For one moment can you guys pretend that god doesn't exist but humans don't know that yet. Where then would religion have come from?

If some humans were told that god didn't exist, how would they go about telling this to the other people? Shouldn't the other people know the truth? Or should they be left alone to worship a god that doesn't exist?

Remember this is a What If question...


------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Chaos,

But if any kind of God didn't exist, how would we know? WHO would tell us? And how would we be convinced??

I think anyone trying to tell Lori (just as an example) that God doesn't exist is about the same as someone trying to tell you that God DOES exist. See what I mean? There ARE people right now (like you) who believe God doesn't exist. How would YOU go about telling people there was no God, how would you convince anyone??

I think if God didn't exist things would be about the same. What would be the point in convincing people of the "Truth"? If there is no God, there surely isn't any harm in worshipping him, especially if that worship improves the quality of people's lives, motivates them to help others, etc.

Chaos,

Um...don't you think that you are the one who should be answering these hypothetical questions, you know, since you're the one who hypothetically doesn't believe in God? It's a damn good question, so answer it yourself...if God doesn't exist, then where did all of this "religion" come from? How do you prove that God doesn't exist? After all, if you could do that, you could shut me up huh? :D

You know, that's actually how I got religion, or how I started thinking about it anyway. I decided that even though my education and partying and money grubbing and sexual escapades were entertaining and all, that the question of whether God was for real or not was too important not to try to figure out. So I figured, if I say that there is no God, then I would have to claim to know more than every single religious person of any faith out there that every existed. You know, you think about how many people have absolutely dedicated their lives to their respective faiths. Inside and outside of organized religions even. To claim that you know better than the majority of the human beings that have ever walked this earth is quite a stretch, don't you think? Do you really even think that you understand most of the major religions well enough to even make a judgement call on it? How much time have you really put into this? Put in the time. But remember what I said....have some humility...have an OPEN mind...be sincere. Think about it...what are the odds of you having the answers to the questions of the universe? Nil, that's what. So let go of your ego, and seek the truth.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited July 25, 2000).]

Okay I will answer it, but if you guys would sit down and hypothetically think this out you would come to the same conclusion as me.

We created religion. Why? We needed a basis for truth and moral character. How would we go about changing beliefs? Science.

Think about science's impact on religion. Science can't "reinforce" your beliefs in god when it completely contradicts your religion.

If you disagree with my hypothetical response, then answer my question hypothetically for yourself! Doing so won't hurt your faith will it?

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

[This message has been edited by Formerly Chaos (edited July 25, 2000).]

Chaos,

"Think about science's impact on religion. Science can't "reinforce" your beliefs in god when it completely contradicts your religion."

Hm, guess I'm just lucky then that science doesn't contradict MY religion. Fancy that.

Science doesn't contradict my faith either...I have no idea what he's referring to. Chaos, what are you referring to exactly? As I see it, science tells you how, and faith tells you why. They are not mutually exclusive. I fail to see where you're getting this perspective. Wouldn't you have to admit that you don't know enough about faith or any religion of any kind to even know if scientific information contradicts it or not??????? Well, as far as Christianity goes and Jesus and the Bible, it all jives, so I don't know what you're talking about.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Nor is faith mutually exclusive to religion either, Lori. I am not religious, but have faith. Not in a omnipotent entity, but in the world. In my humble opinion, there isn't one all powerful being, but I believe there are advanced races (there's them pesky aliens again) which could have been mistaken as gods two millenia past.
I guess what I am trying to say is that you can have one without the other.

H

If science doesn't contradict your religion then what does? If god isn't real then there must be a point when your faith can be proven wrong.

Lets say I had faith that we will discover an alien race somewhere in space. Will we have to travel to every planet in the universe to prove it wrong? Or can we prove aliens don't exist through science? Basically your saying that faith in god can't be disproven unless we can put a collar on god?

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Well, different religions contradict eachother, so perhaps one God could disprove another...

Otherwise, no, I don't think there is a way to disprove God.

My God can kick your Gods ass

Why does it have to be a god, per se? If you need something tangible, why not a tree, or a beer bottle ( and for me it's usually the porcelin god after worshipping a few to many beer deities :D )or anything that will satisfy your particular idea of a god like idol.
It's not the material, it's the heart and mind and above all the belief (faith if you will) That's what matters.
Chaos, do you mean to tell all of us here on this forum that there is nothing that you believe in?

Chaos,

Let's say that my God is real, if so then there isn't a point where my faith can be proven wrong. There are points where doubt can be injected in, but that's about the weakest point, my own humanity.

I'm very interested in what your "christian" family is like though if you can't accept what you've grown up with. What "lenses" are you looking through?

Keep smiling kid! :)

Let's say that my God is real,


Prove it!

Chaos,

To answer your question...there is nothing that is known to be true, or proven, that contradicts my faith. As a matter of fact, the opposite is true...that everything that is known or proven, supports my faith. Hence, my faith.

Heathen,

Black & tan's rule. Don't ya think?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

If there is no way to disprove god, then why are we here in a religious debate forum?

Lori, so basically what your saying is all people who believe in god go to the right, everyone else go to the left.

Whats the point of debate if we've already taken sides, and both sides have nothing against each other... but the "lack" of proof.

I have proof against religion and god which you guys wont' take into consideration because your so damn fat headed. Listen to me this time:

We created religion because we needed a basis of truth and moral character. When you take religious diversity and then look at the fact that religions have died in the past. That is enough evidence to suggest that previous gods were false, therefore the current god(s) are false.

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

If there is no way to disprove god, then why are we here in a religious debate forum?

Lori, so basically what your saying is all people who believe in god go to the right, everyone else go to the left.

Whats the point of debate if we've already taken sides, and both sides have nothing against each other... but the "lack" of proof.

I have proof against religion and god which you guys wont' take into consideration because your so damn fat headed. Listen to me this time:

We created religion because we needed a basis of truth and moral character. When you take religious diversity and then look at the fact that religions have died in the past. That is enough evidence to suggest that previous gods were false, therefore the current god(s) are false.

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Lori ~
I'm a big fan of the Black & Tan. Try it with Guiness and Boddingtons. Good stuff

Chaos

You seem to put as much Faith into your interpretation of what Science is saying as the people do who believe their
is a God.

Like you, I am repelled by Religion and some of the things people have done and said in the name of God. But Science never has and never will be 100 % right. Every year new things are discovered and Science rewrites itself. And Science never will be able to prove or disprove their is or isn't a God and I think it’s crazy to think it can or will.

Science has had a different effect on me as to my belief in a God.. After reading Quantum Physics and
the different theories about it I have come to the conclusion their just may be a God, Force, or whatever buzz word you
choose to use. Prior to that my view was that there was not. I can’t prove it and I have no intention of trying to prove it. It’s one of those useless arguments that can never be settled.

What seems crazy to me is the many people who come out here to debate and try to beat their belief into
other persons head and start the name calling shit if you they don’t buy into it. I’m interested in all Religions as a study, but I
don’t believe many of their views or the some peoples interpretation of the text at times and see no point in being
called a "Jesus hater" or whatever because of it. And the same holds true for the Science worshipers. Because you
don’t think science is 100 % correct doesn’t make you some hick who believes everything the Bible or some religious nut or leader.

Like some of the Bible Thumpers out here you seem to be preoccupied with what other people
believe. As I pointed out before, it shouldn’t concern you if they these people aren’t in your face with it or committing
crimes against society. And by that I mean real crimes. Not silly shit that we shouldn’t concern ourselves or waist time
worrying about to begin with. For example I could care less about prostitution. If they do it in private and don’t hurt or
force someone else into the act I could care less.

[This message has been edited by Zappers (edited July 26, 2000).]

Chaos,

I have proof against religion and god which you guys wont' take into consideration because your so damn fat headed. Listen to me this time:

We created religion because we needed a basis of truth and moral character. When you take religious diversity and then look at the fact that religions have died in the past. That is enough evidence to suggest that previous gods were false, therefore the current god(s) are false.

This is what you call proof? Let us assume that the premise that some religions have died is true. Let us also assume for the sake of argument that all previous gods were false. Given these premises, it does not logically follow that all of the current gods are false. You are saying that some A are false and all B are false, therefore all C are also false. This is not a valid conclusion. So where is this proof you keep spouting off about?

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Chaos,

I have proof against religion and god which you guys wont' take into consideration because your so damn fat headed. Listen to me this time

First let me start off by saying, that I am not a "beliver".

I still stand by my original statment in a differnent thread. You have NOT provided any proof. Mabye we don't take what you are saying, becuase you have nothing to back it up, and I mean zero! Just as they can not 100% prove thier god is real you can't not prove that he is not. We lack the one all important factor, the physical presence of this god, but that does not mean that he is not real. It also doesn't mean is real.

As a note it appears to me that you are missing the modern point of religon all together.


[This message has been edited by 666 (edited July 26, 2000).]

okay you guys are pissing me off, what I said does offer proof so either live with it or go screw yourselves because i have said what i got to say and thats it.

I offered more proof in my statements than anyone one of you "believers" will ever be able to come up with defending religion. Because religion has no proof dumbshits...

It is up to you, look at the facts... or keep prayin to god almighty and you'll see that i can care less!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Originally posted by Lori:
(snip for brevity)
...As I see it, science tells you how, and faith tells you why. They are not mutually exclusive.
[/B]

Yes, "As _you_ see it".
Where as, in the real world, Science tell us What, Where, When, Where, Why and How. Christian religion "Faith" is simply belief in something which cannot be proven or disproven. Science generally deals in tangibles, whilst religion generally deals with intangibles.

BogSplat.


------------------
"You're such an inspiration to the way that I'll never, ever choose to be" - Judith, A Perfect Circle

Bogsplat,

Bullshit! You and chaos both wouldn't know faith if it sat on your face. So don't be all out here perpetratin' the fraud. If you want to debate, then get an idea, or get a life, or get an opinion, or get a fact, or get something! Otherwise, shuuuuuuut up.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Ok this discussion is over. I'm tired of hearing arrogant remarks from Lori and other people.
Bullshit! You and chaos both wouldn't know faith if it sat on your face. So don't be all out here perpetratin' the fraud. If you want to debate, then get an idea, or get a life, or get an opinion, or get a fact, or get something! Otherwise, shuuuuuuut up.
All I got to say is that your one god damn bitch! I've been spittin out my facts and my opinions on the issues. You are so fucking arrogant... I'm outta here!

------------------
Days

Sat down to think about my life passin by
So much i've done and have yet to try
But why am I here just waiting to die?
I can't complain about what lifes thrown my way
I'm thankful to be in this moment today
I've given nothing, for what I recieved
These days are more meaningful than I believed

Oooooooooh no. Oops I did it again. Sorry dude. Listen, I was just kidding when I called you an ignorant slut. I forgot that you were too young to remember when Dan Akroyd was on SNL. I was seriously trying to be funny. Um...it WAS a LITTLE funny. Ok, anyway, what facts are you talking about? I haven't heard any facts from you other than the fact that God hasn't ever walked up to you, introduced Himself, and shaken your hand. Not that you would believe Him if He did, but. The fact that YOU or mankind can not measure God with an instrument and disect Him with implements doesn't prove jack. You say science contradicts my faith, but you don't give any examples. Well I say, does not. And I know a fair amount about science, and a hell of a lot about my own faith, so... So what facts are you talking about?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Listen, I was just kidding when I called you an ignorant slut.

Prove it!


I forgot that you were too young to remember when Dan Akroyd was on SNL.

Prove it!


I was seriously trying to be funny. Um...it WAS a LITTLE funny

Prove it!

Lori,

Point-Counterpoint was one of my favorite SNL skits too, but I would have been very surprised if Chaos recognized it (remember, he/she is only 16).

Chaos,

Perhaps it's just as well you do leave. Your abusive manner doesn't endear you to anyone here. See ya.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Originally posted by aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa:
Let's say that my God is real,


Prove it!

The proof is in the heart and the change of it. Look at Tony H2o's accounts of what his life was comparred to what he became by faith in God.

I was and am inspired as was stretch and I'm sure others. This thing happens in all that choose to believe in Jesus. The proof is in the heart.

Selah

Silence

Hey Lori ~ perhaps a sound bite will help the uninitiated (or the forgetful):

http://wavcentral.com/sounds/televis/snl/snl001.wav

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

I was and am inspired as was stretch and I'm sure others. This thing happens in all that choose to believe in Jesus. The proof is in the heart.

Prove it!

Silence

Nice to know your`e still around friend. I sure do miss Tony.

Take care

aaaaaaaaaaaa,

Got anything better than "prove it!"
Challenge for you: Throw all your bias out the window for a while, pick up the Bible and talk to God, ask for understanding and see what happens. Remember, throw your bias out the window.

Chaos,

Nothing we believers say will come across as solid fact to you because you've already formed a solid opinion, just as the things you say to us seem like arrogance. If you really want to say something constructive and truly challenge us, do some solid research (without any preconceived opinions) then get back without swearing or aacting like we're thick, our brains are just as capable as yours. If you want to know how to present a good arguement, have a look at what onslaught posted on the topic "Some Problems With Atheism" (but lose the bit where he/she called me pathetic), this is a well constructed arguement which I am yet to rebutt.

And I must say it's good seeing all you believers with such a voice! :)

And I must say it's good seeing all you believers with such a voice!


Prove it!

Chaos,

"All I got to say is that your one god damn bitch! I've been spittin out my facts and my opinions on the issues. You are so fucking arrogant..."

Howz that saying go...something about the pot calling the kettle black...

"I'm outta here!"

Hey, dude, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out! :D

I always liked the saying "Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you"; so much more poetic.

Peter,

Yah, that does sound a lot prettier, huh? :) I dunno, for Chaos though, I think the word "ass" is especially appropriate. ;)

Originally posted by Lori:
Bogsplat,
Bullshit! You and chaos both wouldn't know faith if it sat on your face. So don't be all out here perpetratin' the fraud. If you want to debate, then get an idea, or get a life, or get an opinion, or get a fact, or get something! Otherwise, shuuuuuuut up.


So I have no "ideas", "opinions" or "facts"?

"Fact" is the "Doubting Thomas" story sums up exactly what I was trying to say. Faith is all about letting God take the reigns, when it comes to higher matters. There is nothing to prove or disprove.

I defined what both Science and Christian Religious Faith mean, not just to me, but to most people in the English-speaking world.

I suggest, you should pull out your copy of the bible and read the what Jesus said to Thomas when he refused to believe that Jesus had risen again, until he had touched the wounds himself. Because I think that pretty much sums up what I was trying to get across to you.

I never said whether I was a Christian or not.


------------------
"You're such an inspiration to the way that I'll never, ever choose to be" - Judith, A Perfect Circle

I dunno, for Chaos though, I think the word "ass" is especially appropriate.


Prove it!


I never said whether I was a Christian or not.

Prove it!

Bogsplat,

The whole point I'm trying to make is that you don't NEED to touch the wounds to KNOW that Jesus has risen. See, people say there's no evidence, and that makes faith necessary, as if it's just blindly taking someone's word for something. It's not. Listen to me, please. Faith does not mean to accept something as true that you don't know to be true. It means that given what you KNOW to be true, you accept that truth, and submit to it...recognize it...and live it. The problem with the evidence thing is nothing more than this.....you and others who may not believe dictate the TYPE of evidence that has to be presented. You're looking for the wrong type of evidence. You're looking for it the wrong way and in the wrong place. SO WHY ARE YOU SURPRISED YOU HAVEN'T FOUND IT? It's not that there is no evidence, THERE'S PLENTY, but not "the kind" or the way that YOU want. It's like you're trying to weigh something with a ruler....get it?

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

Isn't that what I said to _you_ ?
You on the other hand were not saying
anything of the sort, you were merely abusing me because I appeared to have a different opinion than you.

A leap of faith is necessary before you can become a Christian. BECAUSE, it is impossible to prove the existance of God. BECAUSE, us humans have no way of quantifying God.

Soooo you don't believe in God just because you can't quantify him? Your conclusion is that He doesn't exist because you can't measure Him? That's ludicrous, I'm sorry, but it just is. Knowing what you know about science, how can you possibly use that as some justification? Do you honestly think that we SHOULD be able to measure God????? Duh. If scientific knowledge is increasing at an increasing rate, then how in the hell could we possibly quantify God? And all the while, all of the scientists are atheists, and the thought of a God would stop their hearts for crying out loud. You want to be your own God, and that's the ONLY thing keeping you from your "evidence". Those of us who know Him couldn't give a rats ass about measuring Him or putting Him under a microscope. It's like wanting to disect another being in order to get to know them. It's stupid. You don't have to disect someone in order to get to know them! That's what communication is for. And YOU, yes YOU, can communicate with God. You just don't want to.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

Twisting what people say will win you no friends. I did not say that I am an atheist.

I am _NOT_ an atheist.

Nor did I say that I _WANT_ to quantify God.

Nor did I say that I _WANT_ to be God.

What I put forward was the idea that the reason _SOME_ people don't believe in God is that their is no way to quantify God using human science.

Ok, sorry. I'm not trying to twist your words dude. I must have misunderstood. Yes, that is true, that some people do use the fact that science hasn't found a way to quantify God as a reason to not believe in His existence, and yes, that is stupid. Not that I believe that there isn't a WAY in which God COULD be quantified. Uh, God could tell you how to do that. :) Their assumption is flawed in a paradoxical way...if God is the creator of everything, then He is the creator of all that science is discovering. And if science is still in it's infancy stage as far as discovery is concerned, which I would take an educated guess that it is, then how in the world would someone assume that we would have been able to quantify GOD of all things?! People will lose their souls, defy the very meaning of life itself, all because scientists haven't created an istrument to measure God with yet?!?!?!?!?! Is that crazy or what??? It makes no logical sense to me at all. And who needs an instrument? Your body, your mind, your spirit, your life, your pain, your joy, your personal relationship with God is more than enough. You don't need a flippin' instrument to see God, or to understand Him. People want Him in a box with a set of instructions. It's stupid. Who do they think they are? What kind of mindset is that really? I don't have to be able to quantify God in His entirety to be able to know He's alive and kicking and to learn from Him. I don't even think it's possible to quantify another human being in it's ENTIRETY do you? So why would we be able to do it with God. That doesn't mean you can't get to know someone, very well...communicate with them...learn from them....trust them....love them...all without being able to quantify them...imagine that?????

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Lori,

I just had to say excellent post, girl!!!!!!

You go Xena! :D

Originally posted by Lori:
I don't even think it's possible to quantify another human being in it's ENTIRETY do you? So why would we be able to do it with God. That doesn't mean you can't get to know someone, very well...communicate with them...learn from them....trust them....love them...all without being able to quantify them...imagine that?????


Currently we just don't have the technology to analysize a human being down to the cell, or measure each individual chemical and/or electrical reaction in the central nervous system. Not quickly enough, anyway. The amount of information that could be extracted from a single human being, would probably more than fill up all the shelves in all the libraries in the world. Even if we did, we still mightn't have the
measure of an entire human being. There is the small factor of where our sense of self comes from, can it be waved away by science, or will digging a little deeper reveal a soul?

As for quantifying God, yes it is stupid, how can you quantify something which you can't even prove to others exists.

Ok Boggie, I say I know He's real. He communicates with me, and has changed my life. He has enlightened me with His love and His spirit, and has changed me into a different person than I was before. He's as real to me as the nose on my face. Flash knows Him too, ask her. She can hear Him clear as a bell, and He has changed her life and soul as well. Even without our witness, there is plenty of evidence in this world of God. Don't blame me if you don't WANT to believe it, or look at it, or even understand it. There is a relatively easy and specific way to learn the truth about God...and that is to seek it, with an open mind and a humble and sincere heart. You do that, you'll find Him. You don't, you won't. It's your choice, so don't tell me about proving....prove it your damn self! Why should I have to prove it to you? Or anyone else for that matter? No one proved it to me except Him. It's just not that easy. Not nearly as canned and easy as you would like it to be. Well boo-hoo. That would defeat the entire point. This is a personal journey Bog. No one else can do it for you, so you may as well quit looking for someone too.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Originally posted by Lori:
This is a personal journey Bog. No one else can do it for you, so you may as well quit looking for someone too.


Exactly, each person has their own individual relationship with God... and a leap of faith is necessary if you want to jump on board. I'd like to have a beer with God, but God hasn't been around lately. I hope the Trinity aren't still pissed at me for drawing pentagrams on my Grade 8 school diary.

cheers,
BogSplat.

I hope the Trinity aren't still pissed at me for drawing pentagrams on my Grade 8 school diary.

You too? I sincerely hope you didn't lose any sleep over that worry ;) (To be honest, I never slept, so there was none to lose at the time.)

Just my unnecessary two cents worth.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

*snicker, snicker*

I was stuck in a boring meeting with my overbearingly Mormon CIO, and managed to doodle a gigantic pentagram over my notes without catching myself. Good one, huh? I mean a big one, filled the whole page. Veerrrry smart, MoonCat.

Come to think of it though, he hasn't said a word yet, and that was weeks ago. Hm, maybe he's afraid I'll hex him or something, LOL. I hope so, I dislike and distrust that man and the less he speaks to me the better.

My two scents? Mmm, Clove and Sage. :D