Well, here goes...

According to Christian Views...

In the beginning...

There was heaven, and God in heaven, and the creatures of heaven, including the Angels of God. I am assuming that at this moment in time ALL of the universe was perfect, for there was no evil yet. Among the angels was one called Lucifer, the Archangel of worship, and he, 'born' in a PERFECT enviroment, thus with no need of anything, became jealous of God and rebelled.

How could this be? There was no Evil to decieve him, to plant seeds of pride, to tempt him!!! Surely he, existing in the presence of the Almighty for eons, could not know of wrong?

Im not sure what I actually want to ask, but for one thing, does this not mean that a bieng capable of choice is inheritantly evil (or opposed to God) even without the opposite influence? If this is so our souls are by default unbalanced and our nature will not allow us to commit to God fully.

You see, we understand Adam & Eve cause they gained knowledge and input from elsewhere. But Lucifer got bad all by himself. What does this mean?

Heaven could never truly exist.....

God created Satan perfectly with freewill. Satan had freewill to disobey God.

Well, I certainly know that but why would he choose to go against God if all he knew was goodness? I conclude that sin is inherited by biengs with free choice, and having or not having a devil makes no difference....

I dont understand how.:confused:

God created Satan perfectly with freewill. Satan had freewill to disobey God. This is true! Without free will we cannot choose to love God. God wants us to have the choice in life, and that is what makes him so righteous.

Well, I certainly know that but why would he choose to go against God if all he knew was goodness? I conclude that sin is inherited by biengs with free choice, and having or not having a devil makes no difference.... I see your point Sputnik!! If no evil existed then where did the evil inherant in Satan come from?? God created it, as Okinrus said, and again, this relates to free will.

Sputnik,

Hi and welcome to sciforums.

Nice post.

You see, we understand Adam & Eve cause they gained knowledge and input from elsewhere.Did they? They only discovered it was bad to disobey God AFTER they ate from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil. They should never have been held responsible for their alleged sins comitted before they even knew what it meant to be sinful.

But Lucifer got bad all by himself. What does this mean? Perhaps just like Adam and Eve he wasn’t given adequate education concerning the consequences and meaning of his actions. Or that he was simply plain stupid. But that can’t be possible if heaven is so perfect.

So when Okinrus says –

God created Satan perfectly with freewill. Satan had freewill to disobey God.Does this mean that anyone with freewill in heaven can go bad. In which case who would want to go to heaven if there is a real risk of coming up against bad things again. The whole idea of heaven is that evil does not exist.

So I think you are right, if Okinrus is to be believed –

Heaven could never truly exist.....Now of course there might be a more deceptive side to God, and we have seen this already in the way he tricked Adam and Eve into eating the fruit. Perhaps he created Satan deliberately to be evil. But why would he do that?

I agree – your question poses a conundrum.

According to Christian Views...
In the beginning...
There was heaven, and God in heaven, and the creatures of heaven, including the Angels of God. I am assuming that at this moment in time ALL of the universe was perfect.

According to the Bible, in the beginning God “created” the heavens and the earth, not that they were there in the beginning. And why do you presume the all of the universe was any more perfect than it is now?

How could this be? There was no Evil to decieve him, to plant seeds of pride, to tempt him!!! Surely he, existing in the presence of the Almighty for eons, could not know of wrong?

Your baseless assumptions are on overload, what makes you think evil is an external thing?

Im not sure what I actually want to ask, but for one thing, does this not mean that a bieng capable of choice is inheritantly evil (or opposed to God) even without the opposite influence?

It means that a being of “choice” can “choose,” whether or not he becomes evil.

If this is so our souls are by default unbalanced and our nature will not allow us to commit to God fully.

What do you think a soul is?
And, are you controlled by your nature?



Cris,

Did they? They only discovered it was bad to disobey God AFTER they ate from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil.

How so?
As far as I know, God advised Adam not to eat of the tree, otherwise he will surely die.

The whole idea of heaven is that evil does not exist.

That’s an interesting concept, where did you get that information from?

Now of course there might be a more deceptive side to God, and we have seen this already in the way he tricked Adam and Eve into eating the fruit.

He tricked them by advising them not to eat of the tree or else they would surely die? :D

Perhaps he created Satan deliberately to be evil. But why would he do that?

LOL!!! Perhaps the satan decided to become evil. But why would he do that?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Thanks for your stimualting reply Jan, but I beg to differ on a few points.

"According to the Bible, in the beginning God “created” the heavens and the earth, not that they were there in the beginning. And why do you presume the all of the universe was any more perfect than it is now?"

I do not understand your first sentence completely for Heaven has existed for as long as God has, since heaven would be wherever God is and was not created. The heavens (the sky, space) & earth are of our physical universe...

Your second point is very valid and possible, but I presume because of the lack of information the bible provides us concering that reality. I also presume so because in the story of Adam & Eve it is made clear that influence from outside, the serpent, decieves and entices Eve. This implies the reason for sin stems from Satan. In Lucifers case it is not mentioned if he had outside 'help'. The difference in the 2 stories helps me make this very natural presumtion.

"Your baseless assumptions are on overload, what makes you think evil is an external thing?"

Umm, no, you are totally wrong, for if you were to read further I would bring up that very possibillity - "does this not mean that a bieng capable of choice is inheritantly evil". As for my 'baseless assumptions', they are very logical and natural, seeing the amount of info we have about the world of God before out time. Also, I never said I was right, I asked you to assume with me, so as to work to a conclusion!

"What do you think a soul is?
And, are you controlled by your nature?"

A soul is mind, will and emotions.
Yes, I am, for I believe we are part of nature and the animal kingdom and all that it entails. True free will is an allusion. Einstein quote- "a man is free to do as he will, but not free to will as he will"

I agree fully about your points toward Chris -thanks for addressing them.

"LOL!!! Perhaps the satan decided to become evil. But why would he do that?"

In the end you are left with exactly the same conundrum, heh?

Thanks again

"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be."

As soon as God gives a command to his creation, there is good and evil. Now the "force of Evil" is different from evil.

This might help you understand... I don't see anything against the faith that this prophet teaches but I'm not sure of her truthfullness. http://www.mfoh.com/messages/msg2001/feb2001/msg_1509.htm

Thanks for the interesting link Okinrus.

"As soon as God gives a command to his creation, there is good and evil. Now the "force of Evil" is different from evil."

Granted. I understand yet this does not change what I said. The need for going against God must stil come from 1 of 2 places, inside or outside your bieng. Mabye free biengs, and this is the way I like to think of it, are naturally curious!!!

"The most beautifull thing we can experience is the mysterious"
-Einstein

Maybe the question is, would Eve have disobeyed God, without the serpent?

This is all very stimulating. I am an atheist though and see this contradiction as enforcing my views.

Satan was the most powerful angel but we cannot know why anymore than why we can be prideful.

Ezekiel 28
Thus the word of the LORD came to me:
2
Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre: Thus says the Lord GOD: Because you are haughty of heart, you say, "A god am I! I occupy a godly throne in the heart of the sea!"-- And yet you are a man, and not a god, however you may think yourself like a god.
3
1 Oh yes, you are wiser than Daniel, there is no secret that is beyond you.
4
By your wisdom and your intelligence you have made riches for yourself; You have put gold and silver into your treasuries.
5
By your great wisdom applied to your trading you have heaped up your riches; your heart has grown haughty from your riches--
6
therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have thought yourself to have the mind of a god,
7
Therefore I will bring against you foreigners, the most barbarous of nations. They shall draw their swords against your beauteous wisdom, they shall run them through your splendid apparel.
8
They shall thrust you down to the pit, there to die a bloodied corpse, in the heart of the sea.
9
Will you then say, "I am a god!" when you face your murderers? No, you are a man, not a god, handed over to those who will slay you.
10
You shall die the death of the uncircumcised at the hands of foreigners, for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD.
11
Thus the word of the LORD came to me:
12
2 Son of man, utter a lament over the king of Tyre, saying to him: Thus says the Lord GOD: You were stamped with the seal of perfection, of complete wisdom and perfect beauty.
13
In Eden, the garden of God, you were, and every precious stone was your covering (carnelian, topaz, and beryl, chrysolite, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, garnet, and emerald); Of gold your pendants and jewels were made, on the day you were created.
14
3 With the Cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God, walking among the fiery stones.
15
Blameless you were in your conduct from the day you were created, Until evil was found in you,
16
the result of your far-flung trade; violence was your business, and you sinned. Then I banned you from the mountain of God; the Cherub drove you from among the fiery stones.
17
You became haughty of heart because of your beauty; for the sake of splendor you debased your wisdom. I cast you to the earth, so great was your guilt; I made you a spectacle in the sight of kings.
18
Because of your guilt, your sinful trade, I have profaned your sanctuaries, And I have brought out fire from your midst which will devour you. I have reduced you to dust on the earth in the sight of all who should see you.
19
Among the peoples, all who knew you stand aghast at you; You have become a horror, you shall be no more.
20
Thus the word of the LORD came to me:
21
Son of man, look toward Sidon, and prophesy against it:
22
Thus says the Lord GOD: See! I am coming at you, Sidon; I will be glorified in your midst. Then they shall know that I am the LORD, when I inflict punishments upon it and use it to manifest my holiness.
23
Into it I will send pestilence, and blood shall flow in its streets. Within it shall fall those slain by the sword that comes against it from every side. Thus they shall know that I am the LORD.
24
Sidon shall no longer be a tearing thorn for the house of Israel, a brier that scratches them more than all the others about them who despise them; thus they shall know that I am the LORD.
25
Thus says the Lord GOD: When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, then I will manifest my holiness through them in the sight of the nations. Then they shall live on their land which I gave to my servant Jacob;
26
they shall live on it in security, building houses and planting vineyards. They shall dwell secure while I inflict punishments on all their neighbors who despised them; thus they shall know that I, the LORD, am their God.

Perhaps he created Satan deliberately to be evil. But why would he do that? Because without it there would be no freewill!

(and freewill is neccessary for deciding morality)

Your baseless assumptions are on overload, what makes you think evil is an external thing? If God is good, and in the beginning there was only God, then there must only be goodness.

I think you're all missing the point slightly with the apple and the tree thing. The story isn't actually about an apple in a tree, it's about something else. :)

The story isn't actually about an apple in a tree, it's about something else.

Well, the story actually is about an apple (and about Eve, Adam and the serpent). It would probably make more sense though If only people could see beyond the symbols. Questioning the official catholic interpretation of the story would be helpful as well.

As far as I know, God advised Adam not to eat of the tree, otherwise he will surely die.

I'm pretty sure you and i have been through this before. Here goes, (again):

There was a tree, which was the tree of Knowledge of good and evil.

This tree would provide anyone who eats from it knowledge of good and evil

Thus, until adam and eve had eaten from it they would not have any knowledge of good or evil.

god said: "dont eat from the tree"
serpent said: "eat from the tree"

Without having any knowledge of good or evil how would adam or eve be in a position to choose good or evil?

It would be entirely insignificant to them. To all intents and purposes, adam could very well have beaten eve over the head with a large stick, raped a few of the local tyrannosaurus rex's, stuck his bum up at god and farted etc because he would not, until having eaten from the tree, have any knowledge of good or evil

Once he's eaten from the tree i can imagine the following dialogue:

Adam: "oh bollocks, im in the doghouse now."

Once they had eaten from the tree god says:

"Man has now become like one of us [?], knowing good and evil."

Which, in his own words, clearly shows beyond any doubt that until AFTER they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they actually had no knowledge of good or evil.

Using your assumption Adam had no knowledge of good and therefore no knowledge of God and thus no knowledge of God's command. However Christians believe that Adam and Eve were full of grace. No imperfections of sin and no predilication to sin.
They knew God's joy and his command. And they knew what God wanted them to do because they were taught only by the Holy Spirit, God himself.

Originally posted by okinrus
Using your assumption Adam had no knowledge of good and therefore no knowledge of God and thus no knowledge of God's command.

That is a hell of a jump to make.
How do you figure?

Adam knew God because God spoke to him.
But, as specifically pointed out in Genesis, Adam did not know good and evil.
He has no understanding of what is right and what is wrong.
He would not know that it was "wrong" to disobey God.

That doesn't say that he didn't know God.
What do you base that assumption on?

However Christians believe that Adam and Eve were full of grace. No imperfections of sin and no predilication to sin.

Thus, absolutely no knowledge of evil.


"man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

So according to god himself they had no knowledge of either BEFORE eating from the tree. They may have had no sins and obviously without knowledge of evil could not 'want' or 'consider' sinning but just might end up doing so simply because they had no knowledge of what it was.

Adam knew God because God spoke to him.
But, as specifically pointed out in Genesis, Adam did not know good and evil. He has no understanding of what is right and what is wrong. He would not know that it was "wrong" to disobey God.

Adam's knowledge of what was good came from God because God is only good.

Originally posted by okinrus
Adam's knowledge of what was good came from God because God is only good.

So when the Bible says that Adam had no knowledge fo good and evil what exactly did it men?

Did God lie when he said, as SnakeLord pointed out, "man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."?

If Adam knew what good and/or evil was, why was it bad for him to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Adam's knowledge of what was good came from God because God is only good.

Ok, and where did adams knowledge of evil come from? Eating the fruit from the tree perhaps?

If you say it came from god, then, for the third time now, i'd ask why god himself would say "man has NOW become like one of us.." which clearly shows he had no knowledge of such until AFTER he'd eaten from the tree.

Back to the original post...

"Perfect" does not necessarily mean "free from all that is negative".

It could have very well meant a perfect balance between good and evil.

The age old argument...
If you did not have evil to compare good against, would good truly exist?

If there was no such thing as darkness, there would be no contrast, no colors at all.
All would be white therefore invisible.
Light would be all encompassing.
Without darkness to define light, light would simply be all there is, therefore not need defining.
It wouldn't exist.

You are assuming that Adam did not know what is good through God. Adam could have known good but not known what was evil. For example we know what truth is but also what lies are. So this story was really want to be like gods, to be our own judge of what is good and evil. The judges of Isreal were called gods. See Psalm 82

A psalm of Asaph. 1 God rises in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods.
2
"How long will you judge unjustly and favor the cause of the wicked? Selah
3
Defend the lowly and fatherless; render justice to the afflicted and needy.
4
Rescue the lowly and poor; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
5
2 The gods neither know nor understand, wandering about in darkness, and all the world's foundations shake.
6
3 I declare: "Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you,
7
Yet like any mortal you shall die; like any prince you shall fall."
8
4 Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations.


Footnotes
1 [Psalm 82] As in Psalm 58, the pagan gods are seen as subordinate divine beings to whom Israel's God had delegated oversight of the foreign countries in the beginning (Deut 32:8-9). Now God arises in the heavenly assembly (Psalm 82:1) to rebuke the unjust "gods" (Psalm 82:2-4), who are stripped of divine status and reduced in rank to mortals (Psalm 82:5-7). They are accused of misruling the earth by not upholding the poor. A short prayer for universal justice concludes the psalm (Psalm 82:8).

God is a bit of a control freak, as long as you love him to bits, everything is o.k. The second you say you don't like him....well that really pisses him off. Oh no, wait, he is all forgiving and ever-loving. So I guess ...no that's not it.

O.k. lets see, He made everything everywhere, because he's God. Then he made us, and made us the way we are. Then tempted us with 'sin', which he knew would tempt us, because he's, well, God. He knew the outcome, because he's umm..God. Then got pissed off at us because we did what he should of known we would do - because he's God. ('bit of a rigged game I'd say)

Or........the bible is a great book of ideas and stories written by men who were deluded into thinking they were writing on God's behalf. It is just a book made of paper. It holds only as much relevance and control over you as you let it.

The first testament especially is at best an anthology of campfire tales handed down verbally for generations before making to print.

Fortunately, nearly everyone has a built in sense of God. No religious interpretation is required. Listen to your soul. Forget religion.

Originally posted by okinrus
You are assuming that Adam did not know what is good through God. Adam could have known good but not known what was evil.

OK.

For the sake of argument, let's say this is true (even though to know what Good is one MUST know what Good isn't, therefore what Evil is).
Adam knew what good was, but did NOT know what evil was, OK?

So, if he did not know what evil was...
We go back to Cris' original point, and what SnakeLord and I have been trying to get at...

Originally posted by Cris
They only discovered it was bad to disobey God AFTER they ate from the tree that gave the knowledge of good and evil. They should never have been held responsible for their alleged sins comitted before they even knew what it meant to be sinful.

Originally posted by Jeremy
Fortunately, nearly everyone has a built in sense of God.

You think so?

Maybe you should start a thread on this subject.
It might be an interesting discussion.
I think it would, anyway.

God is a bit of a control freak, as long as you love him to bits, everything is o.k. The second you say you don't like him....well that really pisses him off. Oh no, wait, he is all forgiving and ever-loving. So I guess ...no that's not it.

If you don't recieve his love for us, what else would you expect?


O.k. lets see, He made everything everywhere, because he's God. Then he made us, and made us the way we are. Then tempted us with 'sin', which he knew would tempt us, because he's, well, God. He knew the outcome, because he's umm..God. Then got pissed off at us because we did what he should of known we would do - because he's God. ('bit of a rigged game I'd say)

God does not tempt. He only allowed the serpent to tempt us. No, you should not assume that God knows the future.

For the sake of argument, let's say this is true (even though to know what Good is one MUST know what Good isn't, therefore what Evil is).
Adam knew what good was, but did NOT know what evil was, OK?

So, if he did not know what evil was...
We go back to Cris' original point, and what SnakeLord and I have been trying to get at...

No. Adam knew only the good that God taught him. I see the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil basically as a list of sins.

Originally posted by okinrus
No. Adam knew only the good that God taught him. I see the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil basically as a list of sins.

Exactly the point.

If he didn't know it was a sin to disobey God (since he had not yet read this "list" how could it be held against him?

If you never tell your child that it is "wrong" to take toys that don't belong to them, and the child takes another child's toy does your child deserve punishment?
He did not know it was wrong, therefore did not deserve punishment.

Am I not explaining this well?
I am not sure why you don't seem to get what my point is.
If there is a specific thing that you don't understand about what I am saying please point it out.

Also, to help me understand your point of view, please explain to me your reasoning and rationale.
Thanks.

Yes God told Adam that "you shall not eat or you will surely die".
Adam knew the consequences of disobeying God's command but still eat.

lol its like talking to a chimpanzee.

Better a chimp than a snake...


Exactly the point.

If he didn't know it was a sin to disobey God (since he had not yet read this "list" how could it be held against him?

If you never tell your child that it is "wrong" to take toys that don't belong to them, and the child takes another child's toy does your child deserve punishment?
He did not know it was wrong, therefore did not deserve punishment.

Am I not explaining this well?
I am not sure why you don't seem to get what my point is.
If there is a specific thing that you don't understand about what I am saying please point it out.

Also, to help me understand your point of view, please explain to me your reasoning and rationale.
Thanks.

Ok I'll try this again. When we ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil we received the knowledge of all sins, the natural law. Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve still knew to obey God and not to eat the fruit of knowledge, because God gave them this knowledge. You are incorrect on your assumption that Adam did not have any knowledge of good or evil before eating. God did not want Adam to be able to judge what was right or wrong, but wanted us to bring everything to him. Once Adam ate the fruit, they were like judges or gods. (psalm 82)

In case anyone likes any stories about chimps...
http://www.maxwell.syr.edu/maxpages/special/ramayana/RAMA.html

Then we shall punish him. Set his tail on fire. Let him return home that way," Ravana declared.

As the king's men wrapped Hanuman's tail in cloth to set it on fire he grew it longer and longer. The more they wrapped, the longer Hanuman grew his tail. Finally, Ravana ordered, "Set it on fire!" cried Ravana.

With his long tail on fire, Hanuman flew into the sky. He decided to set the city of Lanka ablaze to punish Ravana. He flew low over the city and set each building, temple, palace and garden on fire. Flames shot high into the sky. As he flew over Asoka garden he made sure Sita was safe. Then before he headed home, he put his tail in the ocean to put out the fire.

When we ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil we received the knowledge of all sins

So.. before eating the fruit he had no knowledge of sins, because as you said: when he ate the fruit he received knowledge of all sins.

Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve still knew to obey God and not to eat the fruit of knowledge, because God gave them this knowledge.

But at this stage like YOU said, they wouldn't have any knowledge of sins, and thus they wouldn't know it's a sin to eat the fruit.

You are incorrect on your assumption that Adam did not have any knowledge of good or evil before eating.

How would that be incorrect? The bible very clearly states that until AFTER they had eaten the fruit they had no knowldge of good or evil. AFTER eating the fruit god says "Man has NOW become like one of us- KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL."

It remains you have nothing to support your wild assumption that they did know.

God did not want Adam to be able to judge what was right or wrong

So if adam wasn't able to judge what was right or wrong how would he know not to eat the fruit? It would not be wrong to eat the fruit because adam wouldn't know wtf wrong meant.

You're digging yourself a deeper hole.

Once Adam ate the fruit, they were like judges or gods.

"Man has NOW become like one of us- KNOWING good and evil"

P.S You seem to have a very lowly opinion of snakes. Have you ever had any snakes as pets? Have you ever studied the behaviour of snakes?

They are widely misunderstood creatures and suffice it to say FAR from being deceptive. If anything snakes are "full on." They squeeze their prey to death, spit poison in their face etc etc... If you want a creature of deception try something like a spider, some types of fish. There are even some mammals that pretend to be injured and when something comes to eat them they jump up and attack. That is deception- and snakes are not like that whatsoever.

Superstition and folklore concerning snakes is quite rife throughout history- If a snake crosses your path, watch out for false friends is just one of these beliefs. All are completely unfounded, baseless assumptions about a creature the believers know nothing about. You base your whole understanding of snakes on a few simple words in an old book which is as misguided as claiming all bats go round drinking human blood.

So.. before eating the fruit he had no knowledge of sins, because as you said: when he ate the fruit he received knowledge of all sins.

I'm saying *all* sins or at least a way to feel if something is a sin or not.


How would that be incorrect? The bible very clearly states that until AFTER they had eaten the fruit they had no knowldge of good or evil. AFTER eating the fruit god says "Man has NOW become like one of us- KNOWING GOOD AND EVIL."

Yes, the fruit contained knowledge of *everything* that is good and evil.


So if adam wasn't able to judge what was right or wrong how would he know not to eat the fruit? It would not be wrong to eat the fruit because adam wouldn't know wtf wrong meant.

He knew exactly what God told him, that his sin would cause death just as it does today.


Superstition and folklore concerning snakes is quite rife throughout history- If a snake crosses your path, watch out for false friends is just one of these beliefs. All are completely unfounded, baseless assumptions about a creature the believers know nothing about. You base your whole understanding of snakes on a few simple words in an old book which is as misguided as claiming all bats go round drinking human blood.

Where are you getting this. Didn't I say that demons were serpents, not biological serpents of course.

I'm saying *all* sins or at least a way to feel if something is a sin or not.

Lol, you do try and grasp at anything, with absolutely nothing to back up the worthless claim.

One more time... Until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would have no knowledge of good and evil. It's not a case of: until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of *some* good and evil! Until they had eaten the fruit they didn't even know what being naked was, let alone what was right and wrong.

Yes, the fruit contained knowledge of *everything* that is good and evil.

Until they had eaten it they wouldn't have any knowledge of good or evil, which is why god says: "man has now become like one of us knowing good and evil." Which clearly shows before that time they were unlike them [the gods?] because they didn't know good and evil. Your baseless assumptions that they had some knowledge is completely unsubstantiated.

He knew exactly what God told him, that his sin would cause death just as it does today.


Not at all. god said he would surely die, the serpent said he would surely not die. With absolutely NO means by which to differentiate which is the correct one to listen to he has made no fault.

Furthermore death today is caused by many things other than 'sin'. Old age, to name but one.

not biological serpents of course.

Oh? Pretend ones then?

Not at all. god said he would surely die, the serpent said he would surely not die. With absolutely NO means by which to differentiate which is the correct one to listen to he has made no fault.

Furthermore death today is caused by many things other than 'sin'. Old age, to name but one.

No. Death to the soul.


One more time... Until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would have no knowledge of good and evil. It's not a case of: until they had eaten from the tree of knowledge of *some* good and evil! Until they had eaten the fruit they didn't even know what being naked was, let alone what was right and wrong.

You assumption is wrong, God told them that eating the fruit would cause death. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was the full knowledge of good and evil. Before eating the fruit, man only recieved there knowledge of what was good from God. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not the concept of goodness which is God.

Anyways try to read
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#I
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#II
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#III
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#IV

Okinrus,

God told them that eating the fruit would cause death.How would they have known what death meant and that it was bad? They were the first people and no one had died at that point.

No. Death to the soul

Oh... so if a guy physically dies of old age... the soul goes on to sin and die from that sin? Or does the soul die when the body dies? If a soul dies when the body dies, then if a man dies of old age- so does the soul. If you then proceed to tell me that sinless peoples souls do not die but go up to heaven then does that mean sinful peoples souls do die? If they're dead what difference would it make if they burn in hell for eternity? They're dead, after all.

In conclusion it would seem that either way you look at it, the soul does not die. Thus any physical being who dies, doesn't neccesarily die from sin as i said.

In essence: sinful or sinless, your soul would still live forever, albeit in a different environment.

You assumption is wrong, God told them that eating the fruit would cause death. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was the full knowledge of good and evil. Before eating the fruit, man only recieved there knowledge of what was good from God. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is not the concept of goodness which is God.

My "assumption" is based upon evidence written in your bible. You, instead seem to feel the need to shoot off on a tangent spouting unrelated and highly questionable support material, mainly non-existant support material.

Most class the serpent as a liar, in fact: "The father of lies" but how much of a liar was he?

He said: "when you eat of it you shall become like god."

Straight after, god says: "Man has now become like one of us."

Simply put, the serpent was telling the truth. If we conclude that souls do not die, they just either go to heaven or hell, then the serpent was also telling the truth by saying they would not die.

Of course it would still be impossible for adam to weigh up the situation because until AFTER he had eaten the fruit he would have had no knowledge of good and evil. As stated very damn clearly by god himself.

Oh... so if a guy physically dies of old age... the soul goes on to sin and die from that sin? Or does the soul die when the body dies? If a soul dies when the body dies, then if a man dies of old age- so does the soul. If you then proceed to tell me that sinless peoples souls do not die but go up to heaven then does that mean sinful peoples souls do die? If they're dead what difference would it make if they burn in hell for eternity? They're dead, after all.

In conclusion it would seem that either way you look at it, the soul does not die. Thus any physical being who dies, doesn't neccesarily die from sin as i said.

In essence: sinful or sinless, your soul would still live forever, albeit in a different environment.

Biological death is the seperation of the soul and the body. The spiritual death is seperation of the soul from God. Indirectly all of mankind dies because of Adam's fall.


How would they have known what death meant and that it was bad? They were the first people and no one had died at that point.

God is able to speak directly to the heart. I'm sure God might have been able to show them a vision of themselves dying.


My "assumption" is based upon evidence written in your bible. You, instead seem to feel the need to shoot off on a tangent spouting unrelated and highly questionable support material, mainly non-existant support material.

No it's not. God said that his creation was good and Adam knew his creation and so they knew goodness from God.


Most class the serpent as a liar, in fact: "The father of lies" but how much of a liar was he?

"You shall not surely died" this contradicts God's "You shall surely die".

Indirectly all of mankind dies because of Adam's fall.

How convenient to blame a guy several eons ago for the death of everyone. I wonder, would that include my son who died while still in his mothers womb? He didn't get the chance to hear about jesus, nor to choose right from wrong.. tell me... did he sin because he was kicking his mother? It's adams fault! what an asshole.

But then again... It could be my fault because im an athiest right? Didnt god say he'll punish peoples kids, kids kids, kids kids kids, and kids kids kids kids? Shit, im an athiest so my son got ko'd... If i had have known he'd kill my son for my transgressions i would have been as blindly subservient as you.

I have with me the medical explanation for my sons death- but thats just a load of old horseshit and cannot compare to the obvious fact that it's actually down to a guy 6000+ years ago.

You're living in a fantasy world. Next week you'll be having dinner with the munchkins, finding a pot of gold under the nearby rainbow, and growing a pair of white wings with which to fly above the clouds.

God is able to speak directly to the heart. I'm sure God might have been able to show them a vision of themselves dying.

You seem to be clinging desperately to thin air and making it up as you go along. Kindly don't do it, it's insulting.

No it's not. God said that his creation was good and Adam knew his creation and so they knew goodness from God.

god said his creation of plants was good. That doesn't mean the plants have any knowledge of good and evil- unless of course they eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil in which case god would then say: "plants have now become like one of us guys, knowing good and evil."

"You shall not surely died" this contradicts God's "You shall surely die".

I actually answered this in the last post- somehow you managed to miss it.

If the soul separates from god and buggers off to hell it must to all intents and purposes be "alive" for it to be worth the time burning, otherwise it is not suffering in hell, because it is in fact dead. If souls remain alive one way or the other then the serpent was telling the truth.

How convenient to blame a guy several eons ago for the death of everyone. I wonder, would that include my son who died while still in his mothers womb? He didn't get the chance to hear about jesus, nor to choose right from wrong.. tell me... did he sin because he was kicking his mother? It's adams fault! what an asshole.


But then again... It could be my fault because im an athiest right? Didnt god say he'll punish peoples kids, kids kids, kids kids kids, and kids kids kids kids? Shit, im an athiest so my son got ko'd... If i had have known he'd kill my son for my transgressions i would have been as blindly subservient as you.

I have with me the medical explanation for my sons death- but thats just a load of old horseshit and cannot compare to the obvious fact that it's actually down to a guy 6000+ years ago.

No, he's in heaven not hell. Jesus said that kingdom of heaven was filled with children. Satan is also able to kill with God's allowance so don't assume that anyone is punishing you.


You seem to be clinging desperately to thin air and making it up as you go along. Kindly don't do it, it's insulting.

I'm not being insulting. The story of genesis is not complete and much of it is symbolic.

No, he's in heaven not hell.

Actually it would appear hes a few feet under the ground, turning into bones. ALL evidence supports that claim. There is not one remotely worthy amount of evidence to suggest there being a heaven or a hell and thus just believing in it because 'it sounds nicer' is irrelevant, mentally dangerous and emotionally weak.

Jesus said that kingdom of heaven was filled with children.

And Bob Marley said we should all get happy and get stoned. What's your point? And why would it be filled with children? god gets off on killing people while they're young?

Satan is also able to kill with God's allowance

Well, the choices just get better and better.

A) My child somehow sinned and paid for those sins with his life.
B) I sinned and as god said he would punish a persons children for the transgressions of the parents..
C) god allowed the devil to kill my child- making god a murderer. I wont even point blame at the devil- it's his job to be nasty... whats gods excuse?

so don't assume that anyone is punishing you.

I don't. I am stating what is written in YOUR bible, your personal book of truth. Personally i would think the punishment is more of a punishment to the tiny child who wasn't given the chance of life than punishment to me.

The story of genesis is not complete and much of it is symbolic.

And with a cunning flick of the wrist, the words of god become nothing more than symbolism.

C) god allowed the devil to kill my child- making god a murderer. I wont even point blame at the devil- it's his job to be nasty... whats gods excuse?

That's really for you to find out. The story of Job had a good ending.


I don't. I am stating what is written in YOUR bible, your personal book of truth. Personally i would think the punishment is more of a punishment to the tiny child who wasn't given the chance of life than punishment to me.

Read Ezekiel 18
"Only the one who sins shall die".

That's really for you to find out. The story of Job had a good ending.

That is completely beside the point. Ok, so in the future things become better- and you end up with more than you started with yada yada- the fact remains my son is still dead. According to you satan can kill people when god allows him to. I said if that's the case god is a murderer- that still stands true. Fine, i might be given 1000 oxen next week but the death of my son has happened regardless. You might not understand that unless you get the chance to see your child die right in front of your face, i hope it never happens, but don't think its as easy to sum up as the rather mundane ending of job.

Read Ezekiel 18
"Only the one who sins shall die".

So, my son did sin? Make up your fucking mind.

God allows freewill over his creation including Satan.
We all die once. Read the entire Ezekiel 18.

Actually ezekiel 18 has absolutely no relevance here except to show just how often god contradicts himself.

Furthermore i can guarantee my son never:

defiled his neighbours wife, slept with a woman on her period, stole anything from anyone, oppressed anyone etc etc etc. Yet according to ezekiel 18 and in direct contradiction to many other portions of the bible, (exodus as example), god will only kill those who have sinned, or those who turn to sin instead of handing out punishment to children because of their fathers digressions. As such the conclusion that can be drawn is to say my son sinned somehow. And yet, although he sinned and as a consequence got killed by god, you still expect me to assume he would be in heaven when the christian faith would have us believe sinners go to hell.

Much like adam, my son would have had no knowledge of good and evil. Yet the outcome remains the same in both instances.

It's safe to say we can conclude this here and now. You, your bible and your god really have nothing of value or substance to offer. You all share the same trait of contradiction and hypocricy and can't even go one post without delving off into the world of irrelevance.

Jesus did not sin and he died. Your son is sinless and is in heaven.

Oh spare me from the deluded fantasy speech. To be honest i wouldn't wish it on anyone that they have to spend eternity listening to christian simpletons.