Once upon a time, the father of my current partner and mother of my child sent me a book about the Soviet Union, the US, the Pope, and a Satanic conspiracy to end the world. It was called Keys of This Blood, by Malachi Martin. Perhaps if I'd come across the book while there was still a Soviet Union to consider, I would have taken it more seriously. But it was an awful book. Well he's in town, attending to the expected expansion of the family, and Tig is keeping me separated from that process (fair enough). However, she was trying to explain something to her father about the baby's future, and religion was part of the stake. So he made her an offer to convey to me. He will abandon his faith (SDA) and give me $1,000 if I can prove that the Christian sabbath is appropriately not Saturday. I'm hoping desperately that the terms of the issue have been conveyed to me incorrectly. On the one hand, such is an expected result when Tig tells me these things. To the other is the fact that I don't contest the Sabbatarian aspect of Seventh-Day Adventism; even the witches' sabbat is Saturday. But what does that really have to do with anything? What I'm actually preparing for in these terms will be attempts to baptize my child into Christianity. I could care less what day one goes to church; I think the whole thing is detrimental. But this is a common thing to me. I would ask the questions as such: • Why is it that Christians will stake faith on irrelevant issues? (e.g. the day of the Sabbath is among the least important considerations.) • Would an evangelical Christian accept it if I initiated their child into witchcraft against their will? • Would an evangelical Christian feel secure if I targeted their child for conversion and initiation into a different religion? But I'm insulted. What in heaven's name could make that man think the Sabbath is an issue? Is this really where his head is at? And it's stuff like this that makes me worry even more about his religion: What is the relationship between the religious paradigm and the immediate perspective? And as I look out to the future, and envision my daughter's future life, it makes me wish there was definitively something to pray to that she won't be so wrongly and obsessively focused. But in the meantime, the stake is too high to fritter my efforts away on supplication. I mean, these people are planning to move five-hundred miles north of their current home in order to attend to this child. I applaud their devotion but question their intent. Tig doesn't trust them any farther than she can throw them (maybe a foot and a half), but it's hard to tell how much of that is paranoia. But for all they want to do for their daughter and granddaughter--and, by proxy, me--I will not permit them this degree of interference. Quite literally, a man is allegedly preparing to undertake a process that he would not, as a parent, have accepted of anyone. I find that interesting. But he's going to have to answer for that at some point, and sack issues of the Sabbath. But I find his invitation to a snipe-hunt somewhat ridiculous and insulting. And, having vented, I'll leave it at that for now. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Sunday = first day of week, for the greatest celestial object, and because it stemmed from Mesopotamia where there happened to be a great many sun gods. However, that doesn't make Saturn's day the last day of teh week. Why? Well, some of those using Sunday as the first, way back when, had weeks of ten days. Various forms were tried over the years. Now, however, having kept the Babylonian Sunday as the first and adopted a seven day week, Saturday is the final day. Am I really interested? Vaguely. Well, at one time I was, and contacted a chap at the Royal Society for as much info as he could give me. At the time I was curious because a friend had become a mormon and I was wondering about his Saturday-sabbath thing.
tiassa, I dont give much thought of the sabbat, BUT, I can definetly identify with you about your situation. I have a two year old, and her grandparents on her mother's side are Catholic. My grandparents are Penicostal. I have had one heck of a time keeping them at bay with their religous views. They just cant grasp the concept, when I tell them that I dont want her (my girl) to be forced into a religon, and that I want her to make her own decisions. They act as if Im commiting a terrible crime, or condeming her to be a witch. I have made some realy bad mojo between them and I. All becouse of their stupid up-bringing. I just wanted to let you know that I identify with you, and if you can come up with any idea's on how to solve this problem, please let me know. Thanks.
Shoot them all. And let it be the beggining of a glorious bloodbath to rid the world of all religious fanatics. Do it in the name of our children. Sacrifice today for a brighter tommorow.
Angelus, Thats a great Idea, but unfortunatly I would have to suffer the consiquinces. I dont partucularly like the thought of prison. But, its a nice idea you have. I do wish I could rid the world of all these fanatics.
Well, in responce to the original question, it doesnt matter what day its on so long as its observed. The Sabbath day is meant to give people a rest and a chance to focus on God so it doesnt matter if its on Monday or Thursday, it just matters if it is observed. In responce to the religious fanatics being shot, I dont appreciate that as I could be considered a religious fanatic (we use the term 'hardcore' here). However I think the grandparents are acting like idiots and tha the mother is right, the child should be allowed to come to their own conclusions. I suggest providing him/her with information on both the catholic and pentacostaly religions as well as many others so that the grandparents are at least mollified and the child gets more info! good luck with that!
Truthseeker, I totally agree with you! God should be the focus of everyday, and every hour, I was simply pointing out that the formal Sabbath day didnt really have to be on a particular day. btw, thank you for backing me up in a couple of other threads!
Sure... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I like helping Christians that are new in sciforums... It's not easy to live with persecution... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Wheeze of the morning While I understand your sentiments in the Sciforums context, I must say that this, more than bowling green, made my morning. But didn't Jesus say that kind of feeling was stock and standard? Of course, it's kinda tough, I suppose, to be humble while being proud of your endurance of persecution. For the record, the Seattle winter chased the maternal grandparents back to California, which is fine with me. But I'll tell you, the weekly calls asking Tig if she feels safe leaving me alone with the baby are getting ... very tiresome. I always wonder why Gran'pa J just won't say it to me .... Note to Adam: I have somewhere in the house a book called Answers to Objections. It's a statement of Seventh-Day Adventist doctrines in the form of a Sabbatarian answering Sunday-worshipping, Catholic-influenced Christians. In other words, it's generally useless to someone outside the sectarian rhetoric unless they can sympathize with familiar assertions (e.g. the basis of the "objections"). But it turns out that the SDA's actually wrote the Royal Society astronomers and, in this particular volume I have, included a photostat of the actual letter they received from the RS confirming that they had no record of a reassignation of the days of the week since Biblical times. (I tell you, the SDA's are really hung up on this Sabbatarian thing; they honestly think the UN or some other body is going to persecute and attempt to exterminate Sabbatarians. Interacting with Gran'pa J has only reinforced what I had hitherto held to be one of my silly paranoias about people.) A general recommendation that is worth a hoot: Apparently, many SDA's believe in the future institution of a "National Sunday Law" in the United States which will render Sabbatarianism "illegal". See Sunday Law Countdown and National Sunday Law ... fact or fiction? if you want some savage amusement. This is exactly the kind of thinking I'm lamenting in Gran'pa J. Seriously ... there are people who believe it. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Someone I know spontaneously became a SDA a few months back, and I was asking him about his new religion. He explained about his Saturday sabbath thing, and I said "Wow, looks like I have something in common with religion after all, since I do ####-all on Saturdays too!"
I've always wondered about being humble and proud of being persecuted at the same time, till it was explained just yesterday to me by my youth pastor! (I dont think I quite have it yet, but this is what I've understood so far) He says that you are not proud that you are being persecuted and you're strong enough to take it, you're to be proud that Jesus is strong enough to take it and gives this strength to you! Therefore you're still being humble to God (saying that you arent the strong one, He is) AND being proud about surviving thru the persecution (you just didnt do it). Like I said, I'm not sure I quite have the concept yet!
i c, actually accepting it never really occured to me! I always just try to defuse the situation and avoid it in the future if possible (luckily I"m in a place where I can do that, unlike some missionaries in china I know!)
I think there is promise that we can defend ourselves against persecution and even stop it. I have a scripture about it somewhere in my Bible Study notes... I'll try to find it...
Example, not rhetoric? Are not Christians supposed to lead by example and not rhetoric? In much rhetoric I find the hypocrisy Jesus condemns in praying loudly on the streetcorner. This may be stylistic, though. But in demonstration ... that is something else. To turn the other cheek, as such, is to show that the situation is not worth mucking around in the mire. Many people of diverse faiths lament the symptoms of society, but never seek to rise above them. It seems to me more worthwhile to set an example with one's Christianity, as the soon to be Santa Teresa of Calcutta attempted to do, despite what specific objections we might have with her methods. To the other, the voluminous rhetoric of your average TBN snake-oil salesman accomplishes little but the perpetuation of the festering symptoms of superstition and ill-breeding. The endurance of persecution is ridiculously unfair, but it seems to come with the territory. It's one of the reasons I paraphrase Bill Maher: "I would probably be a Christian if only they would first." The rhetoric is nice. It's solid. The myth is a little shaky. But the exemplary demonstration of the effectiveness of the Christian system is lacking. Too often consciences have elected to fight fire with fire, and while I am of a paradigm that does not rule it out, it does seem that Christians are to turn the other cheek, to love their enemy, and so forth. As I recall, it's in the Bible. Thus, in terms of demonstration--is the persecution truly persecution or specific reaction to conduct? There have been times that I have not been able to inform someone that they've missed the point without being called fascist. So my tantrums serve as an interesting example: certes, I have a harsh tongue, but I tend to think I know when I'm right and also when I'm pushing it, as well as when I'm somewhere out in left field. Sometimes it really is just my mood that inspires a specific interpretation, or perhaps sobriety that lends the angry tinge to it. And sometimes I'm legitimately that furious. But I proclaim no doctrinal adherence to a system which commands me specifically to turn the other cheek and to love my enemy. While I find compassion and tolerance to be excellent tools, I have not chosen to mandate such conditions unto myself via the vehicle of an adopted religion. So it's an interesting question, but why is one being persecuted? The OCA, for instance, felt persecuted when people called them hateful because they felt that the Bible should be law in Oregon with the result that as much as 10% of the population would be disenfranchised and ostracized. Was it really persecutory to call the suspension of human dignity hateful? Is it really persecutory to call Muscleman's diatribes ridiculous or even worse? And some of that hostility does spill over onto more legitimate interpretations of the faith, but this is part of the Christian responsibility to other Christians: whatsoever you do not do for the least of His ... and to leave those misguided Christians lost and wandering and hungry for a surrogate seems to be problematic in two senses. First, you can correct your misguided brethren in faith, thus reinforcing your own faith and the collective as well, and also you can eliminate the source of the frustration that moves people to behavior that you may or may not find persecutory, and at least untoward. Think of the missionary aspect: A Christian walks into a place, tells the people they're wrong, and offers a new alternative. To not expect resistance is foolishness. Likewise, in a diverse community, to not expect varying degrees of backlash even in terms of a generalization staining the broader label (e.g. Christianity) seems myopic at best. Put simply: Part of what God has put before you is the task of figuring out how to communicate through the cacophony, how to quell the din, and how to bring willful, listening hearts to Jesus Christ. Figuring out how to make them willful, listening hearts is part of the problem that rarely gets addressed. But if you have a better way to sell, you should at least be prepared for the ... uh ... inferiority ... of your market. (A note on that last: The inferiority of the market is long-recognized in Christianity. However, as the hideous crimes of Christians past indicate, compassion toward those perceived inferior was lacking vastly. It should be well-considered whether or not the experiment should be carried out under a condition where compassion is present. It's been really quite hard for people to figure out, though stated in those terms it seems like it should be easy. Of course, that sense of ease is the entire difference between rhetoric and example.) thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Big essay, as usual... tiassa, I tend to agree that there is infereiority in the market. But there is also pretty good people out there. In India, for example, there are many Christians that brings improvements and make miracles to bring people to God. Their actions are their preaching. They preach with actions. They just don't teach Love, they put It into action. They show God's Love. They are becoming more and more common nowdays, but we are still lacking many of them (mostly in countries that don't need much help...). "Christians" did pretty wrong things in the past. However, anywhere in the Bible encourages them to do so. They did so completly out of ignorance. I tried many religions too. And also Philosophies. However, what really impresses me in Christianism is how we talk about Love. When you become a Christian and start growing, you learn a lot about Love and you are very encouraged to Love people. Christians give lots of power to Love, and that's what I like most. It is true, Love is very powerfull. It is not easy to be a Christian. In the early times you have to pass through many trials which defines wheter you will be the least or the greatest in the kingdom. It is not a very easy job. Even I am still learning, eventhough I talk with God since about 3 years old... We will get better... Wait until I get out there... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
