************* M*W: Having researched Moses' Egyptian heritage and Abraham's journey out of Egypt to the Ur of the Chaldees, how did they impact a religion called Judaism? And, what if Moses and Abraham are merely myths as some say, what does that make Judaism and later Christianity? It's widely known that the dying demigod savior, Jesus, was just a myth of a myth of a myth, so where does that leave Judaism and Christianity? If Paul preached Christianity, when Paul never knew Jesus, where does this impact Christianity? If Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian, where does this leave Christianity? If the virgin birth is an oxymoron, where does that leave all young women having their first baby? If Jesus was God, and not just a rabbi, there would be no need for Christianity -- Jesus would have been the Jewish Messiah -- but he wasn't. They're still waiting. If the Sumerians were a myth, and the Babylonians were a myth, and the Mesopotamians were a myth, and the Mithras were a myth, and the Egyptians were a myth, and the Hebrews were a myth, and Christianity was based on these myths, what is the truth? Does humankind simply need to believe the myth to survive? If there is no god, there can be no savior. Then why would humankind need to create their own savior? Comments, please.
Good questions, many of which christians have never considered or decided to ignore. I just hate the sower in this parable. Why sow the seeds to the roadside and to the thorns? He could have painstakingly put each seed in an environment best for its growth. Obviously, this sower just doesn't care.
well Biblical history will give youa lot of funny answers. i dont know much about this hosotry but if Abraham did not exsist, then who are the hundreds of millions of Arabs and Jews as they are DIRECTLY descended from Abraham??
Abram was from Ur, which is Babalonia (sp?) Moses was a hebrew, who were the people that came from the lands around Cannan, like right next Meso-area Paul used to kill christians and jews...he was shown a vision from God, thats when god changed his name, from something to paul. Paul preached from there forth. Christianity is about Christ. How could Jesus be something that doesnt exist till after his death. Of course he was a jew, it was the gentiles that called the apposiles Christians, which means in english "little christs" Truth is what is...as God told Job, he is the "I am" which would basicly mean that truth is beyond our "normal" comprehention. Basic truths are known, but more deep ones i believe have yet to be fully understood. People like to believe something. Hope is a good thing... I do not have a "good" anwser for that last question, so i wont try.
Preacher_X: well Biblical history will give youa lot of funny answers. i dont know much about this hosotry but if Abraham did not exsist, then who are the hundreds of millions of Arabs and Jews as they are DIRECTLY descended from Abraham?? ************* M*W: I'm not implying that I believe Abraham or Moses didn't exist. That was a question that was entertained in something I read recently about Moses and Abraham. However, now that I think about its possibility, what if, just what if, Abraham never existed and there was no division between Arabs and Jews? The point I was trying to make in my original post is that if all these ancient biblical characters were simply myths, exactly why is it and what is it that we should be believing in their non-existence?
camphlps: Abram was from Ur, which is Babalonia (sp?) ************* M*W: Interestingly, the word for "Hebrew" in the Hebrew language is 'Ibri.' Scholars think 'Ibri' means 'cross' as they 'crossed' the deserts as nomads. Which then brings us to the crucifix. Could the 'crucifix' simply mean 'Ibri' or 'Hebrew'? Even the name 'Abram' or 'Ibrim' means 'those who cross.' 'Ibri' is one Hebrew and 'Ibrim' is plural meaning 'Hebrews.' So, my question is, the singular person 'Abram' was changed to the multiple persons 'Abraham' (as is the same case 'Ibri' and 'Ibrahim'). Muslims and Jews, help me here! The name is a description and not a person/peoples given name. So, was there such a person as Abraham or Ibrahim? Or, was it just an expression to relate a story about how these ancient Semites crossed the desert? ************* camphlps: Moses was a hebrew, who were the people that came from the lands around Cannan, like right next Meso-area ************* M*W: It's long been proven that Moses was Egyptian. The name 'Moses' isn't a Hebrew name, it's Egyptian. During the years of WWII, Sigmund Freud (Jewish psychoanalyst) studied and published a book called Moses and Monotheism, 1937. In this book he explained Moses' heritage was simply a name 'mos' meaning 'child.' Its source was Egyptian. He also showed that the birth of Moses was a replica of earlier myths about the birth of ancient heroes in history. The myth of Moses being an Hebrew is the reverse myth that the bible teaches. He was Egyptian. Then why would Moses, the Jewish law-maker, make Jewish laws if he were Egyptian? The bible doesn't explain that. Freud believed Moses to have been murdered by his own people. ************* camphlps: Paul used to kill christians and jews...he was shown a vision from God, thats when god changed his name, from something to paul. Paul preached from there forth. ************* M*W: Paul was an evil man. The vision he had was an epileptic seizure. He fell off his horse and hit his head on a rock. Seeing bright lights and hearing voices is not uncommon during epileptic seizures. God didn't change Saul of Tarsus' name, Paul changed his own name to kiss up to the Gentile pagans. What Paul preached was not Christianity. Paul preached Paulianity. ************* camphlps: Christianity is about Christ. How could Jesus be something that doesnt exist till after his death. Of course he was a jew, it was the gentiles that called the apposiles Christians, which means in english "little christs" ************* M*W: Christianity is NOT about Christ. It's about Paul. You're right. Jesus was a Jew, and a rabbi -- a learned man. Jesus didn't preach about being a dying demigod savior. Jesus allegedly preached about peace in a war torn land. ************* camphlps: Truth is what is...as God told Job, he is the "I am" which would basicly mean that truth is beyond our "normal" comprehention. Basic truths are known, but more deep ones i believe have yet to be fully understood. ************* M*W: Truth is relative to the believer. There are many who believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and there are more people who know Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Three-quarters of the world know Jesus wasn't the Messiah. More truths will be revealed about Christianity as time goes on. Jesus wasn't the first to be believed to be the only dying demigod savior. There are more than 16 earlier dying demigod saviors and up to 25 earlier gods who were born of virgins. ************* camphlps: People like to believe something. Hope is a good thing... ************* M*W: That depends on what people believe in. Some people believe in Santa Claus; some people believe in the Easter Bunny or the tooth fairy. Hope is a good thing -- but believing in lies bring no hope to the believer. ************* camphlps: I do not have a "good" anwser for that last question, so i wont try. ************* M*W: I understand, I truly understand.
Assuming either of these worthies existed, they are part of the ancient history of Judaism. But Judaism as the coherent religion we know today did not exist back then. Since Abraham is the chief of the Patriarchs and Moses the first folk hero, they impact hugely and the fact that they may have been considered Egyptians does not really make any difference to it. I don't see that it makes them anything that they aren't already, ie concentrations of social cohesion with moral codes built in. The stories they tell to import their message does not differ if those stories are myths or not. You would be better saying something like, "Large parts of society reject certain things which in biblical days were regarded as moral absolutes, such as the acceptance of slavery, intolerance of foreigners and outsiders, the abomination of homosexuality. Since these outdated concepts are enshrined within the commonly accepted "holy books", where does that leave Judaism and Christianity?" That is a belief, and I'm not sure how widely held it is. As an atheist I find it impossible to disbelieve in a historical Jesus and to accept that as a real human being he clearly had an effect on the people around him. Paul created Christianity and he was certainly Christianity's earliest truly deep theological thinker. Without Paul it would have remained a sub-sect of Judaism and might well no longer exist today. So take Paul out of the equation you certainly have a huge impact on Christianity. Conversely the fact that Paul never met him (outside his personal vision on the Road to Damascus) does not really impact on Christianity at all. It leaves it as it has been for two thousand years, a daughter religion of Judaism, sharing a large amount of the original holy scripture, but little of the theology. I can't say I understand this question at all. What has the one virgin or non-virgin birth impact on any young woman having their first baby? The Messiah the Jews have been waiting for was a literal deliverer from a literal bondage, to be their king over an independent Jewish nation. Jesus, son of God or not, did not fit that definition of a Messiah. That there is a certain contradiction in waiting for a Messiah, yet having a law which prohibits calling yourself a Messiah, as blasphemy is a problem which exists for both Judaism and Christianity to this day. I was taught as a child that we were waiting for the Second Coming of Christ, but as I grew older I realised that nobody who claimed to be Jesus would be believed by the vast majority of humanity. I wouldn't believe such a person! Well, none of those peoples were mythical, but they provided the myths. But Christianity is not based on mythology (nor is Judaism), it is based on theology, which is the philosophical attempt to understand humanity's relationship with God. Of course not, in fact as is becoming increasingly evident that it is continued belief in myths that could well spell Humanity's destruction. Humanity is the only animal that knows it faces a sure and certain death. Salvation from that is a seductive (and for many overpowering) idea.
mostly because these are so weak, why bother? that's like farmers used to do, what did you think? that they had an individual seeder on a International Harvester back then? actually, this is a good way to look at the true spread of the Gospel, it was passed out to the masses, then its up to us to accept, reject or live luke-warm, just like the parable, either way, its your choice
as usual, you have it backwards, Abraham came from Ur of the Chaldees, lived in Syria, Palestine & Egypt too. Moses was born in Egypt of Hebrew parents, where do you get the 'heritage' part? who says? give us the facts? the links? or did you make it up again? by whom? I think you are a myth of a myth of a demi-fanatical anti-christian believer in myths Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus born a jew, lived a jew, died for humanity, resurrected for humanity, accepted by Christians as true you-ho, MW, its called a miracle, if the God of the Univerrse wants to do something, what makes you think He is bound by the rules of the Universe that He created? just how oxymoron are you? let Jews answer that for themselves, still getting converts "Jews for Jesus" all them myths? Mesopotamians are a regional people, not a myth. Mesopotamia is a region, where Iraq, Syria, Kuwait are at. lets say you are from Texas, That would make you a southwesterner, then using your logic, saying that you came from a myth. where did you get these so-called facts? read more historical stuff, not all the anti-stuff, its so biased, it even has historical events wrong, if your reporting is accurate of what you read?
* Having researched Moses' Egyptian heritage and Abraham's journey out of Egypt to the Ur of the Chaldees, how did they impact a religion called Judaism? Silas gave a good response to this, but I would like to add to it, somewhat. Aside from the historical connection that these figures (actual or mythical) held with the Egyptians, there is also a large section of Judaic thought (as well as christian, though a number of these ideas are beginning to fade as understanding increases) that is derived from Egyptian mythologies. One example concerns the idae of God as Judge. Many people in the past (and even a number today) believe that when you die God will be waiting for you with a scale to measure out all the good and bad deeds of your life, which will determine how you will live eternity. This idea comes from the Egyptian mythologies, which contain a god of the dead who performs this very function. There are a great number of concepts in Judaism and Christianity, similar to this one, that share commonality with Egyptian mythology. The effect it would have would be minimal, since many concepts in Egyptian mythology are already found (though altered over time) in Christianty. What WOULD have effect is telling people about it. This would both bring a new understanding to Christian thought, as well as clarify its validity or invalidity, and bring a more mature perspective of the reality. Back to the example I gave, that is a common belief held by the unphilosophical, and untheological. Those who take the time to study such things understand that this would not be how God would work, but rather, the judgement made in death would simply be a recognition of the state of the soul, and the choice made by the individual, rather than an active condemnation or rewarding by God. * And, what if Moses and Abraham are merely myths as some say, what does that make Judaism and later Christianity? If they were myths, then, as most myths held historically, it is probably based very much in reality. The fact that such names as Abraham, or Moses are more than merely names, indicates that those (at least in the era of their telling) would have understood the meaning of those stories in their truest sense, and so the religion that grew around these stories would have been based on the true meaning of them. Because those stories were written and then translated into other languages, much of the meaning of those stories were lost, and only certain aspects focused upon. For example, the cain and abel storie isn't really about two brothers. It's actually about brother sins, that is, two common wickednesses that arise together. The literal meaning of Abel ('b'l in Old Hebrew) is "vanity" (as well as "nothingness," "air"). The Tower of Babel shares this root word, as well as Babylon. Cain (and I've read different heard different meanings) means "jealousy." A truer meaning of the story of Cain and Abel is that after the fall of mankind, these two evils were born within the heart of man. Often times in life, it seems that the vain are the ones that are blessed by God (in Old Testament thought, material wealth was considered a blessing by God, and poverty was considered a curse) by wealth and beauty, etc... With vanity, also comes those who are jealous. As the story illustrates, jealousy can lead to terrible crimes. Such meaning would have been understood by those of the original language, but have been lost in transliteration. As these stories become clearer in this the "Information Age," alot of misconceptions are being done away with. The difficulty is that many people are wary of anything that opposes their beliefs, and it is difficult to both convey the real meaning, and its impact on Christian belief. * It's widely known that the dying demigod savior, Jesus, was just a myth of a myth of a myth, so where does that leave Judaism and Christianity? Right now, it is accepted that the story of Jesus has MANY similarities with other myths, both in Judaic scriptures and from other religions. However, what is not clear is whether Jesus Himself was a myth, or otherwise. Something definitely happened around the period of 0 BC/AD that affected a very large movement, which became known as Christianity. What that was is up for debate. I think, though, that it really has little impact on the teachings (at least morally speaking) of Christianity (or at least Catholocism... I know many Christians would say that belief is all one must have, but Catholocism teaches good living as a definite moral base). * If Paul preached Christianity, when Paul never knew Jesus, where does this impact Christianity? It is widely accepted that Paul never met Jesus (I assume this is what you mean by "know), and so probably wouldn't really affect the teachings of Christianity very much. It is well known that Paul was a killer of Christians for a time. How Paul came to change is way of acting, is a matter of debate, though it is told that he had a vision of God. A vision can be as simple as a realization, an actualization of a reality in one's own mind. Perhaps Paul has been moved for quite some time by the willingness of the early Christians to hold their beliefs even in the face of death. Perhaps he had heard some teaching spoken by a Christian, and in his travels (which, in those days, provided much thinking time) came to a realization of some truth within the early Christian faith. Obviously one doesn't come to a full understanding of any given religious idea, or philosophical thought in a single moment, it is a given that he, most likely, went to Christians to learn their beliefs. Probably, he likened it to those beliefs he already held, and had discussions with one or more of the Apostles, who either confirmed or denied, or considered the extent of his beliefs as being Christian. I find it unlikely that all of the Christian movement of the time would have been convinced by Paul, when so many had already learned much from Peter, and the other apostles, as well as a number of disciples of Jesus, if his teachings were not true to early Christian thought. * If Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian, where does this leave Christianity? The early Christians were considered as a form of Judaism (rebellious albeit), and sometime later became known as Christians (followers of the teachings of Christ). In other words, early Christians would have considered themselves followers of the true teachings of Judaism, and would have considered the Judaic teachings of the time as faulty in light of a better understanding of OT ideas. It is well known by Christians that Jesus was a Jew, he honored Jewish laws, this is shown quite well in the NT. He even said (I believe) that He came "not to undue the Law, but to fulfill it." * If the virgin birth is an oxymoron, where does that leave all young women having their first baby? Again, Silas answered this one well, I don't feel a need to comment on it. * If Jesus was God, and not just a rabbi, there would be no need for Christianity -- Jesus would have been the Jewish Messiah -- but he wasn't. They're still waiting. And again, Silas answered this one well. It isn't that Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah (He indicated, along with the writers of the NT, how He fulfilled the prophesies of the OT), rather, it's just that the Jewsih belief is in a political leader, savior, rather than a spiritual one. There are actually still a number of Jews today that come to believe in Jesus as the Messiah. * If the Sumerians were a myth, and the Babylonians were a myth, and the Mesopotamians were a myth, and the Mithras were a myth, and the Egyptians were a myth, and the Hebrews were a myth, and Christianity was based on these myths, what is the truth? While Silas answered this one well, once again, I would also like to add response of a different kind. Myths themselves come out of legends, and legends come out of actual events. How much the myth actually resembles any historical event which they might be based upon is a simply a matter of chance. Each myth emphasizes a specific aspect of any given story, and therefore it is up to the reader to understand that aspect in relation to both the entire story being told, as well as his own life. Furthermore, it is also a matter of understanding the exaggerations or emphases, and what other important aspects of the story exist, and what they mean in relation to reality. * Does humankind simply need to believe the myth to survive? No, myths usually aren't about survival. Neither is the story of Jesus. Such stories are usually about happiness, and how it is to be achieved, and how unhappiness is to be avoided (i.e., the Cain and Abel story). * If there is no god, there can be no savior. Then why would humankind need to create their own savior? While Silas' answer seems to be on track, it ignores that Christianity teaches that whether saved or otherwise, there is be no destruction of the soul, and EVERYONE will be raised from the dead, not just those who are saved. No, it isn't an escape from death that humans require, it's an escape from unhappiness. This is especially seen by those Christians who believe that all that is required in this life is belief, since then even the pain of guilt is removed. This is also the motivation of Buddhism, and a great many of the world religions. It isn't about escape from death, it's about escape from unhappiness, or the persuit of happiness.
Yes Moses is a Egyptian name. That is because he was raised by pharoah's daughter. You asked the name of abram. Abram is "Father". God had him change his name to Abraham, which is "Father of Many". Ironic cause Issac wasnt born yet. But thats the name part you pointed out previously. other than that, your right medicine woman Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
************* M*W: Thank you for your reply. You obviously know your stuff. I especially liked your analogy of Cain and Abel. Makes sense to me, and it was appreciated.
