This is a series of questions for people to answer. This is a question that so far no one I've asked has been able to answer.

If most emotional expressions are fake, and no one really knows what anyone else is feeling, why do we care so much about emotional display, is it not simply acting?

emotionally independent, to avoid being an emotional hostage, is it possible to own your emotions?

emotionally independent, to avoid being an emotional hostage, why tell anyone how you really feel if no one cares how you feel?

So the real question, asked in any number of ways, why do we display fake emotions to each other? Fake smiles, laughs, sadness, happiness, anger, what is the point of the display?

Most emotional expressions on most all people are not fake. I say "most all people" because I suppose this may depend on where you live as there could be a psychological cultural factor involved in this. For example, what I am referring to is that some people in say New York City may have the disposition to display some fake or fained emotions that people that live in, lets say, a mid-central farming community would never even have the time to think about doing. Get the picture?

So I really don't know what you mean by "fake emotions"?

Now at the end of your post you refer to "fake smiles, laughs, sadness, happiness, anger, etc." People, in general, try to empathize with others. This is a key word that you need to know: empathy. We try to understand and be aware of what other people are going through and in doing so this requires empathy. We project what we know into trying to understand where the other person is coming from and in the same process we exhibit the same emotions - real or fake on our part - that they do.

I hope this answers your question and helps you understand what empathy is all about. If not, I can get into more detail on specifics. Cheers!

Most emotional expressions on most all people are not fake. I say "most all people" because I suppose this may depend on where you live as there could be a psychological cultural factor involved in this. For example, what I am referring to is that some people in say New York City may have the disposition to display some fake or fained emotions that people that live in, lets say, a mid-central farming community would never even have the time to think about doing. Get the picture?

So I really don't know what you mean by "fake emotions"?

Now at the end of your post you refer to "fake smiles, laughs, sadness, happiness, anger, etc." People, in general, try to empathize with others. This is a key word that you need to know: empathy. We try to understand and be aware of what other people are going through and in doing so this requires empathy. We project what we know into trying to understand where the other person is coming from and in the same process we exhibit the same emotions - real or fake on our part - that they do.

I hope this answers your question and helps you understand what empathy is all about. If not, I can get into more detail on specifics. Cheers!

Why should I believe you have empathy just because you make a face at me, or say the word empathy? You think it's really that simple?

Why should someone believe your emotions are real if you offer no proof?

If most emotional expressions are fake, and no one really knows what anyone else is feeling, why do we care so much about emotional display, is it not simply acting?

Sure it's acting ...and it's so we can feel like we're fitting into our surroundings ....and to get laid!

emotionally independent, to avoid being an emotional hostage, is it possible to own your emotions?

Hmm, usually when we "own" our own emotions, the people around us shun us and call us nasty names and make all kinds of nasty accusations about us.

emotionally independent, to avoid being an emotional hostage, why tell anyone how you really feel if no one cares how you feel?

Because they're pretending to care also so they fit in with the group. If we tell them exactly how and what we're feeling, we'd be ostracized in no time!

So the real question, asked in any number of ways, why do we display fake emotions to each other? Fake smiles, laughs, sadness, happiness, anger, what is the point of the display?

So we can fool someone that we're attracted to and have sex with them!

Baron Max

TT have you been faking it? Or has someone been faking it for you?

Perhaps the fakers are trying to deliberately deceive or are simply afraid to show their true emotions in case they are misread or made fun of.

TT have you been faking it? Or has someone been faking it for you?

Perhaps the fakers are trying to deliberately deceive or are simply afraid to show their true emotions in case they are misread or made fun of.

TT just doesn't think too well sometimes when he posts, that's all. It seems that something will pop into his head, and he posts it without giving it even a cursory thought or analysis.

Baron Max

TT just doesn't think too well sometimes when he posts, that's all. It seems that something will pop into his head, and he posts it without giving it even a cursory thought or analysis.

Baron Max



You are the only one who honestly answered the question. Everyone else would rather blame the question because they can't answer it.

But your post displays fear, fear of being shunned by the group. Who is the group anyway? Are they being fake?

You should believe that I have real empathy because I have mirror neurons.


Do you have real emotions? If so, what makes you so special as to be the only one?


edit: fixed repeated sentance.

We fake emotional expression because we choose to do so. It is for reasons of satisfying expectation in social bonding without rendering ourselves to exposed and vulnerable. Also, if one is truly paying attention then the reality of the emotional state will be more evident than otherwise.

You should believe that I have empathy because I have mirror nuerons.You should believe that I have real empathy because I have mirror neurons.


Do you have real emotions? If so, what makes you so special as to be the only one?

How do I know that? I have not scanned your brain to find out.

Why do you have to do it for it to count?

to manipulate situations of course...

you can tell the difference when you experience a REAL emotion... your face responds almost randomly and you are surprised by the smile that's spontaneously appeared on your face.

i felt this recently when i saw the first scan of my baby... spontaneous smile, surprise and tears even.. even my voice changed when the doctor said 'what do you think?'

I wouldn't regard myself as a fake person / false person and yet I realised in that moment how many of my facial expressions are contrived to follow social norms and it's all part of the emperor's new clothes we wear without realising sometimes...

Go the real!!!!

Hey... just made me think about the cannibals... when westerners smiled at them, trying to communicate (via their system of body language / facials) that they were friendly and harmless... the cannibals attacked them... This was because to them, smiling (and baring teeth) meant "I want / am going to eat you!"

haha

to manipulate situations of course...

you can tell the difference when you experience a REAL emotion... your face responds almost randomly and you are surprised by the smile that's spontaneously appeared on your face.

i felt this recently when i saw the first scan of my baby... spontaneous smile, surprise and tears even.. even my voice changed when the doctor said 'what do you think?'

I wouldn't regard myself as a fake person / false person and yet I realised in that moment how many of my facial expressions are contrived to follow social norms and it's all part of the emperor's new clothes we wear without realising sometimes...

Go the real!!!!

Hey... just made me think about the cannibals... when westerners smiled at them, trying to communicate (via their system of body language / facials) that they were friendly and harmless... the cannibals attacked them... This was because to them, smiling (and baring teeth) meant "I want / am going to eat you!"

haha

Yeah, but this is just it, smiles have no meaning. They are just showing teeth. Unless I know you, how would I know what you feel? I have no clue. Your facial expressions don't change the fact that I have no clue.

Why do you have to do it for it to count?

Words are not proof of feeling.

Facial expressions have a strong correlation across the entire human species. No matter the culture, people facing a funny or happy situation react the same way - they smile.


"words are not proof of feeling". I agree. Again I ask, why do you need to be the one to do my brain scan for the results to be real?

Just because something is common, it does not mean it's useful, or real. Maybe facial expressions exist so that people can manipulate you better.

river-wind: that's not true - did you read my post above.

it might be becoming more that way now due to globalisation and the americanisation/westernisation of the world.. but it is definitely not the case historically across cultures (re: cannibals etc).. what if the cannibals instead of the non-cannibal westerners had been the predominant earth culture today? smiling would have a totally different meaning for the whole world. we are animals afterall... ever seen a dog bare it's teeth like it's smiling just before it takes a chunk out of someone?

some cultures nod and 'cheep' when they experience something akin to humour...

non-westernised indigenous australians don't 'cry' like europeans, they make a strange kind of animal noise and sway....

we can assume as much as we want, but the truth is more complex.

river-wind: that's not true - did you read my post above.

it might be becoming more that way now due to globalisation and the americanisation/westernisation of the world.. but it is definitely not the case historically across cultures (re: cannibals etc).. what if the cannibals instead of the non-cannibal westerners had been the predominant earth culture today? smiling would have a totally different meaning for the whole world. we are animals afterall... ever seen a dog bare it's teeth like it's smiling just before it takes a chunk out of someone?

some cultures nod and 'cheep' when they experience something akin to humour...

non-westernised indigenous australians don't 'cry' like europeans, they make a strange kind of animal noise and sway....

we can assume as much as we want, but the truth is more complex.

Jeffrey Dahmer was a cannibal. You act as if cannibalism isnt western. So I guess the western cannibal will smile in your face while eating you? This makes it better?

absynnia: that is a special case; it is true for chimps as well - they smile with their bottom teeth. However, I'd say that case, as a single outlyer from the norm, is social modification of a natural reaction.

When europeans traveled around the world 400 years ago, they were amazed to find people...people who smiled, danced, and acted in many ways the same as they did.

and a dog bearing it's teeth is very different from smiling - I can bare my teeth, and very few people would mistake it for a smile.

It's possible that my information about people across the globe smiling, but I've seen alot of evidence to support it, from modernised to stone-aged people.

Links or book references to these different behaviors?

It's possible that my information about people across the globe smiling, but I've seen alot of evidence to support it, from modernised to stone-aged people.

But back to the topic, is smiling a sign of actual happiness or pleasure, or can it be faked? And if it can be faked, then....?

Baron Max

If most emotional expressions are fake, and no one really knows what anyone else is feeling, why do we care so much about emotional display, is it not simply acting?I am astounded by the ignorance inherent in your question.

1. Please provide any evidence that most emotional expressions are fake.

2. If you can't tell what people are feeling you really are in deep shit. Granted, one combines tone of voice, body language and the like with conventional emotional expressions to figure this out, but it is a standard human technique. (And dogs can read it also.) Yep, if you can't do that, wow!

I am astounded by the ignorance inherent in your question.

1. Please provide any evidence that most emotional expressions are fake.

2. If you can't tell what people are feeling you really are in deep shit. Granted, one combines tone of voice, body language and the like with conventional emotional expressions to figure this out, but it is a standard human technique. (And dogs can read it also.) Yep, if you can't do that, wow!


Have you ever been backstabbed by a best friend? Cheated on? Lied to? If you assume every emotion is real, people will profit from your naive nature.

Have you ever been backstabbed by a best friend?

The emotional reaction to being back stabbed is usually thought to be real enough, so why then is yours a fake?

Why should someone believe your emotions are real if you offer no proof?
Why should anyone offer any sort of proof?

Why should someone believe your emotions are real if you offer no proof?

And, yeah, what makes you think that the "proof" couldn't or wouldn't be faked as well?

Baron Max

Remarkably TimeTraveller, the Baron and I are on the same wavelength on this one.
You asked me:
Have you ever been backstabbed by a best friend? Cheated on? Lied to?

Now I have no idea why being backstabbed by a best friend would have anything to do with with the inability to read fake emotions. In instances where people are backstabbed by their friend this is rarely a case that the friendship has been faked from day one. Generally it is a matter of people drifitng apart, or facing a traumatic event that engenders different reactions.

Having mediated many backstabbings over the years I find that very often both parties feel they have been betrayed. How does that fit into your thesis?

And, though it is quite incidental, I cannot think of a single occasion when I have been backstabbed by a friend, best or otherwise. When I read your comment I assumed I must have been. I then spent fifteen mintues trying to recall every friendship I have had, looking for evidence of backstabbing. Absolutely none showed up. Have I fallen out with individuals? Of course I have, but backstabbing - it hasn't happened to me.

You also ask, have I been cheated on. Yes. Again, what has that got to do with faking emotions. People cheat, very often, on the spur of the moment. How have I known I have been cheated on? Because I can distinguish between fake emotions and real emotions. Most of the time people display real emotions.

If you assume every emotion is real, people will profit from your naive nature.My entire point is that I do not assume every emotion is real. I determine the honesty of the individual by examining what they are saying, how they are saying it, the tone of their voice, their eye movement, their body language, their skin tone, a thousand different clues. I may not know why someone is lying, but I do know when.
In short, I expect everyone to be straight with me. I give them 100% confidence in their honesty. If they do decide to 'fake it', I have 99% confidence that I'll spot the possibility within seconds.

What I have observed is that not everyone has, or is aware that they have, this ability. It seems to be more common amongst women than men. (They are also better at 'faking it' on those occasions when they do so. Men are comparatively transparent.) Perhaps you need to be more observant. You certainly need to dump this negative attitude that sees every person you communicate with as deceitful and a potential backstabber.

Why should I believe you have empathy just because you make a face at me, or say the word empathy? You think it's really that simple?

Why should someone believe your emotions are real if you offer no proof?

Unless you have a severe mistrust or paranoia about what other people say, or how they express their true facial emotions, or have been subjected to a series of great unfortunate incidences that have led you to such a mistrust in others, then why would you think that the way they express themselves is not true or real, and that it is "fake"?

I used the word emphatic loosely because a person can mean what they say and say what they mean: still being real and true in their words, yet not having enough experience in human society to be emphatic. If you have never experienced the situation that the other person is expressing, then of course it would be much more difficult for you to be emphatic towards it, but your post implies a great mistrust in others, and not just a lack of empathy. This great mistrust that led to your believing in a massive amount of "fake" behavior had to of come from somewhere?

Unless you have a severe mistrust or paranoia about what other people say, or how they express their true facial emotions, or have been subjected to a series of great unfortunate incidences that have led you to such a mistrust in others, then why would you think that the way they express themselves is not true or real, and that it is "fake"?

I used the word emphatic loosely because a person can mean what they say and say what they mean: still being real and true in their words, yet not having enough experience in human society to be emphatic. If you have never experienced the situation that the other person is expressing, then of course it would be much more difficult for you to be emphatic towards it, but your post implies a great mistrust in others, and not just a lack of empathy. This great mistrust that led to your believing in a massive amount of "fake" behavior had to of come from somewhere?

Do you trust a corporation? Of course you don't, so why would you trust a person?

You can't trust who you don't know, people lie all the time, cheat all the time, backstab all the time, and display fake emotions all the time, and most people actually are fake and only show fake.

So you can be naive if you want to, it does not mean most people are showing you real emotions.

Remarkably TimeTraveller, the Baron and I are on the same wavelength on this one.
You asked me:
Have you ever been backstabbed by a best friend? Cheated on? Lied to?

Now I have no idea why being backstabbed by a best friend would have anything to do with with the inability to read fake emotions. In instances where people are backstabbed by their friend this is rarely a case that the friendship has been faked from day one. Generally it is a matter of people drifitng apart, or facing a traumatic event that engenders different reactions.

Having mediated many backstabbings over the years I find that very often both parties feel they have been betrayed. How does that fit into your thesis?

And, though it is quite incidental, I cannot think of a single occasion when I have been backstabbed by a friend, best or otherwise. When I read your comment I assumed I must have been. I then spent fifteen mintues trying to recall every friendship I have had, looking for evidence of backstabbing. Absolutely none showed up. Have I fallen out with individuals? Of course I have, but backstabbing - it hasn't happened to me.

You also ask, have I been cheated on. Yes. Again, what has that got to do with faking emotions. People cheat, very often, on the spur of the moment. How have I known I have been cheated on? Because I can distinguish between fake emotions and real emotions. Most of the time people display real emotions.

If you assume every emotion is real, people will profit from your naive nature.My entire point is that I do not assume every emotion is real. I determine the honesty of the individual by examining what they are saying, how they are saying it, the tone of their voice, their eye movement, their body language, their skin tone, a thousand different clues. I may not know why someone is lying, but I do know when.
In short, I expect everyone to be straight with me. I give them 100% confidence in their honesty. If they do decide to 'fake it', I have 99% confidence that I'll spot the possibility within seconds.

What I have observed is that not everyone has, or is aware that they have, this ability. It seems to be more common amongst women than men. (They are also better at 'faking it' on those occasions when they do so. Men are comparatively transparent.) Perhaps you need to be more observant. You certainly need to dump this negative attitude that sees every person you communicate with as deceitful and a potential backstabber.



So you don't pay attention to what people say(do), you pay attention to how they say it, so a nice beautiful female actress will be able to rob you with word and smiles. You are still naive, and if you think paying attention to body and skin tone helps, why don't you marry Anna Nicole Smith and see what happens to you.

None of the BS you mentioned helps to make a judgement, that just makes you an even bigger fool and easier to trick because you pay more attention to charm than anything else. Tone of voice, can be faked, and people can have plastic surgery, and breast implants, and become fully plastic.

Good luck.

Now I have no idea why being backstabbed by a best friend would have anything to do with with the inability to read fake emotions. In instances where people are backstabbed by their friend this is rarely a case that the friendship has been faked from day one. Generally it is a matter of people drifitng apart, or facing a traumatic event that engenders different reactions.


Real friends don't backstab each other. Fake friends backstab each other because they are actually enemies pretending to be friends.

I may not know why someone is lying, but I do know when.

Some people, their only skill in life is to be a great liar, and they are such masters at it that they can't stop and actually believe their own lies. How exactly would you catch a person like this? You can't, becauseyou won't ever know when they are lying and when they are telling the truth, they will blend the truth with the lies so well that it will be impossible to know the difference.


You certainly need to dump this negative attitude that sees every person you communicate with as deceitful and a potential backstabber.

Most humans like to backstab other people, most humans don't care about other people, most humans hate humans, am I supposed to trust humans? I'd sooner trust my goddamn dog before I trust a stranger, and thats because humans have the worst record for loyalty out of just about every species of animal in existance. Humans are masters and mistresses of deceit, and they enjoy lying to each other, cheating on each other, backstabbing each other, hurting each other, torturing and bullying each other out of existance.

So when you know the true nature of humans, why would you trust any human you don't know any more than you'd trust a wild animal? Humans are essentially animals of the ape kind(chimp to be precise).

I am sorry for the difficult time you have had, and the bad luck you have experienced with your aquiantences. My own relations with people have not been nearly so bad as to agree with you.

People are monkeys, yes. And like monkeys, we are social in nature, and usually have strong bonds with our family and friends. Our emotions are real, and we express them as such. A certain subset of the population fake those emotional expressions to manipulate those around them for thier own gain. Othen, these people have had bad life experiences which allow them to wall themselves off from the people they hurt; because in thier understanding everyone does it.

There is also a mental disorder "disociative disorder, IIRC) where people do not feel empathy. They are unable to connect thier own emotional responses to the feelings that others have. These people tend to have a very difficult time in life, because they unwittingly creating thier own isolation from others, and even run afoul of social and criminal rules. These people tend to have a high rate of criminal offense, as a result.

A certain subset of the population fake those emotional expressions to manipulate those around them for thier own gain.

Well, ya' know what they say about one rotten apple in the barrel?? ...it ruins things for all of the apples! And that's exactly what few rotten people do to a society ....makes us all distrustful and anxious about strangers.

One thousand good experiences can be completely fucked over by one bad experience. That's life, that's reality, and anyone who tries to make it any different is just fooling himself and others. Carry a legal, concealed weapon and be prepared for that one asshole!

Baron Max

I am sorry for the difficult time you have had, and the bad luck you have experienced with your aquiantences. My own relations with people have not been nearly so bad as to agree with you.

Thats because you grew up rich and sheltered from the harshness of the world. You are naive, admit that you are naive and that you don't have a clue what humans are capable of. There are humans that would torture you to death, open you up and eat you alive, literally. The only reason millions of humans arent acting like this is because it's illegal, not because they don't hate you.


People are monkeys, yes. And like monkeys, we are social in nature, and usually have strong bonds with our family and friends. Our emotions are real, and we express them as such. A certain subset of the population fake those emotional expressions to manipulate those around them for thier own gain. Othen, these people have had bad life experiences which allow them to wall themselves off from the people they hurt;

If bad life experience is the cause, explain to me why the richest and most powerful, care the least about the poorest and most vulnerable. It has nothing to do with life experience. It's very simple, some people just don't care about anyone else, not you, not me, not the world, not the species, not the planet, none of us.

because in thier understanding everyone does it.
There is also a mental disorder "disociative disorder, IIRC) where people do not feel empathy. They are unable to connect thier own emotional responses to the feelings that others have. These people tend to have a very difficult time in life, because they unwittingly creating thier own isolation from others, and even run afoul of social and criminal rules. These people tend to have a high rate of criminal offense, as a result.

Yeah, I know the kinda people you are talking about, thats the majority of people in some places, and they make up at least 20% of the American population. I say at least because this is an estimate, it would be as high as 50%, or 60%, but a large chunk of the population, individuals you'll eventually come into contact with, some who may be friends of yours, some may be your boss, or one of your children may be like this, even your wife. So you cannot say that empathy is a trait to be expected from the masses, it's an individual trait that some people have and understand, not a universal trait.

It may seem like I'm paranoid, or that I don't trust strangers, it's only because I grew up unsheltered, I was not protected from the world like you, I was not protected from strangers, or from all the hate, I saw it earlier than you did, experienced it sooner, and adapted to reality. The reality is, at this very moment, millions of humans hate your guts, they don't even need a reason, they hate you because you exist, because you were born, and thats that. If you offer trust to a person who hates you, what do you think they will do with it? They will use it as a weapon to hurt you, in fact anything you give them will be used as a weapon to hurt you. Do you understand?

I'm sure not everyones emotions are fake, I'm just saying enough people have fake emotions that you cannot assume someones emotons are automatically real, you cannot cut them any slack, you cannot give people anything they have not earned. If they earn it, then you can give it, but it's not supposed to be free. Anything worthwhile, should have a price, a cost, and should be earned, this includes trust, this includes friendship, this includes all these things you give to people for free when they don't deserve it.

Let people earn your faith in them as an individual, let people earn your trust, your friendship, let people earn the huge increase in quality of life that you have to offer them. STOP GIVING yourself away to people who hate you.

And, yeah, what makes you think that the "proof" couldn't or wouldn't be faked as well?

Baron Max

Depends on the proof. It's more difficult to fake some things, but I won't name which things in specific.

This is a series of questions for people to answer. This is a question that so far no one I've asked has been able to answer.

If most emotional expressions are fake, and no one really knows what anyone else is feeling, why do we care so much about emotional display, is it not simply acting?

emotionally independent, to avoid being an emotional hostage, is it possible to own your emotions?

emotionally independent, to avoid being an emotional hostage, why tell anyone how you really feel if no one cares how you feel?

So the real question, asked in any number of ways, why do we display fake emotions to each other? Fake smiles, laughs, sadness, happiness, anger, what is the point of the display?

Your premise is wrong.

Your premise is wrong.
Where?

Do you trust a corporation? Of course you don't, so why would you trust a person?

You can't trust who you don't know, people lie all the time, cheat all the time, backstab all the time, and display fake emotions all the time, and most people actually are fake and only show fake.

So you can be naive if you want to, it does not mean most people are showing you real emotions.A corporation is not "a" person: it is an entity.

I can trust whom I don't know until they show me that they cannot be trusted. Of course, I'm not going to go out on a limb and loan a complete stranger a thousand dollars if I don't know them. But I have loaned a friend or two more than that to help them out, and was payed back, because we trust each other. These are the people that I associate with and who become my friends.

If all the people that you know "lie all the time, cheat all the time, backstab all the time, and display fake emotions all the time," then I strongly urge you to hang out with other people and make different friends that come from a different type of social class (and I don't mean richer or poorer), because the ones that you know now are obviously a bunch of losers and you're heading down that same dead-end street along with them.

There are good people in the world. You just have to know how to find them. Of course if you lie and cheat and backstab and display fake emotions and fake facial expressions yourself, or play psychological, or reverse psychological, mind games with other people; then you can expect that that's probably what they're going to do to you to, given the temptation.

I'm not a religious man, but I was. In fact, technically speaking I'm even legally a minister, but that was just a sham (different story). But have you ever been to church? You don't have to have any beliefs at all just to go to a church. Go to one that's not too conservative, like a Presybterian, or non-denominational church. You can pick up a lot of good advise through the sermons and when it comes to anything that relates to God or Christ you don't have to listen to it or believe in any of it at all. But there are good people that go to some of these places and I do suggest that you at least just go to one to talk with the people and listen a bit.

There are other social events that you could consider, especially volunteer organizations like the Red Cross. These are good people, and you know that they are good because why else would they be giving their heart and sole into what they are doing without any thought of getting paid for it. Take a course in lifesaving or first aid.

Other events to consider are short courses that are often offered in the evenings at local high schools and community colleges. Give'm a call, pick a sunject that interests you, then go check it out. If you don't like it the first time, no one is going to force you to return, and it won't cost you a cent. And you can choose whatever subject you want: dancing, art work, sculpturing, photography, business and computer skill training, yoga and meditation, martial arts - hey that's a good one! Teaches you to focus.

The possibilities of finding good people in the world are endless, and I've only given you a handful of the countless number of possible suggestions and paths that you could take to find them.

Having mediated many backstabbings over the years I find that very often both parties feel they have been betrayed. How does that fit into your thesis?

And, though it is quite incidental, I cannot think of a single occasion when I have been backstabbed by a friend, best or otherwise. When I read your comment I assumed I must have been. I then spent fifteen mintues trying to recall every friendship I have had, looking for evidence of backstabbing. Absolutely none showed up. Have I fallen out with individuals? Of course I have, but backstabbing - it hasn't happened to me.

Because I can distinguish between fake emotions and real emotions. Most of the time people display real emotions.

Mediate a backstabbing situation? You?

You are such a hypocrite! After all the backstabbing incidents that you intentionally instigated yourself? Just to boost your own ego and fulfill your self-proficized illusions of grandeur, because you think that you are always right and everyone else is wrong? On how many threads have you acted this way. So vainly?

Think of all the times you've backstabbed me! You are living proof that moss grows on a rolling stone.

Hypocrite! Every post that you've ever entered in following something that I stated - even if cited it from another source, which you also always chronically criticize, hypocrite! - has been a backstab! Bar none.

A corporation is not "a" person: it is an entity.
Corporations are persons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

I can trust whom I don't know until they show me that they cannot be trusted.

Those whom you don' t know can backstab you until you find out they cannot be trusted.

Of course, I'm not going to go out on a limb and loan a complete stranger a thousand dollars if I don't know them. But I have loaned a friend or two more than that to help them out, and was payed back, because we trust each other. These are the people that I associate with and who become my friends.

I was not talking about your friends. Friends are those who can be trusted and who care about your existance.

Business partners are those who can be trusted and who care about the existance of your corporation as a person.


If all the people that you know "lie all the time, cheat all the time, backstab all the time, and display fake emotions all the time," then I strongly urge you to hang out with other people and make different friends that come from a different type of social class (and I don't mean richer or poorer), because the ones that you know now are obviously a bunch of losers and you're heading down that same dead-end street along with them.

When did I ever say these were my friends or that I was one of them? I'm just pointing out those who you ignore, they do exist, and you may end up doing business with them.

There are good people in the world. You just have to know how to find them. Of course if you lie and cheat and backstab and display fake emotions and fake facial expressions yourself, or play psychological, or reverse psychological, mind games with other people; then you can expect that that's probably what they're going to do to you to, given the temptation.

It does not matter how you treat some people, some people will play you regardless of how you treat them or what you say, because it's their profession. Just because you take the snobby attitude of trying to ignore the existance of these types of people, it does not mean they do not exist and will not rip you off and relieve you of some of your time and money.

I'm not a religious man, but I was. In fact, technically speaking I'm even legally a minister, but that was just a sham (different story). But have you ever been to church? You don't have to have any beliefs at all just to go to a church. Go to one that's not too conservative, like a Presybterian, or non-denominational church. You can pick up a lot of good advise through the sermons and when it comes to anything that relates to God or Christ you don't have to listen to it or believe in any of it at all. But there are good people that go to some of these places and I do suggest that you at least just go to one to talk with the people and listen a bit.

I know there are good and bad people at church. There are good and bad people everywhere. So that's the point I'm making. I'm saying don't make trust a commodity! Keep it a luxury, a rare and prized possesion so people have a reason to value it and protect it. Try to keep your word as good as gold, and try to maintain a high trustability on your credit rating.

There are other social events that you could consider, especially volunteer organizations like the Red Cross. These are good people, and you know that they are good because why else would they be giving their heart and sole into what they are doing without any thought of getting paid for it.

You cannot assume everyone who works for the Redcross is doing so for good reasons. There are good and bad people even in the Redcross.

Take a course in lifesaving or first aid.

Other events to consider are short courses that are often offered in the evenings at local high schools and community colleges. Give'm a call, pick a sunject that interests you, then go check it out. If you don't like it the first time, no one is going to force you to return, and it won't cost you a cent. And you can choose whatever subject you want: dancing, art work, sculpturing, photography, business and computer skill training, yoga and meditation, martial arts - hey that's a good one! Teaches you to focus.

The possibilities of finding good people in the world are endless, and I've only given you a handful of the countless number of possible suggestions and paths that you could take to find them.

Of course it's not impossible to find good people, I'm saying there is no single place or group, on planet earth that is 100% filled with good people. There may be good families and good individuals, but there is no one place where all good people go, that bad people don't somehow get into. You go to church, and there are bad people there. You go to school and there are bad people there. You go to the non profit and there are bad people there.

So while there might be MORE good people than bad in many places, there is no single place with ONLY good people, and therefore, you must judge on an individual basis. Judging on a group basis is not accurate enough for application. Each individual has potential to do good or and bad acts, you have to rate each individual based on the information you gather on them, one by one, minute to minute, second to second, your conclusions about them can change in an instant, as no one is permanently anything. If you want to be considered a good person, act like one, because if you backstab anyone, word does spread, and in the end it's as if you backstabbed everyone.

It's important to be a good person, but a person who does not know you, should have no reason to believe you aren't an evil person, guilty until proven innocent. Prove you are good over time, and be treated as good. Earn your social capital.

Why are emotions “fake”?

Why are emotions “fake”?


Emotions arent fake. Facial expressions are. Facial expressions are a form of speech, easily faked by an actor or actress. Politicians do this all the time. Watch carefully.

Carry a legal, concealed weapon and be prepared for that one asshole!
Do you follow your own advice? Surely if you did you would already of shot some arsehole(s). I'm guessing you'd be dealing with arseholes on a daily basis ;)

Why are emotions “fake”?Be pure in thought. That's what I've been saying to deaf ears.

Why are emotions fake?

Why would emotion be fake?

Why should emotions be fake?

Unless you're hanging around with a bad group of people who are trying to take advantage of you? That's all that I can see of this?

Be pure in thought. That's what I've been saying to deaf ears.

Why are emotions fake?

Why would emotion be fake?

Why should emotions be fake?

Unless you're hanging around with a bad group of people who are trying to take advantage of you? That's all that I can see of this?

How many lawyers, politicians, or businessmen have you met?

You think you have the freedom to choose who you do business with at all times? You think you get to choose who you deal with? Sometimes you don't.

I'm not saying you have to seek out these sorts, but you will have to do business with these sorts among others. Not everyone who smiles in your face and shakes your hand is looking out for your best interest.You of all people should know this.

How many lawyers, politicians, or businessmen have you met?

You think you have the freedom to choose who you do business with at all times? You think you get to choose who you deal with? Sometimes you don't.

I'm not saying you have to seek out these sorts, but you will have to do business with these sorts among others. Not everyone who smiles in your face and shakes your hand is looking out for your best interest.You of all people should know this.

Many!

I have been sued.
I have consulted with my state's congressmen many time to alleviate certain circumstances.
And I have an MBA.
Also, I have owned my own business.

I think that you do not know who you are talking to. Rather, let me reword that. I think that you have no idea about the experiences of the person that you are replying to. How can I help you please?

Be pure in thought. That's what I've been saying to deaf ears.

But YOU (the general "you") being pure of thought has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not those around you are being "pure of thought". One can be "pure of thought" and still get fucked at both ends!

Unless you're hanging around with a bad group of people who are trying to take advantage of you? That's all that I can see of this?

What about when you're hanging around with a group of people you don't know, who are not "pure of thought" and who are hiding their true thoughts, all the while trying to fuck over you?

See? Unless you can tell whether someone is "pure of thought", then you could get fucked no matter what you do. I.e., getting faked out. I think, all-in-all, there are a lot more liars and cheats in the world than "nice guys"!

Baron Max

See? Unless you can tell whether someone is "pure of thought", then you could get fucked no matter what you do. I.e., getting faked out. I think, all-in-all, there are a lot more liars and cheats in the world than "nice guys"!

Baron Max

I think it's more like 50/50 ratio between nice guy and jerk, but even if most of the world were filled with nice guys, they certainly aren't ever all going to be in once place, at one time. So whereever you are, you are likely going to be surrounded by the typical personality types, and a nice guy will be sprinkled in here or there.

I find it hard to believe, that he could be in the business world, and be involved with politicians and lawyers, and all of them were nice guys? That's as unlikely of an environment as a person could be in. Next I will hear that there are nice guys working for the tabacco company, and that the politicians and businessmen care about peoples lives when they tell everyone they do on TV.

I guess I'm skeptical. I know there are nice people, I'm just saying it's not safe to assume everyone is that way by default. I used to do that, but I know better.

Many!

I have been sued.
I have consulted with my state's congressmen many time to alleviate certain circumstances.
And I have an MBA.
Also, I have owned my own business.

I think that you do not know who you are talking to. Rather, let me reword that. I think that you have no idea about the experiences of the person that you are replying to. How can I help you please?

I know exactly who I'm talking to because I know how your mind works. I don't know about your experiences, but you say you have owned your business, why don't you still own it? You have an MBA, good for you, but that does not tell me that you have experience dealing with the kinds of people you'll have to deal with on a daily basis when you get closer to large amounts of money and power. The closer you get to the fire, the hotter it gets and the more likely you are to get burned and sacrificed. Some people just do for self, they want the cash.

You can help me by helping yourself.

If all the people that you know "lie all the time, cheat all the time, backstab all the time, and display fake emotions all the time," then I strongly urge you to hang out with other people and make different friends that come from a different type of social class (and I don't mean richer or poorer), because the ones that you know now are obviously a bunch of losers and you're heading down that same dead-end street along with them.

When did I ever say these were my friends or that I was one of them? I'm just pointing out those who you ignore, they do exist, and you may end up doing business with them.
By not specifying in the OP that you were talking about *some* people, it is assumed that the plural of "person" ("people") means *all* of them.

Of course it's not impossible to find good people, I'm saying there is no single place or group, on planet earth that is 100% filled with good people.
No shit, Sherlock. People often give in to their selfish desires, and consciously and unconsciously hurt others because of it. Those in power of the most benign of groups will be quickly tempted to abuse thier power for thier own ends. Many will succumb to those desires.
This isn't the same as what you wrote in the opening post.

I know exactly who I'm talking to because I know how your mind works. I don't know about your experiences, but you say you have owned your business, why don't you still own it? You have an MBA, good for you, but that does not tell me that you have experience dealing with the kinds of people you'll have to deal with on a daily basis when you get closer to large amounts of money and power. The closer you get to the fire, the hotter it gets and the more likely you are to get burned and sacrificed. Some people just do for self, they want the cash.

You can help me by helping yourself.

First, I no longer own my own business - an Auto Repair Center - because I sold it in order to continue my advanced education: education is my passion.

Second, Yes, the closer you get to the fire, the more careful you must be, else get burned, but that does not preclude that you cannot be good friends with the associate that you are dealing with and have to mistrust him/her. My brother is a regional manager for a very large corporation, which I think I am not at liberty to disclose on a forum. His position deals with big money - again, I am not at liberty to disclose how big - but when he goes to conventions, he sits down and chats with the buyers and sellers that he must deal with and they chat as trustful friends - certainly not as thieves!

Third, Personally, because I am a very busy person with numerous endeavors, I do admit that I am a difficult person to make friends with. I already have a lot - maybe too many - friends, colleagues, neighbors, former classmates and associates. I do not shake hands and I rarely look another person in the eyes unless it is something important, or unless we are good friends or very intimate. Looking a person eye-to-eye during a business deal is interculturally known, respected, and seldom breached - never breached in my experiences - as I definitive facial expression of mutual agreement on the contractual situation. However, I have encountered people who tend to consistently look at you eye-to-eye, but I guess maybe I have a knack of telling a real expression from that of a crook or thief, and in such a situation as this, we would soon part - definitively.

Fourth, Positive, motivated, like-minded and honest people seem to attract the same and the same is true for negative, dishonest people: thieves and crooks tend to band together. But in my circle of friends, honesty is ALWAYS a given, without exception. And we all seem to have a socially accepted tendency to abide by this social-rule, without question.

So again I say, if the people that you know consistantly lie to you, steal from you, stab you in the back; then I strongly urge you to leave that social group and find your own true and rightful place in society. And if you don not believe that what they are doing is right, and you believe that there is a wrong in this, then you do not belong in this segment of society. And there are a lot of alternative options.

Finally, I do not like the Mormons for personal reasons that I will not get into (another story); however, they are honest people! I live only a few hours drive from Vegas and have been told my some of the casino managers there that they like to hire Mormons because they can always count on their honesty when it comes to dealing with the money. Although drifting off the subject a bit here, I state this as an example of honesty, and this is perhaps the first time that I ever praised the Mormons for one - and only one - of their traits, just to show a point.

There are honest, good, nice, caring people out there in the world who have no inclination of stabbing you in the back, and perhaps I am blessed by having friends with so many people like this. But as I stated above, there are many options available to anyone to find similar people: volunteer organizations such as the Red Cross, World Aid, Sierra Club, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, the Peace Corps; the Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, and Indian Guides; church groups with their day-to-day social events. Seek out these beneficial volunteer social organizations in your community.

My friends do not stab me in the back, and I have never been stabbed in the back by any of my friends. My friends do not lie to me, and I have never been lied to by any of my friends. Almost all of my friends are there to count on in times of need, if within their means, and they have never let me down, nor have I ever let them down. This is who I am and where I am coming from - if you know me?

First, I no longer own my own business - an Auto Repair Center - because I sold it in order to continue my advanced education: education is my passion.

Point #1 taken

Second, Yes, the closer you get to the fire, the more careful you must be, else get burned, but that does not preclude that you cannot be good friends with the associate that you are dealing with and have to mistrust him/her. My brother is a regional manager for a very large corporation, which I think I am not at liberty to disclose on a forum. His position deals with big money - again, I am not at liberty to disclose how big - but when he goes to conventions, he sits down and chats with the buyers and sellers that he must deal with and they chat as trustful friends - certainly not as thieves!

Point #2 not taken. Whenever there is $ involved, loyalty decreases as the amount of $ increases. Humans usually put material things before people, just look at the world, lots of paper money, miserable people.


Third, Personally, because I am a very busy person with numerous endeavors, I do admit that I am a difficult person to make friends with. I already have a lot - maybe too many - friends, colleagues, neighbors, former classmates and associates.

Too many friends? How can a person have too many friends? Too litlte time you have, not too many friends. Maybe you should change your priorities or start a family reunion ritual.


I do not shake hands and I rarely look another person in the eyes unless it is something important, or unless we are good friends or very intimate. Looking a person eye-to-eye during a business deal is interculturally known, respected, and seldom breached - never breached in my experiences - as I definitive facial expression of mutual agreement on the contractual situation. However, I have encountered people who tend to consistently look at you eye-to-eye, but I guess maybe I have a knack of telling a real expression from that of a crook or thief, and in such a situation as this, we would soon part - definitively.


Obviously there must be people good at being fake, otherwise we wouldnt have a fake world. We live in a world where everyone says they care about the children, but in the same world, billions of people needlessly suffer. Meaningless words.


Fourth, Positive, motivated, like-minded and honest people seem to attract the same and the same is true for negative, dishonest people: thieves and crooks tend to band together. But in my circle of friends, honesty is ALWAYS a given, without exception. And we all seem to have a socially accepted tendency to abide by this social-rule, without question.


I know this. But this is not absolute, and it takes years, decades to do that. A teenager or younger person might not ever meet a good person in their life, in fact many people are born and from birth until their death never meet a good person, as a result they live life as if everyone is a bad person and become bad themselves in the process. This is likely what happens to children in third world countries who run around with guns as child soldiers. They don't believe there are any good people in the world, and why should they? How do you think the children who grew up working in the sweatshop feel? Have you ever considered how they feel if you claim to be such a good person? Have you ever thought about what it must be like to never recieve any love from anyone for an entire lifetime? Give it some thought. Give some thought to why some people recieve no compassion from anyone for their entire life.

So again I say, if the people that you know consistantly lie to you, steal from you, stab you in the back; then I strongly urge you to leave that social group and find your own true and rightful place in society.

I know that, it's not about me. Not every question I ask, or debate I have, is about me personally, or my personal experiences. I have the ability to understand other peoples experiences, and feel the pain of others, and the world is a fucked up fake place. There is a child dying right now, that never felt loved by anyone. To this child, all people are evil, all people are bad, and this child likely hates people. In fact most of us have gone through this phase at some point. I know there was once a time when I thought ALL people were bad, but then I realized that only most people were bad, not all. I learned that there were good people, but I was also lucky to be born into a decent family, so I never truly believed all people were bad. What if you were born into the bad family, and everyone in your family abuses everyone else, including you, well then you go to school and you get abused by the people there, and by your friends, and your girlfriend, and then you get divorced by your wife, and your kids don't love you. Do you see how easily a person can come to the conclusion that all people are evil monsters? Even if it's not true 100% of the time, your personal experiences decide how true it is for you, and for some people, they have no way to know what a real person is like because they never met one or never had a real friend.

What say you?


And if you don not believe that what they are doing is right, and you believe that there is a wrong in this, then you do not belong in this segment of society. And there are a lot of alternative options.

Finally, I do not like the Mormons for personal reasons that I will not get into (another story); however, they are honest people! I live only a few hours drive from Vegas and have been told my some of the casino managers there that they like to hire Mormons because they can always count on their honesty when it comes to dealing with the money. Although drifting off the subject a bit here, I state this as an example of honesty, and this is perhaps the first time that I ever praised the Mormons for one - and only one - of their traits, just to show a point.

There are honest, good, nice, caring people out there in the world who have no inclination of stabbing you in the back, and perhaps I am blessed by having friends with so many people like this. But as I stated above, there are many options available to anyone to find similar people: volunteer organizations such as the Red Cross, World Aid, Sierra Club, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, the Peace Corps; the Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, and Indian Guides; church groups with their day-to-day social events. Seek out these beneficial volunteer social organizations in your community.

My friends do not stab me in the back, and I have never been stabbed in the back by any of my friends. My friends do not lie to me, and I have never been lied to by any of my friends. Almost all of my friends are there to count on in times of need, if within their means, and they have never let me down, nor have I ever let them down. This is who I am and where I am coming from - if you know me?


Yes I know your type. The majority of the world is not like you, and I know you well enough to know that you know this.

Point #2 not taken. Whenever there is $ involved, loyalty decreases as the amount of $ increases.


That is horribly wrong. The dollar thrives precisely because of the loyalty to it.

The World is actually extremely short of paper money, money with any intrinsic value, while overwhelmed with notional money, i.e. credit, and the credit is entirely a matter of trust.

Except that you trust a bank, the bank would not possibly operate, and the reason that the banks own more power than the politicians is that you trust the bank but not the government.

That is horribly wrong. The dollar thrives precisely because of the loyalty to it.

No one is loyal to paper with ink. That's not loyalty to the dollar, thats loyalty to greed, it's something different, it's loyalty to corporations, it's loyalty to self

The World is actually extremely short of paper money, money with any intrinsic value, while overwhelmed with notional money, i.e. credit, and the credit is entirely a matter of trust.

Why are you trying to defend paper money? Money a matter of trust? Okay how much money is actually real money? No one knows. What we do know is that your paper money is worth less as inflation rises. We know that the value of your time is unstable, therefore the value of your energy is unstable, the numbers, paper, and ink, it's not real money. Money once relied on the gold standard, now I'm not even sure where money comes from myself, do you know?


Except that you trust a bank, the bank would not possibly operate, and the reason that the banks own more power than the politicians is that you trust the bank but not the government

That's not it either. I don't trust a bank, especially a bank, I mean really do you actually trust banks?! What I'm saying is, I trust corporations and governments to protect the value of money, thats why money is real. Money is only real because government and corporations make it real. Africa would be the richest country due to it's natural resources in Gold, Diamonds, Silver, Silicon, and other minerals, and the only reason it isnt is because money is paper. If money were Gold, we'd all want to move to Africa where all the Gold is. Actually, the truth is, money is oil. It's oil that maintains the value of the dollar at least, so it's oil that is the most important force in the US economy, and perhaps the world economy. It's the central force in the economy. Let's hope oil never runs out or we are in serious trouble.

Well, here I would go with Valich, At times one finds people and sticks to them for the rest of their lives BECAUSE they are good freinds, and the people who are pretentious all the time i.e, back stabbing, stealing et cetra, come and go unless it's agood person turned bad that one still thinks is good.

This is a series of questions for people to answer. This is a question that so far no one I've asked has been able to answer.



This can't be true, you must mean that no one has been able to answer them to your satisfaction, which does not mean the answers are wrong merely you don't accept them as right.



If most emotional expressions are fake, and no one really knows what anyone else is feeling, why do we care so much about emotional display, is it not simply acting?


What makes you think 'most' are fake and most of the time?

Civilisation requires civilised behaviour

and as 'strangers' come into contact daily, (shopper v shop assistant, Dr v patient, passengers sharing seat on train , cabbie and passenger etc) a certain amount of 'masked' behaviour is required.

You call this masked behaviour 'fake', why not call it 'masked' instead. It takes away the negative connotations and instead casts a more realistic view of the interaction taking place and why.

Identifying f'masked' behaviour is possible (unless you are expert at non verbal clues) only after knowing someone for a length of time so that you can differentiate it from their sincere behaviour and their masked behaviour. In which case the masked behaviour is generally obvious.

So why do people mask their feelings?

Imagine a job interview. You walk in and take an immediate dislike to your prospective new employer. Do you tell them? Do you behave with apparrant displeasure at having to shake their hand OR do you do what is constructive and 'mask' your true feelings by behaving in a civil and friendly manner.

To avoid dangers of masked behaviour where it can lead you into strife

When you meet new people, it is productive for positive communications to take them at 'face value' but you do not give need to trust them with anything personal. Hold back until you know them better. Always bear in mind, they may be being insincere. Just as you may be to them.

Finally we can tell what someone is 'really ' feeling. Women are better at this than men. People can be trained to read what are called 'non verbal clues', though we all (excecpt autistics and others with some brain abnormality) have a degree of innate ability to 'read' people.

Which is why we make friends, we gravitate to people who we 'feel' like us and are 'like' us.

This can't be true, you must mean that no one has been able to answer them to your satisfaction, which does not mean the answers are wrong merely you don't accept them as right.




What makes you think 'most' are fake and most of the time?

Civilisation requires civilised behaviour

We are an uncivilized civilization, this means we are only civilized on the surface, we dress nice, we use polite politically correct language, we smile and pretend to be happy even when we are miserable.

and as 'strangers' come into contact daily, (shopper v shop assistant, Dr v patient, passengers sharing seat on train , cabbie and passenger etc) a certain amount of 'masked' behaviour is required.

Yes, but it also happens in personal relationships. Men and women playing their partners, why? Why do people mask their true self even from their best friends, closest family, girlfriend or boyfriend?

You call this masked behaviour 'fake', why not call it 'masked' instead. It takes away the negative connotations and instead casts a more realistic view of the interaction taking place and why.

What's the purpose of the mask to begin with? Why is the mask applied to everyone all the time? As some people don't even know who they are, their mask is so well built that they don't know themselves, who they are, or anything of this sort, they literally have no self or don't know it, they become fake out of habit of wearing different masks for different people.

Identifying f'masked' behaviour is possible (unless you are expert at non verbal clues) only after knowing someone for a length of time so that you can differentiate it from their sincere behaviour and their masked behaviour. In which case the masked behaviour is generally obvious.

What I'm trying to say is there are people who are masked ALL the time, they just switch masks. So when dealing with individual #1, and this is a business oriented person, they wear their money mask, the $, and then when they are playing someone, they wear the love/heart mask, and then when they are trying to be likeable, they wear the friendable/friendly mask. The point is they don't know who they really are, because they have a different personality for each person they deal with. This is the problem with masking, it eventually causes people to lose the core of their being.

So why do people mask their feelings?

The act of masking a feeling does project something, but I'm not going to tell you what, all I can say is, it shows weakness.

Imagine a job interview. You walk in and take an immediate dislike to your prospective new employer. Do you tell them? Do you behave with apparrant displeasure at having to shake their hand OR do you do what is constructive and 'mask' your true feelings by behaving in a civil and friendly manner.

Is it not better to tell someone you dislike them sooner rather than later? Why take the passive aggressive approach? If you mask your feelings, they'll still know you dislike them, only they'll also know you are fake and not take you seriously at all. Also if they have a good read on you, they'll be able to predict your behavior even easier if you keep masking it.

To avoid dangers of masked behaviour where it can lead you into strife

When you meet new people, it is productive for positive communications to take them at 'face value' but you do not give need to trust them with anything personal. Hold back until you know them better. Always bear in mind, they may be being insincere. Just as you may be to them.


Finally we can tell what someone is 'really ' feeling. Women are better at this than men. People can be trained to read what are called 'non verbal clues', though we all (excecpt autistics and others with some brain abnormality) have a degree of innate ability to 'read' people.

Some people have no real cues, and I'm one of those people. I'm unreadable, by men, women, or otherwise unless they know me very well. The point is, you cannot rely on cues, because cues are projections, and some people are consciously aware of what they are projecting, the position they sit, the hand movements, all calculated. Watch a lawyer or politician give a speech, you think those are real cues?

Which is why we make friends, we gravitate to people who we 'feel' like us and are 'like' us.

It's a start for them to have something in common with you, it's the intro phase, it does not guarentee friendship, it does not reveal their character, and masks really only slow down the process further, what could take a matter of weeks with honesty, takes months of years with masking. All I can say is fake behavior complicates the process of getting to know a person, and some people simply arent knoweable at all, period, no matter how much effort you put into it, no matter how many years, you can spend a decade or more on a person and still not know anything important about them, because if you mask, they mask, and neither of you know each other.

TT after readintg numerous of your threads I now conclude you are depressed. Your view of the world is very 'dark'. It's not nearly as dark as you imagine.

And everyone has cues, micro cues are impossible to hide,

you would not know where to begin unless you were expert yourself in reading them. For example do you know what gives a lie away?

TT after readintg numerous of your threads I now conclude you are depressed. Your view of the world is very 'dark'. It's not nearly as dark as you imagine.

And everyone has cues, micro cues are impossible to hide,

you would not know where to begin unless you were expert yourself in reading them. For example do you know what gives a lie away?


I'm absolutely not depressed. I lack faith in humanity, because humanity lacks faith in itself. I know you feel what I'm talking about here. Humanity does not care about itself, so why have faith in a self destructing species to save itself?

Actually, it's likely much darker than I imagine. Like I said, some people are born into child slavery, you werent, but imagine if you were born into this. Imagine if you were like the other 5 billion people on earth, born into a living hell that a billion other people ignorantly gave to you. Would you feel like the world is filled with compassion from that position?

You are very fortunate, you are lucky enough to be in a position where you can afford to be happy, as some people never get to experience happiness their entire life, happineess is truly a luxury, so is knowing good people, so is recieving love and compassion, as there seems to be more children in the world than compassionate parents, and more bullies in the world than motherly types.

So let's see, we have 6 billion people, we have a lot of children, dying as we speak, can you feel the pain of the world? It's not my pain, it's not my depression, it's the consciousness of the world speaking.

People smile a lot day to day, people attempt to be polite, and spend so much time looking good, but very few people spend time doing good work, even if they don't smile while doing it, it's called giving smiles to others.

So don't get me wrong, I'm not some morbid depressed person, I just know how fortunate we are, and most people who are just plain lucky, don't respect the fact that being born at the right time, in the right location, and into the right body, it's just fortune. Do we want a world free of violence? Sure, but it's not going to happen. If we assume the world will stay on the current path, our children will have to be a lot stronger than we were to survive the future, you understand right? I hope so.

I just know how fortunate we are, and most people who are just plain lucky, don't respect the fact that being born at the right time, in the right location, and into the right body, it's just fortune. Do we want a world free of violence? Sure, but it's not going to happen. If we assume the world will stay on the current path, our children will have to be a lot stronger than we were to survive the future, you understand right? I hope so.


We are fortunate indeed, heaven and hell are right here on planet Earth.

Our children will survive their future the same way we survive ours. My present and future is actually a lot less difficult than in my grandmothers day who had two wars to survive.

I don't believe though that humanity has lost faith in itself, not remotely. I certainly have not.

Meanwhile, how can you desire a world free from violence on one hand yet totally condone violence towards children on the other. You can't have it both ways.

We are fortunate indeed, heaven and hell are right here on planet Earth.

Our children will survive their future the same way we survive ours. My present and future is actually a lot less difficult than in my grandmothers day who had two wars to survive.

I don't believe though that humanity has lost faith in itself, not remotely. I certainly have not.

Meanwhile, how can you desire a world free from violence on one hand yet totally condone violence towards children on the other. You can't have it both ways.

I know you are an optimist, and I'm not trying to sound psychic, but I can tell you the future looks very grim, worse than anything your grandparents experienced. It's a fact that there are more people on planet earth than there were when your grand parents were alive. It's a fact that life is getting harder as a result of more people being on the earth, and that misery is at it's highest level ever since humans have been self invented.

I often think outside of myself and my personal feelings. The world makes it's decisions sometimes, and then the world suffers for the result of these human decisions. If humans choose pain, humans feel pain. If humans choose happiness, humans feel happiness. Our world is of our own choosing, and this is why I say violence is here to stay, the world is still organized around violence. Hate is still stronger than love, so until you can show me muscular love, I'm going to continue saying that violent is just how the world is.

The future I see, is so grim that I don't even talk about it usually, but I'll tell you this, we will be lucky if our species survives it. I'm seriously concerned for the fate of the human species itself, along with the fate of the world itself, our technology is moving too fast, fast enough to extinct us, and we have more people than we can take care of. It's about as bad of a situation as you can imagine, and theres more people being born every day into this world that progressively will get more competitive and painful.

TT life is a bitch and then you die. This is a fact. Happiness and unhappiness are relative. There have been horrific things in the past, are in the present and certainly will be in the future.

Humans may well become extinct indeed we may have been nothing more than a flawed experiment or just a particular collection of genes passing through a particular time period. If you look at the age of the earth let alone the universe around us we are but a blip in time. Certainly a human life-time is short; sadly often brutally.

Perhaps something to consider is you and your behaviour. For sure it is extremely hard to change people's attitudes towards you and to some extent their behaviours. However what you can do is become as self aware as possible and 'observe' how you behave towards others and how they react. The only thing you have any hope of influencing is yourself and your own actions. If someone is treating you in a way you find unnacceptable don't accept it! Move away, move on and stay near those who treat you with love and respect.

This too will end. As will all things.

Hate is still stronger than love, so until you can show me muscular love, I'm going to continue saying that violent is just how the world is.

"muscular love": hugs, helping other people, risking your own life to help another.
We are closer to chimps than bonobos. We tend toward violence as a "final" solution. It rarely is, but it is our innate habit.


The future I see, is so grim that I don't even talk about it usually, but I'll tell you this, we will be lucky if our species survives it.
Agreed. IMO, putting effort into "saving the human race" is noble but wasted effort; people are not going to change enough to make a real difference until they are forced to.
As such, I'd rather put my energy into trying to find ways to reduce the suffering that will occur *when* the human population crashes (and then grows, and then crashes, and the grows...until we move on to be the next birds and there are no "humans" that we would recognise left.).

Money once relied on the gold standard, now I'm not even sure where money comes from myself, do you know?

Money supposed to be in circulation comes almost entirely from credit, because the borrower trusts the lender to deem that the money exists while the lender trusts the borrower to pay the interest.

I trust corporations and governments to protect the value of money, thats why money is real. Money is only real because government and corporations make it real.

Money has value because by common consent it is thought to be valuable, because of the trust put into it, the trust that when you take money to a shop the shopkeeper is not going to say "I am not having that; it is nothing but paper and ink". It is therefore valuable because the banks are trusted to manage the supply of it.

Mediate a backstabbing situation? You?
You are such a hypocrite! After all the backstabbing incidents that you intentionally instigated yourself? Just to boost your own ego and fulfill your self-proficized illusions of grandeur, because you think that you are always right and everyone else is wrong? On how many threads have you acted this way. So vainly?
Think of all the times you've backstabbed me! You are living proof that moss grows on a rolling stone.
Hypocrite! Every post that you've ever entered in following something that I stated - even if cited it from another source, which you also always chronically criticize, hypocrite! - has been a backstab! Bar none.Curiously vallich, having read your earlier two posts in this thread I was impressed by how close our viewpoints were. Perhaps I was mistaken.

I have never once backstabbed you. I have directly assualted your persistent pattern of
a) being competely wrong in certain of your 'factual' statements.
b) refusing to admit you are wrong
c) posting volumes of incidental material to cover up the fact that you know fuck all about what you are talking about

And this is ignoring the fact that you have obfuscated and lied about your own qualifactions and life experience. That isn't hypocrticial, it is just unpleasant to observe.

I have never pretended to like your slimy little ass. I have never indicated that you were a soul mate. How you therefore conclude I am a hypocrite by declaring my detestation for you is quite beyond me.

PS: Empathetic not emphatic you stupid ass. If you value education so much I urge you to get one.

thus showing I think as Ophiolite observed that being 'back stabbed' is the illusion of the person feeling it not neccessarily as result of 'intent to back stab' on the part on the other person.

Doesn't the phrase 'back stabbing' indicate something done with deceipt?
I think Oph has been fairly upfront with his stabs. When you have been stabbed in the back you don't normally see it coming.

But Oph do be careful about the women being better at deceiving comment. Very inductive not very scientific.

Women induce. Men protrude.

Women induce. Men protrude.

Women conduce. Men extrude.

Extrude shit.

Extrude shit.

Protrude good.

But Oph do be careful about the women being better at deceiving comment. Very inductive not very scientific.I am fairly certain I said they were better at detecting deception than men. This is backed up by research and certainly matches my own observations over several decades.

Backstabbing may or may not be "deceitful." You can be up front and forward with another person, being as nice as you can, yet unexpectedly be very hurt, dismayed and damaged by that other person. Ironically, this is something that I've experienced a lot on Sciforum, especially when I first began posting - just trying to learn. Even when my postings were/are substantiated with cited quotations from credible sources, the other person - a few in particular - would attack ME rather than the source that I was quoting and had cited correctly as a quote!

Too many friends? How can a person have too many friends? Too litlte time you have, not too many friends. Maybe you should change your priorities or start a family reunion ritual.
Yes, I have too many friends because they demand too much of my time that I do not have, and time that I would rather spend on learning more-and-more. They say that after the Rennaissance transition - a period of vigorous and rigorous intellectual learning - it is now no longer possible for one person to know and learn all there was to know as was the case before the Rennaissance. Still, I would like to have enough time to try. I enjoy following some of the threads and posting on Sciforum mainly as an entertaining distraction from studying' but also to learn, depending on the thread.

My extended family is spread out all across the globe, making family reunions impractical. Still, why do you suggest this? This would only take up more time?

Obviously there must be people good at being fake, otherwise we wouldnt have a fake world. We live in a world where everyone says they care about the children, but in the same world, billions of people needlessly suffer.
I don't know what type of world you live in, but I do not live in a "fake world." My world is very much real. I've seen life as well as death; I've seem full fat people, as well as starving skin-and-bone children and adults; I've seen happiness, and I've seen sorrow to the point of heart-breaking death; I've had an M-16 shoved in my face by guerillas in Guatemala after the four nuns were shot to death in El Salvador (1984? forget); I've seen a man die of hunger in the center of a city food market, covered with flies, scales, blackened skin and death; I was in Tiananmen, unfortunately not when the tanks rolled in, but arrived as they rolled out, giving the people some well-needed encouragement that the Americans had not totally forsaken them, and defying the soldiers marching through the streets; I've had shots fired over my head; my mother died a horrific, excrutiating painful death from metastasized cancer that eventually spread to her brain, thus struggling to keep my father focussed and keep coherency within our relatives and friends as well as with my own demeanor (my mother Dotty Masek was a world-class accordian musician that became famous by accompanying other famous actors when entertaining the troops during WWII as a member of the USO) - and yes, a person can die from a broken heart.

I believe that my world is very much real. Had I ever thought otherwise, I'd be as dead as the people that I've seen die.

I think what I've stated above adequately answers the rest of your reply?

Respect.

Backstabbing is the result of looking only in one direction.

I am fairly certain I said they were better at detecting deception than men. This is backed up by research and certainly matches my own observations over several decades.

My apols my misinterpretation. I thought you said women were better at faking it/lying than men which is altogether different. ;)

[QUOTE=valich;1173902]
I've seen life as well as death; I've seem full fat people, as well as starving skin-and-bone children and adults; I've seen happiness, and I've seen sorrow to the point of heart-breaking death; I've had an M-16 shoved in my face by guerillas in Guatemala after the four nuns were shot to death in El Salvador (1984? forget); I've seen a man die of hunger in the center of a city food market, covered with flies, scales, blackened skin and death; I was in Tiananmen, unfortunately not when the tanks rolled in, but arrived as they rolled out, giving the people some well-needed encouragement that the Americans had not totally forsaken them, and defying the soldiers marching through the streets; I've had shots fired over my head; QUOTE]

Forest Gump?
Impossible to learn all there is to know and why would you want to? Learning can be about yourself (the most important kind), other people, as well as the intellectual stuff. Those who know 'an awful lot' tend to be insufferable bores. Learning for learning sake useless unless you can make it useful by sharing it.:cool:

Backstabbing may or may not be "deceitful." You can be up front and forward with another person, being as nice as you can, yet unexpectedly be very hurt, dismayed and damaged by that other person. Ironically, this is something that I've experienced a lot on Sciforum, especially when I first began posting - just trying to learn. Even when my postings were/are substantiated with cited quotations from credible sources, the other person - a few in particular - would attack ME rather than the source that I was quoting and had cited correctly as a quote!


Yes, I have too many friends because they demand too much of my time that I do not have, and time that I would rather spend on learning more-and-more.

You are your friends sir. What else is there?

They say that after the Rennaissance transition - a period of vigorous and rigorous intellectual learning - it is now no longer possible for one person to know and learn all there was to know as was the case before the Rennaissance. Still, I would like to have enough time to try. I enjoy following some of the threads and posting on Sciforum mainly as an entertaining distraction from studying' but also to learn, depending on the thread.

My extended family is spread out all across the globe, making family reunions impractical. Still, why do you suggest this? This would only take up more time?


I don't know what type of world you live in, but I do not live in a "fake world." My world is very much real. I've seen life as well as death; I've seem full fat people, as well as starving skin-and-bone children and adults; I've seen happiness, and I've seen sorrow to the point of heart-breaking death; I've had an M-16 shoved in my face by guerillas in Guatemala after the four nuns were shot to death in El Salvador (1984? forget); I've seen a man die of hunger in the center of a city food market, covered with flies, scales, blackened skin and death; I was in Tiananmen, unfortunately not when the tanks rolled in, but arrived as they rolled out, giving the people some well-needed encouragement that the Americans had not totally forsaken them, and defying the soldiers marching through the streets; I've had shots fired over my head; my mother died a horrific, excrutiating painful death from metastasized cancer that eventually spread to her brain, thus struggling to keep my father focussed and keep coherency within our relatives and friends as well as with my own demeanor (my mother Dotty Masek was a world-class accordian musician that became famous by accompanying other famous actors when entertaining the troops during WWII as a member of the USO) - and yes, a person can die from a broken heart.



I believe that my world is very much real. Had I ever thought otherwise, I'd be as dead as the people that I've seen die.

I think what I've stated above adequately answers the rest of your reply?


So why do emotions matter again?

Backstabbing may or may not be "deceitful." You can be up front and forward with another person, being as nice as you can, yet unexpectedly be very hurt, dismayed and damaged by that other person. Ironically, this is something that I've experienced a lot on Sciforum, especially when I first began posting - just trying to learn. Even when my postings were/are substantiated with cited quotations from credible sources, the other person - a few in particular - would attack ME rather than the source that I was quoting and had cited correctly as a quote! No vallich. We attacked your self righteous refusal to recognise that you did not understand the evidence; that the material you were posting was either irrelevant, or wholly misinterpreted by you; that you refused to engage in dialogue; that you claimed great educational achievements without consistency.
In short, you were an utter prat. This, you may recall occured after I had defended one of your earliers posts, attributing your inane rantings to boyish enthusiasm.
You claim you were "unexpectedly ...very hurt, dismayed and damaged" by what was written. I do hope I can claim a portion of the credit for that small achievement. It does seem to have knocked some sense into you. Your posts since have been more measured, accurate and relevant. Well done kid.

[QUOTE=valich;1173902]Forest Gump?
Impossible to learn all there is to know and why would you want to? Learning can be about yourself (the most important kind), other people, as well as the intellectual stuff. Those who know 'an awful lot' tend to be insufferable bores. Learning for learning sake useless unless you can make it useful by sharing it.:cool:

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I AM sharing what I have learned?

If most emotional expressions are fake, what is the purpose of emotional expression?

...doesn't mean all emotional expressions are fake though...

Let's just prise this one open - I kind of see what you're getting at... In this situation we might be hypocrites and contradict ourselves with one another in order to keep the peace. And it is mostly an instictive and advantageous quality within us humans.
Say if someone's smiling at you - you'll smile back. You might not know they're attracted to you as it's an ambiguous facial expression. And perhaps, you're not even interested in them - doesn't mean they need to know this...
Say if someone's insulting, you might not tell them that they're insulting - especially if they're mentally unstable - ethically, you'll calm them down, although it isn't necessarily advantageous to us to point this out to them. Most of the work has to be done in those that are being insulting themselves. As only when it's realised in themselves, can they become more proactive socially. IMO it is a functional etiquette and serves to bring balance to our human unity (emotional/social union). Furthermore, emotional expressions on a whole are quite ambiguous - so we tend to communicate a reply that is least offensive...:) :confused: :rolleyes:

If you review all the posts above, most expressions are not fake. Whoever is saying this is a "fake" phony person - this is where they are coming from, and these are the kind of people that they associate with to get this habit.

Most expressions are genuine, unless that one person is a damn good actor.

My close friends do not express any fake emotions. So I don't know where these other people are coming from. As I said, time-and-time again above, if this is how your friends come across to you, then it's time to find new friends - real people.

...huhhhh Valich, Valich, Valich... when are you gonna stop being hostile in your answering... I think in the context of what I was saying earlier - expression may act to suppress our true emotion - but thereafter, what logic that acts from this emotion triggered, we shouldn't address dishonestly to the offencive. No one's being fake there - just the facial expressions. You do it - I do it - we all do it. And we don't know we're doing it. All in the just cause of empathy. Valich? Will it be:D or will it be:( ? ...if I know you as well as I think I do, you'll probably double bluff and go with:(

My close friends do not express any fake emotions. So I don't know where these other people are coming from.

Perhaps you don't - there are direct people and there are indirect people (subtle people). You could be the direct (black and white) type. "Bomph!" "Swash!" "Plurrlath!" like a colliding train with "f*ck off" written across it's front when you see someone you're trying to avoid ...and so on... Also - perhaps you're extremely lucky that your close friends speak your language or maybe they do express fake emotional facial expressions... Pah! Anyway... I'm just flushing the toilet on this issue now - Ahh! Alpine Fresh.

Yeah, maybe a lot the people out there mask their emotions and lie and want to fuck you over... so thats the way it is. I dont particularly care what someone is feeling at a glance. Im not particularly interested in projecting my emotions in a way that other people can clearly know what Im feeling. There are lots of ways to know if people are shady or not.. many of them have been mentioned here already. Look into psycholinguistics. There arent many people percentage wise that understand the psychology of the spoken language well enough to be decietful and not give it away here and there. Then there are people who are pros at it.. and no matter what you do or think theyll fuck you over. That happens. You dont have make it a big issue. Ive been fucked over time and time and time again, by every sort of person Ive come into know in my life, which isnt saying that everyone ive met has screwed me over somehow. Its just been a persistant trend in my life. At this point I am very skilled at determining who the shady people are. I avoid them. Still I get burned but Ive learned to not get emotionally bent over it. So you get screwed by someone. You learned the lesson of that person. Consider it payment for learning a valuable lesson. Just about anything short of someone taking your life can be released far easier than it was gained anyways. Its an exersize in detachment. Its a study of life and people. Ive learned a lot from my losses. Ive become strong from being stabbed in the back, Ive learned how to minimize or avoid a lot of that damage.

So was there some problem in your question?? Ill have to go back and look.

AH yeah. Why do we display fake emotions. Like I said above, Im not so involved in that practice.. which isnt to say I dont do that. I dont do that to manipulate people really, but I might act sort of cheerful when Im not, I might act calm when Im pissed off.. Its no ones business how I feel unless I decide I want them to know. Then I make it clear. We display fake emotions for convenience sake at its most innocent, at the worst maybe, we do it to screw people over. Sometimes we do it just because we are troubled by how were feeling, the fact that we have so little controll over it and how we wear it around, and wed rather we werent such an open book, and so try to close it somehow. Emotions follow or are attached to thoughts. In truth we chose our thoughts. Thoughts though, are without substance, even less so of substance are the emotions that follow. Wed rather control them, but most dont know how to even begin, a lot of people say it cant be done. It can be done. Learn to get a grip on your thoughts so you chose your thoughts consciously and then you will be as honest a being as anyone can hope for. Whether youre evil or good.

AH yeah. Why do we display fake emotions. Like I said above, Im not so involved in that practice.. which isnt to say I dont do that. I dont do that to manipulate people really, but I might act sort of cheerful when Im not, I might act calm when Im pissed off.. Its no ones business how I feel unless I decide I want them to know. Then I make it clear. We display fake emotions for convenience sake at its most innocent, at the worst maybe, we do it to screw people over. Sometimes we do it just because we are troubled by how were feeling, the fact that we have so little controll over it and how we wear it around, and wed rather we werent such an open book, and so try to close it somehow. Emotions follow or are attached to thoughts. In truth we chose our thoughts. Thoughts though, are without substance, even less so of substance are the emotions that follow. Wed rather control them, but most dont know how to even begin, a lot of people say it cant be done. It can be done. Learn to get a grip on your thoughts so you chose your thoughts consciously and then you will be as honest a being as anyone can hope for. Whether youre evil or good.

Fake emotions, visual arts.

By the way, we don't choose our thoughts, our subconscious chooses our thoughts, through suggestions from others. Want an example?

Let an attractive woman walk by you, wearing minimal clothing, and whisper something sexy into your ear, in a matter of moments you'll be thinking about sex.

Thoughts work like that, if you say "SEX", even the word alone can trigger thoughts. Of course this does not always seem to be the case, but it's just a primitive example.

Most people only control their actions, not their thoughts, we all think of evil or sick shit all the time, but decide right and wrong before we act, not after.

So while you can think of cruel shit, and acting like a wild animal, it does not mean you'd ever be able to do it, just because either your conscience won't allow you to, or because you know how stupid it would be.

Perhaps I should say that we can choose our thoughts. For the most part peoples minds are constantly awash with thought habits, thought reflexes, and other random thoughts. One can learn to minimize those kinds of thoughts. One can learn to keep their mind relatively still, at least to the point of remaining focused on a single thought of their choice. Only really disturbing or otherwise powerful stimulation from the outside world puts me in a mental state, filled with certain thoughts and emotions, that I feel unable to subvert or replace. But Im only a casual practitioner of a method for learning to have some real awareness and control of ones thoughts, of 20 years. There are people who take it a lot more seriously than I do, and I imagine their level of self mastery is far beyond my own. I realize that for someone who has never learned to work with their thoughts at all, that what Im talking about seems false, or even impossible. But a person like that couldnt know better without trying some well known effective ways to approach the mind, to see whats up. Cognative therapy is one example. Zen practice or zazen is another.

My apologies for going off topic here. Ill stop now. heh Peace

Most biologists today tend to emphasize evolution as being chemical evolution. In other words, in relation to this thread, our body's metabolism has a major influence on how our thoughts are produced, or "choosen." For example, we don't "choose" to think that we are now hungry, or to feel pain when we are hurt. Other thoughts we may "think about," sort them through, "consciously" decide which ones are more important than others, and then consciously choose to focus our thoughts on one or the other. In short, some of our thoughts we consciously choose; others we have no control over.