Some films are just too violent.

I'm as partial as anyone to a well-executed headshot with brains and blood spray exiting stage left, and I even quite like the odd severed arm, but shots of people cutting their own tongues off in EXTREME close-up, with maximum use of gruesome sound effects? Women being punched, kicked, raped, repeatedly stamped on and having their nipples stretched out on a table and severed? A man being suspended from the ceiling with 20 meat-hooks through his back and legs, then having his face skewered and boiling fat poured over him? Severed faces sliding down walls? People having their legs severed, their arms pulled off? People being cut in half and having their organs spill out (cleaning teams squishing through the intestines)?

No. Just no.

Japanese film-makers = bad and wrong (yes, all of them). What is it with these people?

http://uk.rottentomatoes.com/m/ichi_the_killer/about.php

Some films are just too violent.

I'm as partial as anyone to a well-executed headshot with brains and blood spray exiting stage left, and I even quite like the odd severed arm, but shots of people cutting their own tongues off in EXTREME close-up, with maximum use of gruesome sound effects? Women being punched, kicked, raped, repeatedly stamped on and having their nipples stretched out on a table and severed? A man being suspended from the ceiling with 20 meat-hooks through his back and legs, then having his face skewered and boiling fat poured over him? Severed faces sliding down walls? People having their legs severed, their arms pulled off? People being cut in half and having their organs spill out (cleaning teams squishing through the intestines)?

No. Just no.

Japanese film-makers = bad and wrong (yes, all of them). What is it with these people?

You've got to be kidding. It's called horror movies and hollywood makes the most gruesome horror movies.

It's not a 'horror' movie. It's a Japanese gangster film. I'm being slightly disingenuous though: I thought I knew what I was letting myself in for.

And no, Hollywood doesn't make "the most gruesome horror movies". They make sterile, formulaic tat. Which is far worse.

Sounds intereting.
How are the effects?
More often than not I am sorely disappointed in films that others call grotesque and realistic.

Sounds intereting.
How are the effects?


Deliberately over-the-top. It's unnerving, but a lot of the blood n' guts are very unrealistic, which seems to be the typical way Japanese gore is done. 'Audition' by the same director, Miike, is also very good. Not very gory though.



Japanese film-makers = bad and wrong (yes, all of them). What is it with these people?

Why are you racist?

Why are you racist?
Since there's no comma after the 'Why' I'll assume you're assuming rather than asking.

So I'll answer your assumption with a question: since when have film-makers qualified as a race?

And a demand: you tell me why Japanese film-makers excel at turning extreme physical and sexual violence into pornography.

And a supplementary question: are they responding to a deep-seated need in the Japanese psyche?

And a closing statement: yes, I'm being a bit provocative.

one raven: the quality of the effects varies. The tongue-cutting scene: stomach-churning. Other scenes: laughable, sometimes intentionally (the film does include quite a lot of dark humour).

On the whole: realistically gruesome enough to distract me from the mystifying plot and leave me tensing up in anticipation of the next outbreak of bloody-minded carnage. A visceral roller-coaster ride of extremely questionable artistic merit.

I want to see a serious gore movie with effects as realistic and gripping as the straight razor scene in Pan's Labyrinth (great film, by the way - best I have seen in quite a while).

I find the Saw films hard to take too (they're brilliant though, despite what the increasingly disenchanted critics say). And the 'head-on-a-stick' scene from Wolf Creek. And, oh, loads of other ones. Maybe I'm just a wuss. I just don't seem to have enough of whatever chemical it is that makes you enjoy watching human beings being cut, bludgeoned and torn apart. Maybe I should watch the news more.

redarmy11:
So I'll answer your assumption with a question: since when have film-makers qualified as a race?

You know who else didn't like gory Japanese movies? Hitler.

And a demand: you tell me why Japanese film-makers excel at turning extreme physical and sexual violence into pornography.

Rape is big there because the penis isn't?

And a supplementary question: are they responding to a deep-seated need in the Japanese psyche?

Possibly, but does the rote, formulaic crap (Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Beginning, Exorcist: Dominion, etc) speak to some deep-seated American need? And American "horror" films are really just as bad about sexual assault -- they just don't show it. Which is, really, a lot worse.

And a closing statement: yes, I'm being a bit provocative.

So was TIpper Gore.

I just don't seem to have enough of whatever chemical it is that makes you enjoy watching human beings being cut, bludgeoned and torn apart. Maybe I should watch the news more.

This would be more convincing had you not expressed appreciation for the hokey "Saw" franchise, or rented a movie called "Ichi the Killer." Seriously, what were you expecting? A fun filled romp through fields of clover? Singing happy animals? Its reputation had to precede it....

It's not a 'horror' movie. It's a Japanese gangster film. I'm being slightly disingenuous though: I thought I knew what I was letting myself in for.

When they kill themselves (traditionally), they put a sword in from one side and twist it to the other side, the really honorable ones will do it the other way as well. What you see as gore, they see as strength.

Audition is a very funny movie. I watched the end with my friend and we couldn't but laugh when she said "deeper, deeper, deeper". We're probably sick... :(
That being said I dislike Ichi - too meaningless.

Oh, and japanese generally do have sick movies, especially when it concerns sex.

When they kill themselves (traditionally), they put a sword in from one side and twist it to the other side, the really honorable ones will do it the other way as well. What you see as gore, they see as strength.
ok, but this film goes way, way beyond mere disembowelling. My tolerance levels can cope with that, but this was an utter slaughterfest.
This would be more convincing had you not expressed appreciation for the hokey "Saw" franchise, or rented a movie called "Ichi the Killer." Seriously, what were you expecting? A fun filled romp through fields of clover? Singing happy animals? Its reputation had to precede it....
I was expecting to see The Most Violent Film Ever Made. I just wasn't prepared for the strength of my own reactions. I thought I could handle it... and, after half an hour or so, I could, which is what I find most disturbing.

Some MP3 players come with a warning: set an initial sound level and stick to it. Don't be tempted to increase the volume because, even though you think you can handle it, you're actually damaging your hearing once you go beyond a certain level.

What's our creeping tolerance of films like this doing to us? Are there any limits? What would it take to shock you? I think I may be able to get hold of some snuff films - realism guaranteed. Is anyone interested?

It's all most worrying.

I think I may be able to get hold of some snuff films - realism guaranteed. Is anyone interested?

Being a fan of Silence of the Lambs does not necessarily mean you condon cannibalism and murder.
It's not real.

I knew you'd say that, but you didn't answer my other question: what, in film terms, would it take to shock (I think I mean nauseate) you? Is there anything left?

Why do you want to traumatize your own psyche?

Good question. What's your view?

Avatar:
Audition is a very funny movie. I watched the end with my friend and we couldn't but laugh when she said "deeper, deeper, deeper". We're probably sick..

Perhaps, but it's still awesome.

redarmy11:
I was expecting to see The Most Violent Film Ever Made. I just wasn't prepared for the strength of my own reactions. I thought I could handle it... and, after half an hour or so, I could, which is what I find most disturbing.

So why whine about it now? I spent 9 bucks (okay, my boyfriend did) on "Pathfinder" expecting a cool movie about Vikings, since it was advertised as such. I watched a crapfest about....randomly appearing bears. I have reason to be disappointed.
However, if I rent "Anal Auditions," I don't have reason to be offended by the pornographic content. DUH!

Basically, you sound disingenuous.

I knew you'd say that, but you didn't answer my other question: what, in film terms, would it take to shock (I think I mean nauseate) you? Is there anything left?

In a movie that I knew was not real?
I can't say I have ever been shocked.
I'm not sure it is possible.

I'm not really a gore connoisseur, either.
I have seen very few "gore movies" simply because I prefer to watch movies that have a point other than the gore.
If gore adds to it, great, but superfluous, gratuitous gore, bores me.

That said, I can appreciate well-done gore as an art form.
Did you see Pan's Labyrinth?
It was not a gore film by any means - it was a child's fairytale.
If you have, then it is hard to deny that the straight razor scene is not a work of art - it was exceptionally well done.

I don't think it is a matter of tolerance or becoming desensitized at all for me - stories have always been simply stories.
They are there for entertainment.
the more it pulls me in and gets me emotionally involved - the better.

Much more distubing to me than gore is movies like American Hostory X, which is not only realistic - it might as well be real.
I see it all around me, and some parts of the story hit home on an almost unbearably real level.
That's what I loved so much about it.
I watch it over and over.
To strike me and to move me means you did your job as a story teller well.

I suppose it is pretty much the same with well done gore.

Is there anything left?

Dude, people used to grab the kids and a picnic lunch, and go watch a guy being drawn and quartered. If anything, we're tame.



Beyond that, "Salo." That's a vile film, and I do mean vile in the "I feel queasy" sense, not the "hey, Cannibal Corpse threw an awesome concert" sense.


Oh, and don't think that I'm ragging on you -- I'm just as peculiar, I love horror but I really feel upset (too strong a word?) by some of the more gruesome, or sadistic imagery.

Basically, you sound disingenuous.
Oh right. Sorry about that. I meant to sound shocked. Wonder how that happened?

I'm not whining - just informing everyone that I've found my limit, and now enquiring where everyone else's lie. What would it take to shock you?

The random bear thing sounds good.

I also love having nightmares for the same reasons.

I have yet to see a film that does not pale in comparison with the things that happen in my head.

If I ever see a film that shocks me I will truly be impressed.

(well, I may have been a little shocked to see Gene Wilder in drag in Birdcage, but I don't think that counts)

I haven't seen Pan's Labyrinth. I thought it all sounded a bit too artsy-fartsy for my tastes. I'll watch it now though on your recommendation. I have seen American History X and was suitably impressed. The 'mouth on the kerb' scene will stay with me, as it taps into a long-held fear (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1383324) of mine. The ending was memorably brutal too, and a bit of a surprise. And I agree - shocking in a much deeper way than your average gorefest for its realism. Have you seen Romper Stomper? Same message, but a bit too ham-fisted for my liking.

Of the films I've seen recently I think I've been most impressed by Requiem for a Dream: brilliantly done and, again, shocking for its believability.

And Apocalypto: One of the best 'chase movies' I've ever seen. Not terribly accurate in its portrayal, no, but great entertainment. I liked the bit where the Conquistadors came along at the end and saved the Maya from themselves. :p

Dude, people used to grab the kids and a picnic lunch, and go watch a guy being drawn and quartered. If anything, we're tame.
Yeah, but we're supposed to be civilised now. And to know better. Maybe they should bring public executions back, so that we can see what actually happens when a human being loses a tug-of-war against two horses. I'm not convinced that all this violence by proxy is good for us.
Beyond that, "Salo." That's a vile film, and I do mean vile in the "I feel queasy" sense, not the "hey, Cannibal Corpse threw an awesome concert" sense.
I've read about that one before, which was enough to dissuade me from ever watching it (so I probably will at some point, contrary creature that I am).
Oh, and don't think that I'm ragging on you.
Rag away, Xev. Like Ichi, your reputation precedes you. The fables don't frighten me though.

I have yet to see a film that does not pale in comparison with the things that happen in my head.

Same - I can have dreams that make Clive Barker look like Dr. Seuss.
And yes, they are fun.


redarmy:
And I agree - shocking in a much deeper way than your average gorefest for its realism. Have you seen Romper Stomper? Same message, but a bit too ham-fisted for my liking.

Agreed on the curb -- ugh?
Romper Stomper didn't really disturb me, if anything I thought it was rather funny.
And Russell Crowe was hot as a skinhead (sorry? he was!)


The "worst" Nazi movie I've seen was an Italian film called The NIght Porter. There's no blood or gore, it's just a love story between a concentration camp guard and a prisoner.
I mean that really says it all.



Yeah, but we're supposed to be civilised now. And to know better. Maybe they should bring public executions back, so that we can see what actually happens when a human being loses a tug-of-war against two horses. I'm not convinced that all this violence by proxy is good for us.

I was just thinking about this on Saturday, I went to this: http://www.bodiestheexhibition.com/
A lot of the tag lines are about how you can see "actual human bodies!," which was just ever so ghoulish. But then, I was also interested in seeing a dissected, posed corpse. It's not necessarily ghoulish, it's just that we seem to crave reminders of our mortality.

Ugh.

Added to list.

What are you complaining about? Ichi was funny not gory. It was gory like Kill Bill was gory.

You probably don't like how he masturbates while he's killing people?

Know which part was really funny? Where he thought he was going to take over beating that prostitute and he ended up cutting her neck open.
Hell, he just wanted to beat her up like her pimp did. What's wrong with that?

Oh.
The scene where Kakihara becomes disappointed in that woman (forget her name) who fails to beat him as well as his old master did (forget his name too.)

Anyway.
The movie was so fake that it couldn't even be considered gore.


Speaking of other Miike movies, I've never seen Audition, but I have seen Visitor Q and The Happiness of the ... Katakuris? (Forget the name again...)

Visitor Q opened up with a girl having sex with her father. But, her father cums too fast and his daughter ridicules him for it.

Heh.
Then, later, he kills a prostitute... If I remember right, he was having erection difficulties... Hmm. Forget. But, he then had sex with her corpse and he loved her long time.

Another priceless scene was when the mother began to lactate and squirted breast milk all over the kitchen floor.

Basically, the movie was about healing.

We needed further evidence of the depths of your depravity?
You probably don't like how he masturbates while he's killing people?
On the contrary it was one of the few bits I did like. Most arousing.
Know which part was really funny? Where he thought he was going to take over beating that prostitute and he ended up cutting her neck open.
Hell, he just wanted to beat her up like her pimp did. What's wrong with that?
That part was quite funny in a trying-not-to-appear-too-staid-about-this kind of way. I would've laughed if I hadn't been too busy feeling sorry for the poor sap and cringing at the vicious beating that preceded it, then wondering if real arterial spray also looks that fake.
Visitor Q opened up with a girl having sex with her father. But, her father cums too fast and his daughter ridicules him for it.

Heh.
Then, later, he kills a prostitute... If I remember right, he was having erection difficulties... Hmm. Forget. But, he then had sex with her corpse and he loved her long time.

Another priceless scene was when the mother began to lactate and squirted breast milk all over the kitchen floor.

Basically, the movie was about healing.
I feel cleansed already. Incest, lactophilia and necrophilia are much more my kind of thing, so I'll be sure to pop that one on the next time the vicar calls round. There isn't too much blood, is there?

Look, I'm in two minds about all this. I know for a fact that, when I've recovered from Ichi, curiosity will kill my cat once again and I'll be peering from behind the couch at Audition or Cannibal Holocaust or some other piece of exploitative, manipulative, cretinous crap that I've so far managed to avoid, knowing, as I watch, that my humanity is being slowly and imperceptibly dissolved until I become a raging beast hellbent on maiming, raping and killing the nurses that mock and tantalise me with their whorish stockings and lipstick as they force-feed me my thrice-daily medication. I see the looming mouth of the abyss clearly but with little power to avoid the coming downfall. Why am I allowing these regressive, puerile, adolescent fantasies of sex and death to destroy my mental health when I could be watching Oliver! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver%21) or It's a Wonderful Life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Wonderful_Life) or something equally uplifting? I don't know, I really don't. The dark half of me is taking over to the point where I don't really know what right and wrong, good and bad, are any more.

I think I need to go and have a lie down. I'm getting one of my headaches.

I very like Pan's Labyrinth, but not because of some bloodier scenes, it's an excellent film on its own.

I dislike tasteless gore that just has the intention to gross out the audience. I myself like artsy films quite much. :)

I don't watch Asian movies anymore. They're totally different and strange world to me. I cannot understand their taste for some things.

I like horrors, but not the tasteless gore as Avatar said.

Dario Argento's movies are great example of how art and gore could be combined with 'taste'. If we could speak about taste... Of course.

Just check out the scene of stabbing in a mouth with English horne or severed head of ballerine that still blinks in "Nonhosonno". Brrrr...

I have yet to see a film that does not pale in comparison with the things that happen in my head.


have you seen irreversible?
there are 2 scenes in that film which i almost couldnt watch.
good film,but i never ever want to see it again.

I don't watch Asian movies anymore. They're totally different and strange world to me. I cannot understand their taste for some things.

I like horrors, but not the tasteless gore as Avatar said.

Dario Argento's movies are great example of how art and gore could be combined with 'taste'. If we could speak about taste... Of course.

Just check out the scene of stabbing in a mouth with English horne or severed head of ballerine that still blinks in "Nonhosonno". Brrrr...

And western horror is tasteful? haha!!

Stories are just stories.

THIS is sick! (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=66996)

have you seen irreversible?
there are 2 scenes in that film which i almost couldnt watch.
good film,but i never ever want to see it again.
(a) the incident in the subway and (b) the incident with the.. um.. yeah. I'd actually forgotten about the first but, yes, I'm still taking my meds for the second.

It is a great film though. I'd watch it again, no probs.

(a) the incident in the subway and (b) the incident with the.. um.. yeah. I'd actually forgotten about the first but, yes, I'm still taking my meds for the second.

It is a great film though. I'd watch it again, no probs.


immediately after watching the film i wanted to see it again,but the more i thought about it the more i didnt want to.

i am still impressed by the (b) part,very good special effects.

its movies like baise moi and salo i have much more of a problem with, they are pretty damn real and are damn sick at the same time. Ichi may be extreme violence but it wears off after a short time. i hated the audition scene with the eye, almost anything to do with eyes make me wince.

I very like Pan's Labyrinth, but not because of some bloodier scenes, it's an excellent film on its own.

I very much agree.
The scene I was referring to with the straight razor was most certaionly not gratuiitous gore, but it was stunningly realistic, in my opinion, which added a great deal to the realism of a magical storyline.
It was brilliantly done.

i hated the audition scene with the eye, almost anything to do with eyes make me wince.

Speaking of...

Opening scene of Salvador Dali's 1929 Un Chien Andalou...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7gYya2aFotc

Yes, 1929!
I can't help but respect the incredible artistry and vision required to pull this off.
It's a beautiful thing.

fuck you!

Really impressive for 1929, no?

Very. I see thedevilsreject shares my delicate stomach. This is reassuring to know.

yeah, now im just going to go have a pepsi

fuck you!

Why did you click?
You knew what it was going to be!:D

And western horror is tasteful? haha!!
You should notice the quotation mark on the 'taste'. :)

Why did you click?
You knew what it was going to be!:D
Cow's eye, right? :bugeye:

Correct. Both of the film's main actors later died in somewhat unusual circumstances. The male actor overdosed - possibly deliberate, possibly accidental. The woman whose eye is cut, meanwhile, fell into a depression and set fire to herself in a public square at the age of 51:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simone_Mareuil

Sounds intereting.
How are the effects?
More often than not I am sorely disappointed in films that others call grotesque and realistic.

Me too. I watched the first few minutes of 'Saw3' where the guy bashed his foot in to get it out of some shackles, and gave up. I just knew it was going to overuse 'shock' and have yet another dismal 'plot'.

Oh, and japanese generally do have sick movies, especially when it concerns sex.


Yeah, is it in 'Tetsuo II' where the guy drills his girlfriend?