Many years ago when pondering the infinite I developed a not so original idea that to achieve a finite state in a sea of infinity a duality of infinite actions must exist.

A grain of sand exists as finite because of these opposing infinite forces.

The premise of all my physics understandings has been based on this fundamental. That everything is infinite but achieves a finite state because of the polarisations with in the infinite.

Since reading this forum for some time I have become aware that physics and math have some concern about handling the infinite.

I take the stance that the infinite has to be considered in all equations. The reason being that if something came from nothing and nothing is infinite then infinite forces etc are at play to create and maintain the finite.

I ask whether my approach to the infinitely finite is flawed and whether some one would be kind enough to explain why this is so?

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
I take the stance that the infinite has to be considered in all equations. The reason being that if something came from nothing and nothing is infinite then infinite forces etc are at play to create and maintain the finite.How would one 'consider the infinite' in the equation 2+2=4? What benefit would this consideration offer?

I would ask the question what are you counting?
two of what ?

Sure in a construct that allows two finites to be added you get a finite result, this is only a construct. But if you are adding something that exists that is physical then you are adding up four infinite objects.

1000078 + (-)1000076 = +2 ( out of balance by +2)

12 + (-)12 = 0 or should I say moo or balance.

Each figure above implies the infinite.


May be in an amateurish way it could be described by (I am no mathematician)
say,

(20.234871E + (-)18.234871E ) plus (33.4563E + (-) 33.4563E)= +4

I see what you mean, I've had a similar idea.

I think that there are two infinities, the infinitly large and the infinitly small. Everything that is slightly smaller than the infinitly large becomes infinitly small. And everything that is slightly larger than the infinitly small becomes infinitly large.

So each point is both infinitly large and infinitly small at the same time (even each moment is infinitly short and long at the same time, cause it's allways something more or less to compare with).

This to me, proves that the truth is something inbetween, that's infinitly true and balance the infinities so that they all get a certain size.

The truth must be single even though it creates duality.

If the universe is infinitly big then we must be infinitly small in comparance. But if our buildingparts are infinitly small then we must be infinitly big in comparance. The truth is the balance between these two.

Nothing is infinite. Infinity is an idea, an abstraction. A grain of sand does not exist untill you define it as a separate thing. The definition makes the thing.

'tis true, 'tis true, 'tis true,
"Nothing" is infinite.:)

Nothing is infinite? What about numbers?
I thought space was infinite as well.

Numbers exist only as an idea, the same with infinite space.

Interesting.

My take on it is "Everything exists infinitely. Some, if not all, of everything goes through periods of identifiable finite states through transformation."

Or, something like that.

My take on it is "Everything exists infinitely. Some, if not all, of everything goes through periods of identifiable finite states through transformation."

this I like:)

All numbers positive and negative form an infinite set. if I pick up a number n eg. n= 4 then I get an instance of a finite number. (a grain of sand?).

But QQ what about a number 4444444444444...infinity(one number which is infinitely long). Can this number be represented in your model and how (there seems to be no finite instance of it)

the number 44444444(e) is infinite in size but is finite in level or pitch...in that it is 44444444(e) and not 77777777(e)

Isn't the existence of energy inifinite? Since energy can neither be created nor dystroyed then it must go on forever. Also isn't time infinite? The distance sound travels is also infinite is it not?

Originally posted by spidergoat
Nothing is infinite. Infinity is an idea, an abstraction. A grain of sand does not exist untill you define it as a separate thing. The definition makes the thing. '

So what you're trying to say is, nothing exists untill it is defined as a seperate thing then everything else in general? And that only by definine this thing as a differ will is come into existence? I don't seem to be able to comprehend what your saying here. Everything that exists, simply exists whether you define it as a seperate thing or not. If our eyes accidently over look something that's never been encountered then is that thing never existing or does it only exist when we define it as a seperate thing. Or by your definition, the second out eyes pass over it we are subconciously defining it as a seperate thing? How does this play into the idea of inifity and finite?

Votorx,

I'm suggesting that everything exists, but separate things do not. The illusion of separate things is created by the mind when we define and name them. A grain of sand exists, but as an undifferentiated whole, not separate from the beach, or the rest of the universe (uni=one), until we define a grain as being a small rock surrounded by air. The separation is a linguistic formality, useful for science, apparently real at certain scales, but at a very small scale, matter is more like a wave through a (continuous)medium. In a similar sense, infinity is a useful concept for science, but has no reality of it's own.

another way of looking at the issue to help clarify it a bit.

We are really talking in absolute terms.

A glass ashtray exists as a finite object however the ashtray is part of space, The ashtray takes up space and is space so where does the ashtray start and stop. It appears to us only because it's space is intense enough for us to see it or percieve it. If it's intensity drops to the ambient it ceases to be seen as finite and is seen as infinite but at all times it was infinite to start with.

Nothing is sizeless (you cannot meassure nothing)
Infinity is sizeless (you cannot meassure infinity)
Things object etc. have size (you can meassure things object etc.)

Things which you cannot measurre/percieve do not exist beoynd the realm of concepts (you can meassure a grain of sand).

so we take a grain of sand and measure it.

It weight 'x' mgramms say the figure is 2.345. This measurement is determined by what. The strength of gravity at a given point.

What affects gravity at a given point?
What comparison is able to be used as an absolute standard.

Ok...so weight is a contruct given as subjective.

Weight is floating within a range......

OK so we measure it's size. What are we going to measure. what we see or what is there.

Do we measure it's emmissions?
Do we measure it's location in space?
Do we measure it's gravity field?
Do we measure it's density?
How much space is inside of the grain of sand? Which space is it compared to?

What forces are within the grain of sand? How old is this grain of sand? where did it originate from? According to big bang theory it came from nothing. how finite is it?

Originally posted by Quantum Quack


What forces are within the grain of sand? How old is this grain of sand? where did it originate from? According to big bang theory it came from nothing. how finite is it?

Nothing n = 0 ; grain of sand gof = 1;

n = gof /0 = 1 --->wrong

therefore

n = gof - gof /0=1-1

gof is thus meassurable, finite
n is then unmeassurable, infinite

gof needs to came to existence or to exist not the infinity but -gof, the only force which counts here is the force that sustains the existence of both gof and -gof as separate entities because together they equal 0.

ProCop,

Nothing is sizeless (you cannot meassure nothing)
Infinity is sizeless (you cannot meassure infinity)
Things object etc. have size (you can meassure things object etc.)

Things which you cannot measurre/percieve do not exist beoynd the realm of concepts (you can meassure a grain of sand).



It seems to me that all things can only be measured within the realm of concepts. When it comes down to it, measurement is based on abstract mathematical concepts and measurement simply gives us a conceptual basis for relative comparision.

When I was a kid at school one lesson a maths teacher taught me stands out amongst all the others and that is when using maths you must keep in mind what you are mathing about and not loose sight of the object of your work.

To give consider a grain of sand as = 1 is fine .....and yes we have one grain of sand...this is true but what do we have one of?

We take two grains of sand and now we have =2 but we have two very different grains of sand allthough commonly referred to as sand but differnt for sure. How different are the grains of sand?

So

n=o true

Grain of sand = 1 and how is this one constituted.......Mathematics is all well and good but I would think it some times lacks proper grounding in that we all could sit here "infinitum" playing with abstractions such as numbers and this is another example of infinitity, numbers are infinite and so therefore are the combinations we can use.

If this is a worthwhile puruit then fine, but at least not be deluded in it's worth.

With in a grain of sand could exist an entire universe or universes etc....we do not know.

So the grain of sand = 1 thus 1 = infinity = 0

Quantum Quack,

With in a grain of sand could exist an entire universe or universes etc....we do not know.

So true in that we are limited by the tools with which we can observe, measure and know the universe(s).

/Many years ago when pondering the infinite...

Which infinite?

An infinite quantity of what?

numbers, time, space, infinate, and finate are all words created by humans to understand things better, to actually ask wether certain things within our own creative intellect have a beginning or an end is silly because we made these words and ideas, we cannot really tell if time exists or if an end exists because no one has experienced infinate to the extent that people talk about it. One could say that time does exist because people age... yet there in itself aging is just a word we have to explain the transformation of someone's mind and body. Its almost impossible not to use these words to explain something but that is because we have created them, therefore everyone already knows the answer

its 3:43 a.m. and i don't know what im talking about

its 3:43 a.m. and i don't know what im talking about

Me neither.....ha

But WesMorris
An infinite quantity of what?

Infinity is not a measurement.

comes to mind

Infinity is an absolute. An absolute vacuum is infinite vacuum not a measurment of quantity as infinity is unable to be quantified by it's very nature.

The finite is a part of the infinite that can be quantified prehaps.

The paradox is simply that if you could see for ever outwards it would take for ever to see it, there for it would never be seen. Thus again infinity gets relegated to the value zero or "n"

Infinity is not a measurement. But it is, it's the term we use when each dimension of an object or thought goes on forever. I dont understand what ya'll are trying to argue here.


Without infinity there cannot be a finite. Something can only be determined as finite when it is compared to something that is infinite. For instance, in a society where there is good and evil, something is determined as evil when it is compared and weighed with something we perceive as good. If there is no good, then there is no evil since it is uncomparable. I don't know how to explain it anymore. Either you understand what im saying or you don't.


In conclusion: There has to be an infinity.

a funny parallel comes to mind.
In another thread there is discussion about curved space and ants on a balloon.

If you could see for ever then you would see the back of your head.....ha.....I just thought this was funny some how...not sure why.

If you could look through a telescope and assuming no time delay you could actually see the back of your head....hmmmm......

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
a funny parallel comes to mind.
In another thread there is discussion about curved space and ants on a balloon.

If you could see for ever then you would see the back of your head.....ha.....I just thought this was funny some how...not sure why.

If you could look through a telescope and assuming no time delay you could actually see the back of your head....hmmmm......


um...no? There will be something black you're site before you reach the back of you head, and even if there was a clear path it doesn't necesserily mean that the universe in a loop so you would just be staring into nothingness. But what does this have to do with the topic!?!?

um...no? There will be something black you're site before you reach the back of you head, and even if there was a clear path it doesn't necesserily mean that the universe in a loop so you would just be staring into nothingness. But what does this have to do with the topic!?!?It has everything to do with the topic! (since a circle is infinitly finite).

Originally posted by Cyperium
It has everything to do with the topic! (since a circle is infinitly finite).


unfortunetly you're wrong since the universe is not in a loop. Therefore his statement had nothing to do with the topic. And according to spider goat that's just an idea making not an infinite or something, idk, i didn't quite understand what he ment.

I see, but he said it in the context that it was in a loop, therefor with the idea of the universe as a loop in focus the topic is described.

The universe as a "loop" is described with the picture of ants on a balloon, the starting point is the ending point.

The argument that the universe actually isn't in a loop, holds no value since it is assumed in the first place that it was in a loop.

I read in a popular swedish science magazine that cosmologists have found that there exists a infinite number of parallell universes since the "room" or universe that holds them is infinitly big (which recent studies of the background radiation have shown). Thus there exists a infinite number of universes where every possible event is played out. Each universe has a infinite number of copies as well, if there are a finite number of starting conditions for each universe.

What blocks the view of the back of my head would be considerable more interesting than the back of my head I assure you.

Say we have a look at destiny for a moment.

At this moment you are making choices, these choice are in the main impacted on by the choices of others, in fact every person on this planet effects the choices yo make in some way.

Take one step and infintity is applied by the end of 40 years of steps or living how much more is initnity applied to get you where you want to go?

Even if you think it as finite at the begining of your journey the impact of others on your desicions grows exponentially more infinite........as time goes on.

So from birth to death is there a figure that can be contrued so as to determine the number of impacts on your life, the figure can only be infinity, and as it is no figure then the answer is no, there is no figure that can be contrued.
Therefore infinity = 0 again.........ha

Im not sure exactly what you just said Quantum Quack

The argument that the universe actually isn't in a loop, holds no value since it is assumed in the first place that it was in a loop.

Of course the universe (stars,planet, matter in general) all existed in a loop during the bigbang. But the space, or vacuum around it is never ending and not in a loop. In other words if you start at the point of the big bang and walked in a straight line forever you would never end up back at the same spot.

Now the question is, did the big bang ever occur?

I will explain myself once i get the chance, this is my theory.

Im not sure exactly what you just said Quantum Quack

The argument that the universe actually isn't in a loop, holds no value since it is assumed in the first place that it was in a loop.

Of course the universe (stars,planet, matter in general) all existed in a loop during the bigbang. But the space, or vacuum around it is never ending and not in a loop. In other words if you start at the point of the big bang and walked in a straight line forever you would never end up back at the same spot.

Now the question is, did the big bang ever occur?

I will explain myself once i get the chance, this is my theory.There are (or maybe, were) theories that the universe is in a loop, bending around itself, but now I don't know, however, I assumed that "universe in a loop, at this time" was what he meant, and I still think it was what he intended.

But that's pretty irrelevant, since I rather hear your theory than discussing what we both allready know.

But that's pretty irrelevant, since I rather hear your theory than discussing what we both allready know.

What I've always wondered was, why was there only 1 big bang, and how exactly was all this matter created in the first place. My belief was, there was not just one big bang but rather millions, trillions, actually an inifinity of big bangs. Only it happens in intervals, a pattern lets say. The Universe is expanding rapidly, and excelerating as well. Now what if, in a different reality, the big bang never occured? What if we still are in that little speck of manner in a larger viod of space? How would we know? We simply wouldn't which is why i believe, in another "Universe" the big bang is yet to come. Once our planets reach a certain point in space it will suddenly explode outward causing a big bang in this "other Universe". With this force all life on each planet would be dystroyed and the universe would simply start over again, only to start another big bang in lets say another 3 or 4 billion years from that point. With this in mind i guess you can say that space really isn't infinite, but rather the neverending occurances of big bangs.

I guess this theory accepts the idea of the universe being in a loop.

What I've always wondered was, why was there only 1 big bang, and how exactly was all this matter created in the first place. My belief was, there was not just one big bang but rather millions, trillions, actually an inifinity of big bangs. Only it happens in intervals, a pattern lets say. The Universe is expanding rapidly, and excelerating as well. Now what if, in a different reality, the big bang never occured? What if we still are in that little speck of manner in a larger viod of space? How would we know? We simply wouldn't which is why i believe, in another "Universe" the big bang is yet to come. Once our planets reach a certain point in space it will suddenly explode outward causing a big bang in this "other Universe". With this force all life on each planet would be dystroyed and the universe would simply start over again, only to start another big bang in lets say another 3 or 4 billion years from that point. With this in mind i guess you can say that space really isn't infinite, but rather the neverending occurances of big bangs.

I guess this theory accepts the idea of the universe being in a loop.Just so you know, I'm no big defender of the idea of the universe being in a loop, I just think it's a nice theory along with other nice theories.

I think I see what you mean. There are theories out there that are alike the one you have. I myself see no reason why there wouldn't exist a infinite number of universes, as long as there are possibilities there are universes to hold them, I guess.

I myself see no reason why there wouldn't exist a infinite number of universes, as long as there are possibilities there are universes to hold them, I guess.

I never said that there were an infinite number of universes, if i did then i apoligize because that is not what i ment. What i ment to say was that there are an infinite number of "big bangs" There is only one universe and what we believe to be the universe is nothing but a small speck of condensed matter in a larger void in space. Then that larger void of space is a small speck of condensed matter in another larger void of space. But there is still only one universe, and that is the permeter in which the planets that exist now are in.

P.S to make things clearer, i believe space and the universe are 2 different things entirly, the universe is the perimeter around the planets which exist while space is the endless vacuum filling the spaces inbetween the planets and outside of the universe.

Ok, so each object, is like a single frozen image of a period during the Big Bang?

I like it! Both space and time showing the same picture only space has allready done it? Somehow. Someway.

I also like the idea that the universe and space are different.

I like it to.....

I used to hold to the notion that "space is the canvas that the universe is painted upon" but of course once the paint is applied it becomes joined to the canvas.

Ok, so each object, is like a single frozen image of a period during the Big Bang?

I like it! Both space and time showing the same picture only space has allready done it?

Unfortunetly im not 100% sure on what you're implying, can you explain yourself a bit for me? Thanks.

Unfortunetly im not 100% sure on what you're implying, can you explain yourself a bit for me? Thanks.What I meant is that each object is like a frozen image of each event during the big bang.

Thought that maybe this was what you meant too, or is it that each object is a universe of it's own - maybe also each part of a object? But then maybe we can mix the theories.

Cosmologists seems to hold the view that every point was the center of the Big Bang. Though they only believe there was one Big Bang (that happened everywhere). Everything is everything.

you seem to have noticed something that i have missed. What i ment when i explained my theory was this.

In our reality, the big bang has occured and while this is true this does not necessarily mean that there is only one big bang. I believe while in our reality everything seems infinite and extremely large, in another reality everything is still condensed in a small ball of matter. Kinda like that idea that every atom is entire universe. At some point our planets will reach a point in space where the planets or universe will explode outwards dystroying all life, with this in mind the universe will start over again, reevolve only to experiance the big bang a few billion years later.