If you could see heaven and it was all great and wonderful, would you still want to be here on earth?

Ben

Very very good and yet complicated question Kalvin. I guess it would be silly to say if we saw it and knew for sure it was wonderouse we would not "want" to be there.
However...I have always pondered the idea that so many "christians" say they wish the Lord would hurry and return, that they are "ready" to go home.
I have to wonder...If we are in fact here for a purpose...to learn, to help, to save others...then would we want to go Home knowing we had not done all that we could do. Would we not want to stay untill all hope was gone.
I often think of Abraham pleading for Sodom..."Lord if there are but ten people saveable..."
Would anyone who was sure of the "truth" of Gods existance and the plight of final judgement not also do the same?

Thats just a question I have meditated on many times in my life...and would be interested in hearing yours and other Christians views on the point.

Heaven does not exist, and so I would never see it.

There you go, the tony1 answer for athiests :)

I totally agree with Xelios.

How many christians here still believe in purgatory? Theres no such thing as heaven. The only reason christians invented heaven and hell was to persuade people into joining their religion. I dont even think your beloved jesus even believed that heaven existed.

Now I'm no athiest (Jewish), but heaven and hell is like santa claus and the tooth fairy. When you die you go back to God. Whatever that means for you, if you consider God your creator the it could be just the ground. But God is not evil. He cant do any harm to his creations, Why would he punish people. Don't people do things because its their own perception of wrong and right.

Some think murder is okay if you kill the right people. I'm not among this group but I got nothing against them as long as they dont murder me.

Most people on sciforums will probably agree with me. Heaven and hell do not exist. A hundred years ago that would be way different. How long will it take the rest of you to grow up?

I think it's time religion got with the times, so to speak. Our theories and understandings have been steadily evolving as we discover more about our world, however religion has not progressed at all, if anything it has travelled backwards.

What gives us any reason to think there is life after death? There is absolutly no proof or evidence to even suggest something like this. It would be far simpler to just accept death as the end, instead of clinging to the age old myth of an afterlife.

Elbaz and Xelios, would you like to try that one again? Pretend for a minute that heaven really exists and you can see it out your window. Would you still want to be here?

If you don't want to answer, then don't but don't distract the topic.

Ben

That's what talking to tony1 feels like.

Personally, I would find it a hard decision. I enjoy science, and trying to discover new truths about how the universe works. I couldn't imagine living in a world where we already know everything, it would be boring for me. On the other hand, you have a world where no evil exists, and everyone is happy all the time. I don't know, that would seem like a very boring existance to me, especially when you have to live it for all eternity.

living forever in a place where all is good. there is no action only enternal rejoysing. there is nothing unexplored and unknown.
nobody ever threatens you, no tension, no challenge
ahssssssssssssssssss
Sounds REALY boring to me. sorry Kalvin it is not for me.
I allready live in my heaven-our universe, milky way galaxy, solar system, thierd planet from the central star, the Earth, only it is slightly damaged by us, humans. We need to imprve our living conditions right here.

heaven and hell seems just a place invented by christians to convert and take control of people in larger quantities.
I fully agree with Xelious and Elbaz here.
Bye!

Avatar,

How about answering the question based on KalvinB's description of heaven?

This is how you describe heaven:

***living forever in a place where all is good. there is no action only enternal rejoysing. there is nothing unexplored and unknown.
nobody ever threatens you, no tension, no challenge
ahssssssssssssssssss***

And, based on your description of heaven, you conclude:

***Sounds REALY boring to me. sorry Kalvin it is not for me.***

That's fine if you feel that way about the heaven you describe, but that's not how KalvinB described heaven. KalvinB described it as "all great and wonderful" - so...

If you could see heaven and it was all great and wonderful, would you still want to be here on earth? Avatar?

KalvinB,


***If you could see heaven and it was all great and wonderful, would you still want to be here on earth?***

I'd want to be where it was all great and wonderful.

My Idea of heaven is nakey Blondes Redheads and brunettes...strutting around with grapes and massage oil...

If my version is correct ...suicides would be at an alltime high.

And noway in hell would I want to stay on earth.

cheers
RazZ:D

You see blonde_cupid. By christian ideology there is only one heaven and one hell. and what may seem wonderful for Kalvin may not fit me and vice versa.

And my answer to Kalvins question is YES.

if we persume I go to heaven after I die, then why hurry. There is a lot of fun and interesting things to do here on Earth.

but I do not beleive in heaven and hell.
maybe our consciousness isn't completely destroyed after we die, but no way we go to Christian heaven, that's for sure. and no hell too. There ain't any. it is stupid to think tht only christians enjoy their time after death and all the rest boil in lake of fire. A stupid christian concept to keep peasants at bay and control.
to think tht christians are the only ones to survive, pleeeeeeeeeez.
sorry, went a little off topic:)

I did give an answer in my own way. But KalvinB is right. He deserves a direct answer.

My direct answer is no way. By saying you'd rather be in heaven you only relegate what a looser attitude you have.

That was the ideology of the evolution of christianity back in the dark ages when a feudal system was in place. You see most people where peasants and one of the few reasons the feudal system worked is because christianitys 'heaven' made everybody feel important as if they had a role to fulfill.

These peasants had looser attitudes because they had little to no ambition and low self esteem. Ofcoarse they didnt want to go to hell for eternity so they all shutted up and did their job. Furthermore. Most people were illeterate back then so no matter how intelligent the people were, they would have little success in gaining any perspective at the whole heaven and hell suituation. Thats why its looser talk.

Anyways. I'd just like to point out that some religions do encourage advacement. Like shinto maybe and a few others. But from what I know, judaism is extremely supportive. All rabbis I've heard of support the genome and all these stem stell things. The bottom line is that in my religion we believe the purpose of humans is to get to a point where we can control all of our surroundings and become Godlike as we wanted for getting kicked out of the garden of eden. But that is a verrrrrrrryy long way off. (BTW I speak of the garden of eden in a symbolic way.)

Christianity cant see the whole truth though because it's in contradictions with their scriptures. People will come to realize though.............

Hey Elbaz, just noticed you were from Calgary. I live right in between Calgary and Edmonton, near Red Deer :)

"If you could see heaven and it was all great and wonderful, would you still want to be here on earth?"

You answered the question no way .
I think you meant YES ie. I would still want to be here on earth.:)
be careful when you speak, tony might think wrong about you;)

*Originally posted by Avatar
and no hell too. There ain't any.*

No graves?
It must really stink over there.

*it is stupid to think tht only christians enjoy their time after death and all the rest boil in lake of fire.*

Not boil, burn.

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
(Psalms 37:20, KJV).

*to think tht christians are the only ones to survive, *

Yes.

*Originally posted by Elbaz
Christianity cant see the whole truth though because it's in contradictions with their scriptures.*

You mean Catholics can't.
We can see just fine because Christianity agrees with the scriptures.

Tony I fully understand that Hell in the Biblical sense is the grave atleast to some and definatly in your understanding...we all know that. But for the sake of argument you know that most use the term to refer to the old fiery furnace where we burn and never die that the churches always teach so please address what you know they "are"71 talking about as to be more productive in your instruction. It might be more productive to continually assure them the cartoon furnace does not exist than to continually remind them we all die...since that is a given anyway. Im trying to be constructive with this idea not slam you in any way. :)

*Originally posted by Taken
Tony I fully understand that Hell in the Biblical sense is the grave atleast to some and definatly in your understanding...we all know that.*

You don't seem to be aware of the implications of that.

*But for the sake of argument you know that most use the term to refer to the old fiery furnace where we burn and never die*

Which is why I correct people.
Since there is no furnace where "we" burn and never die, I'm left with correcting people when they refer to that fictional concept.

*that the churches always teach so please address what you know they "are"71 talking about as to be more productive in your instruction.*

Churches do teach that, but since there is no such place that churches teach, correction needs to be made.
You, for example, have never studied the issue of hell, so you are pretty much making stuff up as you go.

*It might be more productive to continually assure them the cartoon furnace does not exist than to continually remind them we all die...since that is a given anyway.*

If it's such a given, then why do you believe that nobody will.
See where you said "burn and never die."

*Im trying to be constructive with this idea not slam you in any way.*

I get your intent, but you are seriously misguided.
I myself am trying to be constructive, but I doubt that you have done much besides think, "oh there he goes again" while rolling your eyes.

How about doing a bit of a study on hell, sheol, pit, grave, gehenna, hades and tartarus?

I really was TRYING to be constructive. You post from your full knowledge of what you believe and what you mean...people reading dont have what is in your mind...so it might be better to be elementary type clear.
I do Not believe there is a fiery furnace....just like heaven, untill i see it i can only assume what it is from what i have learned and read from credible sources like the Bible. I do think what harm we do in this life we will in fact answer for in some way after this earthly life. I also know that Jesus said not all souls will taste death. i seperate physical death from the spirit, I do not know ALL the details and legistics but I know enough to believe that I do not want to leave this world haveing done harm where I could have done good.

*Originally posted by Taken
I really was TRYING to be constructive.*

I get that.
However, if you are stuck in some thornbushes, there isn't much you can do to help.

*You post from your full knowledge of what you believe*

Obviously, although that brings up the question of what you post from.

*and what you mean...people reading dont have what is in your mind...so it might be better to be elementary type clear.*

"Elementary type clear," what's that?

*I do Not believe there is a fiery furnace....just like heaven, untill i see it i can only assume what it is from what i have learned and read from credible sources like the Bible.*

It's nice to see that refer to the Bible as a "credible source."
You wouldn't have to do so much "assuming" if you referred to the credible source once in a while.

*i seperate physical death from the spirit, I do not know ALL the details and legistics*

That's for sure.
But, do you know ANY?

For example, what is that garbage about separating "physical death" from the "spirit?"
What on earth would you, or could you, be talking about?

*but I know enough to believe that I do not want to leave this world haveing done harm where I could have done good. *

But how would you keep from doing harm if you don't know even the basics?
If you don't know the basics then everything you say could be harmful.

I testify that I do not have all the answers but I know Someone who does.
I realize that haveing my own personal experience to go on and my own thoughts and prejudices that I may be tainted when God has yet to reveal everything to me, my life is a growing process that will not end during this earthly life time.
So in what way does it harm anyone if I cause them to question their doubt and send them to the actuall source for answers as opposed to man and trying to discern between the 26 different translations of the english Bible.
The Bible is not a lot of good unless the one reading it is first in touch with and giving God the leaway to guide their learning. Correct?

I know it is my duty to share the gift of love, peace, and liberty I have recieved from God...and in order to share it I must show others the source.
What happens after this life, as for the intricate details, is not so much a concern when resting in the assurance that God is working toward my good...I have no worrys beyond knowing that. Once one no longer doubts God, His love, and His desire for our welfare, the little details of the result are of no ponderance, I just know it will be worth all the struggle...simply because He said so.

Hey xelios,

I remember asking you in another post but I think I forgot to check back if you answered.

Anyway, are you a flames fan or oilers fan? I'm a flames fan, hardcore. The alberta hockey revival's been awesome. But ofcoarse we all know the flames are better.

And the stamps whoop those pussie eskies too!(your a stamps fan right?)

Go stamps Go!

If you could see heaven and it was all great and wonderful, would you still want to be here on earth? I'm assuming that the topic post operates under the presupposition that the vision of heaven put before us is not an illusion cast by the Grand Deceiver?

Frankly, at that point, the qusetion becomes moot.

If we can be sure that the heaven we're seeing is actually heaven, then how do we know we're seeing it? Well, someone has to be showing it to us and explaining with certain credibility that this is what we're seeing. Who is that doing the explaining?

For instance, the Summerland: if I wanted to be as literal as the vague descriptions allow me, heaven is a Phish concert in July at the Gorge Amphitheatre--music, oblivious individual happiness, and communal joy. Well, the body weight in hashish is important, too, but it's a Phish concert, so I think that part's covered.

So someone needs to make it clear to you that this is not an illusion, is not a Phish concert, and so forth. Now, who is that person/entity? Is that entity--presumably not Satan--evidence of God?

And at that point, let me turn the question back to the topic poster: Standing in God's presence, will it really take the temptation of Heaven to incite compliance?

I mean, if communication with God isn't enough to convince me to kowtow and whimper for my soul, I guess we can always shoot for the appeal to greed.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Actually, I must be one of the only Canadians that doesn't follow hockey at all, and so I don't really have a preference, whoever wins I guess =P

As for football, yeah, Stamps would whoop Eskies anytime =)

your missing out man, hockey's the coolest game on earth.
Just go to a game once...you'll be hooked;)

trust me........

I've never really bothered to go to a game, but I know from experience that watching it on TV is one of the most boring activities known to man =P

I mean sure, you get a good fight every once in a while, but not enough to last an hour or so. I should go to a game some time though, at least for a chance to get out of the house =)