Iran's part in the Arab-Israeli peace process

Xerxes

12-25-03, 12:49 AM

I don't care what some schmoe thinks. 'At least 300 million' means confirmed from the bank accounts who's existance and balance the public is aware of. And thats still a fucking lot. 300 million, was (if any interest to you,) last years estimate. The new estimate is in excess of 1 billion. If you care, and would like to know for reasons other than ad hominem, then look up the fucking details yourself. I won't serve the truth up on a silver platter to you, because I don't care. It was a friendly gesture.

Thats the problem with people on WE&P -- they don't want to know a truth or middle ground. Only to have their opinions acknowledged and lauded by everyone else.

You didn't say that, you said he had billions...nice retraction.

You don't have to have billion(s) - plural - to be a billionaire. If you have 1.3 billion, you are a billionaire. Do not try to paint me the wrong one.

LMFAO! considering that the W.Bank and Gaza don't even make in excess of 2 billion a year in GDP! That is so propaganda. Let's look from a reputable source shall we:

Dumbass,

His money comes from E-X-T-E-R-N-A-L sources. Foreign aid and that sort of thing. Oh, and please provide sources of irrelevant information, who's origins and legitimacy I may criticize, in support of your assertation that palestinians GDP is less than or equal to 2 billion. I'm really, really, really interested for personal growth reasons and such :rolleyes: not for amusement sakes. I find number figures a little less funny than you. Guess its time I got goofy off some NO2

otheadp

12-25-03, 12:52 AM

undecided:
it is very easy to take that 12B in aid out of context.
arab and Muslim countries make that money easily with the oil sales. israel on the other hand is alone against a huge hostile Middle East.

as far as foreign aid and arafat go, do your research buddy. arafat is a thief. he pockets at least 8% of the PA budget to himself. the rest of the money is allocated according to his wishes. and his wishes are usually about arafat, not about the 'palestinian people'.

and the GDP of Judea, Samaria and Gaza are irrelevant. it's about foreign aid. and it's ENORMOUS. where does it go? who knows...

now, back to topic.
in the public arena, Iran is a peaceful friendly country who's being threatened by the fanatic zionists with strikes on its peaceful nuclear reactors.

in the private arena, well, just check the link from my 1st post and see for yourself.
they're not on the 'axis of evil' for nothing, u know.

Vortexx

12-25-03, 04:42 AM

Palestine is like a walnut being cracked in the hand of two armwrestlers, both think they must win the game instead of shake hands and even an optimistic believer in negotiations starts to believe that it is about time that one of the two side makes a final push to end this drama (i don't care who), happy newyear!

Now where did I leave my old rusty crusaders sword....

Ghassan Kanafani

12-25-03, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by Xerxes
Thats the problem with people on WE&P -- they don't want to know a truth or middle ground. Only to have their opinions acknowledged and lauded by everyone else.

Then it seems you have find your place of destiny, afterall absolutely nothing you have asserted here in regard to Arafat's finances has any backup whatsoever ?

What, Major-General Aharon Zeevi-Farkash estimated 1.3 B and now we all know we all just have to accept is at truth, reasonable and so on ?

Why don't you give example, and not let yourself fall under your own criticism ? Show us the 1.3 B please.

Would it be due to Foreign aid and that sort of thing ?

Please become a little aware of Arafat's position in the Arab world, or perhaps maybe Europeans sponsor him, certainly Arabs will see quite a few participants in the race for cash to annoy zionists with. Should we elaborate on this, or do you think you can figure this issue revolving Arafat, the militant fractions and the Arab world yourself ?

Originally posted by otheadp
it is very easy to take that 12B in aid out of context.
arab and Muslim countries make that money easily with the oil sales. israel on the other hand is alone against a huge hostile Middle East.

How exactly would that aid be taken out of context in compare to any other aid that Palestinians, or even non-nationalist Palestinian fractions receive ?

First of perhaps you can show the exact transactions between nations and the Palestinians in question, simply taken the fact that there are some with plenty of money and that they dont like zionists, is something else than the clear billions zionist received
on governmental basis .

Would they pay, I am sure they would pay somebody, but Arafat isn't exactly everybody's best friend and there are other contendants for the price money as you know. Nevertheless I want you to point it out, because that is the status the billions from US-government have. They are known and obvious, not a theory yet to be proved.

But it is not all about government, on both sides. The essence ofcourse is that people are helping what they perceive as their own, that is why there is huge governmental sponsoring from the US to Israel, and that is why the private and business sections are at least just as lucrative. Yes there are oil-magnates that like to put in a buck now and then, should we lay it out to compare it to what the zionist state receives from their cousins ?

I would not mind such a compare, I am sure you can understand why.

is a thief. he pockets at least 8% of the PA budget to himself.

Did you conclude that by dividing 2.4 B by 300 M ? Im sorry, but putting the number into a math formula with a result in percentages, is not any of any value as a proof of theft.

Do not get me wrong I am not arguing the conclusion, I am arguing how you produced it.

and the GDP of Judea, Samaria and Gaza are irrelevant. it's about foreign aid. and it's ENORMOUS. where does it go? who knows...

Al Aqsa brigades, LMFAO. Have you seen their million dollar equipment, they have their own T-SHIRTS nowadays .

How enormous is it, from where does it come ? Or we can do simply like you and assume it comes from somewhere and that it has to be absolutely huge, and imply the use of millions to be the driving force behind hand-made bombs going off in some cafe-bar. I mean who could ever compare that moneywise to tanks, planes and helicopters, right ?

And please, the terms you use for the regions are rhetorical beyond any doubt (Im sure that needs no further explenation) , and nicely point to the expansionist discussion that we are having elsewhere.

in the public arena, Iran is a peaceful friendly country who's being threatened by the fanatic zionists with strikes on its peaceful nuclear reactors.

in the private arena, well, just check the link from my 1st post and see for yourself.
they're not on the 'axis of evil' for nothing, u know.

It is absolutely amazing how you distinguish 'public' and 'private', I have seen this phenomena with a few other zionist explenations of events. Sometimes it seems that their propaganda is so good, they get fooled by it themselves and identify it as something working against their own visions. The effects of an overdosis I suppose.

Axis of evil and PRIVATE ARENA ? What are you talking about dude ?

No in the PUBLIC arena they are not this peacefull friendly country being threatened by zionists, people couldnt even link their relationship with zionists simply because their whole image is being filled by their supposed 'fundamentalism' , and the 'axis of evil' you would have been speaking about, there isnt even place left for zionists, be it in a beneficious or damaging sense.

How the hell did you conclude the this idea of Iran's public image ? How the hell did you allow it to co-exist with the entire 'axis of evil' show ?

Like you said on earlier : not everyone can afford the indifference, my friend..

The lack is on your side, as you correctly point out with this sentence. Doesn't mean you can replace the lack with imaginary content, the entire public image of Iran issue was a very, very bad imagination.

they desire the end of the independance (if you call this independance) of the Jewish state. the only country in modern history where Jews rule themselves.

I don't think anyone would mind if these 'Jews' would rule themselves elsewhere, like in NYC for instance. Im sure there are others that would mind, but that's ok with me. I have no problems with a little shift in positions between the parties, do you ? If so, why ?

they want to destroy the only force on earth that will fight to the death to protect Jews.

Another question of 'Jews', when will you become aware that rhetorics around this term have no value whatsoever as an argument against any points ?

Just another excerpt from that lovely Sharon interview :

Thanks to us, they now also hate all those Feinschmecker Jews
in Paris, London, New York, Frankfurt and Montreal, in all their
holes. At last they hate all these nice Yids, who say they are
different from us, that they are not Israeli thugs, that they are
different Jews, clean and decent. Soon their palaces will be smeared with the slogan: Yids, go to Palestine!

And thats when the zionist state starts caring about them in a positive sense. No, the zionist state is not willing to find to death to protect Jews, it only fights to death to protect itself as a zionist state.

they don't particularly care about a "one state 2 peoples" solution either. they are not secular... they are Islamist extremists. for them it's not about the "stopping repression of palestinians". it's about "liberation of al-Quds (Jerusalem) from Jews". they can't stand the fact that there is a Jewish country in existence, especially in the Middle East.

1) 'Islamist extremists' , these rhetorical lables have no argumentative value, please become aware of this.

2) You are right they do not want a 2 state solution, not only they do not want this, nobody wants this in the end, this has little to do with the fundamentalism you propose, as it extends Islam. I believe we already covered all your enemies once, let's not become repetative I know how much you hate that. :D

I do not see how this information of their desires however is of any additional value to the already concluded goal of dismanteling the zionist state.

otheadp

12-25-03, 08:43 AM

about Arafat's finances, i didn't calculate or make up the numbers. it came from a EU report and the current finance minister in the PA himself. he's actually a good guy who's trying to make reforms. or maybe it's all a show, i don't know.

.
quoting Sharon won't help you at all. haven't we discussed his quotes already?

.
re: public/private arena
you're nitpicking wording, while you perfectly know what i mean.
that's kind of petty.

You are right they do not want a 2 state solution, not only they do not want this, nobody wants this in the end, this has little to do with the fundamentalism you propose, as it extends Islam.

so, nobody wants that,
and this idea of the destruction of Israel extends Islam?
thanks for pointing that out.

as usual, it's the surrounding hostile arab/Muslim countries who decide for the palestinians what the palestinians want and need.

fine. we'll see the conflict drag for another coupla decades.

Ghassan Kanafani

12-25-03, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by otheadp
about Arafat's finances, i didn't calculate or make up the numbers. it came from a EU report and the current finance minister in the PA himself.

Nevermind the calculation, it seemed I made an error with it myself. Please do point me to any comments made by the minister in question, I seem to have missed them.

In anyways, the point of my remark was not as much any formula, but the fact nothing argumentative has been presented in order to conclude 'theft' . Anything a minister might have said, can be serve as a certain basis though, but again I would like to see how exactly this conclusion can be drawn.

he's actually a good guy who's trying to make reforms. or maybe it's all a show, i don't know.

Let's not make value judgements when we know that we conflict in the definitions of that what is valuable. Afterall we do have to deal with the issue of bias, weither the bias is justified or not.

quoting Sharon won't help you at all. haven't we discussed his quotes already?

I am not in need for any help, I am only pointing you out how disregard of Jewish interests (Feinschmeckers for instance) are manifest.

This in opposition to your assertion that the zionist states fights to death for Jews.

Anyways Sharon's quotes were not irrelevant in our previous discussions, nor were the same parts that were relevant there as much emphasized as the parts relevant here. Let's not generalize everything and pretend to be stupid, shall we ?

re: public/private arena
you're nitpicking wording, while you perfectly know what i mean.
that's kind of petty.

Nitpicking ? You need an introduction to politicology course dude, this was the most relevant part in all the statements you made on this thread. And while you're taking courses, please take a introduction to rhetorics as well, it may help you discover why I am not easily convinced by much of your argumentation.

Please read what I have written there, and respond to it instead of doing away with it by labeling nitpicking. If you are convinced that my conclusions rest on misunderstanding or misinterpreting, then please explain.

so, nobody wants that,

fine. we'll see the conflict drag for another coupla decades.

Untill the zionist state is dismantled, let us be honest here, there can never be really peace for a variety of reasons. The most relevant one being Israel's position within western imperialism, the most profound one being the lack of any justice.

I wonder how long this conflict will drag on, I would say it will heavily escalate before a few decades, and I would say palestinians will be the centre of this escalations, weither offensive or defensive.

and this idea of the destruction of Israel extends Islam?
thanks for pointing that out.

Again, there are serious implications when you speak of the 'destruction of Israel' that are not the case, that function perfectly in rhetorical sense to your argument.

Ofcourse it extends Islam when half of Palestine was Christian, when the 130.000 from Golan included only a marginal ammount of Muslims, when we look at the history of Lebanon, and so on.

I thought you were very well aware of this, perhaps somehow you seek confirmation to benefit any point you wish to make ? If so, what point ? That it concerns Arabs and not merely Muslims ? As a matter of fact, it concerns all indigenous inhabitants of the peninsula, both the 'allies' as the ''rejects' ,it is all policy of divide and conquer.

as usual, it's the surrounding hostile arab/Muslim countries who decide for the palestinians what the palestinians want and need.

I agree in sofar that the Arab nations used and still use the Palestinian people, however they do not use the Palestinian cause. Israel is a superpower, it's policy and philosophy are known, and it's position within western imperialism is more than obvious. Indeed they should not decide for the Palestinians (btw the PA doesnt represent Arab desires that well, I thought you were aware of Arafat's position, both actual as historical) but they sure as hell should decide for themselves. They are threatened by Israel, and for as long Israel is a zionist state they will remain threatened by it.

Undecided

12-25-03, 01:59 PM

Yet I am to care what an Israeli officer, with obvious bias says? In stark contradiction to a neutral source? Please...

'At least 300 million' means confirmed from the bank accounts who's existance and balance the public is aware of.

Yes, and so logicaly that's all we can say he has. Unless you delve into the world of a conspiracy theorist.

And thats still a fucking lot. 300 million, was (if any interest to you,) last years estimate.

It is a lot of money, surely. But to make Arafat seem like some evil man because he has a lot of money is not very capitalistic. Are you a capitalist by happens chance? If so then this very conversation goes against all your ethics. Also how do we know that most of that money wasn't generated before 1994?

The new estimate is in excess of 1 billion.

Your telling me in sound mind a body that Arafat's wallet ballooned by $1 billion in year? LOL! Ok there.

If you care, and would like to know for reasons other than ad hominem, then look up the fucking details yourself. I won't serve the truth up on a silver platter to you, because I don't care.

Well then ad hom is the only logical fallacy you know of, because you asserted that he has this billion, thus the onus is on you to prove it to me, I don't and I won't search for something to justify your claims. I mean it should be relatively easy to find if you are so confident in your analysis, or the other alternative you’re talking nonsense.

Thats the problem with people on WE&P -- they don't want to know a truth or middle ground. Only to have their opinions acknowledged and lauded by everyone else.

This coming from you... the one who rejects a neutral source in favor of a Israeli officers [/b]estimate.

[b]You don't have to have billion(s) - plural - to be a billionaire. If you have 1.3 billion, you are a billionaire. Do not try to paint me the wrong one.

He doesn't have billions, you haven't been able to prove or back that assessment by a neutral source. Also you have failed to show me where the money came from, how much of it was foreign (as in real aid, not as personal grants to Arafat himself), and where the money is located.

His money comes from E-X-T-E-R-N-A-L sources. Foreign aid and that sort of thing.

You know this how? Can you show me the stats to back this statement up? Which "external" countries are the biggest offenders?

Oh, and please provide sources of irrelevant information, who's origins and legitimacy I may criticize, in support of your assertation that palestinians GDP is less than or equal to 2 billion.

Surely:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

Palestinian GDP= $2.4 billion

Do the math on my outrageously bias source.

Dumbass,

Xerxes

12-25-03, 04:45 PM

Yet I am to care what an Israeli officer, with obvious bias says? In stark contradiction to a neutral source? Please...

I'm a 17 year old Calgarian, dumbass. And everybody has a bias, though mine is not as slanted as yours.

Yes, and so logicaly that's all we can say he has. Unless you delve into the world of a conspiracy theorist.

You know nothing. Logically, we can say that he has at *least* that much. Logically, we can confirm beyond a doubt. Statistically, using the same math that predicted the columbia disaster and other sources, we can say that he has much, much, much more. In excess of a billion.

It is a lot of money, surely. But to make Arafat seem like some evil man because he has a lot of money is not very capitalistic. Are you a capitalist by happens chance? If so then this very conversation goes against all your ethics. Also how do we know that most of that money wasn't generated before 1994?

Who said anything about evil? I think Arafat's a crooked hypocrite. He claims to care about the situation of the Palestinian people, and at the same time, uses hundred dollar bills to wipe his ass. :) Thats money he could be putting towards feeding the people, buying them education and healthcare, SOLVING their own problems instead of plotting how the next suicide bomber can make life just as miserable for the Israeli's. Thats what they've been doing for the last 50 years, with 4 joint, major attempts at completely destroying Israel. Had they spent their money in the places I mentioned earlier, they would be just as well off as the Israeli's.

We know that an excess of 1 billion wasn't generated before 1994 because he had no sources. Even if he is a good businessman, you can't do shit without capitol.

Your telling me in sound mind a body that Arafat's wallet ballooned by $1 billion in year? LOL! Ok there.

He's been piling up money in the cracks of the walls...the foundation shakes, new information is revealed to show that he's more loaded than we thought.

Do you actually believe he'd come clean about his wealth when what, ~30% of 'his people' live in poverty?

I mean it should be relatively easy to find if you are so confident in your analysis, or the other alternative you’re talking nonsense.

Its all over the news. I pulled you out the first link from google, and if you're really curious to know more, than you can easily do the same. I won't bring it out on a platter.

The point is that you asked me not for the truth, but for a source that you could criticize and ROTFLYAO at. Its not the truth that you're after because it doesn't serve you're purposes and you're unwilling (even with few reprecussions) to admit that you're wrong in you're defence of Arafats handling of the money. He shouldn't even have 300 million.

Another thing is that if you've ever been to the west bank and gaza(which I have,) you would know how cheap things are there. 300 million american dollars may as well be 10x as much. And thats his personal spending money. The PA pays for all political expenses such as flights, meals and that sort of thing. No questions asked. I guess his wife needs money for the lavish life she lives 3000 km away from 'her people.'

He doesn't have billions, you haven't been able to prove or back that assessment by a neutral source. Also you have failed to show me where the money came from, how much of it was foreign (as in real aid, not as personal grants to Arafat himself), and where the money is located.

I don't need to prove myself to you. If you're interested in knowing, go read. At the very least, accept the possibility. Its something that all great historians do, yet not one of the things you've been able to accomplish.

You know this how? Can you show me the stats to back this statement up? Which "external" countries are the biggest offenders?

Palestinians have received aid from all over the world. Numbers do not interest me. The need to quantify and manipulate numbers in your argument shows a flaw in the quality of your logic. All that matters is that Arafat is a snatch when it comes to money, and the 300 million minimum we have agreed on is proof of that.

Palestinian GDP= $2.4 billion

Odd.

You said the Palestinian GDP did not exceed 2 billion.

Either way, I wasn't asking for a source. I was scoffing.

esd

12-25-03, 06:03 PM

Iran is doing for palestinians the same thing USA did for afghan mujaheddin in the 80s, it's a "bleeding" strategy - fund some 3rd person so your enemy wastes his resolve and resources. From the current economic and political climate in Israel (as perceived in the news and on the Internet - so I could be wrong), and the fact that Israel NEEDS this assistance I would say that this strategy is working.
As for US help - it is simply advantegous for the US government (friendly power in the Middle East, US jewish lobby), however Israel's actions are making this support more and more costly economically as well as politically. If Israel pushes too far US support may cease and their(Israel's) nukes can only deter enemies, not sustain their economy and resource base.
My prediction: the situation will continue to simmer, but the possibility of a major crisis is growing.

Undecided

12-25-03, 07:22 PM

Care?

And everybody has a bias, though mine is not as slanted as yours.

Oh yes mine is so slanted considering I choose not to believe in the Israeli military analysis of Arafats finances... yes oh so bias. And considering that there is a neutral source to suggest otherwise...of course.

You know nothing.

And you proved it let me tell you.

Logically, we can say that he has at *least* that much. Logically, we can confirm beyond a doubt.

Exactly my point, to say he has more is nothing more then mere speculation and verge conspiracy theory. I don't care for maybes in this situation.

Statistically, using the same math that predicted the columbia disaster and other sources, we can say that he has much, much, much more. In excess of a billion.

What stats? What math? How do you know them to be true, have you done the equations? How do u know that Arafat has those billions, when a $300 million figure exists which is proven to exist?

Thats money he could be putting towards feeding the people, buying them education and healthcare, SOLVING their own problems instead of plotting how the next suicide bomber can make life just as miserable for the Israeli's.

Do you really think that money could really do much a difference when the Israeli military was the one who destroyed the P.A's security services? Or when they seize land, and assests of the P.A? The Suicide bomber to my knowledge is more funded by non P.A organizations in Palestine. Also lest we forget that the Palestinians have a right to defences as well as you do. The question is foreign support for terrorists. Sure Iran is one, and the US is another. Who kills more...IDF.

Thats what they've been doing for the last 50 years, with 4 joint, major attempts at completely destroying Israel.

Yes Arafat and his massive armies pouring into Israel proper. Also you are mis-characterizing the destruction of Israel, it's not the ppl. It's the state, there is a difference and I know it will escape you.

Had they spent their money in the places I mentioned earlier, they would be just as well off as the Israeli's.

WHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!! You’re living in some Disneyland or something?

We know that an excess of 1 billion wasn't generated before 1994 because he had no sources. Even if he is a good businessman, you can't do shit without capitol.

There were no sources before 1994? Omg your digressing more and more into irrelevancy faster then I thought. So then pre-1994 Arafat was begging on the streets of Cairo with a can? Please...

He's been piling up money in the cracks of the walls...the foundation shakes, new information is revealed to show that he's more loaded than we thought.

Then you assert, not what is real. Yet to prove this.

Do you actually believe he'd come clean about his wealth when what, ~30% of 'his people' live in poverty?

Of course I don't...but don't u think his ppl already know he is loaded?
:rolleyes: They aren't Israeli's they listen to reason.

Its all over the news. I pulled you out the first link from google, and if you're really curious to know more, than you can easily do the same. I won't bring it out on a platter.

Then your argument falls apart, the onus is not on me. If you don't understand that, then Dumbass is well deserved on your part.

Its not the truth that you're after because it doesn't serve you're purposes and you're unwilling (even with few reprecussions) to admit that you're wrong in you're defence of Arafats handling of the money.

Yes it is the truth that I found; $300 million is truth, because it can proved. $1.3 billion is speculation, so whom here is missing the truth? I am wrong...where, how, show.

He shouldn't even have 300 million.

And you can make that value statement because... your a perfect one I assume? Please... another fallicious argument.

Its all over the news.

Haven't heard anything about it... care to show me. Again you’re asserting something you should easy prove it to me.

Another thing is that if you've ever been to the west bank and gaza(which I have,) you would know how cheap things are there. 300 million american dollars may as well be 10x as much. And thats his personal spending money. The PA pays for all political expenses such as flights, meals and that sort of thing. No questions asked. I guess his wife needs money for the lavish life she lives 3000 km away from 'her people.'

There are so many irrelevant points, and fallacies committed in that it makes me want to cry.

I don't need to prove myself to you.

Ok what are you talking about here child? I wasn't asking to prove yourself...whatever that means. I was asking you to prove your position, because right now it's mere speculation on your part.

At the very least, accept the possibility.

I do... but I won't accept it as truth, there is difference. And you obviously are too young to realize that.

Palestinians have received aid from all over the world.

Then it's not aid...semantic play on your part eh?

Numbers do not interest me.

Ok now you sound exactly like a Hitler youth, Ich interessiere nicht mich für Tatsachen!

The need to quantify and manipulate numbers in your argument shows a flaw in the quality of your logic.

Where have you manipulated anything? What are you talking about seriously?

Odd.

You said the Palestinian GDP did not exceed 2 billion.

With a -22% growth rate in GDP, soon enough it will.

15ofthe19

12-25-03, 07:53 PM

For those of you who bleed for the Palestinians, here's a little light reading.

http://www.worldandi.com/newhome/public/2003/may/clpub.asp

Undecided

12-25-03, 08:02 PM

And why don't you peek at who you seem to defend, or neglect to show:

From Jenin with love (http://home.online.no/~dagoj/jenin-01.jpg)

Israel and human rights...a champion among nations (http://www.iacboston.org/images/jenin-arrests2.jpg)

We care about your property (http://www.nodo50.org/csca/palestina/imagenes_palestina/jenin-04-02.jpg)

They burned themselves...I swear (http://www.arabcomint.com/jenin%20horror4.jpg)

Let's avoid the stupid appeal to emotions, and western-centrism please, it doesn't help anyone's argument.

Xerxes

12-25-03, 08:05 PM

That first guy has a really small dick. :D You can't blame the suicide bomber for that! No wonder he killed himself.

Undecided

12-25-03, 08:09 PM

That first guy has a really small dick. You can't blame the suicide bomber for that! No wonder he killed himself.

You're sick, that was child! And if he was a suicide bomber there wouldn't be anything left on his body, you know that they put the bomb around their waists. This shows to me that Israeli's have acutally de-humanized the Arabs so much that you can actually pole fun at it.

Xerxes

12-25-03, 08:21 PM

I don't discriminate when it comes to poking fun at shit. Its a bad habit, but I'd rather poke fun than pretend that I'm some kind of a humanitarian like you that can change the world by willing.

If you burst into flames, I wouldn't be able to contain myself.

Undecided

12-25-03, 08:30 PM

So then you shouldn't have a problem poking fun at auschwitz then should you?

Its a bad habit, but I'd rather poke fun than pretend that I'm some kind of a humanitarian like you that can change the world by willing.

Go ahead make fun... (http://www.holocaust-uddannelse.dk/images/billeder/auschwitz-birkenau02.jpg)

Don't talk stupidity because it can bite you in the ass.

If you burst into flames, I wouldn't be able to contain myself.

That could be a joke...

Xerxes

12-25-03, 08:52 PM

Can you not taste the irony??

You titled the first one 'from Jenin with love' -- I click on the link to find a guy with an inch long (err..short) erection, and his head blown off!

I laughed through certain parts of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553272535/002-5420562-0079215?v=glance">Night.</a Because they were funny..

You see, Undecided, unlike you, I am not insincere. If somethings funny I laugh. The only time I'll try to contain it is out of the privacy of my home where people are not so up front with their emotions because they seem innapropriate. Those are the type that have the real beast inside.

Half of the charm is surprise and irony. Had you titled your aushwitz link something like 'summer in Manhattan,' I'd be laughing a bit more.

Undecided

12-25-03, 08:59 PM

Obviously you're family or you haven't felt the holocaust, nor have they had to see this:

See this (http://www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/graphics/auschwitz-cremat2.jpg)

I have talked to a survivor once and to her it wasn't funny at all, she would slap u in the face if you were to laugh at anything remotely close to the holocaust.

You titled the first one 'from Jenin with love'

Indeed I did for the title not for comical reasons, but because the news that comes out the Levant is so slanted that it wouldn't surprise me if were it presented like that, also it offers the viewer a contrast. So when do I expect some holocaustal jokes? Some about the ovens, or these kids:

.These kids (http://www.leksikon.org/images/auschwitz.jpg)

Common you don't as you say, discriminate when it comes to poking fun at shit.

I'll be waiting

Xerxes

12-25-03, 09:52 PM

What you don't understand, Undecided, is its the irony which I laugh at. Not the context. The holocaust was horrible, and I really do feel for the Palestinian people.

I know you'd like to paint me the evil and callous one who can't feel, but that is not the case. I have a much wider range of emotions that you.

Besides laughing, I also cried through many parts of Night, FYI, and my maternal grandparents, being Jewish Europeans suffered *greatly* during the holocaust. Many of their friends died in concentration camps and the only reason they were saved was because they pretended to be catholic.

My grandmother lived next door to the Scholls of the 'white rose' and formed a very close relationship with them. They were later sent to Dachau.

And -- It was a distant family friend of the 'Heihs' - a very promiment family in Austria - Shindler, who saved thousands of Jews. Hard to believe, But its true that I have much closer connections to the Holocaust than you will ever.

No, I do not discriminate, nor do I laugh at everything morbid as you would have people believe.

Give the link an ironic title, when I'm not expecting it, and I'll shit my pants. Don't try to paint yourself superior by bombarding me with shit.

Undecided

12-25-03, 10:26 PM

Don't try to paint yourself superior by bombarding me with shit.

That is all I really needed to hear, not only could you not defend your former position, but you now paint yourself the victim. Well you are the victim, of your own arrogance and it seems it's a deserved one. You bombarded yourself with all this shit; I just wanted to see how stupid your reasoning could get before we enter into the world of the cognitive surrender. And looks like we have achieved it. Oh and just a note:

they were saved was because they pretended to be catholic.

Important for future reference...;)

I know you'd like to paint me the evil and callous one who can't feel, but that is not the case. I have a much wider range of emotions that you.

Ehm...no you've proved your callousness, read you're former posts. You have to yet show how I have less emotion then you? I would have to be a rock.

Where are the jokes?

Xerxes

12-25-03, 11:40 PM

That is all I really needed to hear, not only could you not defend your former position, but you now paint yourself the victim.

How was I unsuccessful at defending myself? Is this another one of those occasions where you pretend to win, and be consumed by your delusions?

Ehm...no you've proved your callousness, read you're former posts. You have to yet show how I have less emotion then you? I would have to be a rock.

To you, I am callous, because you are too stupid to see the humor.

I have a wider range of emotions than you because I know how to laugh. You think emotion includes only crying and pity? Thats the boring half. You haven't proved yourself as having the ability to do either.

Where are the jokes?

here's a refresh:

Give the link an ironic title, when I'm not expecting it, and I'll shit my pants.

Again, you're too moronic to realize that its not the context which makes a picture funny, but the irony associated with it. This is about the fourth time I've told you. Did I say anything about the other 3 pictures in the original post - even some were even more gruesome?

no.

thats because they did not contain the same irony. Here's another friendly gesture:

i·ro·ny ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-n, r-)
n. pl. i·ro·nies

1.
1. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
2. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
3. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.
2.
1. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).
2. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.

Ghassan Kanafani

12-26-03, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by Xerxes
I'm a 17 year old Calgarian, dumbass.

Boker Tov, Ma Nishma Coshi ?

With this you try to say that your logical errors and biased assumptions can be explained by the fact you barely got out of puberty ?

And everybody has a bias, though mine is not as slanted as yours

In continuance of the new method of approach based on our recent discovery, I have to inform you of the fact that absolutist phrases such as 'everybody has bias' have no value whatsoever in a relative world, and also do i have to point you to the fact that consciously or unconsciously you already pointed out this irrelevancy by relating your own bias to that of Undecided.

Now let's get back to the point, do you think you can find anything more bias than the words of an ISRAELI OFFICIAL ?

Sofar there is no reason whatsoever to assume you are right in any way regarding the assertion of the 1.3 Billion of Arafat, can you understand this ?

You know nothing. Logically, we can say that he has at *least* that much. Logically, we can confirm beyond a doubt. Statistically, using the same math that predicted the columbia disaster and other sources, we can say that he has much, much, much more. In excess of a billion.

How 'can we say' that ? You have offered no argument whatsoever that concludes this, what is this math you speak of and who gives a damn what disasters it predicts ?

He claims to care about the situation of the Palestinian people

You should relate it too how much 'others' care of the fate of Palestinian people, it might bring you to a realistic perspective of this world, and not quickly jump up and claim he doesnt care. Nobody cares, so please refrain from this absolutist bullshit.

SOLVING their own problems instead of plotting how the next suicide bomber can make life just as miserable for the Israeli's.

Thats right 300 million (Oh im sorry 1.3 Billion) are spend on belts right ? Also, do not be so quick to assume everybody agrees with this premis of yours that everything can be solved from Palestinian side, for it is not just a Palestinian problem you see ? Palestinians didn't come to Europe and collect Yids, or drag Moroccans into their land to have someone to chase them away from their homes.

Thats what they've been doing for the last 50 years, with 4 joint, major attempts at completely destroying Israel.

Who are we talking about, Palestinians or all the Arabic nations together ? Man your rhetorics are just cheap, but then again you just got out of puberty.

Had they spent their money in the places I mentioned earlier, they would be just as well off as the Israeli's.

Í'm sorry I though you said you were 17, perhaps you meant to say 7 ?

Let me the quote a respons for you from elsewhere :

WHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!! You’re living in some Disneyland or something?

We know that an excess of 1 billion wasn't generated before 1994 because he had no sources.

YOU know absolute shit, how about MAKING AN ARGUMENT instead of making assumptions of what 'we know' .

new information is revealed to show that he's more loaded than we thought.

And you have contact on regular basis with these aliens that providing all this 'new information' ?

Its all over the news. I pulled you out the first link from google, and if you're really curious to know more, than you can easily do the same. I won't bring it out on a platter.

You'll let the aliens handle the platters, right ? Did they hook you up with their own news channel too ?

Its not the truth that you're after because it doesn't serve you're purposes and you're unwilling (even with few reprecussions) to admit that you're wrong in you're defence of Arafats handling of the money. He shouldn't even have 300 million.

It is not the truth YOU are after because all you aim for is the conclusion even the most capitalist would make which is that Arafat has far toomuch and his people far too little. To do this you base yourself on ridiculous fabrications of his wealth made by an Israeli general-major. When these fabrications are argued, and when proof is being requested, you fall back like a rhetorical little dick to the basic of your claim, which is how greedy Arafat is, even if we would be spekaing of 300 M instead of your and Zeevi-Farkash's fabrications.

And the whole issue is that there is no relevancy whatsoever to this entire picture of Arafat you wish to present, due to the general monetary positions of politicians in situations of war and dictatorial or monarchial societies which are not exactly exceptional in the region Arafat resides.

Please let me note that the entire monetary debate from a zionist perspective concentrated on Arafat is rather ridiculous, we all know where the serious money is at don't we ? On the contrary, you most probably don't.

Palestinians have received aid from all over the world. Numbers do not interest me. The need to quantify and manipulate numbers in your argument shows a flaw in the quality of your logic.

On the contrary, your absolutist view that denies all relevancy to relative matters shows your logic is UNDERDEVELOPPED. Thats why you don't care for numbers, because numbers might show a 'relative'' position, and that you cnanot have because all your conclusions are based on the fact THERE IS existance of aid.

Its very interesting to see how the most rhetorical nation on this planet can produce such failures in rhetorics as yourself, please you to, go follow a course, oh I forgot you aren't allowed into university yet are you ? Well you just have to wait a little while, perhaps your irrelevant and uneducated expressions that lack all logic can wait along with you ?

How was I unsuccessful at defending myself?

That would have been perfectly demonstrated in this post .

Al Lo Davar

Undecided

12-26-03, 01:26 PM

Indeed he did very well on his semantic plays, and his ad homs, and appeals to emotions, appeal to belief, appeal to ridicule (whole argument), and major Relativist Fallacy...
:( But don't you know we are ignorant in the face of all this.

How was I unsuccessful at defending myself?

You should read Ghassan's post, it was amusing.

Is this another one of those occasions where you pretend to win, and be consumed by your delusions?

For this is the first time I talk to you, also win? Sorry I am much to mature to "win" on sci...get a life if that is your goal!

To you, I am callous, because you are too stupid to see the humor.

http://home.online.no/~dagoj/jenin-01.jpg

Then I am a stupid moron then, because I don't see the humour.

You think emotion includes only crying and pity?

Well to tell you the truth, I've been laughing at you're amazing cognitive surrender.

Did I say anything about the other 3 pictures in the original post - even some were even more gruesome?

No, but non were more grusome...

Go, go, play dig you're hole, your so predictable...your going to come back here soyou can post last and....lol....win *crying*

Vortexx

12-26-03, 04:12 PM

peace-process?

otheadp

12-26-03, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by esd
Iran is doing for palestinians the same thing USA did for afghan mujaheddin in the 80s, it's a "bleeding" strategy - fund some 3rd person so your enemy wastes his resolve and resources. From the current economic and political climate in Israel (as perceived in the news and on the Internet - so I could be wrong), and the fact that Israel NEEDS this assistance I would say that this strategy is working.
As for US help - it is simply advantegous for the US government (friendly power in the Middle East, US jewish lobby), however Israel's actions are making this support more and more costly economically as well as politically. If Israel pushes too far US support may cease and their(Israel's) nukes can only deter enemies, not sustain their economy and resource base.
My prediction: the situation will continue to simmer, but the possibility of a major crisis is growing.

a very good analysis.
in essense it is not the palestinians who are continuing with the "struggle" but the surrounding countries. Iraq was one of them. look at them now :D :cool:
but the focus is not on those countries, but on the "poor defenseless little palestinians".
it's a genius tactic.
so when Israel retaliates (as it did with Syria a little over a month ago when Israeli air force planes bombed some terrorist training camps in Syria) it looks like they're attacking peaceful innocent nations.

Hezballah is a strategic tool of Iran (supported by Syria) to cause trouble for Israel, which they do all the time.

without Iran and Syria, Hezballah will die.
palestinian terror will also die.

otheadp

12-26-03, 04:58 PM

ok there, undecided
i read through your posts, they were full with at least some of the fallacies you mentioned... let's not be hypocritical here.

another thing, i don't know why you're taking the Jenin stuff personally (are you an arab or a 'palestinian'? if no, then Jenin has nothing to do with you) but don't post those things about the Holocaust. Xerxes is not the only one here that might take offence.

by putting up those links you did the same thing as you did with the fallacies. you bitched about him committing the fallacies but then went and committed them yourself.

not very good argument skills.

as far as your arguments go, they're completely off topic here.

those 300,000,000 that arafat has (the 1.3B is estimated by a EU report, but let's not use that number, just for fun), doesn't really matter how much of that money is going into explosive belts. the thing is that it is not going to 'his people'. it is going into some secret Swiss bank accounts.

as i posted before (it was ignored aparently), he keeps 8% of the annual PA budget to himself, and the rest is distributed only after it's been approved by him. that's called 'corruption' and the complete opposite of 'due process'
it's just the tip of the ice berg.

but he's arafat, so it's ok... right? sure, let's have one set of standards for arafat, and another for israel.
that seems to be the "standard" anyway.

Undecided

12-26-03, 05:10 PM

i read through your posts, they were full with at least some of the fallacies you mentioned... let's not be hypocritical here.

Who are you firstly... none of those were directed to you, so I would ask nicely to stick to your own discussions. And secondly my arguments are not based on fallacies, and rhetoric’s.

another thing, i don't know why you're taking the Jenin stuff personally (are you an arab or a 'palestinian'? if no, then Jenin has nothing to do with you)

So because I am not an Arab I have no interest in their plight? Using that logic the US should cease its aid program to Israel, they aren't "Jews" why should they care? Let's avoid stupidity ok?

but don't post those things about the Holocaust. Xerxes is not the only one here that might take offence.

I posted the things about the holocaust because immature Xerxes said this:
I don't discriminate when it comes to poking fun at shit.
, so then tell me why isn't he making fun of the pics I presented? He is not a person who discriminates? Are you actually to tell me different? I am still waiting for those jokes...and if you take offence, then blame Xerxes he was the one who gave me the outlet.

by putting up those links you did the same thing as you did with the fallacies. you bitched about him committing the fallacies but then went and committed them yourself.

Against 15 yes, against Xerxes no, because the premise of that debate was he callousness, and thus I could do what I wanted. There are no facts in that debate, as thus I could do basically whatever I wanted to.

not very good argument skills.

Thanks for pointing it out.
:rolleyes:

as far as your arguments go, they're completely off topic here.

LOL, let's see this. The topic of the thread is Iran's part in the Arab-Israeli peace process
yet your saying this:

those 300,000,000 that arafat has (the 1.3B is estimated by a EU report, but let's not use that number, just for fun), doesn't really matter how much of that money is going into explosive belts. the thing is that it is not going to 'his people'. it is going into some secret Swiss bank accounts.

as i posted before (it was ignored aparently), he keeps 8% of the annual PA budget to himself, and the rest is distributed only after it's been approved by him. that's called 'corruption' and the complete opposite of 'due process'
it's just the tip of the ice berg.

but he's arafat, so it's ok... right? sure, let's have one set of standards for arafat, and another for israel.
that seems to be the "standard" anyway.

Not only are you a hypocrite, your much more. So now who is the one off topic on his own thread? :confused:

otheadp

12-26-03, 11:15 PM

I posted the things about the holocaust because immature Xerxes said this: ...
i don't care what he said. you wanna make him feel bad, keep it personal. he's not the only one here that might take offence. is it that hard to understand?

Not only are you a hypocrite, your much more
that's because of what i said above? or is it because i butted in?

stop talking out of your ass please.

15ofthe19

12-26-03, 11:23 PM

I posted the link because I wanted to see if any of you who bleed for the Palestinians are actually gullible enough to defend the stone-age, barbaric practices that many of them still support. Thankfully none of have specifically addressed those issues, which reinforces my belief that most of you are just ill-informed, young bleeding hearts that haven't actually considered what it is you're defending, and that as you grow older and gain some wisdom you will realize that you are defending the indefensible. There is a reason that the PA is on an island. Even their so-called Arab brothers don't claim them. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will be on your way toward the truth in this struggle.

otheadp

12-27-03, 01:38 AM

Iran Interior Ministry spokesperson: Iran willing to accept earthquake aid from all countries aside from Israel

20,000 people died in the earth quake,
they agree to aid from all countries (including the Great Satan), except Israel.

they'd rather see some of their own people die than getting help from Israel. if that's not fanatic, i don't know what is.

p.s.
i'm not aware of any aid packaged actually offered by Israel, but regardless, the Ayatollahs refused in principle any help.
i hope the people of Iran are happy with their government.

Ghassan Kanafani

12-27-03, 04:52 AM

15ofthe19

I for one did not respond to your sickening approach of this issue, as I see little reason to discuss these matters with the Goebbels that you are. It is beyond sickening how you attempt to demonize a people in order to have some political argument you envision.

That you even try to link the demonic identity you propagate to the fact they have been left and abandonned in many instances sickens me even more.

Not only do you show your immense ignorance and lack of logical reasoning by not able to relativate your 'barbaric' practices within their society as well as in compare to what goes on around the world, not only do you attempt to deduce illogically some political argument out of something that has no political relevance whatsoever, you seek to demonize a people, you are an active element to the construction of genocide and it will be sickening psychopaths like yourself murdering children justified by your delusionary geno-hatred. Your psychology reflects the reasoning that brings justification to colonialism and mass-murder as we have witnessed throughout history, but in your attemot to de-humanize a people you only succeed to de-humanize yourself.
http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/edoom/throwup.gif

Ghassan Kanafani

12-27-03, 05:29 AM

Originally posted by otheadp
Iran Interior Ministry spokesperson: Iran willing to accept earthquake aid from all countries aside from Israel

20,000 people died in the earth quake,
they agree to aid from all countries (including the Great Satan), except Israel.

they'd rather see some of their own people die than getting help from Israel. if that's not fanatic, i don't know what is.

p.s.
i'm not aware of any aid packaged actually offered by Israel, but regardless, the Ayatollahs refused in principle any help.
i hope the people of Iran are happy with their government.

Shalom Re'a

Let's not make more of this than it is, you do understand that this whole argument lies on the PR level of debate, as you already made clear you (nor I) are aware of any actual offerings, in order to know weither they even exist or have any constructive relevance.

In principle I agree with you, it is ethically disaprovable to allow political conflicts obstructing (relevant) aid to your people, they can show their 'grattitude' later if they want to so desperatly, but as long as the crisis exists certain things have priority. If it would not be a PR issue it would be one of honor, in my opinion sometimes a misunderstood term.

15ofthe19

12-27-03, 09:08 AM

I haven't attempted to dehumanize anyone and I don't need to. The point that your blind hatred seems to miss is the obvious fact that the people in question have already dehumanized themselves by engaging in the barbaric practices mentioned in the link.

You can call me names if it gives you some sort of perverse satisfaction but you will find that yelling and screaming in an attempt to distract others from the truth in my posts will only serve to expose your juvenile behavior. YOU CAN'T DEFEND HONOR KILLINGS AND YOU KNOW IT! So don't bother trying.

Ghassan Kanafani

12-27-03, 09:39 AM

I haven't attempted to dehumanize anyone and I don't need to.

Yes you have, look at what you say :

to see if any of you who bleed for the Palestinians are actually gullible enough to defend the stone-age, barbaric practices that many of them still support

This is de-humanization, you make the appear as untermensch and you speak of many implying a representative majority thus PALESTINIANS as a people.

You argue this lower status of a human being by showing that even their own brothers have abandonned them, IMPLYING that it is for the reason named previously :

There is a reason that the PA is on an island. Even their so-called Arab brothers don't claim them.

Gain awareness of your writings or acknowledge your mental savagery of lacking capability to become aware.

The point that your blind hatred seems to miss is the obvious fact that the people in question have already dehumanized themselves by engaging in the barbaric practices mentioned in the link.

Who do I hate ? You hate Palestinian people, who do I hate ?

You are disgusting in implying a people have de-humanized themselves by some practices you select are you not even aware of the world that you are living in ? Or do you live in disneyland when once a while mickey mouse comes bring you the bad news of a people in the need for de-humanization,

have the Jews de-humanized themselves by living in filthy ghettos, having beards with lice in them, speaking pseudo-accents of a language, abiding fanatically rabbes and other unhygienic tribal figures, carrying diseases, destroying races, putting Christian blood in matzes for recovering lost souls led astray, practicing witchcraft and throwing around live chickens in ritual ways, should I really need to bring out all the points valuable in the proces of de-humanization of the Jewish people ?

You can de-humanize any people on this planet, by pointing out things that are questionable or obscure and present them in a manner representative of the people you wish to de-humanize.

Does that conclude in any way that their suffering inflicted upon them by fascists, nazi's and in our case zionists has been justified, because they are supposedly lesser then human ?

This way of thinking is disturbing.

You can call me names if it gives you some sort of perverse satisfaction but you will find that yelling and screaming in an attempt to distract others from the truth in my posts will only serve to expose your juvenile behavior. YOU CAN'T DEFEND HONOR KILLINGS AND YOU KNOW IT! So don't bother trying.

You can't defend many things I could accuse Jewish people of, this little discussion of ours however has little to do with any 'defending of things' it has EVERYTHING to do with your sickening attempts to make it REPRESENTATIVE of the Palestinian people as well as conclude this or other practices as their identity. That is de-humanizing a people, and is easily done on any people that have ever existed on this planet, not merely on a variety of other subjects, but on this specific subject of your 'honor killings' as well.

Undecided

12-27-03, 01:25 PM

i don't care what he said. you wanna make him feel bad, keep it personal. he's not the only one here that might take offence. is it that hard to understand?

It's hard for me to understand why you think you're important, and why I should care?

that's because of what i said above? or is it because i butted in?

stop talking out of your ass please.

GREAT ARGUMENT http://burns.thefinaldimension.org/cwm/cwm/rcain.giflol

otheadp

12-27-03, 02:14 PM

bravo.
another thread derailed by monkeys.

doesn't anyone have anything relevant and intelligent to say? :confused:

Undecided

12-27-03, 02:15 PM

Why are you calling yourself such names? I mean you were the one who supported the deviant argument about Arafat, and thus nilifying the original subject, and you can thank your friend Xerxes for starting the irrelevancy about Arafat in this thread... so whom here is the moneky?

Ghassan Kanafani

12-27-03, 02:17 PM

Bullshit neshome, there's a whole post just for you on page 1 that you seem to have been ignoring, but there are more threads like these as we know . . . .

otheadp

12-27-03, 02:24 PM

ok then, can we go back to topic?

here's the last post i made that was actually relevant.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by esd
Iran is doing for palestinians the same thing USA did for afghan mujaheddin in the 80s, it's a "bleeding" strategy - fund some 3rd person so your enemy wastes his resolve and resources. From the current economic and political climate in Israel (as perceived in the news and on the Internet - so I could be wrong), and the fact that Israel NEEDS this assistance I would say that this strategy is working.
As for US help - it is simply advantegous for the US government (friendly power in the Middle East, US jewish lobby), however Israel's actions are making this support more and more costly economically as well as politically. If Israel pushes too far US support may cease and their(Israel's) nukes can only deter enemies, not sustain their economy and resource base.
My prediction: the situation will continue to simmer, but the possibility of a major crisis is growing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a very good analysis.
in essense it is not the palestinians who are continuing with the "struggle" but the surrounding countries. Iraq was one of them. look at them now
but the focus is not on those countries, but on the "poor defenseless little palestinians".
it's a genius tactic.
so when Israel retaliates (as it did with Syria a little over a month ago when Israeli air force planes bombed some terrorist training camps in Syria) it looks like they're attacking peaceful innocent nations.

Hezballah is a strategic tool of Iran (supported by Syria) to cause trouble for Israel, which they do all the time.

without Iran and Syria, Hezballah will die.
palestinian terror will also die.

can we just talk about that, instead of who farted at who?

Ghassan Kanafani

12-27-03, 02:29 PM

Sure, but why do you continue to have this habit of bring up things that we have discussed already, you do not like to repeat yourself and neither do I.

Hizbullah is the product of the Shia uprising in Lebanon, I have told you already that you should take a look at the history of Lebanon before you conclude Iranian and Syrian basis.

Your whole 'to cause trouble for Israel' identity of Hizbollah is neglecting the Shia population that brought forth this popular movement. Israel invaded Lebanon and Hizbullah fought for Lebanon's souvereignity.

otheadp

12-27-03, 02:38 PM

it started out as that. you're absolutely right.

but it has transformed and grown over the past 20+ years to be much more than that.

it is a strategic tool used by Iran and Syria to attack Israel while keeping themselves out of the spotlight.
the fact that Hezballah is "protector of the Shi'a" adds the positive image to itself, which is just another reason why it's such an effective tool.

Ghassan Kanafani

12-27-03, 06:25 PM

it started out as that. you're absolutely right.

but it has transformed and grown over the past 20+ years to be much more than that.

When exactly did Israel pulled out ? At very least untill that day they ought to be considered defenders of their people. I agree that they have grown into more than that and that they serve a variety of purposes for a variety of parties.

it is a strategic tool used by Iran and Syria to attack Israel while keeping themselves out of the spotlight.

They are used as a strategic tool, again their identity does not base in that their identity is a popular one not an instrumental one. But indeed both Iran as well as Syria have benefit form their existance.

the fact that Hezballah is "protector of the Shi'a" adds the positive image to itself, which is just another reason why it's such an effective tool.

I agree, it is indeed benefiscious to be known as the protector of the Shia, but as we know it was not untill the new millenium that Israel pulled out of Lebanon, the mere fact that they benefit form their image does not make them having aquired this image incorrectly. The same goes for Hamas. We can discuss how they are an Arab as well as zionist tool and so on, reality however is also that they have popular roots, cause and establishment.

Things can functions in a variety of ways, and should be therefor aproached from various perspectives, not merely the one that suiths best for a certain political position.

Xerxes

12-28-03, 01:45 AM

You should read Ghassan's post, it was amusing.

You should use your own words instead of shamefully skirting the issue with 'aloof' ones that only serve to trick people into believing that you actually know what you're talking about.

For this is the first time I talk to you, also win? Sorry I am much to mature to "win" on sci...get a life if that is your goal!

Your type is quite common, Undecided. You pretend to not care about the moral victory in an argument, when really, its all a pretense over your insecurity of loosing -- to shield any defense of your accusations on my 'immaturity' as ad hom. And to keep alive your fantasies of superiority.

While I'm working to improve my life, you spend your time biting at the ankles of others and pretending that you have a life. Why spend so much time on sciforums if your work is terribly important?

Then I am a stupid moron then, because I don't see the humour.

This would have been your first intelligent statement, had you not acknowledged your stupidity.

Well to tell you the truth, I've been laughing at you're amazing cognitive surrender.

There you go, fantasizing over victory again; if you can't beat 'em, be aloof and pretend like you did!

Willy loman would be proud.

No, but non were more grusome...

*yawn*...

None of the others were quite as appetizing. They were either irrelevant to the subject, or more gruesome.

Go, go, play dig you're hole, your so predictable...your going to come back here soyou can post last and....lol....win *crying*

Its funny - in a pathetic sort of way - that you sooo wish I would bail out that you pretend yourself to be a God, predicting near certainties, and bluffing superiority to see if you can scare me away.

Kind of like how the schoolyard fatso stands at the top of the slide, protecting it, and predicting that other children will try to go down it. We only need to lure him away with chocolate, and some strong rope.:)

your friend Xerxes for starting the irrelevancy about Arafat in this thread... so whom here is the moneky?

And thank *you* for perpetuating it. Still, we shouldn't need to feel pity for the crimes that evolution has done to you. Let's not bring monkeys into the discussion.

Who are you firstly... none of those were directed to you, so I would ask nicely to stick to your own discussions. And secondly my arguments are not based on fallacies, and rhetoric’s.

This after claiming that Ghassans intervention between us was accpetable and right, without question?. Otheadp, on the other hand was not standing so much in loyalty to me as Ghassan was to you, as otheadp was (kindly) trying to make you aware of your mistakes. You should thank him for being gentle with you.

So because I am not an Arab I have no interest in their plight? Using that logic the US should cease its aid program to Israel, they aren't "Jews" why should they care? Let's avoid stupidity ok?

They're not necessarily Jews, but they *are* a democarcy. If the US stopped caring, war would almost certainly break out between the Israeli's and their neighbors (as Israel weakened,) and the US would be dragged in through
1) its irreconciliable need of oil, and
2) the threat of future nuclear on American soil if nuclear powered muslim nations joined.

so then tell me why isn't he making fun of the pics I presented? He is not a person who discriminates? Are you actually to tell me different? I am still waiting for those jokes...and if you take offence, then blame Xerxes he was the one who gave me the outlet.

Do you know what *indemnity* is, undecided?

It means that you are liable, because you posted the pictures and you are not exempted if I asked, begged or bugged you to put the pics up, as I never accepted responsibility for your doing so. Even if I wanted you to (which I did not,) I did not accept responsibility. In a court of law, the judge would not blame me, but you. And the others in this thread should take the same position.

So unless you wish to live under the rule of the Ayatollah, know that under the rules of our glorious constitutions, you are responsible for any offense taken, and not me.

There are no facts in that debate, as thus I could do basically whatever I wanted to.

There are no facts? Since when was the premise my so called 'callousness'. AND -- how does that permit you to do whatever you like.

Thats like saying that you bought a 25cent gumball on the grounds of currency, and thus, you are allowed to produce conterfeit money? Totally illogical.

Another thing: how old are you?

Not only are you a hypocrite, your much more. So now who is the one off topic on his own

Otheadp wasn't taking the thread off topic; he was clarifying the facts before progressing.

This has become brainless and trivial. Undecided, I refuse to play down to your level. I will only respond to your posts if they are on topic. Consider this my foot.

Otheadp,

20,000 people died in the earth quake,
they agree to aid from all countries (including the Great Satan), except Israel.

they'd rather see some of their own people die than getting help from Israel. if that's not fanatic, i don't know what is.

This is the problem. I'm sure the injured would not object to any help the Israeli's could offer, and IF ANYTHING, it would serve to bring the two countries closer to friendship. The ruling class knows that when this happens, there will be no need for them and so, they protect the old ways of hate and ignorance to keep in power.

This is about the most literal representation you'll find of the fact that they *feed* off of suffering.

Another thing is that they'd gladly keep the Palestinians in the same position (rather than progress into the 21st century,) because low employment and low wages in the mideast = much more profit to the rich. This is more of a mechanical response of the tyranny than a conscious one.

otheadp

12-28-03, 03:36 AM

it would serve to bring the two countries closer to friendship
but Iran doesn't want peace with Israel, or its people.
it wants its destruction, and banishment of the Jews who live there now. (liberation of al-Quds).
just read the link from the 1st post again.

I agree that they (Hezballah) have grown into more than that and that they serve a variety of purposes for a variety of parties
so that's that.

But indeed both Iran as well as Syria have benefit form their existance
and in addition, they are funded, receive weapons and training, and receive all their instructions from there. therefore, it's not just coincidental benifits, but is a strategic tool they use.

it was not untill the new millenium that Israel pulled out of Lebanon
we both know that Hezballah was not the reason Israel pulled out. (although they spin it to themselves that it was).
Israel pulled out because of a UN Security Council resolution. otherwise we would've stayed there.

The same goes for Hamas. We can discuss how they are an Arab as well as zionist tool
i'm tempted....but i won't go there. let's stay on topic.

Ghassan Kanafani

12-28-03, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by otheadp
but Iran doesn't want peace with Israel, or its people.
it wants its destruction, and banishment of the Jews who live there now. (liberation of al-Quds). just read the link from the 1st post again.

Some (repetative) comments to your response directed at our Al-Fassi friend :

* dismanteling of the zionist state does not equal physical destruction of the land/infrastructure/inhabitants governed by the zionist state.

* Al Quds doesn't equal Israel.

* I have been through the link again and not seen anything in regard to banishing Jews (out of Al Quds or elsewhere) , please point it out.

You're right though, our naive Al-Fassi friend has not toomuch clue on what is going on around him on historical, political, and most probably religious base as well. Indeed Iran doesn't wan't peace and any cooperation in this disaster (which as I mentioned earlier I believe should not be turned down) won't result in any changes in that position. It did not have to be this way though, I do hope you can understand how this situation has evolved to be.

and in addition, they are funded, receive weapons and training, and receive all their instructions from there. therefore, it's not just coincidental benifits, but is a strategic tool they use.

No there is a difference, you imply them to be a strategic tool while only can acknowledge the fact that they are seen (or can be seen) as strategic utility in the eyes of others. Their identity is not that of a strategic tool, their identity is as representatives of the Lebanese Shia, which others see to utilize for their means. This does not make them a tool themselves, I hope you can understand my point.

we both know that Hezballah was not the reason Israel pulled out. (although they spin it to themselves that it was).
Israel pulled out because of a UN Security Council resolution. otherwise we would've stayed there.

There are a variety of reasons for Israel to pull out, certainly Hizbollah has played a role but not to dwell toomuch into a militaristic and general discussion on international politics, let us remain focussed at the essence here:

Weither Hizbollah succeeded in their attempts, weither they can take the honor for the benefiscious developments that came to be, does not in any way disprove their position and their attempts for defence and liberation. Untill the day that Israel occupied Lebanon their army participated in previous mentioned, they participated by the means of their disposal, within the possibilities that they had. Weither it was them to have actually chased out Israel, does not mean they were not the ones representing the Lebanese cause and defending it. That was my point to begin with.

i'm tempted....but i won't go there. let's stay on topic.

But we are immensly nitpicking in all this agreement of ours :D ,btw regardless of who's role in what, Hamas has come to function similar as Hizbollah, engaging in social services for their people, representing their voice and defending their land, and with perhaps a greater role as far as influence on Israel goes.