Insight to Crop Circles

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Spacetime, Jun 13, 2001.

  1. Spacetime Registered Member

    Messages:
    2
    Hi All,

    I'm very interested in Crop Circles, and I would like insight, or any information that you have on them.

    Me as I wrote in my essay, believe that they are maps and directions.

    I would just like to know other peoples insight on them. What do you think they are? Or what do you think they mean?

    Thanks.
     
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  3. Sethmac Registered Member

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    Crop Circles

    Crop circles are one of the most widely critizied phenomenon to date. It has been discovered that at least 30 percent of all crop circles are man made and the process is relitively simple to re-create by using a two by four and string and surveyors tape and a grasp on geometeric shapes.
    Yet I believe that the rest of them are are symbols that should have a meaning for us but have been forgotten. In example, some where on this planet there are pictures drawn on mountains that can only be seen from the sky. They date back before America was discovered, and definately before the invintion of any type of air travel.
    So your hypothisis may very well be correct... we just have to find the connection to them. I would start with math. It is the universal language.

    Sethmac
     
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  5. Sethmac Registered Member

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    sorry

    I apologize for my misspelled words I guess I am too lazy to use the spell check and I am really tired...LOL
     
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  7. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    i agree with sethmac but maybe our maths is wrong as well?
    real crop circles have the stalks bent and not broken!
    and in different layers of direction!
    and the fibres in the stalks are bent not broken!

    IF YOU SAY "LEFT" WHEN YOU NEED TO GO 'RIGHT'
    what solar system would you end up in?
    what would happend to you gravity drive?

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    groove on all
     
  8. Tony.P Registered Member

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    Any fool can spot a hoax

    Having spent many summers in Wiltshire UK and studying many formation I can say with some authority that 90% are hoaxes. I know some hoaxes myself, they are superb artists and I admire them greatly.
    Many factors must be taken into consideration when studying a crop cicle. Firstly you must remove your shoes so any boot prints can be seen and not mistaken for your own. You must be the first one there - many early 4am patrols - so no evidence has been tampered with or lost. (Just like a crime scene)
    Check for broken stalks (all genuine formations have bent and not a single broken stem). Take careful measurements as all genuine crop circles are oval and not round - try hoaxing that - One interesting factor in all genuine formation is the blown node or knuckle in the stem. It is as if some kind of microwave energy has been emited and the result is a small explosion from the inside out.These are very hard to find but do confirm a genuine formation. Always take a compass as every genuine formation effects a compass needle.
    The earliest reference to a crop circle was found in a book from 1678 which refers to the mowing devil and has a picture of the hooved Devil forming a crop circle by chopping down the corn with his scyth.
    What do I think? I believe that the goverment is testing a new microwave weapon from outerspace and using the ideal crops as a canvas ( that would also explain the black unmarked choppers seen flying over the circles.) As a small experiment try putting a sod of turf into a microwave for a short while, I await your result.
    Check my good friend Peter Sorensons web site for more info.
     
  9. Neg. Electron Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    45
    Any fool can spot a hoax
    Having spent many summers in Wiltshire UK and studying many formation I can say with some authority that 90% are hoaxes. I know some hoaxes myself, they are superb artists and I admire them greatly.
    Many factors must be taken into consideration when studying a crop cicle. Firstly you must remove your shoes so any boot prints can be seen and not mistaken for your own. You must be the first one there - many early 4am patrols - so no evidence has been tampered with or lost. (Just like a crime scene)
    Check for broken stalks (all genuine formations have bent and not a single broken stem). Take careful measurements as all genuine crop circles are oval and not round - try hoaxing that - One interesting factor in all genuine formation is the blown node or knuckle in the stem. It is as if some kind of microwave energy has been emited and the result is a small explosion from the inside out.These are very hard to find but do confirm a genuine formation. Always take a compass as every genuine formation effects a compass needle.
    The earliest reference to a crop circle was found in a book from 1678 which refers to the mowing devil and has a picture of the hooved Devil forming a crop circle by chopping down the corn with his scyth.
    What do I think? I believe that the goverment is testing a new microwave weapon from outerspace and using the ideal crops as a canvas ( that would also explain the black unmarked choppers seen flying over the circles.) As a small experiment try putting a sod of turf into a microwave for a short while, I await your result.
    Check my good friend Peter Sorensons web site for more info.
     
  10. sunbinder Registered Member

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    3
    All are indeed worthwhile thoughts & ideas.

    Perhaps the genuine circle makers use their minds (with the help of ancillary equipment) to form crop circles with. Maybe they want us to use our belief in mental abilities as a means to reply to them in a similar fashion. The Celts of past and present, in England and Ireland, could have been doing it - but just more physically - by drawing outlines of horses and people onto the hillsides. Or creating stone circles as acknowledged representations of their unworldly crafts.

    That could be all that the "visitors" may be waiting for, strictly avoiding any physical contact in order to move our consciousness towards a greater realm as a means of glimpsing an expanded form of 'physical' reality - whatever that is.

    They could be challenging us with the possibility that our minds are more than we give ourselves credit for. That perhaps we need to experience psychic phenomenon ourselves before we could understand them, and their view of reality.

    It may be that they've been pursuing this with the human race for thousands of years. That we misunderstood our subtle psychic skills as magic and sorcery. The druids. Who were they?

    Maybe we even turned the phenomenon into religion, basically never understanding what we could do. It's as though someone tried to teach us that we could mentally communicate, that there is more than what we see - here - and all we could do in response was imitate. Clasping our hands together to pray in fear.

    A kind of human dilemma in thinking. No?

    Could it be that we're just starting to get a glimpse of things as they really may be? The publicity of near-death-experiences, remote viewing, crop circles.. our intuition, etc.

    Maybe that's why circles and pictographs came into being. It could force us to think along those lines. To change our ideas. To open our minds to the possibility. That there could be more.

    Again.. all these may be just thoughts & ideas. But are they real?

    - sunbinder -

    (Then again, maybe it's just the young ones flying the crafts - that are just teasing us with alien graffiti.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2001
  11. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762
    yo sunbinder

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    great ideas. .

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    have a 3 eyed smileyface.
    @@@
    u
    \___/

    groove on

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  12. piffi Nixed Price Rack Registered Senior Member

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    comeon

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    besides the fact that there IS a human explanation for every single incidence, we also find that the very FIRST ever reported was clearly revealed to be a hoax. Now honestly, what are the chances of an alien race creating an identical phenomenon to one that had already been created by a bunch of drunken men? also, if aliens really had a unique, individual interest in our planet for resources or (?breeding?) why would they be so stupid to just land and not do anything else or have people see them? Cant they just moniter us from earth orbit? actually they cant be since we dont pick up their ships on our radar. And if you say they are invisible, psychic, remotely viewing us, or using spiritual methods to prevent evidence from being collected, u are making things up to try to give a basis for a totally groundless debate.

    thanx
     
  13. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,762
    hey all
    LOL
    piffi or just plain piffil?
    so why exactly are you posting on this thread?

    wasnt lee harvey oswald on the grassy knoll ?

    maybe we cant actualy go faster than the speed of sound?
    maybe its all a big hoax aswell?

    aswell as the moon landing and all those space schuttle missions?

    next your going to tell me the world is flat because YOU havnt seen it as a ball!

    most people have problems believing things they cant see or touch
    but all that is throwen out the window when it comes going to the doctor or going to church!

    do you blindly believe in either of these?
    THINK further on the topic-

    groove on all

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  14. piffi Nixed Price Rack Registered Senior Member

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    oops..

    sorry to anybody I offeneded by writing a logical, unbiased, reply to a topic I find interesting.

    It's not a bad thing to be a skeptic. being a skeptic means you actually want to see all the facts before you make a descion. Scientists are skeptics. that is the core principle of science. And science, my friend, is the only way to find truth. Reality doesn't lie in assupmtions.

    does anybody remember the movie Contact (1997)? I bet a lot of you believed Jodie Foster actually went into space. I sure did-for a long time. then I re-watched the movie, picked up some subtle clues. The movie made a much stronger point than just how a meeting with aliens could affect someone. It made a point on human nature, religion and science, and pseudoscience. the machine was a hoax that made the traveller believe they were going somewhere. Jodie, being a woman of science and extreme skeptic, found her own beliefs being challenged by an experience. However, just because she experienced it doesn't mean it happened. LSD, anyone?

    However, i digress. the point in being a skeptic is to open your mind and let all sides of the arguement come in, not to open it so much that you'll believe anything. Good desicion making comes from weighing the facts, making assumptions, then testing your assumptions to see which one is the most logical. When deciding whether or not crop circles exist, I listened to people who claimed they were real. The fact that I don't believe them is that what they were saying didn't make sense and didn't coincide with basic knowlege. they also seemed to have psychological underpinnings. i didn't shun them from the beginning.

    I urge you, rippleofdeath, to open your mind for once. It sure seems to me that by only examining one side of the arguement and shunning me, from the beginning, is not helping to make an unbiased, fair answer to this problem. I could be wrong. Crop circles could be real. I'm just keeping my mind open!
     
  15. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    2,762
    hey all
    yo piffi

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    im glad to hear you have an open mind!

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    my point of reaction dwells from a belief that there are too many non believers and de-bunkers trying to ridicule the people reporting these events and ostricising those who investigate them.

    note my words-think further on the topic!=look at some pages on the topic and do some further reading-note 2 major differences!=
    real crop circles have the fibres of the stalks bent and hoaxes have them broken!
    and some correlate to earths magnetic lines!


    groove on all

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  16. pragmathen 0001 1111 Registered Senior Member

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    As a reply ...

    First, welcome to Sciforums, piffi!

    Glad to see you follow rules of reason, logic, and hopefully unbiased processes. That came out a little robotic, eh?

    Anyway. I have read <i>Contact</i> by Carl Sagan, as well as watched the movie (perhaps more than is legally permitted) several times. But ...

    There is that last part of the movie where the Congressman is speaking via laptop to the President's Aide and she mentions something interesting about what Arroway's recorder recorded. Yes, it was static-snow. But it was eighteen-hours of snow.

    Naturally, this doesn't in itself testify that aliens are real and are creating mathematically correct crop circles in our backyards. But it does hint at the possibility that said crop circles are being perpetrated by high-order mathematicians, hoax or not. Crop circles cannot necessarily be arbitrarily dismissed as sleight of hand or because a couple guys knockin back forties see that making circles in the crops sounds like a good thing to do. As with everything paranormal, there will be kooks as well as kernels. The fact that most crop circles nowadays are becoming increasingly more difficult, with built-in mathematical equations, which should be of some interest.

    What better way to communicate with Earth than through a means that most consider hoax-bound? If the circles were simple ovals or basic geometric shapes, yeah perhaps they were ALL fake. But, to be steadily progressing ... Kind of implies something else.

    Admittedly, like you in one respect, I will await further research and data concerning the circles before I jump on the bandwagon.

    Ever read <i>Nemesis</i> by Asimov? In it, a certain set of scientists provided information on astronomical observations for nearly every quadrant of the sky. But one. The scientists that received this data ignored the other data and looked intently in this one direction. They found some answers.

    The point of that is to show that, whether it be religions, paranormal events, or just plain Loch Ness, I try to look in areas that have <i>not</i> been mentioned. And, yes, a lot of the cro cirlces are fakes. But not all can be duplicated in the same amount of time. Though this information does not necessarily imply aliens, it does imply someone with quite the higher order of intelligence and means. So, aliens or the government (synonymous in some posters' minds), the fact is that someone out there is perpetrating elaborate, higher-ordered, seemingly pointless acts or hoaxes. Whatever the reason (or subject), it should be studied a bit further before throwing a blanket response over the entire thing.

    But, hey, piffi, this was not intended as a remonstration by any degree. Just a very roundabout way of saying that I agree skepticism is a great attribute to hold onto as well.

    thanks,

    prag
     
  17. sunbinder Registered Member

    Messages:
    3
    "Besides the fact that there is a human explanation for every single incidence."


    How have you come to believe that every single crop circle created is actually a human made formation? I would say that that’s kind of a decisive statement. Personally, my curiosity ensures I don’t come to such a conclusion too quickly. The opposite being true also.

    What about looking at the geometry and the manner in which some of these crop circles may have been constructed? Most of the crop circles appear to have curved structures within which their centers of radii exist outside the circles themselves. I find this intriguing, as it places their centers into pristine crop that do not coincide with any foot prints or tram lines.

    Most also have been known to appear overnight or within a window of several hours.

    In general, their overall placements are usually asymmetrical to any tram lines and have no relationship to them. In my view, this would make some patterns very difficult to construct using a plank and string. In fact, it would be outright impossible to do the huge ones within one night.

    The other interesting point is that they appear in numbers and locations where no one stakes claim to them. Some are in hard to reach areas. I know this, because I’ve been to England’s countryside and have seen some of these formations. They are amazing. Like something huge stamped into the hillside.

    When people do stake a claim to having formed one, they don’t provide any proof for their claims. That’s disturbing. It says something about our propensity towards deception. Some people have even attempted to construct complex formations, and I applaud them. Apparently, they come out bewildered at the massively complex ones. Some of these people have apparently thrown up their hands and genuinely now think that there’s something odd going on.

    Have you seen any of the stalks within any of the crop circles? It is as some have described it to be. That’s fascinating also. The stalks are actually bent! In some cases, they bend sharply at nodes along the stalk. These nodes look like they have been heated quickly and had actually popped open, forcing the stalk to bend in the opposite direction.

    How would one explain the burnt nodes? The bent stalks? I can’t. And I’m and engineer. The best I’ve come with is the possibility of exposure to high energy microwaves. That could superheat the air in the nodes and pop them. But then another problem arises. How would one control the microwaves such as to have only one side of an array of stems bend in a predetermined direction, in the same direction?

    There’s also the peculiar weave and swirling ‘signatures’ I associate with original formations. In some cases, at the center of a swirl, a handful of stalk remain standing. Unaffected. What would be the purpose of that? Why would anybody care to leave five to ten strand still standing, consistently in various formations?

    Those are the kind of questions I ask myself. I’ve asked others, but have taken a lot of time before jumping to any conclusions. And still, the alien hypothesis can’t be discounted. Occam’s razor will not be an excuse for me to turn away from the questions and the details. I really wanted to know what was going on.

    I have asked many questions over the years.

    One that has nagged me is: Why is it that we “believe” everything has to be proven physically? Where does this belief stem from? A scientific method that predates Newton? What about EPR and Bell’s Theorem? What do they imply about the non-local nature of matter? How is it that this has not caused a tremendous stir in science? Could it be that we simply got things a little backwards and never asked why? Could the Copenhagen interpretation be a misinterpretation? Rather than having the observer be part of the experiment, could the observer’s observation effect the outcome of the experiment? Would that not be psychokinetic? Spookiness’ at a distance? What’s wrong with accepting that?

    And so if we need physical proof, then how has it come to be that we do not continue to seek physical proof for phenomenon we can barely measure in the lab? Could it be that we simply do not have the instrumentation that can measure beyond our ‘model’ of matter based on the ‘electron’, at this time? Is not our technology, or specifically, “electronics” our only saving grace? Providing us with a temporary and shaky sense of understanding of structures that are limited only to electro-chemical boundaries? Safely keeping us within Newtonian causality?

    Does our need for proof only stem from a safe, but fragile, Victorian air of reality and common sense? Is that all?



    "We also find that the very FIRST ever reported was clearly revealed to be a hoax."


    Really? How many hundreds of years ago was that?

    Certainly, today, many people have shown to be able to construct some reasonably complex circle-based patterns, but I have not seen anyone able to create curvatures and structures with the precision of some of the most complex crop circles while providing reliable proof in the form of un-doctored video tapes from various simultaneous vantage points. Even if one would use military precision GPS equipment, the resolution of the swirls and curves, along with their placement, far exceeds it’s accuracy of a meter.

    To date, the most complex formations built still require us to access the farmer’s fields using tram lines. We can create a moderately complex structure out of circles but they have to be multiples or sub-multiples of the distance between tram lines. The standards used in some of the more ‘genuine’ formations appear to be higher than what we can practically implement.

    Does this not make you wonder what can really be going on? Should not one be asking such questions in one’s search for scientific answers? I care & I’m fascinated.



    "Now honestly, what are the chances of an alien race creating an identical phenomenon to one that had already been created by a bunch of drunken men?"


    Perhaps it’s the other way around.

    What are the chances a bunch of drunken men would be imitating the original formation makers? Would not those probabilities be higher? Again, Occam’s razor would have you go for the simplest explanation, but at what cost?

    As for an alien race, what proof have you that there are no alien races living within, say, 5 lys vicinity, that are more advanced than us? Where is it that one would gain such confidence - in light of our own living, breathing and thinking existence on this planet - that aliens don’t exist, or that they may certainly not be more advanced technologically than us? That perhaps they may have even abandoned the electromagnetic medium for a more practical quantum phenomenon?

    Or for that matter, then can you explain why gravity exists? Or how to manipulate it? I certainly can’t. Has someone shown you definitive proof of the fact that aliens may not be visiting this planet? If so, where is it? Even Carl Sagan believed in life existing out there. Unfortunately, I feel he got lost in negativism and believed that the only way to have interplanetary communication would be through the use of EM waves (which may simply be a side product of a deeper non-local process).

    And of course, there is the assertion that nothing can travel faster than light. But.. what about Bell’s experiment? The known fact that matter is indeed non-local? Who’s’ asking about those things? Have we explained them away? That’s astonishing! Scientists have literally seen and played with non-local behavior in the lab and no one knows about it’s implications? Where’s the spirit of investigation? What happened to the scientific mind and curiosity?



    "Also, if aliens really had a unique, individual interest in our planet for resources or (?breeding?) why would they be so stupid to just land and not do anything else or have people see them?"


    Why would any intelligent race want to limit their interests to our fears?

    Maybe they truly have come ashore and we just didn’t recognize them or their operations, after all, we don’t even recognize the rights of animals and other living creatures on this planet.

    What would be our reaction to seeing them? Would we be able to communicate? What would we use? Words? How would we be able to interface with a race whose minds may have ten times the neural connections our minds have? How would such a race be able to express their ideas without our misunderstanding them? And what happens if they’re just plants? After all, we can’t even understand or communicate effectively with any of the earth’s living creatures without raising their fears. We impose our wills but we are unable to share in their thoughts.

    Don’t you use your mind and ask such questions? Why not? Where should you draw the line? Where is it safe and where is it not? Should one only stay within familiar areas? Where does your comfort zone extend to? Why?



    "Can’t they just monitor us from earth orbit?"


    Yes. But would they necessarily have to achieve orbit if they have mastered gravitation? Think about it.

    If thought communications exists deep within matter (not at a chemical level), then they could monitor us without being anywhere near our planet. They would hear our very thoughts. We would likely come across as being thoughtless and crude. Very noisy indeed.



    "Actually they can’t be since we don’t pick up their ships on our radar. "


    What is radar? Is radar the only means? Besides, radar only works well if you point it in the right direction. And how would we be able to discern between orbital junk and an alien craft? Do you think a people that may have mastered space travel would find it hard to avoid detection from our technology? And if we did spot the location of one of their ships, what would we do with this information? What is our current protocol in such situations? Shoot, then investigate? Keep it a secret? Tell everyone? Would it prove anything? Would our healthy skepticism far exceed our needed curiosity? And why have we learnt to be so skeptical in the first place? Could it be a result of the human condition? Greed? Lack of honesty? Lack of truth?



    "And if you say they are invisible, psychic, remotely viewing us, or using spiritual methods to prevent evidence from being collected, .."


    That was a reasonable observation of the few words I typed up. I didn’t quite say that they would be using their PSI abilities to prevent evidence from being collected. They may simply be providing evidence to us, but not in the form we would like it to be. They may simply want us to pursue the evidence, presented in a format we are not familiar with, simply to move us toward to possibility that new formats are real and they do exist. And that may simply be for the purpose of teaching us or preparing us to communicate with them by other means. Means that do not require proof like we are used to, means that may require experiential learning.

    What I am saying is that if an advanced race is in fact interacting with us, the communication barrier would be great because of our limited understanding of matter, how our minds are wired up and our poor track record of effective communication. (Recall the animals of the earth & the disruptive military approach between nations.)

    The only way “they” would be able to prove anything for us is if we find it out for ourselves. In other words, we have to get to the point where we can "see" them first before they can effectively communicate back to us. Everything else would likely fail, as it probably has over the last ten thousand years (since the last ice age).



    ".. are making things up to try to give a basis for a totally groundless debate."


    If it’s groundless, then I guess I would have a complete understanding of matter and of the mysteries in life. Such a life would be very simple and somewhat unchallenging.

    Differing opinions are the spice of life and the spark of creativity.

    Personally I think we are being challenged to think beyond the boundaries set by our scientists. That we have to. How else would we advance further? And we have to use our minds to explore physics beyond our use of limited instrumentation. Maybe we should use our minds' ability to “see”, to "view" structures within matter, instead of using recreational drugs and loosing our minds.

    Maybe everything is physical, even the “metaphysics” we can’t touch or measure.

    Maybe our minds are a quantum machine.

    As for making things up - I think it’s called using my mind the best I can. And if thinking is unreal, what would then be the point of it?

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    Most importantly, though, wouldn’t one have to retain a sense of humor? Perhaps that’s what the circle makers want us to learn first when looking at their circles, be they human or truly alien in origin.

    Gotta put on a 3-eyed smileyface.. and think purple for goodness sakes!

    - sunbinder –
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2001
  18. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    ALL HEIL yee... to sunbinder
    the master of discriptive reason!

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    sunbinder are you realy human?
    i contest that becuse you sound to reasonable

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    i like your point on proof

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    we already have UFO sightings on radar!

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    LOL
    you can slap a person in the face with a fish and they will still ask you if you have any food!

    groove on al

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  19. piffi Nixed Price Rack Registered Senior Member

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    Final Word

    Just a final word on this exhausting topic..

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    Personally, I do not think being a skeptic limits my ability to think and reason. The whole point of being a skeptic is to expand your horizons. To focus on the fact that skepticism debunks your own closely held beliefs is being hypocritical as well as naive. Science debunks itself all the time.

    Throughout history, skeptic inquiry has been used to solve problems. By looking at all sides of the problem, we can determine an answer.

    I think that many people dislike skeptics because they take the fun out of life, but we don't! There's a boundary. You can believe in what you want to a point, but sooner or later, it just becomes unreasonable.

    I firmly belive that somewhere in our galaxy, aliens exist. It also seems quite logical that they could be living somewhere in our vicinty, like Alpha Proxima or its two sister stars. That makes a lot of sense. Also, I belive that a sattelite such as Titan or Europa could easily support life, because of the presense of organic compounds and the composition of the atmosphere. Extraterrestial life is certainly within reason, and the day we make contact with that life would be mankind's greatest day. but by the evidence, that day has not come yet.


    Hold on Children of the earth, for some day we will truly connect with our cousins in space. When it happens, it will most likely be more grandiose than a circle in the corn or a dream-like account of ET rape. that day will affirm everything we know to be human.
     

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