I often come across religious people, who say they used to be atheists.

my querie is, if your an atheist, how could you possiblely turn to a religion, it defies all common sense.

I could understand it a little more if they said they were agnostic, I know there are different types, of atheists but I cant see any of them losing there senses.

so do you, like me feel that they are liers, or could they be just saying that to justify themselves, or do you have another theory.

this in no way, means I dislike religious people, I just feel I'm being lied too.

i was an atheist for a couple of years, during my late teens.

everneo: this does not help audible, he needs you to tell him why your ar'nt now.

it bugs me also audible, but I usually let it go, to save, calling someone a lier, as you say it makes no sense.
so I cant help as I feel the same.

I often come across religious people, who say they used to be atheists.

my querie is, if your an atheist, how could you possiblely turn to a religion, it defies all common sense.

I could understand it a little more if they said they were agnostic, I know there are different types, of atheists but I cant see any of them losing there senses.

so do you, like me feel that they are liers, or could they be just saying that to justify themselves, or do you have another theory.

this in no way, means I dislike religious people, I just feel I'm being lied too.

Let me tell you a story ...

Once there was a man who owned a shop. He made shoes. Day in day out people would come and ask him for shoes and he would measure their feet and make the shoes to fit. His customers were very happy and always recommended him to their friends. The man's business grew and grew and soon he owned many shops and became very rich.
Without warning a terrible drought befell the land where the man lived and all the livestock in the land perished.
Leather to make shoes was not to be had and soon the man's business fell away to nothing. The peoples of that land were not interested in new shoes anymore, in fact they struggled just to find enough water to drink. If it wasnt for the underground resevoirs all would have perished.
Now the shoemaker had accumulated much wealth and so decided to move to another country. He thought and thought about which country to set his empire up in and was faced with a curious dilemma. Should he set up in a country where the poeples there wear no shoes or should he set up in a country where everyone wore shoes?
The man pondered that if he set up where they all wore shoes then he would have to penetrate the market forces already in existence, whereas if he set up in a country where no one wore shoes he ran the risk of never being able to create a market at all.
The man went to visit a wise friend whom he was sure would be able to help him in his dilemma.
The wise friend asked the shoemaker why he thought that some people wore shoes and some didn't. The shoemaker replied "Well I know why people wear shoes but I cannot tell you why people do not wear shoes?"
Well said the wise friend, perhaps you should ask them?
So the shoemaker set off for the land where no one wore shoes. When he arrived he went off to the market place their to see what they did sell. He found fruit and meat and clothes but he found no shoes or anything that even resembled shoes. Now even though the shoemaker knew this was the case, he couldnt really visualise such a place until he actually arrived there and saw all the people with bare feet. The shoemaker decided to ask one of the locals why there were no shoes anywhere but the shoemaker did not speak the language of the country and the native just looked at him blankly. The shoemaker pointed to his own shoes and then to the bare feet of the native. The native looked puzzled and just shrugged his shoulders. The shoemaker became increasingly frustrated and decided to take his own shoes off and give them to the native to try.
The native watched with amusement as the shoemaker struggled to untie the strings that seemed to secure the leather to his feet but was pleased when the shoemaker handed him the leather foot garments. The shoemaker beckoned to the bare feet of the native and made gestures to the native encouraging him to try them on. The native tried to slip the shoes on his own feet but they were far too small. The native struggled and struggled but no matter how hard he tried he could not get them on his huge calloused feet. Other natives had gathered around this scene and were starting to laugh at their native friend who was hopping all over the place with strange leather garments hanging off of his feet. The native turned on his friends and said in a language known to them "Well you try them on then. See if they fit you!"
Each native took a turn but none of them could secure the shoes to their large calloused feet. Eventually the shoes were handed back to the shoemaker by the first native who just shook his head.
The shoemaker was at the end of his tether and in desparation he purchased some raw leather from a nearby market stall. He returned to the native and began to wrap the leather around the foot of the man. All the natives said "Ahhh" as they saw what the shoemaker was doing and all went to purchase leather for the shoemaker to wrap around their feet.
Before long the shoemaker was making shoes for all the natives, well all the natives but one.
The native that wouldn't wear the shoes was scornful of his brothers. He said to them "Look at your feet now, see how soft they have become!, These shoes are the devil's business. How will you be able to hunt in the woods now that your feet have become so soft? Look at the skin of my foot, it is hard and calloused and it has always served me well. You fools, you have been tricked here by some enemy."
The first native turned to his brother and said "Brother, you do not believe that these shoes were sent by God? I tell you this, the skin of my own foot may now be soft but these shoes protect my skin underneath. When I run through the forest now, my feet do not have to endure the rough ground that brings forth thorns and weeds for these leather shoes take the suffering where I now take none. Often I have had to forgoe a hunt because of the damage done to my feet and you have suffered too therefore. If you do not wear these shoes you are putting us all at risk. You are a mighty hunter and your feet are the strongest but you are not infallible. You should thank God for these shoes that will enable you to hunt all season without fear of injury."
The undecided native considered what his brother had said but could not see the logic in it and so went to visit their father for advice.
"Father. Our brothers are all wearing leather garments on their feet and their skin has been made soft. We have always needed the hard skin of our feet to hunt. Only the women have soft feet! I believe these shoes are the devil's curse on us men!"
The father replied "My son, whether you have shoes or not, you will find a way to hunt. If your brothers wish to wear these shoes to protect their feet what is that to you? You do not have to wear these leather garments do you?"
The son replied "No I do not but my brother said that he thought it would benefit us."
"Is your brother against you then?" asked the father.
"No" replied the son.
"Then how can you say that these shoes are the devil's work then?"
The son thanked his father for his wise words and went to see the shoemaker.
"Shoemaker", said the native, "I want you to make for me the very best shoes you can. They must be the strongest most beautiful shoes that you have made."
The shoemaker measured the man and set about his work. He sourced the finest materials and made for the man the very nicest shoes that you had ever seen. The native was very pleased with his new shoes. They fitted him perfectly.
The natives brothers were all jealous when they saw their brothers shoes and they mocked him accordingly "Hey!", they said, "I thought these shoes were the devil's work, but here you are sporting the very nicest shoes we have ever seen. They make ours look poor in comparison!"
"Go and see the shoemaker and take your complaint to him then" retorted their brother. I am sure he can make you a pair just the very same."

peace

c20

c20H25N3o: Let me tell you a story ...
*************
M*W: And your point ... ?

c20H25N3o: Let me tell you a story ...
*************
M*W: And your point ... ?

exactly M*W.
wtf is your point c20?????.

I often come across religious people, who say they used to be atheists.

my querie is, if your an atheist, how could you possiblely turn to a religion, it defies all common sense.

I could understand it a little more if they said they were agnostic, I know there are different types, of atheists but I cant see any of them losing there senses.

so do you, like me feel that they are liers, or could they be just saying that to justify themselves, or do you have another theory.

this in no way, means I dislike religious people, I just feel I'm being lied too.
they were probably not religious/worshiping at some time in their lifes,
or not even thinking about religion at all,
and then figured just in case theres God,
(Pascals wager) ;) they started believing.
so they could say they were atheists then I suppose.

is'nt that just not knowing.
I would not say it was atheism, however you make a good point.
as you know, you become atheist by reasoning out the pros and cons of religion.
and realising there is no god.
you cant be atheist( active rejection of belief in the existence of God) without having knowledge of religion.

c20H25N3o: Let me tell you a story ...
*************
M*W: And your point ... ?

Well the poster did not believe that someone who had no faith and did not believe that something could be 'good', might turn around in the total other direction and have faith and call it 'good'.
The story served to point out that we all lean to our own understanding on matters, in the case of the atheist there must be no 'God' and according to the poster it must be impossible for that atheist to see the light. The story highlighted the brother who was proud of his own achievments represented by his hard skinned feet and was afraid to adopt new ideas such as wearing shoes in case all he achieved was taken away.
His brothers on the other hand were willing to see the benefits in the shoes because of the persistence of the shoemaker. The shoemaker was persistent even willing to give up his own shoes that the natives might have understanding and new shoes but the resistant brother was anti the shoemaker from the moment he gave his brothers something he perceived as bad and evil.
Fortunately that resistant brother was not entirely arrogant and sought council from his father. The father gently pointed out that his son's brother was not acting against him by wearing these shoes. The brother considered his fathers words and saw the light. How can this thing be against him if his brother is for him. That resistant brother then turned around completely and suddenly wanted the best pair of shoes in the house.
The point of the story is that when we know something is bad, we do not really know at all and it is best to seek objective opinion from those who love you unconditionally because they too will encourage you to be objective. Stubbornly holding onto your own understanding of a matter could really just mean that you miss out. I see the converted atheist much the same as that once resistant brother. The other brothers who were not resistant initially were jealous of their brother's new shoes because they were better than even theirs. This is how it is sometimes when a new believer comes into the midst of the old. God gives them extra special shiny gifts that makes his existing followers get jealous for more. God wants his follower's to keep asking for the good things that he provides. It is God's great pleasure to give you good things. In the end all the brothers had the same wonderful shoes.

hope that helps make sense of the parable to you.

peace

c20

I often come across religious people, who say they used to be atheists.

my querie is, if your an atheist, how could you possiblely turn to a religion, it defies all common sense.I’d say a slow growing form of brain cancer, probably all sorts of hallucinogenic chemicals pouring into the poor saps brain.

I’d say a slow growing form of brain cancer, probably all sorts of hallucinogenic chemicals pouring into the poor saps brain.

*yawn*

Please take some time Michael to actually read some of my posts. I think you will find them thought provoking if you can just lay yourself aside briefly. I take your belittling of me as a compliment however such as I am want to do.

Thanks

c20

Well the poster did not believe that someone who had no faith and did not believe that something could be 'good', might turn around in the total other direction and have faith and call it 'good'.
The story served to point out that we all lean to our own understanding on matters, in the case of the atheist there must be no 'God' and according to the poster it must be impossible for that atheist to see the light.
c20
I think you must be reading a different thread, the whole point that audible is saying when you become an atheist, you become enlightened, ( see the light) everything becomes clear.
your no longer blinded, no more blinkers on.
so with that clarity of thought, you could not possibly take a step backwards to delusional.
so your point was lost and still is.

I think you must be reading a different thread, the whole point that audible is saying when you become an atheist, you become enlightened, ( see the light) everything becomes clear.
your no longer blinded, no more blinkers on.
so with that clarity of thought, you could not possibly take a step backwards to delusional.
so your point was lost and still is.


my querie is, if your an atheist, how could you possiblely turn to a religion, it defies all common sense.


I demonstrated how one could possibly turn to something that they previously scorned as being useless. I effectively answered the poster's query with a parable and then explained the parable.

thanks

c20

a parable is just a story, and it did not answer audibles question, else you would not have recieved I quote " and your point is" would you.
even if you explained yourself.
because you are completely wrong in your ideas on atheism.
and as I said you dont take a step backwards.

a parable is just a story, and it did not answer audibles question, else you would not have recieved I quote " and your point is" would you.
even if you explained yourself.
because you are completely wrong in your ideas on atheism.
and as I said you dont take a step backwards.

"So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit. The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:11-14 RSV)

To put it simply: It's the end of the line.

The one constant thing with those who have been 'born again', is that they were at the bottom of the barrel.

"I was doing drugs, my wife left me, I almost died, I had a serious illness" are but a small choice of what you'll hear from a born again.

It's a last ditch effort by the brain to move their attention away from them realising their life sucks.

In general it works, but then it isn't a solution, just a delusion. It's no different to alcohol or any form by which focus is diverted from our sorry state of being.

You said; "it defies all common sense", to which I say; of course it does, and that's the point. Once people have reached this stage, common sense has gone the way of the dodo, and all that's left is a burnt out wreck that needs "saving", and hence the religious "salvation".

Some people find salvation in a glass, some in drugs, some with shrinks and some in jumping off a tall building. god belief is exactly the same, just another method.


Perhaps a better question though, is why people who were once religious, and adamantly stated they had a relationship with god/jesus etc, end up becoming atheist. If someone knows god, and knows the existence of a being - they wouldn't just wake up one day and not believe in it anymore.

In this instance it's like an alcoholic turning sober. The problems have somewhat been resolved, leaving the salvation method no longer needed.

It just goes to show how fake the belief is. There is no god, and there never was - these people just needed there to be one, and so the brain created it for them.

Salavation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Not through any other means.

And personally, I think that God's wisdom is so perfect in choosing the suffering lambs to inherit His Kingdom. Who has made those lambs suffer? And what end shall be theres? As Jesus said "I come not to bring peace but a sword of division"

Let he who hath ears to hear ...

Salavation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Not through any other means.


You're not in any valid position to say such a thing, and as such it is inherently worthless.

I see people day in - day out who have found "salvation" through varying methods, and can assure you there is no difference between them. Maybe if you were in my position you could say such a thing, but then you wouldn't. Remember, the only reason you do say such a thing is because you are currently stuck within that method of salvation. It is no different to an alcoholic telling you that whisky is wonderful.

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may
be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 (NIV)

The Word of God tells me I am in every such position.

Thanks

c20

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may
be forgiven. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 (NIV)

The Word of God tells me I am in every such position.



Your preaching is sweet, but what you're quoting are merely the words of ancient shepherds. People you don't know, never knew, and will never know.

So again, you're not in a position.. and the only reason you see the bible as the word of god is because you're currently stuck within that method of salvation. You require it to keep you going, just like an alcoholic requires a bottle.

I can guarantee you that a good shrink will do you a lot more good than your current method.

Your preaching is sweet, but what you're quoting are merely the words of ancient shepherds. People you don't know, never knew, and will never know.

So again, you're not in a position.. and the only reason you see the bible as the word of god is because you're currently stuck within that method of salvation. You require it to keep you going, just like an alcoholic requires a bottle.

I can guarantee you that a good shrink will do you a lot more good than your current method.

I am like a swordsman, adept at his art. A warrior well versed in the way of the sword. Line ye up against me! I will strike thee down! Again and again I parry your blows. Your frustration mounts as you cannot penetrate the shield nor the breastplate, nor the helmet but fight you may that you may become skilled, learning the way of the master.
I bow my head, let battle commence, yet mine is the victory for this sword is light and the darkness has never put it out.

peace

c20

I am like a swordsman, adept at his art. A warrior well versed in the way of the sword. Line ye up against me! I will strike thee down! Again and again I parry your blows. Your frustration mounts as you cannot penetrate the shield nor the breastplate, nor the helmet but fight you may that you may become skilled, learning the way of the master.
I bow my head, let battle commence, yet mine is the victory for this sword is light and the darkness has never put it out.

This is the thing with people in your position... They think they need to fight everyone. Take for instance and alcoholic with his bottle. Try taking that bottle away from him.

To be honest you can wave your sword around until you're blue in the face and it's inconsequential. Much better to flex your brain than your muscles.

This is the thing with people in your position... They think they need to fight everyone. Take for instance and alcoholic with his bottle. Try taking that bottle away from him.

To be honest you can wave your sword around until you're blue in the face and it's inconsequential. Much better to flex your brain than your muscles.

It is interesting that you make out that I am hitting you with a physical sword when I actually am using my brain instead of my muscles. It is not I who puts store by the power of my muscles but you! Take that plank out of your own eye before you try and remove the speck from mine. The sword I speak of is the Spirit of God.

peace

c20

It is interesting that you make out that I am hitting you with a physical sword when I actually am using my brain instead of my muscles. It is not I who puts store by the power of my muscles but you!

It has nothing to do with the physical, but your very need to 'fight'. Your little story says more about your attitude than you'd care to realise. It is a sign of battle, and be that via any method, it is still a battle to you. It's amusing that those who shout 'love' from the rooftops, are also the very first to mention swords. jesus did exactly the same thing.

Take that plank out of your own eye before you try and remove the speck from mine.

Why? I do not follow the laws, rules or advice of an ancient jew.

The sword I speak of is the Spirit of God.


Yes, and it's still a sword. It's an image of battle, or hostility and war. Why is it not the "rose petal" or the "butterfly", or something pleasant? Why is it a sword? Feel free to answer that.

Yes, and it's still a sword. It's an image of battle, or hostility and war. Why is it not the "rose petal" or the "butterfly", or something pleasant? Why is it a sword? Feel free to answer that.

The following is taken from this website >>
http://www.pechurchnet.co.za/bwbuc/teach/bteach135.htm

Much of the time we fight our battles as if they were completely materialistic in nature but the Bible is clear that much of it is of a spiritual nature. Paul was very clear on this issue:

"Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world." (Ephesians 6:11)

The bible is painfully clear that we have an enemy, the devil, who has schemes to destroy us. We are not fighting a battle which is primarily physical but one which is spiritual. The new testament refers to devils, Satan and demons one hundred and thirty five times. Furthermore, they are to be defeated be the blood of Christ and the testimony of believers (Revelation 12:11). We are a long way from the understanding Paul had about "rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world", but we must start seeing beyond the material world if we are to have victory in spiritual things.

The battle between the only true God and the unclean spirits who inspire the gods of this world is seen in Israel's deliverance from Egypt. The exodus of Israel was for the primary purpose of worshipping God in a different spiritual environment. The same phrase is used nine times.

"Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert". (Exodus 7:16)

It is difficult for westerners to believe there is a cosmic battle taking place over and for humanity but God states it plainly as his motivation for the plagues over Egypt. The Exodus was a battle between God and the gods of Egypt.

"On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD." (Exodus 12:12)

The plagues were a combination of terrible natural disasters and onslaughts against the gods of Egypt. The water turning to blood is described literally as "blood in and on the wooden and stone things", i.e. idols.

The frog plague is a mocking of Heqt, the frog goddess who helped women in childbirth. The plague against animals showed the powerlessness of the bull gods Apis & Mnevis, cow god Hathor, and ram god Khnum to protect their beloved holy cows. The plague of darkness showed Egypt how powerless Ra, the sun god, was.

Even in Isaiah we seen the battle between God and evil powers continuing:
"In that day the LORD will punish the powers in the heavens above and the kings on the earth below." Isaiah 24:21

Daniel gives some details on the spiritual battle taking place over us.

"Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. So he said, "Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince. (Daniel 10:12,13,20,21)

"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then." (Daniel 12:1)

We see there the battle of the "Son of Man" with the prince of Persia. He only reaches Daniel after the angel Michael comes to His aid. Later also the prince of Greece also comes onto the scene.

From these passages we must learn that:

i) We are in a spiritual battle and thing are not what they seem.

ii) It is a battle of faith, character and perseverance.

iii) We are to use faith, the Word, prayer and the power of the Spirit.

Most of all we must remember and believe that we are in a spiritual battle and we have spiritual resources in Christ. Those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.


Erik Momsen
18th November 2003

Comment by C20 - As for me Erik, I do see through the eyes of Paul but I understand implicitly what you are saying and agree with every word. Thank you for your service to God.

"..For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world."

How amusing that the battle is against authority and rulers.

No offence kiddo, but you sound all the more like a typical bunch of criminals. We see throughout the bible that the sole problem is with authority, and that's what the devil applies to. jesus goes around saying taxmen are going to hell, and even physically attacking one of them.

You're just criminals, nothing more.. Your biblical buddies are just whinging about the system in operation. Rulers, authority and taxmen. While none of us really like them too much, there is no evil there whatsoever.

It's like religious people dragged through court for murder, saying; "I answer to nobody but god"..

You're just a big bad bunch of whinging children. Pfft, sickening.

The bible is painfully clear that we have an enemy, the devil, who has schemes to destroy us.

Yeah - authority, rulers and taxmen. Awww bless.

We are not fighting a battle which is primarily physical but one which is spiritual.

That is the very first confession of fantasy. You have nothing physical with which to fight with or against. You merely say "spriritual" which is little more than "we're all mouth, and that's all we can fight with".

The new testament refers to devils, Satan and demons one hundred and thirty five times.

Along with taxmen, rulers and authority.

but we must start seeing beyond the material world if we are to have victory in spiritual things.

But you're doing the opposite. jesus smacked taxmen, and you're doing the same- which by it's very essence is completely materialistic. You're a bunch of hypocrites.

The same phrase is used nine times.

"Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert". (Exodus 7:16)

It was only used so many times because god hardened the pharoahs heart so he wouldn't let them go. Pharoah said: "ok, sure, let them leave", and then god was like "fuck that, let me make pharoah say no, such is my power and love for my people".

He kept these people in slavery so he could show off. Big pansy.

The water turning to blood is described literally as "blood in and on the wooden and stone things", i.e. idols.

i.e tables, chairs, walls, stone wells etc. Why just "idols" when it could relate to one of 50 gazillion things?

The frog plague is a mocking of Heqt, the frog goddess who helped women in childbirth. The plague against animals showed the powerlessness of the bull gods Apis & Mnevis, cow god Hathor, and ram god Khnum to protect their beloved holy cows. The plague of darkness showed Egypt how powerless Ra, the sun god, was.

And atheists show the powerlessness of all of them, including your particular version.

Most of all we must remember and believe that we are in a spiritual battle and we have spiritual resources in Christ. Those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

All in all, you've just agreed with me 100%. I said it was all about the battle, to which you at first debated against. Now all you're doing is concurring with me. You're here to fight, not give love.

Salavation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Not through any other means.

And personally, I think that God's wisdom is so perfect in choosing the suffering lambs to inherit His Kingdom. Who has made those lambs suffer? And what end shall be theres? As Jesus said "I come not to bring peace but a sword of division"

Let he who hath ears to hear ...
are you sure jesus has is fact straight,

... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52

Please take some time Michael to actually read some of my posts. I think you will find them thought provoking if you can just lay yourself aside briefly. I take your belittling of me as a compliment however such as I am want to do.

Thanks

c20c20, ??

Sorry if you feel that way - but I was responding directly to audible, my post had nothing to do with any of your posts.

What I was saying is that when a person has a brain tumor develope they sometimes then "see" god and stop being an atheist - It does happen.

So again, sorry but nothing to do with your posts.

It is no different to an alcoholic telling you that whisky is wonderful. :) I like it

It is interesting that you make out that I am hitting you with a physical sword when I actually am using my brain instead of my muscles. It is not I who puts store by the power of my muscles but you! Take that plank out of your own eye before you try and remove the speck from mine. The sword I speak of is the Spirit of God.

peace

c20No - BUT what is interesting is that you seem to think that your retort has made sense and furthered your position.

No, if anything you seem to be making SnakeLord's arguments all the more true!
With each and every post you make, your position becomes weaker and SnakeLord's more evident.

To the original poster:

I suggest reading Thomas Merton if you are interested in conversions to religion. "The Seven Storey Mountain" is his autobiography, but he has a wealth of work. Not so much the conversion of an atheist to a theist, but of a non believer to a believer.

kevincme: To the original poster:

I suggest reading Thomas Merton if you are interested in conversions to religion. "The Seven Storey Mountain" is his autobiography, but he has a wealth of work. Not so much the conversion of an atheist to a theist, but of a non believer to a believer.
*************
M*W: Welcome to the wonderful world of sciforums, Kevin. I have read Thomas Merton, even through I'm far from religious, I like his style and thoughts about spiritual healing. I would recommend his books to both the religious and the atheists.

Michae: No - BUT what is interesting is that you seem to think that your retort has made sense and furthered your position.

No, if anything you seem to be making SnakeLord's arguments all the more true! With each and every post you make, your position becomes weaker and SnakeLord's more evident.
*************
M*W: The blind can't see too much, can they?

this does not help audible, he needs you to tell him why your ar'nt now.
I already told mis, the 2 year stupidity was during the restive late teens. ;)

No - BUT what is interesting is that you seem to think that your retort has made sense and furthered your position.

No, if anything you seem to be making SnakeLord's arguments all the more true!
With each and every post you make, your position becomes weaker and SnakeLord's more evident.

Consider this. I am saying that the sword with which I speak is the Spirit of God. If you know how to test the spirits then I suggest you do so that you may not be embarresed any further!

thanks

c20

c20 where in michaels posts has he said he was embarrassed, why are you trying to demean him, he's an innocent, he was only explaining your error.
you do have a lot of hate in you. I think you need to see a shrink, you are sociopathic.

c20 where in michaels posts has he said he was embarrassed, why are you trying to demean him, he's an innocent, he was only explaining your error.
you do have a lot of hate in you. I think you need to see a shrink, you are sociopathic.

If I am asking Michael to check his position to be sure that he himself has not made his own position weaker by ignoring my words, I can only summise that my spirit is for him. If I am for him how can I hate him or be against him? Now answer me that!

peace

c20

but your word are not for him, therefore not polite, filled with malcontents and hate.
you have to remember it's hard to put your feelings into print.

btw a sociopath will never see the error in there ways, without getting help.
everything looks rosie, does'nt it, c20.

but your word are not for him, therefore not polite, filled with malcontents and hate.
you have to remember it's hard to put your feelings into print.

btw a sociopath will never see the error in there ways, without getting help.
everything looks rosie, does'nt it, c20.

Do you not see your own double-mindedness?

You state that my words are not for him and are not polite and are filled with malcontents and hate

but then you doubt even your own conviction by saying

you have to remember it's hard to put your feelings into print.

And then you accuse me of being a sociopath?

I'll retort with scripture for it is wisdom for you ...

Matthew 7

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

peace

c20

if you read what she says correctly, shes saying she understands it hard for people to put there feelings in print, it has nothing to with her own convictions.
and she also say, quite rightly to I might add, "btw a sociopath will never see the error in there ways, without getting help.
everything looks rosie, does'nt it, c20. "
I to have said you should see a doctor, you have delusions of grandeur, you have a god complex, this could be psychopathic.

if you read what she says correctly, shes saying she understands it hard for people to put there feelings in print, it has nothing to with her own convictions.
and she also say, quite rightly to I might add, "btw a sociopath will never see the error in there ways, without getting help.
everything looks rosie, does'nt it, c20. "
I to have said you should see a doctor, you have delusions of grandeur, you have a god complex, this could be psychopathic.

Dr Doctor,

Please tell me why I should be placed under mental care because I agree with the following verse from The Holy Bible

Romans 7:22
For in my inner being I delight in God's law;

Thanks

c20

that is exactly it, your reply has nothing to with what was said, thats why.

I would like to help, but you need to be here at my clinic.
however I fear you live, far to far away for me to help.
best to find one local.
and again it's repeated "a sociopath/psychopath will never see the error in there ways, without getting help.
everything looks rosie, does'nt it, c20.
it is'nt your delight in gods law thats in question, it's your believe that you are god, that is.
it's a dangerous road you travel.

that is exactly it, your reply has nothing to with what was said, thats why.

I would like to help, but you need to be here at my clinic.
however I fear you live, far to far away for me to help.
best to find one local.
and again it's repeated "a sociopath/psychopath will never see the error in there ways, without getting help.
everything looks rosie, does'nt it, c20.
it is'nt your delight in gods law thats in question, it's your believe that you are god, that is.
it's a dangerous road you travel.

Psalm 82


A psalm of Asaph.

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":

2 "How long will you [1] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Yes rosie thank you :)

I'm sorry c20 you are not going to win me over.
here I have post a little excerpt for this site so you can see an understand what we mean ok.



Glibness/Superficial Charm
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.



Manipulative and Cunning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims.



Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality



Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.

this is a excerpt, you are displaying some traits.

http://www.home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm

I'm sorry c20 you are not going to win me over.
here I have post a little excerpt for this site so you can see an understand what we mean ok.

Excuse me while I rearrange a couple of things here ...


Self-confident/ Well Adjusted/ Creative
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.



Manipulative and Cunning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims.

^^ Given that I often recognise the rights of others it does not seem fitting to change this title.

Sense of Who I Am
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance ( like a new born baby ;) ). Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality

Jesus said "I did not come to bring peace but a sword of division."
Sorry you find yourselves on the wrong side of the fence but there is of course hope for you ;)



Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.

Please find me in a lie if you can.

this is a excerpt, you are displaying some traits.

Hypocrite! Oh 'wise one' who knows better than me :rolleyes:

http://www.home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm

Very nice.

c20

I'm sorry c20 you are not going to win me over.
here I have post a little excerpt for this site so you can see an understand what we mean ok.



Glibness/Superficial Charm
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.



Manipulative and Cunning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims.



Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality



Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.

this is a excerpt, you are displaying some traits.

http://www.home.datawest.net/esn-re...rtcls/socio.htm I'm sorry c20 you are not going to win me over.
here I have post a little excerpt for this site so you can see an understand what we mean ok.

Excuse me while I rearrange a couple of things here ...


Self-confident/ Well Adjusted/ Creative
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.



Manipulative and Cunning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims.

^^ Given that I often recognise the rights of others it does not seem fitting to change this title.

Sense of Who I Am
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance ( like a new born baby ). Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality

Jesus said "I did not come to bring peace but a sword of division."
Sorry you find yourselves on the wrong side of the fence but there is of course hope for you



Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.

Please find me in a lie if you can.

this is a excerpt, you are displaying some traits.

Hypocrite! Oh 'wise one' who knows better than me

http://www.home.datawest.net/esn-re...rtcls/socio.htm

Very nice.

c20
why did you answer, the way you did, c20.
you proved him right.
now I have my doubts about you, and I just thought you were a little over the top christian.

why did you answer, the way you did, c20.
you proved him right.
now I have my doubts about you, and I just thought you were a little over the top christian.

Because I tell you I AM fine and I AM not believed.

Simple.

thanks

c20

c20

Would you agree or disagree that taking hallucinogenic drugs (for ex: LSD) over a period of time can dramatically alter the brains in some peoples?

If so, what would be some examples of the types of behaviors these people might display?

could you, would you, answer the question micheal posed c20.
I'd be interested to.

c20

Would you agree or disagree that taking hallucinogenic drugs (for ex: LSD) over a period of time can dramatically alter the brains in some peoples?

If so, what would be some examples of the types of behaviors these people might display?


Why do you ask? What is the relevance here in a topic entitled Why I used to be an atheist?
Are you trying to trip me up? You will fail. Here is why...

The Gospel Of Mark KJV

7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

7:16
If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

7:17
And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.

7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

7:19
Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

7:20
And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

7:22
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

7:23
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

WOW you even rewrite scripture, you truly are delusional.
is'nt the bible infalible.
but who's telling you, from within what to do.

WOW you even rewrite scripture, you truly are delusional.
is'nt the bible infalible.
but who's telling you, from within what to do.

I AM

Why do you ask? What is the relevance here in a topic entitled Why I used to be an atheist?
Are you trying to trip me up? You will fail. Here is why...no there's no trying to trip you or trick you or anything of the sort.

I just asked a simple question would you agree or disagree that taking hallucinogenic drugs (for ex: LSD) over a period of time can dramatically alter the brains in some peoples?

If that is the case - assuming you agreed so - then, what would be some examples of the types of behaviors these people might display?

And I think my questions are related to the topic.

no there's no trying to trip you or trick you or anything of the sort.

I just asked a simple question would you agree or disagree that taking hallucinogenic drugs (for ex: LSD) over a period of time can dramatically alter the brains in some peoples?

If that is the case - assuming you agreed so - then, what would be some examples of the types of behaviors these people might display?

And I think my questions are related to the topic.


Let us suppose my name here was Johnny_Bravo

What relevance would your question be of then?

Let us suppose my name here was Johnny_Bravo

What relevance would your question be of then? duh?:

Let us suppose my name here was Johnny_Bravo

What relevance would your question be of then?because in another thread you said you used acid before - so of course you would naturally be the best person on the thread to answer my question. Regardless if you’re name is c20H25N3o or Johnny_Bravo.

As I have said in previous posts, these are potentially dangerous substances not to be taken in the party spirit.
They must never be abused and must never be taken if you have even the slightest doubts about what you are doing. I say it is probably better for people not to take them at all if they fear punishment for doing so.
At the end of the day it is about taking responsibility for whatever it is you do. It is to God that I must answer, not you.
Therefore if someone becomes ill from taking a substance then one can only imagine that they did not pay attention to the warnings they were given about that particular substance.

Therefore if someone becomes ill from taking a substance then one can only imagine that they did not pay attention to the warnings they were given about that particular substance.I'm saying that use of any drug (even smoking) will alter the brain.

But in the case of say something like LSD it may alter it in such a way as to cause the person to interpret reality wrongly (ie: hear voices and/or see things that are not there) These drugs are called hallucinogenic for just that reason.

Anyway, these changes occur directly as a result of the drug - so I'm not talking about "doing it in a safe zone w/ friends". I'm talking about chemical driven physical changes in the brain.

Would you agree that taking hallucinogenic drugs (for ex: LSD) over a period of time can dramatically alter the chemical/physical properties in the brains of some peoples?

fahrenheit 451 ,pavlosmarcos,Michael ,the preacher

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to be continued