It amazes me that there are so many people taking cracks at America and Americans, including some of our own citizens.

Consider the following from a Chinese Exchange student.. . . Another thing that strikes me with admiration at Haverford is the spirit of democracy. This is expressed in many ways, none more conspicuously than in the dining room. Students wait on tables!! They have no inferiority complex, but are proud to earn some pocket money . . . . In China, no student would “condescend” to accept such a job . . . I wonder how long it will take for the feeling of class distinction in China to die out. Think about the above. The communists have been running China for over 50 years, supposedly preaching about a classless society. Where does a young Chinese student find such a society? At an American college which happens to have a lot of students from very affluent families.

Yes, we still have racism here, and I expect it to survive for at least another generation or two. However, we have come a long way since the 1940's. I remember driving to Florida with classmates and being the one to register at motels while the others stayed in the car. Some of my friends were Jewish and I was the only one in the car with an Anglo Saxon name. South of Washington DC, there were quite a few motels with prominent signs saying: “No niggers, jews, or dogs allowed ” (apparently, they had a kindly opinion of cats). Most of the motels without such signs had the attitude. Today, there may be many with the attitude, but at least the signs are gone, and the bigots cannot openly make racist remarks without considering the context. I can remember losing a friend or two when I objected to racist and/or anti-Semitic remarks may years ago. That no longer happens. Most of the time, I do not even hear such remarks. While we still have racism, compared to that era, anti-Semitism has been cut down drastically.

America seems to be able to cure its ills without a revolution. We are still the destination of choice for the rest of the world. The best and the brightest come here if they can. One of my best friends is a Russian immigrant who came here 20 years ago. She now runs a successful business. A recently deceased friend was an Englishman who worked with me in the 1960's and went back to England thirty years ago. He got in touch with me about ten years ago because he was impressed that I socialized with him and his wife outside of office hours. His parents were factory workers, while he knew that my father was an engineer and a businessman. He said that in England, my kind never became close friends with his kind. I wonder if it is still that way in the UK. I never thought of my kind as opposed to his kind. He said he would have stayed in America but for his parents who would not move to a new country.

Most of the people in the US classed as impoverished are way better off than those in third world countries. A person with intelligence and ambition can still make it here. My Russian friend still does not speak English well and came here with nothing but some clothes and enough money to live for a few weeks.

Where do the affluent Arabs send their children to college? How many decent colleges are there in Arab countries? For that matter, how many are there outside of the Western type technological cultures? How well would my Russian Friend do in an Arab country? How well would a female like her do in most countries?

Considering our financial and military power, I think we behave well. A few countries like England, Belgium, Switzerland, and Australia, are the only ones I would expect to behave as well, and I shudder to think of what many would do with our financial and military power. Look at the difference in attitude toward defeated enemies in WW1 & WW2. America had a lot of influence after WW2, and gave Germany/Japan a better break than any foe of any country who surrendered unconditionally.

If we could get rid of at least half the lawyers and reform most of our politicians, this country would really be great instead of merely damn good.

The worst crime I blame America for is stupidity in supporting dictators, something we started during WW2 with the USSR. We never seem to realize that having a common enemy does make a person or country your friend. We also seem to forget that making deals with evil is neither ethical nor practical.

As for going to war with Iraq, it seems like we decided to get tuff with the Middle East too late. If Carter had done something drastic instead of diddling for months and then trying a stupid commando raid, the Arab countries might not have been so brave about causing trouble for us. We have looked like a pussy cat to them for decades.

I have no doubt that they were surprised at our reaction to 7/11.

We got rid of a dictator and now we are the world's dictator. If George Bush doesn't like some other country's leader, he will just make up a bunch of lies and go to war to oust the leader. I can see how others in the world hate us.

I was thinking this very thing today on my way home from school. I was and am seriously considering doing some volunteer work in Turkey for a few weeks, and I got to thinking how different that world must be from mine. How so many people around the world desire to live where I do with the people that I do with the things that I do, how so few actually can...it's mindboggling. In spite of America's faults I love living here and being part of a nation people will be talking about thousands and thousands of years from now. It's a great feeling--I don't doubt that during Rome's height there was a similar sense of patriotism abound with the people "educated" enough to apreciate it.

I would agree with you that the United States in many ways is the greatest nation on earth. BUT... with that greatness comes the potential for the greatest evil on earth.

We can steer away from doing evil, but it will be a long and painful lesson. Peoples suffering under American policies are learning that the superpower does have vulnerabilities, and that if properly exploited we are no more powerful than Belgium or Australia. Once we learn that lesson, we can then aspire to real greatness.

nice. relatively speaking, we are cool. neato. be thankful for what you got
"eat up all your greens tommy! there are ethiopians starving"

i need to think. what are the hidden costs of being american. are there any?

I live in the USA because I am fortunate enough to be an American, because I am patriotic, and because I have opportunities here I have not found elsewhere.

As someone already said, with greatness (national, not personal) comes responsibility. National greatness is not a permanent inheritance: It must be earned by each generation. With the evolution of all nations ongoing, we must surpass the greatness of our forebears just to keep up: Yesterday's "Grand Nation" is tomorrow's Absurdistan.

American assumptions of entitlement, and a collective attitude of arrogant self-righteousness are real and present threats to our greatness. It is patriotic, and in my own self interest to oppose these tendencies.

You guys who think America is so great please read "The New Rulers of the World" by John Pilger and then report back here that your opinion hasn't changed.

Originally posted by Laser Eyes
You guys who think America is so great please read "The New Rulers of the World" by John Pilger and then report back here that your opinion hasn't changed.

Okay, but you have to read "Slander" by Ann Coulter. And then "Treason", also by Coulter. Deal?

Deal.

I also accept the challenge, having read not one of the 3 books mentioned. Let's all have our book reports in a week, class;)

Spookz sez
i need to think. what are the hidden costs of being american. are there any?

Being miserably uneducated about the rest of the world, in a lot of cases... living with endemic mild racism, like the kind you get on ER and Law and Order... being stupid enough to think that, if push came to shove, the US could control China or defeat them in a land war... living in a land of Tuff Guys who yet run whining to the government when someone undercuts their prices on prescription drugs, softwood lumber, produce... not thinking that there is any other way to do things than the way they are done.

Individual Americans are often very educated and interesting people, but as a whole the US can really look like a country of rednecks and idiots... so apologies to the individuals who don't have these problems.

Originally posted by BigBlueHead
Individual Americans are often very educated and interesting people, but as a whole the US can really look like a country of rednecks and idiots... so apologies to the individuals who don't have these problems.

Limey bastard.

I've got a line on a dentist for you, redcoat.

HA!

LOL. Pardon.

:D

Oh, and Dino I often have a somewhat surprised reaction to 7/11. Usually like "what did that dude say?". LOL. Okay so I suck.

I do agree though, that America really is great. I feel very privelaged to live here.

Huzzah!

Yall liss'n here. Livin in this country is great!! That America is great, yea it is, We've gots Canada, Greenland, Central America an' South America, livin in the US, is great though I'aint recon Venezuelans year consider it real great over there, now that the US is on a rampage fer all.

The big daddy as it wuz is what the US is in the Amurkin continent, Though I'aint understan' why US leaves Cuban dictator alone Fidel Castro, alone while he is also responsible fer killin thounsands of his own folks, an' bla,bla, dictator evil shiet. But Afner the US commensed ta puttin prisoners of war over there in Guantanomo, as ta keepem from US laws, so they can tourture an' do what ever the hell they want, this explains what purpose Cuba serves fer The US. Arrogant bastards..


No I ain't got cumplaints livin in this country of the (mediocarly free) wuz guvernment is the daddy of the land, as if I wuz stupid ta not know what kin' of medicine I miat need, so by force I havta go ta the doc. pay $75@visit just ta git alergie pills. A guvernment that is easily manipulated by money, an' interest groups wif deep pockets, so now 18 yyear olds year old enough ta git killed in war, but not old enough ta drink, That I'm not responcible enough ta stay in a bar afner 2:00 Am except in Vegas, the lan' wif mow lawyers than there year cows in Wyomin, wuz kids git expelled fer havin aspirin in school, wuz my pickup truck is confiscated cause some dog smelled a seed of marijuana. Yea fer yall dumb assess if yall still recon yall year livin in a free country, just be glad urine name ain't not Hussein, Asaiid, or any kin' of Arab name, it is just the same when they put evary Japanese in detention hold, hell this country has not changed, it is still full of fuckin biggotss, assholes an' idiots. Ya reckon?

Butts I lovess livig here anyway!!.

Godless.



:D

I believe the proper redneck pronunciation of Arab is "Ay-rab". Just so you get it right.

:)

godless
you rock
i cracked up!

*hidden costs as... in what does it take to maintain our lifestyle? do we do so at the expense of ours? isnt terrorism a hidden cost of doing business with israel? deforestation due to our wasteful ways? something in the lines of that. does our consumption of most of the natural resources mean others will have less and thus live in poverty?

BTW Dinosaur:

We also seem to forget that making deals with evil is neither ethical nor practical.

Evil? Who, the USSR? Unless we're defining evil as highly subjective, they weren't really evil. Besides, technically they were still "Russia" in WWII, not the USSR.

Quote: I believe the proper redneck pronunciation of Arab is "Ay-rab". Just so you get it right.

Oh!! really? well then tell this people:

http://www.atlantaga.com/redneck.htm

Yo buss dis. Gregoftheweb..Do you noed redneck? well den maybe you might also noed some ebonics, I truly love dis country though I ain't agree wit de guvernment, an' what be doin ovuh dere killin crum snachas an' havin our boys killed too. We be only dere makin Bush an' company richuh fuh his friends Haliburton be a very happy company wit its no bid contracts to rebuild Irag, well we surely showed de world, dat if you ain't stan' wit us, you kaint profit wit us, de US closes de doe on any country dat opposed de war, on bids to rebuild Irag, who profits by wipin out Irags debts? everythin overthere be done fuh profit, meanwhile dis adminiskration goes an' cuts military duty pay, veteran disability pay, an' evary cut dis boys can come up screwin our troops, support!! Please. Hell I support de troops, brindem home Bush! or sen' yo daughters dere fuh a one year service, see if you do dat. Sheeit!


Godless.

the US of A is at the same time the most loved, hated, admired and feared nation on earth.

there are many pluses and many minuses.
the masses of illegal refugees and immigration applicants suggest that the pluses are bigger than the minuses.

We got rid of a dictator and now we are the world's dictator. If George Bush doesn't like some other country's leader, he will just make up a bunch of lies and go to war to oust the leader. I can see how others in the world hate us.
you are a baboon.
please read the topic before you respond.

there are minuses and there are pluses. even if a certain war was unjustified, the decision on whether US is good or bad cannot be based solely on that.

if a doctor loses (does not save the life of) a patient once in a while that does not make him a bad doctor. you have to look at how many other patients he treats, and how they turn out.

on a big scale, USA is a very good country. many Americans have no idea how lucky they are living there.

Originally posted by spookz
*hidden costs as... in what does it take to maintain our lifestyle? do we do so at the expense of ours? does our consumption of most of the natural resources mean others will have less and thus live in poverty?

Yes, in every way. Or rather, because the USA is at the top of the economic heap, it warps everything to suit itself. Exporting debt, pollution, importing all the raw materials etc it can find. Of course, all this is implicit in gloablisaiton anyhow, and since most of the people here are doing ok by it, you wont find many dissenters.

BigBlueHead:Where did you learn your history?Evil? Who, the USSR? Unless we're defining evil as highly subjective, they weren't really evil. Besides, technically they were still "Russia" in WWII, not the USSR.The history I remember is something like the following.The economic consequences of the civil war were disastrous, culminating in the enormous famine of 1920-21. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) was established in 1922 and, following Lenin's death in January 1924, a new world record in the mistreatment of fellow humans was achieved by his successor, Stalin. He introduced farm collectivization, destroying the peasantry both as a class and as a way of life. Millions were executed or exiled to Siberian concentration camps.

Russia's nonagression pact with Germany set the scene for WWII, with Hitler and Stalin passing states between them like hot potatoes.When Britain seemed beaten, Hitler doublecrossed the USSR and attacked, which was a disastrous mistake. Britain might have been willing to accept a truce or peace treaty at that time, leaving Germany in control of most of Europe. The US was not yet in the war and might never have gotten involved in the European conflict. The above bit of history from http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/europe/russia/history.htmBTW: It is genrally acknowledged that the USSR under Stalin killed at least 20 million people, mostly by harsh conditions in Siberian labor camps. The Holocaust got more attention due to the victims being executed quickly in large numbers, rather than taking years to starve or die of disease while working long hours in a brutal climate with minimal food, clothes, and medical attention.

You're correct, Dinosaur. Russia, Byelorussia, Ukraine, and the Transcaucasian Federation became the USSR in December 1922.

Britain might have been willing to accept a truce or peace treaty at that time, leaving Germany in control of most of Europe.

Nope, instead the British navy and royal family would live in England II... a.k.a Canada. Britian would have never surrendered, the Nazi's would have to fight. But if Britian were to have been invaded and made into Germania's biatch, then the war in Europe would have been over.

It is genrally acknowledged that the USSR under Stalin killed at least 20 million people, mostly by harsh conditions in Siberian labor camps

Sadly true, but Stalin did something that the Holocaust didn't. Industrialize the nation. Do you think that Stalin would have had the USSR ready for the Nazi's without the massive slave labour industry? We owe our lives to those 35 million dead Soviets who toiled the industrial capacity of the world's second largest industrial power.

Only because I didn't want to start a new thread, on this news I just found, but it is relevant to the US been so great..

So great that our government sends young people to war, only to screw them when they get hurt in action.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/18/eveningnews/main589380.shtml

Support our troops. They really needed cause the US screws them over after they have served!!.


Godless. :rolleyes:

This is the part that kind of shocked me:

Ryan Kelley, who lost his left leg below the knee, makes about $20,000 a year as a staff sergeant. Once he leaves the army, he will receive about $8,000 a year in benefits.


In a $400 billion military, he makes less then the national average. That is poverty pay isn't it?

Originally posted by Godless
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/18/eveningnews/main589380.shtml

Support our troops. They really needed cause the US screws them over after they have served!!.

It's a matter of priorities. Helping soldiers wounded in the line of duty is obviously less important than making sure some African gets his AIDS medication.

Undecided: Being in the miltary is not my idea of a wonderful job, but remember that the $20,000 salary is almost all spending money. The army supplies food, clothes, a place to live, et cetera.

If you do not mind risking your life and taking orders, it is not a bad way to make a living. With a little luck, you can even find some interesting high tech positions and cushy assignments like NATO headquarters in Belgium. I did some consulting work at NATO many years ago and it seemed like a wonderful place for the military personnel.

I did read the topic talking about how great the U.S. is. I disagreed with that and said we had now become the world's dictator and I could see how the rest of the world hates us. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm a baboon? I won't continue the name calling which conservatives seem to do so often, but when you don't know what you are talking about, name-calling is a pretty handy tool, huh.

Being in the miltary is not my idea of a wonderful job, but remember that the $20,000 salary is almost all spending money. The army supplies food, clothes, a place to live, et cetera.


When you put it like that...but still consider he was a staff sergeant what does a normal run of the mill soldier get? These men are putting their lives on the line for their country (in theory at least) and get paid less then the $37,000 their private brethren get in the private sector? No wonder most the US soldiers aren't the “top of the crop" ;) if you know what I mean. But I find it reprehensible, when bureaucrats get paid shit loads.

If you do not mind risking your life and taking orders, it is not a bad way to make a living.

LOL, that just sounds weird.

I did some consulting work at NATO many years ago and it seemed like a wonderful place for the military personnel.

You must have been special.

On how great our country is, just as long as you are blond and blue eyes, but if you happen to look like an arab, or ME origin traveling things get a little messy; a few tales from experieces.


http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1071361744577&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724


Godless.

Do we expect more from a reactionary general public? Really racism and ignorance go together like flour and water. They need each other to survive, or to stay relevant. I mean after 9/11 did we expect ppl not to be idioticly racist?

The potential loss of civil rights for American citizens bothers me more than profiling problems at the border. Visiting the US is a privelege not a right.

Too bad American citizens don't use that logic when in other countries! That's right, Dinosaur...visiting my country is a privilege not a right. No wonder some American's try to fool others when travelling abroad by wearing a Canadian Maple Leaf on their clothes. I can see it now. Some hillbilly with a southern drawl wearing a maple leaf. Yeah, you fooled those stupid foreigners....LOL :)

Why do you think some Americans wear the Canadian T-shirt/sweathre with it's ingsinia, as to pretend he/she is from Canada?

Perhaps these people know that we are not well liked around the world, perhaps they do it so they wont be targeted, perhaps they are not too proud of our foreign policies, or perhaps they are just trying to save their ass.


Godless.

From what I have heard, Godless, it's not so much that they're not liked, but the fact that they think other countries are theirs to disrespect as well. I remember a time when I did manual labour working in a pizza joint and this guy from Jacksonville, Florida comes in. He called one of the cooks Tony, not too bright considering the size of the guy I worked with, and me Pasquali...not sure of the spelling there. Anyway, I told him point blank, if he doesn't shut his mouth I would call the cops. He said, "Why". I said, "Because you're being a fucking asshole!" Well, he apologized to me, and it's a good thing too. I was ready to take that boy outside and show him some Canadian hospitality, oops, hostility. ;)

How do you know the fucking asshole in question was from Jacksonville, Florida?

Do you think that only American customers can be rude to employees? I worked retail for a few years during high school and college and had several encounters with rude foreigners.

He stated it before he started getting mouthy. Oh, how do I know he wasn't lying? Well, considering it was the end of a festival that brings people from all over the world, mostly from the U.S. though, I would tend to believe that what he said about his residence was correct.

So the guy just walked into the restaurant and said, "Hi. I'm from Jacksonville, Florida. Now make me some food, Guido!"?

Anyway, what about my second question: Do you think only American customers can be rude? I had several years of retail experience that proves otherwise. Not that there aren't plenty of dickhead Americans, but foreigners are hardly perfect.

Originally posted by Godless
Yall liss'n here. Livin in this country is great!! That America is great, yea it is,

But the cost associate with this great life is way too high....
A couple of weeks ago, I went to Jamaica and I heard this joke...It's sad but true.

A rich American gentelman who owns a large corporation was visiting a fancy resort in Jamaica for a week like he does every year. The rich guy was looking out of his water front balcony and every morning, he sees this young Jamaican guy with a small boat. The Jamaican guy disappears in the waters for some time and around 2:00pm he comes back with one medium size fish.

The Jamaican guy did that for the entire week, and on the seventh day, the rich guy called on the young man and asked him about what he does for a living? The young man said that he owns this small boat that he uses to fish for a certain type of fish everyday. He sells the fish for $20 and he uses the money to take good care of himself and to party all night. The rich guy asked, and why don't you buy a bigger boat and more gear and try to fish 2 or 3 fish instead of one. You could make $60 dollars a day instead of $20. The rich guy continued, hell, you could save up your money and buy a bigger ship and hire more people and become a major player in the fishing industry.

The young man said, then what? The rich man said, then you can be like me and visit Jamaica once every year for a week to vacation and chill.

That joke is about values, goals and motivations, not national origin.

You could replace "American" and "Jamaican" with "Japanese" and "Tongan" and it would still make the same point.

Yeah, Galt, it's exactly what he said *sarcasm intended*

No, I cannot say all Americans are rude. And it's more than a fair assessment on your part about other peoples, but to be clear, I have heard more stories about rude Americans than rude Chinese people, Arabs, Koreans, etc.

Originally posted by norad
And it's more than a fair assessment on your part about other peoples, but to be clear, I have heard more stories about rude Americans than rude Chinese people, Arabs, Koreans, etc.

Living in Canada, I'd imagine you get more American tourists than Chinese, Arab or Korean ones. And for all the stories you hear, you have to remember that there are probably hundreds or even thousands of stories you don't hear.

People have a tendency to be abusive when in positions of power and, in the relationship between businesses and customers, customers have the power.

Just 'cause yall happened ta have met a rude dood I'aint mean evary Amurkin is a rude person when travelin abroad, yea there yearem bozos who recon so fuckin arogant thatem zis got this idea that any other country only exists ta be beli'l by us, hell that's the way the jackass in office feels at this moment, that sob did't even know wher the hell was Irag located when he was a teen, was just a drinkin too much back then ta give a shiet.


Anyhow I've had my shyear of rude Amricans, though I'aint judge the whole lot ofem by the few I've met, an' I've lived in this country since I was born an' I've had the opportunity ta meet some real nice folks as well. Specially sad married ol'ladies..hehehe.


I'aint go a judgin all Africans folks cause they happened ta have the highest rate crime in America, nor fer that matner do I judge all latinos ta be theives, even though my pickup truck was stolen in El Paso Texas, no yall kaint judge the race of a person, just 'cause yall have had a awful experience wif one ofem , that is redicoulous.




Ya reckon?


Godless.

At the risk of being accused of profiling, I hate to admit that American tourists seem to be the rudest and most arrogant. It astonishes me that almost all of them start an encounter with a native by speaking Americanese, assuming that they wil be understood.

I did a lot of traveling (at company expense) many years ago. I always learned how to speak a few words in the language of the country they sent me to. I at least knew how to ask if a person spoke english, using the native language.

BTW: There are at least a few countries (Belgium, for example) who like Americans. I spent a lot of time there and found them very friendly.

Godless: LMAO! :)

I don't bunch them together...I have met nice Americans, and to be honest, there are assholes in every country.

customers have the power


Ahhh...the customer is always right? I have news for you, the customer is not always right, and I'll be damned if I let anyone speak to me with disrespect while in my country. I don't give a shit if you're American, Chinese, or a friggin' breed from outer space. If you're in my country and you're rude to me...I'll be friggin rude right back. It's that simple. I assume if you speak to me in that manner, that that is the way you want to be spoken too...like a piece of shit.