If you are one of many, like myself who believen the possibility of more than one Universe, then that means there is an infinite possibility something does exist, and doesn't.For example, the movie... "Mission Impossible", you think it up in your own mind. What if that movie in another Universe existed. Then again, there's an infinite possibility it doesn't exist. If there is an infinite amount of spectrums, Universes, dimensions, etc. Then that means there's an infinite possibility anything exists or it doesn't. Which is not to say "ANYTHING" exists, but on the grounds that it can, or can't. This doesn't prove that anything is possible, but it also means anything CAN be possible. Parelell Universes theorized could be something non existant, Universes where Unicorns exist could be possible. Which also means your thoughts can be connected with everything, (if your a believer of the soul), and that you, in the likeness of God are connected with everything and your thoughts can or can't be a true possibility. Whatever you think can or can't exist due to an infinite possibility.

Are there any thoughts on this?

There's really no end to the possibilities. Unless it's all parallels to this Universe. Though that's igsignificant, because if they are all parallels to this Universe that means a limited Universe with limited possibilities is being repeated an infinite amount of times thus there is a limit in itself to being repeated, and it's repetition becomes irrelivant.

I SEE NO REASON TO BELIEVE IN INFINATE UNIVERSES....

i mean gesh... thats alot of work for GOD... dont you think???

it is much more rational to believe as metaphysics puts it...

as there being mutiple planes of existance... of some some limited number...
each plane.. being a higher universe... where the laws of physics, differ in specific ways... the simplist being a variation in the universal PI value...\

our universe is 3.14....

a higher universe maybe 4.75.... in this way, each universe, maybe part of a natural progression... in levels of state...

which each higher state becoming more and more in line and likeness too the mysterious GOD PLANE, WHICH ALL THESE universe are in...
the god plane, then surrounds the multi-verse.... and perhaps, the idea of advancing souls threw these planes... can be seen as reasonable based on the idea of engineering the quality of our souls, to at some final point being worthy of transition into the original source... the god plane... being heaven.

of course... its all theory, and conjecture.. since we have no real evidense egarding what may be beyond our space and time.

-MT

I SEE NO REASON TO BELIEVE IN INFINATE UNIVERSES....

i mean gesh... thats alot of work for GOD... dont you think???

Not if he is "all powerful" or deistic. Just like a computer program.. someone makes it, then it's up to the program to make things and do things for him.

it is much more rational to believe as metaphysics puts it...

as there being mutiple planes of existance... of some some limited number...
each plane.. being a higher universe... where the laws of physics, differ in specific ways... the simplist being a variation in the universal PI value...\

our universe is 3.14....

a higher universe maybe 4.75.... in this way, each universe, maybe part of a natural progression... in levels of state...

which each higher state becoming more and more in line and likeness too the mysterious GOD PLANE, WHICH ALL THESE universe are in...
the god plane, then surrounds the multi-verse.... and perhaps, the idea of advancing souls threw these planes... can be seen as reasonable based on the idea of engineering the quality of our souls, to at some final point being worthy of transition into the original source... the god plane... being heaven.

of course... its all theory, and conjecture.. since we have no real evidense egarding what may be beyond our space and time.

-MT

What?

WHY believe in unlimited universes???

why not just 7... or 21??

why infinite??? such an assumption is based on nothing.

-MT

Because being finite doesn't make sense from where I am sitting. If it is finite, then it has a border. What is outside the border? What is the universe expanding towards? Will the stars just bounce off the "walls?"

The universe could be said to be infinite because it is based on the fact that a finite universe makes little sense.

you are accepting alot of assumptions.......

there is no real evidense.. that space is expanding.

only that photons expand over cosmic distances.

-MT

Well please explain to me how a finite universe would exist. In what sense?

From what I understand, the universe is finite. This doesn't imply a border; that's a leap of logic. Think of how the two dimensional surface of a sphere is finite but without borders.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/304/fthoughts27gi.th.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fthoughts27gi.jpg)

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/6205/thoeeeee22229hu.th.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thoeeeee22229hu.jpg)

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/382/th3337ep.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=th3337ep.jpg)

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/3725/theory441zl.th.jpg (http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theory441zl.jpg)

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1994/the5556ni.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=the5556ni.jpg)

OF COURSE... its all theory.

-MT

From what I understand, the universe is finite. This doesn't imply a border; that's a leap of logic. Think of how the two dimensional surface of a sphere is finite but without borders.

But this sphere exists in 3D.

But this sphere exists in 3D.
And this universe exists in 4D.

Alright, here's the deal, if it is defnite size, it is limited, whethe it has a shape to it or not. And the one bullet proof logic of the Universe expanding is causality. Nothing just "happend" on it's own without the big bang to come into play. Causality is the source of all reaction.

Also, if it is ONE Universe, or SEVEN Universes, with a SET amount of building blocks, it's definite. Thus there is a limit, there is no variation, God is limited without variety.

But what I am saying is that your plane exists in 3D. And where does this 3D universe end?

Let me try this:

Start with a line.. we claim it is finite universe. Well to do this wrap it around into a circle. This circle exists in 2D.. for this to exist in a finite universe, we place it around a sphere in 3D... then 4D.. then 5D.. ect. Seems we have to keep placing the finite universe in another finite universe just to make it finite... and it would also seem (at least to me) that this 1D universe exists in an infinitely sized universe just to make it finite... a contradiction? I think..

I am just rambling.. I haven't slept well in a few weeks :/

indeed, a paradox. Thus dimensions would have to be infinitely negative and positive, yet another never ending chain.

Thankyou for the input Absane. Though you claim your rambling, and you've been up for weeks this is profound, no doubt about it.

Due to the theory that dimensions function as a creation of dimension in order for another dimension to exist, (i.e dots making line and a line making a 3 dimensional object) it can be reasonably infered that even the 1D universe would need something to be it's building block, thus it never ends.

All right, I found a nice synopsis that explains it pretty well.
http://superstringtheory.com/cosmo/cosmo21.html

According to this page, a closed universe (with enough mass to bend space to a positive curvature) would basically be a hypersphere, finite but without borders. In an open universe, space would go on forever. Most scientists today, IIRC, agree that the latter is more likely, so you would be right.

Edit note: this is a continuation of my last post.

Like, assume this 1D line is 1 unit long.. the 2D universe it is in is 1/PI x 1/PI units long... something smaller for the 3D universe.. same for the 4D universe... at infinity, it would be 0 x 0 x 0 x 0 x ... units for all it's infinite directions.

Wow that is messed up. It seems the 1D universe and all that create it would just be a point.

Notice my style and laziness is showing :(

The universe is infinite in this sense. it is expanding now and will be forever so its constantly going outward. Think of it this way. Our universe is a ripple in an infinite pond and our ripple keeps going until it hits the edge but of course there is no edge becuase the pond is infinte.

NONE of you read my last posts... and you all make alot of assumptions...

and you to easily adopt the assumptions of others...

real scientists... who form these theories... know... how limited they are..

and they know how to argue against them...

these things.. they dont speak to the public.

-MT

But the purpose of whats outside of that pond? The absence of anything? That's also what comes into play here. Purpose, signifigance. The purpose of variety is in itself variety. If there was one Universe or a definition, then the results (if you believen reincarnation) are chaotic.

And the Universe is also theorized to implode on itself when it's done expanding. Some would believe it does that forever, (infinite causality), I am one of those believers. As it's end wouldn't be a signifigance, but it's infinite cause would be a signifigance to the regeneration of the Universe and it's causality contueing.

As for the latter i can come to an agreement of that as well. That the Universes act as a shell for one another like Absane said.

And with my assumption comes a certain logic Mosheh. It illustrates Gods indefinition. Again I say with definition, even without border, can still be considered limiting.

And I can still consider what you have just shown me as assumption in itself. Becuz even if it is a theory, a theory is by definition an educated guess, not proof in itself or definite logic. My logic may not have any scientifice evidence, as it does not involve beakers tests tubes or telescopes, but it does involve logic. There are some things that science cannot explain.

real scientists... who form these theories... know... how limited they are..

What makes a "real scientist?" Sounds like academic elitism.

There are things existing that scientists cannot explain. As I said before, theories aren't proof, just educated guesses. And as I see it education doesn't answer EVERY question. Nor will it. No one has all the answers.

I myself am not a scientist.

I argue even what we think we know could all be wrong. All what we know is based on experience, which could just be fooling us.

Indeed. What we think we know could be all wrong. All we can rely on in the end is logic we use to answer certain questions, even if it's a weapon flawed.

Moshuh,

this is what I was talking about, the kind of thinker a scientist is

http://www.concentric.net/~marlowe/curdef.shtml

Scientists have the benefit of know what's around them and how things work, but not knowing whats outside of that and why things are the way they are, and what else there is besides their perception.

---------------but not knowing whats outside of that and why things are the way they are, and what else there is besides their perception. ---------

EXACTLY... hence... the abundance of assumptions in science theory.

which some of you... eat up like it was candy.

-MT

Look, I'd offer more thought to this but I am losing my train of thought here Mosheh, it's 2:30 AM.

Thnx for your input and descussion.

And yes, I have looked into the God plain theory before, don't worry, I did read what you said.

Anyway, thnx for the descussion tonight everyone, this has been thought provoking. All input was thought provoking.

There is nothing outside the pond. Its all there is. Also absane shell also works with the pond analogy. The ripples could be universes all there own.

There is nothing outside the pond. Its all there is. Also absane shell also works with the pond analogy. The ripples could be universes all there own.

Expanding in a 2D space, which needs to be infinite for them to keep expanding.

Basically.. I guess what I am trying to say is that for something finite to exist, it must be a member of something infinite. Or something... :bugeye:

Basically.. I guess what I am trying to say is that for something finite to exist, it must be a member of something infinite. Or something... :bugeye:
Hmm...true. Becuase if it is finte it has borders. So there has to be something outside the border..Nice absane now you got my head hurting :bugeye: :p

It's apparent to me that a "border" implies something must be outside that border. Not that I claim it must be material past the border, perhaps just space. Whether our universe is finite or infinite, it must exist in another universe, finite or infinite... and it keeps going. Like imagine a plane in our 3D universe.. you can picture it infinite if you want... you agree there is another dimension perpendicular to that? I cannot see 2D or even 3D existing on its own. But, like I said in some other thread, I am claiming things based on experience with reason... what says my experience is correct? And perhaps my reasoning is incorrect.

I see what your saying. I think i like my pond analogy. It works with all things. Like life. Think of us as finte ripples in a infinte pond.

Well, here is an immediate problem I have with the pond theory. As the ripples expand, it would seem reasonable to state that everything stretches, which would mean the distance from A to B is always the same relative to us (but of course different from the outside)... so anything that is extanding in the universe would still bump into each other at some point.

true..... but we're also looking at this in a 3 dimensional view Absane.

These ripples might not hit in the sense that they might not all be the same properties. Example being a something from a dimension, it can't touch the other.

Also we are thinking of this in size matters. Again we really don't know how it would all work out seeing as we are contemplating all of this with minds that think in such ways of size, shape, and volume and definition.

Thus the ripples in some way or another could work out, but we can't actually imagine such a thing because again we have limited perspective, a 3 dimensional
experience, a 3 Dimensional mind, perspective, sight, etc. Thus we really can't imagine such a thing. We're thinking in spacial terms here, and what we think is spacial, could be different.

As Mosheh said, the Universe has limit but no boundry. We're all thinking too spacially here. These Universe's could well be something totally different or more than 3D, thus spacial, and shape and volume mean nothing, and when they expand they don't hit eachother.

Just a theory of mine really.

Oh and forgive me for possibly being closed minded yesturday people, I was tired and had a migraine.

And I looked into your theory on the ripples, and it does make a lot of sense. Though I still go with big bang, I do not doubt the God plane theory all of with the ripples outside of it infinitely.