I face reality all day long, yet there is something that is so common that I normally don't think much about it.

It's more than a sensation or a feeling, it doesn't bear the resemblence of an idea or a illusion or fantasy, rather it contradicts illusion and totally swallows me in it's ability to have the control and be unexplainable and unchangable by me.

It is.

That's the message it seems to hold. The meaning it has lasts forever.

I am used to take things in, in order to understand them. But this I can't take in, only some of it's presense allows for my evaluation, but it rather takes me in. It seems trustworthy because of that nature.

Maybe it is reality itself, just the sensation of being here. It's like water for the thirsty mind.

It seems absolute, and I thought about it and understood that I really don't need much else to feel that there is meaning where I am. It seems to hold absolute meaning. A piece of Truth. I never have to worry since it gives me meaning, it's not something that depend on me.

Do you understand what I am talking about? Have you felt it yourself?

It's a nice thing. As I believe in God, I appreciate that whatever great He created, He must be even greater, even more real. Maybe what I felt is the presense of God?

I can't say for certain, but the feeling I get from it, seem to bear the meaning itself.

Do you understand what I am talking about? Have you felt it yourself?

Yes and Yes.

It feels like you are strapped to reality but there is a part of you that feels like you can escape it (in a metaphysical sense.. not TV or video games). But you get stressed because you can't. You are stuck. Like in the movie The Matrix.

It feels like "something isn't right." All the parts don't add up to the whole. There is something else.. but you cannot put your fingers on it. I don't attribute it to "God" or whatever you want that is supernatural. But rather more or perhaps less.

Think of it like this.. you live on a 2D plane that is in a 3D world full of so much more. You are stuck in 2D but you can't help be feel there is something else out there.. bigger and more complex. Something the brain of a 2D being cannot comprehend. I'm not saying ni our 3D spatial world there is a 4D that I cannot sense, but I mean that there is something out there that makes my world come together as one piece.. whole. But since I cannot figure it out, I am stressed about it.

Right?

No.

--- Ron.If you have read some science books, and math and such, then look at the real world. There is a difference. For me there is a difference, the difference I think is that the theories and books are man-made, in a way they are only theories that men have thought up (and some women indeed), but reality is something more than this, it's something that we haven't figured out yet, and thus it is extraordinary. Also, reality has this quality of being unique and ageless, all our theories are new in respect to the answer in reality. It was here through all history, through all seasons, it's dependable and it rests here for all to see it.

But it isn't reality itself I am talking about, it's a certain aspect of it, it's hard to explain, the closest explanation would be a feeling, but it's more robust than a feeling and it doesn't seem to change or fade away, rather you fade away from it.

Yes and Yes.

It feels like you are strapped to reality but there is a part of you that feels like you can escape it (in a metaphysical sense.. not TV or video games). But you get stressed because you can't. You are stuck. Like in the movie The Matrix.

It feels like "something isn't right." All the parts don't add up to the whole. There is something else.. but you cannot put your fingers on it. I don't attribute it to "God" or whatever you want that is supernatural. But rather more or perhaps less.

Think of it like this.. you live on a 2D plane that is in a 3D world full of so much more. You are stuck in 2D but you can't help be feel there is something else out there.. bigger and more complex. Something the brain of a 2D being cannot comprehend. I'm not saying ni our 3D spatial world there is a 4D that I cannot sense, but I mean that there is something out there that makes my world come together as one piece.. whole. But since I cannot figure it out, I am stressed about it.

Right?I guess that is what I'm talking about. However as you explained it by using 2D and 3D it gives it a different feel. Instead of what I was searching for I got the impression of 4D as you were saying that you didn't mean.

I think that when you find love that the world will come together again. It doesn't necessarily have be the love of a girlfriend, but the love of people that care, the love that you yourself care, and the love of friends and family also, this makes the world come together and it is what enables me to find peace and calmness within my life.

Even when you have found all that, there is still something missing. But instead of stressed you are happy that there is. Since it gives meaning to you, and the pleasure of searching for answers that isn't crusial to you, but fun and interesting to find.

Reality as if your perception is absolute?

It doesn't have to be in a book to be "thought up". It is all thought up. The process of perception is selective, a fact known from books and from personal experience.

--- Ron.It wasn't reality as is, it was a quality of reality, and yes, I think it is absolute, the process of perception is selective, but the perception itself isn't. You really do see things, but later they can be (mis)understood as something else, this can go to the extreme if you are a unlucky character, living in a world totally of your own, where you have faded away from reality. Cause in that sense, reality is absolute and it is you that have to move.

Objective reality isn't thought up by us (if you don't think we are living in the Matrix that is), and objective becomes subjective, and the subjective has one quality of reality that has the same character of absoluteness as objective reality has, that is that it is unchangable by us, and the only way that it isn't unchangable by us, is if we move away from it and think of something else as being reality. But if you haven't felt it yourself, you probably wouldn't understand.

my brain doesn't filter anything.

I am going to play the devil's advocate and say:

It's just a feeling. Seriously. We all have "vague feelings" that mean nothing at all.

my brain doesn't filter anything.

c.f.

How Do Brains Filter Data?

Salk Institute teams gain insight into how synapses separate important neural messages from background noise.

http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2006/07/how_do_brains_filter_data.php



--- Ron.

Do you understand what I am talking about?

It sounds like you might be experiencing some combination of psychological need and a relationship with yourself.


Have you felt it yourself?


Well without knowing exactly what you felt I can't say. What I can say is that I've had many ultra-fantastic experiences that are utterly alien by comparison to every day life.


Maybe what I felt is the presense of God?


Maybe it was the zaboombafoo dimension?

Yes and Yes.

It feels like you are strapped to reality but there is a part of you that feels like you can escape it (in a metaphysical sense.. not TV or video games). But you get stressed because you can't. You are stuck. Like in the movie The Matrix.

It feels like "something isn't right." All the parts don't add up to the whole. There is something else.. but you cannot put your fingers on it. I don't attribute it to "God" or whatever you want that is supernatural. But rather more or perhaps less.

Think of it like this.. you live on a 2D plane that is in a 3D world full of so much more. You are stuck in 2D but you can't help be feel there is something else out there.. bigger and more complex. Something the brain of a 2D being cannot comprehend. I'm not saying ni our 3D spatial world there is a 4D that I cannot sense, but I mean that there is something out there that makes my world come together as one piece.. whole. But since I cannot figure it out, I am stressed about it.

Right?

One of these elusive zephyrs being the perpendicular motion of all things 3-dimensional, constituting an ever experienced, ever non recognized 4th dimension of time, motion and gravity. Refer http://forums.delphiforums.com/EinsteinGroupie

I am going to play the devil's advocate and say:

It's just a feeling. Seriously. We all have "vague feelings" that mean nothing at all.But it isn't vague. It is real, in a different way than ordinary feelings. It's not sufficient to call it a feeling.

It sounds like you might be experiencing some combination of psychological need and a relationship with yourself.It's not a need. No characteristic of it is needful.

Am I experiancing a relationship with myself?

Hmmm...

I'm me. In what way can I have a relationship with myself?

I allways relate to me. Me is me, it is the base for relating, not something to relate to...I can relate my thoughts to thoughts of others, I can similiarily relate my beliefs to the beliefs of others, my views on things to the views of others, I can also relate what I know now, to what I've known before. Or whatever other relation there may be. But the present me, cannot be related to the present me, since it is me (absolute in a sense).

I can think of myself in terms of good and bad and such, that may be a way to have a relationship with myself, but only through other means. Not me relating to me, but me relating to good and bad and such.

The feeling, is not simply a relationship with myself, even though I can relate to it in different ways to gather some of its meaning.






Well without knowing exactly what you felt I can't say. What I can say is that I've had many ultra-fantastic experiences that are utterly alien by comparison to every day life.Yes, but this isn't alien by comparison to every day life. It's allways there, giving meaning and strength, since it is meaningful and strong.



Maybe it was the zaboombafoo dimension?I can't relate to that.

Too long words, I'll just skip to what I have to say..

The mind only uses very little of the sense data we receive. The rest we ignore as useless. This can be proved simply by reading any comic (well "any"..). The lines seen are all the mind reads of the real world. Assimilating any more data would bind up brain-resources, making us dumber (might be the reason why some are smart and some are dumb... I dunno). I think the presence of Reality can be felt when you Stop and Look. Observe instead of projecting your models towards reality. It can be somewhat overwhelming. Is this what you meant?

Or did you mean that reality feels "wrong", somehow. Or you know reality is right but...

I've got this since I was five (or young, anyway). Ever since there's been a "There must be more to life than this!" in my head (metaphorically..). The way I see it, you observe actions (cause and effect) you cannot comprehend, or look at the world and something feels wrong. This is a realization that you cannot explain all phenomenon, that your models (in your head) do not match reality. The "something wrong" is a mistake or error in your perception. You've experienced something that does not fit into the way your world works, or everything around you chirps of the discrepancy between your inner model of the world and the world.

In Matrix this was reverse; The "real" world did not match the model in Neo's head. In our case it might be more safe to assume the model in your head is mismatched with the real. The choice is really the same; shape your models, admit you were wrong, or pretend everything is cool and just forget about it. It might take very radical change to get it right, but the other option is really just scrap your natural ability to discern truth, that is to doubt your own ability of perception.

Is this what you meant?

Too long words, I'll just skip to what I have to say..

The mind only uses very little of the sense data we receive. The rest we ignore as useless. This can be proved simply by reading any comic (well "any"..). The lines seen are all the mind reads of the real world. Assimilating any more data would bind up brain-resources, making us dumber (might be the reason why some are smart and some are dumb... I dunno). I think the presence of Reality can be felt when you Stop and Look. Observe instead of projecting your models towards reality. It can be somewhat overwhelming. Is this what you meant?Yes, that is what I meant :)

When looking out on the world, it can't be compared to any view you have "inside", but the presence of the real world before your eyes is this overwhelming meaningful feeling I get. It's not just that I see reality before me, it's that it carries some kind of 'feeling' with it, that is utterly meaningful, it can't be doubted and can't be tampered with. I don't know what it actually is, but I guess that it is the feeling of seeing something that you believe in absolutly, it can't be compromised.




Or did you mean that reality feels "wrong", somehow. Or you know reality is right but...

I've got this since I was five (or young, anyway). Ever since there's been a "There must be more to life than this!" in my head (metaphorically..). The way I see it, you observe actions (cause and effect) you cannot comprehend, or look at the world and something feels wrong. This is a realization that you cannot explain all phenomenon, that your models (in your head) do not match reality. The "something wrong" is a mistake or error in your perception. You've experienced something that does not fit into the way your world works, or everything around you chirps of the discrepancy between your inner model of the world and the world.I see what you mean, I've had this too, that maybe my inner model don't match reality. Even in the simplest of terms we often fail to describe reality for what it is.

But reality doesn't talk against my ideas, rather it doesn't talk for any single one, rather it accepts that I make up my own mind on the matter of things.



In Matrix this was reverse; The "real" world did not match the model in Neo's head. In our case it might be more safe to assume the model in your head is mismatched with the real. The choice is really the same; shape your models, admit you were wrong, or pretend everything is cool and just forget about it. It might take very radical change to get it right, but the other option is really just scrap your natural ability to discern truth, that is to doubt your own ability of perception.

Is this what you meant?( what I meant was what you said before, about the overwhelming feeling that you get when simply observing reality for what it is ), however I see what you mean with what you wrote here too, we all have to shape our own ideas of things, but there are concepts that for a individual are fundamental, and which the other ideas (in my view) must fit with, sometimes I can get this insight that an idea seems particularly compatible with reality and my "fundamentals", these insights are really comforting to learn from.

I think to some level that everyone has it's share of the truth, but that we get clouded by so many other concepts and ideas that we find it hard to see our truth.

A mental picture came to me one day when I was sitting at a bus, about how people covet whatever they know. I just imagined a kid, holding a toy to his chest, saying "you can't take it away!" and looking deifant. All the while he'd be surrounded by tons of toys..

People fear losing what little wisdom they have, because then they'd be REALLY alone and helpless. What they need to realize is that truth is always inclusive, you can't lose what you already have. Courage is what's really required. (Though people do hold meaningless things as meaningful, too...)

I'm getting another one now. About how people go "Aha, I know you now!" and point a finger at the world victorious. The world grins, shrugs and says "wow". Or maybe nothing at all. (he'd be all benevolent, although some might think of him as mocking..)

Oh, and everything fits when properly understood.

A mental picture came to me one day when I was sitting at a bus, about how people covet whatever they know. I just imagined a kid, holding a toy to his chest, saying "you can't take it away!" and looking deifant. All the while he'd be surrounded by tons of toys..I thought once that it was because of greed. The need to allways have more than he has, and the unwillingness to let go of what he has.

A miniature form of wanting to "conquer the world" by getting more and more influence without loosing any that he previously had.

The reality of it CAN be that complex, but often it is just because of the fear of loosing what little they perceive they have.

We all get to learn to appreciate what you have, but many don't keep that lesson, and forget that they are in fact very lucky to have what they got.

When this is forgotten, the "short term" belongings becomes very important, since they don't see the "long term" as they got used to it. It seems to them (I think) that the "short term" belongings are the only belongings they got (this includes toys, as in your example), therefor the strive to keep it that way.

To some persons, this is realised, but the importance of the toy isn't surrendered, since any person is very reluctant to change their view on things, and it seems that maybe pride is holding them back from changing the view to the appropriate one (therefor the defiant look (no arguments could ever make them change their mind, cause they allready know that they have taking the wrong view, if you can't make up an argument that isn't in conflict with his pride that is)).




People fear losing what little wisdom they have, because then they'd be REALLY alone and helpless. What they need to realize is that truth is always inclusive, you can't lose what you already have. Courage is what's really required. (Though people do hold meaningless things as meaningful, too...)Hence wisdom comes into the category of "long term" (in my "theory", however that term is loose since this "theory" is based on my actual life experiance (which is of course also "long term")).

We have to learn to let things be, we don't go around constantly thinking of how we move our finger, wisdom works that way too, we don't allways have to go around making ourselves wise. Wisdom works, moving a finger works. It simply does (that isn't to say that we shouldn't learn wise things, sure we can move a finger, but can we play a piano without training?)

There are allways some principles, that we shouldn't let be compromised, these principles are in some ways fundamental in us, it may happen that at a later time, these principles becomes less fundamental, and can be compromised, but that happens naturally when we have security in our principles so that the principle is covered in other ways (as I understand it), in other terms, we have found a better view on things.


I'm getting another one now. About how people go "Aha, I know you now!" and point a finger at the world victorious. The world grins, shrugs and says "wow". Or maybe nothing at all. (he'd be all benevolent, although some might think of him as mocking..)What I think is really happening, is that he get's a insight on how he relates to the world. The world is pretty big, it's hard to fully know everything of how the world knows. However, each principle found, is very very important (when it is felt as a 'real' principle, at work in the actual reality), as it is almost like magic, one of the magical strings that make up the world. I mean, how could you not be in awe of finding just the tiniest of these principles.

Oh, and everything fits when properly understood.I agree, it is also one of the reasons that even tiny principles are very important, as we know that they fit with the bigger ones.

Perception itself is selective, literally. To avoid overload the brain filters the input.

c.f. synesthesia and hallucination.


--- Ron.Yes, you are of course correct in that sense. If some part of reality is replaced by other things, then it can be really really nasty. Like a blogg sitting at the the place vision would normally occur, you close your eyes and it is there yet! Arrgh...

Must be pretty frustrating, and very frightning. Like "don't you understand the importance of me getting reality????". I guess it's hard to argue against a blogg...

Hence the importance of never getting one in the first place, since they can appear to be rather devious (even evil, though they probably never have that expression...and if they had, oh man...).

I think that once you get a blogg, it must be really hard to return to reality, it seems impossible I think. But then again, sometimes things seem impossible, but it works out anyway.

However, this has really no importance in the sake of my thread. Perception change, perception is fluid (in a way), however, it carries with it, some qualia of reality. That what you see is reality. This "qualia" is less appearent sometimes, but sometimes it is what only matters at the moment, as I said, it gives meaning, because it is meaningful, and it gives strength because it is strong, and I think that a person could survive (in the sense of having meaning) in that qualia alone, as it bears meaning in itself and radiates it.

In that sense, there are a world of meaning, inside a single leaf, fullfilling the need for meaning. Which is (I think) the basic need for us in order to accept our situation.

Cyperium,
I have this theory about Moments of Despair. Obviously this happens when your world crumbles and you realize that you have no idea why stuff happens. You distrust all your models, and the world seems incomprehensible. This is one time when people actually listen, but are so easily complitely brainwashed, they grab the first thing they don't doubt and hold to that in complete terror to hold the despair back.

One of these times is when people grow up. See, adults know everything, and kids don't have to learn anything; The parents will always take care of them. Then you're 18 and suddenly you don't know anything. Despair closes in from all sides, and you get pretty scared. Then something, anything that seems true, pops up from somewhere, and people sort of cling to it like a light in the dark. But you remain afraid to look for anything else, in case you lose this little you have gained.

So, when you seem to yourself as weak, you grow stronger through any means that do not require "a look in the mirror", so to speak. By gathering influence and money and friends and so forth.

The world is pretty big, it's hard to fully know everything of how the world knows.
I rather meant how reality just shrugs when you think you know something. There is no real change in the bottom line of reality. There's no chimes or trumphets when you learn something, like it wasn't an achievement but just doing what you were supposed to do (so long time ago..).

Perception itself is selective, literally.

Just thought I'd say that brain doesn't filter sense data, just the meaning of it. We PERCEIVE the world, but the brain creates categories like "a TV", "a Button" etc, so we actually perceive the functional world.

Ever had the feeling that you're seeing the world, but can't make sense of it, like you see the bag, but can't recognize it as such? Like everything was strange, like you just saw it the first time?

Cyperium,
I have this theory about Moments of Despair. Obviously this happens when your world crumbles and you realize that you have no idea why stuff happens. You distrust all your models, and the world seems incomprehensible. This is one time when people actually listen, but are so easily complitely brainwashed, they grab the first thing they don't doubt and hold to that in complete terror to hold the despair back.

One of these times is when people grow up. See, adults know everything, and kids don't have to learn anything; The parents will always take care of them. Then you're 18 and suddenly you don't know anything. Despair closes in from all sides, and you get pretty scared. Then something, anything that seems true, pops up from somewhere, and people sort of cling to it like a light in the dark. But you remain afraid to look for anything else, in case you lose this little you have gained.

So, when you seem to yourself as weak, you grow stronger through any means that do not require "a look in the mirror", so to speak. By gathering influence and money and friends and so forth.Yes.

You are very right.

Ponder this situation:

Everything you have learnt and know about, makes no difference, and can't help you, since you have lost the ability to understand it, then you take out the book of wisdom, only to discover you have lost the ability to read, then you gather all your belongings and discover you have lost the ability to appreciate them. Everything falls apart. What good does anything do without our abilities to understand and appreciate them?

The safety of our abilities to do things makes us do things that would only count by the abilities themselves. Since it is by ability that we move the hand, think the thought, remember the memory, understand the basics.

I wonder what this fear is based on. Perhaps it is the fear of getting lost, or the fear of loosing control? You have had the safety of your parents to cover for you, and you have wondered how they can make it through all those situations. Suddenly you stand there yourself, in their place, supposed to walk their shoes. It's here the abilities make their breakthrough.

Cause by the same rule you move your hand, by the same rule can you get through all those situations your parents did. You never "learned" how to move your hand, rather you got the ability to do it.

I learnt a new bodily ability when I was rather old. That was the ability to move my ears. The ability came with a sense of great freedom. I was free to move my ears. It wasn't that I had to learn something, it was like a hinder was taken away. The door just opened, and I was forever free to walk through it whenever I wanted (that isn't to say that it can never close, but now I can't imagine how that is ever done).

A new ability is so integral to you, that it's something that is actually a part of you. You can feel joy that it is a part of you, you can relate to it in ways like if you were given somethings inner secret (cause in some way you have, it's inner secret is somehow a part of you).

So, what I have learned is that whenever you come into a situation, there is a way to deal with it, and the ability to do that, is often the result of the years of experiance that you have in life. Cause however safe you have been in the past, when it comes to the real deal, you've got more resources than you might think. I guess the method is to use what you've got, you (not necessarily you Ogmios) mustn't expect yourself to do more than you got!

The false expectations of themselves that people may have, are often their greatest hinder of actually achieving appreciable results.

And, it may seem that you are alone at 18, standing there on your own, but you aren't, your parents still probably see you as this stumbling child you were :) so don't worry about that. Also, don't forget that there are all sorts of people out there, alot of who can understand what you are going through, and help you when you feel scared or lost.

I just want to add that when I say "you" in this post, it doesn't necessarily mean "you Ogmios" :) I understand that you may talk of experiance which you are now past.

Nice to see someone bringing this up in that easy manner.


I rather meant how reality just shrugs when you think you know something. There is no real change in the bottom line of reality. There's no chimes or trumphets when you learn something, like it wasn't an achievement but just doing what you were supposed to do (so long time ago..).Of course reality isn't going to praise me for understanding it's concepts. But the feeling I get personally when realising I have stumbled into something very important is often in the likeness of trumphets and chimes :).

I face reality all day long, yet there is something that is so common that I normally don't think much about it.

It's more than a sensation or a feeling, it doesn't bear the resemblence of an idea or a illusion or fantasy, rather it contradicts illusion and totally swallows me in it's ability to have the control and be unexplainable and unchangable by me.

It is.

That's the message it seems to hold. The meaning it has lasts forever.

I am used to take things in, in order to understand them. But this I can't take in, only some of it's presense allows for my evaluation, but it rather takes me in. It seems trustworthy because of that nature.

Maybe it is reality itself, just the sensation of being here. It's like water for the thirsty mind.

It seems absolute, and I thought about it and understood that I really don't need much else to feel that there is meaning where I am. It seems to hold absolute meaning. A piece of Truth. I never have to worry since it gives me meaning, it's not something that depend on me.

Do you understand what I am talking about? Have you felt it yourself?

It's a nice thing. As I believe in God, I appreciate that whatever great He created, He must be even greater, even more real. Maybe what I felt is the presense of God?

I can't say for certain, but the feeling I get from it, seem to bear the meaning itself.

The way I see it, you are describing concentration.
Something plain, but very powerful.

Cyperium,
I have this theory about Moments of Despair. Obviously this happens when your world crumbles and you realize that you have no idea why stuff happens. You distrust all your models, and the world seems incomprehensible. This is one time when people actually listen, but are so easily complitely brainwashed, they grab the first thing they don't doubt and hold to that in complete terror to hold the despair back.

I recognise that.

I have seen it happen at times of crisis, the vulnerability to suggestion, and experienced it myself.

It also happens with relationships, when a woman rejected by a man she loved runs off hand in hand with the first thing that comes along, like a new born duckling follows the first thing that moves in the hope of it being the mother.

--- Ron.

Yes but can you find peace in the incomprehensible?

Perhaps this is the ultimate spiritual challenge eh? Shit I dunno, but I'm okay with not knowing! :)

Reality is imagination.

you were experiencing a feeling?

The way I see it, you are describing concentration.
Something plain, but very powerful.No it's not concentration. There is two forms of concentration, one is when you don't have to struggle with it, you have focus anyway, you may call it "light concentration", then there is this concentration that you have to struggle to get, where you have to focus really hard, this may be called "heavy concentration".

What I experiance is more similiar to "light concentration" since I don't have to struggle to experiance it, rather I have to let go and just see reality (not on a regular basis though, but it comes when you are in certain situations, even though it's there all along).

I think a part of this feeling is the sensation you get when you are philosophical and look at stars in the sky.

No it's not concentration. There is two forms of concentration, one is when you don't have to struggle with it, you have focus anyway, you may call it "light concentration", then there is this concentration that you have to struggle to get, where you have to focus really hard, this may be called "heavy concentration".

What I experiance is more similiar to "light concentration" since I don't have to struggle to experiance it, rather I have to let go and just see reality (not on a regular basis though, but it comes when you are in certain situations, even though it's there all along).

I think a part of this feeling is the sensation you get when you are philosophical and look at stars in the sky.

Then that is more like zoning out. It can feel like a very refined state of consciousness.

Perception itself is selective, literally. To avoid overload the brain filters the input.

c.f. synesthesia and hallucination.


--- Ron.

Do you believe that perception is possibly the one thing that determines behavior? It involves the mind, body, and their perceptions of stimuli. This in turn makes us decide how to respond.

Hi water, nice to see ya back!

Oh, I'VE never felt that, of course :P It's just my explanation to the fear, or why people are not as good as me :) I've always sorta looked reality in the eye and dare it to come over here and do something. So I don't get the sorta world-crumbling-away, more like the constant fear of messing something up. I don't build my castles on no beaches, where they might crumble.. (Thanks anyway)

And, uh, umm, I was refering to some more conscious existential problems. Like "understanding how the world works". Not like "Conscious of my consciousness", that doesn't really become urgent untill you've answered the lower strata of the world.

I wonder what this fear is based on.

Normal, simple survival horror. "how will I live!?" It's like being in a room with several spinning and flying objects; If you can't figure out where they go and when, you'll eventually get hit. Or just how to get your food. And so forth. If you don't know how the world works, you'll make it angry and get killed. If you realize all you know is wrong, you despair (it is distinguished from fear or panic etc). I think babies cry because they don't understand what's going on. Or at least crying is associated to despair. (If you're JUST sad, you're just sad. But things like that also raises other questions (like mortality, or how will I survive without him/her/it..)).

But some people will just make do with an illusion of safety instead of actually learning how the world works. I think some buddhist said it best with "There is no shelter except for Enlightnment", but I forget stuff. The despair just hounds you until you turn around and admit you're a fool. Then follows a time of learning, possibly stressful or painful, but after that follows the REAL freedom and peace, when the mind is calm of all things.

What I experiance is more similiar to "light concentration" since I don't have to struggle to experiance it, rather I have to let go and just see reality (not on a regular basis though, but it comes when you are in certain situations, even though it's there all along).

I think some other buddhist said that we should concentrate on "nothing". Which means not to concentrate, sure, but to be focused about it. Not to focus but to see all. Any help?

you were experiencing a feeling?Any feeling is more than a feeling for the subjected.

Then that is more like zoning out. It can feel like a very refined state of consciousness. One time when I "zoned out" at the stars they appeared three dimensional.

That isn't the feeling I get though, simply observing reality for what it is described it best. Fullfilling the need for meaning. Without any interfering feelings (if you had any they would be romanticised and your focus will be at them instead), staying "online" will give this sensation I talked about, where reality itself bears a kind of silent meaning.

Reality is imagination.Reality has a place for imagination, and reality has a place in imagination.

Oh, I'VE never felt that, of course :P It's just my explanation to the fear, or why people are not as good as me :) I've always sorta looked reality in the eye and dare it to come over here and do something. So I don't get the sorta world-crumbling-away, more like the constant fear of messing something up. I don't build my castles on no beaches, where they might crumble.. (Thanks anyway)

[quote]And, uh, umm, I was refering to some more conscious existential problems. Like "understanding how the world works". Not like "Conscious of my consciousness", that doesn't really become urgent untill you've answered the lower strata of the world.Of course. First we got to survive. It's like waiting for play in order to eat.



Normal, simple survival horror. "how will I live!?" It's like being in a room with several spinning and flying objects; If you can't figure out where they go and when, you'll eventually get hit. Or just how to get your food. And so forth. If you don't know how the world works, you'll make it angry and get killed. If you realize all you know is wrong, you despair (it is distinguished from fear or panic etc). I think babies cry because they don't understand what's going on. Or at least crying is associated to despair. (If you're JUST sad, you're just sad. But things like that also raises other questions (like mortality, or how will I survive without him/her/it..)).Right, again.

There are parallell fears, we have survival fears, and existential fears.

I think that the survival fears (how to get food, etc.) transforms into the existential fears (what will happen when I die, etc.). Since the survival fears eventually goes away (if you have a home, that is, and later on a job (but since there are some safety nets in society the fear of "how to get food" shouldn't be a problem (but of course certainly is in other parts of the world, and with homeless people etc.))

Maybe when we finally got rid of the "food problem" we didn't loose the fear, but it turned into the "fear of death problem" or whatever problem can have replaced it. This was probably not realised at the time, but rather we (or some...or just I) might have thought that getting rid of problems didn't work to solve the fear. (the same fear can mask itself to cover many problems, so the fear doesn't go away when we solve just one of the problems)


But some people will just make do with an illusion of safety instead of actually learning how the world works. I think some buddhist said it best with "There is no shelter except for Enlightnment", but I forget stuff. The despair just hounds you until you turn around and admit you're a fool. Then follows a time of learning, possibly stressful or painful, but after that follows the REAL freedom and peace, when the mind is calm of all things.Admitting faults is a first step of course (for internal honesty), do you think it is necessary to admit it to others? I think that it might be necessary, in order to solve the mis-trust of oneself, but in one sense I think that it may not be necessary if you find inner trust and pray.



I think some other buddhist said that we should concentrate on "nothing". Which means not to concentrate, sure, but to be focused about it. Not to focus but to see all. Any help?Well, that is a more complex feeling, as what they think is nothing is really a myriad of methods in order to stretch itself to gather it all. I don't mean to be rude to them. But when in deep meditation we are not getting nearer to nothing, as is with dreams anything empty will be filled through various impulses, enlightment cannot be triggered through meditation, as enlightment really is light, and clear, shiny! Not blurred or "nothing" or any kind of hallucination. Enlightment is a feeling of itself, and it has probably to be reached through life, that is through the journey of life. Meditation can help with peace of mind, though, and meditation can probably help you through the journey, and also help you get the motivation of having enlightment.

I like this thread, i like where its going.
Ive had these kinds of feelings too, i think these feelings arrise when youre most in sync with your environment. I believe these hard-to-explain feelings are our ancient prehistoric way of thinking, its visceral thought that plugs you straight into whats going on.
Some of the most profound thoughts ive ever had have come to me via an incredibly strange feeling, which at the time feels like youve just experienced a new colour.
Feelings <3

I think some other buddhist said that we should concentrate on "nothing"
Eh, it contains a witty mind-game I thought you might catch (as it sounds stupid explained..). You see to concentrate on something is to focus somewhere. To concentrate on nothing is to not foucs, but to broaden your mind. Ah-HA! I mean you can't really concentrate on NOTHING. When you don't concentrate your mind, it's free to think whatever it wills without the ego telling it what it can and can't think of. It's one of those things..

"fear of death problem"
Seems to me illogical or unnecessary (Sorry:)). It's more, like the more you know, the safer you are. The less you know, the worse you'll survive. Even if we have solved hunger and predators, the same drive drives us, to know even more. I think some people might be ready to just sit down, if everyone else just would, but some of us persist in knowing EVERYTHING. To gain ultimate power.

Also, clergy and rulers and all other types of people keep telling that those that are not pure, will not survive. "Deadly sins" for example. Seek power or glory or enlightnment or be destroyed. They are right, of course. Having solved natural problems we now face a world we might just destroy through neglectence. Wars etc. We are SAFE, but we tend to endanger ourselves. "If I'm not useful to the society it will throw me away!" It's the same fear.

New fear, to me, is the Cthulu kind of fear. Something that should not be is. This clearly proves that all we know is nothing and we are in the same danger we were yesterday.

Kind of like... Imagine yourself in a jungle. You know the paths and patterns of predators and preys, and can survive. You have shelter and furs to survive. Everything is A-OK.

Then some predator (like a lion) meets you totally outside his territory, or in the wrong phase of day. This totally questions your view of world; If this is possible, maybe all I knew for certain was wrong. Maybe I was not safe at all, and the world changed. Caught unprepared you die instantly (for some unknown reason :)).

As long as you understand how world really works, you can prepare for every change and hence survive. But if you're wrong, a sudden change (like the climate suddenly going ping-pong) could kill you. This is the strongest fear; that all our preparations were for naught, as in reality you were WRONG. Instant death by the unknown.

This here explains why people hate change, and anything which proves what they already know as wrong. The big mistake is, of course, to bury your head deeper in the sand. But it makes the fear disappear, so they're happy.

And also explains why everybody (like the chinise and the romans and the indians) seeks the unchanging, the eternal and the immortal. "The one true thing that never changes" is present in every religion in the world (I exagerate, of course..).

Admitting faults is a first step of course (for internal honesty), do you think it is necessary to admit it to others?
Well, no in the context spoken. But while I myself have foolishly harboured all my thoughts, it's usually easier to discover your faults by letting others laugh at them. To speak your mind is a fast way to shape them. Of course, one must maintain a sense of self or ego, to make your own mind, as to avoid any slave-like herd-minding. Unnecessary but useful, as long as you remember what your own voice sounds like. (And why do anything the easy way..)

Feelings <3
Emotions are the quick-reference of the mind. Think with words and be slow but sure. Think with thoughts and be quick but closed. Think with emotions and be so quick you'll go the wrong way, backtrace and still have enough time to overtake anyone else in the room.

Eh, it contains a witty mind-game I thought you might catch (as it sounds stupid explained..). You see to concentrate on something is to focus somewhere. To concentrate on nothing is to not foucs, but to broaden your mind. Ah-HA! I mean you can't really concentrate on NOTHING. When you don't concentrate your mind, it's free to think whatever it wills without the ego telling it what it can and can't think of. It's one of those things..I see what you mean :), I caught the mind-game (though what is interesting is that they think they are approaching 'nothing' and hence what they think is 'enlightment' while instead they are clogging up the light, and approaching ignorance (of the world around them).

To not think, is to gather.
To think is to solve what is gathered.

To not think, and focus, is to find what you want to gather.
To think, and focus, is to find what you want to solve.

This applies only to the context which it is in, of course thoughts can be used for alot of other things.


Therefor if one wants enlightment from 'nothing', then they have to solve a great many impulses, which if successfull still leaves them with the thought itself.

There is a balance here of course, the thoughts have a limit to their density, so at any time you haven't lost anything, still haven't got anything more.

The way in which we have to search for enlightment is first of all a inner definition in any way of the term enlightment (could be as simply as a imaginary feeling of what it must be like), then you have to want it (if you believe in God, you should pray for it).

If it is meaningful for you to get enlightment, then you will probably have it (since you search for what is meaningful for you (not necessarily to you though)).







Seems to me illogical or unnecessary (Sorry:)). It's more, like the more you know, the safer you are. The less you know, the worse you'll survive. Even if we have solved hunger and predators, the same drive drives us, to know even more. I think some people might be ready to just sit down, if everyone else just would, but some of us persist in knowing EVERYTHING. To gain ultimate power.Perhaps because of the wanted ability to forsee what you need to know? Or just cover all possibilities of the unforseen?

Also, clergy and rulers and all other types of people keep telling that those that are not pure, will not survive. "Deadly sins" for example. Seek power or glory or enlightnment or be destroyed. They are right, of course. Having solved natural problems we now face a world we might just destroy through neglectence. Wars etc. We are SAFE, but we tend to endanger ourselves. "If I'm not useful to the society it will throw me away!" It's the same fear.Hmmm, I guess that without the danger of the world, we have to face the danger from within, and the consequences one might have if being outcast (that is the inner-consequences, cause we all want to feel a part of something, true? What worse than being outcast then?)

No wonder gangs are so successfull.

No wonder drugs are so successfull (they share a world of their own).

The fear of being apart.

What is it to be part then? Love.

Society has no wonder.

It has a back alley of fear and darkness, a staircase of dust leading to vain.

The glimpses of hope for people in despair comes from people in despair.

Cause we know that they are thinking of it.

Maybe we don't know enough, maybe we don't know how to give hope to those that need it while not being in despair ourselves.

Faults bind people together, cause they search after the people with the same problem, instead of searching after people with the same abilities (to perhaps solve the problem), but no, the blind is leading the blind and they both fall into the pit.

There are alternatives of course, society is huge, but it's sometimes very hard to find. We must keep trying though, cause there is no other way.


New fear, to me, is the Cthulu kind of fear. Something that should not be is.

This clearly proves that all we know is nothing and we are in the same danger we were yesterday.

Kind of like... Imagine yourself in a jungle. You know the paths and patterns of predators and preys, and can survive. You have shelter and furs to survive. Everything is A-OK.

Then some predator (like a lion) meets you totally outside his territory, or in the wrong phase of day. This totally questions your view of world; If this is possible, maybe all I knew for certain was wrong. Maybe I was not safe at all, and the world changed. Caught unprepared you die instantly (for some unknown reason :)).

As long as you understand how world really works, you can prepare for every change and hence survive. But if you're wrong, a sudden change (like the climate suddenly going ping-pong) could kill you. This is the strongest fear; that all our preparations were for naught, as in reality you were WRONG. Instant death by the unknown.

This here explains why people hate change, and anything which proves what they already know as wrong. The big mistake is, of course, to bury your head deeper in the sand. But it makes the fear disappear, so they're happy.

And also explains why everybody (like the chinise and the romans and the indians) seeks the unchanging, the eternal and the immortal. "The one true thing that never changes" is present in every religion in the world (I exagerate, of course..).It's a fear of the instability of oneself. You are afraid to take a look, cause you are afraid of what you can find (even if it was calm), the solution is of course to be calm yourself, only then can you look (otherwise you would not be yourself, and be scared out of your bones).

There is of course the hope of having a stability outside of oneself, a stability to help you if you fall. Something that never change, and is eternal and immortal. So that you never get lost again.




Well, no in the context spoken. But while I myself have foolishly harboured all my thoughts, it's usually easier to discover your faults by letting others laugh at them. To speak your mind is a fast way to shape them. Of course, one must maintain a sense of self or ego, to make your own mind, as to avoid any slave-like herd-minding. Unnecessary but useful, as long as you remember what your own voice sounds like. (And why do anything the easy way..)I understand what you mean, with understanding and friendly people that is a preffered method.

So glad we agree.

To not think, is to gather.
To think is to solve what is gathered.
Wow. Smart.

The fear of being apart.

What is it to be part then? Love.

Society has no wonder.

It has a back alley of fear and darkness, a staircase of dust leading to vain.

The glimpses of hope for people in despair comes from people in despair.

Cause we know that they are thinking of it.
As consequence, so many people these days say love cures everything, and tells to love everything. I think this is rather counter-productive; If you love faults, others don't know what to change. And with that thought..
understanding and friendly people that is a preffered method.
To my experience, friendly people tend to support who you are, and what you think, instead of truthfully baring all things wrong with you. Which is nice, as some support at the hardest game is prefered.

But "the only way to get smarter is to play the smarter opponent". All wars (well, "all"..) are a result of trying to sculpt other people of their faults. Hostility and fighting are often more useful in the pursuit of perfection; People who disagree with you propably know something you don't. To fight is stupid, but it is the simplest and an option always available.

So glad we agree.Me too.


Wow. Smart.Thank you. (takes one to see one)


As consequence, so many people these days say love cures everything, and tells to love everything. I think this is rather counter-productive; If you love faults, others don't know what to change. And with that thought..Yes, we shouldn't love faults, rather accept the ones that we can't change.

There is a prayer that goes like this (free translation):

"Give me peace of mind to accept what I cannot change, courage to change what I can, and understanding to know the difference."



To my experience, friendly people tend to support who you are, and what you think, instead of truthfully baring all things wrong with you. Which is nice, as some support at the hardest game is prefered.Which is what a friend should, however, a friend should also point out something in a friendly way that they perceive can be bad for you (which to my experiance, most people do, some may show it in less obvious ways as they may have trouble saying it directly, which might be good, and might be bad, if you have a problem that you haven't noticed yourself, then you want at least a sign of it so you can change, however, if the signs are subtle in a way that make you suspect they are talking about you behind your back, then they are doing it the wrong way (it should never have to come to that if you have nice friends). Though, if the signs are subtle in a way that tells you "I want you to deal with this, but I don't want/dare to confront you with it", (some are afraid of confrontations, and some might just want to tell it to you without risking hurting you), then I think it is nice, even preffered, much depending on the persons involved, including what kind of person you are (if you are easily triggered, then people will probably go for the subtle way, if any...).





But "the only way to get smarter is to play the smarter opponent". All wars (well, "all"..) are a result of trying to sculpt other people of their faults. Hostility and fighting are often more useful in the pursuit of perfection; People who disagree with you propably know something you don't. To fight is stupid, but it is the simplest and an option always available.I don't entirely agree with this. There are situations when fighting (logically or physically) is unavoidable, but in other situations I think it is best to pursue other ways of knowing things, like, for example, talking about what he thinks about things, this person that disagree with you, things that perhaps matters to the subject he disagrees to, so as to find why your views are different. I mean, to my experiance, fighting CAN lead to knowledge, but what I get from peacefully pursuing a "truth" or a knowledge, is much more and better (as it isn't stained with remorce or self-satisfaction).