There's a lot of comparances of IQ between races out there. But I think it's already proved enough that white (IN AVERAGE) are smarter than blacks, etc. (after all it's quite natural).

However I haven't found or seen any research that compares men to women!

I can only see two different reasons:

1) They're equally smart, which has been proved for long and therefore are not available online.

2) Men are a lot smarter than women and therefore the governments silences it down.

I find number 2 more probable since I've never really met an intelligent girl (at least no one that's close to my own intelligence). Now on the other hand I haven't met a lot of intelligent boys either, but somehow they seem a little, little smarter (because although I've never met someone that matches my own intelligence some of them are quite close).

Also you can see in school that in all subjects that require intelligence (math, physics, etc.), the men are always the best. In boring subjects where it's just about repeating and learning things that you're told - well, girls usually are better (now I'm speaking very average).

So enlighten me, how much more intelligent are men compared to women? :m:

You speak of women and boys... a interisting choise of words.

[generic usual suspects' opinion] [/generic usual suspects' opinion]

Category:Incendiary

Yes lets see if we can have a discussion about who is inferior to who without getting someone angry. Brilliant!

So, men are smarter and whites are smarter (IN AVERAGE)?
I'm guessing, then, that Victor E is a black woman?

There's a lot of comparances...

I find number 2 more probable since I've never really met an intelligent girl (at least no one that's close to my own intelligence). Now on the other hand I haven't met a lot of intelligent boys either, but somehow they seem a little, little smarter (because although I've never met someone that matches my own intelligence some of them are quite close).

God forbid if this is the smartest kid in the school.:eek:
We're fucked.

we all are the same, we all have the same intelligence, whether black or white, men or women, young or old. The only thing that is different is our will power.

we all are the same, we all have the same intelligence, whether black or white, men or women, young or old. The only thing that is different is our will power.

You often say this. What makes you think that George W. Bush is as smart as Stephen Hawking?

You often say this. What makes you think that George W. Bush is as smart as Stephen Hawking?

they have the same Potentials to be the intelligent. They decide how they decide their Power of will, which reflects on their intelligence.

they have the same Potentials to be the intelligent. They decide how they decide their Power of will, which reflects on their intelligence.

Supposition.

Please demonstrate that there is such thing as the "Power of will", and how this reflects intelligence.

I hereby accuse you of making stuff up.

Supposition.

Please demonstrate that there is such thing as the "Power of will", and how this reflects intelligence.

I hereby accuse you of making stuff up.

Power of will? is what we choose ourselves to be. How we live life. How we not bend under Pleasures and strive for ideals.

Have you woken uP everyday and strived everyday closer to achieve a dream? Have you? yes? well than you have a strong will...not to be lazy and not to give uP nevermind the environment which wants to kill you.

Or have you been lazy and ended uP as janitor...like Mr. Genji here?:shrug:

Victor E:

There's a lot of comparances of IQ between races out there. But I think it's already proved enough that white (IN AVERAGE) are smarter than blacks, etc. (after all it's quite natural).

Let me get this straight. Your "proof" that white people are smarter than black people is "It's quite natural"?

Sorry, but you'll have to do a lot better than that. Your prejudices don't constitute evidence, you know.

However I haven't found or seen any research that compares men to women!

It's out there. Look harder.

I can only see two different reasons:

1) They're equally smart, which has been proved for long and therefore are not available online.

2) Men are a lot smarter than women and therefore the governments silences it down.

I find number 2 more probable since I've never really met an intelligent girl...

Again, you argue solely from personal experience.

Have you considered that perhaps intelligent girls want nothing to do with you? Maybe you're just out of their league.

Also you can see in school that in all subjects that require intelligence (math, physics, etc.), the boys are always the best.

Obviously, you have a lot to learn about various subjects. Probably, you've never studied any "liberal arts" subjects such as History, English literature, Sociology, Politics and so on. If you had, you would know that these are not subjects that do not require intelligence.

In boring subjects where it's just about repeating and learning things that you're told - well, girls usually are better (now I'm speaking very average).

Which subjects only require repeating and learning things you're told?

Perhaps you're being poorly educated.

I'm assuming you haven't got to tertiary level yet. I hope you'll get a better perspective if and when you make it to university.

So, men are smarter and whites are smarter (IN AVERAGE)?
I'm guessing, then, that Victor E is a black woman?I'm thinking IceAgeCivilizations and Lightgigantic are twin black, midget nuns.

I'm still waiting for the female Einstein or Socrates or even Woddy Allen.

It seems that tey only palce you can find the elusive genius female is in the 'liberal arts' where appreciation is subjective and where commuinty particiation is taken as requiring genius.

I believe that people do indeed have different IQ levels. But the grey area arises from the multiple intelligences that one possesses. To try to claim one race is more intelligent in IQ tests is to ignore physical prowess, visual skills, critical thinking skills, reflexes, emotional awareness of self and others, and maybe most importantly COMMON SENSE as well as a plethora of additional skills.

Surely you cannot claim one race as more intelligent based on IQ alone?!

It seems that tey only palce you can find the elusive genius female is in the 'liberal arts' where appreciation is subjective and where commuinty particiation is taken as requiring genius.

In my own field of Physics, women have made many fundamentally important contributions, and their influence is increasing all the time.

In my own field of Physics, women have made many fundamentally important contributions, and their influence is increasing all the time."Contribution" sounds like the guy passing the ball to Michael Jordan to peform his magic.

He also "contributes" to the team's victory.

The guy holding Tiger Wood's bag "contributes" to his performance.

When the first revolution in thought occurs, due exclusively to a female mind, I'll consider the possibility, concerning the equality between women and men as the one between races, that it is not a cultural neccesity perpetuated and maintained, just like religious dogma is, through institutional power.

Now this is where you mention the handful of famous women, the exceptions to the rule, to disprove the rule.

I don't know which is sadder hypocrisy or a mind, raised to consider any opinion pointing to a socially uncomfortable reality as being uncivil or evil or prejudiced.

Do you think this inablity to think of the undesirable s just like a christian mind being uanble to escape the notons of 'good' and 'evil'?

The socially uncomfortable reality is that western civilisation has had a long history of devaluing and actively oppressing women so that that they have been unable to impact upon knowledge to the extent of their ability.

Thankfully, that is gradually changing, finally.

I suspect you're just feeling insecure, and want to perpetuate the received patriarchy.

Maybe James R. should continue banning anyone who attempts to think outside 'the box' or who utters an opinion which is not shared by the majority in the culture he exists within.
The illusions that keep society humming along.

That way all that will be left, eventually, are the 'normal' thinkers, like him and his friends, endlessly debating the finer points of who is more righteous and moral or socially disciplined to the status quo and to mediocrity.

Then regurgitaton will replace thought and 'truth' will become the idea which maitnains peace and stablity or that sooths the human soul.

If everyon is created equal then how the hell does evolution work?

Oh wait, the great thinker of stupidity IceAgeCivilizations, has an alternate reality that doesn't insult the administator's fagile social consciousness.
He allows stpidity...but do not insult his social dogma.

Who said religion?

The socially uncomfortable reality is that western civilisation has had a long history of devaluing and actively oppressing women so that that they have been unable to impact upon knowledge to the extent of their ability.

Thankfully, that is gradually changing, finally.

I suspect you're just feeling insecure, and want to perpetuate the received patriarchy.Yes, that is one plausible explanation.
Maybe I'm bitter towards women because I can't get laid.
Good intelligent point.
Thanks for placing da bar so high.

Like I said we'll await the next female phenom to prove the fact.

The excuse you use has been used and reused and overused.
The negro uses a similar excuse, which does not explain the many other nationalities and racial groups that thrive and overcome their own adversities.
Jesus how long will the repercussions of slavery last?
Well until the tests are made so as to allow everyone to pass. Nobody deserves to have thir feelings hurt by reality.

How long the oppresison" excuse will be used, I don't know.

If anyhting oppression motivates someone to either overcome and grow or to perish trying.

I tink you are a perfect administrator for the quality of thinking that goes on aroud here.
Keep up the good work.
Eventually you'll have a bunch of children and imbeciles exchanging flirts and kisses around here.

But why call it "Intelligent Community".
False advertisement.

Satyr:

You know, agreeing to disagree is always an option. You don't need to "win" a contest with me, or I with you.

If you can't think of a good refutation for my arguments, reducing yourself to taking jibes at my character is just tacky, don't you think?

Maybe James R. should continue banning anyone who attempts to think outside 'the box' or who utters an opinion which is not shared by the majority in the culture he exists within.

It's funny you should say that, since on all the evidence I seem to hold a number of opinions which are quite uncommon in the "culture" we have here. Maybe it is me who is thinking outside the box. I wonder why you find that so objectionable.

If everyone is created equal then how the hell does evolution work?

I've never claimed that everyone is created equal, if by "equal" you mean "the same". Such a claim would be unrealistic and naive in the extreme.

Yes that is one plausible explanation.
Like I said we'll await the next female phenom to prove the fact.

You're right.

I tink you are a perfect administrator for the quality of thinking that goes o aroud here.

If sciforums doesn't meet your high standards, is there nowhere else you can go that's more suited to your temperament?

Keep up the good work.
eventually you'll have a bunch of children and imbeciles excanging flirts, around here.

Oh, we already have that, to some extent. Ain't diversity grand?

Satyr:

You know, agreeing to disagree is always an option. You don't need to "win" a contest with me, or I with you.

If you can't think of a good refutation for my arguments, reducing yourself to taking jibes at my character is just tacky, don't you think?
Here is something far more “tacky”:
I suspect you're just feeling insecure, and want to perpetuate the received patriarchy.
How nicely you set the standard for this entire site.

Patriarchy?
Why do men dominate?
An accident?

Let us explore who’s feeling “vulnerable” shall we?

Social behavior amongst animals is a product of inadequacy.
Organisms bond and cooperate, when they cannot function or survive on their own.
It is weakness that drives entities together.

How is this bonding and cooperation maintained and harmonized?
Through repression and indoctrination, where an individual is subjugated to communal law using instinct (love, let us say) and morality and cultural norms.

You defending the community is you defending your dependence on it.
Shall I go on?

I don’t think so.
It’s a waste of time.

I return you to your regularly scheduled banter.

It's funny you should say that, since on all the evidence I seem to hold a number of opinions which are quite uncommon in the "culture" we have here. Maybe it is me who is thinking outside the box. I wonder why you find that so objectionable.And?
Does holding one “uncommon” opinion make you a rebel or a free-thinker?

I've never claimed that everyone is created equal, if by "equal" you mean "the same". Such a claim would be unrealistic and naive in the extreme.No, Equal as in: Equal potential.
“The same” means a tautology, a clone.

If sciforums doesn't meet your high standards, is there nowhere else you can go that's more suited to your temperament?Oh how eloquently you show me the door.
Who said that I have not found it?

I come here for entertainment…ergo my moniker is Satyr.

Oh, we already have that, to some extent. Ain't diversity grand?Congratulations, you picked up on the sarcasm.

Now return to scanning for opinions mommy or daddy told you were evil thoughts and censor them.

Here’s a way censorship works unconsciously:
An opinion is made shameful. The mind feels embarrassed just considering it.

The goal is achieved.
Censorship under the guise of free-thought.

There's a lot of comparances of IQ between races out there. But I think it's already proved enough that white (IN AVERAGE) are smarter than blacks, etc. (after all it's quite natural).

Hello? Victor E? We're waiting for your explanation of this absurd statement. Or have you realized your own folly here with this prejudicial remark?

Satyr:

Patriarchy?
Why do men dominate?
An accident?

Men dominate largely because of greater physical strength and possibly a greater propensity for violence.

Social behavior amongst animals is a product of inadequacy.
Organisms bond and cooperate, when they cannot function or survive on their own.
It is weakness that drives entities together.

That's half of the equation. The other half is mutual benefit. Organisms bond and cooperate because by doing so they benefit in ways that they would not benefit by staying separate.

Cooperation is often a win-win situation for both parties. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

How is this bonding and cooperation maintained and harmonized?
Through repression and indoctrination, where an individual is subjugated to communal law using instinct (love, let us say) and morality and cultural norms.

Bonding and cooperation also occurs by choice. Altruism is common in nature.

You defending the community is you defending your dependence on it.

We're all dependent on communities. I would certainly struggle to survive on my own, and I suspect you would too. I see no reason to apologise for my reliance on other people. No man is an island.

Does holding one “uncommon” opinion make you a rebel or a free-thinker?

Did I claim it did?

No, Equal as in: Equal potential.

Equal potential to do what? Everybody has different talents, strengths and weaknesses.

Oh how eloquently you show me the door.

Just reminding you it is there. Nobody has kidnapped you and forced you to stay here.

I come here for entertainment…ergo my moniker is Satyr.

May I suggest then, that when you cease to be entertained, that might be a good time to stop. We wouldn't want you turning into a grumpy old man now, would we?

Now return to scanning for opinions mommy or daddy told you were evil thoughts and censor them.

You badly underestimate me if you imagine that this is the sole basis for the opinions I hold.

Here’s a way censorship works unconsciously:
An opinion is made shameful. The mind feels embarrassed just considering it.

Are you in favour of unrestrained "free speech", then? Shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre ought to be permissible?

omg , a lot of answers. And most of them misunderstood me. I'm not saying THAT WOMEN ARE LESS INTELLIGENT. ALL I'M SAYING IS THAT I WANT TO KNOW IF THEY ARE OR NOT.

Please provide me with a research! I've stated a hypothesis and nothing more, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm telling you what I think. If someone has information please link it to me. Don't say "It's out there.." I mean wtf?

And to those that say bush is equally smart as hawkings, blacks equally smart with whites etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_wealth_of_nations


I mean people always react strong to this type of stuff. But it's like the theories about determination. People don't want to believe that there's nothing like free will, and they don't want to believe that some are smarter than other.

That some races are more intelligent than others just has to do with the fact of evolution. I want to know if this is true about genders as well, which I suspect.

I don't think this has been mentioned already, but it seems a very obvious point. Our minds are wired differently - men are better at some things, women are better at others. It's a well known fact and is supported by evolution. What is controversal is what constitutes intelligence? Men are better at thinking outside the box, at invention and ideas...whereas women are better at multi-tasking...juggling domestic things...and such

edit: And James R you strike me as someone who has led a very sheltered life. You are so quick to accuse others of such prejudices, yet you cannot even see past your own

What prejudices are you referring to, Just_Not_There? Be specific.

I vaguely remember an article by the APA which concluded that IQ differences for men and women within the same race were small (plus or minus 1-3 points), with a noticeable difference in mathematical and spatial ability in favor of men.

A lot of intelligence is enviromental and nuture. However, I agree with Victor E for the most part. The important factor is that women and men have different socio-cultural and emotional priorities. Some women are smarter than men in deductive reasoning, Marie Curie was a brilliant Nuclear chemist who managed to contribute in the discovery of radiation. I also met a few women that are excellent engineers. I think there is a sort of unspoken manifesto that men should dominate certain aspects of the society and women should dominate the other. The natural movement of all system is towards entropy, but specialization is usually what creates a certain parttern. I persoanlly don't think the comparing of women to men is rational or fair.

Some women are smarter than men in deductive reasoning, Marie Curie was a brilliant Nuclear chemist who managed to contribute in the discovery of radiation. I also met a few women that are excellent engineers.

The key word here is "some": Curie and others with superior deductive reasoning are simply exceptions to the rule. It is akin to saying some very short people can dunk a basket-ball. Yes, it's true... but it's also true that they're an extremely negligible percentage of the bell curve.

Satyr:



Men dominate largely because of greater physical strength and possibly a greater propensity for violence.That, sir, is a sexist and hateful remark.
We all know that men and women are equally endowed in every aspect.
Are derogatory remarks focused on males acceptable and anything said about women is not?
Are white men fair game where as any reference to blackness is shameful?

Let me see, our resident expert on thinking, is using dualism to defend a viewpoint; the mind/body myth where everything different is but physical and the mind is universal and similar in every manifestation.

Let me ask:
If a gender can exhibit a difference in physical attributes then why does it not also exhibit a difference in mental attributes?
Are we to say, then, that we are prejudiced towards certain minds because they look different and belong to a different species? Isn’t this, using your reasoning, not also prejudiced thinking?
Are physical characteristics indicative of something, do they project outwardly a hidden potential; is there a thing-in-itself, a soul seperate from appearance and physicality and body?
If matter is a temporal manifestation then what is mind?

I guess the crux of the matter is: Is appearance separate from essence.
If so then where is this elusive ‘self’ housed?

That's half of the equation. The other half is mutual benefit. Organisms bond and cooperate because by doing so they benefit in ways that they would not benefit by staying separate.Why?

Cooperation is often a win-win situation for both parties. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.The whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts when the parts are adequately subjugated to the whole.

An ant is harmonized within an ant colony because it lacks personality or free-thought to resist or to become disruptive or challenging to the whole. It simply follows its own needs and surrenders to them.
Its evolutionary path developed in a way where the solitary ant, or its ancestor, never got to develop on its own as a distinct entity.

With human beings things get more complicated.
Here personality, character, free-thought must me molded and suppressed to where it becomes completely subjugated and dependant on the whole.
There must have been a period where man’s ancestor evolved as a solitary organism. It was an environmental alteration that forced an evolutionary necessity that united man with other beings of his own kind.

Here is the resistance of freedom to necessity or need.
Survival wins out, most of the time.

Bonding and cooperation also occurs by choice. Altruism is common in nature.Indeed, because all is lacking and so dependant.

Nature is a product of a universe in flux; a universe lacking.

Altruism is the end result on a failure.
A new organism evolves and is unable to function on its own, because it is lacking.
It then becomes absorbed in a greater whole, attempting to find perfection through unity.

Altruism and love are mechanisms of bonding and subjugation.

But is not man the mind that tries to overcome nature?
Are you suggesting that we should surrender to whatever nature dictates and not to seek out self- control and ascendance?

Is the only ascendance you perceive that of conformity and through association?
Oh, how un-free you are.

We're all dependent on communities. I would certainly struggle to survive on my own, and I suspect you would too. I see no reason to apologise for my reliance on other people. No man is an island.If your inability to function on your own does not shame you, then you really don’t like yourself, do you?
Find solace and happiness in others then.
You are dependant on others for everything, even for self-identity.

This is how need becomes ‘truth’ or virtuous.
An organism takes its own subjective interests and constructs a virtue which flatters and maintains them.

Equal potential to do what? Everybody has different talents, strengths and weaknesses.To think.
We aren’t involved in athletic competition her, or in a song writing contest. We are involved – or some of us pretend to be – in exchanging thoughts.

So, returning to the subject: Are women the equals of men in thought?

Just reminding you it is there. Nobody has kidnapped you and forced you to stay here.Thank you.
I’ll stay as much as I want and leave when I want to.

May I suggest then, that when you cease to be entertained, that might be a good time to stop. We wouldn't want you turning into a grumpy old man now, would we?Oh how you throw out insults, immersing them in subtlety.
Am I “old”?

Perhaps you might fair better against the juveniles you discipline with your feigned civility and aloof reasonableness or against the child-brains spewing inanities and pretending they are involved in rational thinking.

A children’s forum.

You badly underestimate me if you imagine that this is the sole basis for the opinions I hold.We shall see.

Are you in favour of unrestrained "free speech", then? Shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theatre ought to be permissible?Well if you are to exclude the ones shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater then maybe you should consider excluding those that shout “Magic!” as well.
If you do otherwise then you’ll be left with a theater full of imbeciles.

Oh wait…that’s what you have here.

I believe that people do indeed have different IQ levels. But the grey area arises from the multiple intelligences that one possesses. To try to claim one race is more intelligent in IQ tests is to ignore physical prowess, visual skills, critical thinking skills, reflexes, emotional awareness of self and others, and maybe most importantly COMMON SENSE as well as a plethora of additional skills.

Reality Check.

Satyr:

That, sir, is a sexist and hateful remark.
We all know that men and women are equally endowed in every aspect.

I have never made such a claim.

Let me see, our resident expert on thinking, is using dualism to defend a viewpoint; the mind/body myth where everything different is but physical and the mind is universal and similar in every manifestation.

Who is doing that? Not me. I don't believe in the dualism you're talking about.

If a gender can exhibit a difference in physical attributes then why does it not also exhibit a difference in mental attributes?

It can, and probably does.

Are we to say, then, that we are prejudiced towards certain minds because they look different and belong to a different species? Isn’t this, using your reasoning, not also prejudiced thinking?

Certainly.

Are physical characteristics indicative of something, do they project outwardly a hidden potential; is there a thing-in-itself, a soul seperate from appearance and physicality and body?

I don't see any evidence for a soul.

If matter is a temporal manifestation then what is mind?

Mind is most likely a product of matter, in my opinion.

I guess the crux of the matter is: Is appearance separate from essence.
If so then where is this elusive ‘self’ housed?

This is a rather big can of worms.

The whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts when the parts are adequately subjugated to the whole.

You're missing the point. This is agreed co-operation, not coersion.

An ant is harmonized within an ant colony because it lacks personality or free-thought to resist or to become disruptive or challenging to the whole. It simply follows its own needs and surrenders to them.
Its evolutionary path developed in a way where the solitary ant, or its ancestor, never got to develop on its own as a distinct entity.

You've probably never looked closely at individual ants. You think of them as identical and interchangeable. They are not. You need to look closer, perhaps.

There must have been a period where man’s ancestor evolved as a solitary organism. It was an environmental alteration that forced an evolutionary necessity that united man with other beings of his own kind.

I doubt there was ever a period in the evolution of Homo sapiens where people did not live in groups. Human beings are puny, weak creatures in physical terms. We have always needed to work together to survive as a species, and that is as true today as it was 100,000 years ago.

Altruism is the end result on a failure.
A new organism evolves and is unable to function on its own, because it is lacking.

You seem indoctrinated with the kind of extreme liberalism common in Americans today. For you, the individual is paramount, and I doubt you can conceive of a different way to structure your life or your society. But there are alternatives.

Altruism and love are mechanisms of bonding and subjugation.

Not everything is about power. I must say that I find your perpective somewhat depressing and nihilistic.

But is not man the mind that tries to overcome nature?
Are you suggesting that we should surrender to whatever nature dictates and not to seek out self- control and ascendance?

Again, it doesn't have to be about power. Perhaps it is possible to work with nature rather than in opposition to nature. Doing so doesn't mean we "lose" a battle or give up self-control.

Is the only ascendance you perceive that of conformity and through association?
Oh, how un-free you are.

Is the only ascendance you perceive that of individualism at any cost? I'm not convinced you're more free than me.

If your inability to function on your own does not shame you, then you really don’t like yourself, do you?

Let me guess. You live in a house built by other people. The computer you are using to read this was made by others, and you could not build it yourself single-handedly even if you dedicated your entire life to the task. The electricity you are using right now is not generated by you, nor do you maintain the required infrastructure. The food you eat is not grown by you. The fuel you use is not dug out of the ground by you.

Are you ashamed by your own failure to function on your own, then?

Find solace and happiness in others then.
You are dependant on others for everything, even for self-identity.

Well, not everything, but close enough. So are you.

To think.
We aren’t involved in athletic competition her, or in a song writing contest. We are involved – or some of us pretend to be – in exchanging thoughts.

So, returning to the subject: Are women the equals of men in thought?

Every field of human endeavour that has admitted women in recent times, having denied them participation for centuries, has benefited from their input and ideas. Whole areas of human enquiry have opened up which previously were given little, if any, attention.

I see no reason to suspect that women are less capable of thought than men. In my personal life, I find that women often have quite different and useful ways of approaching problems compared to men, and accessing their different perspectives is both valuable and useful.

Oh how you throw out insults, immersing them in subtlety.
Am I “old”?

I didn't say you were old. Is being old a bad thing, then?

Perhaps you might fair better against the juveniles you discipline with your feigned civility and aloof reasonableness or against the child-brains spewing inanities and pretending they are involved in rational thinking.

Are we having a contest again?

It doesn't really matter. I mean I understand things better than a lot of guys and a lot of guys understand things better than me. Same goes for race. This is really silly, I think.

Any women know how to file there tax returns,I don't have a clue. Its all like a maze and I end up nowhere, I hate this . I have been going over papers and on-line account constantly and I still do not know what is on the go. It is supost to be done but I just get confused and angry.

... I just get confused and angry.

And then they fine you for not filing on time. :bawl:

It doesn't really matter. I mean I understand things better than a lot of guys and a lot of guys understand things better than me. Same goes for race. This is really silly, I think.

Of course it's silly, but after all, it would be so funny if men were not just stronger but also smarter, wouldn't it? :D

Okay, who cares? Is the average really that important? Intellegence is something that ought to be determined on a case by case basis. Generalizations like this don't matter, except in certain cases. If I wanted to date someone of high intellegence, well, there are only a few to choose from, however if a girl wants to date someone smart, they are generally more in luck. With exceptions, generalizations don't matter.

And of course, the elite of the elite upper echelon is dominated by men, and that is far more important then averages. It certainly isn't about women being suppressed, I actually think it is an issue of aggressiveness. Edison, I mean, slept like three hours a night. Ray Bradbury wrote the first draft of fahrenheit 451 in nine days. Men, it seems, are more prone to fits of passion where they completly devote themselves to something, wheras women are more passive. An example I can think of is how jazz is male dominated and classical performance is female dominated. Hardly any women can improvise worth jack, however many can perform a beautiful piano solo, which was probably written by a man. I don't know, it is interesting. I need to leave high school and meet more intellegent women before my opinion is credible though.

What prejudices are you referring to, Just_Not_There? Be specific.

Your notions that everybody is equal. All colours and creeds and sexes and ages and...you are delusional if you consider we are all the same. And it is laughable how you can continue to press the point despite all the overwhelming evidence stacking up from all sides to the contrary

edit: ...

Just_Not_There:

Your notions that everybody is equal. All colours and creeds and sexes and ages and...you are delusional if you consider we are all the same.

I specifically countered that misconception in one of my replies to Satyr, above.

For the record, I do not believe everybody is "the same". I do, however, advocate equal rights and equality of opportunity for men and women.

And it is laughable how you can continue to press the point despite all the overwhelming evidence stacking up from all sides to the contrary

What evidence? Be specific.

Equal opportunity as it relates to education is a waste of time: are you going to give the same amount of attention to both the gifted and the retarded? It looks like a terrible waste of energy to attempt making the latter productive members of society, especially considering how much output and potential the former have by comparison. Your thoughts?

These IQ comparisons tend to prompt self-actualizing predictions. I know many people who when exemplified would throw all of Victor E's opening statement out the window.

IMO, intelligence potential is always equal to any medically sound brain. What might occur is that either breeding or other environmental factors may segregate race/gender etc to pursuit of fields that may skew statistics (hence the self-actualization). Disclaimer: bear in mind that this is just my first reaction on this thread... :)

With the proper training, any functional human can achieve in any academic field.

Funny, psychologists and psychometricians have come to a very different conclusion. The only reason threads like this keep being created is due to complete ignorance or misunderstanding of psychometrics.

Is it clear what the IQ test actually measures? There are differences on scores on IQ tests between men and women. This cannot be disputed:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4183166.stm

But do IQ tests actually do a good job of measuring IQ? Well, yes supposedly because IQ is defined by the test:) The better question is, does IQ measure accurately intelligence?

Richard Feynman, one of the greatest physicists of the 20th century, was consistently outpreformed by his sister in IQ tests. But he revolutionized the way that people interpretted quantum mechanics, and she is just known as "Feynman's sister".

Richard Feynman, one of the greatest physicists of the 20th century, was consistently outpreformed by his sister in IQ tests. But he revolutionized the way that people interpretted quantum mechanics, and she is just known as "Feynman's sister".

As a matter of fact, his IQ was 120 or so... somewhere around that range. That doesn't compare to other's like Issac Newton whose IQ was 180 or so.

I'm curious, how do we know Newtons IQ?

Newton was a nutter. If he was on this forum right now he would probably be best buddies with IAC.

I'm curious, how do we know Newtons IQ?

Estimating. I think they probably go through notes of his and estimate his IQ based on what the average guy in a certain IQ bracket would be capable of.

As a matter of fact, his IQ was 120 or so

I never knew this. I just thought his sister had a huge IQ.

So, whatever IQ measures, it obvisouly isn't intelligence. But whatever it is, white males are better at it than anybody else.

I never knew this. I just thought his sister had a huge IQ.

So, whatever IQ measures, it obvisouly isn't intelligence. But whatever it is, white males are better at it than anybody else.

Except asian males caught up in the educational ratrace in the US.

As a matter of fact, his IQ was 120 or so... somewhere around that range. That doesn't compare to other's like Issac Newton whose IQ was 180 or so.

120 was a composite score of his verbal and mathematical abilities on one particular test: the latter was in the 140-150 range, so it's not quite fair to say "Feynman had an IQ of 120"... on a test like the Ravens, he would easily score over three deviations.

120 was a composite score of his verbal and mathematical abilities on one particular test: the latter was in the 140-150 range, so it's not quite fair to say "Feynman had an IQ of 120"... on a test like the Ravens, he would easily score over three deviations.

Well I did not know that. Where I read this made no mention of the test.

Thank you.

Either way, he was a helluva guy :)

they have the same Potentials to be the intelligent. They decide how they decide their Power of will, which reflects on their intelligence.
People are born with a certain potential. They can move up or down a bit thru effort. But biology decides the potential for intellegence.

I'm not minimizing the importance of willpower, but you can no more "will" yourself more intellegent than will yourself a larger penis.

According to them, everyone is born with the same genetic material... so technically, we should all grow to be the same height, have exactly the same body type (mesomorph, blah blah), blond hair, blue eyes... wait, you mean we don't look the same? What in the hell makes you think we develop the same intellectual abilities and limitations then? Sorry kids, not everybody grows up to become an astronaut. Would you like fries with that pearl of wisdom?

:)

In theory, men lead by 5 IQ points or so... I wouldn't waste much time on it, nor the black/white IQ differences. Society works best when everyone's pulling in the same cultural direction, so white/black societies will never work (and they're failing worldwide).

There's a lot of comparances of IQ between races out there. But I think it's already proved enough that white (IN AVERAGE) are smarter than blacks, etc. (after all it's quite natural).


Where’s your evidence? Studies on this have been performed as far as thirty years ago and since then, correlating with the increase in opportunities for African-Americans, the IQ test results have gradually risen. There seems to be no evidence that your beliefs are “natural” or that the difference between white and black IQ scores are grounded in biology.

However I haven't found or seen any research that compares men to women!


There actually have been quite a few studies; the conclusion has been that while there are a greater amount of males than females with below average IQ’s there are also a greater amount of males than females with above average IQ’s. Indeed, the title of genius is almost exclusively populated by males. In short, while females tend to stay straight in the middle of the bell curve, being mostly of average intelligence, the male population is a lot more distributed, with a greater amount of both geniuses and retards. The reason for this however is not completely known. IQ tests largely measure logical ability. When noting this it’s important to take into account that from a young age females are driven away from scientific and mathematical pursuits. More people are going to buy their sons spatial and logical toys such as building blocks and chemistry sets then their daughters. Likewise, subconscious biases from teachers, peers, and even parents cause a great deal of affect on the average female’s perception of how good they are at science. Though male and female interest in science and math stay close enough before puberty, most girls lose interest in it by age eleven; it is not a lifelong state.


I find number 2 more probable since I've never really met an intelligent girl (at least no one that's close to my own intelligence). Now on the other hand I haven't met a lot of intelligent boys either, but somehow they seem a little, little smarter (because although I've never met someone that matches my own intelligence some of them are quite close).


Anecdotal evidence is near worthless in science. Just ask the local UFO wacko.

they have the same Potentials to be the intelligent. They decide how they decide their Power of will, which reflects on their intelligence.

Do you honestly believed that a retarded person can’t size up to Einstein simply because he’s lazy and isn’t trying hard enough? Keep in mind that there are differences in the very brain structure between different people.

I suspect you're just feeling insecure, and want to perpetuate the received patriarchy.

Well, there’s no need to make personal accusations and attacks.


The excuse you use has been used and reused and overused.
The negro uses a similar excuse, which does not explain the many other nationalities and racial groups that thrive and overcome their own adversities.
Jesus how long will the repercussions of slavery last?
Well until the tests are made so as to allow everyone to pass. Nobody deserves to have thir feelings hurt by reality.


The “negro” has only in the last forty years received social status as a human being. The same racists that dehumanized them are still alive today. Despite being free from slavery, African-Americans had been discriminated against not only by the state through such acts as Jim Crow Laws but also by the citizens surrounding them. One must not only look at the tyranny that a group went through but also the lingering affects of that tyranny as well. Even today, African-Americans are discriminated against; black males, upstanding or not, have particularly found it harder to receive a job. The confidence affect I’ve noted above also of course plays into this. Either way, progress throughout the African-American community isn’t homogeneous. African-American female college graduation rates are high above those of their male counterparts. The same stereotypes I’ve mentioned before undoubtedly have an affect on this. Note as well that black men are more likely to be pulled over for the sole crime of being black than people of other races; this phenomenon is satirically referred to as the crime of “Driving While Black”. Like the negative attitudes aimed at females, racism also seems to exist subconsciously in society greatly affecting the progress of impoverished blacks today.

James R: Men dominate largely because of greater physical strength and possibly a greater propensity for violence.

Something such as simple physical strength could never ensure domination in modern times. In these days, battles are not fought on fields but in offices. Bill Gates didn’t reach the top of the economic world based on how many muscles he has. Likewise, even the greatest of athletes such as Michael Jordan can’t reach the level of power that such a man wields, to have power over the mind and money of thousands of consumers and to use one’s intellect to win the game. It has been as such ever since humans traded in their evolutionary brawn, and the majority of natural defenses with it (ex. claws, fur, etc.) for brains.

It is fact that the average male IQ and the average female IQ are exactly the same. Generally, men are better at maths and science, while women are better at languages and general knowledge. I'm a girl, and my own IQ is nearly 160, and I can do university level maths (I'm 14), but I will admit that men are better at maths and science, because they are more logical. It is usually believed that intelligence is logic, but intelligence is just brain power, and it can take the form of good memory, which women are much better at.

It's important to remember that while intelligence is genetic, it is also increased by learning, so in countries where females have less educational opportunities, the men will be more intelligent.

But in first-world, developed countries which have gender-equality, the IQ scores on average between men and women are the exact same.

Indeed, the title of genius is almost exclusively populated by males.

I'm female, and I have an intelligence only enjoyed by one in ten thousand of the population. I think it has something to do with the toys young children play with though. I constantly rejected dolls as a child, and stole my brother's building blocks and lego. I think those kind of toys stimulate intelligence.

You're saying that the IQs of men are more dispersed, but you have to remember that the rates of autism and aspergers are much, much higher in boys. People with autism are not more intelligent, but they are deprived of social intelligence and have more logical intelligence and good memories. But the IQ test doesn't test on social intelligence, which is an intelligence. So people with autism score extremely high on IQ tests, but do not have the brain ability to feel comfortable in a conversation. This could be the reason why most of the people who score 'genius' on IQ tests are male.

Indeed, the title of genius is almost exclusively populated by males.

I'm female, and I have an intelligence only enjoyed by one in ten thousand of the population. I think it has something to do with the toys young children play with though. I constantly rejected dolls as a child, and stole my brother's building blocks and lego. I also loved jigsaw puzzles. I think those kind of toys stimulate intelligence.

I'm female, and I have an intelligence only enjoyed by one in ten thousand of the population. I think it has something to do with the toys young children play with though. I constantly rejected dolls as a child, and stole my brother's building blocks and lego. I also loved jigsaw puzzles. I think those kind of toys stimulate intelligence.

You are confusing correlation with causation. It is impossible to prove that you became more intelligent DUE to your choice of toys and whether you chose those toys BECAUSE you were already above-average intelligence.

As a scientist, I would have to say that the latter choice is more likely. Especially since twin studies and adoption studies show at MINIMUM .50 genetic correlation with intelligence and at MAX a .25 correlation with intelligence and environment. There is a .25 which is unaccounted for by current theory, but Judith Harris has some bright ideas which should be tested soon.

I'm female, and I have an intelligence only enjoyed by one in ten thousand of the population. I think it has something to do with the toys young children play with though. I constantly rejected dolls as a child, and stole my brother's building blocks and lego. I also loved jigsaw puzzles. I think those kind of toys stimulate intelligence.

Maybe you chose the "smart toys" because you were smart to begin with. Not the other way around. There is a very powerful genetic component to IQ. Studies have indicated a heritability for IQ at about .8 in the Western world.

There's a lot of comparances of IQ between races out there. But I think it's already proved enough that white (IN AVERAGE) are smarter than blacks, etc. (after all it's quite natural).

However I haven't found or seen any research that compares men to women!

I can only see two different reasons:

1) They're equally smart, which has been proved for long and therefore are not available online.

2) Men are a lot smarter than women and therefore the governments silences it down.

I find number 2 more probable since I've never really met an intelligent girl (at least no one that's close to my own intelligence). Now on the other hand I haven't met a lot of intelligent boys either, but somehow they seem a little, little smarter (because although I've never met someone that matches my own intelligence some of them are quite close).

Also you can see in school that in all subjects that require intelligence (math, physics, etc.), the men are always the best. In boring subjects where it's just about repeating and learning things that you're told - well, girls usually are better (now I'm speaking very average).

So enlighten me, how much more intelligent are men compared to women? :m:


dude,you're a fucking idiot.
and as i have said before IQ tests mean very little

There's a lot of comparances of IQ between races out there. But I think it's already proved enough that white (IN AVERAGE) are smarter than blacks, etc. (after all it's quite natural).

However I haven't found or seen any research that compares men to women!

I can only see two different reasons:

1) They're equally smart, which has been proved for long and therefore are not available online.

2) Men are a lot smarter than women and therefore the governments silences it down.

I find number 2 more probable since I've never really met an intelligent girl (at least no one that's close to my own intelligence). Now on the other hand I haven't met a lot of intelligent boys either, but somehow they seem a little, little smarter (because although I've never met someone that matches my own intelligence some of them are quite close).

Also you can see in school that in all subjects that require intelligence (math, physics, etc.), the men are always the best. In boring subjects where it's just about repeating and learning things that you're told - well, girls usually are better (now I'm speaking very average).

So enlighten me, how much more intelligent are men compared to women? :m:

Idiot!

"How to impress us ladies and ensure the survival of your genes" - Honey, go blow yourself.

There's a lot of comparances of IQ between races out there. But I think it's already proved enough that white (IN AVERAGE) are smarter than blacks, etc. (after all it's quite natural).

However I haven't found or seen any research that compares men to women!

I can only see two different reasons:

1) They're equally smart, which has been proved for long and therefore are not available online.

2) Men are a lot smarter than women and therefore the governments silences it down.

I find number 2 more probable since I've never really met an intelligent girl (at least no one that's close to my own intelligence). Now on the other hand I haven't met a lot of intelligent boys either, but somehow they seem a little, little smarter (because although I've never met someone that matches my own intelligence some of them are quite close).

Also you can see in school that in all subjects that require intelligence (math, physics, etc.), the men are always the best. In boring subjects where it's just about repeating and learning things that you're told - well, girls usually are better (now I'm speaking very average).

So enlighten me, how much more intelligent are men compared to women? :m:

You've never met a girl close to your own intelligence? Ever? No wonder, sure, she'd have to be really, really, really thick...

Victor E, I presume you've had your intelligence tested, just what is your IQ?

But I think it's already proved enough that white (IN AVERAGE) are smarter than blacks, etc. (after all it's quite natural).

However I haven't found or seen any research that compares men to women!

I can only see two different reasons:

1) They're equally smart, which has been proved for long and therefore are not available online.

2) Men are a lot smarter than women and therefore the governments silences it down.

I find number 2 more probable since I've never really met an intelligent girl (at least no one that's close to my own intelligence). Now on the other hand I haven't met a lot of intelligent boys either, but somehow they seem a little, little smarter (because although I've never met someone that matches my own intelligence some of them are quite close).

Also you can see in school that in all subjects that require intelligence (math, physics, etc.), the men are always the best. In boring subjects where it's just about repeating and learning things that you're told - well, girls usually are better (now I'm speaking very average).

So enlighten me, how much more intelligent are men compared to women? :m:


Whites are slightly smarter than blacks, but asians are slightly smarter than whites, you left that out.

There's plenty of research that compares men to women - the average score on IQ tests is the same but with varying types of intelligences.

Why would governments 'silence it down'?

How could governments 'silence it down'? Most of this research today isn't directly government run.

You've never met an intelligent girl? What are you in prison?

All subjects require intelligence. May I remind you that those 'boring subjects' require a good memory, which is a factor of intelligence?

And may I remind you that you cannot say 'men are always the best' at maths and science? I'm a girl and I have never met anyone my age as good at maths as me (male or female).

So enlighten me, how much more intelligent are men compared to women? :m:

You're obviously too dumb to be enlightened.

I'm female, and I have an intelligence only enjoyed by one in ten thousand of the population. I think it has something to do with the toys young children play with though. I constantly rejected dolls as a child, and stole my brother's building blocks and lego. I also loved jigsaw puzzles. I think those kind of toys stimulate intelligence.

It sounds more likely then that these toys attracts intelligent people. I can't see how certain toys would make you intelligent (or at least not lego, maybe doing puzzles, etc. has a positive effect on your brain)


Whites are slightly smarter than blacks, but asians are slightly smarter than whites, you left that out.

That's true. I'm well aware of that.

There's plenty of research that compares men to women - the average score on IQ tests is the same but with varying types of intelligences.
Please provide research results and define "varying types of intelligence".

Why would governments 'silence it down'?

Because of the same resons they silence down the difference between different races?

You've never met an intelligent girl? What are you in prison?

I have, I don't know why I wrote that :D maybe just to provoce ;)

All subjects require intelligence. May I remind you that those 'boring subjects' require a good memory, which is a factor of intelligence?

True, memorizing is something that takes time though, no matter how good you are. Some might just need to read through a paper once to be able to recall it. Some may need to read through it ten times. But maybe the first person doesn't bother to read through the paper even once. While the other persons reads through it ten times and then scores better on a test and receives a better grade.

Therefore these subjects aren't very suitable to look at when comparing intelligence.

And may I remind you that you cannot say 'men are always the best' at maths and science? I'm a girl and I have never met anyone my age as good at maths as me (male or female).

I'm sorry, I didn't intend to insult you. Actually when re-reading what I wrote I realise that I wrote some really stupid things :D


I'll make some changes:

Yes, I have met intelligent girls. No I don't believe that men are generally better than women. But yes, I'd like to see researches where IQ has been compared!

“ Originally Posted by Victor E
So enlighten me, how much more intelligent are men compared to women? ”

You're obviously too dumb to be enlightened.

Was that neccesary? ;P

Please provide research results and define "varying types of intelligence".



Because of the same resons they silence down the difference between different races?




there is a kind of intelligence (EQ,emotional intelligence) which a lot of people (me included) think is as important,if not more important than IQ.
IQ test are massively flawed and massively culturally biased.


it think her point was that "silence down" does not make sense.

there is a kind of intelligence (EQ,emotional intelligence) which a lot of people (me included) think is as important,if not more important than IQ.
IQ test are massively flawed and massively culturally biased.


it think her point was that "silence down" does not make sense.

Indeed, people with high EQ tend to think that's as important as IQ. And maybe it is! But EQ isn't very useful when it comes to solving the big problems of our time - I mean, how useful is EQ when finding out how to solve the global warming problem?

there is a kind of intelligence (EQ,emotional intelligence) which a lot of people (me included) think is as important,if not more important than IQ.
IQ test are massively flawed and massively culturally biased.


it think her point was that "silence down" does not make sense.

Not surprisingly, the people who score high on EQ tests think that EQ is important, and IQ tests are all flawed. And people who score high on IQ tests think that IQ is important, and EQ is a meaningless metric developed by people with low IQ.

Shocking.

IQ tests work. But it is debatable whether or not they mean anything. Here's why: When you take an IQ test, all your score indicates is where you fall in the population of people taking the test. When an IQ test is made up, there is no way of knowing what a perfect score means. Or how much each question should be worth. You don't know until you have a large and diverse sample of people take the test.

Let's say 1,000 people take a new IQ test. The test has 10 questions. Half the people get 5 questions correct. One quarter get 7 correct and the final quarter get 3 correct. That means that the mean and mode are both 5, and this score correlates with an IQ of 100. A 100 IQ is just a starting-point for IQ. It is a round number large enough to have lower and higher scores. What is significant is how many standard deviations your score is from the the norm. For most IQ tests, a standard deviation is 15 points. So, an IQ of 130 would be two standard deviations from the norm, and put that person in the upper 2.2% of the population. 70% of all people lie within one standard deviation of the norm(85-115), and half of IQ's are between 90-110. One quarter are above 110, and the final quarter are below 90. Below 70 is mental retardation (two SD below) while above 130 is considered genius (two SD above).

Like I said, IQ tests are dismissed by people who fall within the norm. But this is no different than the ugly person who insists that looks don't matter (an argument they use to try and convince beautiful people to be with them). IQ is a good predictor of some things, but vague on others. Future levels of income and salary correlate well with IQ, but personal fulfillment and happiness do not.

And yes, graphs of IQ results in the United States show differences in the mean of the bell curves of different races, but also much overlap. And these differences are the genesis for concerns that tests are biased. Oddly, though, it would mean that test generated by white people, for a majority white population, are oddly biased FOR Asians: http://www.iq-tests.eu/iq-test-IQ-correlations-700.html

You're saying that the IQs of men are more dispersed, but you have to remember that the rates of autism and aspergers are much, much higher in boys. People with autism are not more intelligent, but they are deprived of social intelligence and have more logical intelligence and good memories. But the IQ test doesn't test on social intelligence, which is an intelligence. So people with autism score extremely high on IQ tests, but do not have the brain ability to feel comfortable in a conversation. This could be the reason why most of the people who score 'genius' on IQ tests are male.
Exactly. That's exactly why I focused on logical abilities in my post (science, math) as opposed to literary or creative abilities (writing, artistic talent). The IQ test seems to measure logical intelligence and little more. All evidence points to a theory of Multiple Intelligence and practical examples abound. Every occurrence from idiot savants to “ignorant geniuses” such as Henry Ford (despite creating the modern assembly line and giving birth to the world’s third largest automaker Ford subscribed to obvious anti-Semitic propaganda that was easily proven wrong in his own time) support it.

Because of the same resons they silence down the difference between different races?

You still haven’t responded to my request for evidence or to my subsequent comments that followed. Is the FBI threatening you about that as well? :p

Please provide research results and define "varying types of intelligence".

By 'varying types of intelligence' I mean that there are various factors that make up an IQ test - logic, spatial awareness, verbal and memory among them. While men usually score higher on the spatial awareness parts, women do better at verbal and memory, proving that women do in fact have better memories, as everyone has equal time to memorize on the actual test. Women also do much better in social intelligence tests, which test the brain's ability to figure out what other people are thinking by their expressions and to understand reactions and feelings. Autism, which is much more common in males, is a severe lack of this type of intelligence.

Indeed, people with high EQ tend to think that's as important as IQ. And maybe it is! But EQ isn't very useful when it comes to solving the big problems of our time - I mean, how useful is EQ when finding out how to solve the global warming problem?


i am not aware of a test for EQ.again as i have said before i have a high IQ level but this means shit all.
and IQ/EQ have nothing at all to do with global warming.

The “negro” has only in the last forty years received social status as a human being. The same racists that dehumanized them are still alive today.

as the most pre-eminent representative of the SciForums Negro Revolutionary Caucus, i must applaud LunarMoon rejoinder

to simplify further...(this here is for the rednecks)
mah granpappy tells of tales his granpappy tole him (give a "great" or two)

keywords utilized in propaganda

*eons ago
*how long
*move on
*ancestors
*ancient
*history
*level

/sneer

IQ tests work. But it is debatable whether or not they mean anything. Here's why: When you take an IQ test, all your score indicates is where you fall in the population of people taking the test. When an IQ test is made up, there is no way of knowing what a perfect score means. Or how much each question should be worth. You don't know until you have a large and diverse sample of people take the test.

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im sorry for being a massive pedant but what do you mean by "work"?

im sorry for being a massive pedant but what do you mean by "work"?

relatively wise it serves its function.

relatively wise it serves its function.

that makes literally no sense.

that makes literally no sense.

same as the IQ tests make literally no sense.

same as the IQ tests make literally no sense.


*high five* WTF

im sorry for being a massive pedant but what do you mean by "work"?

They are consistent. They do their job. They measure relative performance within a population. They predict future performances reliably. They measure a useful form of intelligence, even though the word "intelligence" can be enigmatic and loaded at the same time, so detractors can re-define it in a way to rob IQ of some merit.

It is not so much a matter of IQ, it is a matter of how well you use your IQ.