View Full Version : Innocence


guthrie
11-01-03, 12:35 PM
This was sparked by consideration of Heinleins characters. Alexei Panshin pointed out here:
http://www.enter.net/~torve/critics/Heinleinsex/sexintro.htm

Roughly speaking, Panshin says that Heinleins main characters are too innocent, and proceeds to various other deductions about heinlein and his writing. The characters insist upon marriage, are ignorant of the most basic functions of handmaidens, and are more like caricatures of victorian innocence than real life tough spacers or soldiers. its was something that had always bugged me about Heinlein, but Panshin put it into words for me. Now, I intend to segue this into a rambnle about innocence in general in sci-fi books. for example, where would we be without the innocent character to whome things have to be explained, and who experiences the extraordinary world in the storys for the first time. Well, we would be less well informed for starters. Actually, nowadays, the innocent character is more likely I think to be a half wit, or someone whose somehow very different, i'm thinking of RAT Korba in Delaneys "stars in my pocket like grains of sand". There is no room for an innocent character any more, in our technological wonderlands of massive information banks and computers. Although some writers have portrayed somewhat innocent characters, take manuel in Gregory Benfords "Against Infinity". His innocence is based upon simply being 13 years old at the start of the book, and benford does a good job of protraying this, better than most authors. At the opposite is iain M Banks, whose books have no trace of innocence that i have found yet, but plenty of cynicism.

Then theres innocence of the reader. We can to some extent assume that the earlier scifi readers were more innocent than people today. So stories like Heinleins etc were written in order not to shock them too much, nto rock the boat. Which to some extent is doing them a disservice, in my opinion good sci-fi has to be more provocative than normal fiction. But then heinlein wrote "stranger in a strange land" a book apparently intended to cause a ruckus. In this he succeeded, yet looking back at it now, as modern reader, I find hte book to be entertaining, but not ulitmately provocative. My hypothesis is that it is due ot the oss of innocence of the reader. Now, we know about sex, homosexuality, various religions, etc, and these books, like the new wave writings, are just not provocative and pointed like they once were. In one sense that is the are sci-fi is stuck in nowadays, with knowing characters and all the darker side of human experience laid bare, noir thrillers and cybersex, megadeaths and planetary destruction. So my challenge to you readers is suggest some works which are still innocent in some way or another, or rip away your own innocence. Or better still, write one yourself.

CounslerCoffee
11-01-03, 02:16 PM
I have to agree. Heinlein's books were shocking in his time, not ours. As humanity learns to accept certain aspects of society (Homosexuality), it looses its shock value. Hence the books were revolutionary in their time, but no longer in ours.

Nowadays we have our Captain Picards that blow up crap all the time, or the books on Honor Harrington, in which a really bad ass space Captain goes around the universe and kills people. These books are loosing their shock value because we see it so much already.

Gifted
11-02-03, 02:28 PM
I was originally intending to start my story in the present day, the main character is involved with things like discovering hyperwarp drive systems and such, and he wouldn't so much not know about something, as describe it as he sees it, say, thinking that the aliens' guns look like AK-47s with wierd grips. This lets you see what he's talking about, but lets me get on with the story without some big monologue. You'd also have to read the first book, since I'm not planning on making the series s oyou can start in the middle and not miss anything.

Hienlien wrote for the 1960s, not today. You think sci-fiing "Left Behind" or something of that sort would be interesting? Using Mormon theology?

guthrie
11-02-03, 02:54 PM
I'm afraid I regard using sci-fi and left behind in the same sentence as criminal. Actually gifted, are you sure you didnt mean to post that on the storys thread?

"Hienlien wrote for the 1960s, not today."

Yes, but at the same time, as Panshin and others say, hes not quite as revolutionary as he liked to make out, perhaps you could say he was playing to the market, but I have some books from that period that are far more dangerous. Theodore sturgeon comes to mind. I seem to recall reading Brian Aldis's verdict on Heinleins "Starship troopers" and he was essentially wondering what all the fuss was about.

Gifted
11-03-03, 05:59 AM
I was refering to Left Behind as an "end of days" story reference. My idea was the second coming etc., with a sci-fi twist. I'm going to get a lot of crap from athiests and fundamentalist Christians.

guthrie
11-03-03, 04:25 PM
Ahh, thats ok then. If you were trying to posit left behind as scifi i was prepared to rip your head off. But end of humanity, its been done before, blah blah. Although less so from a religious perspective, which is indeed where it gets interesting, and dangerous. Do you live anywhere near Utah? Whats so special about the mormon end of the world scenario?

Gifted
11-16-03, 03:53 PM
You know anything about our theology? That in itself will be interesting, the Book of Mormon and such include some extra stuff about the end of the world, and then there are still other lost scriptures out there. There's a joke in which Jesus calls the Pope, and tells him there's good news and bad news. "The good news is the Second coming's happened." The Pope says, "That's great! What's the bad news?" Jesus responds, "I'm calling from Salt Lake City." Not to rip on Catholics or anything.

I was also going to twist it by making it multi-pantheonic(or whatever the word would be). Basically, you have the Christians doign there end of the world thing, the Muslims, Buhddists, and a ffew others in the mix. Not sure how exactly it's going to work yet, but it will be fun.

guthrie
11-16-03, 04:52 PM
"our theology"? YOU mean mormonism, right? I know very little. I'm agnostic, one religion looks pretty much like another.

So do you want everyone having their end of world at the same itme, and all their gods reappear, and talk to their believers? And what happens to the atheists? if its gone all pantheistic, then non believers will have a hard itme of it.

As much interesting to me is, have you read the links to Panshins website? it has lots of interesting stuff.