From BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4901892.stm)

During a festival held in honour of the Prophet Muhammad a bunch of Muslims celebrated.

The sad thing is some Muslims at the festival (namely some Shia) were celebrating their killing of about 57 other Muslims (namely Sunni).

A couple comments

1) These Muslims are killing fellow Muslims over a disagreement in the interpretation of the “prefect book” (yeah I know oxymoronic but true nonetheless). Can you imagine what it must be like living as a Buddhist or Hindi (or god forgive a Jew) in this lovely Islamic ruled land? Says something doesn’t it?

2) Now surely, surely this is an example of Islamic inspired hatred that can not be blamed on Jews or Hindu’s or Xians or America but must be laid at the foot of Islam?

3) Here is a prime example of 1400 years of Islamic inspired non-enlightenment and, similarly to Communism, the lack of improvement in peoples lives over a millenia is itself evidence and proof enough of its failure. At least the Communists figured it out after 50 years.

4) You know what the Islamic Apologist says? They need to spread Islam over the entire World and only then it will work properly?!?!?! What kind of reasoning is that? Shinto/Buddhist Japan is already doing very well and has zero Mosques and only a handful of oil-rich Atheist Muslims and that’s it.

And one wonders why the ME is in such a mess. These bombings don’t even surprise Muslims themselves anymore.

My vote is that because of the continued violence in Islamic countries therefore Islam is occult.


Michael



Incidentally these Islamic inspired killings were occurring centuries before the European colonization of the ME. The great Chinese Muslim voyager Zheng He wrote about the violence between Muslim sects and also between Muslims and Hindi and Buddhits during his great travels (including his last one to Mecca). And he was a Chinese Muslim!

Well, yeah, and protestants and catholics were flinging poo and mass murdering each other and jews and muslims and whoever else they could get their hands on. It's only recently that people of other religions have been treated better in christian countries than muslim ones.

It's also common that "heretics" are treated worse than "pagans". Even John Locke wrote that every faith, and he specifically mentions muslims, should be tolerated.... except Catholicism, which is to be considered treason :p

Long before Protestant Christianity even existed, there were the Crusades against where Christian soldiers murdered Muslims and Jews in the Middle East (and along the way...)

And other christians in Byzantium. And also gnostic christians in Europe.

Muslims are now going through the middle ages phase in their mental development.

Like all human beings, Muslims are fallible people who don't always follow the principles within Islam as they should be practised. This is when we see corruption and violence, which is not exclusive to any particular culture or faith, and exists in every country across the world.

Nowhere in Islam does it tell Muslims to fight or oppress eachother, or to disrespect non-muslims. In fact, it is mentioned in the Qur'an that the Jews and the Christians (the People of the Book, ie. the Bible) are closest to Muslims in character, and that friendly relations should exist between us. This was the case most notably at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), and also at the time of Salahuddin, before and during the Crusades, and also in Spain when it was under Muslim rule.

The differences between Sunnis and Shias are not differences in the fundamentals of beliefs, but date back to the issue of successorship to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), meaning the successor to leadership, not the successor to Prophethood, as Muhammad (pbuh) was the Final Prophet. However, Muslims should always be striving for unity and brotherhood:

"The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: so make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy." [Qur'an 49:10]

"The Believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise." [Qur'an 9:71]

Like all human beings, Muslims are fallible people who don't always follow the principles within Islam as they should be practised. This is when we see corruption and violence, which is not exclusive to any particular culture or faith, and exists in every country across the world. Are you trying to say that this has nothing to do with Islam?

It seems to me that had the God of the Muslims simply said killing is wrong and shouldn't be done that there would be a hell of a lot less killing in the Muslim world. But instead there is a huge loophole. Much like Lawyers, Muslims exploit this loophole to the fullest and this results in Shia killing Sunni and Sunni killing Shia on a monthly bases for millennia. Also, it allows for men to kill their daughters and also men to kill men and also Muslims to kill Jews, Muslims to kill one another, Muslims to kill their wives, etc... all of this has been done in the name of Islam. But you say that its a misinterpretation of Islam? Well I'm sure that they say it is YOU that are misinformed about Islam and that they are doing the work of God when they kill. Then they'd quote some verse and go on killing.

My point is that Islam has been in this region for over 1.5 millennia and there has been no enlightenment to realize that killing is wrong (that's about 60 -80 generations of people). To me, then there is something wrong with the philosophy (here being Islam). That is the only conclusion that one could come to when thinking clearly on the subject.
Think on this: Surely you wouldn't advocate becoming communist? Why not? It works on paper. The reason being because it doesn't work in practice and therefore is flawed. Had it worked in practice then we'd have an argument that it is not flawed - but it didn't work in practice and therefore is flawed.

Islam is no different than communism in this respect. It doesn't work. If it did work Muslims would not STILL be killing Muslims after 1400 years of Islam enlightenment.

Agreed?

Also based on your first comment that I quoted - Then you would say that Islam is no better than any other religion in the world?

The entire world is permeated with ignorant people- be they Christians, Jews, atheists or Muslim...

I'm Pakistani and I have personally heard about this event and know many of the people killed.

The perpetrators have not been proved yet, and I extremely doubt it was Shia who live in a predominanantly Sunni country. Also the Shia also celebrate this holiday, so it cannot be a Shia.

It would be wise to see the news and wait to see who is guilty rather than jumping to conclusions.

When its proved it was Shia, make a new hate thread against Muslims and create more propaganda, but have some patience until we find out who it actually is.

Peace.

Also passerby, thanks for your inside. People like Michael are not easy to get to tho.

Allah swt bless you many times and give you peace in this life and next.

Salaam.

Diamond Hearts....

Do you know of any other groups who commit suicide bombing attacks???
Last time I checked Jews and Christians were against blowing themselves up....

And you think Muslims aren't against killing other Muslims?

Muslim, Shia and Sunni, completely denounce this attack, don't try to say we accept it. it is illegal in our religion to kill innocents.

Peace.

The perpetrators have not been proved yet, and I extremely doubt it was Shia who live in a predominanantly Sunni country. Also the Shia also celebrate this holiday, so it cannot be a Shia.

Once again, Jews and Christians dont blow themselves up. No lets look at who likes to strap bombs to themselves and kill civilians- Muslims. While it hasnt yet been proven- there is a 99.99999999999% chance that a Muslim did this. Now im not saying that Muslims in general support this type of carnage. Im not saying it was Shia or Sunni. I AM saying it was a Muslim.

And you think Muslims aren't against killing other Muslims?

And if this is the case, why do they keep blowing each other up?

Anyone can strap a bomb on himself and kill someone, this does not make them have to be Muslim.

I suggest we wait and see what the investigation brings up on this case. It's not wise to draw conclusions.

Peace.

In honor of the Holy Prophet here are some beautiful verses...


O Muhammad, my hand is inept to draw your life
Your graces, your jihad for His Word and your love!
Each dewdrop, each beauty in affair you champion
You gave to humanity, you returned to Allah
As wonderful and triumphant as a pen breathing in an ocean of ink
Your path straight in its depth, your belief unfaltering
By fountains and mirages of this fleeting Pasture
Making me believe of your trust in the Beloved
And how the children would sing for you
Their eyes bright and their smiles wide
How you received them in your arms, your cause
To clothe them, to feed them, to teach them
That they grow to be like you and to act like you
Thoughts of love, kindnesses and worship of Allah
Alone, and in this humanity your footprints lie
And how sadness would cling to your heart
When the whisperer seduced man to err
Your life is a mirror of divine mercy
And Allah be thanked; lo, Allah be thanked!
You bled in Tai'f for the sake of the Recitation
That cleaved to your tongue, your heart and your mark of the Seal
Pressed to the breast of the universe, spate of burning stars!

O Muhammad, my tears are few to write of your conquests
Ink is plenty though no education moves me
Solitary reflections of your victories, losses and spiritual ascensions
Birthed in the Year of the Elephant, living in the Year of Sadness
You split the stones and clay for therein the infant girl lay
Her soul wailing: "For what crime was I slain?" *
The Qur'an has come down from the Lord and Muhammad is His Messenger
And you displaced their gods and altars into the Waste
Only before Allah we must prostrate, no more shirk and hate!
The poets disputed the verses that you spoke
But none could imagine the flow; yield to Gabriel!
They didn't realise that you bore heaven's yoke
You were unlettered, and yet a sign unto jinn and mankind
Tracing the Word to Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary
Prophets also of the Jews and Christians, People of the Book
Leaning on my spirit, I saw your inheritance in the storm
Ever magnificent, peaceable, gentle and human
To pardon the knives that cut your feet, but you leave the trail behind
For humanity to follow, in Allah's service we must wallow
Slowly but surely all creatures shall perish and die
But for the good-hearted and pious, Paradise is nigh!
Entrust us with your example to prepare for our tomorrow

* Qur’an 81:8-9 (“And when the girl-child that was buried alive is asked for what sin she was slain”)

http://peaceablesword.blogspot.com/2006/02/and-muhammad-is-his-messenger.html



The evidence of prophethood in Islam stands alone in this theme. Never before the advent of Muhammad, sallallahu `alaihi wa sallam, was the moral perfection an evidence of prophethood. Here are some reasons for that:

1. The Holy Qur’an praises the Prophet’s morals. The Almighty Allah says:

"And verily, you [O Muhammad] are on an exalted [standard of] character." (Qur’an, 68:4)

He mentions that the Prophet’s good morals and conduct made his companions gather around him. The Almighty Allah says:

"…And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about you…" (Qur’an 3:159)
2. The perfect character is a miracle, as many people try hard to achieve that but cannot.
3. The perfect morals necessitates truthfulness which in turn necessitates acceptance of speech, and since the most important element in prophethood is telling and accepting of the news, the perfect character is an evidence of Messengership.
4. In confirming the Prohet’s perfect morals and conduct there is a strong answer to the invective accusing the Prophet, sallallahu `alaihi wa sallam, of bad morals that made him unqualified to have the honour of Prophethood (according to accusers).
5. The Prophet’s moral perfection was the strongest evidence that oblige many people to believe in Muhammad, even before witnessing a tangible miracle, e.g. Khadijah (the Prophet’s first wife), Abu Bakr, Ali, and others, may Allah be pleased with them.

The fields of moral perfection that are reliable proofs of prophethood of the following:

First: the Perfection of Qualities

The Prophet, sallallahu `alaihi wa sallam, had a smiling face that made him loveable to the people who submitted to him and followed him.

He was also wise, discerning and patient. Severe trials used to make him stronger. He was the most disinterested in the worldly pleasures. He was the example of modesty. He was kind to all, he used to walk in the markets and sit on earth. He was distinguished from his Companions only with shyness and silence.

One of the Prophet’s most honourable attributes was his extreme tolerance. The Arabs showed him hatred and animosity but that made him kinder and more merciful. He showed neither wrath nor vengeance but for Allah’s sake. He fulfilled the promise and kept the covenant.

Second: The Virtues of the Prophet’s Speech

1. The extreme wisdom and the comprehensive knowledge that surprised his contemporaries.
2. The strong capacity to learn by heart, he forgets not even a single information as regards his Message.
3. He explained his laws and teachings with very clear proofs.
4. He incided his people for virtues and good conduct, and interdicted jealousy, hatred and all that is abominable.
5. He gave a clear answer whenever asked and a strong proof whenever he argued.
6. He kept his tongue from altering or perverting speech, till he became known as truthful.
7. He expressed what he wanted in a perfect manner.
8. He was the most eloquent person who had clear meanings and lucid words.

Third: The Virtues of Prophet’s Deeds

1. His good conduct.
2. Combining at the same time mercy (for followers) and awe for those who opposed him.
3. His Shari`ah (law) is a just one, moderate between intemperance and negligence.
4. He took from this world just what is sufficient.
5. He explained his teachings and the rule of worship in such a clear manner that no law other than his is required.
6. Combining his inviting to the religion with arguments and his readiness to fight the enemies till he was victorious.
7. His courage in fighting and strong desire to rescue the needy and the frightened.
8. His exemplary generosity.

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=424


An instance of his compassion was that he called on his Lord and made a compact with Him saying, "If ever I curse a man or make an invocation against him, make it zakat (charity, good deed) for him and mercy, prayer, purification and an act of drawing-near by which he will draw near to you on the Day of Rising.” (Muslim and al-Bukhari and Abu Hurayra)

Hazrat A'isha was riding an unruly camel which was recalcitrant and started to hit it repeatedly, The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "You must have compassion." (Al-Bayhaqi)

bn Shihab said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went on a raid [and he mentioned Hunayn]. The Messenger of Allah gave Safwan ibn Umayya a hundred camels, then a hundred, then a hundred." Ibn Shihab said, "Sa'id ibn al-Musayyab related that Safwan said, 'By Allah, he gave me what he gave me. He was the most hated of people to me and he continued to give to me until he was the most beloved of people to me.'

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=589

"By Allaah! He does not believe. By Allaah! He does not believe. By Allaah! He does not believe." He was asked, "Who, O Messenger of Allah?" He, sallallahu `alaihi wa sallam, said: "Whoever does not safeguard his neighbour from his harms." [al-Bukhaari and Muslim. Muslim's version reads: He will not enter Paradise if he does not spare his neighbour from his harms.]

Yahya ibn Muadh (rahimahullah) gathered the characteristics of the believers in one of his essays as follows, "It is to be full of modesty, and to be harmless too. To be full of goodness and not to be corrupt. For the tongue to be truthful, for the words to be little and to be plentiful in good action. To have little slip-ups and not to be excessive. To be good to one's relatives, building closeness between them. To be dignified and grateful. To be full of contentment if Allaah restricted some provision. To be forbearing and friendly to his brothers. To be compassionate and chaste. Not to curse, swear, insult, backbite, nor to gossip. Not to be hasty, envious, hateful, arrogant nor vain. Not to lean towards worldliness, nor to extend long hopes and wishes. Not to sleep too much nor to be absent-minded, nor to show-off nor be hypocritical. Not to be selfish, but to be soft and cheerful, not servile. Loving for the sake of Allaah, being pleased for His sake and being angry only for His sake. His provision is taqwaa (reverential fear of Allaah). His worries are what will happen to him in the Afterlife. His friends remind him. His beloved is His Protector and Master. His struggle is for the Afterlife."

http://www.islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=308

Dear Beloved Prophet Muhammad (s), how can there be a more perfection creation that him?

The greatest, kindest, most honorable man in the history of the universe, the most beloved of people and the most beloved of Allah swt.

Peace.

Being that muslims blow up other muslims and those of other faiths every day I would wager that the odds are against you.

When was the last time a Christian strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
When was the last time a Jew strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
When was the last time a Muslim strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
How about...
Yesterday 57 killed:
http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-04-13-voa3.cfm

and then another 74 dead:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/060407/w040756.html

and on and on and on....

Also passerby, thanks for your inside. People like Michael are not easy to get to tho.

Allah swt bless you many times and give you peace in this life and next.

Salaam.
Is that me?
I've read a post of yours I liked very much, once. It had a few passages in the Qu'ram (sorry if it's written wrong, I'm not used to write that word) that spoke about love...

I would love to read more...

Being that muslims blow up other muslims and those of other faiths every day I would wager that the odds are against you.

When was the last time a Christian strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
When was the last time a Jew strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
When was the last time a Muslim strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
How about...
Yesterday 57 killed:
http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-04-13-voa3.cfm

and then another 74 dead:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/060407/w040756.html

and on and on and on....

Big wow. Oh no, these guys are worse all cause they "blow themselves up".

Shit man, if you wanna compare sides of which religion kills more of the other religion, stats will easily show Muslims being below Christians and Jews.

I couldn't care less if some guy blows himself up or if they bomb em from afar, dead is dead and killed is killed. It's all symantics and propoganda used to make one side seem worse than the other so that we don't have to look at our own actions. A Jew or Christian that uses weapons from afar is just as bad as a Muslim that blows themself up.

- N

Big wow. Oh no, these guys are worse all cause they "blow themselves up".

Shit man, if you wanna compare sides of which religion kills more of the other religion, stats will easily show Muslims being below Christians and Jews.

I couldn't care less if some guy blows himself up or if they bomb em from afar, dead is dead and killed is killed. It's all symantics and propoganda used to make one side seem worse than the other so that we don't have to look at our own actions. A Jew or Christian that uses weapons from afar is just as bad as a Muslim that blows themself up.

- N

You forgot muslims are killing in the name of religon, they are killing eachother & others everyday in the name of religon.

Where do get your figures, in my country alone thailand they have killed over a 1000 in one year.

Please enlighten using thailand just 1 country as a yardstick, where have jews or christians killed a thousand people this year, dont say bush is a christian that has fuck all to do with america's foreign policy, and america is not a religous government by definition, where as all muslim countries are.

Hitler was not a christian, catholic or anything else he was a lonny, hell bent on a blond blue eye boy master race, no doubt for him to fuck.

The only example you can quote this century is the yugoslavian president, but he killed croats as well as muslims, he was ethnic cleansing it was not a religous war, and he was stopped by the west.

I have no doubt you would have to add nearly 10 years of jewish killings in palestine to reach, the 1 thousand in thailand this year.

Now you add up the murders by muslims in the rest of the world, this year to thailands, i have no doubt you will be talking about over a 100,000 killed in the name of islam this year.

Somehow i do not see your comparison?

I'm Pakistani and I have personally heard about this event and know many of the people killed.

The perpetrators have not been proved yet, and I extremely doubt it was Shia who live in a predominanantly Sunni country. Also the Shia also celebrate this holiday, so it cannot be a Shia.OK we'll wait. I take AlJazeera as impartial.

Michael

And you think Muslims aren't against killing other Muslims?

Muslim, Shia and Sunni, completely denounce this attack, don't try to say we accept it. it is illegal in our religion to kill innocents.

Quran. Sura 9:5, "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."

Sura 5:33, If Islam is resisted "Their punishment is … execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land."

Sura 9:73, "Prophet, make war on unbelievers and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them."

Sura 8:59, "Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away … strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy… rouse the faithful to arms!"

Sura 5:49, "If they reject your judgment, know that it is Allah's wish to scourge them for their sins."

Sura 17:60 "There is no city which we will not destroy before the day of Resurrection, or chastise it with a grievous chastisement. This is written in the Book."

It's said how ancient books have been distorted in the name of ignorance... :(
Oh well... that's what's written in them now...

Anyone can strap a bomb on himself and kill someone, this does not make them have to be Muslim.

Yet, no others have been found to do such things other than Muslims. So, we're still waiting for the first suicide non-Muslim bomber.

65% of Pakistan supports Osama bin Laden for his attacks against the West. Are you one of those?

~~ 2004 Pew Survey.

It's said how ancient books have been distorted in the name of ignorance... :(
Oh well... that's what's written in them now...

How does ignorance distort ignorance?

One has remember that religious stupidty is something the west managed to remove from politics a few centuries ago - in the middle east this has not yet happened, there is little or no separation of state and religion.

If this was still the case in the west, we would be seeing the same kind of religiously motivated horrors, as was the case in the middle ages.

At the root of both Christianity and Islam is the concept that those who reject the faith will/should be punished or murdered, so its only natural that violence and hatred will manifest among the 'believers'.

I've never heard of a Buddhist or Hindu war, where this concept is lacking.

65% of Pakistan supports Osama bin Laden for his attacks against the West. Are you one of those?
Three reasons:
1) People are poor and they need someone to blame. People hate to blame themselves. They forget (or don’t realize) that their forefathers were just as poor. They blame colonization, they forget America was a colony, so was Singapore and Hong Kong - it's an excuse. Its time to pull the finger out and work 14 hours a day like our forefathers did, or be happy with less.
2) Americas policy in the ME has been both good at times and shit at times. The USA is not the all-knowing nor is it always ran by the same types of people. A long time ago they used to think that countries should have constitutions just like ours. That was a huge failure. Now they promote constitutions like England’s. Also, presently the leaderships ME policy is pretty f*cking crap. Think Iran-Iraq contra-f*ch-Chile over…did it ever really end?
3) Religion. Laden is like a fairy tail white knight. The truth is he will bring them nothing and never would have. He has no idea on how to make Pakistan a prosperous country. He thinks Islam “poof” everything is fine. That has never been the case in 1400 I see no reason why it should be now.

I’ll say one thing, with the USA trading with India and Pakistan, and Pakistan increasing trade with India, Pakistan has never had it so good. If they could stop screwing up they might just end up following India on up and being a bit OK.

There is never a perfect world, but things might be getting better and little do they know they have the USA to pertially blame for it :)

Just something interesting and I was thinking about the ideas of communism and Islam. "The good Ole' lets all work together" is a mainstay of the less than creative.

It just doesn't work. I think anyway. DNA may get a person to .... maybe help the closest of the tribe but that's about as far as it gets.

Gunmen take over Palestinian Cabinet (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/383830B2-F0E4-44CA-ADCD-403A70120EAF.htm)
Palestinian gunmen briefly took over the Cabinet building on Thursday, protesting against the refusal of the new Hamas government to meet their demands for perks and promotions

Almost unreal huh? To demand perks!?!? Really shows the motivation in helping society. Helping hand more like it!!!!

One has remember that religious stupidty is something the west managed to remove from politics a few centuries ago - in the middle east this has not yet happened, there is little or no separation of state and religion.

If this was still the case in the west, we would be seeing the same kind of religiously motivated horrors, as was the case in the middle ages.
True...

At the root of both Christianity and Islam is the concept that those who reject the faith will/should be punished or murdered, so its only natural that violence and hatred will manifest among the 'believers'.
It's not the religion that is the problem, it is the people who are ignorant. For example, in the middle ages, we had the inquisition which was perpretrated by so called christians. Nowadays we have many not-for-profit Christian organizations which attempt to help poor people. It really depends on the person. Religion is just an aspect of someone's character. And what builds the religious nature of the personality is the rest of the personality. I know it myself because I become a christian when I was attracted by the christian scriptures which talk about love. First, I was myself, then I identified myself with christianity based on christian scriptures. Personality comes first, then comes religion.

Look at the people who are influenced by the hatred scriptures in Islam. They are all poor and many often are young impressionable 16 year old kids that have barely grown up and have live in poverty throughout their whole lives. They ask the question "why do I suffer so much?" and their religion answers that question and gives them something to live with.

We all have needs. If we heard their cry for help, there wouldn't be so much violence in the world...

I've never heard of a Buddhist or Hindu war, where this concept is lacking.
There are disputes. I recently heard of protests amongst Buddhists...
Truly... religion is created by humans and, thus, is subject to ignorance... ;)

How does ignorance distort ignorance?
You are saying it doesn't?

Look at the people who are influenced by the hatred scriptures in Islam. They are all poor and many often are young impressionable 16 year old kids that have barely grown up and have live in poverty throughout their whole lives.
Most of the extremist/terrorist elements in Islam are relatively well financed - Osama himself (and others from Saudi Arabia) being a prime example. Terrorist plots don't come cheap. Perhaps what you are referring to are the Palestinians, whose anger is politically motivated for the most part.

The fault is not with the interpretors of religious scriptures, the fault is with the scriptures themselves - the Christian Bible is just as bad as the Koran for advocating atitudes of hate/violence.

You are saying it doesn't?

Ya know, a funny feeling came over me as I responded to you but couldn't quite put my finger on it, thanks for jogging my memory. I had forgotten about your reading and comprehension skills.

If you look closely at my very short post above, all five words of it, you'll notice I never said it doesn't. I actually asked you why you think it does.

But alas, your skills, or lack thereof, have once again tasked me.

I hope to better improve my memory someday.

Most of the extremist/terrorist elements in Islam are relatively well financed - Osama himself (and others from Saudi Arabia) being a prime example. Terrorist plots don't come cheap. Perhaps what you are referring to are the Palestinians, whose anger is politically motivated for the most part.

The fault is not with the interpretors of religious scriptures, the fault is with the scriptures themselves - the Christian Bible is just as bad as the Koran for advocating atitudes of hate/violence.
First of all, the scriptures have ben modified. Second, you are only influenced by such scriptures if your personality already consists of the contents that the scriptures themselves justify or if your personality is weak enough to be influenced by such a scripture.

Ya know, a funny feeling came over me as I responded to you but couldn't quite put my finger on it, thanks for jogging my memory. I had forgotten about your reading and comprehension skills.

If you look closely at my very short post above, all five words of it, you'll notice I never said it doesn't. I actually asked you why you think it does.

But alas, your skills, or lack thereof, have once again tasked me.

I hope to better improve my memory someday.
I didn't say it doesn't.

If you want to ask why I think I do, then you ask "why do you think ignorance distorts ignorance?" rather then trying to justify your erroneous usage of the word "how". ;)

Mind you, I understand how you intended to use the word "how", but that was very ambiguous in this discussion. ;)

I am having a problem with the interpretation many of you have about Chritainity, as a follower of Jesus the son of that wich cannot be named aka: God, Allah, Yahwae, or the many other word we use to name the perfect righteousness that created the world, the man named Jesus the last blood scrafice of mankind, never called for conversion by the sword, he called for offering the true way as a gift to all mankind to accept or reject, the horrors done in his name, done by false leaders, prophets, and fallable men, still dose not diminish his words of peace and salvation, You who think you are pure and holy, are you truley will to try to compaire your rightouness to the perfect righteousness of GOD! that would be like a candel trying to compaire it self to the Sun, it will be consumed before it is even recongised as light, Jesus Christ as the Last Blood scrafice has become the intercessor between us and the perfect righteousness of that Wich Cannot be Named, and what do you have to do to have this protection and salvation, just acknowledge your sinfullness, and accept him as the savior and intersessor of God, no killing , no jihad, no judging the faith of others, the only thing this salvation dose not releave you of is the responsability of liveing a Godely and Righteous life but it dose releaves you of having to try to compaire your fallable life against the Perfect Righteousness of Deity, an as for you atheist if you are right what have I lost? but if I am right what have you lost in your unbleave? Happy Easter To All, May God Grant You His Peace, as Provided by His Son Jesus, The Last Blood Sacrifice for Man the the son of Adam

First of all, the scriptures have ben modified.
Modified??? Who, what, where, when?

And if they have been modified, how do you know what the originals dictate?

Being that muslims blow up other muslims and those of other faiths every day I would wager that the odds are against you.

When was the last time a Christian strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
When was the last time a Jew strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
When was the last time a Muslim strapped on a bomb and killed a bunch of muslims?
How about...
Yesterday 57 killed:
http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-04-13-voa3.cfm

and then another 74 dead:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/060407/w040756.html

and on and on and on....

Suicide bombing is common in nations that are under occupation like Palestine and Iraq where it is used to fight occupation forces.

Pakistan does not have a history of such attacks.

You should research what exactly happened and find out who the victims were. Five of the most intelligent and loved Muslim scholars of Pakistan have been killed in the celebration of the Birth of our Holy Prophet (s). The perpetrator cannot be Muslim, why would Muslims kill their won scholars?

During the Soviet war in Afghanistan, for example, Russia often bombed buildings and civilians in Pakistan to dissuade them from supporting Afghani mujahideen.

During the war with India, Indian spies made explosions also in the city of Karachi killing civilians.

So basically, you demonstrate one thing. If a suicide bombing happens the blame is immediately on Muslims. Forget it if it is only one person. It is 'Muslims' who suicide bomb others, not only a few Muslims or agents working for others to put the blame on Muslims. Not all Muslims practice Islam, and many of them side with occupation forces and Western interests over the interests of their own people. It could be anyone, does not have to be a Muslim believer. This is why there is a phrase, innocent until proven guilty.

Big wow. Oh no, these guys are worse all cause they "blow themselves up".

Shit man, if you wanna compare sides of which religion kills more of the other religion, stats will easily show Muslims being below Christians and Jews.

I couldn't care less if some guy blows himself up or if they bomb em from afar, dead is dead and killed is killed. It's all symantics and propoganda used to make one side seem worse than the other so that we don't have to look at our own actions. A Jew or Christian that uses weapons from afar is just as bad as a Muslim that blows themself up.

- N

I agree completely. Those who kill innocent people whether they suicide bomb them or they drop bombs from planes are guilty of injustice and Allah swt will never forgive such people.

These people who killed the scholars should be found, tried in court, executed . The killing the great scholars of our country is a great loss for us. It saddened me very much since I knew some of the people who were killed. Then some people try to put the blame on the anti-Islamic actions of one individual on the entire people.

This action is a crime and is not equal to the suicide bombing of US soldiers which is part of a resistance against occupation.

Yet, no others have been found to do such things other than Muslims. So, we're still waiting for the first suicide non-Muslim bomber.

65% of Pakistan supports Osama bin Laden for his attacks against the West. Are you one of those?

~~ 2004 Pew Survey.

That's an untrue generalization. I'm personally aware of many people who chastise Ladn as much as Bush in Pakistan.

Quran. Sura 9:5, "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."

This surah is discussing the Breaking of Hudaybiah treaty by the Kaffirs of Makkah by massacre of a tribe who was allied with the people of Medina and the Muslim state.

Surah At Taubah 9
3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.


Sura 5:33, If Islam is resisted "Their punishment is … execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land."

Surah Al Maida 5
33. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

34. Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


Sura 9:73, "Prophet, make war on unbelievers and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them."

On discussing the war which was being waged by the Kaffireen of Makkah and the Munafiqun (hypocrites among Muslims) in Medinah. Allah swt ordained the Prophet to be tough against these two groups. The part of the chapter is almost solely concerning Hypocrites who help the enemies of Muslims.

Surah At Taubah 9
73. O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

74. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.

75. Amongst them are men who made a covenant with Allah, that if He bestowed on them of His bounty, they would give (largely) in charity, and be truly amongst those who are righteous.


Sura 8:59, "Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away … strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy… rouse the faithful to arms!"



Surah Al-Anfal 8
55. For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

56. They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah..

57. If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.

58. If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.

59. Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).

60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

62. Should they intend to deceive thee,- verily Allah sufficeth thee: He it is That hath strengthened thee with His aid and with (the company of) the Believers;

63. And (moreover) He hath put affection between their hearts: not if thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, couldst thou have produced that affection, but Allah hath done it: for He is Exalted in might, Wise.


Sura 5:49, "If they reject your judgment, know that it is Allah's wish to scourge them for their sins."


Poor translation of a phrase of the verse.

Surah Al Maidah 5
48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

49. And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.


Sura 17:60 "There is no city which we will not destroy before the day of Resurrection, or chastise it with a grievous chastisement. This is written in the Book."

Firstly, the verse you quoted (ie copy and pasted from the zionist daniel pipes' website) was the wrong number. This shows the Quran was not actually used researched by whoever wrote this.

Next, this is a fact in the Quran which Allah swt says, it is the people who disobeyed Allah swt and promoted mischeif, and He destroyedf these people in the past, and will destroy those who engage in the same. Examples are the nations of Noah, Abraham, Saleh, Hud, etc.

Surah Israa 17
56. Say: "Call on those - besides Him - whom ye fancy: they have neither the power to remove your troubles from you nor to change them."

57. Those whom they call upon do desire (for themselves) means of access to their Lord, - even those who are nearest: they hope for His Mercy and fear His Wrath: for the Wrath of thy Lord is something to take heed of.

58. There is not a population but We shall destroy it before the Day of Judgment or punish it with a dreadful Penalty: that is written in the (eternal) Record.

59. And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false: We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully: We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).

60. Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about: We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,- as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!


I've never heard of a Buddhist or Hindu war, where this concept is lacking.

Not true, there were many wars after the death of Buddha in South Asia, the followers warred among themselves over artifacts and began worshipping him as a God, which he disagreed with and warned his followers not to do. Modern Buddhism is a politics and materialistic free religion, hence it is not involved in the world politics of war.

Islam is a political, social, economical, and religious system and Muslims believe it should be dominant as a ruling system in Muslim majority lands.

There were many wars among the ancient Hindu kings of India, and they often fought others and among themselves. The Hindu religion was never one monolithic religion, until after the Muslims apppeared in India and established their sultanates after the Mongol's conversion to Islam. The Hindu kings supported the British against Sultan Babar (the greatest hero of India) who vowed to not let the british control India until they kill him and resisted them until death. After this Hindu were also subjugated by the British, and after the independence, there was alot of Hindu massacres of Muslims in India which led to the creation of Pakistan.

Also, Pakistan is not happy with the modern trading of US with India and strengthening their country with nuclear technology, while criticizing Iran. If you don't know about this, please read Pakistani English news on statements of the government. Pakistan has not been better as India gets more US support because this makes Pakistan less secure and increasing competition between two countries. Also Pakistan has also been the one to push for dialogue with India and settling Kashmir dispute in the UN, but India has always done things unilaterally concerning Kashmir resulting in massive discontent among Kashmiri people.

Peace.

it is a very common saying - "all muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are muslims"

I am having a problem with the interpretation many of you have about Chritainity, as a follower of Jesus the son of that wich cannot be named aka: God, Allah, Yahwae, or the many other word we use to name the perfect righteousness that created the world, the man named Jesus the last blood scrafice of mankind, never called for conversion by the sword, he called for offering the true way as a gift to all mankind to accept or reject, the horrors done in his name, done by false leaders, prophets, and fallable men, still dose not diminish his words of peace and salvation, You who think you are pure and holy, are you truley will to try to compaire your rightouness to the perfect righteousness of GOD! that would be like a candel trying to compaire it self to the Sun, it will be consumed before it is even recongised as light, Jesus Christ as the Last Blood scrafice has become the intercessor between us and the perfect righteousness of that Wich Cannot be Named, and what do you have to do to have this protection and salvation, just acknowledge your sinfullness, and accept him as the savior and intersessor of God, no killing , no jihad, no judging the faith of others, the only thing this salvation dose not releave you of is the responsability of liveing a Godely and Righteous life but it dose releaves you of having to try to compaire your fallable life against the Perfect Righteousness of Deity, an as for you atheist if you are right what have I lost? but if I am right what have you lost in your unbleave? Happy Easter To All, May God Grant You His Peace, as Provided by His Son Jesus, The Last Blood Sacrifice for Man the the son of Adam

Last edited by Buffalo Roam : Today at 03:11 PM.

The fault is not with the interpretors of religious scriptures, the fault is with the scriptures themselves - the Christian Bible is just as bad as the Koran for advocating atitudes of hate/violence.


No the fault is with muslim interpretors of religious scriptures, they are re-inacting them out word for word.

Other religons are not, how many christians or catholics are running around taking a eye for a eye, or not gambling or boozing or coveting there neighbours wife or dog for that matter.

People of all religons except muslims, are using there common sense, when it comes to the loony text in the bible, muslims seem to have no common sense, if the non stop violence in there religon is anything to go by.

It also has alot to do with just how many hours there studying islam & praying, some are doing it every waking hour, no wonder there is so many fanatics.

They all need to get off there fat kebab asses, and get to work!!!!!!!!!!

it is a very common saying - "all muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are muslims"


What a very true statement, its certainly not a coincidence neither.

You forgot muslims are killing in the name of religon, they are killing eachother & others everyday in the name of religon.

Religion, Government, Nationalism, Capitalism; it's all the same thing. They're all about control.

Again, using only "religion" to single out one group to place the blame elsewhere rather than looking at the faults of ourselves. Typical person living in their blissful ignorance.

Where do get your figures, in my country alone thailand they have killed over a 1000 in one year.

Hell, just the first Gulf War alone will trump your country by almost a century's worth of Thailand killings.

it is a very common saying - "all muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are muslims"

Yeah, like CEOs and others in charge at places like Enron, Christians that bomb abortion clinics, citizens that take pipebombs to Atlanta Olympic Games, white guys who blow up the Oklahoma City Murrah Federal Building, numerous fires and buildings exploded by radical leftist groups such as E.L.F., the thousands of gangs that exist in every single city in the U.S., the majority of all politicians, the numerous murders that happen every day in this country, the drug companies that control the populace with their harmful drugs..

And that's is just a short list off the top of my head. Oh, and guess what? The majority in that list are white people. ;)

- N

Nieldo, and as fast as we can catch up to them we prosecute them for the deeds,and eather put them in prision for life or stick a needel in their arm and send them to the maker to answer to him for their crimes, and as for ENRON executives they seem to be up to their necks in legale problems that should put them in prison for a long long time, were they also will recieve a warm welcome from their fellow inmates, for I'm sure that some of them (fellow inmates) have relitaves who were screwed by said executive.

Modified??? Who, what, where, when?
Specially once the King James version came around. It was modified to create the catholic religion. There is even a scripture that was ommited, in the Gospel of John, where Jesus forgives a woman, preventing her from being stoned. Similarly, the Koran was modified in the same way, with that kind of stupid chauvinist mentality, amongst other worse ones...

You can see that in the scriptures. The symbols were slightly modified with terms of the medieval times, like "Lord", "king", etc...

Here's what I wrote about this in another forums:
On a side note, the word "Lord" is slightly innacurate. The innacuracy is caused by the beliefs of the systems which translated the Bible from Hebrew and Greek to English. The innacuracy is cause by a connection between a simbol of authority of the medieval times (the times when the King James version was conceived). At those times, the system in place was still feudalism. The landlords of the time were the kings, who controlled the cities. Because of the barbarians everywhere, people dependent on the kings to be protected. They would pay a tax to the king so that they could live within the walls of the king's land. Because of that protection, the king was often politely called the "lord". This is why in the Bible, the words "lord" and "king" are widely used as a representation of God and Jesus. It's because of an analogy between the protective figure of God and the protective figure of the king, the lord.

It was at those times that the present systems were also conceived. For example, the word "real estate" is a variation of "royal estate", which can be translated as "the king's land". The word landlord is a remanent of the usage of "lord" to represent the person who owns the land taht is rented. Oh, and at those times, the kings only rented the land, and it was up to the peasants to build their houses. Which is why it is landlord instead of houselord. LOL!

And if they have been modified, how do you know what the originals dictate?
Huuumm.. I can't be logically sure. I may have an idea of it, which I believe to be true, but that's about it...

Quran. Sura 9:5, "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."

Sura 5:33, If Islam is resisted "Their punishment is … execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land."

Sura 9:73, "Prophet, make war on unbelievers and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them."

Sura 8:59, "Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away … strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy… rouse the faithful to arms!"

Sura 5:49, "If they reject your judgment, know that it is Allah's wish to scourge them for their sins."

Sura 17:60 "There is no city which we will not destroy before the day of Resurrection, or chastise it with a grievous chastisement. This is written in the Book."

No, you don't get it, see, Islam is a religion of peace




;)

as for ENRON executives they seem to be up to their necks in legale problems that should put them in prison for a long long time, were they also will recieve a warm welcome from their fellow inmates, for I'm sure that some of them (fellow inmates) have relitaves who were screwed by said executive.

Well, so far the guy that's been convicted was given what, 5 years? Oh no! Hell, I'll gladly serve 5 years in prison if that means I wind up with hundreds of millions of dollars in return.

White-collared terrorism.

- N

it is a very common saying - "all muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are muslims"

Anyone who agrees with this statement is an idiot. This statement is only used to deride Muslims in whatever struggle they chose. Those fighting for freedom in Palestina, Kashmir, Chechnya, Iraq, and Afghanistan are the greatest people and are freedom fighters, it is the Americans and Israelis who are terrorists. One fool can blow himself and claim he is Muslim, but what about the State terrorism of the American government and Israel. Don't try to claim that only Muslims are capable of wrong, your bigotry astounds me. No wonder you are supported by vincent.

I am having a problem with the interpretation many of you have about Chritainity, as a follower of Jesus the son of that wich cannot be named aka: God, Allah, Yahwae, or the many other word we use to name the perfect righteousness that created the world, the man named Jesus the last blood scrafice of mankind, never called for conversion by the sword, he called for offering the true way as a gift to all mankind to accept or reject, the horrors done in his name, done by false leaders, prophets, and fallable men, still dose not diminish his words of peace and salvation, You who think you are pure and holy, are you truley will to try to compaire your rightouness to the perfect righteousness of GOD! that would be like a candel trying to compaire it self to the Sun, it will be consumed before it is even recongised as light, Jesus Christ as the Last Blood scrafice has become the intercessor between us and the perfect righteousness of that Wich Cannot be Named, and what do you have to do to have this protection and salvation, just acknowledge your sinfullness, and accept him as the savior and intersessor of God, no killing , no jihad, no judging the faith of others, the only thing this salvation dose not releave you of is the responsability of liveing a Godely and Righteous life but it dose releaves you of having to try to compaire your fallable life against the Perfect Righteousness of Deity, an as for you atheist if you are right what have I lost? but if I am right what have you lost in your unbleave? Happy Easter To All, May God Grant You His Peace, as Provided by His Son Jesus, The Last Blood Sacrifice for Man the the son of Adam

I believe that to go to Heaven on the blood and sacrifice of another is unacceptable, and one must go to Paradise on his own sweat and blood with his beliefs and actions.

What problem do you have with our understanding of Christianity? We reject the notions that God can have a son, we reject trinity, we reject the blood sacrifice.

Man does not need an intercessor to get to Allah swt, Allah swt is there to whoever asks.

It's not us to judge others. Allah swt will say who goes to paradise and who doesn't.

I don't compare myself to Allah swt, this is a major sin in Islam. Allah swt is far above us creatures and we have no right to compare ourselves to Him.

Also Jihad is one of the best concepts in Islam, it is the fight for freeodm and righteousness against unjustice. With Jihad, Muslim revolutionaries in Iraq and Afghanistan will never be subjugated.

And as the Quran says, to you your belief, to me mine.

Nieldo, and as fast as we can catch up to them we prosecute them for the deeds,and eather put them in prision for life or stick a needel in their arm and send them to the maker to answer to him for their crimes, and as for ENRON executives they seem to be up to their necks in legale problems that should put them in prison for a long long time, were they also will recieve a warm welcome from their fellow inmates, for I'm sure that some of them (fellow inmates) have relitaves who were screwed by said executive.

And yet the West stays silent as America continues an unjust war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and is pushing for war against Iran. Why not prevent these crimes before they move into more worse crimes. The Western people should resist the use of their nation's wealth to subjugate others.

No, you don't get it, see, Islam is a religion of peace




;)

You should read my post where I refuted each phrase that was brought up. I didn't post that so it will be ignored, go back and read.

Peace.

Anyone who agrees with this statement is an idiot. This statement is only used to deride Muslims in whatever struggle they chose. Those fighting for freedom in Palestina, Kashmir, Chechnya, Iraq, and Afghanistan are the greatest people and are freedom fighters, it is the Americans and Israelis who are terrorists. One fool can blow himself and claim he is Muslim, but what about the State terrorism of the American government and Israel. Don't try to claim that only Muslims are capable of wrong, your bigotry astounds me. No wonder you are supported by vincent.

Yes i agree with you completely... this statement is indeed used to deride muslims in whatever struggle thet chose... struggles like blowing themselves up in public, slaughtering infidels in the name of allah, butchering people of the other religions like animals, bombing public places, lol the list is endless...
and yes i agree Osama Bin Laden is a freedom fighter too! ;)

Also Jihad is one of the best concepts in Islam, it is the fight for freeodm and righteousness against unjustice. With Jihad, Muslim revolutionaries in Iraq and Afghanistan will never be subjugated.

now your scaring me... tell me your not a "freedom fighter" yourself!

And yet the West stays silent as America continues an unjust war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and is pushing for war against Iran. Why not prevent these crimes before they move into more worse crimes. The Western people should resist the use of their nation's wealth to subjugate others.

I'd suggest let the West blow up these whole countries instead of just useless bombing here & there... the world can only be a better place without the muslims. :)

Quoting long verses from the Qur’an is not going to make Islam magically work.

For example: One could quote long verses from the The Communist Manifesto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Manifesto) or its Chinese derivitive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maoism)

On paper communism works splendidly and perhaps its goals are lofty. However, it doesn’t work in practice. How do we know it doesn’t work in practice? Because its been tried and it didn’t work. There is no argument here – Communism doesn’t work. Quoting long verses from it is not going to make Communism magically work.

You know, the Chinese communists killed about 30 million Chinese trying to make a society were everyone was Communist because they thought once everyone was on the same page then it would work.

Look back to the Qur’anic history of Islam in Arabia. The first thing the Muslims did was to kill anyone on the Arabian Peninsula the did not agree to being a Muslim. Then they spread out wards (much like the Communists).

Neither Communism nor Islam brought long term peace and prosperity.

How do we know?

Because we can look at Communist and Islamic societies and see that they are neither prosperous nor peaceful.

Communism still rally against Capitalist
Muslims still rally against Hindus, Jews and Xians.

Those are the facts. There is no argument here.

I also think it’s interesting that the communists Chinese continue to play the blame game with Japan. Ever read a Chinese school text book about the Japanese? They are practically referred to as Monkeys. Ever read a text book about the Jews in The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia? You’ll notice a striking similarity.

Are you starting to get it yet?
See any connections?

Probably not.


Anyway long quotations from the Qur'an are not going make Islam work anymore than long quotations from the Communist Manifesto is going to make Communism work. Both systems are inherently flawed.


Michael

That's an untrue generalization. I'm personally aware of many people who chastise Ladn as much as Bush in Pakistan.

It isn't a generalization, it is a fact. And we all know how you treat facts.

This surah is discussing the Breaking of Hudaybiah treaty by the Kaffirs of Makkah by massacre of a tribe who was allied with the people of Medina and the Muslim state.

On discussing the war which was being waged by the Kaffireen of Makkah and the Munafiqun (hypocrites among Muslims) in Medinah. Allah swt ordained the Prophet to be tough against these two groups. The part of the chapter is almost solely concerning Hypocrites who help the enemies of Muslims.

Every quote you supplied said the exact same thing, join Islam or die.

Firstly, the verse you quoted (ie copy and pasted from the zionist daniel pipes' website) was the wrong number. This shows the Quran was not actually used researched by whoever wrote this.

Your racist attitude does not preclude fact.

Next, this is a fact in the Quran which Allah swt says, it is the people who disobeyed Allah swt and promoted mischeif, and He destroyedf these people in the past, and will destroy those who engage in the same. Examples are the nations of Noah, Abraham, Saleh, Hud, etc.

Destroying people who do not follow Islam appears to be the religions favorite pastime.

Islam is a political, social, economical, and religious system and Muslims believe it should be dominant as a ruling system in Muslim majority lands.

But, if anyone chooses not to be a part of that ruling system, they are put to death. Yes, a most peaceful religion.

Anyone who agrees with this statement is an idiot. This statement is only used to deride Muslims in whatever struggle they chose. Those fighting for freedom in Palestina, Kashmir, Chechnya, Iraq, and Afghanistan are the greatest people and are freedom fighters, it is the Americans and Israelis who are terrorists.- Anyone who targets civilians for harm with intention to cause fear is a terrorist, regardless of how good his cause is.

it is a very common saying - "all muslims are not terrorists but all terrorists are muslims"- Not really. Muslims are overrepresented, though. Nice list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_organizations

It's not us to judge others. Allah swt will say who goes to paradise and who doesn't.
But strangely, it is always mere humans (like yourself) who decide what God wants. He'd never be able to get a word in edgewise.

- Not really. Muslims are overrepresented, though. Nice list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_organizations

dont take it all too literally.. when i say all means more than 90% and u can see that from the list u provided!

The Hindu kings supported the British against Sultan Babar (the greatest hero of India) who vowed to not let the british control India until they kill him and resisted them until death.
But strangely, he had no problem with controlling a Hindu nation himself...so much for your "muslim majority rule".

The Muslim invasion of India has been called 'The Bloodiest Story in History' by Will Durant. Entire Indian families used to go down to the rivers and drown themselves, rather than face the onslaught of marauding thugs you call 'heros'.

dont take it all too literally.. when i say all means more than 90% and u can see that from the list u provided!- On sensitive issues like this, you should always expect people to interpret what you say in the worst possible way. Keep the dramatic flowery stuff to art threads :o

And also, at a glance, the list doesn't seem to say "90%"

read the newspapers & tell me one non-islamic terrorist...
donn check on the history of terrorism... we're talkin about TODAY!

read the newspapers & tell me one non-islamic terrorist...
donn check on the history of terrorism... we're talkin about TODAY!

The terrorist states of America, Israel, India, and Russia who daily terrorize the their Muslim minorities with violence and suppress Muslims around the world.

It is brainwashing and deception which makes you people look in terrorism as acceptable and unacceptable forms.

You people claim if a man commits suicide in a war, then he is a terrorist even if he kills soldiers. You cannot murder a soldier.

You people think that whenever there is a bomb blast, then Muslims must be behind it even if you have no proof of this. It's about time you people learn the truth about 9/11 and london bombings.

These events were used to start a war in the Muslim world for control of this region. Visit whatreallyhappened.com for more info.

If you look at bomb attacks and even the suicide bombings in Palestine and Iraq, these are all responses to oppression, these are tools that freedom fighters use to kill enemy soldiers. These attacks are all retaliatory in nature, so people must realize who it is who started the war, its america, its israel.

Peace.

The terrorist states of America, Israel, India, and Russia who daily terrorize the their Muslim minorities with violence and suppress Muslims around the world.

You are a bold-faced liar. The only oppression of Muslims in America is from other Muslims. Show us one single case of Muslims being oppressed in America or else shut your filthy hole!

The terrorist states of America, Israel, India, and Russia who daily terrorize the their Muslim minorities with violence and suppress Muslims around the world.

It is brainwashing and deception which makes you people look in terrorism as acceptable and unacceptable forms.

You people claim if a man commits suicide in a war, then he is a terrorist even if he kills soldiers. You cannot murder a soldier.

You people think that whenever there is a bomb blast, then Muslims must be behind it even if you have no proof of this. It's about time you people learn the truth about 9/11 and london bombings.

These events were used to start a war in the Muslim world for control of this region. Visit whatreallyhappened.com for more info.

If you look at bomb attacks and even the suicide bombings in Palestine and Iraq, these are all responses to oppression, these are tools that freedom fighters use to kill enemy soldiers. These attacks are all retaliatory in nature, so people must realize who it is who started the war, its america, its israel.

Peace.

its just not your falult... you have been conditioned like that since birth... and i fail to see that you have matured enough to understand how living in harmony with our fellow human being works...

And you think Muslims aren't against killing other Muslims?

.
Sure I have seen about "2" Muslim leaders "denouncing" , just about the same number that "denounced" the 100,000 Algerian victims by Islamic jihad on their own brothers.

DiamondHearts said:

With Jihad, Muslim revolutionaries in Iraq and Afghanistan will never be subjugated.

do you mean Taliban and Saddam were not subjucators? does subjucation apply to everyone?

and if u lived under Taliban would you be able to make posts? maybe Saddam would allow it, not sure though.

Your probably too young to remember the Taliban.

The only oppression of Muslims in America is from other Muslims.

nah, seems like they get along.

But strangely, it is always mere humans (like yourself) who decide what God wants. He'd never be able to get a word in edgewise.


Fuckin Aye.

Please Diamondheart, provid news articles, date, time, location, for all of these attacks on Muslems in America, I have Muslem friend and if they are in the danger that you say exist I need to let them borrow from my weapons and I need to join them to protect their families, for thay are precious to me as brothers. I know of none these friend in danger, or any of their friend being in danger, and any crime that has been comitted against them has been investigated, arrests have been made, and the persons who comitted these crimes have been punihed with prison and upto the death penality! So please provide facts from a non Muslem Conspiracy organ so I can take action to protect my Friends of Islamic Faith.

Please Diamondheart, provid news articles, date, time, location, for all of these attacks on Muslems in America, I have Muslem friend and if they are in the danger that you say exist I need to let them borrow from my weapons and I need to join them to protect their families, for thay are precious to me as brothers. I know of none these friend in danger, or any of their friend being in danger, and any crime that has been comitted against them has been investigated, arrests have been made, and the persons who comitted these crimes have been punihed with prison and upto the death penality! So please provide facts from a non Muslem Conspiracy organ so I can take action to protect my Friends of Islamic Faith.

read the newspapers & tell me one non-islamic terrorist...
donn check on the history of terrorism... we're talkin about TODAY!
off the top of my head yankie, what category does tim mcviegh fall into?
Or perhaps the so called ETA terrorists in spain or muslims too. oh and what about the tamil tigers!! oh and what about northern ireland?? do you want me to proceed??

Sure I have seen about "2" Muslim leaders "denouncing" , just about the same number that "denounced" the 100,000 Algerian victims by Islamic jihad on their own brothers.
yes Kiwi, Islamic dictators and leaders as stressed many times before are a bunch of fuckwits, who cos me maximum embarasement with there cowardice and self actualist approaches, most of these guys do not give a shit about any body. they only give a shit about themselves!!!

Zakariya, Tim McViegh did not commit his crimes against muslems, he was attacking the federal goverment, for wich he was tried, convicted, and executed, to face the judgment of God. The ETA of Spain attacks, the spanish goverment, not muslems, and in Ireland the IRA have disarmed and peace is rapididly reestablishing it self, and you did not give a answer to the question of were are all the news stories of the attrocities being committed against muslem in the US or around the world that Diamondheart claims to be takeing place? As far as I can find the vast majority of terriorism committed against muslems is committed by Muslem terrorist, this terrorism is world wide unlike many of the other terroist you have mentioned, wich is localized, and all of these have been condemed by anyone that I know!

PS: why are you not letting Diamondheart my (Honored Enemy) answer for herself, (This is a way of giveing praise to those who are worthy of engaugement in the struggle of life) and yes I'm a YANKIE and proud of it!

Diamond refers to the blatant killing of muslims by governements. like russia and checniya and Israel and palestine. And how about the killing of muslims in gugrat and kashmir.

off the top of my head yankie, what category does tim mcviegh fall into?
Or perhaps the so called ETA terrorists in spain or muslims too. oh and what about the tamil tigers!! oh and what about northern ireland?? do you want me to proceed??

yeah please proceed and name more of these terrorists who fight for their religion... who blow themselves up in public places!

Diamond refers to the blatant killing of muslims by governements. like russia and checniya and Israel and palestine. And how about the killing of muslims in gugrat and kashmir.

first go & check how many muslims have killed other people in Gujarat & Kashmir! dont be biased!

Zakariya, a interesting admission, The Palestinian goverment kills muslems, and how many of these muslems are in open revolte against these goverments? Are these fact as presented from the Muslem Conspiracy, or can you provide independent sources?

read the newspapers & tell me one non-islamic terrorist...
donn check on the history of terrorism... we're talkin about TODAY!- You didn't even check my link, did you? Here's another one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

The fact that the news don't report much about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means

The terrorist states of America, Israel, India, and Russia who daily terrorize the their Muslim minorities with violence and suppress Muslims around the world.- Just to be clear: terrorism = deliberately targeting civilians with harm in order to scare people in to favorable terms.

You people claim if a man commits suicide in a war, then he is a terrorist even if he kills soldiers. You cannot murder a soldier.- No one's claimed that. It would be nice if you didn't generalize like that.

You people think that whenever there is a bomb blast, then Muslims must be behind it even if you have no proof of this. It's about time you people learn the truth about 9/11 and london bombings.

These events were used to start a war in the Muslim world for control of this region. Visit whatreallyhappened.com for more info.- Gah, I'll have to get in to that some time. For now, sufficed to say, I know several people who'd love to find more stuff to diss the US government about, and was at a lecture with one who'd written a book on conspiracy theories and... well... If those theories had any basis for credibility, I think I would have heard of someone with competence in these things who believes it to be anything else than conspirationist nonsense....

If you know better and can find me a proper, peer-reviewed article on it, I'd love to check it out.

If you look at bomb attacks and even the suicide bombings in Palestine and Iraq, these are all responses to oppression, these are tools that freedom fighters use to kill enemy soldiers. These attacks are all retaliatory in nature, so people must realize who it is who started the war, its america, its israel.- Yet, if it wasn't for these acts of terrorism and crime, the US army would have no justification for staying. In fact, 70% of the Iraqi population are for the US maintaining a military presence if their government asks for it.

Now, I'm all for differentiating between guerilla fighters and terrorists - but saying that there isn't a significant presence of terrorism in Iraq or Palestine is nonsense. And You'll have a hard time convincing anyone that the guerilla fighters outnumber the terrorists.

- You didn't even check my link, did you? Here's another one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army

i did check out your link.... but nowhere does it say that the LRA are a global phenomenon & they blow up themselves in other countries all around the world with a motive of world domination... do they?

I don't see how that's relevant. It doesn't make them any less a terrorist group - and a pretty damn horrible one at that.

I don't know, as far as I know the IRA has disarmed and stood down, the British have stopped operations, and I haven't heard of any new deaths in Northern Ireland, The IRA stopped killing innocent people, and peace moved in do you think the PLO and Hamas, could learn something from this?

THE PLO and Hams can only learn something and things can only get better if Israel learns and is willing aswel.

Both parties have to learn together

And to learn one has to stop doing what is not a sucess strategy, the IRA stopped first and then the British had no reason to continue opperations, again might not Hamas use their native intellengce and try the IRA's approach, if it fails we then know whom to blame, if it suceeds will they not be able to claim the Honor of leading the way to peace?

I don't see how that's relevant. It doesn't make them any less a terrorist group - and a pretty damn horrible one at that.

yes if their terror is confined within a specific nation then that makes them a lot less horrible as compared to the ones spreading terrorism globally...

Nielo:

The point I was making was that a Muslim did it since Christians and Jews dont strap bombs to themselves and to show that Muslims commit violence against each other every day. This whole "Islam is peacefull" and "We dont hurt fellow Muslims" is a bunch of BS. Im not saying Jews or Christians are peacefull- were not- and neither are Muslims.

nd to learn one has to stop doing what is not a sucess strategy, the IRA stopped first and then the British had no reason to continue opperations, again might not Hamas use their native intellengce and try the IRA's approach, if it fails we then know whom to blame, if it suceeds will they not be able to claim the Honor of leading the way to peace?"

Hamas does not want peace. Its entire purpose is to destroy Isreal. Peace would prevent that and Hamas would have no purpose- no purpose no power. No power no Money. Hamas needs conflict in order to exist. People on here can rant all they want about the American (or global) Military Industrial Complex- but they need to realize that Hamas is the exact same thing.

Yes Crazy, I know that hamas dosn't want peace, I was just trying to show that this approach to peace has worked, and if I am correct this way to peace was started by the people not following the leadership of the IRA any more, that they finally had enough of the dieing and killing, while the leader ship got rich and lived in luxury.

yes if their terror is confined within a specific nation then that makes them a lot less horrible as compared to the ones spreading terrorism globally...- Read behind the link, then try to find me any global terorist group that's worse.

I don't know, as far as I know the IRA has disarmed and stood down, the British have stopped operations, and I haven't heard of any new deaths in Northern Ireland, The IRA stopped killing innocent people, and peace moved in do you think the PLO and Hamas, could learn something from this?- Sure. Israel could also probably learn from how the British govt handled the IRA.

- Read behind the link, then try to find me any global terorist group that's worse.

read it... i think u need to do some research on Islamic terrorists...
goto www.ogrish.com just one of the hundreds of thousands of websites showing wats worse than the IRA!

LRA, yank. In Uganda, not northern Ireland. Which you would know if you'd clicked the link, as there are several pictures there too. My challenge still stands.

Also, ogrish is a sick site that I won't support by visiting.

It is brainwashing and deception which makes you people look in terrorism as acceptable and unacceptable forms.You see, DiamondHearts can think rationally when she wants to - at least when it doesn't cross any of her own brainwashing (that being Islamic).

Otherwise she'd agree with her very own words:

It is brainwashing and deception which makes you people look in slavery as acceptable and unacceptable forms.

LRA, yank. In Uganda, not northern Ireland. Which you would know if you'd clicked the link, as there are several pictures there too. My challenge still stands.

Also, ogrish is a sick site that I won't support by visiting.

lol.. When did I say Ireland??? Instead of blaming me not to click the link I think you first consider reading posts properly before replying!

And why would you call Ogrish a sick site?? Because it proves my point & disaproves yours?

You said IRA, the "I" stands for Ireland :l I assumed you'd read wrong, seeing that LRA and IRA are kind of similar words - I didn't expect that you'd completely ignored the LRA alltogether. I think you should make more of an effort to keep your mind from falling off it's tracks, yank...

You know very well what it is that makes Ogrish a sick site. Quote text from the site if you think it'll support your point, but I'm not clicking that link.

You said IRA, the "I" stands for Ireland :l I assumed you'd read wrong, seeing that LRA and IRA are kind of similar words - I didn't expect that you'd completely ignored the LRA alltogether. I think you should make more of an effort to keep your mind from falling off it's tracks, yank...

You know very well what it is that makes Ogrish a sick site. Quote text from the site if you think it'll support your point, but I'm not clicking that link.

oops... sorry i meant LRA :) and come on I'm human, mistakes do happen!

and yes Ogrish is a sick site because its got sick videos... and those sick videos are the result of those terrorists you're tryin to support!

Ah, okay, sorry about that comment. Thought you were trying to change the topic alltogether :p

You do deserve some kind of rude comment for claiming that I support terrorism, though :p

That said, what I've heard of horrible acts by muslim terrorists has only involved killing people in unusual and horrible ways. As you could have read behind the link, the LRA does this and worse.

Ah, okay, sorry about that comment. Thought you were trying to change the topic alltogether :p

You do deserve some kind of rude comment for claiming that I support terrorism, though :p

That said, what I've heard of horrible acts by muslim terrorists has only involved killing people in unusual and horrible ways. As you could have read behind the link, the LRA does this and worse.

You know what I pity you... You are so hapless you don't even read what I post. Once again I'll do the honours of repeating my post in case you can understand the language English properly... and if not feel free to ask any forum members to help you out on this one...

"yes if their terror is confined within a specific nation then that makes them a lot less horrible as compared to the ones spreading terrorism globally..."

now can you?

I can, I could and I say as I guess I should have said: no it does not.

Again: find me any global terrorist group that's worse

lol... I can't help you if you want to stay ignorant as you are right now.
If you ever wanted to broaden your outlook please visit ogrish.com & you will believe what I say!

If you have any arguments, bring them on. If all you have is ugly pictures, keep them to yourself.

These pictures say more than your words...

Lets see.....
You want to hear more about what our precious muslim brothers in the global community of man are up to.

In California they are coming in posing as migrant seasonal farm workers, plotting to blow up hospitals, grocery stores and any other places where people gather.
But the worst is yet to come......
They are getting jobs as Ice Cream Truck drivers.....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002953670_lodi26.html

Exactly 'Visitor'... but 'I don't know' is too ignorant to digest these facts...
Maybe because he is one of them... lol (no offense)

I think I'm done in this thread.

Unless you had any arguments, that is.

nice talkin to you...
goodbye!

I still dont get people who live their lives according to manuals. How do people expect to grow or learn as a human beings when they allow their every opinion or action to be predecided by someone elses idea of how things should go down.

And why must every thread about islam on every forum i visit turn into some apolagist rant about how.. 'ohh christians are juuuust as bad you know'. Who cares, stop trying to change the subject, we're not talking about christianity we're talking about islam.