Ah yes, this simple, but meaningful question we used to hear in Sunday school. If you're a Christian, and you believe that God created everything in the universe, then what exactly is "God"?
Obviously, someone or something happened in which this "God" appeared. Personally, I don't believe in God and thus, this question doesn't apply to me. I just want to hear the answers that you people answer this with.

Think about it, if nothing was there, then how could something come out of nothing and then create everything as we know it. I suppose, "God" spawned from the Big Bang too? :D

-ill
:m:

God created time along with the universe.

So God went back into time and created himself?? :p

I dont believe either on a biblical God BUT..

Man is limited as far as knowing everything just by the physics of this universe. Matter of fact, he has a hard time understanding himself. BUT the fact that he is limited as to knowing everything gives him hope of infinite possibilities. There's hope in ignorance and untill the last bit of kowledge is known I will have hope in an afterlife.

An agnostics opinion.

Or if we assume he has always existed then what was he doing before he created the universe? Was he bored, lonely, or what?

Perhaps he has created many universes in the hope of one time not making so many mistakes.

Question is how would something that is timeless percieve time (be it nothing at all or indeed God)? My thoughts are that time itself is prone to entrophy and is not an infinate mechanism which is a paradox in its self because it's accepted as the metronome to which everything is tied. Hehe just like in a good three piece band don't ya know, its actually the melodic bass player that keeps the time not the drummer at all, if you get my meaning. :)

...it was simply created accidentally in natural processes.Why is it so hard to accept?

Originally posted by Gravage
...it was simply created accidentally in natural processes.Why is it so hard to accept?


It's hard to accept because of a couple reasons. One, we believe in cause and effect, for example, I'm here because of my parents. Two, we are such insignificant beings in comparison to the universe that we assume automatically there's something superior to us.

Originally posted by Greco
It's hard to accept because of a couple reasons. One, we believe in cause and effect, for example, I'm here because of my parents. Two, we are such insignificant beings in comparison to the universe that we assume automatically there's something superior to us.

And yet,the natural processes are above us,above parents,above any being,it's simply depends on us how much we will be able to use energy in our benefit.

Gravage ...it was simply created accidentally in natural processes.Why is it so hard to accept?


Just like a christian saying God created the universe. Well what created God?

Just like an evolutionist saying the universe was created because of the big bang, or multiple big bangs. Where did the matter come from to cause a big bang?

Question is how would something that is timeless percieve time (be it nothing at all or indeed God)?

How can a mere human understand timelessness. We were born into time. We mark the days as we grow older and eventually die. To be outside of time, you could perceive the world from the beginning to the end because you are outside of time. I believe there is a dimension of timelessness.

Now this may just be a fallacy of the human condition but i find it very hard to imagine a dimension outside time. How could any being function without time, how could it think? One thought following another would in itself define some sort of time. And if this being doesn't think or live what's the point of worshipping it? If it can't think it can't care.

Originally posted by Quigly
Just like a christian saying God created the universe. Well what created God?

Just like an evolutionist saying the universe was created because of the big bang, or multiple big bangs. Where did the matter come from to cause a big bang?

I do agree,but natural processes are everywhere,there is no limit of nature.And I actually support big bang theory and evoultion.



How can a mere human understand timelessness. We were born into time. We mark the days as we grow older and eventually die. To be outside of time, you could perceive the world from the beginning to the end because you are outside of time. I believe there is a dimension of timelessness.

Sure that might be,I can also consider that,but still it doesn't mean you will be eternal.What if time doesn't exist at all,what if this was some human imagination.I truly wonder...

I hear this from many scientist, nubians, nuwabians, ufo cults, atheist, etc, maybe its not meants for you to know everything, if many knew what created God they would probably try to destroy HIM, thats just mans nature the gain of ultimate power, people seek for the wrong things in life, asking questions that minister more questions instead of seeking for edification of life, why worry yourself with something you'll never know and something that wont help you, i believe though there is a timeless deminsion, my bishop spoke once about the tunnel of time, where you translate from physical earth to afterlife, being heaven or hell, but there isnt any time factor there, this is my $ 0.02 pea ce in.

if many knew what created God they would probably try to destroy HIM

But God should know this, being omnipotant and all, shouldn't he? And since when could man destroy him? God is all powerful. He could destroy man if they tried such a thing, right? See, just more made-up bullshit to fit your argument.


How can a mere human understand timelessness. We were born into time. We mark the days as we grow older and eventually die. To be outside of time, you could perceive the world from the beginning to the end because you are outside of time. I believe there is a dimension of timelessness.

Time isnt' real, Quiggs. Time is just a means by which humans came up with to measure the days and such. Think about it, if you and a friend both sit around with your eyes closed for an hour, one of you will percieve that hour as being longer than the other one will. The hour may feel like 45 minutes to you, while it feels like an hour and a half to your friend.

The way you all speak of time is as some sort of sentinent being, some kind of blanket draped over all of existance, but you say that without any grounds to do so. If time were to exist, as you say it does, then time would be uniform, and strict. There would be no percieving of it in different ways, like there is no percieving of gravity in different ways. The gravitational pull "Feels" the same for everyone. Even the man who can bench press 300 lbs feels the same pull as the man who can't lift it.

JD

He was probably created by a bunch of elderly druids in a Stonehenge type thingy in another universe.

Originally posted by Cris
Or if we assume he has always existed then what was he doing before he created the universe? Was he bored, lonely, or what?

Perhaps he has created many universes in the hope of one time not making so many mistakes.

That would be most likely,a multiverse where every possible combination of quantum events takes place,in fact the multiverse could exist without god,the multiverse idea kinda debunks the need for god.

Think of it this way:
there are universes with no planets,no stars,no life,some wont even bang,we obviously are in one that supports life otherwise wed not be here to talk about it,but theres plenty of universes where they in fact cant talk about it.

You dont need god in that way,why would you?

Im happier and more comfortable in the multiverse idea of quantum physics,even though by some its considered an unorthadox explanation of quantum physics.

Though it makes the need for god more unlikely,it makes more physical sense than god,god is physically impossible in a sense while theres NOTHING in the laws of physics which prevents there being a multiverse.

Originally posted by Sleep no more
I hear this from many scientist, nubians, nuwabians, ufo cults, atheist, etc, maybe its not meants for you to know everything, if many knew what created God they would probably try to destroy HIM, thats just mans nature the gain of ultimate power, people seek for the wrong things in life, asking questions that minister more questions instead of seeking for edification of life, why worry yourself with something you'll never know and something that wont help you, i believe though there is a timeless deminsion, my bishop spoke once about the tunnel of time, where you translate from physical earth to afterlife, being heaven or hell, but there isnt any time factor there, this is my $ 0.02 pea ce in.

Well,God is a state of mind,I have experienced something similar to that(but still it doesn't have anything to God at all).I really can't tell what it was,because I'd shame myself.

God could be like a circle or cycle, no begginning no ending. If you try to figure what created things and you go back as far as you can, I guess something would be created from nothing (unless its like a circle).

Originally posted by JDawg
But God should know this, being omnipotant and all, shouldn't he? And since when could man destroy him? God is all powerful. He could destroy man if they tried such a thing, right? See, just more made-up bullshit to fit your argument.




Time isnt' real, Quiggs. Time is just a means by which humans came up with to measure the days and such. Think about it, if you and a friend both sit around with your eyes closed for an hour, one of you will percieve that hour as being longer than the other one will. The hour may feel like 45 minutes to you, while it feels like an hour and a half to your friend.

The way you all speak of time is as some sort of sentinent being, some kind of blanket draped over all of existance, but you say that without any grounds to do so. If time were to exist, as you say it does, then time would be uniform, and strict. There would be no percieving of it in different ways, like there is no percieving of gravity in different ways. The gravitational pull "Feels" the same for everyone. Even the man who can bench press 300 lbs feels the same pull as the man who can't lift it.

JD

Time is very real (IMO). Read any of the NUMBER of threads we have in the physics forum. If you ascribe to standard model of physics which at this time includes General Relativity, you must also ascribe to the idea that time is not just a human construct, but a part of space-TIME itself. It is a dimension that we travel through just as x,y,z are. Gravity and relativistic velocities can affect this dimension and lead to some weird results. Weird, but no less true.


-AntonK

If you try to figure what created things and you go back as far as you can, I guess something would be created from nothing (unless its like a circle).
I like the idea that we create ourselves in the future by initiating the big bang :D

Seriously though, at some point something must be eternal. I choose to take the simplest route and say it is the universe (that is the energy itself) which is eternal. Anything beyond that is worthless conjecture at this point.

Originally posted by VitalOne
God could be like a circle or cycle, no begginning no ending. If you try to figure what created things and you go back as far as you can, I guess something would be created from nothing (unless its like a circle).

maybe sweety, but I do think that He is the beggining and the endind... He was not created, He already existed. People, just close your eyes and think a bit... how would it be with no Earth?? He could have been there for ages... we are worried with time because we realized that we don't have much. but God, if He is going to exist forever (cuz only we living beings die - and that means God is not a living bean He is The Spirit) why would He be worried with our time?

lets not bother about where we came from or where God came from. What I am more concerned about is where we're going to go from here....Oblivion?? next question....Point of our existence?. This whole creation thing is getting to my nerves. maybe creation is just a fallacy in our thinking...we are after all limited by the reality of our surroundings...i think its a bit too early to make conclusions about the creation of God. we have to have evidence for whatever opinion we may derive,
truth is I don't know who created God or how he came into existence but i think i'll go with the fact there is an intelligence beyond me and that intelligence is God. i mean comon....we havnt created anything as yet...just discovered it, so what could we know about creation.

cheers:)

i think i'll go with the fact there is an intelligence beyond me and that intelligence is God
This is a fact? Forgive me if I don't take your word for it...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by VitalOne
God could be like a circle or cycle, no begginning no ending. If you try to figure what created things and you go back as far as you can, I guess something would be created from nothing (unless its like a circle).

Yes,but it wouldn't be created from some being.It's just a normal natural process.

:eek:

In the Beginning there was only Uncertainty, the Reality of Everything was without meaning, without Cause.

Something from nothing?

Even nothing is something

The Immaterial made, Material, Manifest.

Some scientific guy once said, “ that a singularity in the emptiness
has no meaning.”

Something can exists and at the same time not be material,
carry no weight, be unimportant, be insignificant, exist without meaning, cause, be immaterial.

The supposed singularity that went bang being immaterial, without meaning, was neither big not small.

In order to be a singularity within a differentiation the differentiation would have to be made up of myriad singularities whose inertia, motion, was without angular momentum; each singularity being relative, meaningful, only to itself.

In the Beginning, the Emptiness of the Great Void, nothing that is something, was filled with nothing, myriad Creatures, singularities whose motion was uncertain, without direction, without meaning, without cause.

The Law, only the Whole of a Single Reality, a single integer, a singularity, is FREE to occupy a given moment of Time in Space, the Here and Now, the Reality of the moment.

Freedom, Boundlessness, Motion that is infinite is uncertain, without meaning, without cause.

Inertia in the Beginning was without Angular momentum, without direction, no beginning no end, without meaning, uncertain, unimportant, without value, without shape, definition, design.


In the beginning the number of singularities each infinitely Free, each occupying a given moment of Time in Space, Space-Time, relative only to itself is without meaning, is of no significance, is immaterial.

In the Beginning the Reality of Everything was without meaning, everything that existed was without cause, infinite.

In the BE-gining Nothingness that was something, Emptiness, the Great Void was without Meaning, without cause, without Form, was filled with meaningless Singularities uncertain in Motion that was without Meaning, without cause.

Uncertain in Motion a Singularity alone in the Emptiness being without meaning is unknowable.

In the Beginning, in a Time Before Time began, the Reality of Everything was unknowable, the myriad immaterial singularities continuously uncertain in motion were without angular momentum and the material World of Reality, the Reality of Everything as we know it to be was for not, for nothing, without meaning, without cause, of no avail, boundless, Space-Time-Motion, irrelevant.

In the Beginning the Universe, the Great Void filled with meaningless Singularity, the Reality of Everything as we know it to be existing only as a potentiality, the Reality of First Cause.

God is all powerful. He is more than able to create himself.

Just because your existence is dependent on time and space ( before and after, which came first etc.) doesn't mean his is.



P.S. If you are interested, the egg came before the chicken.

If my above post seems absurd, consider this:

Atheists consider that we started as a random collection of chemicals, eventually evolving to our supposedly 'advanced' state of development. In essence we created ourselves. Not so absurd now?

jeremy,
Absurd? Yes.

We didn't create ourselves. We are the result of the existing physical laws and evolutionary processes that make-up our universe. What created the wind? Nothing. It is the result of natural phenomena.

Originally posted by fadingCaptain
jeremy,
Absurd? Yes.

We didn't create ourselves. We are the result of the existing physical laws and evolutionary processes that make-up our universe. What created the wind? Nothing. It is the result of natural phenomena.

Technically we created ourselves, because the first bacteria transformed into a cell, that cell transformed into a e. cell, that transformed into a protists and so on until a monkey-human transforms into a human, that human transforms into other humans, and then that transforms into us. So we did create our selves, in a way. Each thing, creates another thing from itself creating a new thing. We came from the first bacteria, we are just an extremely transformed version of it. But lightning/radiation created bacteria, so lightning created us. But lightning is electricity, so electricity created life.

Wind energy comes from the sun.........

Yes exactly, except for maybe the wind energy from the sun part, wind is a result of the rotation of the earth and/or temparature changes, I cant remember. But what you purposed Jeremy isn't very abusrd at all, Faded Captian is a rather dense one....

However we creating oursleves doesn't explain how the first self was created and one still must resort to infinte creations. But, that is simply a paradox of causality, where does it all begin? For if every cause was once an effect...how is anything happening?

The need to create has always been prevalent.
Soon we will be able to create a VIRTUAL REALITY world on a computers hard drive on a computer that has reached a SIGLARITY
We will be able to control this TECHNO REALITY in a way that we are, to them (the V.R universe) a kind of god
In this V.R universe there could be beings (created by the programmer) that could, over time create their own type ov computers, and whose to say they might even create their own V.R universe with their own technology
They to could be a godly like force to their own V.R world
So who’s to say that our world is in fact the same idea?
That we are aV.R world controlled by a programmer (god)

So V.R creates V.R which creates V.R which creates V.R
In other words GOD created a GOD which created a GOD and so on
---------------------------------------------------------------------
the Matrix is more believable than the bible
:m:

Yes exactly, except for maybe the wind energy from the sun part, wind is a result of the rotation of the earth and/or temparature changes, I cant remember. But what you purposed Jeremy isn't very abusrd at all, Faded Captian is a rather dense one....

Thanks, about the wind thing, we're both right. http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/wres/

The need to create has always been prevalent. Soon we will be able to create a VIRTUAL REALITY world on a computers hard drive on a computer that has reached a SIGLARITY We will be able to control this TECHNO REALITY in a way that we are, to them (the V.R universe) a kind of god In this V.R universe there could be beings (created by the programmer) that could, over time create their own type ov computers, and whose to say they might even create their own V.R universe with their own technology They to could be a godly like force to their own V.R world So who’s to say that our world is in fact the same idea? That we are aV.R world controlled by a programmer (god)

We can already create artificial neurons and artificial life, but soon it will be come kind of like a very smart version of The Sims. But it is hard to debate whether the a.i. is alive or not, its just computations , and we're just chemicals. I have heard that the chances that we live in a simulation world are greater than the chances that we live in a real world because of the laws of nature, physics, and chemistry.

God simply always existed. Of course us humans cant comprehend an eternity so it seems impossible but that is the truth.

:eek:

I agree the egg came before the chicken because the origin of the egg that eventually became the chicken egg was not a chicken.

The chicken is a mutant.

No the chicken did not create itself.

The chicken exists, was caused to exist, because angular momentum is finite; change in inertia is caused, is without intent.

The creative process of Evolution, Chaos, must be, is, is the effect of a cause that is without intent, Uncertain.

The question is what is the cause, what is the Creator of,
what allows for the chaos to exist without intent?

Chaos, evolution, cause and effect, the Finite Freedom of a differentiated singularity, the Reality of Second Cause.

Freedom, the Reality of First Cause is infinite, boundlessness.

Freedom makes the World go round.

chris,
Faded Captian is a rather dense one....
Does making offhand snide comments like this serve you well in life? Not sure what I did to offend you. At any rate, I'll take dense to be a compliment as my brain density is obviously a little higher than yours...

Now, 'create' at its most basic definition means to cause to exist. So I ask you all (jeremy, vitalone, chriscunningham) : How did we cause ourselves to exist? We are obviously the result of a naturally occurring process called evolution. 'We' as in humans did not cause this process to occur. We are obviously not the same thing as bacteria. Is the argument that we are only molecules and everything is molecules...so everything made itself? Psychobabble. So...how did we create ourselves?

As for the chicken and egg...eggs were around well before chickens. :)

Originally posted by Cris
Or if we assume he has always existed then what was he doing before he created the universe? Was he bored, lonely, or what?

Perhaps he has created many universes in the hope of one time not making so many mistakes.

There was no concept of time, before the creation of the universe. With the Creation of space, time came along as part of the package. God was not bored, there has always been eternal fellowship between the Father, Jesus his only Son, and the Holy Spirit.

God lives apart from time, and space, and is separate from His creation.

In Physics, we learn that "within a closed system, energy can neither be created nor destroyed", well God is outside that closed system.

From Einstein we learn that matter is a form of energy.

Originally posted by Cris
Or if we assume he has always existed then what was he doing before he created the universe? Was he bored, lonely, or what?

Perhaps he has created many universes in the hope of one time not making so many mistakes.

OK on the main question if something made god what made something,if something made something which made god,what made something. so youll be going for infinity unless you believe god has always existed,which is the only possible way.

But then the universe has been here for 15 billion years,god on the other hand has always existed which would mean he spent infinity doing nothing,and when the universe dies he'll continue to spend infinity doing nothing,so 30 billion years or whatever is just a blip,like a nanosecond compared to infinity.

Thats why i dont believe in god cos its rediculous.

However the many worlds idea can work without god,i think in the next 50 years parallel universe theory shall be proven by the use of quantum computers,if proven it will once and for all change our perspective on reality,i believe it will be the biggest change since it was discovered the world is round not flat.

Youll notice things have always stepped up,from believing earth is all there is,to seeing it as a sphere,then realising theres other planets,and the stars are suns possibly with planets too,onto the fact we are in one of many galaxies,so i see many worlds as the final theory,it dont get bigger than to say that every atom does everything somewhere,like some network.

Lets call the network gods brain,each universe is like a brain cell,it performs its atomic actions,its quanta on the basis that another universe(cell) does something different.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts however and you could say that one day there might be a theory that suggests the whole thing is like a computational system,but totally self working no need for god.At the moment its hard to imagine that kind of reasoning cos youre trying to speak in terms of:there has never been nothing,perhaps the first universe was like a cancer in the fabric of the multiverse and it just kept multiplying at every quantum alternative state.