News coming from Europe over the last few weeks shows a rising trend within several European countries to assimilate Muslim inhabitants through new laws forcing Muslim women to give up their Islamic attire in public schools, sending Muslim refugees back home, and limiting the number of new Muslim clerics.

A closer look at Europe’s current economic and ideological circumstances and at the consequences of the latest regulations on European Muslims shows that Europe is taking the wrong route to integrate its Muslim population. On February 17th, Danish PM Anders Rasmussen announced various changes to immigration policies aimed at curbing the number of Muslim religious leaders allowed into Denmark. The proposed changes, which the parliament is expected to rapidly pass into law, are part of a deal reached last September between Denmark’s Liberal-Conservative government and its far-right ally, the Danish People's Party (DPP). "In theory, these rules concern all clerics from all religions. But in practice, they target the imams," a DPP spokesman Peter Skaarup told journalists in September.

On the same day, the Dutch Lower House voted to expel up to 26,000 failed asylum-seekers over the next three years. Many have been in the asylum process for years, and include Somalis, Afghans, Chechens, and stateless persons. The New York-based Human Rights Watch described the move as a violation of international standards that “signal a serious departure from the Netherlands’ historic role as a leader in human rights’ protection in Europe… [because] sending people back to places where they could be in danger not only jeopardizes their safety, it is illegal.”

Read more here:

http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/Hijab/2004-03/article_05.shtml

Proud Muslim I understand your concern about european integration of Muslim people or any foreigners for that matter. Perhaps mass migrations have crossed a social "threshold" that would trigger unwanted repercussions. I'm afraid that Islamic militancy has given rise to political groups whose only agenda is a counter attack on foreigners.

It's still not too late for Muslim militants to cool it for the betterment of the majority Muslims. Continued militancy will give rise to discusting Hitlerean tactics that befell the Jews during WWII.

I hear talk everywhere about the expulsion of Muslims from Europe as a last ditch effort to dwarth the rising tide of Muslim militancy. Human rights can only be implimented in a civilized society not one based on terror

PS.

From your link:

"In Britain, where 1.6 million Muslims live, a London-based Islamic human rights group reported 344 incidents of anti-Muslim violence against Muslims in the year after September 11, including the stabbing of a Muslim woman."

And that was because of terrorism in the USA, What do you think will happen when terrorism strikes Britain?

"This will hinder Muslim integration into European society, as well as damage Europe’s image in the Muslim world."

Muslims image of Europe was confirmed recently in Madrid - and that really damaged Europes image of the Muslim world

"Instead, European countries should seek creative approaches to fully engage their Muslim communities in the struggle for economic reform and ideological moderation."

For whos benefit, certainly not Europe.


You never know PS, things just might get better for you when we see muslims fight the Taliban and Al Queda (FAT CHANCE!).

Anyone heard of muslims fighting terrorism???

PM,
I live in Denmark, and some changes are definately needed to ensure that the imams do not preach messages that sow mistrust or hatred, or teach young Muslims that they have to resist the Danish social values (i.e. freedom of speech, not whether to drink or not, which is of course fine to disagree with). Many imams are self-appointed, and we can't have these guys teaching the next generation to hate the society they live in. Certainly, the problem is only with a few, but we can't have foreign missionaries of hatred trying to turn the immigrant population against the society. I think they want to open some imam school here so they can make sure they don't end up teaching a brand of Islam that has the ultimate aim of converting all Danes. Personally, I don't believe there should be freedom of speech to preach to overthrow freedom of speech! Nazi parties, communist parties and religious parties should be banned.

Just to add, I really can't stand the Danish People's Party, I'm not anti-immigrant in any way, and I don't like the monopoly position of the Lutheran church, but I'm not a big fan of religion either, and certainly not any form that seeks to erode our freedoms.

I'm afraid that Islamic militancy has given rise to political groups whose only agenda is a counter attack on foreigners.

I agree with you, Militant Islamic groups are not doing Muslims in the west any favour.

It's still not too late for Muslim militants to cool it for the betterment of the majority Muslims. Continued militancy will give rise to discusting Hitlerean tactics that befell the Jews during WWII.

Well, you need to realize that the Muslims of the 21th century are not the Jews of the 20th century, we dont sit back watching muslims being slaughted, we hit back and hard.

If I see my fellow muslims being led to their death in Europe, I will be the FIRST SUICIDE MARTYER to blow up some NAZI PIGS with honour.

I hear talk everywhere about the expulsion of Muslims from Europe as a last ditch effort to dwarth the rising tide of Muslim militancy. Human rights can only be implimented in a civilized society not one based on terror

Here is a deal, you expell your muslim minorities, we expell our christian minority and the 200-400 thousands westerners living and working in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region PLUS we switch OFF the oil taps, how about that ?

Fair deal, huh ?

PM,
I live in Denmark, and some changes are definately needed to ensure that the imams do not preach messages that sow mistrust or hatred, or teach young Muslims that they have to resist the Danish social values (i.e. freedom of speech, not whether to drink or not, which is of course fine to disagree with). Many imams are self-appointed, and we can't have these guys teaching the next generation to hate the society they live in.

I totally agree with you, I have special bonds with Scandinavia, I live between the UK and Scandinavia and I know very well what you mean and I agree with you.

I agree that some imams are so extreme who came from totally different culture, but this does not mean Muslims have to give up their culture and their religion to be able to live in Denmark, after all, you need us and we need you, the need is mutual.

Certainly, the problem is only with a few, but we can't have foreign missionaries of hatred trying to turn the immigrant population against the society.

Agree.

I think they want to open some imam school here so they can make sure they don't end up teaching a brand of Islam that has the ultimate aim of converting all Danes. Personally, I don't believe there should be freedom of speech to preach to overthrow freedom of speech! Nazi parties, communist parties and religious parties should be banned.

Well, you should start with the Danish people party, they are NEO NAZIS in disguise, I met very moderate Imam from Copenhagen the other day and he told me that those people in government are making matter worse, for example, an immigrant needs to wait 10 years to be able to get the Danish passport !!

The Danish government went so pathetically far to even put SEVERE RESTRICTIONS on native danes who want to marry foriegner !! many danes are coming to live in south of Sweden !! this is unbearable !

Just to add, I really can't stand the Danish People's Party, I'm not anti-immigrant in any way, and I don't like the monopoly position of the Lutheran church, but I'm not a big fan of religion either, and certainly not any form that seeks to erode our freedoms.

Fair Enough, you got valid point, you guys want to keep your way of life, and we Muslims should and are respecting this, we dont aim to convert you, we dont aim at changing your way of life, and we are asking the same from the Danish people, TOLERANCE.

As far as I remember you have to be 24 and have a certain level of income, certain size apartment etc to be allowed to bring in a foreign wife/husband. S/he also can't seek state support for something like 7 years. All designed to stop arranged weddings with people from their hometowns so they could come up here and get the dole, but its way too personal. I can accept limitations of support, but preventing married people to live together is too much. The government is predominantly liberal, which is great, but then it needs to act accordingly, increasing freedoms, not restricting them. The 2nd and 3rd generation are not nearly as conservative, anyway.

Its annoying because Denmark prides itself on tolerance and liberal attitudes - although honestly I think the public attitude is quite good, especially compared to other countries. Sweden is much more immigrant-friendly, but the discussion is almost taboo, so they are going to just get into a whole lot more trouble. Better to get the discussion out in the open, or people will just bottle up any unreasonable prejudices until it finally explodes and they wind up like Austria when Haider got in the government.

Here is a deal, you expell your muslim minorities, we expell our christian minority and the 200-400 thousands westerners living and working in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region PLUS we switch OFF the oil taps, how about that ?

Fair deal, huh ?

....... and the world will cut off all supplies to the Middle East

Go for it Muslim!

Denmark, after all, you need us and we need you, the need is mutual.
Why on earth would Denmark NEED musliums???? :confused:



an immigrant needs to wait 10 years to be able to get the Danish passport !!
Thats toooo soon, should be at least 30 years. :D



Fair Enough, you got valid point, you guys want to keep your way of life, and we Muslims should and are respecting this, we dont aim to convert you, we dont aim at changing your way of life, and we are asking the same from the Danish people, TOLERANCE.

In other words, "You let us live in your country and there will be no trouble."

"TOLERANCE"......LOL!

What does Islam know of tolerance??? :D

As far as I remember you have to be 24 and have a certain level of income, certain size apartment etc to be allowed to bring in a foreign wife/husband. S/he also can't seek state support for something like 7 years. All designed to stop arranged weddings with people from their hometowns so they could come up here and get the dole, but its way too personal.

Since when the job of the state is to tell its citizens who should or should not marry ???

I can accept limitations of support, but preventing married people to live together is too much. The government is predominantly liberal, which is great, but then it needs to act accordingly, increasing freedoms, not restricting them. The 2nd and 3rd generation are not nearly as conservative, anyway.

Well said, the problem is native Danes leaving their country in disgust, I know this guy from Denmark who married a Thai girl, the danish government wont recognize let alone let this poor girl in, so he left for Sweden, he is very angry at his government, he has a point.

Its annoying because Denmark prides itself on tolerance and liberal attitudes - although honestly I think the public attitude is quite good, especially compared to other countries.

Well, I hope you are right, from what I heard from Muslims living there, People are very racists ! I hope it is not true.

Sweden is much more immigrant-friendly, but the discussion is almost taboo, so they are going to just get into a whole lot more trouble.

Sweden is the BEST Scandinavian and indeed EUROPEAN country in favour of immigration, they are the best and I salute them for this, I have been to Stockholm few weeks ago, I saw how immigrants live and interact with the people, I did not hear complaint about the general public being racists, just those skinhead neo nazi scumbags who are very tiny minority.

Better to get the discussion out in the open, or people will just bottle up any unreasonable prejudices until it finally explodes and they wind up like Austria when Haider got in the government.

I agree, but dont you think Europe NEEDS Immigrants specially if we look at this:

Ageing: Europe's growing problem

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38248000/gif/_38248478_euro_ageing2_300graph.gif

According to the United Nations, ageing is increasingly becoming one of the most salient social, economic and demographic phenomena of our times.

In Europe, as in other continents of the world, the problem will be acute.

It is estimated that by 2050, the number of people over 60 in Europe will have doubled to 40% of the total population or 60% of the working age population.

Over the next few decades, the "baby boomers", the largest generation, born in the 1950s and 1960s, will start to retire.

The situation will be exacerbated by the very different expectations and life expectancy of their parents and grandparents.

Expectations of old age are not what they used to be.

This new scenario brings many opportunities, but there is also concern for how the system will cope.

How Europe could age*

Germany:
22,9% (2000), 30% (2020), 41% (2050)

Belgium:
22.1% (2000), 30% (2020), 38% (2050)

Denmark:
19.9% (2000), 28% (2020), 36% (2050)

Spain:
21.8% (2000), 28% (2020), 44% (2050)

France:
20.7% (2000), 29% (2020), 38% (2050)

*Persons 60 years and over as a % of the total population up to 2050. Source: Eurostat

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2248531.stm

[QUOTE=Vienna]Why on earth would Denmark NEED musliums???? :confused:


Hear hear!

Proud Muslim, I have a question for you:

If Muslims are so intent on 'intergrating' into western society and only 'wish to practise their religion' in peace, then why, when running away-- sorry, 'immigrating'-- do they not go to any of the many Muslim countries around the world?
They're not all oppressive dictatorships and dusty shit-holes, are they?
Why choose a country where they know they're going to be less than welcome, such as America, England or anywhere else free-thinking people can express their opinions?

Is it, as I suspect, merely a way of 'intergrating' Westerners into the fun-loving, ham-dodging Muslim religion?

I'll pass, thanks. I like my bacon rolls too much.

Happy thoughts, PM, happy thoughts...!

Flemster, the fact that they go to rich Western countries only shows that they care more about prosperity and making a future for their kids than they do about living in an Islamic society. They might be pretty conservative, just like Americans pre-1960's, but their kids don't usually follow in the same footsteps. Don't overestimate people's religiousity.

Since when the job of the state is to tell its citizens who should or should not marry ???
Lol... I suppose you could say the same if a Muslim wanted to marry a Christian without interference from others, but I bet it wouldn't happen.


Sweden is the BEST Scandinavian and indeed EUROPEAN country in favour of immigration, they are the best and I salute them for this, I have been to Stockholm few weeks ago, I saw how immigrants live and interact with the people, I did not hear complaint about the general public being racists, just those skinhead neo nazi scumbags who are very tiny minority.
Of course you say Sweden is the BEST - but only because it favours immigration (who knows why) :rolleyes:


I agree, but dont you think Europe NEEDS Immigrants specially if we look at this:???

Whoa there my strokey bearded friend. Before you get carried away with your fantasy ideas of immigration let me tell you this.

The boom in immigration has been matched only by the determination of immigration celebrationists to brainwash the British public into thinking that it is all for their own good. But almost every reason given to support this immigration is bogus.

Britain doesn’t have a declining population — there are more births than deaths each year; it doesn’t have a declining workforce, largely because women’s retirement age is rising to 65 by 2020; as recognised by every authority from the Immigration Advisory Service to the United Nations and the European Commission, immigration is no “fix” for an ageing society, because immigrants grow old too; there are no generalised labour shortages, rather unemployment of 1.5 million; importing communities who are far more likely to claim all forms of benefit apart from pensions and disability allowances, and who can have startlingly high unemployment rates, does not make Britain a richer country. It is, in fact, importing poverty.

Immigration increases the size of the economy — how could it not? — but there is no evidence that it increases the one measure that matters, gross domestic product per capita. There are some shortages of skills, but only a tiny proportion of immigrants is plugging those gaps.

Sure, immigrants contribute more in taxes than they consume in benefits, but that is only because there are so many highly paid immigrants such as American bankers and European executives paying more than their share. Immigrants from the Third World — who are responsible for the entire net immigration of a quarter of a million a year — suffer higher unemployment and lower earnings than average and almost certainly do not pay their way.

The only reason for this net current immigration is not that Britain needs immigrants, but that immigrants want Britain. It is not even particularly good for the countries they come from. Stealing the most energetic, entrepreneurial or educated from the Third World is a very inefficient development policy.

The one thing it does do is change the face of Britain, rapidly. One child in eight is now from an ethnic minority, rising to one in three in London. So-called “ethnic minorities” together form a majority in boroughs such as Brent and Newham, and in whole neighbourhoods of cities in the North you can wander around for hours without seeing a white face, one monoculture having replaced another. Cities such as Coventry, Leicester and London are vying to see which can become the first white-minority city.

Flemster, the fact that they go to rich Western countries only shows that they care more about prosperity and making a future for their kids than they do about living in an Islamic society. They might be pretty conservative, just like Americans pre-1960's, but their kids don't usually follow in the same footsteps. Don't overestimate people's religiousity.
Alaric, you mention America here. Well I'm not sure whether there are religious problems in the USA because of immigration, but I do know that Americans are losing their country, too, but Americans are not allowed to say so. Third World immigration to the United States is higher than to Britain. One in five of the U.S. population was born abroad or born of parents who were born abroad. This is a massive change from 1970, when new immigrants counted for only one in 20 U.S. births.

While the British worry about losing cities to Third World immigrants, the United States is losing entire states. Assimilation has broken down. In its place, Americans now endure Third World enclaves or colonies. As the United States becomes a polyglot, how can it have any foreign policy? How much longer will the United States be able to conduct a pro-Israeli foreign policy and plan invasions of Middle Eastern countries?

The outlines of U.S. domestic policy in the New Immigrationist State (NIS) are already apparent. The tax burdens on native-born whites will rise to meet the needs of the poor immigrants. The burden of the federal personal income tax rests on a narrow base of 35 million taxpayers who are, in effect, slaves of the state. The colonization of these taxpayers will intensify, as millions of needy new immigrants enter the United States each year.

The United States, like Britain, faces extinction as a nation-state. Both countries are becoming colonies for a plethora of Third World cultures.

Proud Muslim, I have a question for you:

If Muslims are so intent on 'intergrating' into western society and only 'wish to practise their religion' in peace, then why, when running away-- sorry, 'immigrating'-- do they not go to any of the many Muslim countries around the world?

Or we can put the question this way:

Why, if the west is so perfect, more than 200,000 westerners living and working in ''oppressive'' Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Muslim countries ??? :rolleyes:

There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims livining and working in other Muslim states such as Saudi, Kuwait, UAE....etc

They're not all oppressive dictatorships and dusty shit-holes, are they?

You know what I think of you ?? you are one of those burger eating, fat, dumb americans who dont know where is California on the map of the USA let alone the world !!

Move your fat ass from your hole and have a visit to other countries you FREEDOM FRIES DUMB !! :D

Why choose a country where they know they're going to be less than welcome, such as America, England or anywhere else free-thinking people can express their opinions?

Well, if you are talking about America, then it is not up to fat dumbs like you to decide who should or should not come to America, it is up to the NATIVE AMERICANS, now, get the hell out of America back to your Irish POTATO farm where you could starve and lose some weight, you asshole.

Is it, as I suspect, merely a way of 'intergrating' Westerners into the fun-loving, ham-dodging Muslim religion?

I'll pass, thanks. I like my bacon rolls too much.

Happy thoughts, PM, happy thoughts...!

As I expected, you are just a pig, dont get me wrong, filthy pig.

Why, if the west is so perfect, more than 200,000 westerners living and working in ''oppressive'' Saudi Arabia and other Gulf Muslim countries ??? :rolleyes:

So that we can extract oil.





You know what I think of you ?? you are one of those burger eating, fat, dumb americans who dont know where is California on the map of the USA let alone the world !!

Move your fat ass from your hole and have a visit to other countries you FREEDOM FRIES DUMB !! :D

Well, if you are talking about America, then it is not up to fat dumbs like you to decide who should or should not come to America, it is up to the NATIVE AMERICANS, now, get the hell out of America back to your Irish POTATO farm where you could starve and lose some weight, you asshole.

As I expected, you are just a pig, dont get me wrong, filthy pig

And you crave tolerance with an attitude like yours.

Your sort aren't welcome in any country - Including your own.

Viena muslims are every where..............and they are there to stay. ..... you can't do Jack about it. :D

Now don't go start killing all the brown skin people since you are pretty ignorant and cant differe between a christian arab/muslim arab/ahtiest arab/jewish arab or hell you can't tell a differnce between mexican and indian. lol :D

Alaric, you mention America here. ... The United States, like Britain, faces extinction as a nation-state. Both countries are becoming colonies for a plethora of Third World cultures.

First of all, America is not, and has never been, a nation-state. The whole idea (in theory, at least) was to have a free country where people could come and believe, and mostly do, as they wished. It was supposed to be a colony for cultures throughout the world. In fact Denmark is one of the very few real nation-states in the world - one people, one language, few areas outside of Denmark where Danes live together (a community lives south of the border in Germany). Britain could probably be called a nation-state to some extent, but its still made up of British, Cornish, Welsh, Scottish, Manx and Irish. And likewise with many countries throughout Europe. Basques, for example, are a nation without a state, and the US (and technically every American country) is a state without a nation. That's not to say one is better than the other - I think the American idea makes more sense ideologically, but is difficult to realise effectively. Strong common bonds within a community are very important to people, allowing greater trust among the members - that's also probably why Americans are more fanatically liberal and/or religious than Danes, who take common bonds for granted, but then are less tolerant to divergent views.

Of course you still develop some kind of common identity, but unlike a nation-state which centres around a common culture and history, the US is based on a liberal ideology. That's why new immigrants have to make that pledge of allegience to respect the Constitution, but otherwise are left pretty much to fend for themselves, while Danes just tell immigrants (that make it in) to respect the national values and assimilate themselves to Danish norms. There's a big difference.

And what tax burden? You Americans don't know what heavy taxation is...we have to cope with over 50%. :rolleyes: That's another quirk with the nation-state - governments win elections by promising more services, better health care, and therefore higher taxes, while in the US the sense of community isn't so great so you just want to keep as much of what you earn as possible (it seems).

Viena muslims are every where..............and they are there to stay. ..... you can't do Jack about it. :D

Now don't go start killing all the brown skin people since you are pretty ignorant and cant differe between a christian arab/muslim arab/ahtiest arab/jewish arab or hell you can't tell a differnce between mexican and indian. lol :D

Vienna is confused man, May God help him, I dont hate him, I feel sorry for him, his hate will consume him:

HATE IS FIRE THAT ENGULFS THE HATER FIRST... :(

Immigration in Britain is mainly from the muslim areas of the world and it imports poverty, creates parallel communities and increases social tensions, crime, and public health problems such as TB and AIDS.

Unless immigration declines IN Britain, it will add more than 2 million people every ten years. The Government Actuary Service estimates that with immigration of 195,000 a year (very close to the present level of legal immigration), the UK population will grow from 59.8 million in 2000 to 68.0 million in 2031.


Here are some concrete FACTS:

Britain does NOT have a declining population - more babies are born each year than people die, and this is expected to carry on for another twenty years. The Government Actuary Service predicts that, with zero net migration, the population will grow very gently from 59.8m in 2000 to 60.3 in 2020.

Britain does NOT have a declining workforce, but the fastest growing workforce in Europe. This is largely because of the increase in the retirement age of women from 60 to 65 between 2010 and 2020. The Government Actuary Service predicts that, with zero net immigration, the workforce will grow by 1.2m by 2020, from 36.89m in 2000 to 38.127m in 2020.

Britain is NOTsuffering a demographic time bomb, with an unsupportable burden of pensioners on the working population. Rather, the ratio of economically dependent children and pensioners compared to the working age population is expected to get more benign over the next twenty years. The Government Actuary Service predicts that the number of children and pensioners per thousand people of working age will fall from 620 in 2000 to 583 in 2020.

Britain is NOT suffering from generalised labour shortages - according to the Labour Force Survey there are 1.55 million unemployed in the UK, with an extra 2.3m who are out of work but want to work but don't look for work largely because they don't think they will be able to get jobs that pay well enough.

As recognised by every authority and study on the issue (including the Government Actuary Service, the Home Office, the Council of Europe and OECD), immigration is no 'fix' for an ageing population, because immigrants grow old too. An ageing society is utterly inevitable, and Britain will have to take policies to adjust to it, irrespective of whether there is immigration or not.

Immigration leads to immigrant communities with high unemployment rates and low incomes.

Immigrants from the Third World - who make up the entire net immigration to the UK - are on average less well educated, suffer higher unemployment, claim more of most forms of benefits, and make more demands on public services such as schools and hospitals, and almost certainly do not pay their way.

There is also NO evidence that British people actually want to be culturally enriched by immigration from around the globe, any more than the people of Nigeria, India, Saudi Arabia or China do.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

HATE IS FIRE THAT ENGULFS THE HATER FIRST...
And the Qu'ran starts the fire.

I note that you don't disagree with my above statement, this is unusual as you often disagree with the truth.

Denmark doesn't NEED muslims and neither does Britain, it is the muslims who need us

And the Qu'ran starts the fire.

I note that you don't disagree with my above statement, this is unusual as you often disagree with the truth.

Denmark doesn't NEED muslims and neither does Britain, it is the muslims who need us


Muslims are coming viena be prepare to leave your town soon. :D :cool:

Muslims are coming viena be prepare to leave your town soon. :D :cool:

Yawn! :rolleyes:

If there are more people wanting to live in Britain than we can feasibly accept, then Britain has to tell people they cannot move here. We have to accept that people just do not have the right to live where they want in the world, and that the people of Britain have a right to decide who can move here.

Wanting open borders is a noble aim, but not while there are such global imbalances in wealth that it causes destabilising population flows.

Yawn! :rolleyes:

If there are more people wanting to live in Britain than we can feasibly accept, then Britain has to tell people they cannot move here. We have to accept that people just do not have the right to live where they want in the world, and that the people of Britain have a right to decide who can move here.

Wanting open borders is a noble aim, but not while there are such global imbalances in wealth that it causes destabilising population flows.

They are coming viena, becareful about what you say. They are watching you. hahhaha
:D

They are coming viena, becareful about what you say. They are watching you. hahhaha
:D
LOL you really shouldn't feed his paranoia anymore 567, it's bad enough as it is :p.

I come from Slovenia, a small European country. The issue fiercely debated here these days is whether to allow the Muslim minority to build a mosque in the capitol city (that would be the first one here then).

It is interesting what the Catholic church (Slovenia is traditionally catholic)and the Right Parties say: "We are for religious freedom and tolerance, but we oppose the mosque."
I think that's a lot of BS. :mad:

Anyways, in these debates, the Muslim leader has proven to have the most integrity of all the persons involved, next to the Liberal Party. The way the Muslims present themselves here, is far better than what most Christians, esp. Catholics do. The Muslim leader here has a strength of character that is rarely seen in Catholic leaders. I think this is quite a source of discontent among the Catholics here ...

Proud Muslim,
I'm not trying to suck up to you. :) I just stated my admiration for the Muslim leader here.

Thank you Rosa for showing us how Muslims are suffering discrimination in Europe.

Thank you for your support, Islam is very beautiful religion if you try to understand it.

Salam ( Peace ).

The Muslim leader here has a strength of character that is rarely seen in Catholic leaders.
Its not strength of character its called fanatical.

We have similar here in England.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38707000/jpg/_38707025_hamza_300.jpg

Profile: Abu Hamza

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2668343.stm

Cleric stripped of citizenship

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2919291.stm

RosaMagika, Look at other countries before deciding.

Obviously you seem content to let them build a mosque, but as soon as one is built, hundreds follow. Once they start, there's no stopping 'em.... LOL! :)

It's up to you

Re: Rosa

Here is interesting article about Islam in Slovenia:

ISLAM: A NEW RELIGION IN A TRADITIONALLY CATHOLIC SLOVENIA

by Drago Ocvirk

Dr. Drago Ocvirk (Roman Catholic) is a priest and professor of practical theology at the Theological School of the University of Ljubljana, Slovenia. This paper was prepared for a "Dialogue of Christian-Muslim Collaboration" in Egham, England, May 29-June 1, 1995.

An Entirely New Situation

Slovenia is a new state in postcommunist Europe. Before Yugoslavia broke apart Slovenia was a part of it. Slovenia had been economically the most developed and the richest republic of all six Yugoslav republics. Because of this there were always a large number immigrant workers from the southern parts of Yugoslavia. This economic emigration was not stable because the workers used to return to their own native republic when they had saved enough money to create a satisfying situation in their native republic.

Although these people came from different parts of the former Yugoslavia--they were Croats, Serbs, Macedonians, Muslims (from Bosnia-Herzegovina recognized as national entity regardless religion) and Albanians--all these people speak the same language i.e. Serb-Croat except for the Albanians from Kosovo, who speak Albanian. From this point of view they lived and worked in the society that speaks another language, namely Slovene. Culturally and historically Slovenia was for them a strange country. For this reason mainly, they wanted to return as soon as possible to their own countries.

There was an other important difference related to very different religious background (Croats are Catholics, Serbs and Macedonians Orthodox, Muslims from Bosnia and Albanians from Kosovo are Muslims). It is true that most have not practiced their religion, which functioned mostly as one of important elements of cultural and national identity. Since, with the exception of the Albanians, these people regarded their religious denomination as the most important characteristic of differentiation from each other, without really knowing much about their religion or practicing it. The atheistic Communist regime vigorously encouraged the loss of their religious belief and practice.

The Muslim Community

Nevertheless, the Muslim community was registered with the Slovene state in former Yugoslavia for the first time of 1967. Prior to that they obtained their first house of prayer on 1981; they had been meeting in the lobby of Catholic Theological School in Ljubljana. Until the end of the former Yugoslavia the Muslims did not intend to stay in Slovenia, so they were dependent upon their Islamic authorities in Sarajevo (Bosnia). Only after Yugoslavia's breakdown and the war in Bosnia have they formed their province in Slovenia under authority of the mufti.

This community in Slovenia is subdivided in thirteen smaller communities with seven houses for prayer, meeting, and administration. What is important to underline is the fact that this Muslim community comprises only the Bosnian's Muslims who speak Serbo-Croat whereas Albanian Muslims from Kosovo do not participate in it.

In Slovenia there are about 120,000 Muslims (regarded as nationality rather than religion) from Bosnia. Only 30,000 of them are Slovenian citizens and will remain in Slovenia. Others are refugees who want to return in Bosnia once the war ends. Only 5,000 to 6,000 of these Muslims also practice Islam as religion. The others are entirely indifferent to Islam. They regard it only as an historical and cultural remnant.

The organized Muslim community is for the moment very unstable because its members do not know what their future will be. Most of them would like to return to their native country, i.e. Bosnia-Herzegovina, as soon as possible. In this provisional situation the authorities of Islamic community have for the time being three priorities.

First, they want to gather a larger number of people who feel either nationally or religiously or both as Muslims. Thereby, they try to organize a greater sense of solidarity not only among themselves in Slovenia but also with their compatriots and coreligionists in war-torn Bosnia.

Secondly, they try to preserve their national sentiments and characteristics. For this reason they would like to conserve their own Serbo-croat language in the Slovene-speaking society. This will be rather difficult because the younger generation of Muslims are gradually being assimilated.

The third purpose of Muslim religious authorities is to conserve their religious community and to attract their Muslim compatriots to their original religious faith. These efforts also meet many obstacles in the very secular and liberal Slovenian society.

The Possibility for Inter-Religious Dialogue

Until now there has not been any significant attempt to establish a dialogue between the Muslim and Catholic communities. Nevertheless, both have had to cope with a secularized society where a large number of people are entirely indifferent to religious faith and belief. Muslims and Catholics could therefore offer together some common spiritual values and open new horizons of sensitivity and solidarity to their neighbors.

A common dialogue with (post)communist and (post)modern society also could preserve Islamic and Catholic communities from fundamentalist tendencies. In fact, one may already notice these tendencies among the faithful Muslims especially because of the Western incapacity to impose the respect of human rights in the Bosnian conflict. They believe that the West has abandoned them and tolerates ethnic cleansing carried out by Serb extremists.

Likewise, an Islamic-Catholic dialogue in Slovenia may permit the participants to discover respect for spiritual treasures and build a peaceful, democratic and pluralistic society in Slovenia.

ROSAMAGIKA

ISLAM WILL NEVER JOIN UP WITH ANY OTHER FAITH - THOUGH IT MAY APPEAR TO DO SO TO MEET ITS NEEDS, LIKE A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING.

The Islamic doctrine of Jihad against Jews, Christians, and "pagans" is a permanent position of Islam.

LETS SEE WHAT THE QURAN SAYS ABOUT IT.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. [Qu'ran 9.29]

Notice then:"Fight","until ", "pay", "feel". Were the verse only an "ancient historical account of a battle", the verse would say "Fought", "paid", and "felt". Even a school boy understands the difference between present and past tense sentance structure. Muslims then go on to attempt to continue their denial by citing the Bible's Old Testament passages of violence and war as evidence that Islam is no different than any other religion in it's accounts of violence. Nothing could be further from the truth, and this argument by them is decimated by the striking difference in sentance structure between the Bible and the Qu'ran:

"The Lord said to David", "And David slew Goliath", "and the Lord commanded them", "and they went up".

In fact, the past tense sentance structure of The Bible's historical content is clearly self evident in it's recognition of seperation of statements of doctrine from recounting of past events. That the Qu'ran's verses of war against Jews and Christians are specificly NOT written in the past tense is PROOF that the commands are statements of permanent doctrine with regard to the treatment of Jews and Christians.

Now let us examine more of the Qu'ran's commandments to followers of Islam:

Then fight in Allah' s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment. [Qu'ran 4:84]

I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them [Qu'ran 8:12]

Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, [Qu'ran 9:14]

In the Qu'ran, the Muslim is also absolved by Allah from any personal moral culpability for the murder of unbelievers. Read the following verse:

It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah: when thou threwest (a handful of dust), it was not thy act, but Allah's: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself [Qu'ran 8:17]

As compelling as the facts thus far in evidence are that Islam explicitly teaches it's followers to wage war against Jews and Christians, there is one final argument the Islamic propagandist bent upon concealing the true nature of Islam from the westerner makes when all else fails. It goes something like this:

" You can not rely on the translations of the Qu'ran into English. The glorious Qu'ran contains the very speech of Allah and it's true meaning can only be understood in Arabic where it's sacred message is unveiled by Allah himself ".

We are able to decimate this blatent lie with the "Surah". What is a Surah? A Surah is a clarification and a summation of the MEANING of specific verses of the Qu'ran for Islamic doctrine. Surah are not "the actual speech of Allah", but the Islamic tradition's OWN INTERPERTATION of the Qu'ran to the followers of Islam. Let us then look at Islam's OWN interpertation of Islam...........

It is a 'divine' commandment to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death (Surah 8:39; 9:5,29: 47:4).

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Proud Muslim,

Thanx for your input.
The article you quoted hasn't brought much new info for me; I have to make some comments though:

Slovenia may had been industrially the most developed country in former Yugoslavia, but also, excuse the not so objective expression, the most vain of them. Slovenes traditionally looked down on their "southern brothers", esp. after WWII. When Slovenes went to the Croatian coast or other parts of YU for the summer holidays, for example, most of them insisted in speaking Slovene, not Croatian or Serbian or Bosnian; and they expected Croatians and others to speak Slovene. How much this Slovene vanity has to do with Slovenes traditionally being Catholics, remains open.

Another important fact is that historically, the former Yugoslav countries were first united in a state after WWI; before that, they belonged to different foreign rulers. Slovenia has been a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, also Croatia, while all other countries belonged to the Osman Empire in one way or another until the end of WWI.
Although in the past, esp. throughout the 19. century, those nations felt connected through language -- Slovene, Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Macedonian are sister languages -- they were culturally and economically divided by the different foreign rulers.


About the workers from other countries that came to Slovenia, Ocvirk says that, "Culturally and historically Slovenia was for them a strange country. For this reason mainly, they wanted to return as soon as possible to their own countries."
This is nothing special. Esp. Germany and also Austria experienced the same thing; people from southern countries went to work there, and to return to their native countries as soon as they made enough money.
I think that stating that the main reason for going back was that Slovenia was a "strange country", is a bit misleading.
Maybe from the American POV, it is normal to move from one country to another, but I don't think it has ever been so in Europe. People simply didn't move around a lot, they were very "domestic", family ties were very important (esp. in southern countries) and much more so in the past. You went to work (be it America, Germany or Slovenia), made money, brought it home to the family, that's the motto.


"Since, with the exception of the Albanians, these people regarded their religious denomination as the most important characteristic of differentiation from each other, without really knowing much about their religion or practicing it."That's disputable. Most "simple people" don't know much (" ") about their religion. How many Catholics can list the 12 Apostles, or are virgins when they get married? ...


"The atheistic Communist regime vigorously encouraged the loss of their religious belief and practice."
The so called "atheistic Communist regime" "encouraged" the "loss" of all religious belief and practice, including Catholicism. The Communists separated the Church from the state, of course. Catholics practised their religion more or less the same as before, they didn't have the influence that they once had in the government any more though.
There is one major issue with the Catholic church here: during WWII, the Catholic church supported the Nazis and the Fascists; they were willing to give them our country and to Germanize and Italianize all Slovenes. And that was something that not even the Catholic people were willing to accept just like that.


"Only 5,000 to 6,000 of these Muslims also practice Islam as religion. The others are entirely indifferent to Islam. They regard it only as an historical and cultural remnant."

If you point out one phenomenon, its characteristics may seem striking. But many cultural, religious etc. entities regard their culture, religion etc. as an "historical and cultural remnant" -- so that's not specific just for Muslims.


As for the three priorities of the Islamic authorities that Ocvirk states -- don't pretty much all religions "try to organize a greater sense of solidarity", "try to preserve their national sentiments and characteristics" and to "conserve their religious community and to attract /other/ compatriots to their original religious faith"?
The article was written by a Catholic priest. I know that I am biased, but living here taught me that when the Catholic church is striving to survive, it says it is ok, but when someone else states those same goals to simply survive, the Catholic church feels attacked.

All I'm saying is that that article tends to generalize or simplify things a bit.



Vienna,

ISLAM WILL NEVER JOIN UP WITH ANY OTHER FAITH - THOUGH IT MAY APPEAR TO DO SO TO MEET ITS NEEDS, LIKE A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING.
I don't think any religion actually wants to "join up with any other faith" -- they just want to live and be what they are. How they tend to that is something else though.

The reason why I admire the Muslim leader here, Dzogic, is that he, merely with his air and posture evokes a natural respect in me, the same as the Dhalai Lama.
You should hear the speech the Catholic archbishop Rode has at Christmas! Those Catholics look down on everybody who is not Catholic as if we were the scum of the earth. While the Protestant, the Muslim and some other minorities show a respect for all others. They don't meet us with "We hope that you will one day join our religion" like the Catholics or Mormons do. Protestants, Muslims and Buddhists here let one be.

Here is a deal, you expell your muslim minorities, we expell our christian minority and the 200-400 thousands westerners living and working in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf region PLUS we switch OFF the oil taps, how about that ?

Fair deal, huh ?
You do realise the oil threat only works for a few more years, what about after that? Should we just let you people starve?

You do realise the oil threat only works for a few more years, what about after that? Should we just let you people starve?

You do realize that we survived for THOUSANDS of years before the Oil, dont you ???

:rolleyes:

Proud Muslim,

Thanx for your input.
The article you quoted hasn't brought much new info for me; I have to make some comments though:

Thank you for your comments, I dont have enough information about Slovenia, but I promise you to read more...I have seen some photos from your country, they are lovely, in 2 month time you will join us in the European Union, I wish this move will bring Europe closer to you although most of these European governments already took drastic messaure against people like you from coming to the EU to live and work...the hypocrites dont mind exporting their goods to you but they mind importing anything from you !!! very sad.

the Muslim and some other minorities show a respect for all others. They don't meet us with "We hope that you will one day join our religion" like the Catholics or Mormons do. Protestants, Muslims and Buddhists here let one be.

Thank you Rosa for your kind remarks, Vienna is one of those christians who look down at others, he is racist and hater, dont take him seriously.

You do realize that we survived for THOUSANDS of years before the Oil, dont you ???

:rolleyes:

Different times though

Thank you Rosa for your kind remarks, Vienna is one of those christians who look down at others, he is racist and hater, dont take him seriously.
I am not a Christian Nor do I belong to any religious sect. I am not racist.

I detest muslims like proud muslim and their schemeing and lying religion.

in 2 month time you will join us in the European Union, I wish this move will bring Europe closer to you
Very pro - Europe comments......... but in the same breath you go and change to anti - Europe
although most of these European governments already took drastic messaure against people like you from coming to the EU to live and work...the hypocrites dont mind exporting their goods to you but they mind importing anything from you !!! very sad.

This is NOT your Europe Proud Muslim, and England is NOT your country.

What I find so strange about 'certain' muslims in the west is that they despice the western people and rules, yet they are staying here.

Muslim immigration is a huge problem in Europe, especialy those from Arab countries.

I saw a BBC doc about Trappes in France. It is a city overrun by Muslims. All the pubs are closed, because Muslims can only drink alcohol when nobody sees it. There is one bookstore. It sells the Koran and books like it. More and more women walk about the street with veils.

The Muslims start their own school, full of misinformation. They teach about the big bang. But then they add that Allah has said all these things already a long time ago. Proud of integrating big bang theory, they don't see the danger of mixing science and religion. They don't see that if you hook a theory to Allah, it is hard to change it afterwards.

The children are taught in school that Coca Cola is the drink of Satan. That's why they come home and take the bottles out of their parents' refrigerators to throw them away. So the Muslims aren't only mixing religion with science, they also add politics to the stinking pile.

The Muslim women wanted to go and protest against a French law on the wearing of veils. Immediately, the men took over the organisation. They rented the busses: one for the men, and one for the women. The man checked the slogans to see if they liked them. They also instructed the women about not talking to the press. Muslims tend to supress women and give all sorts of stupid explanations for doing so: they want it like that! She wants to stay home with the children! She likes to obey me.

The Muslims didn't get a permit to build an Islamic center in Trappes. So 1000 of them marched to the city hall in protest. They obtained the permit. Now they know that politics can't stop them. It won't take long before muslims are in city counsil. Trappes is now beautified by a 7000 square meters center for Islam.

Concerned inhabitants of Trappes, non Muslims, held an evening of debate about the rights of women and anti-discrimination. Muslim women were present. They can not be debated. They have the truth in a book, you know? They aren't sensitive for debate and arguments, cause they use authority as an argument.

A man who ran an improvisation school saw how the number of female members started decreasing. Muslim women shouldn't be doing stupid things like improvisation. There are lots of babies to make and raise.

I said before: it are mainly the Arab Muslims that cause trouble. I live in Belgium. Some metro stations are governed by gangs of North Africans: people from Maroq and the like. I don't know if they hide behind religion or not for what they do, but they just terrorize the people and they destroy the trains. Police doesn't dare to enter these stations, much too dangerous.

Conclusion: Europe is fucked. Our own laws of equality and fraternity have lead millions of fundamentalistic medieval dumbasses to our countries. There is no way back, cause our stupid nationality laws have given everybody the European nationality.

I say medieval not as a random flame, but because it is true. These people don't have the background it takes to see how important it is to separate church, state and religion. Within the next 50 years, the problem will become more urgent. There is no solution, this will end in violence: riots and more wars. What the Muslims need, is their own renaissance. I can't believe the stupidity of fundamentalists.

That's all I have to say. Run while you can. Northern European countries aren't that bad. A large ranch in Californië will keep you safe for a while.

God created the world, religion will end it.

Vienna is confused man, May God help him, I dont hate him, I feel sorry for him, his hate will consume him:

HATE IS FIRE THAT ENGULFS THE HATER FIRST... :(


I think you need to lay off the drugs PM, it's not doing you any good.

Oh and as a repressed female with no rights and no freedom, i think most of us feel sorry for you. Go to your local library, read some history, educate yourself and get a life!

When will you, if ever, elect your first female president !! :rolleyes:

Why is that so important to you?

Besides the UK already had a female prime minister if i'm not mistaken.

2 wrongs don't make a right, Proud_Muslim.

I agree james, so when will you recognize your own wrongs instead of preaching on Muslims their wrongs ???? :rolleyes:

...the moment they understand the importance of distinction between relgion, politics and science?

Conclusion: Europe is fucked. Our own laws of equality and fraternity have lead millions of fundamentalistic medieval dumbasses to our countries. There is no way back, cause our stupid nationality laws have given everybody the European nationality.

You can rant the way you want about Islam and Muslims, you can LIE and mislead and misinform people the way you want, but Muslims are here to STAY, if you dont like it go and climb the wall and shake your tail.

When you bastard Europeans came and COLONIZED our countries for long years ( Algeria for 130 years ) Syria for 26 years, MUSLIM INDIA FOR 200 YEARS, Morocco for nearly 50 years, Egypt for about 30 years, Iraq for 30 years, Libya for 40 years...etc and when you dumbed your jews on our land ( Palestine ) to get rid of them, you did not think about the future...well, it is JUST ABOUT TIME YOU PAY BACK, and how sweet seeing you paying back !! :p

When the adulterous French were colonizing my land( Syria ) they did not learn ARABIC, they did not respect the culture of the land they live in, they tried to change it, they tried to erase ARABIC and ISLAM from our collective memory, Now, in Algeria, they speak very broken Arabic with so many French words in it !!! at least, Muslims in Europe are not doing that, do you want us to go further to do the same things you europeans did to us ???

HYPOCRITES !!

...the moment they understand the importance of distinction between relgion, politics and science?

You got the question wrong mate, I am asking James !! :rolleyes:

You give good examples of the point I am trying to make...

The UN Charter forbids colonisation. We realised it was wrong to do so, and the colonies regained independence. Respect for other countries and cultures is also written down in many legal documents. All members of the EU support the Charter of Human Rights. You know what human rights are?

Muslims have this annoying way of shoving their religion in your face as the truth. What they need is their own renaissance. A religion with worldy powers has never done any good for anyone.

When you go to a country, you adapt. You learn the language, you respect the laws and the culture. Muslims don't have that reflex. They define themselves by an agressive interpretation of an otherwise 12 in a dozen relgion.

Of course there are Muslims with whom living together in the same country is possible. It depends on their level of adaptation and respect for others. But I have yet to encounter the first male Muslim who saw a female as his equal. Of course that is just an example, but it is so typical for these medieval minds. What year are Muslims in now? Already passed 1500? Let me know if you do...

Oh, you were asking James. Then ignore my answer, just as you ignored most of my post. Take out a few lines at which you can spout your propaganda. Here, I'll give you an example:

do you want us to go further to do the same things you europeans did to us ???

Is that a threat? Cause if it is, it is just proof of how superior Christianity is! You came to Spain and tried to take over Europe! Now we will crush you like the Muslim dogs you are! Prepare for more spanking of your booty!

*sigh*

You can rant the way you want about Islam and Muslims, you can LIE and mislead and misinform people the way you want, but Muslims are here to STAY, if you dont like it go and climb the wall and shake your tail.

Ha! time to stir it up.


We kicked you out of europe before and will do it again

You give good examples of the point I am trying to make...
The UN Charter forbids colonisation. We realised it was wrong to do so, and the colonies regained independence.

The regained independence after what ?? after you robbed our land of its wealth ! after you turned our economies into western dependent consuming economies !!!

Respect for other countries and cultures is also written down in many legal documents. All members of the EU support the Charter of Human Rights. You know what human rights are?

Oh yes, EU Countries respect human rights : :rolleyes:

Amnesty finds only two EU states uphold human rights

Amnesty told Ireland, which took over the union's rotating presidency on January 1, that only two of the 15 current member states - Luxembourg and the Netherlands - could be given a clean bill of health.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1121918,00.html

Muslims have this annoying way of shoving their religion in your face as the truth. What they need is their own renaissance. A religion with worldy powers has never done any good for anyone.

You are a LIAR, Muslims dont go around knocking doors and asking people to believe in Allah or they are condemned to hell !!

Muslims dont own and operate large TV missionary stations in which brain washing materials are displayed 24 hours / 7 days a week.

I know what is your problem !! you are annoyed that ONLY Muslims seems to follow their religion to the letter, you are pissed off that Muslims practice their great religion whenever they go..

When you go to a country, you adapt. You learn the language, you respect the laws and the culture.

Again, you are a LIAR, most of the Muslims in Europe speak the langauge of the country they live in, most NORTH AFRICAN MUSLIMS in Europe speak FLUENT French since the age of 5 years old and you bloody know it..

I speak 3 European Languages and I am respecting the laws and the culture I am living in, I work hard, I pay my tax ( so that my adopted governemnt can pay your parents pension )...

The problem is your OWN racism and discrimination against minorities, I was just watching the Swedish TV, before I wrote this post to you, the speaker was Basher Qurashy, the head of the European anti racism centre, he stated SHOCKING facts about discrimination against minorites in Europe...in Denmark for example, the rate of unemployment between minorities reachs STAGGERING 85 % !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and you talk about adopting !!

Have a look here:

http://www.enar-eu.org/

And this one:

European Union annual report: signs of growing racism and xenophobia

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/feb2000/raci-f23.shtml

Muslims don't have that reflex. They define themselves by an agressive interpretation of an otherwise 12 in a dozen relgion.

Muslims dont sell out their religion for earthy rubbish, this must be very clear for you.

Of course there are Muslims with whom living together in the same country is possible. It depends on their level of adaptation and respect for others. But I have yet to encounter the first male Muslim who saw a female as his equal.

You have seen that because you are either ignorant or BLIND, I tend to take the first which mean you are ignorant:

Did you know that the president of the largest Muslim country in the world is MUSLIM WOMAN ??? President megawati of Indonesia .

Of course that is just an example, but it is so typical for these medieval minds. What year are Muslims in now? Already passed 1500? Let me know if you do...

And of course PORN, SEX, ALCOHOL, DRUGS ABUSE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, RAPE, HEDONISISM..ETC are all MODERN European traits...keep all that to you, we are quite happy with what we have...how many times you fell on the ground in the middle of the street DRUNK while peeing in your pants ????

Oh, you were asking James. Then ignore my answer, just as you ignored most of my post. Take out a few lines at which you can spout your propaganda. Here, I'll give you an example:

I did not ignore your post, but I dont answer LIES and RUBBISH...when you come up with FACTS supported with credible sources, then you can be dignified with answer, I dont have time for LIES you know...

Is that a threat? Cause if it is, it is just proof of how superior Christianity is! You came to Spain and tried to take over Europe! Now we will crush you like the Muslim dogs you are! Prepare for more spanking of your booty!

it is amazing your bigotry and hate !! When Muslims were ruling SPAIN, it was the beacon of TOLERANCE and CIVILIZATION, I refer you to famous WESTERN NON MUSLIM HISTORIAN, DEAN DERHAK:

did you know that long before the renaissance there was a place of humanistic beauty in Muslim Spain? Not only was it artistic, scientific and commercial, but it also exhibited incredible tolerance, imagination and poetry. Moors, as the Spaniards call the Muslims, populated Spain for nearly 700 years. As you'll see, it was their civilization that enlightened Europe and brought it out of the dark ages to usher in the renaissance. Many of their cultural and intellectual influences still live with us today.


READ MORE AND FEED YOUR SCANDELOUS IGNORANCE:

http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm

As for christianity being superior, you will be very interested to read this:

JESUS GOING BUST IN EUROPE !!! :D

Church may end up as sect, warns bishop

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1174137,00.html

The 'Withering' of Christianity in Europe

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/1225236.html

GOOD BYE CHRISTIANITY....GOOD BYE JESUS !!! :D

GOOD BYE CHRISTIANITY....GOOD BYE JESUS !!!

Goodbye religion

Ha! time to stir it up.
We kicked you out of europe before and will do it again

LOL !! What do you call this city now ?? who run this EUROPEAN EX-CHRISTIAN CITY NOW ??? :D

http://www.balsoy.com/Turkiye/inpictures/pictures/istanbul17.jpg

yep, you guess it, it is ISTANBUL and guess what ? it was the captial of christianity, now it is MUSLIM !!! :)

Are you for real? :bugeye:

LOL !! What do you call this city now ?? who run this EUROPEAN EX-CHRISTIAN CITY NOW ??? :D

http://www.balsoy.com/Turkiye/inpictures/pictures/istanbul17.jpg

yep, you guess it, it is ISTANBUL and guess what ? it was the captial of christianity, now it is MUSLIM !!! :)

So? wtf is your point?

Guess I should post a picture of Israel and say: "This was a muslim country now it ain't" ?

You made stupid statement that you crushed Muslims from Europe, I countered that by exposing your ignorance not only of history but of reality as well.

Go and read little bit more about the world we live in before you come here and spit your ignorance.

You made stupid statement that you crushed Muslims from Europe, I countered that by exposing your ignorance not only of history but of reality as well.

I was referring to Spain and Vienna. Istanbul can be stolen as far as I care.

Go and read little bit more about the world we live in before you come here and spit your ignorance.
Please try to make a sentence with the following words: Pot, cattle, black :rolleyes:

I was referring to Spain and Vienna. Istanbul can be stolen as far as I care.

Istanbul is now Muslim city, all your argument about you kicking muslims out collapse when we know that this city was indeed the captial of christendom and now in MUSLIM HAND....you are too dumb to admit your defeat !!!

Please try to make a sentence with the following words: Pot, cattle, black

I dont know what the hell you are refering to, maybe some silly pathetic American cultural expression...but hey, watch the pot and the cattle in your back !!

:D

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~eby/toledo6.jpg

Wow look, here's Toledo Cathedral. Remember this one do you Proud Muslim.

This city of Spain used to belong to your muslim ancestors, and look at it now.

It's all Christian.

Proud Muslim - I have given an example of your stupidity, tell me what does it prove. Apart from nothing.........

Conclusion: Europe is fucked. Our own laws of equality and fraternity have lead millions of fundamentalistic medieval dumbasses to our countries. There is no way back, cause our stupid nationality laws have given everybody the European nationality.

Europe is not yet fucked, the Al Queda is threatening European countries, and Political Correctness is stifling the Europeans. And while the Government in the UK is still making preferences to ethnic minors and immigrants over the British natives there will always be resentment. Al Queda only has to attack the UK just the once, and when it does, the attitudes of the general public towards Islam will be devastating. I remember the terrible riots after 9/11, I can't imagine what will happen when Al Queda hits the UK. Maybe Al Queda just might stifle Islam in Europe all by itself.

Wow look, here's Toledo Cathedral. Remember this one do you Proud Muslim.
This city of Spain used to belong to your muslim ancestors, and look at it now.
It's all Christian.



NAH, you are the stupid here, Toledo was christian, then became Muslim then christian again.

Istanbul was christian then Muslim, then MUSLIM...opps....did I expose your stupidity !! :D

NAH, you are the stupid here, Toledo was christian, then became Muslim then christian again.

Istanbul was christian then Muslim, then MUSLIM...opps....did I expose your stupidity !! :D
Not at all - you just confirmed yours.

BTW - you couldn't defeat Vienna - and you'll never master this one.

Toodle pip old boy. :D

The regained independence after what ?? after you robbed our land of its wealth ! after you turned our economies into western dependent consuming economies !!!

Europe would help, if Syria and it's fellow countries would stop supporting terrorism.

Ending colonisation is a step in the good direction. A lot of what happens next is up to the newly dependent states.

Amnesty told Ireland, which took over the union's rotating presidency on January 1, that only two of the 15 current member states - Luxembourg and the Netherlands - could be given a clean bill of health.

Don't you see the difference? We have laws concerning human rights, and we have institutions to exercise control. We can only grow towards more respect for human rights.

Don't worry, no decapitations in Europe.

You are a LIAR, Muslims dont go around knocking doors and asking people to believe in Allah or they are condemned to hell !!

We can get serious fines for crossing a street when the red light is on. But what do you know, it still happens a lot.

By the way, believing in "hell" as you seem to do, proofs how underdeveloped your religion really is. Hell is used to keep people small, to make them do what you want them to do.

If your religion ever develops into something civilised, your spiritual leaders will tell you that all those texts you so blindly follow should not be taken so literaly.

Muslims dont own and operate large TV missionary stations in which brain washing materials are displayed 24 hours / 7 days a week.

Maybe they should have them, so we can zap them away. Just like we zap away those idiots that are on now. We laugh at them. Do you understand that? Taking something lightly? Understanding that it is only crap that stupid people believe in blindly?

know what is your problem !! you are annoyed that ONLY Muslims seems to follow their religion to the letter, you are pissed off that Muslims practice their great religion whenever they go..

There are other underdeveloped people who follow religion blindly, don't be too flattered. And yes, it pisses me of that you people pracitce your religion WHEREVER you go. It's rude and stupid.

Again, you are a LIAR, most of the Muslims in Europe speak the langauge of the country they live in, most NORTH AFRICAN MUSLIMS in Europe speak FLUENT French since the age of 5 years old and you bloody know it..

Maybe those coming from French colonies. And you are talking about the MEN aren't you? It's not just language. It is a lack of respect for the guest country.

I speak 3 European Languages and I am respecting the laws and the culture I am living in, I work hard, I pay my tax ( so that my adopted governemnt can pay your parents pension )...

But deep down, you are waiting for the Islamic revolution. That's the problem.

The problem is your OWN racism and discrimination against minorities, I was just watching the Swedish TV, before I wrote this post to you, the speaker was Basher Qurashy, the head of the European anti racism centre, he stated SHOCKING facts about discrimination against minorites in Europe...in Denmark for example, the rate of unemployment between minorities reachs STAGGERING 85 % !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and you talk about adopting !!

Maybe this has something to do with the crimerates among these minorities? Have numbers and statistics 'bout those?

Muslims dont sell out their religion for earthy rubbish, this must be very clear for you.

It's this stubborn holding on to medieval principles that keeps all those countries from developing. But at least have the decency to screw up your own countries.

Did you know that the president of the largest Muslim country in the world is MUSLIM WOMAN ??? President megawati of Indonesia .

Have you read my post about Trappes in France? I'm sure all these women, suffocating in their veils will love to know this.

And of course PORN, SEX, ALCOHOL, DRUGS ABUSE, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, RAPE, HEDONISISM..ETC are all MODERN European traits...keep all that to you, we are quite happy with what we have...how many times you fell on the ground in the middle of the street DRUNK while peeing in your pants ????

Happy with what you have? Supressing homosexuals and women, drinking in hidden places, multiple mariages to have at least SOME relief of sexual tension,... yes... good for you.

I don't drink. Did you know there were non-Muslims who don't drink?

I did not ignore your post, but I dont answer LIES and RUBBISH...when you come up with FACTS supported with credible sources, then you can be dignified with answer, I dont have time for LIES you know...

Did you KNOW that capitalizing WORDS makes them SOUND more TRUE?

it is amazing your bigotry and hate !! When Muslims were ruling SPAIN, it was the beacon of TOLERANCE and CIVILIZATION

I wonder why we still kicked them out? Life was going great obviously.

As for christianity being superior, you will be very interested to read this:

I didn't say that. I said that it is all about how you handle your religion. And that's where Muslims often fail.

Proud_Muslim:

Me: 2 wrongs don't make a right, Proud_Muslim.

You: I agree james, so when will you recognize your own wrongs instead of preaching on Muslims their wrongs ????

I challenge you to quote any post of mine where I have preached about wrongs committed by Muslims. If you're going to make silly accusations, you ought to be prepared to back them up.

This thread is just insane! Proud Muslim is [deleted], ignoring her would be the best option. She's one of those people who is [deleted] you can't argue with them because they never truely get your point, and they always think they are smarter than you because they never truely get your point.
The sad thing is that it's [deleted] people like Proud Muslim which make it so easy for terrorists to recruit people to blow themselves up.

The sad thing is that it's retarded people like Proud Muslim which make it so easy for terrorists to recruit people to blow themselves up.
Sad? Frankly who cares what they want to do to themselves and family and friends? Doesn't affect you, no use being sad.

Oh and another note, two wrongs do sometimes make a right as has been proved many times before. The traditional explanation- a man steals a toaster from his neighbour. The owner goes to his house and steals it back. They both stole when they shouldn't have. But justice has been done and it is right.

Sad? Frankly who cares what they want to do to themselves and family and friends? Doesn't affect you, no use being sad.

Well sad because these idiots have the tendency to also blow up innocent bystanders.

Proud_Muslim:
I challenge you to quote any post of mine where I have preached about wrongs committed by Muslims. If you're going to make silly accusations, you ought to be prepared to back them up.

What do you call this James :

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=32242

:rolleyes:

Europe would help, if Syria and it's fellow countries would stop supporting terrorism.

Terrorism is like beauty, in the eyes of the beholder.

Ending colonisation is a step in the good direction. A lot of what happens next is up to the newly dependent states.

Give me a break [deleted], you went from the door and came back again from the window.

Don't you see the difference? We have laws concerning human rights, and we have institutions to exercise control. We can only grow towards more respect for human rights.

Your laws are joke, your laws are there just to throw sands in the eyes...you are bunch of HYPOCRITES.

Dont get me wrong, I am not generalizing all Europeans, SCANDINAVIAN countries apart from shity denmark are the most civilized of all EU memebrs.

We can get serious fines for crossing a street when the red light is on. But what do you know, it still happens a lot.

Can you prove it ???????? :rolleyes:

By the way, believing in "hell" as you seem to do, proofs how underdeveloped your religion really is. Hell is used to keep people small, to make them do what you want them to do.

On the other hand, disbelieving prove your primitive mind and your inability to see the obvious and the very clear, GOD.

If your religion ever develops into something civilised, your spiritual leaders will tell you that all those texts you so blindly follow should not be taken so literaly.

And who the hell you are to tell 2 BILLION MUSLIM around the globe about what they should take literaly and what they should not ??

Dont tell me you suddenly become self appointed expert on Islam !!! :rolleyes:

Maybe they should have them, so we can zap them away. Just like we zap away those idiots that are on now. We laugh at them. Do you understand that? Taking something lightly? Understanding that it is only crap that stupid people believe in blindly?

Thank you for confirming the fact that MUSLIMS dont go around knocking doors and broadcasting shit all the time.

There are other underdeveloped people who follow religion blindly, don't be too flattered. And yes, it pisses me of that you people pracitce your religion WHEREVER you go. It's rude and stupid.

GREAT....expect more pissing off as time goes by and as Europe fall in its ageing period....soon, Muslims will hold their EID celebrations in your city centres and guess what ? you will be standing there watching THE MUSLIM CRESCENT SHINING OVER EUROPE.

So you better be nice to Muslims now so that they will be nice to you when you get old, mind you, it is my MUSLIM kids who will run Europe in 30-50 years as statistics tell us.

We are loyal, Muslims are very loyal citizens, if they are treated well, they will give up their lives for their lands....just look at MUSLIM SPAIN, it was the Muslims who crushed the VIKINGS and burnt their ships and prevented them from ever attacking SPAIN AGAIN.

Maybe those coming from French colonies. And you are talking about the MEN aren't you? It's not just language. It is a lack of respect for the guest country.

You are the last people on earth to talk about respect!! did you respect our culture and our traditions when you colonized us for long years ????

Beside, what do you mean by respect ??? to drink Alcohol and go whoring and clubbing !!! is that what do you want Muslims to do to show 'respect ' ??

But deep down, you are waiting for the Islamic revolution. That's the problem.

You know, the land I live in now gives me so much care and support, the people that I live with are so kind and nice with me, do I wish any harm to them ?? NEVER...I will die for them, I will die for fighting for this land.

My wife is white European convert to Islam, do I wish any harm to her non muslim family ?? NEVER...they are my family, they are the uncles and the aunties of my MUSLIM childern.

Yes, I want an Islamic revolution but not in Europe, I wanted in the Islamic world, I want every Muslim country to have the NUKES so that no fucking westerner will dare to mess with us !! Muslims had enough colonial rule and now occupation ( 3 Muslim countries are now occupied by the western terrorists ) so revolution is a MUST and guess what ? IT IS COMING.

Maybe this has something to do with the crimerates among these minorities? Have numbers and statistics 'bout those?

And ever asked yourself why someone with job and secure future will ever committ a crime ????????????????

It's this stubborn holding on to medieval principles that keeps all those countries from developing. But at least have the decency to screw up your own countries.

Well Mr.Ignorant, MALAYSIA which is MUSLIM COUNTRY is one of the most advanced and rich in the world, in fact, it is one of top 15 most advanced and rich in the world.

Indonesia enjoys great prosperity and success.

DUBAI....ever heard of DUBAI in the UAE ( United Arab Emirates ) ? Dubai is a great MUSLIM success story.

Look at PAKISTAN, they produce their own nuclear submarines and their own aircrafts:

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/Support/FC1_FirstFly_007.gif
JF-17" (Joint Fighter-17) Code Name: "Thunder"Type: Single Seat Multirole Day/Night Fighter

Pakistani Ballistic Missiles

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/Nuclear&Missiles/Pakistani_Ballistic_Missiles.html

Iraqi scientists sacred the shit out of the west and that is why you went after Iraq and destroy it.

Have you read my post about Trappes in France? I'm sure all these women, suffocating in their veils will love to know this.

You are fool to think the veil is a symbol of oppression, many WHITE BLUE EYES European women who are converting to Islam in their thousands every year wear the hijab ( headscarf), after all, it is better than wearing BIKINI where women are reduced to sexual objects.

Happy with what you have? Supressing homosexuals and women, drinking in hidden places, multiple mariages to have at least SOME relief of sexual tension,... yes... good for you.

Well, at least, we supress EVIL, yes, we are proud to prevent same sex marriages( latest western amazing civilized development! )

Drinking in hidden places !! why ? sadly, in some muslim countries they allow alcohol like Syria, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco...etc but this will change soon..I promise.

Multiple Marriages !! mmmm I dont know a single Muslim man who is marrying more than one, PLUS, it is better and more HUMANE for a woman to be considered as wife than to be treated as SECERT LOVER, MISTRESS OR GIRLFRIEND where men change them as they change their chewing gum !!! at least second wife will be treated as WIFE with full legal protection, while you hedonistic animals go from one woman to anther screwing them and then changing them with no mercy or passion!!! dont you think ?

I don't drink. Did you know there were non-Muslims who don't drink?

Good for you, at least you know how evil alcohol is!! and yes, i know some westerners who dont drink..yes, not all western people are evil..I dont generalize.

Did you KNOW that capitalizing WORDS makes them SOUND more TRUE?

EXACTLY !!

I wonder why we still kicked them out? Life was going great obviously.

Because you were murderers and terrorists, after the last muslim city of granada fell, the age of European BARBARISM started with colombus butchring MILLIONS of latin Americans for jesus !!!

I didn't say that. I said that it is all about how you handle your religion. And that's where Muslims often fail.

well, statistics coming from WESTERN SOURCES say ISLAM IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION ON EARTH , Surely, this indicates that Muslims are doing very very well.......do you want some SOURCES from western outlets about this ??????

[deleted]


[deleted], you dont know even know how to distinguish between MALE AND FEMLAE POSTERS !!! :D

You are such a DESTINGUISHED MORON, you dont know even know how to distinguish between MALE AND FEMLAE POSTERS !!! :D
Hey I used to think you were female until someone pointed out to me that you were in fact male. Must have been all the whining that you are known to do. :p

And PM, for future reference, one cannot tell one's sex just by their names, some you can, but most you cannot. There is no photo of you accompanying your name to indicate that you are male. Hell, you thought I was a guy until I told you otherwise. :rolleyes:

Again a lot of bitching and whining from pm. I'm done with this ass, I'm glad I know there are more intelligent muslims out there. As for this fundamentalist, hope you leave europe soon.

And PM, for future reference, one cannot tell one's sex just by their names, some you can, but most you cannot. There is no photo of you accompanying your name to indicate that you are male. Hell, you thought I was a guy until I told you otherwise. :rolleyes:

TRUE BELLS, you behave like heavy bull !! :p

Anyway, I guess you are young beautiful lady from Australia..am I right ?

Again a lot of bitching and whining from pm. I'm done with this ass, I'm glad I know there are more intelligent muslims out there. As for this fundamentalist, hope you leave europe soon.

Sure, when you have nothing intelligent to say, you ran off !! see ya !! :D

Terrorism is like beauty, in the eyes of the beholder.

Please, don't stop posting evidence of your medieval point of view.

Your laws are joke, your laws are there just to throw sands in the eyes...you are bunch of HYPOCRITES.

I thought you didn't generalise...

Independent judges, free elections, personal freedom, equality,..... all the stuff your country is missing out on. What a shame.

Dont get me wrong, I am not generalizing all Europeans, SCANDINAVIAN countries apart from shity denmark are the most civilized of all EU memebrs.

Yes. They were the first to legalize same sex marriages. I'm glad you support these visionary countries of liberty and personal freedom.

There's also a very low Muslim population in those countries. You think there's any connection between the low Muslim rate and the level of civilisation?

On the other hand, disbelieving prove your primitive mind and your inability to see the obvious and the very clear, GOD.

Not as clear as you think. Only clear if you believe in authority. Which makes you a sheep. For sheep, everything is obvious.

And who the hell you are to tell 2 BILLION MUSLIM around the globe about what they should take literaly and what they should not ??

Ah, the argument of the greatest number. I wonder why any Germans ever opposed national socialism. After all, the majority of people were supporting it.

Seeing hell as a symbol is an example of another point of view, besides your blind religion. You can never understand that, can you? Just follow the herd.

Thank you for confirming the fact that MUSLIMS dont go around knocking doors and broadcasting shit all the time.

Why would they? They have a much more brutal manner of sticking it in your face.

GREAT....expect more pissing off as time goes by and as Europe fall in its ageing period....soon, Muslims will hold their EID celebrations in your city centres and guess what ? you will be standing there watching THE MUSLIM CRESCENT SHINING OVER EUROPE.

I bet on the bloody kick them all out revolution. We'll see.

So you better be nice to Muslims now so that they will be nice to you when you get old, mind you, it is my MUSLIM kids who will run Europe in 30-50 years as statistics tell us.

Statistics can proof anything. 90% of all people know that.

Did you understand that western joke?

We are loyal, Muslims are very loyal citizens, if they are treated well, they will give up their lives for their lands....just look at MUSLIM SPAIN, it was the Muslims who crushed the VIKINGS and burnt their ships and prevented them from ever attacking SPAIN AGAIN.

Nah, the vikings just got tired of all the victories. Besides, why would they visit Muslims? These people have the nasty habbit of visiting all the time without being invited anyway.

You are the last people on earth to talk about respect!! did you respect our culture and our traditions when you colonized us for long years ????

I would have strongly opposed colonisation if I had been already born then.

Beside, what do you mean by respect ??? to drink Alcohol and go whoring and clubbing !!! is that what do you want Muslims to do to show 'respect ' ??

To not be such annoying fanatics all the time.

You know, the land I live in now gives me so much care and support, the people that I live with are so kind and nice with me, do I wish any harm to them ?? NEVER...I will die for them, I will die for fighting for this land.

Too much support. Will end soon, trust me.

My wife is white European convert to Islam, do I wish any harm to her non muslim family ?? NEVER...they are my family, they are the uncles and the aunties of my MUSLIM childern.

What a coincidence! Did she convert before or after you met her....? Was it necessary for your old fashioned and stupid religion for her to convert? Does she leave the house a lot? Do you have 6 or 7 children? Does she go out alone with friends?

Yes, I want an Islamic revolution but not in Europe, I wanted in the Islamic world, I want every Muslim country to have the NUKES so that no fucking westerner will dare to mess with us !! Muslims had enough colonial rule and now occupation ( 3 Muslim countries are now occupied by the western terrorists ) so revolution is a MUST and guess what ? IT IS COMING.

you will be standing there watching THE MUSLIM CRESCENT SHINING OVER EUROPE.

[/B]And ever asked yourself why someone with job and secure future will ever committ a crime ????????????????

No inherent respect for property and personal freedom?

[/B]You are fool to think the veil is a symbol of oppression, many WHITE BLUE EYES European women who are converting to Islam in their thousands every year wear the hijab ( headscarf), after all, it is better than wearing BIKINI where women are reduced to sexual objects.

How about somewhere in between... Lets say walking around the street without a veil, yet fully clothed? I would dig that.

Converting... yes... not door to door, no. By marrying the women and force them to convert. By taking over neighbourhoods and shutting out non Muslims.

[/B]Well, at least, we supress EVIL, yes, we are proud to prevent same sex marriages( latest western amazing civilized development! )

1 in 5 people is homosexual. You bragging with your 2 billion Muslims... that means there are a lot of evil people among those... I always knew your religion wasn't all that great as you keep screaming. Don't drop the soap in a Muslim shower...

[/B]Drinking in hidden places !! why ? sadly, in some muslim countries they allow alcohol like Syria, Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco...etc but this will change soon..I promise.

I also hope it will change. That there will be more than 5 countries who see that oppression never works.

[/B]Multiple Marriages !! mmmm I dont know a single Muslim man who is marrying more than one, PLUS, it is better and more HUMANE for a woman to be considered as wife than to be treated as SECERT LOVER, MISTRESS OR GIRLFRIEND where men change them as they change their chewing gum !!! at least second wife will be treated as WIFE with full legal protection, while you hedonistic animals go from one woman to anther screwing them and then changing them with no mercy or passion!!! dont you think ?

Lots of Muslim men have European girlfriends. Then it is time to marry, and they dumb their girlfriend for a Muslim wife. Preferably someone they never saw before, from the home country, to import more Muslims.

Muslim men can divorce their women on the fly. Is that legal protection?

You know what offers great "protection"? A police state, in which you can't even breathe without permission. That's a bit like the Muslim marriage, isn't it?

[/B]well, statistics coming from WESTERN SOURCES say ISLAM IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION ON EARTH , Surely, this indicates that Muslims are doing very very well.......do you want some SOURCES from western outlets about this ??????

So cockroach population in Mexico, by your definition of doing well, is also on a roll?


...Keep watching the skies! I'm sure Rantisi will be doing an Israeli rocket driven flyby soon, hopefuly followed by a bunch more of those fanatic dumbwits.

Dont get me wrong, I am not generalizing all Europeans, SCANDINAVIAN countries apart from shity denmark are the most civilized of all EU memebrs.
Well why don't you leave England [deleted]


GREAT....expect more pissing off as time goes by and as Europe fall in its ageing period....soon, Muslims will hold their EID celebrations in your city centres and guess what ? you will be standing there watching THE MUSLIM CRESCENT SHINING OVER EUROPE.
And we will blast it out of the sky

So you better be nice to Muslims now so that they will be nice to you when you get old, mind you, it is my MUSLIM kids who will run Europe in 30-50 years as statistics tell us.
Statistics are just numerical lies.


We are loyal, Muslims are very loyal citizens, if they are treated well, they will give up their lives for their lands....just look at MUSLIM SPAIN, it was the Muslims who crushed the VIKINGS and burnt their ships and prevented them from ever attacking SPAIN AGAIN.
Just like you prevented the Christians entering Spain... LOL!




[size=2][b]NEVER...I will die for them, I will die for fighting for this land.
Oooh thats a good one from you. OK then, you'll not object to joining the British forces fighting against muslim countries and killing muslims..... WILL YOU.
That is what you have just said, or is this another lie of yours?


I want every Muslim country to have the NUKES so that no fucking westerner will dare to mess with us.
Muslims had enough colonial rule and now occupation so revolution is a MUST and guess what IT IS COMING.

Well com'on Ghandi, bring it on. You are [deleted]


Well Mr.Ignorant, MALAYSIA which is MUSLIM COUNTRY is one of the most advanced and rich in the world, in fact, it is one of top 15 most advanced and rich in the world.

Indonesia enjoys great prosperity and success.

DUBAI....ever heard of DUBAI in the UAE Dubai is a great MUSLIM success story.

Look at PAKISTAN, they produce their own nuclear submarines and their own aircrafts:
Well whopee dink, you never know, these countries may even become civilised one day


Iraqi scientists sacred the shit out of the west and that is why you went after Iraq and destroy it.
LOL! And what is an Iraqi scientist called = ASIF.

Because you were murderers and terrorists, after the last muslim city of granada fell, the age of European BARBARISM started with colombus butchring MILLIONS of latin Americans for jesus !!!

You [deleted], you have violent thoughts, you contradict yourself all the time, you hate the west and its people. Sometimes I wonder if you are mature enough to handle life. I believe you secretly wish you were a white westerner, and it is the green monster called jealousy making you [deleted]

You know, the land I live in now gives me so much care and support,

Too much support. Will end soon, trust me

A4Ever that is so true - It WILL end soon, very soon.

Please, don't stop posting evidence of your medieval point of view.

Sure, medieval point of view better than some stone age views !! dont you think !!

I thought you didn't generalise...
Independent judges, free elections, personal freedom, equality,..... all the stuff your country is missing out on. What a shame.

All the above is only for you, when it comes to minorities, you treat them like shit and you know it.

Yes. They were the first to legalize same sex marriages. I'm glad you support these visionary countries of liberty and personal freedom.

BULL.

There's also a very low Muslim population in those countries. You think there's any connection between the low Muslim rate and the level of civilisation?

You are very ignorant, Norway and Sweden has considerable Muslim minority, Finland has at least 50,000 Muslim out of total 5 milion....go read little bit more.

Not as clear as you think. Only clear if you believe in authority. Which makes you a sheep. For sheep, everything is obvious.

And if you dont believe in authrity you become beast, for beast, everything is barbaric.

Ah, the argument of the greatest number.

Yeah, soon third of the world will be Muslim so watch out ! :D

Seeing hell as a symbol is an example of another point of view, besides your blind religion. You can never understand that, can you? Just follow the herd.

And you just follow the back of the next girl you meet in the night club ! :rolleyes:


Why would they? They have a much more brutal manner of sticking it in your face.

prove it...

I bet on the bloody kick them all out revolution. We'll see.

yeb, wait and see dude.

Statistics can proof anything. 90% of all people know that.

Did you understand that western joke?

using your stone age logic, we can say that statistics can prove that the earth is flat !!! :D

Nah, the vikings just got tired of all the victories. Besides, why would they visit Muslims? These people have the nasty habbit of visiting all the time without being invited anyway.

You are so ignorant of history....shame really.

I would have strongly opposed colonisation if I had been already born then.

Too late, but not too late to PAY BACK.

To not be such annoying fanatics all the time.

If someone sticks to his religion does that mean he is fanatic?? are you that dumb to believe so ?

Too much support. Will end soon, trust me.

NAH...I am not talking about the English hooligans, I am not even in England.

What a coincidence! Did she convert before or after you met her....? Was it necessary for your old fashioned and stupid religion for her to convert? Does she leave the house a lot? Do you have 6 or 7 children? Does she go out alone with friends?

When I met her, she was already Muslim, she did not convert for me, she converted because she found the truth..her converstion despite her being european and white and from very very civilized northern country expell the LIE that islam is backward religion...as for the rest of your questions, they are typical ignorant sterotyping !! typical western BULL.

No inherent respect for property and personal freedom?

Tell that to your father and maybe grandfather who colonized the Muslim world.

Converting... yes... not door to door, no. By marrying the women and force them to convert. By taking over neighbourhoods and shutting out non Muslims.

You are really an absurd man !! how can taking over neighbourhoods and shuting out non muslims contribute to westerners converting to islam !!!

1 in 5 people is homosexual. You bragging with your 2 billion Muslims... that means there are a lot of evil people among those... I always knew your religion wasn't all that great as you keep screaming. Don't drop the soap in a Muslim shower...

BULL, prove that 1 in 5 is homo.......dont speak from what you see in your night club and your pub mate, dont think if you live in screwed up shit society like yours, everyone in the world is like you !!!

I also hope it will change. That there will be more than 5 countries who see that oppression never works.

we shall see.

Lots of Muslim men have European girlfriends. Then it is time to marry, and they dumb their girlfriend for a Muslim wife. Preferably someone they never saw before, from the home country, to import more Muslims.

typical liar...

Muslim men can divorce their women on the fly. Is that legal protection?

And muslim women can divorce their men on the fly, it is called FREEDOM, ever heard of this word ????????????????????

You know what offers great "protection"? A police state, in which you can't even breathe without permission. That's a bit like the Muslim marriage, isn't it?

No, it is like your current western societies nowadays where you cant leave home after darkness and where every home is equiped with burglary alarams !!!

So cockroach population in Mexico, by your definition of doing well, is also on a roll?
...Keep watching the skies! I'm sure Rantisi will be doing an Israeli rocket driven flyby soon, hopefuly followed by a bunch more of those fanatic dumbwits.

Maybe you are [deleted]....but hey, we should both keep watching the skies....dont you think ???

Since you don't seem to have anything substantial to say, I leave you with all your truth and wisdom.

Proud_Muslim:

I asked you to quote any post of mine in which I have preached about wrongs committed by Muslims. You replied with a link to a thread I started quoting an article not by me, but by somebody else.

I know that your style of posting is based on cut-and-paste, and you might well adopt the words of other people as your own, but I do not. When sciforums had signatures, the one at the bottom of my posts said "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without accepting it - Aristotle". When I quote somebody else, Proud_Muslim, it doesn't automatically mean I agree with them. In the case of the thread you linked to, I asked for thoughts on the author's opinions. I never claimed they were my opinions.

In future, I hope you will be more careful, and will think before you make unfounded accusations.

Proud_Muslim:

Terrorism is like beauty, in the eyes of the beholder.

What do you mean by that? Are you saying you think terrorism is a good thing?

Beside, what do you mean by respect ??? to drink Alcohol and go whoring and clubbing !!! is that what do you want Muslims to do to show 'respect ' ??

Your poor understanding of western culture is becoming evident again. Most westerners do not drink to excess, and by far the majority do not "go whoring and clubbing". Your stereotyping is laughable.

Yes, I want an Islamic revolution but not in Europe, I wanted in the Islamic world, I want every Muslim country to have the NUKES so that no fucking westerner will dare to mess with us !! Muslims had enough colonial rule and now occupation ( 3 Muslim countries are now occupied by the western terrorists ) so revolution is a MUST and guess what ? IT IS COMING.

You sound like bin Laden.

Well Mr.Ignorant, MALAYSIA which is MUSLIM COUNTRY is one of the most advanced and rich in the world, in fact, it is one of top 15 most advanced and rich in the world.

And, in its most recent election, only a few days ago, it overwhelmingly voted against its fundamentalist Muslim party, to keep in power a moderate government.

You are fool to think the veil is a symbol of oppression, many WHITE BLUE EYES European women who are converting to Islam in their thousands every year wear the hijab ( headscarf), after all, it is better than wearing BIKINI where women are reduced to sexual objects.

Some people think that the hijab actually reduces women to sexual objects more effectively than the bikini.

Well, at least, we supress EVIL, yes, we are proud to prevent same sex marriages( latest western amazing civilized development! )

What is evil about a same-sex marriage?

Multiple Marriages !! mmmm I dont know a single Muslim man who is marrying more than one, PLUS, it is better and more HUMANE for a woman to be considered as wife than to be treated as SECERT LOVER, MISTRESS OR GIRLFRIEND where men change them as they change their chewing gum !!! at least second wife will be treated as WIFE with full legal protection, while you hedonistic animals go from one woman to anther screwing them and then changing them with no mercy or passion!!! dont you think ?

Perhaps in the Muslim world women have no say in such things, but in western societies women have a choice about whether they want to be somebody's "secret lover, mistress or girlfriend".

well, statistics coming from WESTERN SOURCES say ISLAM IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION ON EARTH , Surely, this indicates that Muslims are doing very very well.......do you want some SOURCES from western outlets about this ??????

No, we've seen and debunked your sources before.

Oh and another note, two wrongs do sometimes make a right as has been proved many times before. The traditional explanation- a man steals a toaster from his neighbour. The owner goes to his house and steals it back. They both stole when they shouldn't have. But justice has been done and it is right.

Taking back what is rightfully yours is not wrong, so there is only one wrong in your example.

 The Bell Superstition of Muhammad

Muhammad was a very superstitious Arab. Let’s read his words fro