It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.

The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't atleast have to power to protect children, what does he have?

Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.

Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.

There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that. Often we are taught by our loving and trusting parents to believe in god, to attend church and such. That too is a form of idealism.

You know that "feeling" you get in church? The one where people start crying and putting their hands in the air, and sing, and are overcome with the spirit of the lord, as they say. Well, you can get that feeling from many other outlets in life. Some good, some bad. They are all a bit extreme in my opinion.

I will add more reasons to accept the truth as I have the time to.

But, he works in mysterious ways...

We should now close down the religion forum and observe a minute of silence.

Do you think we can go without saying anything for that long?

Those things you are talking about are caused by humans.

From the last paragraph of the last chapter of A. E. Haydon's "The Biography of the Gods": "For too long, we have put off unto the gods those things that we should be doing for ourselves."

And I believe you posted this thread to be proven otherwise.

The man who holds the truth is blissfull, if you are not blissfull then you should recognize that your knowledge is flawed. I myself believe many things, irrelevant for you, but all I know is that we don´t know.

I posted it because I believe that religous people need to put down there books, so we can move on in the world. Stoping wasting your life on reading and preaching the bible or the karan or whatever religion it may be.

It's not real.

I posted it because I believe that religous people need to put down there books, so we can move on in the world. Stoping wasting your life on reading and preaching the bible or the karan or whatever religion it may be.

It's not real.

its not real for you (and me) but for most people it gives them strength to think that we are not alone! leaven them to they're books and let them belive in what they want

I posted it because I believe that religous people need to put down there books, so we can move on in the world. Stoping wasting your life on reading and preaching the bible or the karan or whatever religion it may be.

It's not real.

Did you ever think of reading any of the *one or two) posts on this site before posting?
I bet 90% (minimum) of the believers here could give you far, far better reasons for not believing than yours.
And they still believe, so how much effect do you think you're going to have?
:D

I posted it because I believe that religous people need to put down there books, so we can move on in the world. Stoping wasting your life on reading and preaching the bible or the karan or whatever religion it may be.

It's not real.

You are trying to impose your beliefs in others in order to feel better with what you think. Isn´t this the same thing than what those people preaching the Bible or the Koran are doing?

At least Jesus, Mohammad, Zarathustra, Mahavira, etc, etc... believed there is a God, and you don´t, so who is right?

Certainly, we are not the ones who decide. Lets better let each other be...

How can anyone not believe in me?

It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.

The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't atleast have to power to protect children, what does he have?

Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.

Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.

There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that. Often we are taught by our loving and trusting parents to believe in god, to attend church and such. That too is a form of idealism.

You know that "feeling" you get in church? The one where people start crying and putting their hands in the air, and sing, and are overcome with the spirit of the lord, as they say. Well, you can get that feeling from many other outlets in life. Some good, some bad. They are all a bit extreme in my opinion.

I will add more reasons to accept the truth as I have the time to.

Whooooooa you are SO going to hell....

Whooooooa you are SO going to hell....

Thot?

It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.
Well I don't if your daughter will be there or whatever, but heavenly worlds and universes do exist.......


The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't atleast have to power to protect children, what does he have?
The birth of deformed babies is caused by bad karma....I wish I could prove this, because it's so true...


Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.
I wonder which religion says since God exists everything should be good in this world...hmm let's see none do...rather most (if not ALL) describe this world as a place of suffering and sin, where evil takes place....


Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.
Religion causing wars doesn't really prove God doesn't exist because it has nothing to do with the existence or non-existence of God...

Also it should be noted that Stalin (an atheist) killed over 20 million people...that's more than 6 times all religious wars combined...


There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that. Often we are taught by our loving and trusting parents to believe in god, to attend church and such. That too is a form of idealism.
What you "feel" deep down really has no relation to the truth...people feel lots of things deep down...the truth is the truth, with or without evidence, with or without feeling it's true, with or without believers, the truth is just the truth....


You know that "feeling" you get in church? The one where people start crying and putting their hands in the air, and sing, and are overcome with the spirit of the lord, as they say. Well, you can get that feeling from many other outlets in life. Some good, some bad. They are all a bit extreme in my opinion.
Yeah exactly emphasizing my point, feelings really have no relation to the truth...


I will add more reasons to accept the truth as I have the time to.
Go ahead, but this time try to get reasons that actually makes the existence of God less likely or false...

So basically your argument right now is just that "it just doesn't feel like God exists"

Micholi,

Welcome :)

Your reasoning for there not being a God are not really logical. For example, deformed babies could be evidence that there is a God or Gods and that they are wicked.

It's often told to me that God likes to test people. So it could be that a Priest or Prophet, or whomever, that has sex with a young child is really just Gods way of testing that child. So when the child grows up and doesn't worship God .. well, then God can say "Haa!" and send that person to burn in a Hell that would have made their life-time of rape comfortable by comparison.

Just some things to consider,
Michael

It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.

The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't atleast have to power to protect children, what does he have?

Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.

Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.

There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that. Often we are taught by our loving and trusting parents to believe in god, to attend church and such. That too is a form of idealism.

You know that "feeling" you get in church? The one where people start crying and putting their hands in the air, and sing, and are overcome with the spirit of the lord, as they say. Well, you can get that feeling from many other outlets in life. Some good, some bad. They are all a bit extreme in my opinion.

I will add more reasons to accept the truth as I have the time to.
You're a true believer.
You believe you know the final truth. You think that those that believe other than you are deluded and immoral. How is this not fundamentalism?

It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.

The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't atleast have to power to protect children, what does he have?

Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.

Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.

There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that. Often we are taught by our loving and trusting parents to believe in god, to attend church and such. That too is a form of idealism.

You know that "feeling" you get in church? The one where people start crying and putting their hands in the air, and sing, and are overcome with the spirit of the lord, as they say. Well, you can get that feeling from many other outlets in life. Some good, some bad. They are all a bit extreme in my opinion.

I will add more reasons to accept the truth as I have the time to.You know, there are things that we might never understand. It's all subjective, you have a subjective feeling that God doesn't exist. I have a subjective feeling that He exist, it's more than a feeling for me, but it all starts with the feeling I think, there's a truth out there that can't be explained externally, but must be experianced. Look at all the scientific theories, we are way above our heads even trying to explain the simplest thing about the universe, we use supercomputers to simulate what the universe does freely and without err. The more we explain and look into the world, the more we should realise that there IS something more, just by the way it all works! You think that we created all these ideas, but WE didn't create anything! Understand that?

We should now close down the religion forum and observe a minute of silence.lol

It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.
*************
M*W: Welcome to sciforums. My heart goes out to you.

Even though there is no "heaven," I hope that your pain will be relieved.
[QUOTE]The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't at least have to power to protect children, what does he have?
*************
M*W: You are right. There is no god. Babies are born. Sometimes they are born but not healthy. That's a heartache that parents sometimes face, but there is no god that causes this. It is nature, but it's sad when it occurs. My heart goes out to you.

Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.
*************
M*W: Yes, this is an abomination. It shouldn't happen, but obviously it has. I have my opinion on it, but that still doesn't make it okay.

Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.
*************
M*W: The Crusades, the Inquisition, and all the atrocities that the Church caused have NO reconciliation of rightfullness.

There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that.
*************
M*W: You are right. There could be no god at all! Those who believe there is are sefely deluded.

Often we are taught by our loving and trusting parents to believe in god, to attend church and such. That too is a form of idealism.
*************
M*W: Yes, and I was deluded to.
You know that "feeling" you get in church? The one where people start crying and putting their hands in the air, and sing, and are overcome with the spirit of the lord, as they say. Well, you can get that feeling from many other outlets in life.
*************
M*W: Some good, some bad. They are all a bit extreme in my opinion.

That's all histrionic behavior. It isn't a real phenomena. It's all for show. I've been there, praying my heart out in a catholic charismatic prayer group! I guess my true heart showed itself. The very pious of that group believed that I was "not spirit-filled!" I couldn't speak in tongues even though I desparately tried, but I had some sensation of the gift of prophecy, but the regulars didn't accept my gift saying that I "was not spirit-filled!"
will add more reasons to accept the truth as I have the time to.
**************
M*W: I do look forward to hearing from you again. I once believed, but now I know it was a delusion. I hope you don't follow into this lie. There is no god, no savior, and no redemption. That's all a lie!

I once believed, but now I know it was a delusion. I hope you don't follow into this lie.

Think Medicine Woman speak with forked tongue...sound um like you really want him to believe lie...why you want him to believe lie? So that you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves?

Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.

How about the wars not started over religion? Hundred Years' war, Civil war, World War 1, World War 2, the Cold war, Vietnam war, Gulf war, Iran-Iraq war, Korean war, Iraq war, Afghan war, are a few non-religiously motivated wars. If you add the totals, these are some of the deadliest wars in history.

How about the wars not started over religion? Hundred Years' war, Civil war, World War 1, World War 2, the Cold war, Vietnam war, Gulf war, Iran-Iraq war, Korean war, Iraq war, Afghan war, are a few non-religiously motivated wars. If you add the totals, these are some of the deadliest wars in history.



Of course you are correct, my good man. But when parroting Dawkins many folks refuse to look at the evidence of history.

Such is the way of the human parrot.

Micholi,

Welcome :)

Your reasoning for there not being a God are not really logical. For example, deformed babies could be evidence that there is a God or Gods and that they are wicked.
I thought god was ALL LOVING ,ALL GOOD!?

It's often told to me that God likes to test people. So it could be that a Priest or Prophet, or whomever, that has sex with a young child is really just Gods way of testing that child. So when the child grows up and doesn't worship God .. well, then God can say "Haa!" and send that person to burn in a Hell that would have made their life-time of rape comfortable by comparison.

why the [Deleted] would god need to TEST anyone when he is (ALLEGEDLY)
ALL KNOWING!!!
he KNOWS everything that will happen from begining of time till the end and everything in between,to allow such evil shyt happen he would have to be uncaring evil monster,or NOT exist!

Religion does not cause war - not for the most part.
People cause war over resources - the use religion as an excuse and propaganda tool to get the masses behind the effort.

How about the wars not started over religion? Hundred Years' war, Civil war, World War 1, World War 2, the Cold war, Vietnam war, Gulf war, Iran-Iraq war, Korean war, Iraq war, Afghan war, are a few non-religiously motivated wars. If you add the totals, these are some of the deadliest wars in history.That's true. Man invented War just as Man invented Zeus, sometimes they dance together and other times alone :)

I thought god was ALL LOVING ,ALL GOOD!?Oh come on scorpius you did not! :p

Why the test? Because inherent omniscience makes tested humans so much Gawd Damn fun! Now, imagine you've tested many many many millions and billions of normal ones, and now imagine you are God and a twit, probably making a couple sick-twisted ones to see what they would do could be considered good?

Or imagine all those children that live normal lives, BUT (God thought to itself) what if one were raped by my very own representative there on Earth - lets see how they handle that one! Bwwwaaaa haaaa haaa haaaa ... ....

Every play GTA? Going to play it for PS3? Whatchya gonna do with the baseball bat?? :eek: Basically Earth is a really really realistic version of GTA4 for God.

Or imagine there is free-will, and this is all our own doing - even if there IS a God.
Now imagine sleeping in the bed we made.

It's hardly a baby's fault they were born deft with two heads and no arms and three eyes.

I wonder why, if God just wanted free-willed beings, didn't It make them out of silicon and why didn't It make these beings so they asexually procreated and derived their energy from the sun like a plant? Then they could sit there and enjoy the sun and think about God.

I suppose it seems in making us humans, It intended for a carnivorous ape-like creature that travels in packs, must kill to live - with a tendency towards killing his own and can be born mentally and physically deranged.

God could have easily made this universe such that human CAN NOT be born abnormally or in pain or missing eyes and ears - where such things were impossibilities, yet it didn't

What does that say about God?

Michael

It's hardly a baby's fault they were born deft with two heads and no arms and three eyes.
I didn't say it was the baby's fault.

I suppose it seems in making us humans, It intended for a carnivorous ape-like creature that travels in packs, must kill to live - with a tendency towards killing his own and can be born mentally and physically deranged.
I suppose you've never met a vegetarian?
I suppose also, you didn't realize that in Genesis God said man should be vegetarian (that is if you are referring spefically to Abraham's God).

God could have easily made this universe such that human CAN NOT be born abnormally or in pain or missing eyes and ears - where such things were impossibilities, yet it didn't

What does that say about God?
It says nothing about God, in my opinion.
Again, if you are talking about Abraham's God, we are discussing 80 years, or so, in an existance that has equal capacity for extraordinary pleasure or pain followed by eternity of bliss.
A missing eye seems a small thing to me.
The vast majority of woes on Earth are directly and completely attributable to how man lives.
How joyful man's life is is also on our own shoulders - again, free will.

Do you know any disabled people?
Do you know any happy disabled people?
I do.
In my experience, trauma, difficulty, pain and overcoming obstacles make for the best people.

Hard work, self-discipline and difficulty help us grow and mature as people.
I wouldn't want a life of perfect ease on a beach, doing nothing but thinking about God - I like to be challenged.
Do you not like to be challenged?

It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.

The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't atleast have to power to protect children, what does he have?

if the soul is eternal, what does it mean to be born as a baby?

BG 2.16: Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both.

(in other words all living entities that appear in this world - including babies - have a long history behind them )

Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.
what do you propose that god does to address this problem?

Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.
hence there is a distinction between religious affairs and affairs in teh guise of the religious ....

There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that.
people are atheistic for the same reasons

Often we are taught by our loving and trusting parents to believe in god, to attend church and such. That too is a form of idealism.
so is atheism

You know that "feeling" you get in church? The one where people start crying and putting their hands in the air, and sing, and are overcome with the spirit of the lord, as they say. Well, you can get that feeling from many other outlets in life.
true

thats why real religiousity is elucidated as something a bit more specific than have an emotional out burst in a place of worship

SB 7.15.12: There are five branches of irreligion, appropriately known as irreligion [vidharma], religious principles for which one is unfit [para-dharma], pretentious religion [ābhāsa], analogical religion [upadharma] and cheating religion [chala-dharma]. One who is aware of real religious life must abandon these five as irreligious.

I am not a religious person, I don't believe in god, in the traditional sense, but
I do believe in a greater power. Though I think the bible has this power down
just as well as Dungeons&Dragons series has it. There is very little evidence
proving or disproving the all powerful god. The bible wasn't a fax from heaven
human hand wrote it. I see everything has a purpose, and everyone has a
use. Did I get that mixed up?

It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.

The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't atleast have to power to protect children, what does he have?

Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.


Hello again ppl! It's been a couple years (had a dose of real life) since I last posted, but it's good to see some of you again. Shout out to MW, audible,spidergoat, and bunch of you.

I used to be a agnostic theist...or just a theist, Christian, or whatever. Now, I am definitely agnostic. But, maybe not because I believe there is a truth :bugeye: ...just that it may not be conceivable because of adulterations and preconceptions and fallacies

Anyway, I am well versed with the Bible and the teachings of Christianity and I still dabble in it, in the quest for truth. To answer your question: There are as many reasons for God to stay out of our business (from a Chrisitian perspective) as there are the number of reasons as there are that you do not believe.

The first one that comes to mind is that the Bible teaches that God purposefully allows "bad" things to happen in order for the victim or the comforter of the victim to either focus on God more to help them, or for the victim to be witnessed to by the comforter.

Another reason is the free will to do evil.

Another reason is for the strengthening of character...or to save someone who is in like circustances...

There are many reasons given by scripture. Now, I can't say if Jesus is real or just mythstory (to coin a phrase), but just what scripture gives as reasons why bad things happen to good people.

From an atheist perspective.....hmm, this is pointless discussion because there is no God.

Agnostic...well, I'd say keep searching for the truth!

If you believe in God, then be strengthened...there is always a reason. If you don't believe in God but don't discount his existence, then perhaps find out more of why things are from a Christian perspective. If you are decided there is no God, then don't worry about it...

we can do our best to punish the priests and prevent deformation through genetics and lifestyle during the early fetal stages of life.

Stupid truth :mad: It's all a matter of perspective.:bawl:

I thought god was ALL LOVING ,ALL GOOD!?

why the [Deleted] would god need to TEST anyone when he is (ALLEGEDLY)
ALL KNOWING!!!
he KNOWS everything that will happen from begining of time till the end and everything in between,to allow such evil shyt happen he would have to be uncaring evil monster,or NOT exist!

Heh..you know what ticks me off is how does a god expect us to believe in it if the god shows no signs of its existence?

Jesus says "Blessed are those that believe, but have not seen [me]."

Guess I'm not blessed.

Moses had the burning bush! Jonah had the whale! Where is my sign? :bawl: I know that may sound sarcastic...but, come on...seriously, what does God expect?

Anyway, if we're talking about if God actually knows everything...quickly (to stay on topic hopefully) I believe you do not understand the the Christian belief as so many have not.

God cannot know all things and yet man have free will.

I can give examples in scripture for the Christians...but, there are exmples where God changed his mind, was awestruck, and many others because of a choice a person made. Now that shows that God does not know THE future, but elsewhere in scriptures it says that God knows all futures. God knows how everything will play out till the end of time at every instant...but the future changes as humans make decisions, and God knows the new future. If you knew what everyone did, is doing, and what they are thinking of doing, you could predict the future as well if you had the brain power to do the math.

If there is a god and it is the Bible speaks of, then that is how it is because of examples in the Bible.

But, God may not exist, so I can't say any of this is true...just wanted to set the myth you were talking about striaight...just so that the three little pigs do actually live and not get eaten by the big bad wolf.

God cannot know all things and yet man have free will.

I can give examples in scripture for the Christians...but, there are exmples where God changed his mind, was awestruck, and many others because of a choice a person made. Now that shows that God does not know THE future, but elsewhere in scriptures it says that God knows all futures. God knows how everything will play out till the end of time at every instant...but the future changes as humans make decisions, and God knows the new future. If you knew what everyone did, is doing, and what they are thinking of doing, you could predict the future as well if you had the brain power to do the math.

We have discussed this recently.
Rather than rehash days of arguments take a look here...
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1491926#post1491926

I suppose you've never met a vegetarian?Vegetarians don't kill something and eat it? Perhaps you were thinking of breath-airians? :p

Hard work, self-discipline and difficulty help us grow and mature as people.
I wouldn't want a life of perfect ease on a beach, doing nothing but thinking about God - I like to be challenged.
Do you not like to be challenged?Hey I totally agree. But there's challenge, like say my growing up trailer park-trash, and then there's cruelty - like a child molested from birth and finally brutally murdered at the ripe old age of 12. That's not a life-challenge but simply sick.

Not to mention people who are born with separated brains or missing large chunks of brain and not able to mentally function above the age of 6 etc... God could have, with ease, made a world where such existences are impossibilities. Such is the Power of God. As God did not do so - that says something about the nature of God.

Then again the Abrahamic God even goes so far as to manipulate people so as to have an excuse to murder others. I'm thinking of the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart and the following murder of Egyptian children.

Michael

God purposefully allows "bad" things to happen in order for the victim or the comforter of the victim to either focus on God more

What an absolutely superb idea! I'm gonna go chop off my daughters legs just so she can focus on me more. :bugeye:

Pfft.

What an absolutely superb idea! I'm gonna go chop off my daughters legs just so she can focus on me more. :bugeye:

Pfft.

probably a good indication why the relationship between parent and child is not as absolute as the relationship between god and the living entity

Hey I totally agree. But there's challenge, like say my growing up trailer park-trash, and then there's cruelty - like a child molested from birth and finally brutally murdered at the ripe old age of 12. That's not a life-challenge but simply sick.

Not to mention people who are born with separated brains or missing large chunks of brain and not able to mentally function above the age of 6 etc... God could have, with ease, made a world where such existences are impossibilities. Such is the Power of God. As God did not do so - that says something about the nature of God.
or alternatively, something about the nature of the living entity in the material world

Then again the Abrahamic God even goes so far as to manipulate people so as to have an excuse to murder others. I'm thinking of the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart and the following murder of Egyptian children.
so how do you propose that god deals with the problem of evil in this world?

From the last paragraph of the last chapter of A. E. Haydon's "The Biography of the Gods": "For too long, we have put off unto the gods those things that we should be doing for ourselves."
I love that quote. Isn't it funny how something like that quote can keep popping up over many years and can still always sound so good?

why you want him to believe lie? So that you make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves?
Please keep the religiospeak to a minimum. It is annoying. If you want to give people something great, quote the bible directly, or re-phrase it to fit modernity - but don't use this mishmash, it just sounds like someone trying to add influence to their words without explanation of them, i.e. pompousness. Ok, sorry, rant over...
Like, drop the word "twofold" that nobody uses anymore, and if you are talking to medicine woman say "yourself". Or say, "why do you people (or "your type") want him to believe lie", and then address the comment with the word "yourselves". Or talk like an indian with a bible, do whatever you want, nevermind. AAGH - ok, now the rant is really over.

I thought god was ALL LOVING ,ALL GOOD!?

why the [Deleted] would god need to TEST anyone when he is (ALLEGEDLY)
ALL KNOWING!!!
he KNOWS everything that will happen from begining of time till the end and everything in between,to allow such evil shyt happen he would have to be uncaring evil monster,or NOT exist!Everything is a part of His creation, He has made all the days, He fulfills His purpouse and keeps His promises, don't we see result when He tests us? You may come out stronger from tests, who knows how we develop our strengths or get well and healthy? All respect to doctors and psychologists, but we just don't know enough to treat everything the way it should be treated.

It's hardly a baby's fault they were born deft with two heads and no arms and three eyes.

I wonder why, if God just wanted free-willed beings, didn't It make them out of silicon and why didn't It make these beings so they asexually procreated and derived their energy from the sun like a plant? Then they could sit there and enjoy the sun and think about God.

I suppose it seems in making us humans, It intended for a carnivorous ape-like creature that travels in packs, must kill to live - with a tendency towards killing his own and can be born mentally and physically deranged.

God could have easily made this universe such that human CAN NOT be born abnormally or in pain or missing eyes and ears - where such things were impossibilities, yet it didn't

What does that say about God?

MichaelYou think you are ontop of a mountain looking down at all others, but you have inherent faults too, it is these faults that you have to struggle with. People are born into this world and has to struggle too, it is not a perfect world, but even crippled ones find joy in their life, the world is unique in that it provides us with the tools to achieve something for ourselves, to improve things, all these things had to be, the world had to be imperfect for us to improve it, I'm more worried about your ignorance than I am of any crippled ones.

Heh..you know what ticks me off is how does a god expect us to believe in it if the god shows no signs of its existence?

Jesus says "Blessed are those that believe, but have not seen [me]."You have heard of Him though, you see the world around you, you can easily believe in Him.

Guess I'm not blessed.Believing without seeing is not the only reason for blessing.

Moses had the burning bush! Jonah had the whale! Where is my sign? :bawl: I know that may sound sarcastic...but, come on...seriously, what does God expect?We get the Jonah sign.


God cannot know all things and yet man have free will.

I can give examples in scripture for the Christians...but, there are exmples where God changed his mind, was awestruck, and many others because of a choice a person made. Now that shows that God does not know THE future, but elsewhere in scriptures it says that God knows all futures. God knows how everything will play out till the end of time at every instant...but the future changes as humans make decisions, and God knows the new future. If you knew what everyone did, is doing, and what they are thinking of doing, you could predict the future as well if you had the brain power to do the math.I guess that depends on the road the man walks. Surely God knows what lies ahead, but you have to find your way.

Hey I totally agree. But there's challenge, like say my growing up trailer park-trash, and then there's cruelty - like a child molested from birth and finally brutally murdered at the ripe old age of 12. That's not a life-challenge but simply sick.

Not to mention people who are born with separated brains or missing large chunks of brain and not able to mentally function above the age of 6 etc... God could have, with ease, made a world where such existences are impossibilities. Such is the Power of God. As God did not do so - that says something about the nature of God.

Then again the Abrahamic God even goes so far as to manipulate people so as to have an excuse to murder others. I'm thinking of the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart and the following murder of Egyptian children.

Michael

You see Michael; you are the way you are because of every single circumstance you have encountered in your life, you have learned your lessons.
On the other hand, the world cannot be the utopia you are talking about, it is impossible. There world is perfect as it is, with injustice and all; because just because of the fact that there is injustice, you know what justice is; just because the fact that there is evil, you know what good is, and just because there is death, there is also life.
What do you want? That death ceases to exist? Then birth would be ceased to exist as well...

We tend to blame God for our misfortunes, and even say that there isn’t a God because he is supposed to be good, and you don’t see it. But it is right in front of you; it is a matter of perspective. It is a lie what people say about if you don’t believe in God you are going to hell; you are actually in the same position of a religious person right now. For example, Nietzchefan here is one of the people who make more fun about God and the concept people give Him, at the same time, I see he is one of the most religious persons there are on this forum, he likes to have fun, to make jokes, to laugh… there is something very spiritual about laughter, you don’t see laughing dogs very often do you? Laughing is a human thing, and it is very religious; even if you don’t “believe in a God”.

Everything is supposed to be as it is right now, because that is the way things work; we could never imagine the bigger picture, we are like skin cells of a higher organism that claim injustice because some skin cells are unfortunate.

And the Bible… don´t get me started about the Bible, if you don´t believe in the God of the Bible, that is ok; I don´t.

And the Bible… don´t get me started about the Bible, if you don´t believe in the God of the Bible, that is ok; I don´t.

It's ok according to you, but certainly not Him, therefore, it is not ok. If it's not ok, then you are in conflict with Him. Being in conflict with Him is certainly a losing proposition, but at the same time certainly your choice.

Being in agreement with The God of the Bible is the correct 'place' to be.

It's ok according to you, but certainly not Him, therefore, it is not ok. If it's not ok, then you are in conflict with Him. Being in conflict with Him is certainly a losing proposition, but at the same time certainly your choice.

Beware of those who try to manipulate you with fear, those are your enemies; that was God speaking through me.

Beware of those who try to manipulate you with fear, those are your enemies; that was God speaking through me.

:yawn:

What do you want? That death ceases to exist? Then birth would be ceased to exist as well...

Ah, the image of heaven..

If that's the eventual outcome anyway - no death, disease etc etc why not just go straight to that part and save all the f****** around?

probably a good indication why the relationship...

Blah blah blah.

Ah, the image of heaven..

If that's the eventual outcome anyway - no death, disease etc etc why not just go straight to that part and save all the f****** around?

That is the eventual outcome, only if you earned it with your actions, words and most importantly: thoughts. On the meanwhile, we are just learning our lesson because of past failures; our failures, nobody else to blame, thats the sucky part.

That is the eventual outcome, only if you earned it with your actions, words and most importantly: thoughts.

But why bother with a test of people that you know wont act, think or say anything right in the first place? Why not just create a heaven full of decent sheep which is exactly what the outcome is going to be anyway? Why create horseshit before the horse?

On the meanwhile, we are just learning our lesson because of past failures; our failures, nobody else to blame, thats the sucky part.

Speak for yourself.

I actually created a bunch of robots and gave them many abilities - the ability to kill, be nice etc etc and then laid down a book of rules that they all had to abide by. One of these robots was psychotic - something he didn't choose to be, and so failed to upkeep a law that many of the others could keep without an issue.

If for instance I was god and gave a law to mankind prohibiting sex. The problem with such a law is that it doesn't work on any level of equality. A 93 year old can obey that law with ease, without even thinking about it.. A hormonal 15 year old will have an impossible time of it - because of the way he had been programmed.

Ultimately the blame has to lie with the creator.

But why bother with a test of people that you know wont act, think or say anything right in the first place? Why not just create a heaven full of decent sheep which is exactly what the outcome is going to be anyway? Why create horseshit before the horse?



Speak for yourself.

I actually created a bunch of robots and gave them many abilities - the ability to kill, be nice etc etc and then laid down a book of rules that they all had to abide by. One of these robots was psychotic - something he didn't choose to be, and so failed to upkeep a law that many of the others could keep without an issue.

If for instance I was god and gave a law to mankind prohibiting sex. The problem with such a law is that it doesn't work on any level of equality. A 93 year old can obey that law with ease, without even thinking about it.. A hormonal 15 year old will have an impossible time of it - because of the way he had been programmed.

Ultimately the blame has to lie with the creator.If God created you that is...

The devil spread his seed in the world.

Ultimately God made everything, but if you were only created inside that everything and not as a critical step of God Himself, then what are you?

The analogy of the robots is false. God didn't want a robot, God wouldn't love a robot, it's not the skin and flesh that God loves, He loves you and you are no robot, and can never be.

What if you wouldn't find your way if the body was different, if you didn't have those faults, if you were Perfect? Perhaps life is a step in our making? So how can you complain? I think because you speak out of dumbness and doubt - it's not the state you should preffer, when you are angry you make mistakes, when you doubt you trigger falsity. A little bit of anger can be good, a little bit of doubt can be good, but if you overdo it then you are bound for accident.

Oh, and you probably won't come nearer the truth here on sciforums, don't make the mistake of thinking that the best answer possible will come from here, you stand on a mountain passing your question, thinking that the mere amount of people will be able to answer it properly, but look to the one individual and ask him. Honestly. You will find that the truth isn't in numbers.

If God created you that is...

The devil spread his seed in the world.


What a sly dog that devil is. Popped himself into existence with the express purpose of seeding the world with evil/possessing people and turning them evil etc etc.

Oh if only there was some being that existed that could do something about it!!!

God didn't want a robot, God wouldn't love a robot

The good folk get to spend an eternity worshipping this being. Didn't want robots indeed :bugeye:

What a sly dog that devil is. Popped himself into existence with the express purpose of seeding the world with evil/possessing people and turning them evil etc etc.

Oh if only there was some being that existed that could do something about it!!!They have a purpouse though. Everything must have.

-Even if they have blinded themselves for it-

The good folk get to spend an eternity worshipping this being. Didn't want robots indeed :bugeye:That they are robots are your oppinion, you don't see what is happening behind the surface. You don't see backstage. As I said, it isn't the robots that matter.

I see your concerns, I understand, but there is a need to see farther than our limited perspective. Try to understand existence and how it works, and you will go mad; the thing is a brain the size of the Universe is needed to understand it, are you aware of that? of our tiny little arrogant brains? Trying to understand something obviously outside our understanding is kinda idiotic...

There is free will, we all love free will don´t we? Then why blame god on the evil of the world? free will is a both side coin. Ask God for free will, and you will get a dualist world with good and evil.

People would like a world without evil, without death, without unsatisfactory circumstances; can´t you see the stupidity in that? If there was no death, everything would be created and there would be nothing left to create, nothing to be born... If there was no evil, there would be no free will, and worst, everybody would be "good and loving" but nobody would realize what is good; in fact if everyone would be "good and loving" then people would create divisions on who is better than who, and there would be no evil, but good, and more good. The people who would be "more good", would believe that the people who are "less good", are evil, and they would blame God for that.
What the hell? I don´t know why people are always arguing for the way things are, when you are responsable for your happiness and your world view. You are arguing for the way things are, and if there was an "all loving world" you would be arguing there too...
It is your mind that creates unsatisfactory circumstances, and only you are responsible for your inner-feelings that you share with the world.

They have a purpouse though. Everything must have.

So us children of satan and satan himself have been created simply to fill a needed purpose - that purpose also created by god. Might I ask what that purpose is?

That they are robots are your oppinion, you don't see what is happening behind the surface. You don't see backstage.

I don't see an argument against us being robots given your last statement - that we were created, and had to be created to fulfill a purpose - we're needed merely to function as a purpose in the greater scheme of things, i.e we're robots.

I understand, but there is a need to see farther than our limited perspective.

This excuse rears it's head when the person saying it realises that everything we actually know is ridiculous and makes this god look more like an ass than anything else. Of course every single human is looking at it from a human perspective and can't ever do anything else, so any statement made is redundant, (considering your argument).

There is free will, we all love free will don´t we?

I disagree completely. You are a product of your genetics and environment, you don't really make choices. Say I put 5 pens on the table: red, green, blue, orange and black. You believe when I ask you to choose one that you're choosing, but you need to recognise and look at why you made the 'choice'. Was it really a free choice or is it because, for whatever reason, you are drawn to the colour blue - and thus would 'choose' it every time?

The same holds true in all aspects of life.. You don't choose to like the taste of bacon, you don't choose for your ears to like the sound of The Beatles, you don't choose to like women with large breasts and blonde hair - these are all products of your genetics and environment.

Free will? Not really.

Then why blame god on the evil of the world?

For the same reason you'd blame an author for a messed up book. Let's look at the 'facts'. (biblical/environmental):

1) Man was created in an environment that apparently lacked this evil - even death. But wait.. how did an evil snake get in there? How did an evil snake get the ability to talk?

2) So there's an evil snake that somehow sneaked it's way into a perfect garden. It's not an issue right, man will know he's evil! But wait.. man was given no understanding of good or evil... That could prove to be slightly problematic. If this poor guy has no understanding of good or evil how can he ascertain that god is good and the snake is evil?

3) So there's this evil snake that sneaked it's way into a perfect garden, a man that doesn't understand good and evil and wait! There's a tree that somehow found it's way there that will corrupt mankind forever if he eats from it.

4) Is god slacking? Is he not paying attention? What's going on? Evil snakes, stupid people and a tree that must be eaten from if man is to ever learn that he must not eat from it.

5) All of this could have been avoided if man could tell the difference between good and evil, god had have put up some sensors to detect if an evil entity sneaked it's way into the garden with the express purpose of corrupting man that had no understanding of good or evil, and there wasn't some silly tree that some snake was going to use to corrupt mankind slap bang in the middle of a place where mankind that didn't understand good and evil just so happened to reside.

So ultimately one guy and girl that didn't know good and evil supposedly made a mistake which is fine - give them a 10 year prison sentence and 100 years for the snake. But no.. instead he curses them and yes.. every other human ever to live like it's my fault that Adam and Eve did wrong. Hell, the very second we were born we were guilty. It's not like "let's wait 20 years and see what this human gets upto", no.. you're instantly a sinner before you're even old enough to poo.

Who's to blame? Hmmm...

People would like a world without evil, without death, without unsatisfactory circumstances; can´t you see the stupidity in that?

Certainly, so why bother creating a heaven? Is god an idiot?

What the hell? I don´t know why people are always arguing for the way things are, when you are responsable for your happiness and your world view. You are arguing for the way things are, and if there was an "all loving world" you would be arguing there too...

I don't mind death and evil and whatnot, I am merely pointing out to you who is to blame for it being that way. Humans most certainly did not make it evil etc - as you state in your own post now, god had to do it because apparently that's the only way he could.

Being in agreement with The God of the Bible is the correct 'place' to be.

Not at all.
If Yahweh ordered me to kill and slaughter on his behalf I would definetely not do it.
Study the history of Yahweh and you will find he was simply one of many,many Gods worshipped by the Canannites before he was selected by the bronze age hebrew priesthood as their "one true God".
This is historical fact that even hebrew biblical scholars today will concur with.

http://www.amazon.com/Early-History-God-Biblical-Resource/dp/080283972X

God is God ..and Yahweh is simply one group of peoples "take on God"
Some good fatherly qualities I will admit but afflicted with too many negative ones..pettiness,jelaousy, often irrational violent outbursts,rascist,etc.
These do not reflect Gods' true nature.
Isis (Aset) for instance has many endearing qualities that better reflect what God is than Yahweh. Of all of her mythology I know of no blood soaked or violent actions attributed to her.

I will now rest in silence...

you cant blame mans disruptive reign on god after all freewill is the life that we know and a pure god cant deny his promise

Dang it, I went off topic.

If you want to talk about why the heck a god would want to not be seen or heard go here...
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1502797#post1502797

Sorry if this is a rehash...I have not been on in two years...

it hasn't been that long, it's only about a year mind you thats long enough, where were you.

Ah, the image of heaven..

If that's the eventual outcome anyway - no death, disease etc etc why not just go straight to that part and save all the f****** around?



indeed - why don't you just go straight to that part

:scratchin:

why don't you just go straight to that part


Yeah uhhh... that's what I was asking.

A new lg tactic? Repeat the last guys question instead of actually answering it? Way to go numbnuts.

Yeah uhhh... that's what I was asking.

A new lg tactic? Repeat the last guys question instead of actually answering it? Way to go numbnuts.

ironically, your use of a specific ad hom is a clear indication why the road to heaven is described the way it is

;)

There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that.I generally stay out of this hall because I am an atheist like you. This is the one hall in the entire SciForums academy where we allow religionists to speak freely. Without demanding the empirical evidence to support their theories, which seem not to be falsifiable anyway. Without hounding them for the extraordinary substantiation we need in order to have an obligation to take their extraordinary assertions seriously. Without lecturing them about Occam's Razor.

Nonetheless, as a scientist I have to take exception to this one assertion of yours. Jung disagrees with you on what we "know deep inside." Our primitive midbrains feed instincts to us that often compete with the reasoning and learning in our uniquely massive forebrains. One type of instinct is what he calls the "archetype," a motif that occurs spontaneously in almost all human cultures in almost all eras. The legend of the man who rises up from the dead, the search for the city that was lost under the sea, the recognition of dogs as second-class members of the community, the painful and humiliating rites of passage that children are put through as if it will help prepare them for adult life.

There are many possible explanations for each of these individual instincts. It may have been a survival trait at one time, so only the people who had it survived to reproduce. It may have been a random mutation that was passed through a genetic bottleneck. Some are not too hard to figure out, e.g. many rites of passage really do have a semblance of training for real life; without the steppingstone of the mixed human-dog pack we might never have learned to live in harmony with people outside our own family. Others are hopelessly unfathomable. But regardless, these are the instincts that virtually all of us are born with.

A religion is merely a collection of archetypes. Belief in the supernatural, in a creature or creatures more powerful than us, more powerful than the entire observable universe, is one of those archetypes. It indeed occurs in all cultures in all eras.

So if you're talking about what we "know deep inside," it's gods and religion. Archetypes are the engine that powers religion. And what power: we all "know" that it's true, by instinct!

I generally stay out of this hall because I am an atheist like you. This is the one hall in the entire SciForums academy where we allow religionists to speak freely. Without demanding the empirical evidence to support their theories, which seem not to be falsifiable anyway. Without hounding them for the extraordinary substantiation we need in order to have an obligation to take their extraordinary assertions seriously. Without lecturing them about Occam's Razor.

Nonetheless, as a scientist I have to take exception to this one assertion of yours. Jung disagrees with you on what we "know deep inside."

interesting how you open up with an assertion about how religion is one of those things that is more or less subjective, and some how beneath you .... and then let rip with a hodge podge amalgamation (sorry, "soft science") of physiology and Jung ....

ironically, your use of a specific ad hom....

Yes, yes, yes, build a bridge.

You going to answer the question?

Yes, yes, yes, build a bridge.

You going to answer the question?

I think I did already
;)

You think wrong.

interesting how you open up with an assertion about how religion is one of those things that is more or less subjective, and some how beneath you .... and then let rip with a hodge podge amalgamation (sorry, "soft science") of physiology and Jung ....We have to choose our language to maximize our ability to communicate with specific people. That's why the individual astrologers, faith healers, and voodoo medicine men who know full well that astrology, faith healing and voodoo are woo-woo nonetheless perform their feats of psychotherapy and use of the placebo effect using the language of that type of woo-woo. Because they know it will connect with their clients.

I wasn't speaking to you so I didn't choose language that would open a line of communication with you. I was speaking to Micholi and I chose language which I figured had a good chance of achieving rapport with Micholi. When I want to achieve rapport with religionists I will talk about almost anything except religion, which is why I rarely post here. I felt that it was worth making an exception because I thought Micholi was expressing a misconception, rather than disagreement. You folks get enough badgering by scientists that you don't need to be badgered in error. :)

You think you are ontop of a mountain looking down at all others, but you have inherent faults too, it is these faults that you have to struggle with. People are born into this world and has to struggle too, it is not a perfect world, but even crippled ones find joy in their life, the world is unique in that it provides us with the tools to achieve something for ourselves, to improve things, all these things had to be, the world had to be imperfect for us to improve it, I'm more worried about your ignorance than I am of any crippled ones.Tell that to a child who was molested their entire life just before their molester plunges their head under some water and they drown at the age of 12.

If you consider it condescending of me to take a view that I am looking "down" on such sick individuals then I will live with your worry.

Do I know people born with some crippling disease that have lived full lives? Yes. Is that the same as a child molested their entire life and murdered at the age of 12. No.

Completely different scenarios.

Michael

You see Michael; you are the way you are because of every single circumstance you have encountered in your life, you have learned your lessons.
On the other hand, the world cannot be the utopia you are talking about, it is impossible. There world is perfect as it is, with injustice and all; because just because of the fact that there is injustice, you know what justice is; just because the fact that there is evil, you know what good is, and just because there is death, there is also life.
What do you want? That death ceases to exist? Then birth would be ceased to exist as well...

We tend to blame God for our misfortunes, and even say that there isn’t a God because he is supposed to be good, and you don’t see it. But it is right in front of you; it is a matter of perspective. It is a lie what people say about if you don’t believe in God you are going to hell; you are actually in the same position of a religious person right now. For example, Nietzchefan here is one of the people who make more fun about God and the concept people give Him, at the same time, I see he is one of the most religious persons there are on this forum, he likes to have fun, to make jokes, to laugh… there is something very spiritual about laughter, you don’t see laughing dogs very often do you? Laughing is a human thing, and it is very religious; even if you don’t “believe in a God”.

Everything is supposed to be as it is right now, because that is the way things work; we could never imagine the bigger picture, we are like skin cells of a higher organism that claim injustice because some skin cells are unfortunate.

And the Bible… don´t get me started about the Bible, if you don´t believe in the God of the Bible, that is ok; I don´t.I am very happy for the struggle. I think humans need the struggle - to reach their potential, just as you have written.

That's a lot different than a child molested their entire life a murdered at the age of 12. A God who can do anything could have made universe where such an event couldn't even be a possibility. It couldn't happen. It does happen and so that says something about the nature of God.

The only other satisfactory explaintion is that you Wisdom_Seeker are the only sentient being here. We're all here for you and will end when you die. This whole universe was made just for you, which for God is easy peasy.

Michael

That is the eventual outcome, only if you earned it with your actions, words and most importantly: thoughts. What does a child who was never loved, never spoken to, never hugged, who never communicated with other humans and was kept locked in a closet their entire life, never let out to see the sun but only at night to be molested - for their entire life, forced to eat and live in shit, going to learn just before they are murdered at the ripe old age of 12?

We have to choose our language to maximize our ability to communicate with specific people. That's why the individual astrologers, faith healers, and voodoo medicine men who know full well that astrology, faith healing and voodoo are woo-woo nonetheless perform their feats of psychotherapy and use of the placebo effect using the language of that type of woo-woo. Because they know it will connect with their clients.

I wasn't speaking to you so I didn't choose language that would open a line of communication with you. I was speaking to Micholi and I chose language which I figured had a good chance of achieving rapport with Micholi. When I want to achieve rapport with religionists I will talk about almost anything except religion, which is why I rarely post here. I felt that it was worth making an exception because I thought Micholi was expressing a misconception, rather than disagreement. You folks get enough badgering by scientists that you don't need to be badgered in error. :)



being free from contradictions is not inherent to clear communication?

What does a child who was never loved, never spoken to, never hugged, who never communicated with other humans and was kept locked in a closet their entire life, never let out to see the sun but only at night to be molested - for their entire life, forced to eat and live in shit, going to learn just before they are murdered at the ripe old age of 12?

I can see your concern, and I can relate to your thoughts. But I happen to believe in karma and that makes my perspective different.

The person who causes that suffering to a child will have to suffer the same account because that is the law of cause and effect. So in order to have this type of life, it only means that the child caused that suffering in the past, which was his Karma.
I know it sound harsh, but it is like that, it is the only justice there is; karma is hope for justice. If you assaulted a person in a past life, you are assaulted the same way in this life; you cannot blame the person who assaulted you, because you were meant to live that due to your past karma.

Like for example Hitler, he did not pay for all the suffering he caused in his life and he will have to pay for that. It is not hell were he is going, although you can call hell what he will have to live in order to pay for what he did. I believe that he will have to be born many times in unsatisfactory circumstances so he suffers for all the suffering he caused; up to the last tear he provoked with his actions.

If that child you described was Hitler in a past life; would you think that is unfair? It would not be unfair because it would just be karma collecting the suffering debts. As a matter of fact, if the child was born in those circumstances, you can be certain that he was paying for his karma.

This doesn’t mean that you have to just sit there and watch all the suffering because “it is karma”; that is not what I’m saying. But if you are able to help someone who is suffering, you can help the person to resolve the issues and that would be good karma that you are collecting for the future. So take a day in another life that you would be suffering, someone will come and give you a hand, just as you did in a previous life; even if you don’t know that it is your karma, that person helped you because that was what you did sometime in the past.

I'm Sorry...there is.

It's true, I'd love to believe otherwise, I'd love for there to be a heaven where I go and be with my daughter when our times come. But that won't happen...why? For so many reasons.

The birth of deformed babies. This is odd, but it is the number one reason I believe there to be no god. If he doesn't atleast have to power to protect children, what does he have?

Child sex abuse from within the church. Do I really need to ask how this so called "God" could ever allow such a thing to happen? Cleary it is another display of how there is no god.

Religion causes war and has been adapted for countless centuries as a means of justifying and carry out wars. History proves that ultimately, these wars were carried out for the purpose of wealth.

There just is no god; we all know it deep inside somewhere, but many of us, by no fault of our own, choose to believe because it gives us a direction, or it brings a sense of community to us, and many of us need that. Often we are taught by our loving and trusting parents to believe in god, to attend church and such. That too is a form of idealism.

You know that "feeling" you get in church? The one where people start crying and putting their hands in the air, and sing, and are overcome with the spirit of the lord, as they say. Well, you can get that feeling from many other outlets in life. Some good, some bad. They are all a bit extreme in my opinion.

I will add more reasons to accept the truth as I have the time to.

You are incorrect. God does exist and Christianity is the religion He accepts.
God is allowing Satan and his devils (disembodied evil spirits) to test men to see if they will do evil or do good, to find out who will go to hell and who will become an angel of God and go to heaven. Because men choose, in most cases to do evil, punishment comes upon men for that evil. It is this punishment for sin that causes the war, deformed babies and the like.
Satan hates men and wants them to disobey God and go to hell like he is going to do. The devils have telepathic contact to the minds of men to deceive them and tempt them to disobey God and do evil. Because of sin, God will withdraw his hand of protection and allow the devil to cause the trouble, such as war and deformed babies and the like.
The true teachings of God and how He wants men to live are in the King James version bible. It is men disobeying these teachings that is sin.

If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and saviour and try to not sin, then your sins will be forgiven. [Must read the New Testament to obey His teachings if Jesus really is your Lord.]

You are incorrect. God does exist and Christianity is the religion He accepts.
God is allowing Satan and his devils (disembodied evil spirits) to test men to see if they will do evil or do good, to find out who will go to hell and who will become an angel of God and go to heaven. Because men choose, in most cases to do evil, punishment comes upon men for that evil. It is this punishment for sin that causes the war, deformed babies and the like.
Satan hates men and wants them to disobey God and go to hell like he is going to do. The devils have telepathic contact to the minds of men to deceive them and tempt them to disobey God and do evil. Because of sin, God will withdraw his hand of protection and allow the devil to cause the trouble, such as war and deformed babies and the like.
The true teachings of God and how He wants men to live are in the King James version bible. It is men disobeying these teachings that is sin.

If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and saviour and try to not sin, then your sins will be forgiven. [Must read the New Testament to obey His teachings if Jesus really is your Lord.]

So you are actually saying that if a woman has a deformed baby she brought it on herself ? That it is her punishment from God for being evil ?
REALLY !? Please dont confirm this, i dont want to get an infraction.. :mad:

"If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and saviour and try to not sin, then your sins will be forgiven."
You hypocrit !

So you are actually saying that if a woman has a deformed baby she brought it on herself ? That it is her punishment from God for being evil ?
REALLY !? Please dont confirm this, i dont want to get an infraction.. :mad:

"If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and saviour and try to not sin, then your sins will be forgiven."
You hypocrit !

Not necessarily her. The punishment can go back to the 3rd or fourth generation.
Children are the work of people's hands. Obey God and He blesses the work of your hands, disobey Him and He curses the work of your hands.

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

When someone becomes a Christian, sins are forgiven and the cycle is broken.


Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Hey, He gives people every breath they take, prepared every molecule of food they ate, just for them, and they have the audacity to not believe He exists at all, or worship another false god, or disobey him.!!!
Think about it. Change your perspective.

Hey, He gives people every breath they take, prepared every molecule of food they ate, just for them
Supposition.

Not necessarily her. The punishment can go back to the 3rd or fourth generation.
Children are the work of people's hands. Obey God and He blesses the work of your hands, disobey Him and He curses the work of your hands.

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

When someone becomes a Christian, sins are forgiven and the cycle is broken.


Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Hey, He gives people every breath they take, prepared every molecule of food they ate, just for them, and they have the audacity to not believe He exists at all, or worship another false god, or disobey him.!!!
Think about it. Change your perspective.

Never mind, youre not even worth getting an infraction over.
What the hell are you doing at a science forum !? Go find your extremist friends at some religious forum..

God is allowing Satan and his devils (disembodied evil spirits) to test men to see if they will do evil or do good, to find out who will go to hell and who will become an angel of God and go to heaven. Because men choose, in most cases to do evil, punishment comes upon men for that evil. It is this punishment for sin that causes the war, deformed babies and the like.
Satan hates men and wants them to disobey God and go to hell like he is going to do. The devils have telepathic contact to the minds of men to deceive them and tempt them to disobey God and do evil. Because of sin, God will withdraw his hand of protection and allow the devil to cause the trouble, such as war and deformed babies and the like.
The true teachings of God and how He wants men to live are in the King James version bible. It is men disobeying these teachings that is sin.

If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and saviour and try to not sin, then your sins will be forgiven. [Must read the New Testament to obey His teachings if Jesus really is your Lord.]


-If a deity is willing to stop evil but unable, he/she is not omnipotent.

-If a deity is able to stop evil but unwilling, he/she is not benevolent.

Let's hear a logical rational response to that.

Why the fuck would anyone want to follow a god that would send his supposedly 'greatest creation' (a creation he ordered his angels to worship) to spend an eternity in hell if they don't accept him/jesus/whatever?
That god sounds like a petty, spoiled, vindictive, bratty little girl.

-If a deity is willing to stop evil but unable, he/she is not omnipotent.

-If a deity is able to stop evil but unwilling, he/she is not benevolent.

Let's hear a logical rational response to that.

Why the fuck would anyone want to follow a god that would send his supposedly 'greatest creation' (a creation he ordered his angels to worship) to spend an eternity in hell if they don't accept him/jesus/whatever?
That god sounds like a petty, spoiled, vindictive, bratty little girl.

:bravo:

And read my user title ghost7584 !

The birth of deformed babies is caused by bad karma....I wish I could prove this, because it's so true...

It's actually to do with genetics. How many more times does science need to outwit naive religious assertions?

Also it should be noted that Stalin (an atheist) killed over 20 million people...that's more than 6 times all religious wars combined...

I am pretty sure you are wrong on that, but even if you are right, what if all religious wars had the same technology as Stalin? The scales would tip the other way, obviously.

And understand the difference in killing in the name of religion and killing in the name of atheism. I can not even think of one killing in the name of atheism.

Yeah exactly emphasizing my point, feelings really have no relation to the truth...

Then how come religion/god exists purely because of human feelings. Absolutely nothing as far as evidence goes.

It's actually to do with genetics. How many more times does science need to outwit naive religious assertions?

Genetics is caused by karma...obviously the reason you can't understand this is because you refuse to


I am pretty sure you are wrong on that, but even if you are right, what if all religious wars had the same technology as Stalin? The scales would tip the other way, obviously.

And understand the difference in killing in the name of religion and killing in the name of atheism. I can not even think of one killing in the name of atheism.
Sure lots of have killed in the name of atheism, just go look it up, imagine if they had the same technology? It probably wouldn't have even matter much at all...imagine if people really did follow Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna, things would be a lot better


Then how come religion/god exists purely because of human feelings. Absolutely nothing as far as evidence goes.
Well the reason there is no evidence is because nothing can be considered as evidence, atheists try all tactics imaginable to escape evidence in order to preserve the atheistic faith-based belief system...any evidence is automatically a "god of the gaps" case closed to an atheist

Also, it's just like I said, the truth has no relation to feelings, if all religion is true it doesn't matter if you feel it's true, if religion is false it also doesn't matter what you feel...

The best arguement in favor of the atheist is us...a bunch of humans running around each claiming to worship the same God and killing each other in his name. I don't know any self respecting God would want to claim us.

The best arguement in favor of the atheist is us...a bunch of humans running around each claiming to worship the same God and killing each other in his name. I don't know any self respecting God would want to claim us.

That's not an argument in favor of atheism...religious wars have no relation to the existence or non-existence of God at all...

Also if anyone would actually look up the statistics religious wars make up a very very small percentage of wars and have small death tolls in comparison to non-religious wars...

Well, i am not one to count wars as there have been many. But when you look at the long term, for how many years did the Catholic church conduct warfare against heritics...more than a thousand years. And during that time few religious wars were proclaimed. Look at the Jewish, Palestine - Christian conflict that has lasted more than a century and still continues to this very moment. Rarely are these delcared wars, these are wars of ideas...worse yet wars of belief...belief that God sets are certian group apart as better than the rest. And that justifies any inconvenient teachings to the contrary.

So my question to all religious zelots is thus, how many groups is God going to set aside as special and privilaged? And how many is he going to give a pass/exemptions on following his rules? Or could it be that there are multiple Gods picking their own special groups of humans and setting them at war with their brothers?

Well, i am not one to count wars as there have been many. But when you look at the long term, for how many years did the Catholic church conduct warfare against heritics...more than a thousand years. And during that time few religious wars were proclaimed. Look at the Jewish, Palestine - Christian conflict that has lasted more than a century and still continues to this very moment. Rarely are these delcared wars, these are wars of ideas...worse yet wars of belief...belief that God sets are certian group apart as better than the rest. And that justifies any inconvenient teachings to the contrary.

So how does this favor atheism? It doesn't show that God doesn't exist or does exist, it's like saying if scientists are debating which theory is true and have different ideas and conflicts that means that all the theories are false...it doesn't make any sense....

Here's the top 10 wars by death toll:
60,000,000-72,000,000 World War II Asia, Europe, Africa, Pacific 1939 1945 World War II casualties
40,000,000 Three Kingdoms War China 184 280 Ancient warfare
36,000,000 An Shi Rebellion China 756 763 Medieval warfare
30,000,000-60,000,000 Mongol Conquests Asia, Europe, Middle East 1207 1279 Mongol invasions and Tatar invasions
25,000,000 Manchu conquest of Ming Dynasty China 1616 1644 Qing Dynasty
20,000,000-50,000,000 Taiping Rebellion China 1851 1864 Dungan revolt
20,000,000 Second Sino-Japanese War China 1931 1945
15,000,000-66,000,000 World War I. (High estimate includes Spanish flu deaths) Europe 1914 1918 World War I casualties
10,000,000 Warring States Era China BC475 BC221 List of conflicts in Asia
7,000,000-20,000,000 Conquests of Timur the Lame Middle East, India, Asia, Russia 1369 1405 List of wars in the Muslim world[1]

Hmm...NONE of these wars are religious wars...

Now I persponally believe in God. But I have to tell you all this foolishness exercised by radicals of Christianity, Islam and Judaism make me wonder sometimes if there really is a God.

Now I persponally believe in God. But I have to tell you all this foolishness exercised by radicals of Christianity, Islam and Judaism make me wonder sometimes if there really is a God.

Well my question is why would this make you wonder? Doesn't the Bible and almost all religious texts describe the world as place of fools, sinners, evil, etc...?

By the way Vital One, the number of deaths is immaterial to the argument over the existence of God. Why would a God set up three different religions and give them similar rules and set them at each others throats?

By the way Vital One, the number of deaths is immaterial to the argument over the existence of God. Why would a God set up three different religions and give them similar rules and set them at each others throats?

See my previous post...

Sure lots of have killed in the name of atheism, just go look it up, Such as?

You can´t blame God for the injustice in the World, you can´t blame God for Religions, and you can´t blame him for the stupidity of men. God is love and life and only that, all religions teach that, and fanatics don´t really follow religions, they just want to hurt people.

-If a deity is willing to stop evil but unable, he/she is not omnipotent.

-If a deity is able to stop evil but unwilling, he/she is not benevolent.

Let's hear a logical rational response to that.

Why the fuck would anyone want to follow a god that would send his supposedly 'greatest creation' (a creation he ordered his angels to worship) to spend an eternity in hell if they don't accept him/jesus/whatever?
That god sounds like a petty, spoiled, vindictive, bratty little girl.

It is a test. You don't get test results if you stop the test in the middle of it. He will stop it at the time of the end when Jesus comes back with an army of angels (ufo aliens) to take over the world by force and destroy the wicked at the battle of armageddon.
There is a parable that Jesus taught that answers your question:

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Matthew 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Matthew 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Matthew 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So my question to all religious zelots is thus, how many groups is God going to set aside as special and privilaged? And how many is he going to give a pass/exemptions on following his rules? Or could it be that there are multiple Gods picking their own special groups of humans and setting them at war with their brothers?

The real born again Christians follow the teachings of Christ in the bible. Just because a church calls itself Christian that does not mean it is Christian.
Real Christians did not do those wars and inquisitions.
Jesus taught:
Love your neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you would have them do to you.

False churches (such as those that cause wars and have inquisitions) don't follow those teachings of Christ.

Religion is big bussiness. Religious con artists can have an easy life and make big money off of people that they con.
Jesus said there would be MANY false Christs and false prophets and they would deceive MANY. It is happening the way the bible said it would happen.

Genetics is caused by karma...obviously the reason you can't understand this is because you refuse to

I don't understand it because there is no evidence, no logical connection and plain stupid and wrong.


Sure lots of have killed in the name of atheism, just go look it up,

I can't find any. But I'm not short of matches when I search for people who were killed in the name of religion. Even in my own city in the united kingdom, people get killed because of the catholic / protestant divide.

imagine if they had the same technology?

Who are we talking about? I can't find any.

It probably wouldn't have even matter much at all...imagine if people really did follow Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna, things would be a lot better

Why is Mohammad missing from that? ;)

And anyway, following Jesus is no help towards peace. Take a look at the South in the USA. You won't find a place that claims Jesus as their savior more than those folks, and they would probably be the first to vote for a war (any war).

Well the reason there is no evidence is because nothing can be considered as evidence

This makes you a liar. If evidence existed for the supernatural or god then you would recognize it as evidence and therefore shout it from the hills.

atheists try all tactics imaginable to escape evidence in order to preserve the atheistic faith-based belief system...any evidence is automatically a "god of the gaps" case closed to an atheist

You underestimate the atheist. If there really was any good evidence for something supernatural, then it would not be discredited automatically. Even if they did, then it wouldn't matter what atheists think, because science would be there to interpret the evidence. However, sadly for the delusional, any 'evidence' for the supernatural is always anecdotal.

Also, it's just like I said, the truth has no relation to feelings, if all religion is true it doesn't matter if you feel it's true, if religion is false it also doesn't matter what you feel...

But when you make claims that are metaphysical, you are more likely to be wrong than right by a factor of... a very long number to one.

I don't understand it because there is no evidence, no logical connection and plain stupid and wrong.

That was not what Jesus said...

It is a test. You don't get test results if you stop the test in the middle of it.

The only valid reason for a 'test' is when one doesn't know the outcome.

He will stop it at the time of the end when Jesus comes back with an army of angels (ufo aliens)

Lol, the shit people believe.. :shrug:

[/yawn] Hasn't this thread been super-done already?

[/yawn] Hasn't this thread been super-done already?

But we still have no proof of God´s existence or non-existence. And since this site is mostly about facts, it is kinda difficult to draw a conclusion.

For some people like me, the proof of God is in the lotus flower, and our ability to love. But for some people, the lotus flower is just a plant, and love is just an emotion triggered by inner-chemicals from our brain.

So, this thread is meant to be over-done and re-opened, and super-done to non-stopping dimensions.

If only people would realize that the reason they post in this sort of threads is because they are not aware of the truth; and these same people that are un-aware of the truth keep saying they have it all figured out.

Where do I fit in? I guess I´m just a seeker who knows that we don´t know. And the reason that we keep asking and posting, is with the hope of someone saying something that clears our mind from doubt a little bit.

Realizing it is all useless, has lead me so far to one conclusion; asking questions is a game of the ego, and answers are the food of the ego. The real answer is that which don´t explain shit, ´cause right then, your ego didn´t get the food it wanted, and starts loosing power on yourself...

That was not what Jesus said...

What difference does that make to me? Jesus is a fictional character who had people writing his lines through decades of mythical story telling.

For some people like me, the proof of God is in the lotus flower, and our ability to love.

Namby pamby bullcrap.

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin,
Who made the sharks, He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
AMEN.

All Things Dull and Ugly - Monty Python.

If only people would realize that the reason they post in this sort of threads is because they are not aware of the truth; and these same people that are un-aware of the truth keep saying they have it all figured out.

So, in other words.. you? Or wait, are you exempt from your own statement and really are aware of the "truth"? Or.. are you in the same boat as everyone else, (not aware of the truth), and thus there's no point in listening to anything you say?

So, in other words.. you? Or wait, are you exempt from your own statement and really are aware of the "truth"? Or.. are you in the same boat as everyone else, (not aware of the truth)

You are right, I´m not aware of the truth; and if I would be, I wouldn´t be able to put it in words any way...

Notice the beggining of the "Tao Te King":
"The Dao that can be named, is not the eternal Dao."

Meaning: Stop reading right there, ´cause there are no written or spoken answers for the eternal TRUTH.

and thus there's no point in listening to anything you say?

Right again, although I´m not the fool that says I know the answers.

My advice: don´t listen to a word I say, if it doesn´t match with your truth; everyone is entitled to a different perception of the truth. The path is one for each person, and I don´t post here for knowledgeable answers; I post so I can see the response from people and see how it affects my thoughts... That way is just another way to get to know myself better; that is the path I´m talking about.

I´m sorry to burst your bubble KennyJC, but the fact that you are alive is a divine miracle; and it shows that existence made you worthy of being here in human form. You have a purpose in this life that noone else can perform, otherwise you wouldn´t be here...

Right again, although I´m not the fool that says I know the answers.


"I´m just a seeker who knows that we don´t know"

That is a statement of truth. It is an instance of you declaring that you know what the truth, or answer, is - and an all encompassing statement at that. You go on to state that:

"The real answer.."

Again making a declaration that you know 'the truth'/the answer.

Therefore you are the fool.

"I´m just a seeker who knows that we don´t know"

That is a statement of truth. It is an instance of you declaring that you know what the truth, or answer, is - and an all encompassing statement at that. You go on to state that:

"The real answer.."

Again making a declaration that you know 'the truth'/the answer.

Therefore you are the fool.

ok then, I´m a fool :p

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin,
Who made the sharks, He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
AMEN.

All Things Dull and Ugly - Monty Python.
Yeah exactly, finally someone understands....except God is never in contact with this material nature, he is the source of all, the source of the highest happiness...

Yeah exactly, finally someone understands....except God is never in contact with this material nature, he is the source of all, the source of the highest happiness...

"That which is above is like that which is below..." - Hermes Trismegistus (aka Thot the Atlantean)

"Let thy kingdom come..." - Jesus

If you don´t accept & enjoy life in its totality; then you are in denial of the true nature of God.

The only valid reason for a 'test' is when one doesn't know the outcome.


Stop and think a moment. In order to know what is going to happen, you need to allow it to happen.
God gives people choices, but He knows already what choices they will make.
In order to know that He must allow it to happen, to allow them to make the choices.
The test must be conducted to its end point.

What difference does that make to me? Jesus is a fictional character who had people writing his lines through decades of mythical story telling.


Flavius Josephus, first century Jewish historian, wrote of Jesus as a real historical figure. [Josephus was not a Christian.]

http://www.carm.org/questions/Josephus.htm
Josephus, first century Jewish historian wrote about Jesus. The life of Jesus is real recorded history.

Flavius Josephus, first century Jewish historian, wrote of Jesus as a real historical figure. [Josephus was not a Christian.]

http://www.carm.org/questions/Josephus.htm
Josephus, first century Jewish historian wrote about Jesus. The life of Jesus is real recorded history.

For the last time, there is no historical person who was resurrected or carried out any of the other 'miracles' in the bible.

I hate to state the obvious, but people seem to lack common sense and take this Jesus guys miracles as a given.

Yeah exactly, finally someone understands....except God is never in contact with this material nature, he is the source of all, the source of the highest happiness...

But if god created material nature, then you have just contradicted yourself? He created a life were the food chain requires sentient creatures being eaten alive. There is no way anybody can justify this as a 'good' god.

Stop and think a moment. In order to know what is going to happen, you need to allow it to happen.


Utter nonsense.

I have a hot cup of tea sitting right next to me. I know that if I pour it on my head the outcome is going to be a burnt head. I don't need to allow it to happen to know what would happen... and I'm not even omniscient.

To prevent the burning of my head I'm not going to allow it to happen - because I care about my head. god on the other hand has always known that billions of people are going to burn - no, not a slight head burn, but burn for eternity. forever and ever and thus no question of care can ever come into it. If he cared, those destined to burn just wouldn't ever exist. You wouldn't even have earth and death because they're pointless to test. You'd just have a heaven, eternal worship of this being, (for some bizarre reason), and that would be that.

Stop and think for a moment. :bugeye:

Utter nonsense.

I have a hot cup of tea sitting right next to me. I know that if I pour it on my head the outcome is going to be a burnt head. I don't need to allow it to happen to know what would happen... and I'm not even omniscient.


Think again.

Give the cup of tea free will, to make a real comparison to people.
The cup of tea might decide to empty itself before you pour it on your head. So, you would not know unless you try it. If the test subject has a free will and power to use it, to do good or evil, you need to run the test to see what he will decide.

But if god created material nature, then you have just contradicted yourself? He created a life were the food chain requires sentient creatures being eaten alive. There is no way anybody can justify this as a 'good' god.

I guess the next question would be why we dress such an environment up such as the material world as the abode of enjoyment
:cool:

Think again.

Give the cup of tea free will, to make a real comparison to people.
The cup of tea might decide to empty itself before you pour it on your head. So, you would not know unless you try it. If the test subject has a free will and power to use it, to do good or evil, you need to run the test to see what he will decide.

Think again.

god is supposedly omniscient. No test needed.

Think again.

god is supposedly omniscient. No test needed.

God is a just God. He won't sentence someone to hell unless they demonstrate that they deserve it. He must allow them to demonstrate that.
On the judgement day it will be shown why they deserve it, because a test was run and they made the wrong choices.

Likewise for those that