ok for the past two years I have considered my self a Satanist. I thought that Satanism was right compared to theists dogma but now I realize there are just as many contradictions in Satanism as other religions, while I agree with most of the philosophy it seems to be incomplete. So now im an atheists. Im not sure why I think you pepole care but what are your experiences with satanism has anyone else came to the same conclusion? link for thoses who have no idea what im talking about http://www.churchofsatan.com/
So rewrite it. Take the bits you like and change the rest. Atheism and Satanism are different categories of idea. Atheism is a single belief, whilst Satanism is a set of moral rules(kind of), a worldview and a way of life. Secular humanism is worth a look.
i found the same thing about catholisim actully it was the hirachy that tiped the balance for me so now i am agnostic i still belive there is SOMETHING out there but not in the church
ok then I shall thats kind of what ive been doing. really the reason I was thinking about being an athesit because im confused right now I think ill lay back a while in till I... well I dont know...
yumyum, Ultimately you’ll only be comfortable with something you have chosen based on your own needs. But you may not quite understand what you want or what is available. Trying things is still worthwhile. From my perspective Satanism is just another set of ideas and concepts that lack any factual basis, and I’m not prepared to believe something without a rational basis. If you are looking for ultimate answers and hope to find an institution that provides such answers then you should prepare yourself for disappointment and accept that there is still more about the universe that we don’t understand than that we do. Anyone or any institution that somehow claims to know the answers is simply not credible. Atheism is essentially a philosophy of disbelieving the claims of theists. However, most thinking atheists do follow lifestyles based on critical thinking and for determining knowledge and truth will use the scientific method. But for many this is not enough, and that leads to – Secular Humanism: Such humanists are atheists but see humans as being capable of guiding themselves and taking personal responsibility for their actions. Any rules and morality is determined based on the rational needs of humans and not for the sake of some unsubstantiated invisible supernatural fantasy. I am an atheist, but also a Secular Humanist, but I am also a technologist and I see the future for humanity very tightly coupled and dependent on future technology. So I am also a Transhumanist, which is where my real interests lie. See http://www.transhumanism.com/ I don’t know if any of that helps, but perhaps it might open other avenues for you to examine. Take care Cris
*Originally posted by yumyum I realize there are just as many contradictions in Satanism as other religions* Try Christianity. It isn't contradictory. Just don't confuse it with, say, Catholicism, which IS contradictory. *Originally posted by Cris ...and I’m not prepared to believe something without a rational basis. ... I am also a Transhumanist, which is where my real interests lie.* Hmm.
I hear an atheist guy in my class speaking against religion and said "I dont believe in religions because they caused wars and deaths". And I see atheist attempting to remove whats written in the pledge of Alegiance which says "One Nation Under God". At the same time atheist will proudly proclaim "you dont have to be a christian to be a good and respectfull person". However, almost all atheist I have encountered blaspheme the name of Jesus. Think about what i just typed above...think... Atheist by their attempt in removing what is in the Pledge of alegiance is also causing division against Christianity, many might feel like slaughtering every atheist they see because of that disrespectfull voice. Listen, atheism also causes division. It is in the human nature that people makes mistakes, all fall short and sins. For thousands of years we have been at war, some may blaim the bible, some may blaim nationalism, some may blaim culture, some my blaim race. In fact some deaths might be blaimed on rap music. All this years it is a part of human nature to make mistakes. Why then does atheist say "Religion causes war, so lets remove whats in the pledge ofg alegions one nation under God". Hey stupid atheist, your belief is also causing division and hatred right there. ALL OF U WITH ANY RELIGIONS, ANY BELIEFS, INSTEAD OF SPEAKING AGAINST SOMETHING, WHY NOT SHOW RESPECT, LOVE, AND DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE. YOU ATHEIST PPL ARE NO BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE. WE MAKE MISTAKES, AND SO DO YOU, SO INSTEAD OF RAMBLING, DO YOURSELF AND THE COMMUNITY A FAVOR AND BE RESPECTFULL, KIND, DO VOLUNTARY WORK, DONATE SOME MONEY TO CHARITY, DO SOMETHING FOR YOUR OWN SAKE. Note: Tony1, IM a strong Roman Catholic, and I do not speak against protestants, people who were once catholics and split because of perverted King Henry wanted to divorce his wife, and the confused martin Luther who says "Only in Faith alone a man is saved", when Jesus says clearly "Faith without works is dead", dead, dead, dead. IT is a fact we are the church JESUS HIMSELF FOUNDED, "PETER U R MY ROCK, UPON MY ROCK I WILL BUILD MY FOUNDATION AND NOT THE GATES OF HELL SHALL PREVAIL AGAINST IT, WHATEVER U BIND ON EARTH WILN HEAVEN,M WHATEVER U LOOSED ON EARTH WILL B LOOSED IN HEAVEN", Peter was given the permission by Jesus, and Peter in turn founded the catholic church. BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, THE PROPER THING FOR CHRISTIANS TO DO IS RESPECT ALL BELIEFS, LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND DO SOME PRODUCTIVE WORK. For many years protestants, catholics, israel, palestine, norte and surreno, kkk and all nationalities, gays and straights, etc. HUMAN RACE ARE ALWAYS COMMITING HATRED AGAINST EACH OTHER. THATS WHY U DONT SEE CATHOLICS WASTING THEIR TIME TRYING TO PROVE TO STUPID PPL THAT THEY R THE TRUE CHURCH, FOR THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS RESPECT ALL BELIEFS AND "LOVE GOD ABOVE ALL THINGS AND LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS U LOVE YOURSELF". U never hera the Pope discriminate, you hear him open minded to all cultures and all beliefs and show respect, thats what all of you guys should b doing, and that includes me...
well i take that back, i actually speak out against atheism and protestant sometimes, i have no excuses, I did what I did. we all make mistakes. there is nothing wrong about speaking the turth, but u should only speak it to those who r not pigs, willing to learn, and in a respectfull manner, unlike me most of the time,,,
Oh dear........ And Cris- Thanks for the links... I think I too am a Transhumanist.... I've always been a firm advocate of the benefits of technology, and Transhumanism seems right up that ally... Thanks for the link!
ok muscleman i started the thread on keeping god out of the pledge of Allegiance so what. ok well try to do it all the time. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! so are you saying only people that beleive in your god do good? you speak against atheist all the time yet other people that speak against you are and worthless. ha
If you're in need of a community at all, join the atheist black metal brigades. In this, we go about beating up christians, wearing grease paint and burning down churches! Judeo-Christianity is a sickly beast that should be removed from the planet to benefit the world, and we need your help!
Yumyum May the darkest blessings, then, be upon you. Some things I recall from my own Satanic days: • Anton LaVey dropped out of school and ran away with the circus at about age 16. • He has written, somewhere--or, perhaps, it is asserted in his biography (it's been years since I read this)--that LaVey came to his idea in about 1966 after observing the dynamic between the local sinners (people) and stump preachers (tent revivals). LaVey saw men who patronized the prostitutes coming to the revivals with their washed-and-combed Sunday-best families to be renewed in Jesus. • As I understand it, Satanism according to LaVey asserts to be the religion people want, one that licenses their sins. • LaVey, as a matter of my opinion, stayed too close to Christianity; Satanism seems properly offered as a direct counterpoint to Christianity, and even includes that point as its Ninth Statement of Satan: Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years! (He wasn't referring to Hindu or Buddhist churches and temples.) • Thus, I find CoS Satanism to be a little too obsessed with a conceptual war with Christianity. Satanism, above all else, is a celebration of humankind according to its animalistic reality. It responds with affirmative notions to the basic urges that society so often works to suppress. Rather than advocating outright chaos, though, Satanism seems to wish to celebrate it. Rather than mass rape, a consensual orgy as such. Satanism, in the spirit of Satan as an accuser, seeks to recognize the structures humankind has built on the earth and exploit them to the advantage of the individual. It is nothing more in this sense than hedonism given a religious aspect for psychological legitimization. What I found, as a Satanist, was that Satanism needs Christianity to go on. The form naturally accommodates the less-civilized proclivities of human nature, and requires no real godhead to execute. The elevation of Satan as a figurehead is mere accoutermant. And that's how Satanism proved valuable to me. After rejecting Christianity directly, I settled for what my friends and I called Ahrimanic Satanism, loosely based on the dark side of Ahura-Mazda or Ahriman-Ormuzd. Though I was never a particularly dedicated Satanist, and a number of events pushed me away from the philosophy, it was, in fact, Satanism that helped me break away from Christianity entirely. In the end, I came to realize that being a Satanist merely put me on the other side of the same silly competition. I wanted something more removed from the Christian fallacy than its modern, antithetical dependent. In the end, a number of things pulled me away: witchcraft, literature, academia. I found that there's not much difference between an atheist, a Satanist, and merely "being human" except for the label one applies and the conditions one thus chooses to rest upon. None of those justifying conditions ever satisfied me, though. Nonetheless, best of luck with the venture; it is my sincere hope that you can gain at least as much from this venture as I did, and a quiet hope that you will receive more. May the nightside bring you blessings, and may darkness raise you on her wings. Satanic sins: do they really need a godhead? Or do they seem somewhat common-sense? That, indeed, is the question that Satanism did not prevail over in my own experience. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
imo Satanists are just depressed christians because Satan is a christian deity (sorry if I said this in this thread efore- maybe it was the "ther is a god" one)
tiassa thanks. I have come to the same conclusions as you and i will say it has helped my get away from Christianity and in doing some learned a lot since then. Its help foster the way i look at life but I think it was just a steping stone. well good day to all.
Do Satanists have a concept of evil? What is 'evil' to a Satanist - something to embrace or to reject?
Jenyar--a place to start It's merely a conceptual base. What each individual Satanist does with it is up to them. The Law of Thelema is in effect: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. The Church of Satan: Satanic Sins It's a start. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You've got to be kidding! You mean there are actually people who believe in "doing unto others as they do unto you"and "Do what thou wilt" - No holds barred? That if it is right for you to murder, rape and glorify yourself (i.e. you were (1)smart enough to get away with it, (2)succeeded in not bragging too much about it, (3)don't expect not get murdered or raped yourself as a result, (4)providing you had honest fun, (5)did it alone, (6)asserted your individuality, (7)made sure you didn't obey any orthodox laws by accident, (8)didn't let your pride become counterproductive, and (9)at least made it look good), it's even more right for someone else?
Jenyar--a few thoughts Shocking, isn't it? The thing is that it's sort of a balance. • On the one hand, yes, there are people who believe this. However, I do wish to point out that the first part, "doing unto others as they have done unto you" in the "eye for an eye" sense exist in three Biblically-derived religions (Judaism, Christianity, Satanism) and is codified in a fourth--Islam. The sentiment does exist among atheists, and many of them do respond to the Biblically-derived cultural reference of "an eye for an eye". In terms of the second, "Do what thou wilt", it's a different story. Comparative Digression I wish to present a comparison I've used before for various things, but it's a nice direct idea this time instead of an illustrative side point. The comparison is between the Wiccan Rede and the Law of Thelema: • An thou harm none, do what thou will. (Rede) • Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. (Thelema) Now, what might seem an odd question for the moment: Why do so many (for instance) Americans who claim to be capitalists support socialist ideas? Some concepts, when wrongly focused, become vicious. Capitalism in its advertised benefits, allows opportunity to gain wealth. Capitalism in its execution more often than not views the situation as competitive and seeks to gain at the deprivation of others. But Capitalists don't seek strife and harm, they seek triumphal prosperity. As such, some Capitalists recognize that by accepting certain socialist-derived policies, they increase their opportunity to profit. Move it over into something a little more visceral: Why be kind to the homeless? Why "help" a drug addict? Because if you don't, the odds increase that a homeless person or drug addict will deprive you of what is yours. To pay for socialized education has increased profitabiity. To pay for socialized healthcare is proving to increase profitability. To pay for communal financial schemes is proving to be profitable. Charity, if even for its PR value and Q-rating, has shown to be profitable. Just bear that in mind for a moment. Back to the Rede, for starters: The Wiccan Rede specifically instructs a person to do no harm. In "eye-for-an-eye vs. other-cheek" considerations, this creates a small handful of ethical paradoxes, not the least of which are the need for defense and the permitting of harm unto others. Nonetheless, the instruction to harm none is important; it presumes that humans are not familiar with giving in order to gain benefit. The Law of Thelema has no such safeguards. Hence you're left with the possibility of fundamentalism in a way strikingly familiar to conservative Christianity. A Satanist might look at Thelema and derive from that license to do whatever. But it doesn't hold well for the obligation to the self (Satanism is entirely a self-centered religious perspective) because to go on a rape spree, for instance, endangers the self. You accept structures of courtesy because they make sense and allow an easier path to achieve the gratification you seek without endangering yourself by committing felonies. If one is willing to put such effort into obtaining illicit gratification, though, it serves them well to question why it's so important. If we look at someone compelled to rape, it seems quite obvious that the more profitable course is to seek containment assistance, symptomatic relief, and to quest after the cause. Anyone who gets away with something can be said to be a genius, of a sort. Of course, in those cases, that someone was called a crackpot before succeeding. But if we look over to the Wiccan Threefold Law, an interesting idea arises. • What you sow, so also shall you reap thrice over. It's a simple idea. But it can be taken in a fundamentalist-literalist sense as well, so take what you will from that. But it does not prescribe direct natural retribution. The classic example is shoplifting: (1) The thief recognizes the inability to provide for their needs honestly; (2) Prices rise to accommodate "shrinkage" (lost product); (3) An atmosphere of suspicion grows around illegitimacy, which affects the thief, who must exist among that suspicion, directly. As such, the idea is not to say that if you mug someone, you'll be mugged three times, or beaten three times worse. Rather it points out that as you go through the negative effects of your actions, there comes a point where you should be able to recognize that something is just not right. In that sense, one can never account fully for human stupidity. In order for the person to "get away" with rape, they would have to leave no chance that the victim knows they've been raped. Frankly, if you can drug someone, rape them, and leave no marks, scars, residues, or suspicions that something has happened, maybe you deserve to get away with it. Doesn't make it right: if it's that important to pull off, one really should ask why. Perhaps I'm conciliatory toward that position because I find it so highly improbable, and let that be a lesson to me. The purpose of documenting the Satanic sins, and especially in comparing them to the Nine Statements is somewhat direct. One must use wisdom. Adhering to conventions is not bad in itself. The out for that is to establish that the conventions adhered to reflect a profitable course, and to recognize that trying to change those conventions might bring more harm. If, however, one adheres to convention merely because it's convention, and never examines the process for its merits and challenges, one is merely being an idiot. I think that's the point of the Satanic sins. Someone who is dumb enough to isolate Thelema in any religious system and apply it as a prime directive would be able to exploit any favorable passage in any religious system anywhere. (E.g.--I've had a number of less-than-amicable discussions at Sciforums with one of our Christian advocates, who defines his mission by citing those parts of the Bible which empower him to seek ideological and authoritative supremacy. When presented with the Sermon on the Mount, or Christ's discussion of redemption and condemnation in Matthew 25, he finds some reason why these things have nothing to do with being a Christian. It's a very interesting and stupid phenomenon to face. But I fear Do what thou wilt in his hands.) While the potential for the kind of idiocy you note does exist within Satanism, and while such potential has been exploited before, the safeguard against it is the empowerment of the self through knowledge. In that sense, I digress toward the Drug War, but only for a moment: Prohibition policies show that the link between violence and illicit substances is the prohibitive policies in the first place. (Consider, please, Alcohol Prohibition, which spawned the infamous gangster wars of somewhat-romantic yore.) Take something like marijuana, which is wrongly besmirched as being more addictive and harmful than cocaine or methamphetamine. There is, in fact, a certain seedy side to even my happy-hazy stoner world. But that all exists merely because we're daily felons. But by keeping marijuana illegal, we see some credence given to the "gateway drug" theory that says marijuana leads to cocaine, heroin, and other problems. Now ... from that .... Satanism by itself is merely a philosophy which advocates the celebration and empowerment of the self. However, because it is associated with a certain sense of evil (and, by the terminology, I understand why this is), it tends to attract a certain high proportion of seedy outcasts. I know a few people who came to Satanism seeking power to get money, get revenge, ad nauseam. So like marijuana, Satanism's existence amid a lesser condition dictates that it will suffer the problems of that lesser realm. Satanism would actually work if only people were smart enough, but that apparently is part of the point. But yes, there are some people who take that kind of stuff as literally and with as much hostility as possible. That "Satanic" crimes licensed in the perpetrator's mind by religion are few and far between (relatively speaking) does help dispel some of the nervousness that such a potentially-volatile philosophy invokes. Let me know what doesn't make sense. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
