On the forums we are always trying to prove or disprove the existence of God, but what about the devil. Havent heard much on him lately, so here is a forum dedicated to the proving or disproving of the devil (or what ever u belive in). The floor is open and all yours. Have fun!
-gw-:m:

Who cares? If they are around I´ll meet them sooner or later...

I like your user title graywolf :D

Dreamwalker is a copy cat.. :D

No I am not, I have my title since the day before yesterday. :p

The devil is simply another god in Christian mythology. Both are only fictional concepts. It would be easier to prove the existence of Donald Duck who we can at least see and hear.

Kat

Sure.. and I'm Michael Jackson..

:eek:

Devil is getting beat up on the day set aside for discipline. That's all you need ta know bout that.

Devil is getting beat up on the day set aside for discipline. That's all you need ta know bout that.
so u belive in a devil?
p.s. i got the idea of the title from dreamwalker :D

so u belive in a devil?
p.s. i got the idea of the title from dreamwalker :D

I believe in the annihilation of the concept of evil. As for the devil, he too is a spirit. You can't see spirits Kat, just so you know. :)

SouthStar,

You can't see spirits Kat, just so you know. As is consistent with things that do not exist, right?

Kat

In that case we shouldn't believe there is a planet called Pluto.

//Resists urge to roll eyes. :)

SouthStar,

In that case we shouldn't believe there is a planet called Pluto.Pluto can be seen through a telescope.

Try again.

The correct argument is to state that just because we can't see something that doesn't mean that it does not exist.

And the answer to that is - then demonstrate some other mechanism where we can detect the existence of the devil or a spirit of any kind.

There are some 6 billion people on the planet and billions have already died, and presumably they all have/had spirits. So from that vast selection it should be very easy for you to prove that at least one of them exists, right? And then you can substantiate your claim.

Kat

SouthStar,

Pluto can be seen through a telescope.

Try again.

The correct argument is to state that just because we can't see something that doesn't mean that it does not exist.

The end justifies the means smartypants. After all, you still knew what I was trying to say.. :p


And the answer to that is - then show some other mechnaism where we can detect the existence of the devil.

Kat

The existence of temptation for one.

EDIT: I don't know what you mean by "mechanism" but then I've been known to see eye to eye with you on several occasions.. :)

SouthStar,

The end justifies the means smartypants. After all, you still knew what I was trying to say. Yes but you were still unable to produce an example of evidence. You made a bad choice and I wasn’t going to help you make that choice.
The existence of temptation for one.So if I am tempted to help someone who is calling for help when I wouldn’t usually then that is somehow evidence of the devil?

EDIT: I don't know what you mean by "mechanism" Anything that provides physical evidence of existence. For example we cannot see gravity but we can measure its effects very precisely.

The problem you would face in trying to show that a devil is responsible for so-called evil in the world is that psychology, genetics, environmental influences, indoctrination, and propaganda, etc., can also explain abnormal and deviant behaviors. All of which are credible and natural explanations. There is no reason to suppose there is or need be any supernatural influence.

Kat

You cannot see the wind, yet it exists. How do we know? Because you can see the effects of it. The same is true of God.

Yes I do believe in the existance of Satan. He is a fallen angel who wants to overthrow God, yet since God created him, God will defeat him and cast him into hell for all of eternity.

SouthStar,

And if you want to claim that people have spirits then try to explain what these spirits do that the brain can't, where they reside, and how they react with the physical world.

And of course any single or tiny scrap of credible evidence to indicate that a spirit could or does exist would be very helpful.

Kat

You can't see the wind, but you can detect it. You can measure it through various means. By what means does one detect the presence of the interloper?

Enigma,

You cannot see the wind, yet it exists. How do we know? Because you can see the effects of it. The same is true of God.Not quite. Show me an effect that you claim is caused by God that doesn’t have a more credible natural explanation?

Yes I do believe in the existance of Satan. He is a fallen angel who wants to overthrow God, yet since God created him, God will defeat him and cast him into hell for all of eternity. But that is just quoting Christian mythology. Neither that nor your belief provides any type of proof for a devil god.

Kat

I take believe of it because of my faith in God, not because I have proof.

You cannot see the wind, yet it exists. How do we know? Because you can see the effects of it. The same is true of God

Wind can be measured using certain scientific instruments, and is understood to such a high degree, (usually), that it can be forecast in advance. There is not one solitary piece of evidence to suggest the existence of any god. In reality, even bigfoot, even aliens, even mothmen, even el chupacabra, even the bloody loch ness monster have more evidence to suggest their existence.

You're hanging onto a fantasy because, like the rest of us, you're going to die one day. Yes, it sucks.

Yes I do believe in the existance of Satan. He is a fallen angel who wants to overthrow God, yet since God created him, God will defeat him and cast him into hell for all of eternity.

Just like a Superman comic. Seriously, it's so... lame.

The Bible mentions several days where God caused causes there to be "long days." day that lastet more than twenty four hours. These accounts have been confermed through chinease records. What else could explain this? I curious to know what you think.

SouthStar,

Yes but you were still unable to produce an example of evidence. You made a bad choice and I wasn’t going to help you make that choice.

I have no idea what you are talking about but here goes:

John 8
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

John 13
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

Considering out differences, I think this might very well apply to us:

2 Timothy 2
23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

I must gently instruct you, for you oppose me. :)


The problem you would face in trying to show that a devil is responsible for so-called evil in the world is that psychology, genetics, environmental influences, indoctrination, and propaganda, etc., can also explain abnormal and deviant behaviors. All of which are credible and natural explanations. There is no reason to suppose there is or need be any supernatural influence.

Kat

I am sure you have heard:

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.

Funny that the records are chinese and not an occidental source. Not many chinese christians. :p By the way, any links to these "confirmations"? Or did you take them on "faith"? There have also been various "confirmations" on the flood story. Unfortunately, it was far from universal and been disproven many times over the years.

John 13
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

Yet, without this betrayal, Jesus would not have been sacrificed for your sins. Christianity would not have become the force that it is today. How can you blame Satan for an act that was cold-bloodedly planned by God? It's obvious that God planned the whole thing and merely attempts to shift the blame. Perhaps to see who's astute enough to observe the contradiction? This is similar to the serpent being blamed for the fall of man from the garden of eden. It was god's plan all along that this should occur. The serpent was a mere patsy. And wasn't even identified as Satan in this act.

Here's a question. Who is Satan? He's the interloper in Job. The serpent in eden. I'm thinking there was a verse describing him as the morning star, but my memory is vague on this. The old testament doesn't have much to say on Satan. I think he becomes a far more prominent character in the new testament. Please, shed some light on this Southstar.


Edit: In fact, Satan's interest lay in diverting Christ from his course, hence the temptations in the desert. If anything, Judas should have been tempted by Satan to not betray Christ.

Jesus looks at Judas when he says that he will be betrayed. So, who's the interloper in this affair?

Enigma,

I take believe of it because of my faith in God, not because I have proof. Yes I understand, but the thread starter was asking for proofs.

Kat

Enigma,

The Bible mentions several days where God caused causes there to be "long days." day that lastet more than twenty four hours. These accounts have been confermed through chinease records. What else could explain this? I curious to know what you think. Wouldn't it be more rational to simply doubt the accuracy and validity of the Chinese records than to create a highly imaginative complex supernatural realm as an answer instead?

Kat

Its the personification of entropy, and God is the personification of novelty and order. People personify everything, pets, cars, boats, its a xenocentric point of view.

SouthStar,

And if you want to claim that people have spirits then try to explain what these spirits do that the brain can't, where they reside, and how they react with the physical world.

Why are you assigning physical properties to a spirit? :confused:

And of course any single or tiny scrap of credible evidence to indicate that a spirit could or does exist would be very helpful.

Kat

http://www.kingsingles.com/WhyChrist.htm

http://www.thechristadelphians.org/htm/bre/study/forum/forum_0053.htm

Read.

SouthStar,

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.Or because what is said is nonsense.

But you have misquoted the text. A better translation is – “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word”. RSV. The difference is subtle but important and critical. Not that I care much since it is only myth.

44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! OK, but what is your point? These are just extracts from Christian mythology and these quotes seem to have no bearing on proving whether a devil exists or not.

Considering out differences, I think this might very well apply to us:

2 Timothy 2
23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.Fortunately none of my arguments are foolish or stupid, so this doesn’t apply.

24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. This is useful but you need to learn first before you are able to teach.

25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, That’s just wishful thinking when your arguments are devoid of reason and logic of course.

26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.This is a standard Christian excuse for not being able to formulate a more cohesive and logical agument.

I must gently instruct you, for you oppose me.But is it likely to improve the quality of your attempts at logical thinking?

I am sure you have heard:

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.Of course but consider this –

The greatest trick and evil that Christianity has pulled is to convince billions of people that the final end to life “death” is really a magical gateway to a perfect paradise.

What greater evil could the devil devise than to convince so many people that death is to be desired? Perhaps God and Satan do really exist but you have got their roles entirely reversed.

What better disguise could the devil have devised if he was really God’s equal than to masquerade as God and fool gullible people like yourself. Perhaps the real good God has been knocked unconscious somewhere and you are being gently and easily led to your slaughter. You might prefer to think of the devil as stupid and that he will be ultimately be defeated, but what if that is also part of his current plan to prevent you seeing his current subterfuge, and he really is God’s equal and just as powerful?

Food for thought.
Kat

SouthStar,

Why are you assigning physical properties to a spirit?Because you are physical and if a spirit can react with you then there must be a physical interaction which can be detected.

When you have absorbed this we can proceed to the more complex and paradoxical issues that show the impossibility of spirits.

Kat

SouthStar,

Because you are physical and if a spirit can react with you then there must be a physical interaction which can be detected.

When you have absorbed this we can proceed to the more complex and paradoxical issues that show the impossibility of spirits.

Kat


For someone who doesn't believe in spirits, you sure do know a lot about what spirits can and can't do. :rolleyes:

SouthStar,

Or because what is said is nonsense.

Where are you quoting that from? I don't see it anywhere in this thread. :confused:

But you have misquoted the text. A better translation is – “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word”. RSV. The difference is subtle but important and critical. Not that I care much since it is only myth.

Ok then, you don't care since it is myth but you know which translation is better. :rolleyes:

OK, but what is your point? These are just extracts from Christian mythology and these quotes seem to have no bearing on proving whether a devil exists or not.

Boils down to the last quote I gave.

Fortunately none of my arguments are foolish or stupid, so this doesn’t apply.

I never said/implied that. If that is your conclusion from reading it then..

This is useful but you need to learn first before you are able to teach.

That’s just wishful thinking when your arguments are devoid of reason and logic of course.

This is a standard Christian excuse for not being able to formulate a more cohesive and logical agument.

But is it likely to improve the quality of your attempts at logical thinking?

What exactly are you trying to get at about the quote? That Satan is using all of this to fool people because he is actually equal to God? Ok...

The greatest trick and evil that Christianity has pulled is to convince billions of people that the final end to life “death” is really a magical gateway to a perfect paradise.

What greater evil could the devil devise than to convince so many people that death is to be desired? Perhaps God and Satan do really exist but you have got their roles entirely reversed.

You are starting to sound like MW.. :(

What better disguise could the devil have devised if he was really God’s equal than to masquerade as God and fool gullible people like yourself. Perhaps the real good God has been knocked unconscious somewhere and you are being gently and easily led to your slaughter. You might prefer to think of the devil as stupid and that he will be ultimately be defeated, but what if that is also part of his current plan to prevent you seeing his current subterfuge, and he really is God’s equal and just as powerful?

Food for thought.
Kat


So God, who created us, is getting a "kick" out of fooling gullible people. An eternal God, who knows past, present and future has been somehow rendered unconscious? The devil is God's equal but he hasn't changed the fact that he got kicked out of heaven and is going to get beaten in the end and the miracles of Christ, His resurrection and ascension? All to get a kick out of fooling people?

Do you realize how your argument sounds? I wouldn't want to use the phrase "baseless rubbish".

The devil has knocked God "unconscious"... //Chuckles to self

Actually, about a year ago, I had a great debate on this forum where I went in to my big analysis to show that jesus is actually the bad guy. I will try and remember all my points and present them to you for analysis.

A lot of it was about how jesus did everything that god didn't like. In the OT we see god showing his "dislike" of cripples/blind people and so on. He also states that he is the one who makes people blind etc. Then in the NT, jesus goes around touching these people that god said couldnt go near him, and curing blind people when god stated it was he who made them blind - whereas jesus and co claimed it was caused by the devil.

Anyway, I'll work on it once more and get back to you :)

SouthStar,

Because you are physical and if a spirit can react with you then there must be a physical interaction which can be detected.

When you have absorbed this we can proceed to the more complex and paradoxical issues that show the impossibility of spirits.

Kat

Limits:
The problem with one of the current 'theories of everthing' is that testing it requires an experiment which would use more energy than is contained in all the matter in the solar system - which means that for all practical purposes, it can't be tested. But if the theory predicts the behavior of perceived phenomena, then it's useful, right?. But is it scienctific? A theory that can't be tested - is it really a theory? But how can we KNOW its true? Faith? In Science? Faith in scepticism? I find that interesting...

And this theory postulates the existence of multiple dimensions which are beyond human perception and measurement. If the theory is correct, then at it's base is a requirement for the real, physical existence of spatial properties which cannot be tested for or measured. Hmmm! And if some phenomenon existed within these unobservable, unmeasurable domains, could we boldly say they don't exists? Perhaps for all practical purposes. But in truth, could we? There is no physical explanation or measurement that can detect the mediating force behind 'spooky action at a distance', but that doesn't stop quantum mechanics from being useful or valid. But by your argument, perhaps we should abandon QM?

Kat, You unmask your own irrationality by claiming that you can actually demonstrate the impossibility of something! There's a logical fallacy in that claim. Now, when you have absorbed this, we can proceed to the more complex and paradoxical issues of improbablilty vs impossibility, the limitation of self-referential statements in symbolic lanquages, Epistemology, Meaning, Knowing, the limitations inherent in axiomatic systems, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Really, Kat. How do you manage to be so sure of yourself? You sound like one of us demented xians. :rolleyes:

SouthStar,

From your first link -

What proof is there of God –

1) Natural Evidence. Nature itself is one big sign. Scientist believe that all life evolved over a long time, but they can't find any missing links to show how one form of life turned into another.This is Argumentum ad ignorantiam. It argues that because we haven’t entirely explained how evolution occurred then God must have done it. This isn’t a proof for God merely imaginative speculation.

2) The Jewish Nation. The Jewish people are another great evidence of God. The whole Old Testament is a history and prophecy about them. The trouble with prophecies that are made public is that there is a real danger that they can become self-fulfilled. For example the Jews are currently using these old alleged prophecies as justification that they can hold onto the lands around Israel and legitimately subjugate and evict the Palestinians. How can one tell the difference between a prophecy and a set of rules which are to be followed? But peoples being spread around the world could also apply to the Irish, the Vikings, and the Spanish. But proof that there is a God based on this? Had the alleged prophecies stated specific dates and times then maybe, but given a set of vague probabilities over a long enough period of time then it could apply to almost any culture on the planet.

3) Evidence of Spirits. There is evidence of spirits, good and bad if you look for it. Stories of paranormal phenomena, haunted houses, fortune tellers, séances to wake the dead, witchcraft, angelic visitors, spiritual healers, demon possession and exorcism. So if you look (even on the web) you will find a lot of evidence that spirits exist. And none of these stories result in any proof that spirits exist only that there are some unexplained phenomena. This is Argumentum ad ignorantiam again.

4) Time and Date. The whole calendar system is based on years since Jesus Christ was on earth. The expression A.D. refers to the latin expression Anno Domino which means, the year of our Lord (the Lord must have been there). Before that years are recorded as B.C. (Before Christ). Something significant must have happened back then because almost the whole earth uses that dating system, counting backwards and forward from the time of Christ.This a proof for the existence of God? This is a joke. The origin of AD and BC refers to Caesar. BC (Before Caesar) and AD (ANNO DOMINI) is the Roman expression for: The year of the dominium of the Lord. This is to say that the "Lord" as a title was given to the highest office of the Roman Empire. At that time this was Julius Caesar and it related to any year he was in office.

The Christians simply stole the notation when it became the official religion of Rome and at that time Rome was the dominant world influence. The world population was also only 150 million and as that grew then obviously the date simply went with it. But Jews still have a Jewish calendar where the year 2000CE is 5760, to Arabs that year would be 1420, and for the Chinese that year would be 4698, none of which have anything to do with a mythological Christ.

5) Faith. Now all the above is logical and circumstantial evidence of a God, but that is all. This is because men are saved by faith in Jesus and not because it has been proved to them. But faith simply means believing something is true without proof. There is nothing magical about holding such an irrational position. But this also emphasizes that there is no proof for god since faith would never be needed if proof were available. Christians can only use faith and are forced to emphasize faith since there is no proof for their god.

Kat

I was only referring to the part about spirits since that is what we were discussing.
It is one of the possibilities I found and I was only sharing.


I am very very sorry (truly I am), I ignored the rest of it and failed to read it all.

Truly sorry.

Turduckin,

Really, Kat. How do you manage to be so sure of yourself? You sound like one of us demented xians. Holy cow I must be more careful what I say then.

But all of what you say still comes down to "we don't know". So all you have to support the concept of a spirit is an imaginative speculative fantasy.

But as far as SouthStar and his currently simplistic and conventional view of spirits are concerned we have the paradox of something immaterial having to interact with something material. How does that occur?

But you can become as complex as you wish and introduce multiple dimensions etc, but all of that is unnecessarily complex and only needed to try to satisfy another fantasy that there is an afterlife.

At this time there is no reason to assume that the brain cannot account for all emotions, memories and mental activities. What then is the role of a spirit apart from satisfying a basless fantasy?

Kat

SouthStar,

So God, who created us, is getting a "kick" out of fooling gullible people. An eternal God, who knows past, present and future has been somehow rendered unconscious? The devil is God's equal but he hasn't changed the fact that he got kicked out of heaven and is going to get beaten in the end and the miracles of Christ, His resurrection and ascension? All to get a kick out of fooling people?Hmm, you seem to have a problem seeing alternative perspectives, other people’s points of view, and understanding hypothetical scenarios. I apologize if I lost you since you do not appear to have grasped the point again.

Kat

But as far as SouthStar and his currently simplistic and conventional view of spirits are concerned we have the paradox of something immaterial having to interact with something material. How does that occur?

Simple. It is something supernatural that we cannot explain. Which just proves that humans don't know everything.

SouthStar,

Hmm, you seem to have a problem seeing alternative perspectives, other people’s points of view, and understanding hypothetical scenarios. I apologize if I lost you since you do not appear to have grasped the point again.

Kat

Again, this is coming from someone who refuses to see the truth of Christianity? Telling me what I am incapable of? :rolleyes:

SouthStar,

I was only referring to the part about spirits since that is what we were discussing.
It is one of the possibilities I found and I was only sharing.

I am very very sorry (truly I am), I ignored the rest of it and failed to read it all.

Truly sorry. Are you addressing me? I’m not quite sure where/what your apology is targeted.

But whatever, no problem.

Confused!!
Kat

It's for the first link you were talking about. :(

SouthStar,

Again, this is coming from someone who refuses to see the truth of Christianity? No one has demonstrated that there is any truth in Christianity. For that one must have some proof and has been shown already you don't have any that's why you have to rest on irrational blind faith.

Telling me what I am incapable of? It is apparent from your posts regardless of what I say. Just learn from it and move on.

Kat

SouthStar,

It's for the first link you were talking about. Oh OK.

Yeah I suspect you could do a lot better than that kiddo.

Kat

Irrational?

Have you missed all the information I hand typed about the transformation of the disciples and the historicity of the New Testament?

//CRAP! I knew I should have done a copy and paste and saved my energy.. :(

SouthStar,

Oh OK.

Yeah I suspect you could do a lot better than that kiddo.

Kat

Who're you calling kiddo, kiddo! :p

Enigma,

Simple. It is something supernatural that we cannot explain.Not quite. There is nothing to explain. The spirit concept is of your own making. If you take the spirit concept out of the equation then everything still works just fine. It is a redundant idea and has no value.

Which just proves that humans don't know everything.Or more accurately it shows that humans have fertile, active and often irrational imaginations.

Kat

SouthStar,

Irrational?

Have you missed all the information I hand typed about the transformation of the disciples and the historicity of the New Testament?Sure I saw all that. Did you see my link that shows that they are all likely mythological figures anyway, and that no one really knows how they died?

Or have you posted something more since in the other thread?

Kat

Please post the link again. I go through a lotta stuff so I might have missed it.

- Defender of the Faith

(how d'you like me new moniker) :)

Turduckin,

Holy cow I must be more careful what I say then.
That would be nice, but I won't hold my breath ;)

But all of what you say still comes down to "we don't know". So all you have to support the concept of a spirit is an imaginative speculative fantasy.
There is a difference between what we don't know and what can't be known. You can be fairly certain that the concept of spirit is imaginative. You can argue that it is speculative. But you can't 'know' it's fantasy. If you claim it is fantasy, are you prepared to argue that all concept is fantasy? In that case, the concept of a hypercube is also fantasy. Paradoxically, it's also the consequence of a rationalistic and rigorous view of world. On what grounds do you dismiss one concept and not the other? Rigor? Objectivety? I propose it is simply this: You cannot accept the idea that there are things that cannot be known, and yet simply are. It's an affront to something inside you. Somehow, everything must have an explanation or it can't be real.

But as far as SouthStar and his currently simplistic and conventional view of spirits are concerned we have the paradox of something immaterial having to interact with something material. How does that occur?
I don't know - however, this is why I mentioned spooky action at a distance. How can anyone make sense of the fact that one particle 'magically' transforms at the same instant that it's sister particle is observed, regardless of the distance between the two. (...unless the particles aren't separate at all, but are instead adjacent to each other at the next higher domain, and their appearance of moving away from each other at the speed of light is the real fantasy - but you see, that idea itself requires imaginative, speculative fantasy.) As far as SouthStar's simplistic and conventional view, it's inherent reasonable-ness is mirrored by a principle in chaos theory - namely that a simple model can be used to accurately represent complex behavior.

But you can become as complex as you wish and introduce multiple dimensions etc, but all of that is unnecessarily complex and only needed to try to satisfy another fantasy that there is an afterlife.

Those who live by Occam's razor, die by Occam's razor. I'm not the one introducing these complexities. Physicists at Princeton and elsewhere are, in an attempt to explain what they observe and experience. I'm simply trying to help you understand that you are in fact viewing the world in exactly the same simplistic, fantastical way that you accuse SouthStar of doing. You just don't seem to realize it, and you make the mistake over and over again. You can become as vehement as you like with your words, but you can never prove there isn't an afterlife. It is your statement of faith that there isn't one, and that makes you as 'irrational' as you accuse SouthStar of being.

At this time there is no reason to assume that the brain cannot account for all emotions, memories and mental activities. What then is the role of a spirit apart from satisfying a basless fantasy?

The so-called fantasy isn't baseless, it's basis just doesn't seem to be within your grasp. I would try to answer your question about the role of spirit if I thought you were actually interested. But at this time, "the brain" cannot account for all I have experienced in my life. And since you don't share my experiences, you would simply chalk up anything I had to say as fantasy. I pray and my prayers are answered. I don't have to explain how it happens - but you do.

What greater evil could the devil devise than to convince so many people that death is to be desired?

.. *grins*..

- N

But faith simply means believing something is true without proof. There is nothing magical about holding such an irrational position. But this also emphasizes that there is no proof for god since faith would never be needed if proof were available. Christians can only use faith and are forced to emphasize faith since there is no proof for their god.

How is it that you believe man can have trust in faith, even faith in faith? Aren't you better off to believe faith is nonexistent? But how then would you say you believe?

The "mechanism" being evident:

Romans 1
God's Wrath Against Mankind

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them
Then he should have the good fucking grace to make it plain to the rest of us.
Dee Cee

Turduckin,

There is a difference between what we don't know and what can't be known.And the end result remains unknown.

You can be fairly certain that the concept of spirit is imaginative. You can argue that it is speculative. But you can't 'know' it's fantasy. From Webster – Fantasy: 2 : FANCY; especially : the free play of creative imagination.

Also from Webster – Concept: 2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances.

The differences are subtle and perhaps just a matter of degree. But “spirit” does not derive from particular instances so it would be more accurate to call it a fantasy.

You cannot accept the idea that there are things that cannot be known, and yet simply are. You present a paradox – if somethings are unknown then you cannot state that they “are”.

It's an affront to something inside you. Somehow, everything must have an explanation or it can't be real.You appear to have our roles reversed. Surely it is the religionist who insists on explanations and invents fantasies such as gods and spirits to explain the unknown rather than simply accept that there are things we do not know.

As far as SouthStar's simplistic and conventional view, it's inherent reasonable-ness is mirrored by a principle in chaos theory - namely that a simple model can be used to accurately represent complex behavior.But it isn’t a simple model merely a simplistic view. For a spirit to exist means an entire supernatural realm must come into existence – that is hardly a simple model. And I see no inherent reasonableness in the spirit concept. It simply exists to satisfy false promises of an afterlife common to essentially all religions.

I'm simply trying to help you understand that you are in fact viewing the world in exactly the same simplistic, fantastical way that you accuse SouthStar of doing. You just don't seem to realize it, and you make the mistake over and over again.No not at all, I’m just not prepared to accept fanciful speculations as if they are true now, i.e. gods and spirits. That there are doubtless features of the universe that we do not understand is something I’m quite content to accept.

You can become as vehement as you like with your words, but you can never prove there isn't an afterlife. I have never stated that there is no afterlife merely that the concept is a fantasy. Please prove there is an afterlife and prove it isn’t a fantasy if you believe I am wrong.

It is your statement of faith that there isn't one, and that makes you as 'irrational' as you accuse SouthStar of being.As I said I have never claimed that spirits, gods or an afterlife do not exist merely that they are fantasy concepts. If you believe they are real then demonstrate their existence.

The so-called fantasy isn't baseless; its basis just doesn't seem to be within your grasp.It remains baseless unless you have clear and credible evidence that spirits exist – do you have any such evidence?

I would try to answer your question about the role of spirit if I thought you were actually interested.I cannot see that you could have anything other than imaginative fiction and I suspect you know that.

But at this time, "the brain" cannot account for all I have experienced in my life. Given that we are still studying the brain your conclusion seems very premature and somewhat irrational to prefer a fanciful supernatural concept above the more likely natural explanation.

And since you don't share my experiences, you would simply chalk up anything I had to say as fantasy. Certainly if you could not definitely show that your brain could not account for the phenomena.

I pray and my prayers are answered. I don't have to explain how it happens - but you do.I doubt that the issues are that clear cut and there are many psychological factors we would have to consider.

Kat

It seems to me, that for you to believe something exisits, Kat, you must have proof beyond any doubt that it is there for you to see, to experience. The fact is, you can't prove anything. "The only thing I know is that I know nothing at all." -Socrates There is no way to prove to me that I am sitting at a computer typing now, for all you know I could be plugged into the Matrix. So since you can't prove that anything exists (and you can't, so don't tell me you can) then why do you see such a problem with believing something exists such as God or the Devil. You don't have absolute proof that cats exist, you don't have absolute proof God exists, so please, tell me the difference.

Then he should have the good fucking grace to make it plain to the rest of us.
Dee Cee

Read the rest of it:

"his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,"

It seems to me, that for you to believe something exisits, Kat, you must have proof beyond any doubt that it is there for you to see, to experience. The fact is, you can't prove anything. "The only thing I know is that I know nothing at all." -Socrates There is no way to prove to me that I am sitting at a computer typing now, for all you know I could be plugged into the Matrix. So since you can't prove that anything exists (and you can't, so don't tell me you can) then why do you see such a problem with believing something exists such as God or the Devil. You don't have absolute proof that cats exist, you don't have absolute proof God exists, so please, tell me the difference.

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but I'm gonna respond anyway.

DJ Erock, you are way way off track. The difference that you've asked for, is that "real" things are openly testable. If someone claims that cats exist, you can test his claims. You can go take a look in a pet shop, or go round to the guys house and see his pet cats and so on. Reality does not need to be taken on 'faith' simply because it is observable and testable. I have a pet cat right here and I can present it for anyone who feels it cannot be proven.

Of course.. you could be "plugged in to the matrix", but that, like god and the devil, also lacks any instance of credible evidence- and no, a film with keanu reeves does not count as evidence.

If a claim is going to be made it has to be supported with evidence of such. If I stated that theres a giant pink orang utan floating above my house, you cannot disprove that claim, (unless you come here and don't see it - but then I'm sure I could think up an excuse), but you would agree that you would not take my claim seriously, and the same must apply to everyone elses claims that are completely unsupportable.

If something cannot be observed in any manner, or tested in any manner then it is classifiable as non-existant, and will remain so until such time that the above criteria have been met.

I agree with you here Snakelord, in that you can go and test and observe physical things, and know they are real, they exist; but it seems to me that Kat will not accept anything that she does not have absolute, no questions asked proof for. She seems to believe that there must be natural, completely explained scientific evidence for anything she can believe in. My point is that you cannot have proof of anything, you cannot know anything without a doubt. Simply because you can see one thing and not another doesn't prove that one exists more than another. I may be taking the role of a hopeless skeptic, but thats the only way to rationally look at things. You cannot, CANNOT prove that anything is what it seems, so what is the big difference between believing that your cat is sitting in your lap, and believing that there is a God that created you?

Katazia, What is the purpose of life. If we were just some cosmic freak of nature, then why do we have morals, why do we bother living, there isn't really a point to it is there? We are just the product of thousand of accidental mutations.

DJ Erock,

It seems to me, that for you to believe something exisits, Kat, you must have proof beyond any doubt that it is there for you to see, to experience.Then your perspective is incorrect. What I usually suggest is that we need credible evidence; it is rare that I suggest/request a proof, and then I have never suggested an absolute proof or one that is beyond doubt, whatever that means.

The fact is, you can't prove anything.This largely depends on what you mean by ‘proof’. Mathematicians certainly have proofs, and in logic we can achieve proofs, but a proof in science generally has different connotations. But if you are talking about absolute proofs then you are close since the only way we can achieve those is when we know absolutely everything.

There is no way to prove to me that I am sitting at a computer typing now, for all you know I could be plugged into the Matrix. OK but why would I care?

So since you can't prove that anything exists (and you can't, so don't tell me you can).Interesting statement. Apart from the rather obvious closed mindedness you seem to have created a conundrum for yourself. On the one hand you state that nothing can be proved yet here you are trying to state an absolute proof that nothing can be proved. So if your statement is true then that proves that it is false. Quite obviously your claim is false.

But let’s return to scientific “proof” for a moment. Try this link -
http://www.carlton.paschools.pa.sk.ca/chemical/Proof/default.htm

Please also note that - In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. ~Stephen J. Gould

..then why do you see such a problem with believing something exists such as God or the Devil. Because there is no credible evidence that would meet any, logical, scientific or even legal requirements to warrant any meaningful conclusion. The ideas are childish fantasies and should not be taken seriously.

You don't have absolute proof that cats exist, you don't have absolute proof God exists, so please, tell me the difference. So stop expecting absolute proofs, I don’t.

Kat

You cannot, CANNOT prove that anything is what it seems, so what is the big difference between believing that your cat is sitting in your lap, and believing that there is a God that created you?

Careful of double negatives.. ;)

Enigma,

Katazia, What is the purpose of life. Why must there be a purpose to life?

If we were just some cosmic freak of nature, then why do we have morals,Because if we didn’t we would likely have killed each other and we would now be extinct. Even wild dogs form communities and share the burden of nurturing their young, and hunt in packs for mutual benefit, etc. These are evolutionary characteristics that have increased the survival chances of the species and in that regard no different to humans.

why do we bother living, there isn't really a point to it is there?The alternative is oblivion and that is infinitely less attractive. Certainly if you are incapable of generating your own purpose then indeed your life is worthless.

We are just the product of thousand of accidental mutations. Does it matter how we arrived? Isn’t it more valuable to cherish the fact that we do exist and enjoy the moment?

Kat

Why must there be a purpose to life?

Because otherwise we should all go out and commit suicide.

Certainly if you are incapable of generating your own purpose then indeed your life is worthless.

My purpose in life is my relationship with with God. I was just wondering about the purpose of those that don't believe in a higher being.

Does it matter how we arrived?

I guess it just seems to me that life seems to be an accident, we're just some cosmic mistake. How special. :rolleyes:

Because otherwise we should all go out and commit suicide.

My purpose in life is my relationship with with God. I was just wondering about the purpose of those that don't believe in a higher being.

I guess it just seems to me that life seems to be an accident, we're just some cosmic mistake. How special. :rolleyes:


I can give you my purpose of life, it is like: Doing what you want to do. Or another possibility: Having fun while you can. And I really don´t think that life has a real purpose. We are just here to continue our race and the rest? Whatever you want.

Because otherwise we should all go out and commit suicide.

But then by the same token, a non-believer could say the same to a believer. You all seem so eager to get to your next life of absolute harmony and love, that there seems to be little to no point in hanging around in this one. I guess all that stops you is that suicide is classed a sin, no?

I mean really.. what more joy could come of your life other than your death where you get to meet up with he whom you worship?

Whereas we can say the purpose for your existence is to die and go to heaven, our purpose is to survive - nothing more.

My purpose in life is my relationship with with God. I was just wondering about the purpose of those that don't believe in a higher being.

My purpose in life is my relationship with my daughter who is quite real and observable, doesn't ask me to love her - but has earnt it with everything she does or says, doesn't ask for sacrifice- but I am more than willing to give it for her. Does not need to ask me to worship her - but I do anyway.. etc etc etc. She is above and beyond what god could even wish to be. Everything god needs to ask for but is often denied, my daughter doesn't need to ask for, but always receives.

I guess it just seems to me that life seems to be an accident, we're just some cosmic mistake. How special.

For what reason must you be 'special'? However, the accidents that have occured have bought my daughter into existence, who is extremely special to me - just like you are special to someone, etc etc. We do not require sky beings in order to be special - just other human beings.

But then by the same token, a non-believer could say the same to a believer. You all seem so eager to get to your next life of absolute harmony and love, that there seems to be little to no point in hanging around in this one. I guess all that stops you is that suicide is classed a sin, no?

not really becuse I believe that I was put here for a purpose. Because of heaven, there is no reason to fear death.

My purpose in life is my relationship with my daughter who is quite real and observable, doesn't ask me to love her

May I ask why you desiced to have a kid? What did you do when you were out of your parent's house, but not commited to another person?

Enigma,


Why must there be a purpose to life?

Because otherwise we should all go out and commit suicide.Why the heck would you want to do that? Life is incredibly precious since we are only here for a few short decades, so why not make the most of it? Are you so lacking in imagination and creativity that you cannot devise something useful to do? The universe is vast and largely unexplored, so surely there is something in it that you can attach to as a genuine interest that makes your life feel worthwhile and enjoyable.

If you are altruistic then go and help others in need, if you are an artist go and paint something, if you like to read then go read something, whatever, but there is no excuse to feel so depressed that suicide seems like a good idea. I am afraid that is beyond my comprehension.

My purpose in life is my relationship with with God. Ok, whatever turns you on. Many people have quite bizarre delusions and lead very happy lives.

I guess it just seems to me that life seems to be an accident, we're just some cosmic mistake. How special. Isn’t a need to feel special a sign of psychotic insecurity? And given the massive size of the universe compared to our insignificant presence I would see it extremely arrogant for us to ever consider that we could ever be special.

Kat

Special wasn't the right word. I just ment to say that it seems as though there is no point to life. The way I see it, you're born, you live you die, the world forgets about you, that is if it ever reconized you in the first place.

Enigma,

I believe that I was put here for a purpose. And what is that purpose?

Because of heaven, there is no reason to fear death. And if you reached heaven, then what? What purpose would you have then?

Let’s say the second coming arrives and judgment day and God sends his selected victims to hell and the rest go to a heavenly paradise for eternity. What then is your purpose? You will likely be one of billions, right? With eternity in front of you. Will you expect to ever be unhappy, miserable, depressed, in pain? I suspect not. So your real hope is that you will be happy, content, loved, in constant bliss, right?

That will be nice but what purpose would you have with this eternal life? Everything will be perfect and everything provided, there are no worries since you know that God is ever present and caring for everyone.

It seems to me that your life in heaven will be as purposeless as you think it is now on earth. Reaching heaven will not solve your problem of desiring a purpose.

But if your true purpose is simply to be happy then why not try to achieve that here on Earth?

Kat

Enigma,

I just ment to say that it seems as though there is no point to life. The way I see it, you're born, you live you die, the world forgets about you, that is if it ever reconized you in the first place. Bingo. Welcome to reality. Get used to it and deal with it, since there is nothing else apart from fantasies and dreams.

Kat

what makes you happy?

not really becuse I believe that I was put here for a purpose. Because of heaven, there is no reason to fear death.

Can I ask what reason you were put here for?

May I ask why you desiced to have a kid?

Well it's a whole bunch of things..

Firstly I woke up one day feeling a bit strange. After a brief time I noticed that I was going through puberty. My testicles dropped etc etc, and I found that when faced with a good looking woman, I'd get stiff. It wasn't a choice to get stiff, but seemingly a natural course of events that I could not control.

Then I found myself drawn to getting women naked and sticking this thing in them.

I then read the bible... specifically the part about that dude being slaughtered by god because he spilled his semen on the floor, so I had no choice but to let it go inside this woman. Then whattya know.. by some miracle she got rather fat and plopped out a child.

(Btw I'm actually just messing with you). :D

What I'm getting at, is that it's a natural course of events for pretty much every single animal on the planet. Sure, there are some that impregnate themselves, and in one instance, (the seahorse), it's actually the male that gives birth - but in general it is natural to every single animal.

I saw it recently with my dog. I take him to the park every day and he'll run around and play with other dogs, then the other day for no reason whatsoever, this pink thing popped out- he jumped on a female dog and started pumping.

Simply put, it is nature. It is not divine intervention or anything remotely mystical, but just nature.

We could say we're slightly more evolved than the majority of animals - and actually have sex because we enjoy it, as opposed to merely being to reproduce - but from the biblical texts we can see that god didn't want us any different to the animals - but wanted to keep the act of sex as merely the method of reproduction. So much so, that actual human emotions and feelings were not even taken into consideration. If my brother died, the very last thing on my mind would be to impregnate his widow, and I'm sure it would be the last thing on her mind aswell.. but that's what god demanded. From start to finish, it seems god wanted us to remain as simple animals.

Now I will admit that it was more than just that, and while it's a lengthy story- I shall try to minimize it.

I was adopted. Didn't have any idea who my parents were for the first 26 years of my life. It's weird, but I never knew what love was - as a side effect to that. I always swore to myself that I would have a child and show it the love I could not comprehend.

My wife is also adopted, so we're two of a kind pretty much.

We had a son but unfortunately he died.. So on top of needing to show extreme love, I now needed to show even more love because life really is that fragile.

Now we have a daughter, and not once in her life has she ever been shouted at, ever been reprimanded or treated like most parents treat their children these days. We do not "boss" her, but treat her with all the respect that any human can deserve.

Some people who have never experienced it from this point of view say that the child will be snobby, or selfish, or undisciplined but it is complete garbage. What we have 'created' is quite simple the most amazing and fantastic child there is. She is exceptionally polite, exceptionally loving to a degree of insanity. You know, I scratched my hand very slightly the other day, and she rushed over, took my hand- kissed it better and rubbed it. She is the same with everyone she knows, including our pets. She has also never, not once ever, been 'bad'. I know it's hard to comprehend or believe, but not once has she ever done or said anything that was rude or wrong.

All we ever did was show her love, nothing more- nothing less, and she has turned out to be the most supreme of children.

As I said on my last post, she would never have to ask for anything from us, but we would give it to her even if it killed us. Respect, love, worship, or sacrifice.. god could only wish it was like that for him.

What did you do when you were out of your parent's house, but not commited to another person?

Well for a lot of my younger teen years, I was a serious alcoholic. I had real issues, (because of being adopted), and the drink was a temporary solution to the questions I needed answers for. When I wasn't drinking, I was writing. Poems, stories, articles, etc. Writing is a real passion for me, it always has been ever since I could crawl.

Enigma,

what makes you happy? Being alive.

Kat

Oh, so you're looking for evidence but not moving towards proving something....

Police look for evidence to prove a criminal guilty
Scientists test for evidence to prove a theory
We're looking for evidence to prove there is a God

"On the one hand you state that nothing can be proved yet here you are trying to state an absolute proof that nothing can be proved"
I agree, this is infact one of the oldest philosophical paradoxes there is. However, the fact that it is paradoxical to claim truth in the idea that there is no truth does not prove that everything you see and feel is really there.

So stop getting hung up in the language, and tell me why things you can observe with your senses merit any more faith than things that you can't. I don't want you to tell me again that my beliefs are fantasy, I don't want you to nitpick through what I've posted and find some loophole in each sentence, I want an answer to the idea, not the words.

I know you won't come up with one, and I know you won't change your opinions, but at least consider that there may be something out there beyond your comprehension

P.S.
Southstar- That was emphasis, not double negative

DJ,

…tell me why things you can observe with your senses merit any more faith than things that you can't. Things that you can detect indicate a high probability that they are real. If something proposed cannot be detected then there is no reason to conclude that it is real. Faith does not play any useful role in this.

I know you won't come up with one, and I know you won't change your opinions, but at least consider that there may be something out there beyond your comprehension. I’m not really sure what you are asking. I’m certainly quite capable of imagining many things beyond my comprehension and I have no end of speculations about many futuristic and crazy scenarios. What I don’t do is suggest that any of these creative ideas represent truth. And that is the essential difference between my thinking and religionists.

Kat

DJ,

Oh, so you're looking for evidence but not moving towards proving something....Uh well no I am not looking for evidence for gods, if that is what you meant. That is the role of theists if they so choose. I see no reason to search since I see no need for gods.

Kat

Well, I guess that sums up our differing opinions.

To put it in a way that makes my opinion seem better (only because I believe it is;)

I have the ability to think and have faith in things that are beyond my comprehension, I can believe abstractly, whereas you are stuck inside the box, in order for you to believe something exists, it must be brought to you on a silver platter, plain to be seen.

I don't believe I can know everything there is to be known, there are things beyond my grasp.
You believe that everything that exists can be known and understood from a scientific point of view.

And didn't you read what I said about nitpicking at my words? There is much more crediblity to be gained from arguing ideas, not the way in which they are expressed

I just ment to say that it seems as though there is no point to life. The way I see it, you're born, you live you die, the world forgets about you, that is if it ever reconized you in the first place
I always find these kinds of arguments interesting.
How does that in anyway prove the existence of god? Or even suggest the existence of god or anything like that?
Your argument suggests you should be depressed, its doesn't give any validity to theism it just states that for you personally it would suck if there was no god.
What if things suck? Ever think of that?

We want to live, and fear death, because natural selection quickly removed organisms that didn't from the game. You are more likely to breed if you survive, and you are more likely to survive if you want to survive and don't want to die. So those attributes are favoured by natural selection, which is the reason why a common thread throughout the animal and plant kingdoms is they all want to survive.
Being conscious creatures we might need to come up with excuses for our survival instinct to convince ourselves life is logically worth living. For you and many others this manifests itself with religion. Thats an interesting aspect of reality but in no way lends credibility to the mythology of religions being litterally accurate explanations for existence. It explains why people think they are, and why they can't let common sense and logic get the better of them.

The reason its so hard to convince theists they are wrong, even though you destroy them with logic and evidence, even though it only takes a reasonable rational mind to see they are wrong, is because religion is litterally their life line. Its what keeps them going, I would suspect most theists who aren't clinically retarded would subconsciously know religious explanations aren't actually accurate in reality, but its not worth it to them to admit it to themselves. Religion gives them a much needed reason to live, losing that is losing everything. So in a way religious beliefs are the survival instinct in action. Its heavily imbedded into us to survive. We non-thiests have just found other ways to validate continuing to live, they haven't yet.

DJ,

And didn't you read what I said about nitpicking at my words?Yes I did and I deliberately did not nitpick, but your ideas are embedded in your words and you infuse them with offensive innuendo and insults. If you make statements with which I disagree then I am going to isolate them and refute them, to do otherwise would make it appear that I am giving tacit agreement.

I have the ability to think and have faith in things that are beyond my comprehension,This is otherwise known as irrationality, i.e. assuming something is true without evidence.

I can believe abstractly, And without evidence you will be wrong far more often than you are correct. I see no value in being wrong most of the time. Given the total set of near infinite human imaginative abstract ideas only a tiny fraction will map to a reality. The only meaningful way to select the real items is through evidence.

whereas you are stuck inside the box,What box?

in order for you to believe something exists, it must be brought to you on a silver platter, plain to be seen.If someone makes a claim that they want me to believe then yes indeed they must present evidence as is standard practice in science. However, if there is something I believe might be real then I will go in search of appropriate evidence.

I don't believe I can know everything there is to be known, there are things beyond my grasp.I agree.

You believe that everything that exists can be known and understood from a scientific point of view.You should stop trying to tell me what I believe since you really have no idea. I believe no such thing. But that doesn’t justify anyone making a claim for something they believe is true without evidence. If something is truly unknowable then it will always remain unknown. Claiming it to be truth is simply irrational and irresponsible.

Kat

tell me why things you can observe with your senses merit any more faith than things that you can't.

They don't.. Because they can be observed, faith has little place. It's that which can't be observed in any way whatsoever that requires faith.

I wouldn't require faith to say theres a computer sitting in front of me, would I? Sure, it might not actually be a computer, but a purple ogre named dennis - but it is the latter, the unsupported and frankly quite ridiculous notions, that require faith, (also known as daydreaming/wishful thinking).

You could state that perhaps nothing is real, but then there's little point to really care about a god anyway. When you read a bible, you're not actually reading a bible -because it really isn't a bible, but a five footed football playing hippopotamus.

To quote Mark Twain:"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."