I am sick of people always blaming the US for all the worlds ills. So, under the glass houses doctrine, let us discuss some of the atrocities committed by the great nation of India.

Let's see, we've got widespread rape by Indian security forces:
"As the conflict in Kashmir enters its fourth year, central and state authorities have done little to stop the widespread practice of rape by Indian security forces in Kashmir. Indeed, when confronted with the evidence of rape, time and again the authorities have attempted to impugn the integrity of the witnesses, discredit the testimony of physicians or simply deny the charges everything except order a full inquiry and prosecute those responsible for rape".
(Asia Watch and Physicians for Human Rights, May 09, 1993)

"(On February 23, 1991), at least 23 women were reportedly raped in their homes at gunpoint (at Kunan Poshpora in Kashmir). Some are said to have been gang-raped, others to have been raped in front of their children ... The youngest victim was a girl of 13 named Misra, the oldest victim, name Jana, was aged 80".
(Amnesty International, March 1992)

"Young girls were now being raped systematically by entire (Indian) army units rather than by a single soldier as before. Girls are taken to soldier's camps and held naked in their tents for days on end. Many never return home....Women are strung up naked from trees and their breast lacerated with knives, as the (Indian) soldiers tell them that their breast will never give milk again to a newborn militant. Women are raped in front of their husbands and children, or paraded naked through villages and beaten on the breasts."
(The Independent, September 18, 1990)
http://hellinparadise.150m.com/examples.htm
Torture:
"The most common torture methods are severe beatings, sometimes while the victim is hung upside down, and electric shocks. People have also been crushed with heavy rollers, burned, stabbed with sharp instruments, and had objects such as chilies or thick sticks forced into their rectums. Sexual mutilation has been reported".
(Amnesty International, March 1992)
Gee, that sounds worse than being put in a pile of naked men while some hick chick laughs at you.

Then there's the treatment of their "untouchables":
Human rights abuses against these people, known as Dalits, are legion. A random sampling of headlines in mainstream Indian newspapers tells their story: "Dalit boy beaten to death for plucking flowers"; "Dalit tortured by cops for three days"; "Dalit 'witch' paraded naked in Bihar"; "Dalit killed in lock-up at Kurnool"; "7 Dalits burnt alive in caste clash"; "5 Dalits lynched in Haryana"; "Dalit woman gang-raped, paraded naked"; "Police egged on mob to lynch Dalits".
And if you thought it was bad in the US for blacks before the civil rights movement:
"Dalits are not allowed to drink from the same wells, attend the same temples, wear shoes in the presence of an upper caste, or drink from the same cups in tea stalls," said Smita Narula, a senior researcher with Human Rights Watch, and author of Broken People: Caste Violence Against India's "Untouchables." Human Rights Watch is a worldwide activist organization based in New York.

India's Untouchables are relegated to the lowest jobs, and live in constant fear of being publicly humiliated, paraded naked, beaten, and raped with impunity by upper-caste Hindus seeking to keep them in their place. Merely walking through an upper-caste neighborhood is a life-threatening offense.

"There have been large-scale abuses by the police, acting in collusion with upper castes, including raids, beatings in custody, failure to charge offenders or investigate reported crimes," said Narula.

That same year, 68,160 complaints were filed against the police for activities ranging from murder, torture, and collusion in acts of atrocity, to refusal to file a complaint. Sixty two percent of the cases were dismissed as unsubstantiated; 26 police officers were convicted in court.
And this bit here is almost unbelievable:
Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes.
They had to pass a special law to make it clear that it was illegal to forcibly parade people naked thru the streets; make them eat shit; take their land; foul their water, and burn down their homes!!!! WTF!!!!!!

And check out this horrific story:
A 42-year-old Dalit woman was gang-raped and then burnt alive after she, her husband, and two sons had been held in captivity and tortured for eight days. Her crime? Another son had eloped with the daughter of the higher-caste family doing the torturing. The local police knew the Dalit family was being held, but did nothing because of the higher-caste family's local influence.
Perhaps Brian de Palma could make a movie about this.

And, of course, they have great respect for the rights of women and children:
Thousands of pre-teen Dalit girls are forced into prostitution under cover of a religious practice known as devadasis, which means "female servant of god." The girls are dedicated or "married" to a deity or a temple. Once dedicated, they are unable to marry, forced to have sex with upper-caste community members, and eventually sold to an urban brothel.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/06/0602_030602_untouchables.html
This was just the first two links I found under "Indian Atrocities". Maybe you guys can find some more. I'd say this stuff makes the infamous abu ghraib seem like fraternity pranks.

....whoa. Is that for real?

I am sick of people always blaming the US for all the worlds ills. So, under the glass houses doctrine, let us discuss some of the atrocities committed by the great nation of India.

As an American, I place the US on a higher standard than I do any other nation. We should be better, and for a great amount of things we are. That doesn't mean that whenever we get a finger pointed at us for doing something wrong that we should childishly point back. It means that we should either accept that we did something wrong and do our best to prevent it from happening again, or do our damned best to prove that we did the right thing. Again, not compare what we do to what another nation does because, quite simply, we should be better.

Its terrible, especially with the decade and a half of war at the border

In Kashmir
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kashmir/doda.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/09/08/india14159.htm


In Sri Lanka
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DEEDF173EF934A25756C0A96F9482 60&n=Top%2FNews%2FWorld%2FCountries%20and%20Territori es%2FIndia

Hopefully they are trying to make things more transparent


The challenge before the COAS (Chief of Army Staff) is clear - institutionalizing a culture where human rights are not seen as adversarial to the army. This will not be easy. The short-lived success of the army's goodwill initiative in the Ladakh region (Operation Sadabhavana) epitomizes the problems ahead. Pushed largely by one senior officer, the process was relegated to the backburner soon after his departure from Leh. In that sense, as good as it may be to have a progressive COAS; this cannot replace systematic and institutional change in the army.

Human rights violations, unfortunately, continue to be reported regularly, leading one to believe these are systemic and institutional. Even in situations where the protection of special legislation (e.g. The Armed Forces Special Powers Act) may be available, the current practices of the army are unlikely to pass the required threshold of international humanitarian law. In cases where action on complaints is taken, the focus remains on the individual violators; no examination is made to ask if the violations are institutionalized in the de-facto operating procedures of the army. This is necessary, because some standard operation procedures - e.g. 'taking no prisoners' in fire-fights in Counter-Intelligence Operations (CI Ops), and the use of torture to extract information - inherently lend themselves to rights violations.

Especially with th effects on army personnel
http://www.indiatogether.org/2007/jan/fah-army.htm

he Indian Army has been surprisingly candid in releasing figures of the suicides and fratricides that have wracked the force in the recent past. A report out of Kashmir in the Himal of December 2006 carries the revealing statistics that in October this year there were ten fratricide cases as against only three deaths in combat operations. All told, in the first ten months of the year, the army lost 55 soldiers to terrorism in Kashmir, while one third more took their own lives. It is not a figure that any army would release of its own, since morale related security reasons would have stymied such openness.

That 500 defense personnel have reportedly either committed suicide or were killed by colleagues in the past four years indicates that the problem has crossed the threshold in which it could be treated as internal to the army. The Ministry of Defense has had to write to the Army to act more liberally in the grant of leave to its soldiers as a stress relieving measure. This is the first issue that the newly appointed Minister of Defence, A K Antony, has involved himself with, indicating the concern in South Block.

Cops are the same, underpaid, undereducated, undertrained and overwhelmed
So they are now sent for destressing programs to help them to control rage and frustration

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1190361.cms

Fortunately our problems are all being addressed by the government and the people.

As an American, I place the US on a higher standard than I do any other nation. We should be better, and for a great amount of things we are. That doesn't mean that whenever we get a finger pointed at us for doing something wrong that we should childishly point back. It means that we should either accept that we did something wrong and do our best to prevent it from happening again, or do our damned best to prove that we did the right thing. Again, not compare what we do to what another nation does because, quite simply, we should be better.

Perhaps but that is no reason to ignore the fact that India has the capacity to do better than what is present:

Here for example is Boston Globe article on India's role in supporting the military junta in Burma

WHEN ARGUING for a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council or assuring the Bush administration that India can be trusted with American nuclear technology - even though it has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty - Indian officials recite the mantra that India is the world's biggest democracy. But India's shameful collaboration with the military junta in Burma that has been arresting and killing Buddhist monks and civilian protesters raises a serious question: Is India betraying its democratic values for the sake of its great-power ambitions?

There is no mystery about the reasons for India's complicity with the Burmese generals. There are purely commercial motives, a thirst for access to Burma's oil and natural gas reserves. There's a desire to gain the junta's cooperation in crushing insurgent groups that have been crossing from Burma into India's northeast to mount guerrilla operations. But above all, India has abandoned solidarity with Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi and her colleagues because Indian policy makers are obsessed by their strategic competition with China.

India had once been Suu Kyi's most ardent supporter. She lived in India for several years with her late husband; her mother once served as Burma's ambassador to India. And of course Buddhism sprang from India.

But when Human Rights Watch called last week for a Security Council arms embargo on the junta, it named India along with China and Russia as "nations supplying Burma with weapons that the military uses to commit human rights abuses." Human Rights Watch described "a vast array of military hardware" India has supplied to the junta, including artillery, aircraft, tanks, and helicopters for use against minority ethnic groups in border areas and citizen protesters.

In other words, India sells some of the world's most vicious dictators weapons to kill people in Burma who yearn for democracy. This is not the behavior of a true democracy.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/10/14/indias_identity_crisis_in_burma/

Certainly not a role I want to see as the future of Indian policy.

Its good to keep the media light focused on such things so they don't become an acceptable part of the government policy

Perhaps but that is no reason to ignore the fact that India has the capacity to do better than what is present

There's a difference between pointing out the fact that India has the capacity to do better, and specifically using India's weaknesses as a response to criticism of our country and it's policies.

As an American, I place the US on a higher standard than I do any other nation.
Well sure, but it gets a bit tiring to see damn near every thread turned into a bash America fest.

And really, I can't get over that Prevention of Atrocities Act. Was poisoning wells legal prior to that? Or burning down houses? Or stripping people naked and forcing them to march down the street? Or forcing them to literally eat shit!

There's a difference between pointing out the fact that India has the capacity to do better, and specifically using India's weaknesses as a response to criticism of our country and it's policies.
It's called perspective. America's ills are magnified and put on the Jumbo-tron by people from nations in which our worst actions would be a huge improvement.

Look at the De Palma movie highlighting a single infamous rape commited by US soldiers. Yet in India this practice is so widespread as to seem a deliberate policy. And nary a movie in site. Until I did the google search, I'd never heard a word about it.

And really, I can't get over that Prevention of Atrocities Act. Was poisoning wells legal prior to that? Or burning down houses? Or stripping people naked and forcing them to march down the street? Or forcing them to literally eat shit!

No, but accountability is required. A law makes people accountable.

Eating shit as a form of torture is not a new phenomenon.

You must have heard of the expression "eat shit and die!"?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=qg8&q=forced+to+eat+feces+torture&btnG=Search
Well sure, but it gets a bit tiring to see damn near every thread turned into a bash America fest.

In terms of sheer magnitude of conflicts and deaths caused in countries, you beat everyone hollow; it's hard to escape the US influence in any conflict ridden country in the world today. The sad part, of course, is how little the people of the US themselves care about it.

There's a difference between pointing out the fact that India has the capacity to do better, and specifically using India's weaknesses as a response to criticism of our country and it's policies.

Hopefully, seeing it happen in other countries will give them a fresh perspective on how they appear to others.

No, but accountability is required. A law makes people accountable.Yes, but weren't those things already illegal? I can't imagine a legal system that would allow the actions covered by the Prevention of Atrocities Act.
Eating shit as a form of torture is not a new phenomenon.
You must have heard of the expression "eat shit and die!"?
Sure, but I'd never heard of anyone actually doing it. I mean, if I tell someone to "blow me!", I hardly expect them to drop to their knees and perform fellatio!

Well sure, but it gets a bit tiring to see damn near every thread turned into a bash America fest.

That's because you seem unable to comprehend the enormity of the mistakes we have made recently as a nation. We have (had) something like the Prevention of Atrocities Act, called the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which the Bush Justice Department specifically undermined by condoning some forms of torture.

Yes, but weren't those things already illegal? I can't imagine a legal system that would allow the actions covered by the Prevention of Atrocities Act.


They wouldn't but most of our laws range from the British and need updating.

Sure, but I'd never heard of anyone actually doing it. I mean, if I tell someone to "blow me!", I hardly expect them to drop to their knees and perform fellatio!


But the fact that there is a phrase called blow me, should tell you it does happen often enough to warrant a phrase.

It's called perspective. America's ills are magnified and put on the Jumbo-tron by people from nations in which our worst actions would be a huge improvement.

And I still disagree with using that tactic as a response to criticism. The point you're trying to make is "Hey, we could be a lot worse."

As an American, I place the US on a higher standard than I do any other nation. We should be better, and for a great amount of things we are. That doesn't mean that whenever we get a finger pointed at us for doing something wrong that we should childishly point back. It means that we should either accept that we did something wrong and do our best to prevent it from happening again, or do our damned best to prove that we did the right thing. Again, not compare what we do to what another nation does because, quite simply, we should be better.

From what I have read in MadA'a post, we do operate at a higher standard, there has been nothing like this in Iraq or Afghanistan, or any war since the Indian Wars.


ashura, when every post by SpAM is nothing but a endless propaganda attack on the U.S. as the evil in the world, isn't it permissible to look at SpAM's country, the person who is doing the attacking, and ask the same question's, why isn't she doing more to clean up her own country's atrocities? It seems SpAM has more than enough to keep her busy cleaning up India with out worrying about the U.S. India's suppose to be the biggest democracy in the world, it also seems to be the biggest violator of human rights in the Free world.

But yet she sits safe at her daddies home and make endless attacks about America, I wonder what would happen to Her if she got her ass out on the streets and started to do something about the mess in her own back yard, or is it safer to attack the U.S. because she knows that she can do so with impunity? at home she just might end up in jail? at the Least? or worse?

So SpAM sits in daddies home and does nothing, but point fingers at everybody but India because it is safer for her precious little butt to do so, and she feels like she is doing something.

as the pre-eminent member and representative of the aryan defence caucus in sciforums
i take issue with these false accusations
you barbarians are hopeless
animals

naya zindagee
naya jeevan

fools

as the pre-eminent member and representative of the aryan defence caucus in sciforums
i take issue with these false accusations
you barbarians are hopeless
animals

You're Indian!:eek:

Please tell me you are ABCD

And I still disagree with using that tactic as a response to criticism. The point you're trying to make is "Hey, we could be a lot worse."


so wonderfully childlike ja?
my fellow americans glow with pride at the ability to nuke anyone at the drop of a hat

the fuckers are renowned for hypocrisy

You dont want to be a widow in India either.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/07/05/damon.india.widows/index.html

You're Indian!:eek:

Please tell me you are ABCD

do you find them sexy?

It's called perspective.

That's true. America's transgressions are much worse.

You dont want to be a widow in India either.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/07/05/damon.india.widows/index.html
Wow.
These Hindu widows, the poorest of the poor, are shunned from society when their husbands die, not for religious reasons, but because of tradition -- and because they're seen as a financial drain on their families.

They cannot remarry. They must not wear jewelry. They are forced to shave their heads and typically wear white. Even their shadows are considered bad luck.

Hindus have long believed that death in Vrindavan will free them from the cycle of life and death. For widows, they hope death will save them from being condemned to such a life again.

Giri's mother was widowed when Giri was 9 years old, and she saw what a struggle it was. Then, Giri lost her husband when she was 50, enduring the social humiliation that comes with being a widow. At times, she was asked not to attend weddings because her presence was considered bad luck.

"Generally all widows are ostracized," she says. "An educated woman may have money and independence, but even that is snatched away when she becomes a widow. We live in a patriarchal society. Men say that culturally as a widow you cannot do anything: You cannot grow your hair, you should not look beautiful."

Bent over by osteoporosis, 85-year-old Promita Das meticulously and slowly sweeps the floor just outside her door and then carefully cleans her dishes.

"I came here when I couldn't work anymore. I used to clean houses," she says. "Nobody looked after me, nobody loved me. I survived on my own."

She married at 12 and was widowed at 15. Seventy years later, she finds herself at Amar Bari. "I used to live in front of a temple, but then I came here," she says.
Can you imagine that. You're 15 years old and your just supposed to sit around and wait to die? Can you imagine the worry of a woman whose husband goes off to war? Should he die, you'll be ostracized. I wonder what happens to a young mother with children whose husband dies. Are they also expected to go away and die too? Or perhaps grandparents take care of them?

ashura, when every post by SpAM is nothing but a endless propaganda attack on the U.S. as the evil in the world, isn't it permissible to look at SpAM's country, the person who is doing the attacking, and ask the same question's, why isn't she doing more to clean up her own country's atrocities?

Permissible? Sure, you have every right to do that. But is it right? Is it the proper response? Comparing the US to a third world country to justify American policies that might rightly deserve criticism? What's the point? Again, it says nothing better than "we could be worse."

Madant:

In the poorest of the poor, the parents usually have two choices: starvation and prostitution. Either the children starve to death, or are put to work. With the lack of work available, prostitution sometimes is the only option for survival.

The treatment of the widows usually reflects the lack of desire on the part of a family to support an additional mouth. If they could remove her, it would mean they could feed more to their kids. Its also the reasons why girls are married earlier, so the responsibility of feeding them can be transferred.

A quarter of the population lives on less than a dollar a day.

Madant:

In the poorest of the poor, the parents usually have two choices: starvation and prostitution. Either the children starve to death, or are put to work. With the lack of work available, prostitution sometimes is the only option for survival.

The treatment of the widows usually reflects the lack of desire on the part of a family to support an additional mouth. If they could remove her, it would mean they could feed more to their kids.
Wow. So what's your opinion of campaigns against buying products made using child labor? Given the option of working or starving, I'd say such campaigns are counterproductive, to say the least.

Wow. So what's your opinion of campaigns against buying products made using child labor? Given the option of working or starving, I'd say such campaigns are counterproductive, to say the least.



Much of the child labour is parents and children working alongside, so its hard to judge them for trying to survive.

I think we first need to eliminate the poverty and ensure education, otherwise, we just leave them with grandiose notions of human rights, those are no good for a starving child.

Permissible? Sure, you have every right to do that. But is it right? Is it the proper response? Comparing the US to a third world country to justify American policies that might rightly deserve criticism? What's the point? Again, it says nothing better than "we could be worse."
If you base your opinions on the posts in this forum, you'd think the US had the worst human rights record in the history of humanity. You say we shouldn't compare ourselves with a third world country? I'll bet there are plenty of people who think the US human rights record is worse than India's because you never hear squat about the horrific abuses there.

And I'm not saying India is particularly bad compared to the rest of the world. We just happen to have a prominent member of our forum that's from there.

I think we first need to eliminate the poverty and ensure education, otherwise, we just leave them with grandiose notions of human rights, those are no good for a starving child.
I agree 100%. (bet you never thought you'd hear me say that)

You're Indian!:eek:

Please tell me you are ABCD

Gustav is some sort of cataphract of love....I think

He's the one on the left.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/parthians/images/parthian_sassanian_cataphracts.jpg

I agree 100%. (bet you never thought you'd hear me say that)

Actually I would have been surprised if it was otherwise.;)

(You should not confuse my opinions of the country's policies with my opinion of individual Americans; one of my friends told me I have a big mouth and a sharp tongue, but she knows she can trust me to tell her whats what and still be on her side, that is the best description of me anyone has ever made :))

Gustav is some sort of cataphract of love....I think

No he's just a pretentious poseur.

No he's just a pretentious poseur.

Bite your tongue!! No one can say so much with so little.

There are a couple of East iNDIANS in my school, all they do is play cricket and probably sleep wth each other. I doubt if they have an idea of the existance of this thread, I also doubt they will care.

Hopefully they are trying to make things more transparent

Fortunately our problems are all being addressed by the government and the people.

...er...apparently, yes.

Just not as far as the Afghanis are concerned, it seems.

...er...apparently, yes.

Just not as far as the Afghanis are concerned, it seems.

Feel free to ignore the reason they are pouring over the border.

Or the gunfire they're receiving at the border! :D

Maybe, though, India's just moved up to a more moral plane that I'm just not able to understand. By shooting them, I mean.

madan:

I am sick of people always blaming the US for all the worlds ills. So, under the glass houses doctrine, let us discuss some of the atrocities committed by the great nation of India.


Ooooh, looks like I've started a trend! :D

Or the gunfire they're receiving at the border! :D

Maybe, though, India's just moved up to a more moral plane that I'm just not able to understand. By shooting them, I mean.

Yeah, we're trying to teach them democracy, a la NATO. :rolleyes:

They're not shooting them for just crossing the border.

Many of the refugees who have been here for a decade, have been given citizenship (http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/news/opendoc.htm?tbl=NEWS&id=441190254&page=news); its hard to keep up with the messes the secularists keep dumping on our borders, with a quarter of our population living on less than a dollar.

And its not the first Afghan refugee crisis precipitated by the freedom lovers

By the way, folks, don't forget the Indians treatment of their indigenous people (the Advisasis).

http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Dalit-tribal/2003/adivasi.htm


Adivasis at the lowest rung of the ladder
Adivasis are not, as a general rule, regarded as unclean by caste Hindus in the same way as Dalits are. But they continue to face prejudice (as lesser humans), they are socially distanced and often face violence from society. They are at the lowest point in every socioeconomic indicator. Today the majority of the population regards them as primitive and aims at decimating them as peoples or at best integrating them with the mainstream at the lowest rung in the ladder. This is especially so with the rise of the fascist Hindutva forces.

And this is the kicker, folks:

The invasion of Adivasi territories, which for the most part commenced during the colonial period, intensified in the post-colonial period. Most of the Adivasi territories were claimed by the state. Over 10 million Adivasis have been displaced to make way for development projects such as dams, mining, industries, roads, protected areas etc. Though most of the dams (over 3000) are located in Adivasi areas, only 19.9% (1980-81) of Adivasi land holdings are irrigated as compared to 45.9% of all holdings of the general population. India produces as many as 52 principal, 3 fuel, 11 metallic, 38 non-metallic and a number of minor minerals.


Looks like Westerners aren't the only folks who have a penchant for displacing indigenous populations!

By the way, folks, don't forget the Indians treatment of their indigenous people (the Advisasis).

http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Dalit-tribal/2003/adivasi.htm



And this is the kicker, folks:


Looks like Westerners aren't the only folks who have a penchant for displacing indigenous populations!

:rolleyes:

Reservation in Indian law is a form of affirmative action whereby a percentage of seats are reserved in the Parliament of India, State Legislative Assemblies, Central and State Civil Services, Public Sector Units, Central and State Governmental Departments and in all Public and Private Educational Institutions, except in the Minority and Religious Educational Institutions, for the socially and educationally backward classes of citizens or the Scheduled Castes and Tribes who are perceived by the Government to be inadequately represented in these services and institutions.

Caste is the predominant factor used for Reservation in India, though reservation is also offered based on other parameters like Religion, State of Domicile etc. Central government of India reservs 27% of government jobs and places in higher education[1], but certain Indian states like Tamilnadu follows this caste based reservation since 1921 and currently reserves 69% seats

In Central government-funded higher education institutions: 22.5% for scheduled caste (dalit) and scheduled tribe (adivasi) students. (15% for SC and 7.5% for ST) It has been proposed to raising this to 49.5%, by including 27% reservation for OBCs also.[2]. In AIIMS 14% reserved for SC, 8% for ST. In addition, SC/ST students with only 50% scores are eligible. This ratio is followed even in Parliament and all elections where few constituencies are earmarked for those from Certain communities. In few states like Tamil Nadu, the percentage of reservation is 18% for SC and 1% for ST and this is based on the population. In Andhra Pradesh educational institutes and government jobs 25% for BCs, 15% for SCs, 6% for STs and 5% to Muslims, total: 51% (Note: 5% Muslim Quota is under the purview of the Court)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India

And when the choice is between development and starvation, development should win.

So good to see that you give your oppressed citizens some token representation, S.A.M. That ought to make up for the theft of their land, huh?

And what's truly hilarious here is how you try to justify the theft, instead of just admitting that it was unethical for you Indians to displace 10 million people. And then you turn around and whine (yes, that's right, whine) about Westerners who refuse to kiss the ass of disaffected indigenous minorities, who they stole land from centuries ago.

Tell me, S.A.M, are you Indians going to apologise to the Advisasis any time soon? Are you going to give them restitution for what you stole?

So good to see that you give your oppressed citizens some token representation, S.A.M. That ought to make up for the theft of their land, huh?

And what's truly hilarious here is how you try to justify the theft, instead of just admitting that it was unethical for you Indians to displace 10 million people. And then you turn around and whine (yes, that's right, whine) about Westerners who refuse to kiss the ass of disaffected indigenous minorities, who they stole land from centuries ago.

Tell me, S.A.M, are you Indians going to apologise to the Advisasis any time soon? Are you going to give them restitution for what you stole?

I'm guessing you are as clueless about the Adivasis as you are about everything else.

For one thing, they have equal representation. Unlike your settler country, we also happen to be Indians, just like them

And which tribe are you specifically referring to? Where?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scheduled_Tribes_in_India

have they asked?

for reparations that is

S.A.M:

I'm guessing you are as clueless about the Adivasis as you are about everything else.


Personal attacks, S.A.M? Does living in an exceptionally violent society result in such a disregard for common courtesy?


For one thing, they have equal representation


Which apparently means jack shit in reality, huh?

http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Dalit-tri...03/adivasi.htm


They are at the lowest point in every socioeconomic indicator. Today the majority of the population regards them as primitive and aims at decimating them as peoples or at best integrating them with the mainstream at the lowest rung in the ladder. This is especially so with the rise of the fascist Hindutva forces.



And which tribe are you specifically referring to? Where?


Red herring. No doubt if I were to ask the same question in response to your criticism of British/Australian mistreatment of aboriginals, you'd accuse me of obfuscating the issue.

Yeah, we're trying to teach them democracy, a la NATO. :rolleyes:

By wholesale slaughter as they cross the border? I don't think NATO's tried that yet.

The thing about India (along with others) is, such an old civilization, with documented 'enlightenments' can still struggle with these very basic issues affecting such a high proportion of their own population.

What exactly is their excuse for all that is wrong within their borders? 3,000 years and still widows are deprived of property? Fighting war after war for much longer than the USA and still their armies raping young girls? 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act!! I cant believe it took them that long to realize there was a problem with this behavior!

68,160 complaints were filed against the police! So anyone willing to guess how many went unreported that year?

What exactly is the excuse for this rampant uncivilized behavior of people in India, people who have had thousands of years to get their acts together?

As far as the suggested higher standard for the USA? Why? Are we not all equal? Are you (not directed at any one person) implying that India's people are incapable of meeting basic human standards or incapable of applying basic human rights equally?

milkweed:

The thing about India (along with others) is, such an old civilization, with documented 'enlightenments' can still struggle with these very basic issues affecting such a high proportion of their own population.


My thoughts exactly. Countries such as America and Australia have only been around for, what, a few centuries? And they appear to have progressed further than countries that were established millenia ago.

decadence
abandonment

facets of declining civs

disorders
disfunctional

facets of dying populations

fools
enjoy yours while you can

y
..

have they asked?

The ones displaced by dams have, the Narmada Valley Project has been a long contentious issue due to possible flooding of some regions.

By wholesale slaughter as they cross the border? I don't think NATO's tried that yet.

Lemme guess, we don't do body counts in Afghanistan either.

I could not read the whole post, that stuff makes me sad.

The thing about India (along with others) is, such an old civilization, with documented 'enlightenments' can still struggle with these very basic issues affecting such a high proportion of their own population.

What exactly is their excuse for all that is wrong within their borders? 3,000 years and still widows are deprived of property? Fighting war after war for much longer than the USA and still their armies raping young girls? 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act!! I cant believe it took them that long to realize there was a problem with this behavior!

68,160 complaints were filed against the police! So anyone willing to guess how many went unreported that year?

What exactly is the excuse for this rampant uncivilized behavior of people in India, people who have had thousands of years to get their acts together?

As far as the suggested higher standard for the USA? Why? Are we not all equal? Are you (not directed at any one person) implying that India's people are incapable of meeting basic human standards or incapable of applying basic human rights equally?

200 years of colonialism and slavery can have a wide ranging impact on the psyche, economics and social standing of a country. Add a partition of the country and less than 12% literacy, I would say we have made excellent strides in 60 years.

The ones displaced by dams have, the Narmada Valley Project has been a long contentious issue due to possible flooding of some regions.



hmm
standard op procedure for that

displaced and dispossessed peoples
making reparations

i see infinite regress
well almost

a fair shake is practical
outrageous demands>a low flyover

200 years of colonialism and slavery can have a wide ranging impact on the psyche, economics and social standing of a country. Add a partition of the country and less than 12% literacy, I would say we have made excellent strides in 60 years.
Did the English pretty much just leave when India became independent? Or did many of them remain in India and become part of the new nation? How are the English regarded today in India?

S.A.M:


Personal attacks, S.A.M? Does living in an exceptionally violent society result in such a disregard for common courtesy?



Which apparently means jack shit in reality, huh?

http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Dalit-tri...03/adivasi.htm
Red herring. No doubt if I were to ask the same question in response to your criticism of British/Australian mistreatment of aboriginals, you'd accuse me of obfuscating the issue.


The problem with the Adivasis is not opportunity, it is exploitation. The ones who benefit from the educational and occupational benefits, exploit the ones who are under them.

The best course is to continue to provide the opportunities. Sadly this would mean a loss of their local color, since many are devoted to their hills and vales and assimilation would mean that they would join the modern monochromatic generation. All in all though, considering none of them were educated 60 years ago, the fact that I know some who are flying airplanes from Bombay to New York is a big step in just a generation and a half.

And no, the question of which tribe is very significant. Those in the north, with little access to transport and communication and in preserved natural sanctuaries are relatively undisturbed, its the ones with dams and railway lines and highways near/through their isolated areas, who feel encroached upon.

200 years of colonialism and slavery can have a wide ranging impact on the psyche, economics and social standing of a country. Add a partition of the country and less than 12% literacy, I would say we have made excellent strides in 60 years.

nonsense
a dying civ sounds much more romantic

lets fornicate
hurry!!

hmm
standard op procedure for that

displaced and dispossessed peoples
making reparations

i see infinite regress
well almost

a fair shake is practical
outrageous demands>a low flyover

Yeah thats the problem; the government wants them to integrate, they want special treatment.

Did the English pretty much just leave when India became independent? Or did many of them remain in India and become part of the new nation? How are the English regarded today in India?

We tend to romanticise our past, so the English are well viewed today, although historically we are aware of the mass starvations, constant dehumanisation and humiliation under them.

But they did provide us with a backbone in terms of transport communications, the justice system and political system, so we look on them favorably.

The English basically up and left.

We do have some "born in India" like the American, Tom Alter. Who are more Indian than the Indians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Alter

nonsense
a dying civ sounds much more romantic

lets fornicate
hurry!!

That explains the second coming, I guess.

Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes.

Hey, it is ok to walk around naked. Guess you get used to it.

No one gets used to humiliation

The issues being discussed here such as the treatment of widows, caste system, etc are ingrained issues that pre-date colonialism and survive still and are the true source of India's issues of poverty, segregation, and religious strife and the host of ills rampant in India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India

Slavery was not introduced by Colonialism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Slave_System_in_Medieval_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_India

The issues being discussed here such as the treatment of widows, caste system, etc are ingrained issues that pre-date colonialism and survive still and are the true source of India's issues of poverty, segregation, and religious strife and the host of ills rampant in India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India

Slavery was not introduced by Colonialism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Slave_System_in_Medieval_India

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery_in_India

Umm no, the British, Portuguese French and Dutch did not come to India to relieve us of our poverty.

Assessment of India's pre-colonial economy is mostly qualitative, owing to the lack of quantitative information. One estimate puts the revenue of Akbar's Mughal Empire in 1600 at £17.5 million, in contrast with the total revenue of Great Britain in 1800, which totalled £16 million.[13] India, by the time of the arrival of the British, was a largely traditional agrarian economy with a dominant subsistence sector dependent on primitive technology. It existed alongside a competitively developed network of commerce, manufacturing and credit. After the fall of the Mughals and the rise of Maratha Empire, the Indian economy was plunged into a state of political instability due to internecine wars and conflicts

Colonial rule brought a major change in the taxation environment from revenue taxes to property taxes resulting in mass impoverishment and destitution of the great majority of farmers. It also created an institutional environment that, on paper, guaranteed property rights among the colonizers, encouraged free trade, and created a single currency with fixed exchange rates, standardized weights and measures, capital markets, a well developed system of railways and telegraphs, a civil service that aimed to be free from political interference, and a common-law, adversarial legal system.[15] India's colonisation by the British coincided with major changes in the world economy—industrialisation, and significant growth in production and trade. However, at the end of colonial rule, India inherited an economy that was one of the poorest in the developing world,[16] with industrial development stalled, agriculture unable to feed a rapidly growing population, one of the world's lowest life expectancies, and low rates of literacy.

Sam, making excuses will not change anything. THESE ARE YOU PEOPLE.

Sam, making excuses will not change anything. THESE ARE YOU PEOPLE.

Umm yes, that is why we are doing our best to make sure they are not left behind, as a cursory glance at any budget since independence will indicate.

Oh really? I think American business has given India a rosier outlook.

Oh really? I think American business has given India a rosier outlook.

Yeah, we're always happy to work for lower wages.:p

Yeah, we're always happy to work for lower wages.:p

You mean comparatively lower:p Besides i really think the people getting the new buisnesses should be in charge of doing the right thing and Idia got some sweet jobs from U.S (maybe elsewhere, i dont know) so that may account for overall sense of well being you describe.

y the time of the arrival of the British, was a largely traditional agrarian economy with a dominant subsistence sector dependent on primitive technology.

It also created an institutional environment that, on paper, guaranteed property rights among the colonizers, encouraged free trade, and created a single currency with fixed exchange rates, standardized weights and measures, capital markets, a well developed system of railways and telegraphs, a civil service that aimed to be free from political interference, and a common-law, adversarial legal system.

However, at the end of colonial rule, India inherited an economy that was one of the poorest in the developing world, with industrial development stalled, agriculture unable to feed a rapidly growing population, one of the world's lowest life expectancies, and low rates of literacy.


So your point is that without the support of the Brits, India collapsed back into its orginal substance lifestyle? Cant teach an old dog new tricks? Is that the moral of your story?

You mean comparatively lower:p Besides i really think the people getting the new buisnesses should be in charge of doing the right thing and Idia got some sweet jobs from U.S (maybe elsewhere, i dont know) so that may account for overall sense of well being you describe.

What sense of well being?

So your point is that without the support of the Brits, India collapsed back into its orginal substance lifestyle? Cant teach an old dog new tricks? Is that the moral of your story?

Considering that the colonialists are still using structural adjustments to maintain their economy, I think the shoe is rather on the other foot, they apparently cannot survive without military force to maintain themselves; unfortunately such societies have historically short lifespans.:)

Considering that the colonialists are still using structural adjustments to maintain their economy, I think the shoe is rather on the other foot, they apparently cannot survive without military force to maintain themselves; unfortunately such societies have historically short lifespans.:)

But were not talking about your perception of the USA here. This thread is about the current situation in INDIA and the horrible way people have to survive in a country that has had 3000 years to get it together.

What have you done for widows in India lately? Have you written one letter to the powers that be expressing how things must be changed? Have you spouted off any suggestions for change within your own borders to relieve the massive suffering being endured by your fellow citizens? You havent presented a single answer to any of the issues revolving around India's current situation and the topics presented here within this thread yet. So far your offerings have revolved around the tired "its Someone Elses Fault".

Yeah thats the problem; the government wants them to integrate, they want special treatment.[/url]

the devil is in the details my princess

my natural civic inclinations have to be tempered when dealing with local reps
for instance, eminent domain is invoked to steal and sell......to walmart

ja
special treatment>lemme keep whats mine please/find a goddamn reasonable justification for land grabs

fuck!!!!!!!!!!

But were not talking about your perception of the USA here. This thread is about the current situation in INDIA and the horrible way people have to survive in a country that has had 3000 years to get it together.

What have you done for widows in India lately? Have you written one letter to the powers that be expressing how things must be changed? Have you spouted off any suggestions for change within your own borders to relieve the massive suffering being endured by your fellow citizens? You havent presented a single answer to any of the issues revolving around India's current situation and the topics presented here within this thread yet. So far your offerings have revolved around the tired "its Someone Elses Fault".

You presume to assume 3000 years of Indian history from your myopic view of the world?

India has seen several civilisations come and go; its very persistence is testimony to the fact that its society is pluralistic enough to adapt and grow. We've seen the last 3000, we'll probably see the next 10 as well. You need not worry about us. :)

But were not talking about your perception of the USA here. This thread is about the current situation in INDIA and the horrible way people have to survive in a country that has had 3000 years to get it together.

What have you done for widows in India lately? Have you written one letter to the powers that be expressing how things must be changed? Have you spouted off any suggestions for change within your own borders to relieve the massive suffering being endured by your fellow citizens? You havent presented a single answer to any of the issues revolving around India's current situation and the topics presented here within this thread yet. So far your offerings have revolved around the tired "its Someone Elses Fault".


fool
gimme an issue
any issue
all of em

i'll find a rash of ngo's fer yer ass

I see.

You HAVENT any answers for the rot within the borders of India.

y the time of the arrival of the British, was a largely traditional agrarian economy with a dominant subsistence sector dependent on primitive technology.

It also created an institutional environment that, on paper, guaranteed property rights among the colonizers, encouraged free trade, and created a single currency with fixed exchange rates, standardized weights and measures, capital markets, a well developed system of railways and telegraphs, a civil service that aimed to be free from political interference, and a common-law, adversarial legal system.

However, at the end of colonial rule, India inherited an economy that was one of the poorest in the developing world, with industrial development stalled, agriculture unable to feed a rapidly growing population, one of the world's lowest life expectancies, and low rates of literacy.

This is suppose to excuse all of the atrocities, starvation, segregation, bigotry, and racism?

India has been independent for 60 years, and these practices still are on going, SpAM wants to tout India's Great Economy, great for who? not the Dalits it seems, or any of the other lower classes, 3000 lower caste.

fool
gimme an issue
any issue
all of em

i'll find a rash of ngo's fer yer ass

Heh, why bother? Is anyone here really interested in the widows and Dalits of India? Like the gays in Iran, they just make a good supremacist issue :p

Heh, why bother? Is anyone here really interested in the widows and Dalits of India? Like the gays in Iran, they just make a good supremacist issue :p

Well we dont know nearly as much as YOU do...but of course we would never know because guess it is all just a minor issue to you. It is not supremecist to care about all your people instead of a chosen few.;)

I see.

You HAVENT any answers for the rot within the borders of India.

The answers? You mean like a magic wand that will make them all go away?

They don't exist.

However, we have the third largest economy; an excellent growth rate, poverty faction slowly decreasing by the day, education getting better and better (our undergrad is already better than the West, now we're improving our grad); the largest section of young population in the world.

Ask me again in 20 years.:)

The answers? You mean like a magic wand that will make them all go away?

They don't exist.

However, we have the third largest economy; an excellent growth rate, poverty faction slowly by the day, education getting better and better (our undergrad is already better than the West, now we're improving our grad); the largest section of young population in the world.

Ask me again in 20 years.:)

But you have to think that U.S business has been the factor.:shrug:

But you have to think that U.S business has been the factor.:shrug:

Sure, but the fact that we kept the economy closed for many years until our local market could compete is also a factor that has paid long term dividends.

I see.

You HAVENT any answers for the rot within the borders of India.

answers? who does?
bring down that goalpost

besides
i wanna frolic on the ashes of india
mother india that is

bring on the rot


:)

answers? who does?
bring down that goalpost

besides
i wanna frolic on the ashes of india
mother india that is

bring on the rot


:)

May leeches infest your tuberose.:bugeye:

Sure, but the fact that we kept the economy closed for many years until our local market could compete is also a factor that has paid long term dividends.

OR maybe that is because no one wanted to go there?

The answers? You mean like a magic wand that will make them all go away?

They don't exist.

However, we have the third largest economy; an excellent growth rate, poverty faction slowly decreasing by the day, education getting better and better (our undergrad is already better than the West, now we're improving our grad); the largest section of young population in the world.

Ask me again in 20 years.:)

Ok. So In 20 years you will have what? What do you imagine for India as its population swells to nearly 2 billion when it cannot feed/care for its own now?

Ouch

Ok. So In 20 years you will have what? What do you imagine for India as its population swells to nearly 2 billion when it cannot feed/care for its own now?

Oh don't worry, you guys will have decently finished each other off to make space for us.

S.A.M:

However, we have the third largest economy


Which ignores the inequity regarding the distribution of said wealth. And an atrocious record of human rights abuses. Given that you always whine about U.S and Australian human rights abuses, and never praise their booming economies, I'm going to assume that the humanitarian aspects of a nation are your higher priority.


poverty faction slowly by the day, education getting better and better


Mistreatment of indigenous tribesmen, systematic brutality by Indian police and armed forces, overt discrimination against lower castes of Hindus, a long-standing history of acts of aggression against neighbouring countries, a stockpile of nuclear weapons, etc etc. I could go on and on. The fact that things may be 'getting better' (slowly) doesn't change the fact that India is in more shit than any Western country.

What's your excuse, S.A.M? Western interference? Excessive taxation?

Hey, I mean, it's not like Western countries whose police and soldiers don't currently engage in systematic rape and torture have ever suffered from interference and/or occupation by foreign powers, and excessive taxation, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_France_during_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years'_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/poland.htm

S.A.M:


And an atrocious record of human rights abuses. Given that you always whine about U.S and Australian human rights abuses, and never praise their booming economies, I'm going to assume that the humanitarian aspects of a nation take higher priority with you.



Mistreatment of indigenous tribesmen, systematic brutality by Indian police and armed forces, overt discrimination against lower castes of Hindus, a long-standing history of acts of aggression against neighbouring countries, a stockpile of nuclear weapons, etc etc. I could go on and on. The fact that things may be 'getting better' (slowly) doesn't change the fact that India is in more shit than any Western country.

What's your excuse, S.A.M? Western interference? Excessive taxation?

Hey, I mean, it's not like Western countries whose police and soldiers don't currently engage in systematic rape and torture have ever suffered from interference and/or occupation by foreign powers, and excessive taxation, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_France_during_World_War_II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years'_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/poland.htm

Mostly terrible poverty and illiteracy on independence. A huge population. 200 years of colonisation to get over. And it has improved, but we have a ways to go yet.

S.A.M:

Mostly terrible poverty and illiteracy on independence.


Poland had the exact same problem after gaining independence! Hell, Poland ceased to exist for 100 years when it was partitioned between Austria, Prussia and Russia. Polish citizens were delegated to the role of 'unskilled, uneducated labourers', and trust me, this didn't change under Nazi or Soviet occupation.

Poland has been raped by the partitions, then by Nazi rule, then by Soviet rule. Remember that the Soviets are renowned for leaving their formerly occupied territories with a ruined economy. The wonders of Communism.

But despite all this, I have yet to hear of Poland's police and soldiers engaging in systematic torture and rape in this day and age. I have yet to hear of them making a habit out of throwing faeces at their minorities, either.

Again, what's your excuse, S.A.M? Why is it that Poland, which ceased to exist at one period in history, and then suffered under two barbaric regimes in recent history, has a cleaner record regarding human rights than India?

S.A.M:


The Polish had the exact same problem after gaining independence! Hell, Poland ceased to exist for 100 years when it was partitioned between Austria, Prussia and Russia. Polish citizens were delegated to the role of 'unskilled, uneducated labourers', and trust me, this didn't change under Nazi or Soviet occupation.

Poland has been raped by the partitions, then by Nazi rule, then by Soviet rule. Remember that the Soviets are renowned for leaving their formerly occupied territories with a ruined economy. The wonders of Communism.

But despite all this, I have yet to hear of Poland's police and soldiers engaging in systematic torture and rape in this day and age. I have yet to hear of them throwing faeces at their minorities, either.

Again, what's your excuse, S.A.M? Why is it that Poland, which ceased to exist at one period in history, and then suffered under two barbaric regimes in recent history, has a cleaner record regarding human rights than India?

Good for Poland. Unfortunately India is not Poland. It was nice of them to get rid of everyone but the Catholics.

Good for Poland. Unfortunately India is not Poland.

No, India isn't Poland .....India is much worse than Poland!!!

Baron Max

No, India isn't Poland .....India is much worse than Poland!!!

Baron Max

Yeah, well I hear all the Poles are leaving Poland, so you might want to move there.

Mostly terrible poverty and illiteracy on independence. A huge population. 200 years of colonisation to get over.

So you're blaming it all on someone else, huh, Sam? Now think about it, isn't that just like all Muslims of the world?

And it has improved, but we have a ways to go yet.

And you'll never get there on your own!! The population growth alone will overwhelm India in only a shor time ..if it's not fully overwhelmed now.

Baron Max

Yeah, well I hear all the Poles are leaving Poland, so you might want to move there.

I'd move to Poland in a heartbeat over moving to the damned India!!

Baron Max

So you're blaming it all on someone else, huh, Sam? Now think about it, isn't that just like all Muslims of the world?



And you'll never get there on your own!! The population growth alone will overwhelm India in only a shor time ..if it's not fully overwhelmed now.

Baron Max

There's lots of empty space in the US :D

There's lots of empty space in the US

Mexicans are takiing it all now, you Indians are too late.

Baron Max

S.A.M:

Good for Poland.


I know. Considering that Poland has also had relatively recent territorial disputes, they seem to conduct themselves with a bit more dignity than India.


Unfortunately India is not Poland.


A pity. I feel your pain.


It was nice of them to get rid of everyone but the Catholics.


'Gotten rid of'? The German Protestants were kicked out of Poland by the Allies (for obvious reasons), the Jews all went to Israel, and Ukraine established an independent state. Even so, that was 50 years ago. We're talking about recent abuses of human rights, S.A.M. But by all means, if you want to go that far back, I'm more than willing to list the human rights abuses committed by Indian society over the past 50 years! I have no doubt that I could fill several sets of encyclopaedias with the Indian society's human rights abuses over the past 50 years. :D

Anyway, while today's Polish population is predominantly Catholic, it does host religious minorities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland#Ethnicity_and_religion

Religious minorities include Polish Orthodox (1.3% or about 509,500), Jehovah’s Witnesses (0.3% or about 123,034), Eastern Catholics (0.2%), Lutherans (0.2%), and smaller minorities of Mariavites, Polish Catholics, Pentecostals, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jews, Muslims (including the Tatars of Białystok) and various Protestants (about 86,880 in the largest Evangelical-Augsburg Church, plus about as many in smaller churches).


And unlike India, Poland doesn't treat it's religious minorities like shit. And they certainly don't make a habit of throwing shit at them.

Baron:

I'd move to Poland in a heartbeat over moving to the damned India!!


Yeah, just for fun, try a thought experiment. Let's say that you have a Sikh boat refugee, and the captain tells you that he will deliver you to either India, or Poland. I wonder which country the Sikh will be more likely to choose as their adopted homeland?

S.A.M:

Originally Posted by S.A.M.
There's lots of empty space in the US


Yeah. Isn't it funny how literally millions of Indians migrate from their utopia of a country to 'racist, abusive Western shitholes' like Australia, the U.S.A, and the U.K?

Yeah. Isn't it funny how literally millions of Indians migrate from their utopia of a country to 'racist, abusive Western shitholes' like Australia, the U.S.A, and the U.K?

You have to remember that Sam is one of the few rich Indians, so has a nice home, running water, plenty of food, probably servants doing all the work, while Sam sits at the computer all day posting on sciforums.

Baron Max

Looks like Westerners aren't the only folks who have a penchant for displacing indigenous populations!

I think this might be the saddest thing I've read in a while :eek:

(our undergrad is already better than the West, now we're improving our grad)


Can you elaborate on this? Just curious (a bit worried about job competition when I graduate actually ;))

I am sick of people always blaming the US for all the worlds ills. So, under the glass houses doctrine, let us discuss some of the atrocities committed by the great nation of India.


India was chosen at random, I don't doubt :p At least S.A.M. isn't in support of these things, which is one of the reasons the analogy doesn't work.

western civ?
sounds like a jolly good idea

western civ?
sounds like a jolly good idea

:confused:

standalone fella

Can you elaborate on this? Just curious (a bit worried about job competition when I graduate actually ;))

Most of our money on education has so far been spent in school (not university). Now we are privatising higher education and opening it up for foreign investment, so I'm looking forward to what will happen in the next decade.:)

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/644517.cms

India was chosen at random, I don't doubt :p At least S.A.M. isn't in support of these things, which is one of the reasons the analogy doesn't work.

That is something many people here fail to understand. Its not an us vs them, I hate the crap everywhere.:p

Most of our money on education has so far been spent in school (not university). Now we are privatising higher education and opening it up for foreign investment, so I'm looking forward to what will happen in the next decade.:)

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/644517.cms

I'm unfamiliar with the idea of universities of one country entering another on a large scale. Would this mean that the foreign universities, like the ones mentioned in the article, would be opening up an Indian campus still under the same group?

Sounds similar to what China started on a few years ago. They are planning on having 50 new "harvard level" universities, I forget by when, and are buying the type of staff that could make it happen. Looks like in 10-20 years there are going to be a lot more educated people in the world : o

western civ?
sounds like a jolly good idea

Hey you stole this from Mahatma Gandhi, copyright infringement!

Ah, now I get it (w/ help from you and google). :p

India was chosen at random, I don't doubt :p At least S.A.M. isn't in support of these things, which is one of the reasons the analogy doesn't work.
The analogy is perfect. People always take relatively minor abuses or isolated incidents with some connection to the US and blow it all out of proportion. Meanwhile, horrific abuses are going on in these people's own countries to their own citizens, but we generally don't hear squat about them.

Regarding my support for abuses, that's crap. I do give the military wide latitude in fighting a war. But I certainly wouldn't support the atrocities routinely commited by the Indian army were they commited by the US army.

i demand you dalits stop polluting this thread
foul beasts!
away i say

The analogy is perfect. People always take relatively minor abuses or isolated incidents with some connection to the US and blow it all out of proportion. Meanwhile, horrific abuses are going on in these people's own countries to their own citizens, but we generally don't hear squat about them.

We hear about other countries, like Myanmar, Sudan, various places in the Middle-East... The US is more popular for a lot of understandable reasons. As for people taking "relatively minor abuses or isolated incidents with some connection to the US"...I think we disagree on what is minor.


Regarding my support for abuses, that's crap. I do give the military wide latitude in fighting a war. But I certainly wouldn't support the atrocities routinely commited by the Indian army were they commited by the US army.

I'm not personally aware of your stance on everything, though I know you're a conservative, and I can make rough guesses. So I didn't mean specifically you. But when you bring up something that India was wrong in, S.A.M. says "that's terrible" and applies reasoning, which is a big contrast to some certain posts in the "fight terrorism with terrorism" thread, for one of countless examples.

Every countries have its good and bad side. As for India, whatever the bad side is, I like
its rich culture (the dance, the festival) and the people. I found them friendly and
humble. They are hard working and also good at IT (information technology).

The analogy is perfect. People always take relatively minor abuses or isolated incidents with some connection to the US and blow it all out of proportion. Meanwhile, horrific abuses are going on in these people's own countries to their own citizens, but we generally don't hear squat about them.

Regarding my support for abuses, that's crap. I do give the military wide latitude in fighting a war. But I certainly wouldn't support the atrocities routinely commited by the Indian army were they commited by the US army.

Assuming you ever heard what they were
Our advantage in India is that the media is truly a watchdog of the government. In the US, its a mouthpiece. There is a lot of difference in what is considered news.

Our advantage in India is that the media is truly a watchdog of the government.

Then why is such atrocities never mentioned in the world press? And, most of all, how can you know about all of the Indian atrocities, yet come here and complain about anything and everything about happenings in America or Israel? Hypocritical?

In the US, its a mouthpiece. There is a lot of difference in what is considered news.

If the US press is a government mouthpiece, then how could you possibly hear about all those government problems?

Sam, you're being ridiculous in the extreme! In the US, the press even goes so far as to invent, via speculation, about government abuses.

Sam, in this tread, you've shown, proven, yourself to be a fuckin' hypocrite in the extreme. You happily complain about the US, yet you're blind to the horrors of India and Iran and the Middle East ...or anywhere that's Muslim dominated.

Hypocrite!!

Baron Max

Then why is such atrocities never mentioned in the world press? And, most of all, how can you know about all of the Indian atrocities, yet come here and complain about anything and everything about happenings in America or Israel? Hypocritical?



If the US press is a government mouthpiece, then how could you possibly hear about all those government problems?

Sam, you're being ridiculous in the extreme! In the US, the press even goes so far as to invent, via speculation, about government abuses.

Sam, in this tread, you've shown, proven, yourself to be a fuckin' hypocrite in the extreme. You happily complain about the US, yet you're blind to the horrors of India and Iran and the Middle East ...or anywhere that's Muslim dominated.

Hypocrite!!

Baron Max

The people who would want to investigate the truth of any matter in the US would be termed as either terrorists supporters or conspiracy theorists.

Its a form of labeling that effectively ensures:
1. they are not taken seriously
2. their POV is suppressed

How do we know? Because of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_%28United_States%29).

You've read Indian newspapers Baron, what do you think of them?

S.A.M:

The people who would want to investigate the truth of any matter in the US would be termed as either terrorists supporters or conspiracy theorists.


And people in India who want to investigate human rights abuses have the shit beaten out of them!

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ind-summary-eng


Human rights defenders

Human rights defenders in many parts of the country were harassed and attacked.
On 21 August at least 13 members of the Association for Protection of Democratic Rights (APDR) were attacked in Greater Kolkata, West Bengal, allegedly by supporters of the ruling political party. A group of up to 60 people attacked a peaceful meeting, kicking and beating the participants. Although the police station was less than 50m away, the police reportedly failed to assist or protect the APDR members until the attackers dispersed several hours later. Several of the victims required hospital treatment for serious injuries.

Oh don't worry, you guys will have decently finished each other off to make space for us.

First, who is "you guys"?

Second, since independence (60 years) the Republic of India has fought three wars and one major incursion battle with Pakistan and one border war with China.

The Indian military today ranks as the world's third largest after the USA and China in terms of troops. Over a million strong, the paramilitary unit of the Republic of India is the world's largest and most elite paramilitary force. Eager to portray itself as a potential superpower, India began an intense phase of modernization and upgradation of its armed forces in the late 1990s.

Apart from diverting resources towards indigenously manufacturing military equipment, the Indian Government is also focusing on collaborating with other countries to develop cutting-edge military technology and weapons.

In 2004, India purchased US$ 5.7 billion worth of military equipment from other countries, making it the developing world's leading arms-purchaser.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_India

Maybe the 'you guys' is closer to home than you imagine.

The people who would want to investigate the truth of any matter in the US would be termed as either terrorists supporters or conspiracy theorists.

...LOL! Sam, there are more investigative reporters in the USA than anywhere else on Earth! And worse, they don't just investigate, they also spew forth all kinds of speculation and accusations without any form of legal controls.

To make a claim that the US news media is controlled by the government is so farfetched as to be ridiculous and laughable.

You've read Indian newspapers Baron, what do you think of them?

What I find interesting is the total lack of follow-up in Indian newspapers. They might report (mildly!) on some police problems, but that's the end of it. there's not follow-up investigations, there's no demands that the government do something, and the issue is simply dropped, ignored. ...much like you do, Sam. You ignore the problems in India, but rant and rave about any little thing that happens in the USA. You're horrified by the use of tazers, yet you turn a bliind eye to Indian police killing people!

Hippo-fuckin'-critter.

Baron Max

To make a claim that the US news media is controlled by the government is so farfetched as to be ridiculous and laughable.

I agree 100%. If there's one thing we have beyond any doubt, it's a free press.

If you look at most white house press conferences from 01-03 you have to conclude that our press isn't very free, or they are so pathetic they might as well not be free.

First, who is "you guys"?

Second, since independence (60 years) the Republic of India has fought three wars and one major incursion battle with Pakistan and one border war with China.

The Indian military today ranks as the world's third largest after the USA and China in terms of troops. Over a million strong, the paramilitary unit of the Republic of India is the world's largest and most elite paramilitary force. Eager to portray itself as a potential superpower, India began an intense phase of modernization and upgradation of its armed forces in the late 1990s.

Apart from diverting resources towards indigenously manufacturing military equipment, the Indian Government is also focusing on collaborating with other countries to develop cutting-edge military technology and weapons.

In 2004, India purchased US$ 5.7 billion worth of military equipment from other countries, making it the developing world's leading arms-purchaser.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_India

Maybe the 'you guys' is closer to home than you imagine.

How many preemptive or first strikes?

I agree 100%. If there's one thing we have beyond any doubt, it's a free press.

I disagree 110% :p

The press in the US is absolutely dismal in towing one party line or another. There is absolutely nil independent reporting.

S.A.M:


And people in India who want to investigate human rights abuses have the shit beaten out of them!

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ind-summary-eng

Got reported, did it not?

The press in the US is absolutely dismal in towing one party line or another. There is absolutely nil independent reporting.

Wow, Sam, you're really in a sad, sad state of denial.

But I shouldn't be surprised .....that's exactly the state you use when anyone mentions the atrocities in India. If you close your eyes to it, Sam, it'll all go away, huh? ...just like when you were a little kid? ...just deny it and pretend it doesn't exist and everything is just fine and dandy, huh? :D

Baron Max

Got reported, did it not?

And what's the Indians doing about it, Sam? Reporting something is not the same as finding it and fixing it.

And that's exactly waht I mentioned earlier about the Indian newspapers ....they might report of Indian police killing people, but that's usually the end of it, and nothing is done about it .....and people forget it.

Baron Max

Wow, Sam, you're really in a sad, sad state of denial.

But I shouldn't be surprised .....that's exactly the state you use when anyone mentions the atrocities in India. If you close your eyes to it, Sam, it'll all go away, huh? ...just like when you were a little kid? ...just deny it and pretend it doesn't exist and everything is just fine and dandy, huh? :D

Baron Max

Baron, when the FOI reports come out, its clear that reporters have done very little reporting of reality.

Look at the reports out of Iraq. Compare the US and nonUS media.

And what's the Indians doing about it, Sam? Reporting something is not the same as finding it and fixing it.

And that's exactly waht I mentioned earlier about the Indian newspapers ....they might report of Indian police killing people, but that's usually the end of it, and nothing is done about it .....and people forget it.

Baron Max

You're confusing the Indian people with the Americans, we don't have attention deficit disorder there.

I disagree 110% :p

The press in the US is absolutely dismal in towing one party line or another. There is absolutely nil independent reporting.
If the press if dismal, it's due to lazyness, not government oppression.

You're confusing the Indian people with the Americans, we don't have attention deficit disorder there.

Yeah, perhaps, .....but Indians still have diseases that American eradicated a hundred years ago! Most Indians don't have fresh water or sanitary sewers or adequate education. Indians are so damned poor that the poorest American would seem like a rich man to them.

Hmm, on second thought, ...nope, I'm not confusing the Indians at all. But you, Sam, are blinded by prejudice and hatred to the point that you can't even see the problems in your own country.

Baron Max

Yeah, perhaps, .....but Indians still have diseases that American eradicated a hundred years ago! Most Indians don't have fresh water or sanitary sewers or adequate education. Indians are so damned poor that the poorest American would seem like a rich man to them.

Hmm, on second thought, ...nope, I'm not confusing the Indians at all. But you, Sam, are blinded by prejudice and hatred to the point that you can't even see the problems in your own country.

Baron Max

Hmm so all we have to do is expose you to our diseases? Bet your immunity is really low:D

If the press if dismal, it's due to lazyness, not government oppression.

Quite possible. The news of the hour is always something ridiculously irrelevant.

S.A.M, i think members are telling you to take a more compassionate look at what is happening in your back yard. And there are things you can do to help these people.

S.A.M, i think members are telling you to take a more compassionate look at what is happening in your back yard. And there are things you can do to help these people.

I'm telling members they need to stop throwing crap into our backyard; so we can get on with helping these people.:p

S.A.M, i think members are telling you to take a more compassionate look at what is happening in your back yard.

Has it occurred to you guys that S.A.M. may not actually be from India, and that this is all a ruse he enjoys pulling over on you guys? I have yet to hear S.A.M. evince any attitudes, perspectives, figures of speech or basic knowledge that are specific to India. On the contrary, S.A.M.'s posts are uniformly indistinguishable from the rest of SciForums (which we know to be overwhelmingly dominated by white males from Australia, Canada, UK and USA).

Unless, of course, there's some definitive evidence I'm not aware of?

Has it occurred to you guys that S.A.M. may not actually be from India, and that this is all a ruse he enjoys pulling over on you guys? I have yet to hear S.A.M. evince any attitudes, perspectives, figures of speech or basic knowledge that are specific to India. On the contrary, S.A.M.'s posts are uniformly indistinguishable from the rest of SciForums (which we know to be overwhelmingly dominated by white males from Australia, Canada, UK and USA).

Unless, of course, there's some definitive evidence I'm not aware of?

:eek:

I sound like a Caucasian westerner?

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/smilies/suicide3.gif

:eek:

I sound like a Caucasian westerner?

Yes; or at least a westerner anyway. Moreover, there's also the question of why an Indian would dedicate so much time to posting screeds about America on a message board consisting almost entirely of Caucasian westerners.

Yes; or at least a westerner anyway. Moreover, there's also the question of why an Indian would dedicate so much time to posting screeds about America on a message board consisting almost entirely of Caucasian westerners.

do you know how many Indians are on this forum?:p

do you know how many Indians are on this forum?:p

I don't, although I'd be surprised if it's a significant number. Do you know, or was that a rhetorical question?

Why was this moved? Most of the stuff in this thread is going on right now.

:eek:

I sound like a Caucasian westerner?

http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-default/images/smilies/suicide3.gif

Huh. That was kind of racist.

madan:

Why was this moved?


Criticism of non-Western countries is forbidden by the mod squad.

Move along, citizen!

Huh. That was kind of racist.

That was par for the course.

Sock:

That was par for the course.


So is an infraction for any racist comments. Oh, wait...

Assuming you ever heard what they were
Our advantage in India is that the media is truly a watchdog of the government. In the US, its a mouthpiece. There is a lot of difference in what is considered news.

Oh yeah a watchdog in India and U.S a mouthpiece...thats right:D How could everyone be so stupid?

Guess threads about india go right into the cesspool.

I'm telling members they need to stop throwing crap into our backyard; so we can get on with helping these people.:p

Who is throwing crap in your back yard?:(

Who is throwing crap in your back yard?:(

Any idea how the instability in the region translates to bombings in India?

We have a regular spate of bomb attacks.:rolleyes:
http://www.google.com/search?q=bomb+blast+India&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Huh. That was kind of racist.

Saying I couldn't be Indian because I sounded white and Western is what, exactly?

Let me guess: a compliment?

You had a suicide animation expressing your reaction to someone assuming you were Caucasian. Nice.

Hey, you know it was funny :p

Though maybe it was the insinuation of being a Westerner.

Incidentally, in the US most classifications of Indian race are caucasian. That's what one of my teachers said anyway... prevented him from getting minority benefits. He had a reaction similar to S.A.M. :p

I probably shouldn't have said that though. Now the usual crowd will pop up and claim that the Harappan civilization was made by white people, and the dark skinned people there were illegal immigrants who showed up later and out bred the whites.

Saying I couldn't be Indian because I sounded white and Western is what, exactly?

Let me guess: a compliment?

Didn't say you couldn't be. Just said that you don't write any differently than the white westerners around here, nor have I heard you display any knowledge that any westerner with a modicum of interest in India wouldn't know. These are simple statements of fact; if you dislike the prospect of being linguistically indistinguishable from those groups, it's up to you to do something about it. Moreover, you are inconsistent in your positional references with respect to India (sometimes it's "here," other times it's "there.")

Another theory would be that you are indeed of South Asian descent, but have lived all/most of your life in the West. This would account for all of the behavior exhibited.

This is so sad and now that S.A.M moved it to the cesspool it will be hidden and nothing will change.

Incidentally, in the US most classifications of Indian race are caucasian. That's what one of my teachers said anyway... prevented him from getting minority benefits.

No, that classification system went out many decades ago. Not that there are any "minority benefits" to speak of for Asians in the United States. Since they're over-represented in the colleges and universities, affirmative action policies typically result in the *exclusion* of Asian students in favor of black, hispanic and native applicants. Interestingly, white acceptance rates are not affected by affirmative action.

You had a suicide animation expressing your reaction to someone assuming you were Caucasian. Nice.

I would hate to be mistaken for a gora; I am a shuddh bharatiya. :p

Didn't say you couldn't be. Just said that you don't write any differently than the white westerners around here, nor have I heard you display any knowledge that any westerner with a modicum of interest in India wouldn't know. These are simple statements of fact; if you dislike the prospect of being linguistically indistinguishable from those groups, it's up to you to do something about it. Moreover, you are inconsistent in your positional references with respect to India (sometimes it's "here," other times it's "there.")

Another theory would be that you are indeed of South Asian descent, but have lived all/most of your life in the West. This would account for all of the behavior exhibited.

Well I have spent almost almost 29 years in India, 5 in the Middle East and the rest in the US. I am 37. :p

I am a pretty typical Mumbaikar.

And by the way, people do travel, you know. Phir bhi dil hai Hindustani. ;)

Hey, you know it was funny :p

Though maybe it was the insinuation of being a Westerner.

Incidentally, in the US most classifications of Indian race are caucasian. That's what one of my teachers said anyway... prevented him from getting minority benefits. He had a reaction similar to S.A.M. :p


Hahahah fucking multicultural "karma"

Well I have spent almost almost 29 years in India, 5 in the Middle East and the rest in the US. I am 37. :p

I am a pretty typical Mumbaikar.

And by the way, people do travel, you know. Phir bhi dil hai Hindustani. ;)

Oh snap... which languages do you speak? I've been trying to learn some Malayalam, but it's difficult without a Roman script for me to work from.

Oh snap... which languages do you speak? I've been trying to learn some Malayalam, but it's difficult without a Roman script for me to work from.

I'm best in Hindi and Urdu. I understand Gujrati and Marathi perfectly, but I'm out of practice in the speaking. Some rudimentary Arabic

In Malayalam, I can say "yenake Malayalam ariyille" :D

And numbers: onn, rand, moon, naal, anj, aar, eezh, etta, onpatth, patth:D

I'm best in Hindi and Urdu. I understand Gujrati and Marathi perfectly, but I'm out of practice in the speaking. Some rudimentary Arabic

In Malayalam, I can say "yenake Malayalam ariyille" :D

And numbers: onn, rand, moon, naal, anj, aar, eezh, etta, onpatth, patth:D

Well, that's farther than I've gotten so far anyway...

Well, that's farther than I've gotten so far anyway...

Well I used to manage hostel food supplies for Malayali nurses. Rand meen, chechi! .:D

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1580026&posted=1#post1580026
Well I used to manage hostel food supplies for Malayali nurses. Rand meen, chechi! .:D

That link seems to point to this very post... ?

Also, did you just call me "sister?"

Uh, don't know how that link came there.

Are you an ette? I figured you for chechi

All threads about bad things America has allegedly done should also be moved to the cesspool. Or is India in a protected class?

Uh, don't know how that link came there.

Are you an ette? I figured you for chechi

Do you have to be Indian to count as an ette? I learn this stuff because my ABCD girlfriend is from a mallu family.

Do you have to be Indian to count as an ette?

No, of course not, but you have to be older than me, because I forget the mallu term for little brother:p

I learn this stuff because my ABCD girlfriend is from a mallu family.

I wondered why anyone would struggle with Malayalam.

Wednesday, Oct. 17, 2007. The Asia-Pacific region has more than 641 million people living on less than US$1 a day, and in India roughly 40 percent of its 1.1 billion people live on less than US$1 a day, according to the World Bank.

If ya' want some scary figures, check out the number of Indians who die of easily-cured diseases like malaria, measles, whopping cough, etc. Indians die by the thousands every single day of these diseases, but the Indian government would rather spend the money on space flight and space satellites and nuclear weapons!

Baron Max

If ya' want some scary figures, check out the number of Indians who die of easily-cured diseases like malaria, measles, whopping cough, etc. Indians die by the thousands every single day of these diseases, but the Indian government would rather spend the money on space flight and space satellites and nuclear weapons!

Baron Max

Isn't that the way you want it to be in the US?</