Ignorance is bliss, who agrees or disagrees with this quote and why.

I personally believe that that this quote is bull. For someone to lack knowledge would be like not living. You would be too stupid to know anything therefore what is the point of living if you're basically nothing more than shell passing time day by day. Or maybe im misunderstanding the quote, and it doesn't necesarily mean permenant stupidity. All i know is knowledge is better than stupidity, unless someone can prove me wrong.

That statement is valid in some contexts, not so much in others.

Real simple:

When it comes to the life story of The Backstreet Boyz or some equally pathetic gathering of shits, OMFG, ignorance is blissful for me. Oh, ignorance of the extent of the absolute shit that that spew?!?!? Oh please can I remain ignorant? I beg this of you!!!!

But of course on the other hand, I like to know some stuff about some stuff. In that case, ignorance is an annoyance, depending on the ease of which is can be dissolved.

If ignorance was bliss, how would you know?

Well, I'm pretty fucking happy I don't know much about the back street asses! :)

But you can't knooooooow that ignorance is bliss until you don't haaaaaaave it anymore.

Maybe the Backstreet Boys are jeeeeest your type. But now you'll neeeeeeeeeeever know.

For instance, would you rather know or not, whether your partner was cheating on you.

In order words, sometimes the anxiety, pressure, etc that comes with knowing something is not worth it.

Ignorance is bliss REVISITED

A while back there was a thread very similar to this one created by wes...

Ignorance can be bliss. I think what that statement means, to me anyhow, is "No need to come to grips with." For example; Countless people die every single day in third world countries because of malnourishment, while the majority of people in modern industrialized nations eat to gluttonous proportions. Why? Because specific circumstances, in industrialized nations, provide the perfect environment for gluttony - wealth. The opposite is true in third world nations - no wealth. That is fact. Can "I" logically deduct that knowing this will equate to "my" bliss? I think not. Can I logically deduct that "coming to grips with" this fact will equate to bliss? Possibly. Can I logically deduct that not knowing at all that people die each day in third world nations - while we here in wealthy countries eat like pigs - will equate to bliss? Not necessarily. Can I logically deduct that not knowing at all that people die each day in third world nations, while I'm eating a Big Mac with Super Size Fies washed down with a Super Size Coke, equate to my blissful gluttony? Most definately!

But you can't knooooooow that ignorance is bliss until you don't haaaaaaave it anymore.

Maybe the Backstreet Boys are jeeeeest your type. But now you'll neeeeeeeeeeever know.

And that makes me happy. :)

After some thought it occured to me; I read the question, "Is Ignorance Bliss" to mean, "Can Bliss be Found in Ignorance?". If the latter is measured then the answer is YES - but the former is inconclusive.

I think it depends on the context. If the knowledge is bad/hurtful/unnecessary, then yeah it's bliss not to know it. But like someone said, you don't usually know until afterwards, and then you always want what you can't have. :rolleyes:

I believe that ignorance is bliss only among those who are not (sadly) intelligent enough to realize the scope of their own ignorance. For those who crave and seek out knowledge, the unavailability of information proves tormenting. In such cases, bliss seeps in slowly beneath the awareness of the inevitability of death.

Alright, here it is... I wouldn't dream of adopting such a mission statement in life, but ignorance is bliss. Why else do you think there are so many dummies perambulating the world. All those who adhere to mysticism are veritably ignorant, all those pious, all the puppets of society, all the robots, all the sheep following the very few number of shepperds, they're all ignorant and yet, seem so content and happy. Why? Because it's easier to go through life without asking why, what, where, when, who and how. It's not easy to be introspective, evident by the number of those who follow in today's world. Life is neutral, there's good and bad, some choose not to heed that and rather, go through life with "faith" and "hope" in mystical supernatural forces "beyond" them. It is for this reason that I deduce the euphoria that comes along with being ignorant. How easy is it to just let society indoctrinate you into believing that there's forces outside of our control and we should put all our faith into mysticism (note for the slow: religion/faith is mystical, look it up). That's just one of the many practical applications I could suffice for this statement of mine.

A lot of people are quite satisfied living in their little "bubbles" (metaphorically speaking).

How many people really think for themselves, think OUTSIDE THE BOX, how many can you really deem as not being ignorant. Having said that, ignorance is not bliss to me, and again, keep in mind that what's blissful is subjective and different to everyone, but it's fair to say that there's a lot of people out there who see ignorance as euphoria. The ignorant are the vast majority of this world.

Ignorance is an optimal state in the process of knowing

(proof)

Ignorance I = all what we do not know

Knowledge K = all that we know

you start at I=K as a baby

then the bigger the K will became the I will become/be still bigger then K (the more you know (K) the more you do no know(I) cq. Einstein:<i> "The bigger the circle of light, the bigger the perimeter of darkness surrounding it </i> thus K < I is a <b>law</b> as such.

So anybody who is not ignorant will get the following

I-K >0 (K-I<0) which shows that he/she is more ignorant then knowing.

Total ignorance
I=K is optimal.

Ignorance is an optimal state in the process of knowing

(proof)

Ignorance I = all what we do not know

Knowledge K = all that we know

you start at I=K as a baby

then the bigger the K will became the I will become/be still bigger then K (the more you know (K) the more you do no know(I) cq. Einstein:<i> "The bigger the circle of light, the bigger the perimeter of darkness surrounding it </i> thus K < I is a <b>law</b> as such.

So anybody who is not ignorant will get the following

I-K >0 (K-I<0) which shows that he/she is more ignorant then knowing.

Total ignorance
I=K is optimal.



Despite your rhetoric, I'm quite sure you knew/know what I mean. So it holds no weight, if you want to argue semantics, do so with someone else.

The ignorant are the vast majority of this world.

Chalaco, thank you for sharing your Weltanschauung. You are evidently one of
those few knowledgeable people who can indeed see the light and could lead
the herd toward a better future if asked to do so. In the hardships of life
I often find consolation in the thought that people like you are around and
will undoubtedly show the light to the rest when such help is urgently
needed. But irony aside, you speak as if the question words you listed had
some magic power and those who believe in something else, those who have
"faith" in your terms, would be too stupid to realize how simple the world
really is. Besides, if you really believe there are no forces not under our
control, I'd suggest you try to take a little wider perspective. As to
"thinking outside the box", well, what makes you so sure you're doing that?
Isn't it possible that your box is just a little more convenient for you
than that of those you despise?

Chalaco, thank you for sharing your Weltanschauung. You are evidently one of
those few knowledgeable people who can indeed see the light and could lead
the herd toward a better future if asked to do so. In the hardships of life
I often find consolation in the thought that people like you are around and
will undoubtedly show the light to the rest when such help is urgently
needed. But irony aside, you speak as if the question words you listed had
some magic power and those who believe in something else, those who have
"faith" in your terms, would be too stupid to realize how simple the world
really is. Besides, if you really believe there are no forces not under our
control, I'd suggest you try to take a little wider perspective. As to
"thinking outside the box", well, what makes you so sure you're doing that?
Isn't it possible that your box is just a little more convenient for you
than that of those you despise?


Despite the obvious sarcasm behind your rebuttal. I should have you know I do not care to "lead the herd", so you intimating that I'm some sort of populist out to convert everyone to my way of thinking simply for the sake of benevolence is bollocks. And what's funny is that I really can't seem to recall ever saying I think outside the box. :bugeye: Far as the 'question words' over believing in something else, logic and reason suffice, why feel the need to put anything over them, I know I don't. And as far as the focres beyond our control point goes, some people use religion as a cop-out, an excuse, marx said it and I second that notion. People just sit back and watch the foolery go down and take it because it's "God's will". "Thy will be done". They believe -- know what, you know what I meant by all that :bugeye: . My guess is you're a pious charlatan who took offense to my comment and took it as me saying all those who are pious are stupid (I do happen to believe that, but I digress), and because you felt the exact opposite, you replied with your facetious satirical rhetoric. Although I can speculate, for I do not know for sure, and I wouldn't go off passing my assumptions on others as facts.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

Despite the obvious sarcasm behind your rebuttal. I should have you know I do not care to "lead the herd", so you intimating that I'm some sort of populist out to convert everyone to my way of thinking simply for the sake of benevolence is bollocks. And what's funny is that I really can't seem to recall ever saying I think outside the box. :bugeye: Far as the 'question words' over believing in something else, logic and reason suffice, why feel the need to put anything over them, I know I don't. And as far as the focres beyond our control point goes, some people use religion as a cop-out, an excuse, marx said it and I second that notion. People just sit back and watch the foolery go down and take it because it's "God's will". "Thy will be done". They believe -- know what, you know what I meant by all that :bugeye: .

Maybe in the environment you live there are a lot of such people, so you've come to the conclusion that the majority of people on earth are like that. Generalizing from inside a box...


My guess is you're a pious charlatan


Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

Your words, not mine :D


who took offense to my comment and took it as me saying all those who are pious are stupid (I do happen to believe that, but I digress), and because you felt the exact opposite, you replied with your facetious satirical rhetoric. Although I can speculate, for I do not know for sure, and I wouldn't go off passing my assumptions on others as facts.


Don't take any opinion so seriously. Or do so, if you want to. Still what you wrote is still just an opinion based on narrow personal experience. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, I didn't know it was that important for you. Please ignore my previous post (and this one too if you want).

Maybe in the environment you live there are a lot of such people, so you've come to the conclusion that the majority of people on earth are like that. Generalizing from inside a box...

yeah, the box that is the world we live in, statistics show theists to be the vast majority in the fifth world (yeah, I said fifth, not third, sh!t is dirt poor and it's only getting poor, thus I label countries full of pauperism as being of the fifth world, hyperbolic or not). If some of these people really weren't like how I've depicted, or shall I say, assumed them to be, then this world would be a lot different... A LOT different!

Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives.

Your words, not mine :D


touche Although, I figured if you were using ad hominem, I might as well join in the fun... though that doesn't justify it, by any means.



Don't take any opinion so seriously. Or do so, if you want to. Still what you wrote is still just an opinion based on narrow personal experience. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, I didn't know it was that important for you. Please ignore my previous post (and this one too if you want).


I wasn't taking it personal nor seriously. Only thing that bothered me a little was your insinuation that I'm the type that thinks this world is crumbling and I must help all those indigent and I'm right and everybody is wrong, when in fact, that's very far from the truth. I wouldn't change this world for nothing, not a damn thing about myself, nto a damn thing about thsi world (well maybe make it a little warmer in Toronto during Winter). This is my eutopia, so don't go off writing me as being some revolutionary pinko. But rest assured, you didn't strike a nerve.

Chal, you hit the nail again by reminding me of the facts of statistics! If I had thought of that earlier, I wouldn't have dared to be impertinent to you. I apologize again! (By the way, your thread about Descarte is cool.)

Chal, you hit the nail again by reminding me of the facts of statistics! If I had thought of that earlier, I wouldn't have dared to be impertinent to you. I apologize again! (By the way, your thread about Descarte is cool.)

don't patronize me

don't patronize me

Your words hurt me. But enough now! I must be strong and accept that your fate calls you to explore different fields. Boldly go where no man has gone before! So long!

Your words hurt me. But enough now! I must be strong and accept that your fate calls you to explore different fields. Boldly go where no man has gone before! So long!

don't patronize me

I wasn't taking it personal nor seriously. Only thing that bothered me a little was your insinuation that I'm the type that thinks this world is crumbling and I must help all those indigent and I'm right and everybody is wrong, when in fact, that's very far from the truth. I wouldn't change this world for nothing, not a damn thing about myself, nto a damn thing about thsi world (well maybe make it a little warmer in Toronto during Winter). This is my eutopia, so don't go off writing me as being some revolutionary pinko. But rest assured, you didn't strike a nerve.
By you saying that you wouldn't change one thing about the world (except for the weather in Toronto), aren't you putting yourself in 'the box'?

All those who adhere to mysticism are veritably ignorant, all those pious, all the puppets of society, all the robots, all the sheep following the very few number of shepperds, they're all ignorant and yet, seem so content and happy. Why? Because it's easier to go through life without asking why, what, where, when, who and how. It's not easy to be introspective, evident by the number of those who follow in today's world. Life is neutral, there's good and bad, some choose not to heed that and rather, go through life with "faith" and "hope" in mystical supernatural forces "beyond" them. It is for this reason that I deduce the euphoria that comes along with being ignorant. How easy is it to just let society indoctrinate you into believing that there's forces outside of our control and we should put all our faith into mysticism (note for the slow: religion/faith is mystical, look it up). That's just one of the many practical applications I could suffice for this statement of mine.
Some people who do have faiths and beliefs in the mystical might see you as you see them, as being ignorant. You are quite happy in your belief that the spiritual realm does not exist, and that those who believe in such things are ignorant. Yet those who do believe in what you so despise could view you as being ignorant as well. They could easily say that ignorance goes two ways. You stated above that you wouldn't want to change anything about the world. Society could easily have indoctrinated you in the same way in which it indoctrinated the believers. How do you know for sure that a greater being does not exist? Believers could view your ignorance in disbelief as being your bliss. You have assumed that the majority of the believers have not asked the why? what? where? etc, yet they could assume the same thing about you. They could easily tell you that your sense of euphoria in calling them ignorant makes you just as bad as they are, living within the box that their society has supposedly placed them and living there in a state of ignorance.

A lot of people are quite satisfied living in their little "bubbles" (metaphorically speaking).

How many people really think for themselves, think OUTSIDE THE BOX, how many can you really deem as not being ignorant. Having said that, ignorance is not bliss to me, and again, keep in mind that what's blissful is subjective and different to everyone, but it's fair to say that there's a lot of people out there who see ignorance as euphoria. The ignorant are the vast majority of this world.

From your statement above, you seem quite blissful living within your little box of an unchanged society. Isn't your not changing the world and you living in your utopia your form of bliss? Isn't that your way of living in your own little box which society has given you? Doesn't your belief in that make you just as ignorant those who believe in the mystical? Haven't you put yourself in the same box as everyone else?

"Only thing that bothered me a little was your insinuation that I'm the type that thinks this world is crumbling and I must help all those indigent and I'm right and everybody is wrong, when in fact, that's very far from the truth. I wouldn't change this world for nothing, not a damn thing about myself, nto a damn thing about thsi world (well maybe make it a little warmer in Toronto during Winter). This is my eutopia, so don't go off writing me as being some revolutionary pinko."
After re-reading that, I find myself thinking that you exist in your own little box and you are quite happy to be there. You think you're right about what you believe in regards to a belief in a higher being and that those who do believe are ignorant. Aren't you saying that you're right and all those who believe in something higher are wrong? It appears as though you are advocating living in your little box of disbelief and branding society as you see fit, just the same as the people who do believe in God, etc and branding society as they see fit. You in your disbelief are exactly the same as those who live in their belief. After all, they believe that everyone who does not believe is wrong, and you're saying that those who do believe is wrong. You've put yourself in your own little box that your society has given you and you are happy to be there without change. Good for you.

By you saying that you wouldn't change one thing about the world (except for the weather in Toronto), aren't you putting yourself in 'the box'?

Funny, but I don't recall ever saying people were living "in the box", but rather that most are very linear in thought -- unable to think outside the box. Now, if you had said their "bubbles", then you would've had the right to quote me as saying such because I did make reference to that. But at least, unlike porteus42, you didn't reply with verbose sarcasm. For that, I commend you.

I say I wouldn't change this world because I realize that life is neutral and for all the good, there has to be bad, and vice versa. The things I want to change about this world and my life I will change, I don't need to list them on a forum for all to heed, I thought that went without saying, I wasn't trying to say that I'm going to stay stagnated, I was simply making the point that I don't care to change everyone's point of view, or have the whole world be x religion, or to only have x amount of crime, so on and so forth. Perhaps, I didn't make it lucid enough, my apologies. And perhaps, it is those who want to change the world in all these miraculous ways because they are not happy and/or content in life, in THEIR lives. I have enough problems in my own backyard, as I'm sure everyone else does, so I think I'll clean up my backyard before cleaning up the whole neighborhood's backyards.


Some people who do have faiths and beliefs in the mystical might see you as you see them, as being ignorant. You are quite happy in your belief that the spiritual realm does not exist, and that those who believe in such things are ignorant. Yet those who do believe in what you so despise could view you as being ignorant as well. They could easily say that ignorance goes two ways. You stated above that you wouldn't want to change anything about the world. Society could easily have indoctrinated you in the same way in which it indoctrinated the believers. How do you know for sure that a greater being does not exist? Believers could view your ignorance in disbelief as being your bliss. You have assumed that the majority of the believers have not asked the why? what? where? etc, yet they could assume the same thing about you. They could easily tell you that your sense of euphoria in calling them ignorant makes you just as bad as they are, living within the box that their society has supposedly placed them and living there in a state of ignorance


Well, birdbrain, I am agnostic, so that irrational shlt won't fly over here. Allow me to quote acid cowboy on this one...

"I'm an agnostic because I think both theism and atheism are irrational.

How can you be so sure that something exists if you can't see it, hear it, touch it, etc.?

How can you say that something can't possibly exist just because you can't see it, hear it, touch it, etc.?"

That settles that.

Now, as for society indoctrinating me, if you knew what the word meant maybe you'd use it in the right context. Society hasn't indoctrinated me, and if it has, it has in the ways that are inescapable. Conformity is inescapable, but that doesn't mean I have to conform to the status quo. Collectivism, is not inescapable. Yeah sure, theists could CALL me ignorant for NOT BELIEVING, but come on now, we both know what's up. I've had my tirade against religion, against piety, against mysticism, and laying out my the overt reasons why any REASONABLE person wouldn't adhere to such a specious doctrine would be an excercise in futility. Course you know this, unless you happen to be of the pious variety.


From your statement above, you seem quite blissful living within your little box of an unchanged society. Isn't your not changing the world and you living in your utopia your form of bliss? Isn't that your way of living in your own little box which society has given you? Doesn't your belief in that make you just as ignorant those who believe in the mystical? Haven't you put yourself in the same box as everyone else?


No, junior, it is not. But hey, it's nice to see you've drawn conclusions as to how I am by reading just three of my posts. Job well done. Life is great, it's not going to get any greater unless we put words into action, so I choose not to list what I feel should change in my life and in this world, I'll just act upon them. Life's not going to suddenly become lopsided and turn to mostly good with a touch of evil, or become a world full of 'rogues' who have 'vices' with just a hint of "good people'. No. Life is neutral and life is beuatiful.

The only 'box' that I share with everyone else is this world and life itself. I've used the wrong wording (so to speak) and didn't make my points lucid enough in prior posts, my take on the situation came across as something otherwise. You've failed to see the follies behind mysticism, GOOD FOR YOU! :bugeye:


If I have to explicate to every boorish child why mysticism, piety and religion are specious and irrational, I'm afraid I might post cumbersome, lackadaisical posts much like your own. I'm left wondering why I've even entertained you with a rebutall. If you have a problem with something I've posted such as being against piety and religion in general, deal with it on your own, I'd just as soon go into mass detail about why I feel such and such on religion/piety/mysticism, but it would be prove to be an excercise in futility, nothing can get through to you theists.

Oh I am sorry, I was only reading it as I saw it.. silly me:rolleyes:. Maybe next time I shall go through all the posts you've ever made on this forum before I begin to form an opinion:).

Personally, I believe that life is only as neutral and as beautiful as you make it, in your own little 'bubble'. Life changes constantly as does what we see as being beautiful. But then hey, that's just me. Is my ignorance bliss by believing in this? Then yes, I guess it is.

Oh I am sorry, I was only reading it as I saw it.. silly me:rolleyes:. Maybe next time I shall go through all the posts you've ever made on this forum before I begin to form an opinion:).

Personally, I believe that life is only as neutral and as beautiful as you make it, in your own little 'bubble'. Life changes constantly as does what we see as being beautiful. But then hey, that's just me. Is my ignorance bliss by believing in this? Then yes, I guess it is.


I never said to go through all my posts, you're getting ahead of yourself. I made the remark saying you've formulated an opinion on me being whatever it is you think of me as being simply from three posts I've made in THIS THREAD, you were assuming things about me that I had not mentioned (for example, assuming, much like proteus42, that clever tyke, assuming me to be the type to "despise" piety/mysticism/religion/etc., I never said that).

My ignorance is blissful too. For instance, watching babies and children starving and dying in africa would make me 'feel bad for them', so I choose not to not watch the infomercials and all that when they come on because I come from a country of the third world full of indigence. Simply because I do not want to be reminded of the pauperism -- I go back home all the time, I know what it's like, I do what I can, I still feel bad -- so watching that infomercial will only make it worse, so I don't watch it. Sometimes I do watch it (though I hardly watch TV, but the practical application still applies) to be reminded and to stay grounded. Ignorance is bliss, and at least I apply it to stuff that is conducive to my happiness. Now you could argue that religion makes people happy, yet christianity, for example, is all about suffering, you're not good enough, exonerate yourself, repent, this the morals you should have, blah blah blah.

I agree that we are all in our little 'bubbles' and life is as beautiful as you make it, it's all a matter of opinion, yet my 'bubble' is just a tad bit smaller, simply because it's not filled to the top with the irrationality of piety/mysticism/theism/etc.

And how can you argue that life is not neutral. For there to be good, there has to be bad.

I agree that we are all in our little 'bubbles' and life is as beautiful as you make it, it's all a matter of opinion, yet my 'bubble' is just a tad bit smaller, simply because it's not filled to the top with the irrationality of piety/mysticism/theism/etc.

And how can you argue that life is not neutral. For there to be good, there has to be bad.
What I'm trying to say is that to those who believe in the piety, mysticism and theism, that is their rationality. I personally can't say that to believe in something outside of what I know and see is irrational. I know many people who find rational thought in such beliefs. I, like you, am agnostic, but I don't discount what I don't know for sure as being irrational. I just leave it as something unknown to me personally. If someone finds happiness in believing in some greater deity, who am I to say that it is irrational. I am no one. Just an individual with my own beliefs. Just as the believers are in themselves no one and only individuals in their own beliefs. That's just my personal opinion, which only matters to me and no one else. They are my own and belong only to me.

And I can't view life as being neutral because while you are right in saying that for there to be good, there must be evil, I view it as something that is constantly changing. To be neutral would mean that it was colourless, that it had a sameness to it. Life is never the same. Life for me changes by the second. There can be more good than evil, just as there can be more evil than good. It all constantly moves and it all constantly changes.

What I'm trying to say is that to those who believe in the piety, mysticism and theism, that is their rationality. I personally can't say that to believe in something outside of what I know and see is irrational. I know many people who find rational thought in such beliefs. I, like you, am agnostic, but I don't discount what I don't know for sure as being irrational. I just leave it as something unknown to me personally. If someone finds happiness in believing in some greater deity, who am I to say that it is irrational. I am no one. Just an individual with my own beliefs. Just as the believers are in themselves no one and only individuals in their own beliefs. That's just my personal opinion, which only matters to me and no one else. They are my own and belong only to me.


Good, so we have come to an accord then, your beliefs are yours and mine are mine, and only mine (though I still differ in opinion when it comes to this 'theism can be rational to theists' business, but I don't want to get into it). It is no longer pertinent.


And I can't view life as being neutral because while you are right in saying that for there to be good, there must be evil, I view it as something that is constantly changing. To be neutral would mean that it was colourless, that it had a sameness to it. Life is never the same. Life for me changes by the second. There can be more good than evil, just as there can be more evil than good. It all constantly moves and it all constantly changes.


Well, I've taken the liberty of looking up the word neutral to see if it supports my claim. Hmmm... YUP, it's on point. For there to be good, there has to be evil, and YES, there can be more good than evil, and vice versa (I know that goes against what I said earlier, but I've since come to my senses). But that doesn't mean it's not neutral, look it up (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=neutral) And of course, life is never the same, who ever said it was, life will never be linear.

"FOR IN MUCH WISDOM IS MUCH GRIEF: AND HE THAT INCREASES KNOWLEDGE INCREASES SORROW." Ecclesiastes 1:18

(So, who says none of the Bible is true, huh?!)

PMT

"FOR IN MUCH WISDOM IS MUCH GRIEF: AND HE THAT INCREASES KNOWLEDGE INCREASES SORROW." Ecclesiastes 1:18

(So, who says none of the Bible is true, huh?!)

PMT

Yup. If you have an eye to see it, the Bible contains a lot of wisdom. And the Upanishads, the Tao Te Ching, etc.,etc. too. The dogmatic who believes himself "modern and enlightened" misses a lot of opportunities to learn, because his unshakeable robust opinions make him believe people on the other side talk sheer nonsense. Good for him? I don't know. He's like somebody that after listening to speech in a foreign language declares it "only babble".

And of course this is true of the other side too: the "pious" and the "modern" are often just the same dogmatic herd. Both have "arrived at the Truth", and both can "see" that what the other side believe in "is folly". Both are entrenched in his own ways, and feel safe there.

Yup. If you have an eye to see it, the Bible contains a lot of wisdom. And the Upanishads, the Tao Te Ching, etc.,etc. too. The dogmatic who believes himself "modern and enlightened" misses a lot of opportunities to learn, because his unshakeable robust opinions make him believe people on the other side talk sheer nonsense. Good for him? I don't know. He's like somebody that after listening to speech in a foreign language declares it "only babble".

And of course this is true of the other side too: the "pious" and the "modern" are often just the same dogmatic herd. Both have "arrived at the Truth", and both can "see" that what the other side believe in "is folly". Both are entrenched in his own ways, and feel safe there.


Would I happen to be this "dogmatic" you speak of?

I think I am. Let me inform you that I need not explain myself to you. I should have you know, I done went to catholic school from grades one to eight, was raised catholic, read the book of zen here and there (tantamount to a passage a day), so that takes care of that.

I also do not feel as if though I have "arrived at the truth", you make assumptions, and I know you're going to combat with, "I was not speaking of you", when it was fairly overt you were inferring some of that to me, if not at least one of your points. If I'm 'entrenched' in my own ways, we all are.

Would I happen to be this "dogmatic" you speak of?

I think I am. Let me inform you that I need not explain myself to you. I should have you know, I done went to catholic school from grades one to eight, was raised catholic, read the book of zen here and there (tantamount to a passage a day), so that takes care of that.

I also do not feel as if though I have "arrived at the truth", you make assumptions, and I know you're going to combat with, "I was not speaking of you", when it was fairly overt you were inferring some of that to me, if not at least one of your points. If I'm 'entrenched' in my own ways, we all are.

Ah, comerade Chalaco, so nice to hear from you! When we said goodbye I was certain we were to depart for ever. I'm glad I was mistaken after all.

Why did you think my post was about you? If you read it carefully, you'll see I'm talking about dogmatic people in general and nothing is mentioned that could be taken to refer to you personally. I was talking about the "modern" and the "pious" people at the same time, please recall, which is at a slightly higher level of generality than "the person named Chalaco". What made you recognize yourself from my description?

However, your keen interest in my post makes me do my best to give you some more information on what I was talking about. I was talking about a type of personality which is characterized by 1) an intolerant and contemptuous attitude toward what they can't understand, 2) making sweeping generalizations, and 3) a certain type of rigidity manifesting itself in taking themselves very seriously and in the lack of any sense of humour.

Nothing in the above description implies that it was you who I had in mind writing it.

Ah, comerade Chalaco, so nice to hear from you! When we said goodbye I was certain we were to depart for ever. I'm glad I was mistaken after all.

Why did you think my post was about you? If you read it carefully, you'll see I'm talking about dogmatic people in general and nothing is mentioned that could be taken to refer to you personally. I was talking about the "modern" and the "pious" people at the same time, please recall, which is at a slightly higher level of generality than "the person named Chalaco". What made you recognize yourself from my description?

However, your keen interest in my post makes me do my best to give you some more information on what I was talking about. I was talking about a type of personality which is characterized by 1) an intolerant and contemptuous attitude toward what they can't understand, 2) making sweeping generalizations, and 3) a certain type of rigidity manifesting itself in taking themselves very seriously and in the lack of any sense of humour.

Nothing in the above description implies that it was you who I had in mind writing it.


The latter! :bugeye:

Funny how you have yet to reply to thsi thread without making reference to me, and adding verbose sarcasm. Well, funny to me, anyway.

Ah, yes, I see now. Because I do not CONCUR with something, because I happen to objurgate it, it must mean I don't UNDERSTAND it..... I'm beginning to see the light :bugeye:

I chide piety because it is something I don't unerstand... damn, if only you could have told me earlier, I wouldn't have put up such a struggle :bugeye:

You're logorrhic rhetoric is no longer welcome. You say nothing, and I retort with, nothing, because we both say nothing about nothing, of nothing, I think the end of this is nigh. Consider it over.

But hey, I'm glad to see you enjoyed my Descarte thread. I aim to please

Ignorance Is bliss... well in order to understand the quote you need to understand what exactly ignorance is. I think the qote is very insightfull and valid. Think about it.......Ignorance.......without the knowledge of......Someone who was born blind is ignorant to how beautiful it owuld be to see.... but yet give him the knowledge of seeing for a day and take it away and he will be miserable...he will now know what he is missing out on......he will develop a desire to see. the same thing goes with almost anything else. Now as far as Ignorance makeing your life worthless that is a relative question. If you were an ignorant person you would not know you were ignorant there for you would not think you were liveing a worthless life. I do believe that ignorance is bliss. Most of the times its our self percieved knowledge that makes our lives hell and make things sooo diffuicult to deal with. But then again some people like things difficult and most of them are in denial about it..........

Laters........
Sly1

Ignorance Is bliss... well in order to understand the quote you need to understand what exactly ignorance is. I think the qote is very insightfull and valid. Think about it.......Ignorance.......without the knowledge of......Someone who was born blind is ignorant to how beautiful it owuld be to see.... but yet give him the knowledge of seeing for a day and take it away and he will be miserable...he will now know what he is missing out on......he will develop a desire to see. the same thing goes with almost anything else. Now as far as Ignorance makeing your life worthless that is a relative question. If you were an ignorant person you would not know you were ignorant there for you would not think you were liveing a worthless life. I do believe that ignorance is bliss. Most of the times its our self percieved knowledge that makes our lives hell and make things sooo diffuicult to deal with. But then again some people like things difficult and most of them are in denial about it..........

Laters........
Sly1


Well put, I especially like the latter portion of the post where you talk about people liking this difficult, now let's get some congregation on that.

PROTEUS42:

Thank you for your response. I too read Eastern religious philosophy, and never hestiate to get what I can from whatever I can. Here to learn, born to be beautiful...I am still working on both.

I am ever amazed how the universe is designed to feed those who are hungry. Many wonderful experiences have come at such an opportune times in my life. And, I mean this most seriously: once we draw close to a place of peace and learning, good does seem to gravitate toward us, and sometimes from unusual places. Anytime I become upset about one thing or another, although it may take me a while, when I stop kicking, things work out.

The things you say could have been said by me, -then I would be in trouble, huh? :(

It would be interesting to know more about your philosophy, so I will watch for more from you, and your friend too. ;)

God bless us one and all.

The statement ignorance is bliss is far too blanketing to be of any worth. While I may wish to remain ignorant of the tumour which will kill me, I may also be desperately frustrated by my ignorance in another area. However, I feel I may be "cheating" to some extent there, since the latter reference to ignorance implies that you know what answer you are looking for, but just can't get it.

Ignorance is bliss, who agrees or disagrees with this quote and why.

I personally believe that that this quote is bull. For someone to lack knowledge would be like not living. You would be too stupid to know anything therefore what is the point of living if you're basically nothing more than shell passing time day by day. Or maybe im misunderstanding the quote, and it doesn't necesarily mean permenant stupidity. All i know is knowledge is better than stupidity, unless someone can prove me wrong.

Children don't know much, and they are happy. Of course, their mothers take care of them, so... whatever. :D
But animals are happy. Or at least they seem to be...

I think that this quote came to be because people that know something might get worried and a much as you know, more worried you become.

Just a thought... ;)

Children wet their pants, and get beaten for it, and animals are subject to all manner of cruelty as are children, and are slaughtered daily by man. So, I guess I do not get the point. Of course, we must not forget that the reason for much of this is the ignorance of man.

Here is a quote someone sent to me some time ago. I thought it seemed timely, and would maybe stir up something interesting. You are a great bunch, and I am sure that many of you know more than me about Taoism;
yet, I do not seem to be able to enjoy good stuff no matter where I find it, and I am sure that you do too. ;)

"We live in a world promoting ignorance, vivifying the illusionary, and
ignoring, even denying, the true essence of things. Fighting ignorance
has therefore become a constant vigil against negative influence, which
can take the form of peer pressure, the group mind, government
propaganda, or subtle and brash forms of an omnipresent advertising
industry. Our consumer society is focused on evoking greed and
inflating the ego, and it is difficult to isolate ourselves from its
negative influences. Governments often fan the flames of blind
patriotism. Often, our professions, social pressures and education
promote and demand an egotistical life style which runs contrary to a
compassionate and wise approach to life. Many people seem to have no
alternative but to follow life styles which strengthen their own egos
and ignorance.

In this environment hostile to the spirit, it is difficult to rid
oneself of ignorance and to move with the freedom only harmony with the
Tao, and compassion and wisdom, can bring."

CORRECTION: I do [PLEASE LEAVE OUT "not"] seem to be able to enjoy good stuff no matter where I find it, and I am sure that you do too.

PROTEUS42:
Thank you for your response. I too read Eastern religious philosophy, and never hestiate to get what I can from whatever I can. Here to learn, born to be beautiful...I am still working on both.

I am ever amazed how the universe is designed to feed those who are hungry. Many wonderful experiences have come at such an opportune times in my life. And, I mean this most seriously: once we draw close to a place of peace and learning, good does seem to gravitate toward us, and sometimes from unusual places. Anytime I become upset about one thing or another, although it may take me a while, when I stop kicking, things work out.
God bless us one and all.

I like your way of looking at the world. I've often had the experience
you describe of "things working together to help" and although I don't
believe in supernatural anthropomorphic powers, I think my and your
experiences can't be put down as "illusions induced by intense wishful
thinking".

As to ignorance, I think there are two related interpretations of the
title of our thread. On the one hand, Ignorance Is Bliss means that
not knowing about (sinister) possibilities frees the mind of useless
worrying. Worrying over the future is the most common feeling whether
we are conscious of its present or succeed in forgetting it for some
time.

But ignorance is related to "ignore", so Ignorance Is Bliss means, on
the other hand, that you have developed a mind disciplined in the art
of ignoring things you can't change and so have to put up with. A mind
that does not worry over what is inescapable such as all kinds of
uncertainty of life, and ultimately death itself, in spite of the fact
that it does know about them. As far as I can see Zen aims at
disciplining the mind in such a way that it "gets home" through a
series of satories and finally is able to accept fully and completely
the consequences of having been born to be a human.

illusions induced by intense wishful thinking
This might just happen. Let me explain (this is only my view). All thoughts are a form of energy and energy has the ability to turn into matter by slowly down. When you think (alot) of the similar thought, those energy has the opportunity to meet and slow down to create reality. However, the reality we are experiencing is all but an illusion. Therefore the statement can be true.

As to ignorance. To many people I think today are living in ignorance, even myself sometimes. This allows us not to worry about the consequences of your daily choices. Many of us live lives as if they are sleepwalking, and often wonder why things happen to them. They don't realise it's their attitudes that brought them these experiences. But since they are living in ignorance, they don't bother thinking and changing their thinking, therefore cannot alter their experiences.
However, one may one day suddenly wake up and realise living a life like that nolonger satisfy them and hense ignorance will nolonger be a bliss. They will then finally take responsiblility for their experiences and start living in awareness.
Therefore, the statement can be interpreted differently by different people depending on their level of awareness.

Good afternoon,

PROTEUS42 WRITES: I like your way of looking at the world. I have often had the experience you describe of "things working together to help" and although I do not believe in supernatural anthropomorphic powers, I think my and your experiences can't be put down as "illusions induced by intense wishful thinking".

RESP: I value and appreciate getting a response that does not attempt to “explain away” my statement.

I do love philosophy and history. Both tell me much about this world and the people in it. They both give me insight and pleasure while sharing with those dedicated and educated sufficiently to expound so much. This often amazes me. It seems every way I turn I am learning something. One of the benefits of keeping an open mind is getting a better view.

Methinks there is a tendency of many commentators aggressively seek validation of themselves more than for their ideas. But what better way than to find commonalities as well as disputes, both of which can be helpful to all concerned. I have yet to find anyone with whom I completely agree. Even philosophers can be wrong, and their commentators sometimes disagree as much as they agree, so although I enjoy discussing ideas, I am cautious.

Someone once said….”they made nonsense out of logic……..” and said, “The more they called themselves philosophers, the more stupid they grew….” and admonished thusly…….. “Make sure that no one traps you and deprives you of your freedom by some secondhand, empty, rational philosophy based on the principles of this world…….” Some English boys gave a different translation, which summarizes previous statements with, …..”Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.”

Another ‘well known’ said something like this: “There is nothing so ridiculous that some philosopher will not write about it.”

Not sure whether you care who made these statements, but just in case you do: Cicero (106-43 B.C) made the last statement, and Saul of Tarsus, later called Paul, made the previous ones. These are/were very learned men, who seemed to enjoy philosophy themselves, yet they apparently observed some real nonsense in those who made a game of it.

PROTEUS42 WRITES: As to ignorance, I think there are two related interpretations of the title of our thread. On the one hand, Ignorance Is Bliss means that not knowing about (sinister) possibilities frees the mind of useless worrying. Worrying over the future is the most common feeling whether we are conscious of its present or succeed in forgetting it for some time.


Interesting to read your comments. To me, the word ignorance simply means uninformed, and can apply to only one subject, or to many. I was ignorant of much that was going on in Afghanistan, before September eleventh, and am still, but not nearly so. I am ignorant of many facts about physics. Yet, I am not considered an ignorant person at all. (Or, none have said so!) I use the word ignorance literally as a void of knowledge, and call upon “stupid,” “obstinate,” and other choice words when I mean stupid, and obstinate and other things! Yet, I agree that many ignore any opportunity to learn more than they know. In fact, perhaps we all do. I have never put chains on a tire. Yep, I do avoid such things.

Thank you for your response. It is somewhat comforting to know that someone understands what I am saying, even though I do not depend upon it or necessarily expect it. I have had unexplainable experiences, -only a few, but very notable, and mostly I keep them to myself, because I do not look for signs and wonders. To me the “miracles” were already in place when I came into this world, and if can truly be called miracles, they are a part of what is. Cheers ‘n stuff. PMT

HEVENE WRITES:

Re: illusions induced by intense wishful thinking

“This might just happen. Let me explain (this is only my view). All thoughts are a form of energy and energy has the ability to turn into matter by slowly down. When you think (alot) of the similar thought, those energy has the opportunity to meet and slow down to create reality. However, the reality we are experiencing is all but an illusion. Therefore the statement can be true.”

Whereas I appreciate your thoughts on this matter, I disagree. (1) If thoughts on one scenario could actually bring something to pass, I would have noticed. (2) I am thinking that you may have missed my meaning. I will personalize what I intended to convey, as I can speak only for myself: After I moved to Texas with a dream of having more time to write, I found myself increasing engrossed in learning. I taught a few classes, and truly learned far more than the other attendants. Even though I have always had a student’s mind, now it was getting intense. Sometimes I would arise in the night time and create. I kept pen and pad by me almost all the time. Toward the end of my six years in Texas, (and I do not know any other way to put this), something wonderfully delightful came into my life. That wonderful thing was like a revelation. In any event, I made a decision to leave Texas. This was a very big deal. Suddenly doors opened, but that was not the most exciting part, what was so exciting was that wonderful day that I knew I had the freedom to leave. I owned a house; that was a problem. Houses in that area can sometimes take years to sell. I sold on contract, with no down, which gave me no money, and money was a big issue. I did not know how I would get my things transported in a way that I could afford. I had a car that needed to be with me. I had a pet that and children that loved me.

I was quite ill physically and showing few signs of improvement; therefore, a job would be hard to find, and a place would be even harder, without a job. All these factors should have scared me to death, but once I knew that I could leave, and that it would be okay, I never looked around and second-guessed. I still shake my head that it all came together. Yet, I am not saying that it was all easy. There was one big problem before it finalized, and I got myself in a tizzy, but even that worked out. The back of my very expensive computer chair was lost in transit, -by movers, (no insurance). The reason that worked out was because there was nothing to do but to accept that it was gone forever, and accept that I had no means to replace it, and accept that this was very annoying, but not worth any additional stress.

As for that wonderful thing that happened to me: I still listen to those musicians sing in their foreign tongue, and I still feel the peace of the simplicity, and continue to appreciate how it touched my soul, and brought to mind that I was not bound anywhere. Something spoke to me, as they performed and I pondered their relaxed way of delivering song and music, and it still speaks to me every time I hear it. Now, when they cut that disc, it was in their own country, and but for a friend who brought me to her state to help her write a book, (this was just before I got sick), I would have never heard it. Had she not given it to me after my first exposure to it, I would not have it. It took only about three times listening, before it dawned on me just what had made me want it so much. Even though I continued to be ill, the blessings continued as well. My doctor here is the greatest. My friends are the best. My children seem happy, and my dog and my car are fine too. I have a job, a place, and improved health, as I continue to hope for even better health. After two years of this, "improved" is good, and I am very grateful. Supposedly, this curse is permanent, but many have much worse, and I continue to be happy, and enthused about life, and take one day at a time. Nothing, -absolutely nothing- thrills me more than figuratively sitting at the feet of knowledge and wisdom, and learning. Sometimes, it has come in the form of nature, it has come from centuries past, and it has come through the speakers in my living room.

The latter was the second time in my life that something so far removed came like an unexpected torrential rain, washing away debris, and showing me a clean pathway. The other was an author of the seventeenth century, called Spinoza. Such things need not be explained. I think this: If there is an illusion, it is my illusion.

PMT

PMT
It is wonderful to see your describing your experiences, and many people had gone through similar things. One thing to keep in mind is that nothing happens by accident. The things you've experienced is happening perfectly to allow you to evolve. You may not realise why those things happen, because you may not always realise what your souls is looking for, but nevertheless, things happens perfectly.
The words you hear, I hear it too. I hear it everywhere I look when I'm willing to look, just like millions of other people.

Hevene writes:
"PMT It is wonderful to see your describing your experiences, and many people had gone through similar things. One thing to keep in mind is that nothing happens by accident. The things you've experienced is happening perfectly to allow you to evolve. You may not realise why those things happen, because you may not always realise what your souls is looking for, but nevertheless, things happens perfectly. The words you hear, I hear it too. I hear it everywhere I look when I'm willing to look, just like millions of other people."

It is nice that you liked my story; I told it only to make a point, and the point was not that my experiences are/were unique. Moreover, I heard no words, except in the music, but I could not understand them as they were in Finnish, and I doubt that you heard those; therefore, not sure what you meant by wriint: "The words you hear, I hear it too.".

ON ANOTHER SUBJECT...HEVENE, (01-29-04) "I was always a science person, until recently, from reading afew books. (Conversations with God, The New Revelations, by Neale Donald Walsch. They talked about science and how science and spirituality can co-exist and ET and all sorts of things.). ........And since many ideas often overlap no matter when those ideas were formed, I don't need to do extensive studies to access different ideas. I got most of them from those books and is currently satisfied by my new understandings. (only need to apply them in life now)"

This almost seems like a contradiction of what you said above, because we never know so much that we need not keep and open mind and a heart hungry for knowledge and wisdom.

Best regards, PMT

There are many stupid people that are full of knowledge. Knowledge is not intelligence. The biblical fall of mankind began with knowledge, and I tend to agree that knowledge has been responsible for every evil thing that exists. The earliest humans that walked the earth were ignorant of alot of things, but because of this, they lived in harmony with the natural world. Knowledge of your own future death, for example, might rob you of bliss.

"Not-knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease."
-Tao Te Ching

Some cagey ol' widom writer agreed, and they put his ideas into the mish-mash of sources that make up the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible:

"And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind.
Because in much wisdom there is much angst, and increasing knowledge results in increasing evil."

- Ecclesiastes 1:17-18

Spidergoat: and I tend to agree that knowledge has been responsible for every evil thing that exists.

Ridiculous. It would be just as easy to say that ignorance is, and has been, responsible.....

However, with the following, I agree. The wisest alway know that they know enought to know that they know nothing!


"Not-knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease."
-Tao Te Ching"

I find that folks as interested in communicating as they are in disputing, take things in context. Knowledge of how to blow up a city is not the same as knowledge that helps one live his life. I could speak ask why have schools, and I would sound like a fool. We do need to learn as it is only through learning that we understand that we do not know much, and this can save us from doing something stupid.

The bible also says that with knowledge comes sorrow, and this too is true, and yet any intelligent man would also understand that ignorance has caused sorrow as well. These two statements mean two different things. Therefore, abolutes are not available; are they? :rolleyes: PMT