All of you would agree with me that we are "born" into religeons?
(You are a born Jew/Muslem/christian)

If I was a born Muslem my parrents/family would surely make me a Muslem...I would have no control over it - neither do christians, Jews, ect. We all are victims of the surroundings.

Now back to the point.

If I was a born Muslem and did everything by the book, I did others no harm, I did nothing wrong or "bad" and I was considerd a nice person to be around.

Would "God"(christian God) send me to "hell" for not being a christain? If this is true how can he/we claim that he is a God of mercy and forgiveness? I had nothing to do by becomming a Muslem, my surroundings made up my mind for me.

What gives him the right to birth people into religeons and then just dump em into his own private dungeon ran by satan?

If this is not true and he does accept me into his kingdom - why am I even posting this? From what I gather people say that only if you believe in God you will recieve the etarnal life. Why would a supperior being be so vain and STUPID?

I think that he only wants us to do the rite thing by not harming others and just being happy, ect.

(Ignore spelling and stuff - I am still a minor) :>

Snotty,

I have to agree with you on this. Vanity and stupidity are human traits - and surely not those of a Supreme Being.

I haven't seen the used-car salesman who could rival a born-again Christian when it comes to high-pressure sales tactics. The way I see it, if I am being pressured into making a quick decision about buying into anything, it's probably not a good thing.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

I believe that no one is forced into a religion. Sure, you are born into a religion, possible to convert. I understand that converting is hard and a difficult decision, but the choice is there.

I also believe that not just christians get into heaven. Anyone who follows gods rules and codes of conduct is "eligible." Plus, muslims worship the same god that christians and jews do. They just do it in a different way, as Mohammed said to do, not as Christ said to.

Corp.hudson,

I disagree with you. We are taught from the time we learn to speak (maybe ealier) what our parents belive to be the absolute truth. This is the foundation of our core beliefs. To most people just the thought of questioning thier core beliefs (there are plenty of examples on this board) scares them so bad it repulses them. So in essence they are forced into a given religion. Of course the are exceptions, I for one grew up in a catholic family but the family was screwed and had no time for religion.

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The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born


[This message has been edited by 666 (edited November 16, 1999).]

I grew up in church.. My grandfather was a
Baptist minister, whom I loved very much.
I was raised in a Lutheran church my whole youth and was FORCED to go. YET, I do not buy into the bible religion.
I think that our beliefs come straight from the heart..yes, parents can influence us ..but, it all boils down to what is inside of us.

"I know that I'm a prisoner to all my father held so dear, I know that I'm a hostage to all his hopes and fears..." -Mike Rutherford, The Living Years

For better or for worse, we are what our parents made us to be. We become this through life in spite of our best efforts. Our parents were, in turn, what their parents made them, and so on. We are raised in our religions because of the choices of the past generations.

At some point in my life, I abandoned scriptures and gospels and became an atheist. I haven't given any thought to how I would raise a child as an atheist. Would it be better to let them have their innocence and faith in a divine creator, even if I find the idea ludicrous (for my own reasons)? Or do I teach the child rationalization from an early age, and risk destroying the ability to dream and to see the magic in the world? Is there a comfortable middle road where the heart of a child is concerned? Or do I let them find their own way and hope that if they see what I have seen that it doesn't harden their souls and darken their hearts?

An atheist is an outcast, regardless of age. But if you're an atheist, how do you raise a child in keeping with your own beliefs without looking like you're raising the anti-christ?

Oxygen,
Tough question. No parent wants to see their child go through hard times.
Dare to be different..it's tough. I think
what is important is we feed children with love and good values.
What gets me is how christians imply that we should feel guilty for raising a child with different beliefs... I think there is something wrong with that.

Oxygen,

I think it's important that you're honest with your children more than anything. Kids quickly learn who lies to them and who tells them the truth. You can tell your kids that you don't personally believe in a Supreme being, although no one can really ever know for sure. Allow them to explore the Mystery themselves, and be there to guide them through it the best way that you can (and protect them from becoming involved in dangerous cults). Be open to discussion and allow them their own ideas without ridicule. What more can any parent do, athiest or not?

While we're on the topic of honesty with kids, I also don't like to see people lie to their children about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy. I know that's not a popular opinion, and I'm sorry, but I think that's the beginning of the end of trust between parents and kids. Unfortunately, my husband didn't agree, so I just kept mum on the subject with our kids while my husband told the Santa Claus lie. It wasn't long before our kids figured out who to go to when they wanted confirmation of the truth in any matter. I apologize for straying from the subject a bit, but I really think this is important. Although your children may forgive you for lying to them, the fact that you are willing to do so gets hardwired into their brains while they are in the most impressionable stage of their lives. That can't be a good thing.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

I have to disagree with some of the comments that were made regarding the influence that one's parents have on them. I know that when you are young, it is customary to assume that your parents know everything, and never make mistakes. That's just a function of being a naive child. But I honestly believe that there comes a time in everyone's life when they have to start questioning things for themselves. I think that one of the hardest things in life to realize is that your parents aren't perfect and they don't know everything. That's when you start blaming them for all your problems, right? But if you ever want to solve those problems, it's everyone's responsibility to take a good look at the world around them and decide for themselves. I for example was raised in a very racist family. It would have been very easy for me to just buy into the hype without questioning, but I sure am glad I didn't. My family is agnostic (except for Grandma and Grandpa). They could care less. Baby-boomers....they're too worried about their next vacation or new car or corporate ladder or their latest divorce to give a crap about whether there's a God or not. I was really angry with my parents when I realized that they were human. Caused me a lot of problems emotionally because they got divorced and remarried and divorced and remarried and.....it surprised and disappointed me and angered me to realize how weak they were. HA! THEN I TOOK A LOOK AT MYSELF! I realized that I had to forgive them in my heart, and so I did, and then I witnessed how powerful forgiveness is. Most powerful. Hmmm....got me thinkin' about Jesus of course, and the rest is history. Basically, I think it's pretty dumb to take anything for granted just because your parents say it's so, and ESPECIALLY regarding your faith. What could be more important than that? Should you really trust anyone else to make a decision like that for you? I don't think that's a good idea.

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God loves you and so do I!

Snotty:

Excellent ideas ....

Part of the conditions of my adoption were that my parents had to promise, on paper, that I would be given a "religious education".

Thus, I am a confirmed Lutheran, and feel no better for it. After trying a couple versions of Satanism, I left the whole Christ/Satan duality and the whole of Abramic traditions behind, except as academics demanded.

If I might throw in a couple of ideas:

* So a young man comes to your school/work; having been raised among despicable racists, he displays racist tendencies in his behavior. For a while, people put up with him because his thought processes show a glimmer of hope. But after seeing that his behavior will not change, that his perspective apparently cannot change, are you obliged to cross that gap? Or can you now go on to either ignore him or harrass his philosophy?

* Christians often assert that homosexuals deliberately and consciously choose to be as they are, thus forfeiting any civil rights pertaining to their behavior.

* My own brother is an anti-Communist who developed his philosophy during the Regan years. Despite all of his compassions, the one thing he cannot do is choose to go out of his way to perform a "random act of kindness". Such acts are far too pinko. His only study of communism seems based on university economics lectures where capitalism was the bible; most of his objections to the idea are rank-and-file.

So, is the young racist choosing, at 19--just leaving home, per se--to be racist? Do gay people "choose" their destiny? What happens when a predominant theory, like capitalism, gains acceptance among the masses for the lack of an alternative?

These all come back to the ramifications of the first question of the topic post. Are we born into a church? Sure. Can we learn other things? Theoretically, yes. Now ... when do we choose to be Christian or Muslim, or Buddhist, or anything that our parents were? At what point do we make the conscious choice?

In other words, would God care if you believed merely because you were too stupid to consider otherwise?

Snotty, if you'll allow me an ageism, as you've declared yourself a minor:

"Bravo. These are among the most important questions you will never resolve during your lifetime. Keep asking them, for Heaven's sake. Unless religion is merely a ticket to eternal reward, it seems the answers will escape us all."

Oh, and I also wanted to comment ... remember that most religious books have endured six or ten or twenty bad translations prior to the modern age. Hebrew, for instance, is a matricentric operation: all of those italic "he" occasions are arbitrary selection from a list of possible words. Thus, I would say God itself is not necessarily stupid and vain. But there's six billion of us running around the Earth trying to cram each other full of opinions and philosophy. I'd say it's us, the people, who are stupid and vain, and have, for the greater portion of our history, missed the point.

Sorry if this is all a little disjointed. I don't expect to make sense all the time.

thx,
Tiassa

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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

I must object to your assertion that christians often assert that gays choose to be as they are, and therefore forfeit their civil rights. I am christian, and although the thought of the act of homosexuality disgusts me, I do not hate or discriminate against homsexuals. I believe them entitled to the same rights I have. This is the majority opinion, I believe, among christians. Then, there is a small minority who believe that gays are not entitled to the benefits that heterosexual marriages are. This is by no means a representative of christianity, and pleanty of jews, hindus, atheists, wiccas, agnostics, etc. believe this too. It is not a christian belief, and is not defended by any true christian.

Lori-Yes, we do tend to grow away from the mold our parents created for us. Although we don't always turn out the way they want us to, we do, ulitmately, become what they make of us through their actions. They do, in a sense, make us, as they are the key factors in our lives during the formative years. The influence is astounding, whether in the positive or negative sense. As we grow, we build upon that foundation, but we don't necessarily follow the directions our parnets had intended. In turn, we become the foundation for the next generation. (Hopefully with the bugs worked out.)Which way the next generation decides to build will be determined by the tools we give them.

Well - I think that our parrents defnitly influence the way we think. That does not mean that they make us think the same way they think, but rather the way we will and "can" think...

They can "make" us think and do the opposite of what they are trying to make us think. eg. If you had alchoholic parrents you would either become a total looser yourself or you would be inspired not to become like them and create your own hangups wich would affect your life. You can become a complete succes or failure.

The choice is always yours but it can be infuenced by the way you are brought up.

Hear, hear, snotty!

I was raised very...loose is the best word I can think of. My dad was raised Baptist, my mother raised Catholic. We didn't attend any church, and my parents were very careful to always add the words "My belief is..." before talking about their religion(s) and morals. It gave me a chance to have a very open mind - I wasn't following my parents, and at the same time I didn't have to rebel and do the opposite either. I could make up my own mind.

I was given similar treatment for a lot of the 'big' things a teen comes to - drugs, sex, peer pressure... My parents philosophy was pretty much - if you're going to do it, do it at home. As a result, I had my parents present the first time I took a hallucinogen - they are veterans of the 60's, and I trusted them to help me if I needed it. They knew when I became sexually active - I was only 15, but they had enough faith in me to trust me to do what was right for me.

Plus, they made sure I understood that I would be the one to suffer from my mistakes. If I screwed up and got pregnant at 15 - whose life would I have ruined? Mine. If I fried my brain on drugs as a teen, whose life would I have ruined? Mine. I don't suggest this kind of upbringing for everyone, of course. But my parents saw me as being a pretty level-headed youngster, and allowed me to find my own route. I like to think they were right about me. Not that it was a bed of roses! My parents are pretty messed up people, they have their own problems and I was sort of forced to be self-reliant because they weren't always there for me. But I was able to see that they were human, too. I knew that very young - probably around 7 or 8 years old. I did blame them for my problems as a teen - but what teen doesn't!!?? Nowadays, I live 2 hours away, and they still call me when they have an argument because I'm "wise" (their word, not mine).