructed is. But there are many issues where I part company with liberal orthodoxy. But it fits me better than any other label.
Oh, ok. That explains a lot. It just seems that americans tend not to like that word.....

Clarification, TruthSeeker? The last time I checked, the third world contries were anxious for the manufacturing jobs that U.S. markets created. So you're blaming our consumption? Do we control the wage scales of the PRC? Thialand? Or elsewhere? Maybe their governments do. Hmmmmmm!

And I thought that Saddam put himself in power via a coup.

Okay, now I understand. To be successful is sinful. It's vile to have a standard of living higher than your neighbor because, of course, it must have been stolen because honest effort and work couldn't possibly account for it! People were meant to be poor. Now I get it. :D

http://re2.mm-b.yimg.com/image/566444002

Democracy and freedom took a huge step forward with the Iraqi elections. Over 70% of eligible voters went to the polls even under threat of death to exercise their God given right of self governance. This is a huge defeat for terrorists and anti-democratic forces around the world and in this country. No one can deny now the Iraqis do not want freedom and democracy. It is a great day for the world. First Afghanistan now Iraq is breathing the delicious air of freedom. Let freedom ring and God bless the free people of the world everywhere. :)

Indeed. This is a great day for democracy. Although others would make you think otherwise.

The elections mean nothing, it will still be the New American Puppet Regime.
I take it from your post Brutus that you buy into Georges "they hate our freedom" crap.

Where to begin...

I am happy that the people of Iraq were able to vote. It's also great that they care more about elections than most of the American populous. Hopefully good things will start to pan out for Iraq.

However I would not say it is their God given right. As they do not believe in the same gods as most of the American populous, I would for go ever saying that.

Is this a defeat for terrorist. I think not. This isn't going to change the mind of terrorists or how they work. They will still commit acts of terror, whether it here, Europe, south America, or the middle east. It'll still happen. Defeat against anti-democratic forces? How? I am all for democracy, however I think it should be attained by the people that want it, THEY should do the fighting not someone else. The American Revolution was started by Americans and we fought and died for -our- freedom, we did enlist the help of a other countries but once all was said and done, the country was OURS and those that helped were thanked and LEFT.

I guess my feelings for how freedom should be attained are varied from others. If the oppressed people don't want to fight for something better, that's their fault. If they want to fight for their freedom, to better things for themselves and ask for help from other countries, cool, I am down for helping them achieve their goal and then leaving. Walking in and being their army, police, body guards and them not caring, fuck that.

Great day for the world? Again.. I may be just blind as to see how, so do educate me on this.

Anyway, it's great that the Iraqis got out and voted. I really do hope things turn around and they can over come the challenges of different sects. Here's to free Iraqis!

Who ever denied that the Iraqi's want freedom? But the likelihood of an intact Iraq emerging from the chaos is slim.

The survey, to be released at 5 p.m. ET on Abu Dhabi Television, found three-quarters (76%) of Sunni Arabs say they definitely will not vote in the January 30 elections, while just 9% say they are likely to vote. A majority of Shiites (80%) say they are likely to vote or definitely will vote, as are a smaller majority of Kurds (57%).

Majorities of both Sunni Arabs (82%) and Shiites (69%) also favor U.S. forces withdrawing either immediately or after an elected government is in place.

The poll also found that of Iraq’s ethnic and religious groups, only the Kurds believe the U.S. will “help” Iraq over the next five years, while half (49%) of Shiites and a majority (64%) of Sunni Arabs believe the U.S. will “hurt” Iraq.

“There are deep divisions that exist—divisions that are so deep and pronounced that this election, instead of bringing people together, may very well tear them apart,” said Dr. James Zogby, an analyst for Zogby International and host of Abu Dhabi TV’s “Viewpoint”. “The closest thing to this in America isn’t red and blue states. It’s probably the election of 1860.”

The poll also finds that, while a majority of Shiites (84%) and Kurds (64%) wish to hold the elections Sunday as planned, Sunni Arabs overwhelmingly favor delaying the vote (62%).

“What’s truly alarming isn’t the number of Sunni Arabs who want to delay Sunday’s vote,” Zogby said. “What’s alarming is that more than half—53% in this survey—believe that ongoing attacks in Iraq are a legitimate form of resistance. With this group already boycotting the election, this makes for a very violent combination.”

“Only the Kurds seem to favor a continued U.S. presence, and are likely to outright reject violent resistance,” Zogby added.

The survey also asked Iraqis which nations they believed it was possible to foster improved relations with. While a majority of Iraqis believe relations can be improved between Iraq and neighbors Kuwait, Turkey, and Iran, all ethnic and religious groups overwhelmingly rejected improving relations with the State of Israel.

Iraqis do not desire to remake their country in the image of neighboring Iran, however. Three-in-five (59%) favor a system where citizens are allowed to practice their own religion, while one-in-three (34%) would prefer an Islamic government.
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=957

Let freedom ring and God bless the free people of the world everywhere. :)

Especially those in China, Sudan, Indonesia, The Republic of Congo (or whatever it is called this week), Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia (motto: "we're even more Orwellian than the US!"), Syria, and not to mention, the fifteen million lives ruined at home due to our own domestic freedom campaign - The War on Drugs along with our semi-feudal system of corpo-fascism.

Yes, today, freedom rings throughout the world.

Seriously, dude, go read the appendix (http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/~smf7/175/chapp.html) in 1984

Did America free the people of Iraq into their own way of thinking, or the US way of thinking.? ...

they are two different cultures, with two differnet desires in existance.

Freedom is not a "United States" way of thinking. Freedom is a universal yearning of all human kind. Humans are born to be free. It just isn't "white" skinned countries that deserve to be free. Every race, religion, creed, and tongue desire liberty and independence. It is our birthright given to us by God. The greatest evil is to allow freedom to be taken away from anyone. We must continually fight for it. It is worth fighting and dying for. Without it we are all slaves.

Be that as it may, the radicals fighting us believe that freedom is evil. Freedom asks the people what they want. To the radicals this is immoral. What is right is the word of god. There can be only one answer and it is not open for debate.

This is what the terrorists believe.

There are many cultures and religious groups the world over that don't view freedom as being good, natural, or even harmless.

The US is fairly unique in that it believes that freedom should be had by all. Few nations believe this. They either don't believe in it at all or only think it's right for 'some' people.

We've got a bumpy road ahead... but we're on a side we can at least be proud of for once.

Lets hope it stays that way.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Democracy and freedom took a huge step forward with the Iraqi elections. Over 70% of eligible voters went to the polls even under threat of death to exercise their God given right of self governance



First of all it wasnt 72% as originally reported it is now down to 60% of eligible voters and even the Election Commision of Iraq said that it would take "some" time to get an accurate account of how many people voted





This is a huge defeat for terrorists and anti-democratic forces around the world and in this country.


As far as I know the "insurgents" are anti-occupation not anti-Democracy



First Afghanistan now Iraq is breathing the delicious air of freedom.


Ahhhh yes the delicious air of a Puppet regime.....maybe Pakistian next?.....nope they helped Bush out...Saudi? yea right they and Bush are best friends......does Kuwaiit have elections? Jordan?...hmmm.....seems like you gotta be an enemy of the US to taste that freedom



Let freedom ring


Sean Hannity?......Seriously dude mainly Kurds and Shia's voted in this election because they had the most to gain.......now the oppressed minority will be the Sunni's and all because the boycotted because they smelled this stinch a mile away :m:

Iraq will not be a puppet state.

The war would be totally pointless if that were the case... pointless for everyone.

As to the belly acing about the Sunnis, this is their decision. If you refuse to participate then the other factions will rule you.

That is no one's fault, but their own.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

The sore loser John Kerry said we should not hype the election in Iraq. I guess to John Kerry people voting for the 1st times in their lives under threat of death is no big deal. Thank you Heavenly Father that he is not our President!

John Kerry is a man who thinks people actually care what he sais. If we cared he would have won, but he didn't because we don't.

Iraq will not be a puppet state.

The war would be totally pointless if that were the case... pointless for everyone.

As to the belly acing about the Sunnis, this is their decision. If you refuse to participate then the other factions will rule you.

That is no one's fault, but their own.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.




No offense dude but thats the dumbest thing I may have ever read on these boards.......How in the world would it be bad for the US to put someone in charge of the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world that was friendly to their cause? You can see American hypocrasy by the fact that the House of Saud oppresses their population much more and is involved in much more terrorism than Iraq ever was yet since they are friendly to the US nothing happens to them

Clarification, TruthSeeker? The last time I checked, the third world contries were anxious for the manufacturing jobs that U.S. markets created. So you're blaming our consumption? Do we control the wage scales of the PRC? Thialand? Or elsewhere? Maybe their governments do. Hmmmmmm!
What!?!? It is the multinationals that control the wages in those countries!?!? What the heck are you talking about!? Ever heard of Nike's slave wages in China? That's one of the many examples.

And I thought that Saddam put himself in power via a coup.
Nope. US chose and helped him getting to power.

Okay, now I understand. To be successful is sinful.
Nope. To be proud of a country that slave people throughout the world is sinful.

It's vile to have a standard of living higher than your neighbor because, of course, it must have been stolen because honest effort and work couldn't possibly account for it!
Not at all. Altough US did steal a great part of what it has.... :rolleyes:

As for high standards of living, it is a curse, not a blessing. High standards of living causes greater costs of living. Your economy is ready to blow up like a buble full of air. Housing costs, tuition costs, student debts and consumer debts are skyrocketing. Once nobody has money to pay debts, the banks will go bankrupt and you will have the worst deression in the history of mankind- all thanks to excessive consumption.... :rolleyes:

People were meant to be poor. Now I get it.
No. It is just that a few people were mean to be obese...... :rolleyes:

As far as I know the "insurgents" are anti-occupation not anti-Democracy

That must be why they killed iraqis who had the balls to vote despite thier threats :rolleyes:
In one incident 4 people in Baghdad were murdered because they had indellible ink on thier fingers after voting. So at least 60% of iraqis voted despite the terror threat against those participating how many might have voted if there were no death threats from the "insurgents" 70%, 80% ? Do you still think the insurgents represent the majority of iraqis?


Seriously dude mainly Kurds and Shia's voted in this election because they had the most to gain.......now the oppressed minority will be the Sunni's and all because the boycotted because they smelled this stinch a mile away :m:

Oh the injustice imagine that the groups that makes up 80% of iraqs population might actually have a majority say in how iraq is run, sheer horror :eek:

Freedom is not a "United States" way of thinking. Freedom is a universal yearning of all human kind.

The problem stems not from the fact that people want to be free, which most people do it is what they consider freedom. Like you said Freedom is not a American concept but it seems that only the Ameri can concept of freedom is acceptable. Do you think that those Islamic fundamentalists aren’t fighting for freedom? They would define freedom as being outside the western orbit or cultural, and economic control. To them that is freedom, and many cultures around the world have seen what “the white man’s burden” has done and our conception of freedom is not a universal maxim, that is where you and most Americans get confused. You believe freedom to be one thing, an individualist expression, but most cultures in the world are much more collectivist.

I love this article title from an iraqi blog site

Sunday, January 30, 2005
SUICIDE BOMBERS V. SUICIDE VOTERS

The last time I checked, the third world countries were anxious for the manufacturing jobs that U.S. markets created.

Which in turn is destroying the core of the American economy which is manufacturing, an economy cannot exist on its own without making value added goods, and the US economy even according to the capitalist "demi-god" Adam Smith is a drain on the world not an asset.

So you're blaming our consumption?

You mean this unsustainably high level of American consumption which in turn = debt which = off shoring more jobs to lower prices= the cycle of economic violence.

Do we control the wage scales of the PRC? Thialand? Or elsewhere? Maybe their governments do. Hmmmmmm!

But the US could prevent its corporations from doing business in these countries by mandating that the in order for a American chartered corporation to invest in let’s say the PRC, the PRC has to maintain a certain living standard, and wage level. It’s not like the US cannot do anything, and many democrats are pushing this.

And I thought that Saddam put himself in power via a coup.

Well to be sure he had US support when he was gassing his own people in 1988 with satellite photos and diplomatic support.

The sore loser John Kerry said we should not hype the election in Iraq. I guess to John Kerry people voting for the 1st times in their lives under threat of death is no big deal. Thank you Heavenly Father that he is not our President!

John Kerry is a man who thinks people actually care what he sais. If we cared he would have won, but he didn't because we don't.
Ok, cynicism aside, people voting in Iraq is great. These people got their first taste of freedom especially compared to the system they had before. Great. Wonderful. Everything is honkey dory.

Only one problem - violence is and has been escalating in Iraq for some time. Our people are getting killed. Their people are getting killed. Civilians are getting killed en masse. We should not overstate the importance of this election because it is simply a baby step.

And I have a question for you Brutus - What if the new Iraqi government decides it wants the US out? How would you feel then?

The sore loser John Kerry said we should not hype the election in Iraq. I guess to John Kerry people voting for the 1st times in their lives under threat of death is no big deal. Thank you Heavenly Father that he is not our President!

John Kerry is a man who thinks people actually care what he sais. If we cared he would have won, but he didn't because we don't.

We shouldn't hype the election, it's the least we can do, considering we destroyed much of their country, and killed 100,000 Iraqis.

Did you know that John Kerry not only received more popular votes than President Bush did in 2000, but more than his father, than Bill Clinton, and even more votes than Ronald Reagan?

Its a start, anyway. Lets see how it goes.

That must be why they killed iraqis who had the balls to vote despite thier threats :rolleyes:
In one incident 4 people in Baghdad were murdered because they had indellible ink on thier fingers after voting. So at least 60% of iraqis voted despite the terror threat against those participating how many might have voted if there were no death threats from the "insurgents" 70%, 80% ? Do you still think the insurgents represent the majority of iraqis?




Oh the injustice imagine that the groups that makes up 80% of iraqs population might actually have a majority say in how iraq is run, sheer horror :eek:




Path!!!!!!! what took you so long?? It seems I cant post without you stalking me :p anyways yes I do think that the insurgency represents most Iraqi's.....quit lying with your stats also......60% of registered Iraqi's voted most of whom were Shiite and Kurdish who had the most to gain.Turkey has allready said they may not Recognize Election Results in Kerkuk(oops sorry Kurds)....So great.......now the Sunni's will be the repressed minority in Iraq.Yet this is a good thing to you...Feel free to answer me back after the Civil War this will cause in Iraq. There are 150k foreign troops on Iraqi soil after a illegal invasion yet you think that a vote without political representation in which people verbally hostile to the occupation were deemed Bathists or worse people with Al Queda ties werent even allowed to run.....ya time will tell

Is there anyone out there who would have been happier if the result was, say, 30% instead of 60%?

The sore loser John Kerry said we should not hype the election in Iraq. I guess to John Kerry people voting for the 1st times in their lives under threat of death is no big deal.

It's not a big deal. You know why? Because the citizens voting have FALSE HOPE. Do you seriously believe that their votes are going to make a difference? Even democratic election processes can be manipulated to make a person a winner. Look how the eligable parties and peoples flooded the ballot. Look how the candidates weren't known until the day of voting. No way in hell is that a knowledable vote. Democracy means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING if people aren't knowleable in what they're actually voting for and the people of Iraq were ill-prepared and knew next to nothing as to what was going on. It then basically becomes no different from a dictatorship controlling the ignorant masses. Like someone else said here, even Saddam held elections, but it means nothing if the outcome remains the same regardless of the vote.

This is why the election shouldn't be hyped because the people have no real choice in who is being elected despite it being a "democratic" vote. You can candy-coat and use whatever wording you want to make the election sound nice, but the end result is the same, and our news agencies, government, and everyone else did exactly that, candy-coatded and hyped it to make it out to sound like something it's not. Oh, but because it was "democractic" it means it was truly legit and it was all about the power of the people, lol, yeah right. It seems you got sucked into the propoganda too.

Freedom is not a "United States" way of thinking. Freedom is a universal yearning of all human kind. Humans are born to be free. It just isn't "white" skinned countries that deserve to be free. Every race, religion, creed, and tongue desire liberty and independence. It is our birthright given to us by God. The greatest evil is to allow freedom to be taken away from anyone. We must continually fight for it. It is worth fighting and dying for. Without it we are all slaves.

Without it, we're all slaves? We're already slaves to society regardless. Let's see you really live a free life. People hate true freedom if one isn't a slave to society. Go watch Easy Rider and see what some feel about truly free people. Yeah, I know it's a movie, but stuff like that really happened and still does. People like dismissing truly free people as lazy, second class citizens that don't care about the advancement of society or whatever the new "in" cliche insult and mentality may be. We still gotta do what the government tells us and live under their rules. We still gotta work long hours day in and day out as if we're some drone colony just to survive. Live a life that is outside the norm like mentioned above and you wind up being some weird person even though they're living the true free life. Even Americans are scared and not used to true freedom, and it mainly has to do with peer pressure and the whole mentally brainwashed collective of society.

That must be why they killed iraqis who had the balls to vote despite thier threats

What, you mean killing Iraqi's who voted in a puppet government? The Iraqi vote does nothing. The people we want to be in charge of Iraq will be in charge of Iraq. We're only going to make it out to look like it was the Iraqi populace that did it through their "democratic" voting.

The problem stems not from the fact that people want to be free, which most people do it is what they consider freedom. Like you said Freedom is not a American concept but it seems that only the Ameri can concept of freedom is acceptable. Do you think that those Islamic fundamentalists aren't fighting for freedom? They would define freedom as being outside the western orbit or cultural, and economic control. To them that is freedom, and many cultures around the world have seen what "the white man's burden" has done and our conception of freedom is not a universal maxim, that is where you and most Americans get confused. You believe freedom to be one thing, an individualist expression, but most cultures in the world are much more collectivist.


Yup.

So you're blaming our consumption?

You mean this unsustainably high level of American consumption which in turn = debt which = off shoring more jobs to lower prices= the cycle of economic violence.

Damn, at least someone gets it. I love hearing about consumerism threads where people feel proud about all the stuff they buy and basically make themselves look like idiots. So many damned Americans are in credit debt and it's hurting the country. Low prices really have hurt the economy because a low price makes things not look like much which means it's okay just to buy one more item because hey, it's "only" [insert lower price] so what can it hurt. It's like that one saying about taking one short step, then another, until the time you actually look back and see how far you've gone.

I'd much rather we get rid of these cheap labor processes so that items are freakin expensive so we wind up owning and buying less products. Get rid of credit cards too so that money actually means something. Go out and actually earn $20k+ to buy a car rather than putting it on your card and later filing for bankruptcy. Addictive consumer personalities are sickening not to mention it makes people power hungry. Yeah, buying less items that are more expensive it'll make us less powerful, but it's much better than having this whole system crumble which screws us all up completely even worse off than we'd be with weakened power. I'd much rather drive an average stable car than some suped up car with noz in it only to have the engine blow up due to the delicateness of it all despite it being a nice ride when it actually does work.


- N

anyways yes I do think that the insurgency represents most Iraqi's.....quit lying with your stats also......60% of registered Iraqi's voted

Lying my ass 8 million out of 14.2 million eligible voters participated, do the math ;)


most of whom were Shiite and Kurdish who had the most to gain.

Yes and they, as I said and you chose to ignore, make up 80% of the population in iraq. Is your problem here because the shia are deviant?


Turkey has allready said they may not Recognize Election Results in Kerkuk(oops sorry Kurds)

Turkey? did turkey vote? (oops sorry turkey)

....So great.......now the Sunni's will be the repressed minority in Iraq.Yet this is a good thing to you..

Did I say that was a good thing? However it is a better thing that the sunnis' should be an oppressed minority rather than the shias and kurds being repressed majorities simple math reveals. Repression is bad bad I would have to say that the repression of 20% of the populace is a lesser evil than repression of 80% of the populace. The sunnis have been promised a voice despite thier failure to participate in the vote so time will tell whether or not anyone is repressed.

.Feel free to answer me back after the Civil War this will cause in Iraq.

I am sure you are wringing your hands in gleeful anticipation.

]






Lying my ass 8 million out of 14.2 million eligible voters participated, do the math ;)




You said that 60% of Iraqi's(Not eligible or registered like you now say) voted...thats what i took issue with i will learn math if you learn to write:

Path said:

So at least 60% of iraqis voted despite the terror threat against those participating how many might have voted if there were no death threats from the "insurgents" 70%, 80% ? Do you still think the insurgents represent the majority of iraqis?




Is your problem here because the shia are deviant?


Sorry Shia's are Muslims and I dont disrespect them....and I have never called them deviates.......dont try to put words in my mouth( I even started a thread in which I give much credit to a great Shia Cleric)




Turkey? did turkey vote? (oops sorry turkey)


I am giving another reason why this election is going to cause a civil war......I know you are intelligent enough to understand what i meant

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=12253



I am sure you are wringing your hands in gleeful anticipation.[/QUOTE]


Yea thats what I want....more Muslims dead :rolleyes:.....gimmie a break Path stop sterotyping me you only sound combative

There was a Suni Islamic forum where several posters referred to the children of Suni/Shi'a marriages as "bastards". The hatred of Shites was palpable there.

Suni muslims seem to be the root cause of most of this problem with terrorists.

I have noticed that since Sunday, countless TV personas and TV programs like Face the Nation etc..... and print Newspapers like The New York Times etc.... have compared the Iraq turnout to U.S. national elections while purposely ignoring(they cant be this stupid can they?) that 80%-90% of our registered voters usually turn out. The problem in our country is that so few people bother to register, bringing our overall ratio numbers embarrassing low(for the worlds leading Democracy ;) ).

A Journalist in the Wasington Times (Howard Kurtz) in a article I read looked into the Iraqi numbers....... In a column of his he observed that "the 14 million figure is the number of registered Iraqis, while turnout is usually calculated using the number of eligible voters. The number of adults in Iraq is actually around 18 million.... which would drop the turnout figure to 45% which is a far cry from 70% originally reported not even a week ago (if, indeed, the 8 million number holds up which it doesnt appear to be doing either).

For example: If 200,000 residents of a city registered and 100,000 voted, that would seem like a sweet 50% voting turnout right?...... But if the adult population of the city was 300,000, then the actual turnout of 33% would look quite worse.Watch the numbers folks and do the math yourselves because the Press will have no problems throwing up "mirages"

A Journalist in the Wasington Times (Howard Kurtz) in a article I read looked into the Iraqi numbers....... In a column of his he observed that "the 14 million figure is the number of registered Iraqis, while turnout is usually calculated using the number of eligible voters. The number of adults in Iraq is actually around 18 million.... which would drop the turnout figure to 45% which is a far cry from 70% originally reported not even a week ago (if, indeed, the 8 million number holds up which it doesnt appear to be doing either).

For example: If 200,000 residents of a city registered and 100,000 voted, that would seem like a sweet 50% voting turnout right?...... But if the adult population of the city was 300,000, then the actual turnout of 33% would look quite worse.Watch the numbers folks and do the math yourselves because the Press will have no problems throwing up "mirages"

Here you go you can start here while this doesn't give an exact age breakdown you can clearly see that the population of Iraq over the age of 15 is around 15 million as of 2003. nationmaster (http://www.nationmaster.com/red/country/iz/People&b_cite=1)
here (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/iz/Age_distribution) are some age distribution charts, again not exact but you are still off.

Keep trying ;)

Sigh......not trying anything Path I only quoted what Kurtz said:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52895-2005Jan31.html



Stop your "spin" making it seem like I am against Iraqi freedom I am just aganist an election held under foreign occupation being called "legit"

Stop your "spin" making it seem like I am against Iraqi freedom I am just aganist an election held under foreign occupation being called "legit"


Surrenderer exactly how is presenting you with population stats spin?

I meant more along the lines of the "keep trying " comment as if I have a secret agenda......but never mind about that let me ask you this.......how do you think the US Goverment feels about their "favorite" getting trounced(Prime Minister Ayad Allawi) like he is by Shiite cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani ?Everyone knows he has close ties with Iran which to me would seem to be a nightmare for the US should they win. The partial totals so far show the Iraqi List headed by Allawi,(the secular Shiite and onetime CIA member)trailed behind with only 18 percent of the votes, despite an aggressive television ad campaign given with U.S. aid.(which was also unfair in my opinion) The election commission also released final vote tallies from overseas voters in eight countries, the United States, Britain, France, Iran, Syria, Jordan, the United Arab Emirates and Australia. The Sistani won of 44 percent of the 170,000 votes cast in those countries, the Kurds 18 percent and Allawi's list 12 percent. In U.S. voting, Allawi garnered just 5 percent of the vote.What does that mean to you?