VERY bothersome article from Australian newspaper 'The Age':
www.theage.com.au/daily/990523/news/news3.html (http://www.theage.com.au/daily/990523/news/news3.html)

Some excerpts:

"Together with the giant American National Security Agency (NSA) and its Canadian, British, and New Zealand counterparts, DSD operates a network of giant, highly automated tracking stations that illicitly pick up commercial satellite communications and examine every fax, telex, e-mail, phone call, or computer data message that the satellites carry.

The five signals intelligence agencies form the UKUSA pact. They are bound together by a secret agreement signed in 1947 or 1948. Although its precise terms have never been revealed, the UKUSA agreement provides for sharing facilities, staff, methods, tasks and product between the participating governments.

Now, due to a fast-growing UKUSA system called Echelon, millions of messages are automatically intercepted every hour, and checked according to criteria supplied by intelligence agencies and governments in all five UKUSA countries. The intercepted signals are passed through a computer system called the Dictionary, which checks each new message or call against thousands of ``collection'' requirements. The Dictionaries then send the messages into the spy agencies' equivalent of the Internet, making them accessible all over the world. "

"Until this year, the US Government has tried to ignore the row over Echelon by refusing to admit its existence. The Australian disclosures today make this position untenable. US intelligence writer Dr Jeff Richelson has also obtained documents under the US Freedom of Information Act, showing that a US Navy-run satellite receiving station at Sugar Grove, West Virginia, is an Echelon site, and that it collects intelligence from civilian satellites."

"Information is also fed into the Echelon system from taps on the Internet, and by means of monitoring pods which are placed on undersea cables. Since 1971, the US has used specially converted nuclear submarines to attach tapping pods to deep underwater cables around the world. "

The full report can be downloaded here:
http://jya.com/ic2000.zip

Also read:
www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19990518S0004 (http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19990518S0004)
search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+71+0+wAAA+echelon (http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+71+0+wAAA+echelon)


[This message has been edited by DaveW (edited May 28, 1999).]

This is "shocking." For what purpose? Civilian connections can't possibly post a threat to any government. Can it? Do you think the Seti at home project could be secretly collecting all the information we have on our hard drives and sending it back through this "spy connection?"

I guess "Big Brother" is watching us more thoroughly than George Orwell thought!

Of course the Government is able to tap into internet communications. Where did the internet start? Who funded it? DARPA. One of the first nodes was connected directly to the Pentagon. This is why the Administration is so vehemently against encryption. They don't want to have to devote any more resources than they have to to read your mail; they want to spend the money to read Saddam's mail. Therefore, don't send anything that you don't want Uncle to read.


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The Truth is Out There

The investigation into the Echelon system by the EU concluded last year, the case was then closed. Apparently some non UKUSA members led by the French have thier own similiar system, so they`re keeping quite. As for the invasion of privacy? The governments we elect have a responsibility to the protection of it`s people, from thier enemies and from themselves by any means to preserve a stable society. So if you haven`t got anything to hide and your not planning on killing lots of people, then why shouldn`t you mind someone in Fort Austin US or GCHQ UK reading your rubbish jokes and Dilbert cartoons?

This is interisting, but if the government can, why not someone else? Bill Gates OWNS Microsoft, he'd probably be the first to set up a system like this. With the technology he has acces to, he's probably spying ON the government! Not to mention that Microsoft has its own free e-mail service. Why? Maybe companies are being hired by the government to spy on us. Wait a second, I'm using Microsofts e-mail service...uh-oh!

Who Care.. Yep Who Cares.. Do you really care if some government can access your E-mail to find out your lunch plans with bob341@hotmail.com? I mean what do normal people do on the net that a normal person needs to be conserned about? Oh Oh Oh I got a Ecard, Big Brother is watching me.. oh oh Im scared.. face it the days were we had the option not to be sheep are long gone..

and think of the benefits.. No More Spam-mail!, Kiddy-porn would be gone!, Hate sites would be gone! Those annoying send 10 people this link or we will come and kick your pets, would be gone too. The internet would be a better place for everyone..

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(Midnight@golden.net)
(Ouch.my.head)
(http://home.golden.net/~midnight/)

[This message has been edited by Mid12am (edited June 01, 1999).]

"Ooh!" good point Mid12am,

That makes giving up my right to privacy all the more bearable :(

Although, I must admit, I do hate those spammers! :)

What Privicy?

The web is wide open.. most parts are accessable by anyone.
My E-mail is sent through a company.. Who is to say they don't monitor it already?
Newsgroups are accessable by everyone.
There is nothing private about the "Net"



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(Midnight@golden.net)
(Ouch.my.head)
(http://home.golden.net/~midnight/)

I am not a fan of Spammers, Kiddie porn, hate sites, or anything else that is not considered "good" on the 'net. However, as history has pointed out, give the government an inch, they'll take a light year.
This whole discussion is starting to sound like the gun control debate. I don't own any guns, but I can see their point.
Remember, there is a large group of people in this country (look at the executive branch, for instance) that thinks we don't know how to live our lives, and want to legislate every little thing. Look at what happened to tobacco. What's next? Salt? Fatty meat? Beer? It's starting to sound like a line from "Demolition Man". "...is bad for you, hence it's illegal."
Trust NO one.

Phil G,

I agree 101% !!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for privacy,

Of course the web is wide open, the point I was "trying" to make can be illustrated with the following:

...suppose everytime you post a message here the words you type were "observed" by some "virtual cop" who's job is to re-type what he thought should "accually" be posted!

Don't you think things could eventually end up this way? (or very close to it)

Sensorship is control. NO human should have control over another in this manner.

The whole point I was trying to make is that you never want to set a precedent of giving up any kind of right or freedom. The government gave up control of the internet, but it still wants to be able to read your mail. I'm not so naive as to believe that everything I type is secure; but I don't want the gov. looking out for me either. Everybody harps about their "rights", but they don't talk about the flip side of the coin, which is responsibility.
But I digress.
If the Justice Department tapped your phone w/o a warrant, you'd be pissed.
If the Postal Service opened your mail, you'd be pissed.
If the FBI spied through your bedroom window, you'd be pissed.
So what's the difference between the above, and some spook reading your E-mail, even if it is innocuous?

O my god, a message from the future !


PhilG,

how come when I post it's only 11:00 am while you seem to 'have written' this at 12:30 am ?


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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

I read something along this line a couple of years ago (I can't remember where I read it), but it pertained to phone calls not the internet at the time.

Something about calls being screened once they reached the satellite and searched for key words that might pertain to national security. If the computer picked up any key words, the call was then evaluated and sent to the appropriate agency.

Over the years I have thought about that when having a negative discussion about Clinton or the government, etc.

And the gov't wonders why we have so little trust in them.

And we are the one's that are paranoid!!!

Bev :)

I think most of the people who are placing posts on this message board are thinking merely on a domestic level. Your only looking as far as your own front door. The reported Echelon system is world wide, the five participating nations each have thier own sector of the planet to cover. The principle is simple, mutual co-operation with the sharing of data. Not only do these countries spy on non members of the group, but they also spy on each other. Simply because it`s illegal for a nation to spy on it`s own people, so why not let a friend do it and share the data collected.
I`m interested in the cries for privacy, yes this is an intrusion, but think of the good? Terrorists, criminals, sex offenders and the like being hunted down. Secret organisations planning to overthrough democratically elected governments targeted by the good guys. The simple facts are that it`s easy to shout about governments and thier underhand tactics, but think of why they do it? Simply to protect us. You may not be planning a terrorist bombing campaign, but there are people who are. So isn`t a minor intrusion into privacy a small price to pay? Or are you the type of person who just thinks as long as I`m okay, and nothing happens to me then screw everyone else. Like I posted earlier, is it really such a big deal someone reading your Dilberts before you do?

Mike don't be naive. They are not doing it for the "good of all mankind"! That is sugar coating! They are doing it for their own self interest. We pay billions in taxpayers dollars to employ agencies to protect our best interest. And I still believe in the constitution. Give them an inch....

Bev :)

[This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 03, 1999).]

No, Mike, I AM thinking globally.
Like China.
Like the old Soviet Union.
Like the many little tinpot dictatorships in Africa, Central America, and South America.
I like being able to sign on to the Internet and look at any site I want, without some Big Brother looking over my shoulder.
I don't particularly care if the CIA, MI6, or anybody else reads my E-mail (in fact, I wish I knew what the key words were, so I could spam the bastards). I have nothing to hide, and I do nothing I am ashamed of.
What PISSES me off is the fact that I could lose the ability to see what I want, to do what I want, to write these words. Look to the example of history; there's always some socialist group whining about our society.
But where else in the world can you kick back, crack a beer, and surf the net without some sort of government intrusion? Not many places, I fear.
So enjoy it while you can.
PS I am in Wyoming, mountain time.

I think what bothers me most is that it's like an anglosaxon only club who feels they should be the guardians of the world. What gives them the right ? If somethings needs to be monitored it should be done by everybody.
Have you heard of the idea's of David Brin about the transparant society ? Have a look at http://laissezfaire.org/ws8018.html it might be a possible future.

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

Another thing to think of,

People are always concerned with there own privacy, within good reason this is understandable. But I feel sometimes the passion people have in thinking that governments want to pry into thier own lives, overshadows what I feel is the reality for the system.

Economic advantage over your oponents.

Knowing other governments, countries and foreign industries economic stategy, promotes our own stability. This inturn gives our own governments an edge in preserving thier own internal stability. That is economic stability, crime and terrorism is another, but related issue. This stability is taken for granted by us, just think what it would be like to live in a tin pot African country or former USSR nation without the safeguards we take for granted? Where your countries currency can fluctuate 20, 30, 40, 50% and more in just a day. OK, an exageration, but do you get my point? Think about it.....?

Okay, Mike, you're saying that it's okay to subvert the Constitution for economic gain?
Doesn't this fall under unreasonable search? Or perhaps we could all call each other Comrade and chalk this intrusion up to the common good?
What if the government decided that you couldn't overtly criticize the President? And they found a Clinton joke in your E-mail? Here come the men in the unmarked vans to take you away, impound your computer, and maybe give you some jail time, too.
Farfetched? Maybe. Or maybe now.
Who knows what the future will bring?

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The Truth is Out There

In U.S. we have this thing called the Constitution. That declares some rights as inalienable, and guarantees them forever as long as the nation stands. Among those rights is the right to privacy.

So, my dear hypocrites, tell me something.
How is it constitutional for U.S. organizations to spy on U.S. citizens? And when you are through with that one, tell me how is it that the inalienable rights apply only to Americans, and not to the rest of human race?

How can we declare the right to privacy to be fundamental, and then go spy on innocent civilians of *any* nation? Does this remind anybody of the good old days, when all men were created equal, except for the Negroes, the Injuns, the Gooks, the Jews, the...?

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I am; therefore I think.

It may interest you guys to find out that the US is not the only country in the world with a constitution. Your also not the only democracy on the planet either. Do you really think democratic governments will spend so much money just to read peoples email? I don`t think so, they will however spend great amounts of cash on spying on foreign industry and technological research. Which I have say is of positive benefit to us all.

Mike:

My remarks were addressed solely to U.S. citizens. Since I'm not familiar with any other countries' constitutions, I do not know what they have to say about fundamental human rights. But since U.S. seems to be one of the major players in Echelon, I think my point is very valid and relevant.

Violation of privacy, no matter how benign the reasons, is an inexcusable crime. The only time it might be justified is if there are ample reasons to suspect that a person/persons are involved in something sinister of potential harm to others (or are trying to cover up their suspected past misdeeds). But even for those cases, in U.S. we require a court order to enable the regulatory agency in question to target those specific individuals in question.

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I am; therefore I think.

While we all cry about this Echelon Invasion of our privacy, we fail to see the more subtle invasion of our privacy exacerbated by the net - namely e-commerce web sites.

We now have the "privilege" of shopping online, but at the cost of some personal information.

What most people do not even realize is how wide open all their personal profile information is to anyone who can name a price. Who cares whether someone can read email from a bogus hotmail account, when companies like Amazon.com and others are quietly amassing huge data repositories filled with consumer information which they plan to sell at some point in the future.

This is a little bit more of a concern than some simple packet-sniffing enterprise run by a bunch of combat-starved military types.

[This message has been edited by Skepticus (edited June 08, 1999).]

I think the main point of all this discussion is:
What are we going to do about it?

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The Truth is Out There

I have to agree with the statements Boris made. This country was initially settled by people who wanted freedom and "rights." While trying to establish their laws, these people denied others (Africans and Indians)those very same rights. It was a mistake that was woven into the very fabric of this "great nation" of ours (via the constitution).

The Internet is the discovery of a new frontier (all over again). We simply cannot allow the invasion of our rights :(! There must be a way to allow this great invention to florish without ignoring the rights of human beings.

Maybe there should be a Constitution written for the Internet "society" that would address these types of concerns ;).

Sirius, you raise a good point, but the thing is that as we get more involved in the internet society, and become more dependent on electronic transactions, be they email or anything else, we are opening ourselves up to more surveillance and tracking in our daily lives.

The Echelon project is but one device currently in use. How about video? Did you ever think how that is going to change our society - when authorities one day have the ablility to watch every street corner anonymously?

I don't think an internet constitution would be a worthy means of guaranteeing more freedom - because it would not be respected by those who have the ability to abuse the basic rights.

As we embrace technology, we are subject to the invasive nature of these e-tools, and the exploitation that some new scam artist or covert freak is dreaming up.

And if you think the current technology is scary, wait until the bio-tech sector gets up and running.

Most Americans I have ever met always come out with the same line, " We`re from the land of the free." and then they waffle on about thier constitution for a bit. But it seems apparent that the US government has no regard for it`s people and thier basic civil rights.

I presume this project was funded primarily by the US government, so my question to you guys is this. How can an apparently democratic government fund a project which undoubtably costs several hundred million dollars, "tax payers dollers" Without authorisation from your Congress first?

As your President can only stay in office for two terms, is he informed of the systems existence?

If he is aware on an official level, then surely he has then broken his oath of office in protecting the civil rights of the people?

If he is not aware, then who is?

The implications are staggering, stop and think.....

A person or persons who are where not elected, are spending hundreds of millions of your dollars on something you certainely didn`t ask for, violates your civil rights, and they spent your money without asking the politians you elected.

See my point? You fellas have got major problems, and it`s alot more serious than having a stranger read your email before you do.

There's the television. It's all right there - all right there.

Look, listen, kneel, pray. Commercials!

We're not productive anymore.

We don't make things anymore. It's all automated. What are we *for* then?
We're consumers.

Fact, man, fact - if you don't buy things - toilet paper, new cars, computerized yo-yos,
electrically-operated sexual devices, servo systems with brain-implanted headphones, screwdrivers with miniature built-in radar devices, voice-activated computers -

Yeah. Okay, okay. Buy a lot of stuff, you're a good citizen. But if you don't
buy a lot of stuff, if you don't, what are you then, I ask you? What? Mentally *ill*.

Mike:

That's exactly what I've been talking about. The cold war is over, but the warmongers of the old national security apparatus continue as they always have. A few decades ago, the secresy and compromise of some rights seemed acceptable in view of a formidable and devious foe supposedly plotting the nation's downfall. However, now this behavior is no longer justified, and you are absolutely right -- our government has spun out of control, and we better regain the control soon...

As for ever-growing means of invading privacy due to technological progress:
It's of course inevitable that with time it will become ever easier for various organizatios or individuals to spy on us. However, what is not inevitable is that such behavior be considered *legal*, or *permissible* under law. They may spy on you, but if you manage to catch them -- there ought to be hell to pay on their part. And that, by the way, *includes* government organizations.

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I am; therefore I think.

Boris,

This probably sounds a bit radical, but bear with me.

With reference to current events with China.

Ever since the end of the cold war the US has been looking for a new foe. the Russians are economically crippled, they probably couldn`t fire thier old missiles even if they wanted too. Iraq is no threat what so ever. So who is left? China, once again we`re being subjected to the evil commie red one liners!

The claim that for the past twenty years they`ve been stealing US nuclear technology at the very least sounds absurd.

The old song of they want to take away our way of life is being chirped by narrow minded politians, but why?

The people who gave the world echelon need an enemy to justify thier existence, and China looks good for it. Nuclear war is unthinkable on both sides, so the risk is small but the gain to your budget is immense.

I have met Russians recently,they seemed like nice people, twenty years ago they would have been evil red devils. I also have a Chinese friend, and if your NSA has it`s way he will be and evil red commie by this time next year. Get my point?

Mean while, the rest of the world has to hold it`s breath and pray that the planet isn`t blown away by the US government playing it`s games.

Far fetched, possibly I know. But this is the perspective of a person looking from the outside into your country.

Knowledge and open mindedness is the only defence, and the internet is our prime asset. Once you take away 99% of the turd on the net there immerges a toll of truth and global openess that can`t be controlled.

Since the growth of the web has become more global, our own governments are loosing the ability to control what we see, hear and read. Which can only be a good thing, and which is definitly something that governments don`t like.

A few points to ponder:
First, it's not just the US government doing this thing: it's a UK project,too.
Second, I doubt very seriously that the Congress doesn't know about this. They have been very careful in keeping an eye on the various spy agencies in this country since the 70's. Congress does have to approve the funding of even the NSA.
Third, will everybody stop blaming TV for all the ills of the world? I mean, really!
Fourth, even that moron in the White House is going to take on China. They funded his treason (oops! I meant campaign). The US wouldn't take on China in the Korean war, and they certainly won't do it now that they have nuclear weapons.
Fifth, the US has been snuggling up to China since the 70's. The market is enormous! Over a billion consumers, and they only have six tv's in the whole country (okay, a slight exaggeration).
And lastly, it's not just internet traffic that's being monitored. Cell phones, cable traffic, and just about anything else that's transmitted is being intercepted.


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The Truth is Out There

Just "wanted" to let you "know" that you dont have to put every other word in these "newfangled quotations." I have "seen" people "put" quotation "marks" around "almost eveything".

=P

I don`t believe that the US government is facsist, nor do I believe they want a war with China. They certainely didn`t want a war with the former USSR but that didn`t stop 50 years of cold war.

What I`m trying to say is this, for the US government to pull together the varied cultural diversities that live in the US, make them salute the flag and say. "We`re from the land of the free." It has to have a big evil enemy, that the people believe wants to destroy thier way of life.

Just look at the attention militia groups which now direct thier hostilities more so toward the government, in the past it would have been toward the evil commie reds.

The seeds have now been sown, the out come is inevitable.

Another thing, if you think Congress was aware of echelon, then why has Congress called for an investigation into how this could be funded without them knowing? As reported on CNN.

Why is Congress calling for an investigation?
C.Y.A.

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The Truth is Out There

I don't know why, if your an American you tell me?

Their public reason for an investigation is to ensure that the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens are not violated by Echelon. Which is a crock of bull in my opinion -- first, because those rights are supposed to be fundamental, and not just reserved for U.S. citizens, and second, because by its very nature Echelon intercepts all communications regardless of origin or destination. As far as I can tell, it's just political grandstanding -- nothing more, nothing less.

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I am; therefore I think.

Merit of System, no matter what the system, can only be as good as those running it. Who is to say what people know and what they don't?

How is it constitutional for U.S. organizations to spy on U.S. citizens?

Well, up here in Canada we tend to have the same notions about personal privacy. That being said, the Canadian Security Information Service (CSIS) was recently (a few years ago) found to be spying on an elected official.

Now if you look at this Echelon system, you will see that any of the countries involved can easily defer the blame off themselves, because it is an multinational organization. Canadian officials can say that they themselves never spied on Canadians, even though UK agents may have done so, and subsequently relayed that information back to Canadian officials. Technically, everyone's hands are clean (no matter that this is a very slimy way around things - it's enough to please the bureaucracies involved).

I'm new to these type of public idea postings, so please bear with me.

Big Brother seems to be gain more control everyday. But don't blame this on the Government. This is the peoples fault. We (as any nation) have the responsibilty to control our nations future. If we neglect to control our government's power then we (as a nation) gave them the power to do so. We allow mass media to control our thoughts, (if they say someone is guilty we believe, if they say something is bad, we believe), we as a nation must start to group together to achieve the goals of the collective. And not
follow the few who lead as if they are the sheperds and we are the herd of sheep. We the People have the power and no tyrant government, nor few have more power than the nations people united as one. So as you continue to complain about big brother, remember that you help create him, not by direct contrubution but by neglecting your duties as a member of the nation(s) that he controls.

(Just food for thought)

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Knowledge is limited

My question is:
Does anybody know what the key words that
Echelon is searching for? If we all knew the keywords, we could sprinkle them liberally throughout all our e-mail. For example:
Hi bomb Fred! How's your Nuclear family?
With enough people doing this all the time, I think we could really gum up the works.

I (Bomb threat) kinda (mass murder) like that
(chemical warfare) idea!!!

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Knowledge is limited

this is true..........
Keep digging

One further thing look at a globe..........where can a satelite beem to?
central australia???? find North West cape!
find Pine gap...fiond the truth...a Digger
is an aussie patroit